Book Club Meets: Ambitious women and generational trauma, with Emily Henry

Two writers are competing for the chance to tell the larger-than-life story of a famous reclusive heiress. One of them is going to uncover the truth behind one of the most scandalous families of the 20th century. The thing is, heiress Margaret is giving each writer different tantalising little pieces of her story... Great Big Beautiful Life by Emily Henry was May’s Happy Place Book Club read. In this chat with Fearne, Emily explains why she’s intrigued by the idea of generational trauma affecting our day to day, and why it’s important to interrogate where your sense of ambition comes from. Is your drive coming from within, or are you trying to prove something to someone? Plus, Fearne and Emily explore why reading fiction is such a brilliant way to examine your own opinions, values, and moral tendencies through how you react to the characters. Thank you to Penguin Audio for the use of Great Big Beautiful Life audiobook, narrated by Julia Whelan. If you liked this episode of Happy Place, you might also like: Listen to Book Club Meets: Lorna Tucker https://pod.fo/e/2cf8fc Listen to Book Club Meets: Clare Leslie Hall https://pod.fo/e/2c28eb Listen to Book Club Meets: Holly Bourne https://pod.fo/e/2b5d15 Child on the line is a three-part documentary podcast series celebrating the Volunteer Counsellors of Childline, and the brave children & young people who contact the helpline service. Listen here: https://www.childonthelinepodcast.com/ Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Hi, I'm Natalie Dormer and I'm proud to be an ambassador for Childline. This year, Childline turns 40. To mark it, I've made Child on the Line, a three-part documentary podcast. We hear why children needed a helpline in 1986, how it was built against the odds and the challenges children face today, from abuse and mental health to social media and AI. Search Child on the Line and listen wherever you get your podcasts.

• 0:28Speaker 01

  There's an old saying about stories and how there are always three versions of them: yours, mine, and the truth. The guy who first said-

• 0:36Speaker 00

  Welcome to the Happy Place Book Club with me, Fern Cotton.

• 0:40Speaker 01

  We're not really supposed to take sides. We're supposed to deal in fact.

• 0:43Speaker 00

  Today, Great Big Beautiful Life by Emily Henry.

• 0:47Speaker 01

  Fact: Robert Evans, producer, studio exec, and actor who coined that catchy mantra about the truth, was married seven times. Fact: I, Alice Scott, staff writer for The Scratch, aspiring biographer, not much else, am not even officially the girlfriend of the man I've been dating for seven months. Fact: At five feet and nine inches tall, Robert Evans was the exact same height as I am. Fact: My entire life is quite possibly about to change, and instead of sprinting up the walkway to the quaint picket fence separating me from a lifelong dream, I'm sitting in my rental car, blasting air conditioning and reading the IMDb page of a man whose name

• 1:29Speaker 01

  I'd never heard three minutes ago because his quote about stories popped into my head and also because I'm stalling. I'm more excited than nervous, but there are still a great deal of nerves vibrating through me. With one last deep breath, I turn off the car and pop the door open. Immediately, the dense midday heat of a Georgia summer hits me from all sides, a familiar and deeply loved sensation that's only improved by the salty sea breeze sweeping in off the water surrounding Little Crescent Island. I double-check that I have my notebook, voice recorder, and pens, then bump the door shut and stoop to check my rapidly dampening bangs in the side mirror. I try to school my grin into an expression of neutrality.

• 2:14Speaker 01

  It's important that I play this cool. Fact: I have never played it cool in my life.

• 2:21Fearne Cotton?

  So, two writers are competing for the chance to tell the larger-than-life story of a famous reclusive heiress. The thing is, heiress Margaret is giving each writer different tantalising little pieces of her story. Oh, I love this book. I loved it so much. I have to say, I particularly love a slow-burn love story. Absolutely delicious. And, as we discuss in this chat, Emily's fans are very, very passionate about her work. So she has her own literary nickname, M Hen, which I'm here for. I'm wondering, what's my F Cots? Hasn't got the same ring to it. And you lot in the Happy Place Book Club on Instagram really do love M Hen. This is Shelby.

• 3:04Speaker 03

  Okay, I finished Great Big Beautiful Life yesterday, and I still am having the hardest time, like, putting into words how it made me feel, because it is such a beautiful book. The story of how Margaret and Alice and Hayden, how it all intertwined in the end, how it was just, it was just beyond beautiful. Probably my favourite book of the year. It's my favourite book of the year so far, probably will end up being my favourite book. Amazing, amazing book.

• 3:39Fearne Cotton?

