The Dating Advice Making Us Worse at Love with Relationship Expert Amy Chan

The internet is flooded with advice for dating in the smartphone age: know your type, trust the spark, watch for red flags, protect your peace, never settle. It sounds like self-respect, but relationship expert Amy Chan thinks it’s a big reason dating feels impossible right now. Her argument: we need to correct the lessons we’ve learned when it comes to dating. The person who’s great on a first date isn’t necessarily great at a relationship. Instant chemistry isn’t always a good sign. A red flag could just be an imperfection. And keeping our options open has made a lot of us genuinely bad at choosing someone. Amy is the founder of Renew Breakup Bootcamp and the author of Unsingle: How to Date Smarter and Create Love That Lasts. For nearly two decades she’s looked at dating through psychology and neuroscience — why we’re drawn to certain people, why relationships fall apart, and what actually predicts whether one lasts. She started her career helping people end relationships… Now, she teaches them how to build one. In this episode you'll learn: ➡️ Why “instant chemistry” is one of the worst predictors of a lasting relationship ➡️ The quiet qualities research says actually predict a happy partnership ➡️ Why dating skills and relationship skills are two completely different skill sets ➡️ How the algorithm rewards red-flag advice 10X over green-flag advice (and what that’s doing to you) ➡️ Situationships: why the breakup hurts more when there was never a breakup ➡️ “Leaky energy,” micro-cheating, and the honest test for both ➡️ The 9-date experiment Amy gives clients who are stuck dating the same person ➡️ How the right relationship shrinks old wounds ➡️ Why discomfort is a critical skill dating requires Amy’s advice isn’t about finding a better person. It’s about becoming someone better at love. And that’s advice all of us could use! This… is A Bit of Optimism. + + + This episode is brought to you by SAP. Bring it with SAP GROW. The AI Cloud ERP for any size business. Learn more at https://SAP.com/GROW + + + To get a copy of Amy's book, Unsingle: How to Date Smarter and Create Love That Lasts, head to: https://missamychan.com/#books + + + Chapters Chapters 00:00:00 Why Modern Dating Advice Is Making Us Worse at Love 00:02:26 From Broken Heart to Breakup Bootcamp 00:09:50 Why Dating Feels Harder Than Ever 00:11:35 The Two Different Skill Sets: Dating vs. Relationship 00:12:26 Online Dating and the Imagination Problem 00:14:17 The Coffee Date Defense and the "Five Out of Ten Rule" 00:15:53 The Cure for Avoidant Attachment 00:18:13 The ADHD Love Bomb Confession 00:24:49 What Self-Care Culture Gets Wrong About Commitment 00:30:31 Situationships: The Safe Space That Keeps You Stuck 00:33:07 Leaky Energy and Micro-Cheating 00:35:08 Amy's Seven-Year Relationship and Emotionally Corrective Experiences 00:39:28 The Instant Chemistry Trap 00:40:59 The Nine-Person Dating Experiment 00:44:37 Why Young People Aren't Dating Anymore 00:45:49 Bad Feelings Don't Mean It's Bad 00:48:02 The Single Skill That Saves Relationships + + + Simon is an unshakable optimist. He believes in a bright future and our ability to build it together. Described as “a visionary thinker with a rare intellect,” Simon has devoted his professional life to help advance a vision of the world that does not yet exist; a world in which the vast majority of people wake up every single morning inspired, feel safe wherever they are and end the day fulfilled by the work that they do. Simon is the author of multiple best-selling books including Start With Why, Leaders Eat Last, Together is Better, and The Infinite Game. + + + Website: http://simonsinek.com/ Leaderful: https://simonsinek.com/leaderful Podcast: http://apple.co/simonsinek Instagram: https://instagram.com/simonsinek/ Linkedin: https://linkedin.com/in/simonsinek/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/simonsinek Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/simonsinek

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Simon Sinek?