  Your favourite book of the year, Shelby? That is so brilliant. Fran's just finished reading as well, and says, "This is the third M Hen book that I've read and loved. Definitely different from the other two, and I loved it. Caught me off guard. The characters were so surprising and touching." And Roxanne, this is the most gorgeous message from you. "I've just finished the audiobook. Julia Whelan did a great job narrating the beautiful story Emily's written. I love the message behind it all, and without giving too much away, it makes me desperately wish I could go back and record my own parents and their stories." Yeah, that is a good, good lesson learned from this book. This chat with Emily was just so much fun. There's loads about the book, but we also went off on some really cool tangents, like

• 4:21Fearne Cotton?

  the idea of picking apart who you are by looking back through the generations in your family, and also why we need to question where our need to prove ourselves is coming from.

• 4:35Speaker 04

  Hot flashes, rage crying, forgetting words mid-senten. Yeah, we know. Menopause is a lot. Midi Health gets it. That's why Midi offers virtual healthcare specially tailored to women's needs. Built for women by women. Every symptom, every stage, every question. Visit joinmidi.com to get started today. That's join M I D I dot com. Individual results and coverage varies. Check with your plan for coverage.

• 5:05Speaker 05

  Hey, we're Nick and Jack, hosts of The Best One Yet. Behind every episode, there's research, emails, spreadsheets, and our shared Google Doc, the headline hammer. With Google Workspace with Gemini, Google's AI is built right into the premium versions of tools we already use, like Gmail, Docs, and Sheets. No new tools or extra logins, just personalized AI for the way we work. That means less time on the work around the work and more time finding the stories worth talking about. Get AI tools for work. Upgrade to Google Workspace with Gemini at goo.gle/workspacewithGemini. That's goo.gle/workspacewithGemini.

• 5:38Speaker 06

  There's one thing that will forever change the way you sleep, and it's the softest 100% organic cotton bedding from Bowlin Branch. You'll fall asleep faster, wrapped in the most luxurious comfort. You'll never sleep hot again with airy blankets, cloud-like duvets, and breathable sheets. You'll experience pure comfort on night one and feel your bedding get softer with every wash. Discover the difference with 15% off your first order at bowlinbranch.com with code BUTTERY. Exclusions apply. See site for details.

• 6:11Fearne Cotton?

  Right, let's do it. Here's the show.

• 6:34Fearne Cotton?

  Hello, lovely Emily. Hello, Fern. Or M Hen, as they say. They do say that. They do.

• 6:42Speaker 07

  It's cute.

• 6:43Fearne Cotton?

  Such a good nickname.

• 6:43Speaker 07

  Yeah, it's funny. My sister-in-law has called me that for years.

• 6:47Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, really?

• 6:48Speaker 07

  Yeah, and then suddenly now there are a lot of other people calling me that, too.

• 6:51Fearne Cotton?

  Em Hen is great. What's, who's the beautiful model who's got a name like that? Emily Ratajkowski.

• 6:57Speaker 07

  Oh, yeah, Em Rata.

• 6:59Fearne Cotton?

  Yes. See, all the cool people have these abbreviations.

• 7:02Speaker 07

  That's true, me and Em Rata.

• 7:04Fearne Cotton?

  It's great. I love it. Well, look, we're so happy to chat to you today. Your gorgeous book is our Happy Place Book Club recommended book for May. And I mean, the comments have just been like, everyone's loving this book. Loads of people had already read it. People are just eating up the story, loving every minute of the romance. It is gorgeous. So first of all, thank you for writing it.

• 7:25Speaker 07

  Oh, my gosh. Thank you for choosing it for the book club. It's been really fun. And yeah, I also have been trying to not like monitor the comments too closely. But I see some of them and it's been fun and exciting seeing people, you know, talk about it and be excited about it.

• 7:39Fearne Cotton?

  I know, especially, I mean, this is your sixth New York Times bestselling fiction. That is just huge. I mean, for people that don't write books and people that don't know about book sales, it is incredibly hard to get in that top 10.

• 7:53Speaker 07

  Yeah, it is. It is. And I will say too, like, it's, I would say the Sunday Times is like, it's so much more competitive for some reason.

• 8:03Fearne Cotton?

  Do you think?

• 8:04Speaker 07

  I think so. It's like, it's a really big deal. I feel like I don't even know at what point. I don't think it was until maybe my third, I'm not sure when I started hitting the Sunday Times. But that always feels like a really big deal. And I feel like, you know, like, I feel like UK readers really like support UK writers, which is awesome. So it's like, an American author trying to get into that top 10 is like even trickier, which I think is like a very cool thing.

• 8:28Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, well, we all love you.

• 8:30Speaker 07

  Thank you.

• 8:31Fearne Cotton?

  The UK loves you. We're just putting that out there. Do you feel like, because you've now had six in the top 10, does the pressure mount each time? Because you're literally writing a book a year. It's a huge turnover. Do you feel that pressure mounting?

• 8:44Speaker 07

  Yeah, and you know, I don't even feel it as much for the sales stuff. Like, I feel like the lists and the numbers and all of that. It's like, I know eventually this bubble has to pop and I can't just be at, I mean, I assume I can't be at this level forever. So I'm braced for that, that's fine. But I think as far as reader reactions, that's where I feel the bigger pressure. Because, you know, every book, when people like it, I'm like, well, I want those people to be happy with the next one. And this one was like, you know, a slight sidestep from what I've been doing. It brought in this historical component and this B plot. And I think the pressure that I feel is more just being like, I want the readers who liked the last one to like the new one.

• 9:25Speaker 07

  And but also knowing I need to be able to move forward and do something slightly different with each book.

• 9:30Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, and you've got to feel creatively challenged and like you're enjoying it. Do you have that sense that the last book you've written is always your best one? Or do you have a favourite?

• 9:41Speaker 07

  I do feel that way. I do feel that way. But I also think it's so interesting, like every time I'm finishing up a book, I'm kind of like, you know, I'm so sick of it at that point. I'm like, oh no, it's horrible, it's garbage. And then people finally start reading it and I can see it with clearer eyes and I'll reread sections and feel very proud of it. But yeah, I always feel like the most recent one is the one closest to my heart and the one that is the best. But I also think my goal is always kind of for the new one to just be someone's favourite. Doesn't have to be everyone's favourite, but if it's someone's favourite, I will feel good. I will feel settled.

• 10:15Fearne Cotton?

  Why is that process so horrendous? I've been through it with every book I've written. Where I'm so excited, oh my God, I've had the best idea ever, whether it's fiction, non-fiction. This is the best thing ever. And then I can't wait, I'm so excited. Then I start editing it and I think, Okay, yeah, this isn't bad. This is, this is okay. And then I edit it again and I think, this is a pile of shit.

• 10:36Speaker 07

  Exactly.

• 10:36Fearne Cotton?

  Why did I even start? I hate this. I don't stand by a single word that I've written here. And then I have to ring other friends that write to boost me and say, no, this is, remember, this is the thing. We do this every time.

• 10:48Speaker 07

  Every time. And they'll tell you every time. Literally, I mean, yes, you know, this is a conversation you will have every single time. And all of your friends will tell you, you said it last time. And you'll say, yeah, but I think it's like actually true this time. Like that time was different. And this time it actually is a pile of shit. And it's so interesting because it's like you can be in it at the same time as one of your other writer friends. And you're still able to tell them with perfect clarity, no, you've just read this book 9,000 times. Of course, you don't think it's funny anymore. But when they tell you that, you're like, no, it's because it's not funny and it never was. And everyone's been lying to me.

• 11:21Fearne Cotton?

  It's the pits. It's just, and the thing is with writing as well, it's like, the only thing keeping you on track with that very long, at times arduous process is the sort of hope that you'll finish it and the hope that people will like it. There's no science behind it. There's no, you know, sort of particular shared framework or

• 11:43Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 11:44Fearne Cotton?

  routine way of doing it. You've just got to keep writing it and, and sort of be motivated somehow.

• 11:50Speaker 07

  You basically keep doing it until your editor prize it from your hands and is like, stop, stop. I mean, yeah, I, I don't know. I guess I hear in you something that I feel in myself and, and everything where it's like, I want there to just be a checklist where it's like, you've done it and now it's done and this thing is done. And I want that for everything. Like if I'm grieving, I want that. If I'm having anxiety, I'm like, why isn't there just five steps? And when you do them, you will feel better. And I think with writing too, you're like, I should be able to tell for sure, is this book good or bad at a certain point? Or I should be able to complete these steps and then know it's done. And it's just not how it works. And you could just tinker with that forever. And then at a certain point, you do start making it worse, I think.

• 12:32Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, I agree. You've got to at some point release it into the wild and just, you know, let it have its own thing. And of course, especially with fiction and, and with your books, you know, everybody will have their own version of who those characters are, what they mean to them, how they're visualizing them, how they're visualizing the place. That's quite a scary thing to. You know, you've got to really let go at that point.