  When I look at my favorite couples,

• 0:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 0:02Simon Sinek?

  and I have a few of them, like the couples that I like, I want a relationship exactly like theirs. Like, my god.

• 0:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 0:07Simon Sinek?

  If I ask any of them, what's your secret? They all say the same thing, which is, we do the work.

• 0:13Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 0:14Simon Sinek?

  You know?

• 0:15Speaker 01

  I think what you've explained when you talk about your, the friends that you have that have great relationships, and the ups and downs, and the working through it, you describe a great relationship. And I think a challenge that people have today is this mindset that they need to meet the perfect person first, and then it'll be great. We need to meet people who are good enough, and then we jump in with two feet. And then, through going through the stuff, it's the hard stuff when you're there for each other, that it goes from good to great.

• 0:48Simon Sinek?

  Some of the dating advice that we follow might actually be making us worse at dating. Know your type, trust the spark, watch for red flags, never settle, protect your peace. And if someone isn't quite right, there are hundreds of other options waiting on an app. The problem is, the person who's great on a first date isn't necessarily great at a relationship. Instant chemistry isn't a good sign. A red flag might just be an imperfection. And keeping our options open can make us pretty terrible at actually choosing someone. That's why I wanted to talk to Amy Chan. For nearly two decades, she looks at dating through a sort of psychology and neuroscience lens. Why we're attracted to certain people, and why relationships fall apart.

• 1:33Simon Sinek?

  She's also the founder of Renew Breakup Bootcamp, and the author of Unsingle. Her work makes the case that finding love isn't just about finding the right person. It's about getting better at the skills love requires. It turns out, dating takes practice. And so does staying in love. If you like what you hear, please remember to subscribe. This is a bit of optimism.

• 2:05Simon Sinek?

  This episode is proudly brought to you by SAP. Building trusting relationships with clients, it turns out, takes more than simply being an expert in your client's business. It actually is about empathy, and being willing to step outside your own comfort zone. To learn more about SAP, the AI cloud ERP for businesses of all size, head to sap.com/grow. I'm always fascinated about people's careers, and how we stumble into them. And I think you and I are very similar, that this was not our chosen path.

• 2:34Speaker 01

  No.

• 2:34Simon Sinek?

  I never imagined I'd be doing what I'm doing. I don't think you imagined that you'd be a relationship expert.

• 2:39Speaker 01

  No.

• 2:39Simon Sinek?

  You didn't come from this world.

• 2:41Speaker 01

  No.

• 2:41Simon Sinek?

  You didn't study it. And for so many of us who stumble into these things, it's our personal experiences that sort of, you know, the solutions we find are the struggles that we're finding. And so, you started not by talking about how do people, you started by not trying to help people have relationships, but how to end them, right? Tell me about what happened to you.

• 3:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:02Simon Sinek?

  That unleashed, or opened up, an entirely new career. Your accidental career.

• 3:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, so I was in a relationship in Vancouver, and I thought I was living the dream. And back then, living the dream meant, you date to get married, and then you have children. And then, the plan I had with this guy, who ran a business, was I would write on the side for fun. And we would have kids, and everything was set. And then a series of things happened. I lost my job, I moved in with him. And then, he cheated on me with a former coworker of mine. And it wasn't just the relationship that fell apart. So much of my identity and future was wrapped up in that relationship.

• 3:47Simon Sinek?

  Like, I am the girlfriend, I'm the wife, I'm the mother.

• 3:50Speaker 01

  I was, yeah, the perfect girlfriend, training to be the perfect CEO's wife. Like, that's what I thought was my dream. And that shattered, and I shattered. I, it was dark, like, it was so hard. And as an achiever, like, there was nothing I could do to get out of that pain.

• 4:06Simon Sinek?

  How long were you guys together?

• 4:08Speaker 01

  Uh, two years.

• 4:09Simon Sinek?

  Okay.