• 12:53Speaker 07

  Yeah, it really does become the readers in a way, which is really strange because there's this version of it that is yours. But that's not the only version of it out there anymore. And I think that's like the exciting thing, but it's also daunting. And like you said, it's like, everybody's going to bring their own stuff to this. And I mean, reading the reviews for any book in the entire world will teach you that because

• 13:15Fearne Cotton?

  Yep.

• 13:15Speaker 07

  Some people will have exact opposite reactions to the exact same thing. So

• 13:20Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 13:20Speaker 07

  Yeah, it's, it's, it is weird to just accept like, this is no longer just mine. It is now ours. But I also think, like you were saying, it's kind of like the point. It's like the thing that you're excited about that gets you to keep writing when you're ready to just stop. When you're bored or when you start thinking it's bad, whatever, you're, you're really just chasing that moment of being able to let it go. And, and find other people to belong to.

• 13:43Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, it's done. You've finished, you know, you, you get to almost sort of say goodbye to those characters. Cause you've had, you've had your time with them. I mean, I first, I probably should have said this right at the start, but I first became aware of you because you've got a book called Happy Place.

• 13:56Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 13:57Fearne Cotton?

  So that's the name of my brand and people kept tagging me with your picture and the book. And I was like, what is this book? Emily Henry, I need to work out who. And then it was, I mean, you've got a whole window in my local bookshop.

• 14:07Speaker 07

  Oh, my gosh, that's incredible.

• 14:09Fearne Cotton?

  A whole bloody window. They don't do that for anyone. Like that is, is a big deal. You've got a whole great big beautiful life window and it looks so, so pretty.

• 14:17Speaker 07

  Amazing.

• 14:18Fearne Cotton?

  But your book, I mean, you've got these gorgeous front covers. You've got the, these amazing poppy colors. They're so standout. And Happy Place was like instantly eye catching. Like what the hell is this? And then obviously your latest book fell into my hands and I was like, we have to talk about this book on book club. It's just such a feel good story. I got swept away. I actually did read it on holiday, which I think

• 14:39Speaker 07

  Oh, nice.

• 14:40Fearne Cotton?

  Is the perfect place to get into a book like this where there's this slow burn romance, which is my favorite thing ever. Really interesting characters. You've got Margaret, who's a reclusive heiress, who I became completely obsessed with the idea of that. And the mystery behind her and her backstory. Where did these characters and this whole plot come from? You know, how, what is your method in finding these characters?

• 15:04Speaker 07

  Yeah, well, it, it really is for me, like always just taking everything that I'm interested in in that moment that I haven't really explored and just tying it together. Like if it's like a little serial killer board with yarn on it, you know, it's like the intersection of these things. Makes this exact book. And so one piece of that, like one strand was that I had just written this book, funny story about two very nice people who like each other. And it was so hard to find a real plot in that and to keep these characters apart and to create that slow burn when it's like, well, but they're nice and they like each other. So you know, they should be together. And so coming off of that, I was like, okay, that was a real struggle. I want to have an external plot that keeps characters apart.

• 15:48Speaker 07

  So that was like the mercenary piece of it. It was like, I need the love story to be decidedly complicated. And so putting these two characters competing for the same job was like a way to keep them apart in a, in a more tangible way. So I was like, that good, settled. And so obviously then I just created a bunch of new problems for myself that were different from the last book's problems. So there, so there was that piece. And then there was this mother daughter component. Alice's relationship with her mom is like a big focus in the book. And I have written a lot about father daughter relationships, but I haven't written as much about mother daughter relationships. And I think that's because they do tend, and at least in my experience and you know,

• 16:28Speaker 07

  my friends' experiences, they tend to be so much more complicated. Like I, I, I don't know what that is. I mean, and but, but that just has been my experience. Like they can be very loving, but they're very complicated. Even like the best ones. And you can feel as a daughter, like you can feel that the weight of your mother's hopes and dreams are on your shoulders, whether those were your hopes and dreams or not. And so with Alice, I knew I wanted to write a character who has this very loving mother, but does not feel understood by her, uh, who doesn't necessarily understand her. And who feels like she is like this letdown, whether that's actually how her mother feels or not. And so.

• 17:10Speaker 07

  That was like a huge component from the very beginning before I knew anything else about the plot. And then because of that, I was thinking about this concept of legacy and the idea that you don't really totally know. Like, you might have this sense that you have your mother's hopes and dreams on your shoulders, but you don't totally know her. You don't totally know her childhood. You don't know what it is she is trying to make up for or to recover from. You only know what she has told you. And she only knows what her parents told her. And so there's this feeling that you can have all this history that's affecting your day to day life that you don't know anything about. And the one exception for that is when these families are really in the public eye because we see so much of it. We might not

• 17:54Speaker 07

  get the the true, deep feelings behind everything, but we we witness it. It's documented. And, you know, like, I was thinking about like, the Kennedys and the British Royals, and the Murdochs and the Hearsts, these big media families, all these families who for generations have been in the spotlight to some extent, or or being or they're being monitored in a way like historically. And so we can see in their lives, things that would be much harder to see in our own, like, looking at like, Harry and Meghan and being like, okay, well, we can trace this back directly, like, their reactions to things. We watched Princess Diana, like, die, like, we, you know, we mourned her. So there's just generations of information that we, the public, have about these families who are like, larger than

• 18:39Speaker 07

  life, storied families. And I loved the idea of pairing that concept with this woman who's trying to understand her mother and trying to understand where she comes from and what shapes her. And so she's interviewing this woman, Margaret, and and she's getting Margaret's whole story to the best of Margaret's ability to tell it, and while also kind of wrestling with her own sense of legacy in her own life. And so that was like, the multiple threads that came together to make this exact book.

• 19:09Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, it's so clever because I think also within all of the, you know, especially when we're looking at Alice, you know, you can see how her levels of confidence are impacted, whether that's romantically or in her career, how she sees herself, how she sort of sees herself instantly as someone lesser than Hayden because of his own achievements and also because the drive's coming from everything you've just described with her mother. And I think that resonates with so many of us, you know, we question where our drive comes from, what our ambition is based on, if it's even ours in the first place. And also why we're striving so hard and what we want out of it. And I think the exploration into

• 19:50Fearne Cotton?

  that and seeing how Alice sort of, you know, doesn't necessarily change her mind, but she learned so much more about herself through not only getting to know Margaret, but also getting to know her own mother in a different way. It was, it's a really great moment to, I think, have that self-reflection, which I think good fiction always does that.

• 20:08Speaker 07

  Yeah, totally. I mean, and what you're saying, like that ambition piece of things is not even necessarily a thread that I had consciously pulled on so much, but hearing you talk about it, I'm like, oh yeah, that really is in there where you're like, I need to prove myself, but why? Like, I was having a conversation with a writer friend and we were talking about like book adaptations and like wanting Hollywood to kind of like acknowledge that we're good at what we do because that's just its own world that's like so different from publishing and, and just, we both have a ton of frustration with. And I was like telling her, like, I need, I want to do this, I want to like write a script that gets made and I want to do all these things. And she was like, okay, but

• 20:50Speaker 07

  why? And I was like, so that they know I can do it. And she's like, but why do you care if they know you can do it? Like,

• 20:58Fearne Cotton?

  And who are they?

• 20:59Speaker 07

  Yeah, yeah.

• 21:00Fearne Cotton?

  Who are these people?

• 21:01Speaker 07

  Would you stand up? Would they stand up?

• 21:03Fearne Cotton?

  Who are they?

• 21:04Speaker 07

  Yeah, I know, I know. And she's just like, but, and she's just like, you already know you can do it. Who do you need to prove this to? Like the worst people in the world? Like, and, and so now that's like a thing that I didn't have a good answer for, but I kept being like, but I need them to witness me, you know, I need the people who have told me I can't. Do something to see me being able to do it. And she was like, but that's not going to be satisfying because they're going to act like they always knew you could do it. They're not going to like be like, wow, you really proved us wrong. They're going to, you know.

• 21:30Fearne Cotton?

  You're not going to get a badge.

• 21:31Speaker 07

  You're not, you're just, yeah, you're just playing on the hardest setting. You're just trying to accomplish the most just so like for the sense of external affirmation that's never going to come. And, you know, never.

• 21:41Fearne Cotton?

  And even if it does, like it's, I think about this all the time, especially because like in the old iteration of my career, I was sort of like quite literally climbing this ladder. I need to be the biggest broadcaster ever. And like you've just said, prove all the TV execs who don't even know who these people are.

• 21:56Speaker 07

  Right. These theoretical people.

• 21:58Fearne Cotton?

  You know, yeah, these these sort of like ghost people like that I am worthy. And again, it was like, I mean, I'm not doing that anymore, but it's like, why? What am I doing? And also you always want to prove yourself to the people that aren't necessarily going to accept you rather than the people that you know, love you and think you're great anyway. It's like, we're so, we're so messy like that. And I so understand it. And I, and I so get that thing of like, you know, you've, you've proved yourself in the book world. You don't need, if you never wrote another book again, you've had six, you know, New York Times bestselling books, you could stop tomorrow without the, you know, the, the love and the enjoyment of writing books. But in sense, in sense of achievement, like you've, you've bloody done it. But we always want the trickier level up.

• 22:42Fearne Cotton?

  But then I think what happens is you get that, you know, you could easily have a script made and it, and the films are made and everyone's absolutely loving it. It could even win an Oscar and you'd feel the same.

• 22:52Speaker 07

  Oh, totally.

• 22:53Fearne Cotton?

  You'd go, I'm still, I'm still me. That's a shame.

• 22:55Speaker 07

  Exactly. Exactly. You're like, the thing I was trying to fix here did not really take.

• 22:59Fearne Cotton?

  I've still got all those problems. This is, this is not good. I wish I hadn't done all that.

• 23:05Speaker 05

  Hey, we're Nick and Jack, hosts of the best one yet. Behind every episode, there's research, emails, spreadsheets, and our shared Google Doc, the headline hammer. With Google Workspace with Gemini, Google's AI is built right into the premium versions of tools we already use like Gmail, Docs, and Sheets. No new tools or extra logins, just personalized AI for the way we work. That means less time on the work around the work and more time finding the stories worth talking about. Get AI tools for work. Upgrade to Google Workspace with Gemini at g o o dot g l e slash workspace with Gemini. That's g o o dot g l e slash workspace with Gemini.

• 23:38Speaker 04

  Most women have been there. Something feels off. You don't feel like yourself, yet your doctor says everything looks fine. Spoiler, it's your hormones. Midi is a virtual care platform built for women by women and offers specialized hormone care from trained clinicians. Plus, it's covered by most major insurances. Getting started is easy. You can book your first visit with a clinician right away. It's not you, it's your hormones. Visit joinmidi.com to book your first visit. That's join M I D I dot com. Insurance coverage varies. Check with your plan for coverage.

• 24:09Speaker 06

  There's one thing that will forever change the way you sleep, and it's the softest 100% organic cotton bedding from Bowlin Branch. You'll fall asleep faster, wrapped in the most luxurious comfort. You'll never sleep hot again with airy blankets, cloud-like duvets, and breathable sheets. You'll experience pure comfort on night one and feel your bedding get softer with every wash. Discover the difference with 15% off your first order at bowlinbranch.com with code BUTTERY. Exclusions apply. See site for details.

• 24:39Speaker 05

  This is Nick and Jack from the best one yet, and we are excited to tell you about Walmart Business. Staying ahead of business trends means moving fast and adapting quickly. Walmart Business helps you simplify operations so you can focus on building the next big thing. Find exactly what your organization needs with their ever-expanding business assortment and everyday low prices. Keep your momentum going fast with reliable shipping and fulfillment. Eligible organizations can take advantage of tax-free shopping, both in-store and online, saving you more while getting you everything you need. It's Walmart, built for your business. Sign up for a free Walmart Business account today at business.walmart.com.

• 25:17Fearne Cotton?

  That's why I love the exploration of that between these characters, because there was that competitiveness, like you say at the start, which is not the greatest footings for a new relationship or a romance, is to have that sort of competitiveness and to see them navigate it in really different ways. And of course, there's a wonderful twist that we're not going to talk about towards the end for readers that haven't read it yet. But it was just, it was so enjoyable. I, you know, each night I'd try and get my kids in bed as quick as I could so I could get stuck back. It's like proper, proper escapism. Yeah. What do you need to ensure that happens? Because it's not a guarantee. You could have the characters, you can have a plot, but how do you get that tantalizing immersion where like you, people feel like they're in it?

• 26:00Fearne Cotton?

  What, what makes that, you know, possible for you? Oh, my gosh, fern.

• 26:05Speaker 07

  I'll try to answer, but I don't know if this is true. It's like every time, you know, it's like you're writing a new book and you're like, here we go. Is this gonna work? I feel like there's part of it that's like, as a writer, when you feel it, you know, probably they're going to feel it, but you don't always feel it. Sometimes you have to fake it for a very long time until things click. And so the thing that's like, kind of the formula in my head that sometimes works and sometimes doesn't is like, first, like a question you need to have answered, like a mystery, even in a romance novel. And like, this one obviously has a more obvious mystery component, but in my past novels too, like, there's just, there should be some question that you need answered, even if it's just like, what decision is this person going to make? And you have to feel the really real pull of multiple options, if that's the case.

• 26:50Speaker 07

  I think having a big question that you just, you would want answered, will get you a long way with the readers. And then I think like, setting, you know, like, like, creating a place, a place that your reader is going to want to live inside of. I mean, I think like tension, like romantic tension is like, part of that question that we're talking about. So creating that romantic tension will usually pull a reader along if you're like, dying for these people to get together, the slow burn.

• 27:16Fearne Cotton?

  Dying for them to. Like, please, just have a kiss, for god's sake.

• 27:21Speaker 07

  Yes, you're killing us.

• 27:22Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, but I think the setting, you're absolutely right, because I did feel like I was teleported to this gorgeous location. And it was all so visual and yeah, I mean, you're just, obviously, well, we all know, you're clearly excellent at what you do. So it was just, it was a joy, it was a joy to read. So look, obviously, you're still in the depths of talking about this book and getting it out there and doing all the promo, and you're on various huge book clubs. Let's just talk about Reese Witherspoon. But if you already started thinking of new ideas, do you give yourself a break? Like, because you're churning out these books, so how, when does it stop?

• 27:57Speaker 07

  Yeah, I mean, this is the first time that I am giving myself a break. I don't, there will be another book. I don't know when that book will come out. I'm starting to slowly be thinking about things that excite me, but really, I've been using this break to try different things that I haven't done before. So I've been like, I wrote an essay and I've got a couple of short stories that I'm toying with. And I have been like, working on the scripts for the adaptations, even though, as we just established, it's not gonna fix my life.

• 28:27Speaker 07

  So yeah, I feel like it's interesting how even it's like taking a break, but not taking a break from writing entirely is still a break for me. I'm like, just by not working on a novel, it feels like, oh, I'm on vacation.

• 28:38Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 28:39Speaker 07

  Because nobody's like demanding these other things for me. It's just something I can do that I can, you know, for fun. So yeah, there will be another book for sure. There will hopefully be many more books, but I am taking a little breather for the first time since like 2016.

• 28:55Fearne Cotton?

  So. Yeah, good. I'm so glad you are because I think not only do you need to have that moment of just actually processing the fact that it's been another great success, you know, that's something in itself rather than, okay, great. I've noticed that and plowing on, you know, we all need to take more time to go, wow, I've actually made something really gorgeous here and people are getting so much enjoyment from it. Being able to spread joy like that is huge. So I think you should definitely take the time to do that. And also, I guess, just for ideas to show up. I don't know about you, but my best ideas always come when I'm not trying to think of one.

• 29:28Speaker 07

  100% and it's so hard to have been on that schedule where you need that right idea. I've had some of these books that I've put out, I have had the idea as soon as I needed to have it. And I had a nice long stretch to write it and to edit it and all of that. But there are other books that I tried four different ideas before I landed on one that actually worked and felt exciting to me. So it is really nice to not have that pressure and to know that the next thing that I write will be because this idea hit me and I could not, you know, I just couldn't let it go. That's exciting to me.

• 30:03Fearne Cotton?

  How much do you think your fiction is not necessarily based on, but helps you work through stuff that you didn't even know you needed to look at?

• 30:13Speaker 07

  Oh, so, so much. I mean, what you were, there's just this discussion about ambition, like I. Don't think I even realized how much of a part of that it was for me was thinking through all these things of guidelines or or goals I'm setting on myself without even realizing it. I think that was huge, but also all of it. I mean, there are things I'm consciously working through with with Happy Place, the book, not the club.

• 30:38Speaker 07

  That whole book was really intentionally me trying to figure out my people pleasing tendencies. It was like, I'm gonna give this character this people pleasing impulse that is ruining her life while she's trying to use it to like, keep everything, you know, totally manageable and balanced and all of that. And that was a really conscious decision to write through this character. And I've had some other books like that where it's been from beginning, I kind of knew what it was I was using, what I was trying to exercise with this book. And and then there's also the things that you don't really know until you're reading, like, three years later, you pick it up and you're like, oh, wow, I see what I was going through here. And I didn't realize it at the time, but I was like, working something out here. Do you find that experience too?

• 31:19Fearne Cotton?

  Yes.

• 31:20Speaker 07

  Yes.

• 31:20Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, my God. I mean, obviously with my nonfiction, I'm quite literally working through things and telling everyone my problems. But I've only written one, I've written, I don't know how many books, but anyway, the fiction, um, yes, like, absolutely look back at it now and go, yeah, I know what where my head was at.

• 31:39Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 31:40Fearne Cotton?

  And and actually, I think most of the books I've written, I would say, have changed my life considerably, which might sound a bit pretentious, but I already think they have.

• 31:50Speaker 07

  No, I agree. I think that's kind of the point. I think, like, you know, we were talking about how a big part of why we do this is because we do want to share this with an audience. We want to be able to gift this thing to the world and have it go belong to the readers. But I think just as importantly, or if not more importantly, it is for us. I think when you're writing something or making anything. That process of making it has to be enough because there's no guarantee that anyone will ever see it or care about it. And if it's not changing you or doing something for you, then there's just no point. I think it starts with that internal transformation. And it sounds like kind of woo woo, but I always think about it as like a version of alchemy, where you're doing this weird little ritual.

• 32:35Speaker 07

  And it's supposed to have these physical effects, you know, after the fact, but also just the process of doing it is supposed to be kind of like magical and change you without you understanding why.

• 32:46Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, I agree. And I think also for the reader, you know, I think people will read your books and learn so much about themselves. You know, any good fiction makes you turn inwards and look at your own tendencies and, you know, whether you're shouting at the page, well, I wouldn't do that or whatever. It just highlights things about you. And that's why it's so, reading will always bring me joy, especially good fiction, because it's just, you know, a constant little nudge to look at your own moral tendencies or outlook on life. And it's fascinating. But look, we love this book and we're so glad that everyone's reading along with us and commenting and getting involved in the conversation.

• 33:26Fearne Cotton?

  And may you have all, even more success if that's humanly possible with your books and Hollywood and beyond.

• 33:35Speaker 07

  Thank you so much, Fern. And right back at you, you don't need the well wishes, but you've got them from my heart.

• 33:40Fearne Cotton?

  Thank you. Thank you so much. Oh, thanks, Emily. God, I loved that. What brilliant, brilliant human. I loved, loved that insight into Emily's process, her mind, her dreams, her desires, where her drive comes from. It was just brilliant. I loved it. So look, a new month and a new book to read in the Happy Place Book Club. June's novel is called The Names and it's by Florence Knapp. It's set in 1987, in the aftermath of a great storm. Cora sets out with her young daughter to register the birth of her son. Her husband intends for her to follow a longstanding family tradition and call the baby after him. But when faced with the decision, Cora hesitates.

• 34:23Fearne Cotton?

  Is it right for her child to inherit his name from generations of domineering men? I'll tell you now, it's that, but it's also so much more. I don't want to spoil it for you, though. So do read along with us. We're on at Happy Place Book Club on Instagram, and then we can chat all about it in great detail. All right, until next time, a massive thanks again to Emily, to the producer, Anushka Tate, at Happy Place Studios, and to you, you lovely bookworms, you're the best.

• 35:15Speaker 05

  Hey, we're Nick and Jack, hosts of The Best One Yet. Behind every episode, there's research, emails, spreadsheets, and our shared Google Doc, the headline hammer. With Google Workspace with Gemini, Google's AI is built right into the premium versions of tools we already use, like Gmail, Docs, and Sheets. No new tools or extra logins, just personalized AI for the way we work. That means less time on the work around the work, and more time finding the stories worth talking about. Get AI tools for work. Upgrade to Google Workspace with Gemini at goo.gle/workspacewithgemini. That's goo.gle/workspacewithgemini.

• 35:48Speaker 06

  There's one thing that will forever change the way you sleep, and it's the softest 100% organic cotton sheets from Bowlin Branch. You'll fall asleep faster, wrapped in the most luxurious comfort. You'll never sleep hot again, with sheets that feel breathable to sleep in. You'll experience the purest softness on night one, and feel your sheets get even softer with every wash. Discover the difference with 15% off your first set of sheets at bowlinbranch.com with code BUTTERY. Exclusions apply. See site for details.

• 36:19Speaker 08

  Brought to you by the Capital One Saver Card. With Saver, you earn unlimited 3% cash back on dining, entertainment, and at grocery stores. That's unlimited cash back on ordering takeout from home, or unlimited cash back on tickets to concerts and games. So grab a bite, grab a seat, and earn unlimited 3% cash back with the Saver Card. Capital One. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See CapitalOne.com for details.

• 36:48Speaker 09

  At Humana, our Medicare Advantage plans are easy to understand and easy on your wallet. Like offering more benefits than you'd get from original Medicare alone, and including dental, vision, and hearing coverage in every plan. And the best part is, every plan has a $0 or low monthly plan premium, which makes it easier to save, too. So this Medicare planning season, plan well with Humana. Learn more at GetHumana.com. Humana is a Medicare Advantage HMO and PPO organization with a Medicare contract. Enrollment in any Humana plan depends on contract renewal.