• 4:09Speaker 01

  Yeah. So, I, I just, I really struggled. And when I came out of that, which took quite a long time, like, two and a half years, I was like, what happens to those people who don't have friends that will lend them a couch, or know what books to read, or have a therapist? So I was like, I have to create what didn't exist for me. So that's what I did.

• 4:34Simon Sinek?

  And what, what, what were the things that you found for you that helped you get out of this malaise for, I mean, two and a half years to be stuck in mourning is a long time, for any kind of loss.

• 4:46Speaker 01

  For sure.

• 4:46Simon Sinek?

  Relationship or otherwise.

• 4:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, and, look, the intensity of the pain, I think, lasted six months. That's when it's like constant rumination, revenge plotting. But, you know, after that, like-

• 4:59Simon Sinek?

  You didn't do anything, did you?

• 5:02Speaker 01

  I didn't, but I had some really good plans.

• 5:04Simon Sinek?

  I want to know one of them. I want to know one of them.

• 5:07Speaker 01

  Buying bedbugs off the black market, and infiltrating her home and his home.

• 5:14Simon Sinek?

  Wow.

• 5:16Speaker 01

  Wild, right? It was bad.

• 5:19Simon Sinek?

  But looking back now, you can recognize that if you did that, you're the crazy one, right?

• 5:25Speaker 01

  Yeah. Thank god I didn't do it, oh my god.

• 5:31Simon Sinek?

  Okay, this, I'm fully aware that, you know, this episode, we're going to be giving advice. This is not the advice part.

• 5:37Speaker 01

  Don't do it, don't do it.

• 5:40Simon Sinek?

  We will not be giving instructions on how to get on the dark web, or any links for bedbugs.

• 5:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, so, I mean, like, and after a period of time, like, that intense pain went away, but I was resentful, and like, I was trying to date, but I had a closed heart. And any person I could rally into my corner about what a victim I was, and what a villain he was, that would be the story. And it really wasn't until like, two and a half years later, I'm having coffee with a friend, catching him up, and I'm like, telling him the story, I'm like, what this guy did to me? And he just stopped me, and he's like, "So, Amy, does this story serve you?" And I'm like, "No." And he's like, "Oh, can you, was there any time when he did love you, and he was kind?" And I just thought about it, I'm like, "Yeah, there was this and that." And I just realized in that moment,

• 6:30Speaker 01

  for the last two and a half years, like, all I could see was a dark, because that's all I was looking for. And I went home that day, and I wrote him a letter of forgiveness, of how I grew. And it was like, all those things I was doing, that I was like, this isn't helping. It's like, it all came together like glue, and it just hit. And I just didn't have any resentment for him after that.

• 6:53Simon Sinek?

  What was the impetus for you to- so you found tools that helped you, that started with your friend, sort of, telling you that it doesn't serve you, this story. And then, it set you on a journey of healing, and moving forwards, and looking out the front mirror, out the, out the front window.

• 7:14Simon Sinek?

  You know, were you starting to dispense sort of armchair advice to your friends that was working? Did your story help others? Like, how did you go from healing yourself to, to, to giving away what you had learned?

• 7:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, I looked at everything that I tried, and what worked, and what didn't. And from there, I was like, okay, these things really worked. I, I was a writer. I've been writing about relationships for 20 years. So I would write about it, in blogs, in, in, in different columns. And then, when I had this idea, I brought the best experts in that specific thing. So if it was cognitive behavioral therapy, I found an expert in that. Somatic therapy, and I just learned from them, and I created the curriculum. Yeah, and that's how I started. It started with like, seven people. Half of them were my friends.

• 8:05Simon Sinek?

  I love that. I mean, that's my story too.

• 8:07Speaker 01

  That's it?

• 8:07Simon Sinek?

  Yeah, I know, I started giving talks in people's living rooms, with their friends.

• 8:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:11Simon Sinek?

  Yeah, that's the same, same, same. The, I found you on the internets. I saw you on, on Instagram.

• 8:16Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 8:17Simon Sinek?

  And I was like, so this is the best thing about having a podcast, right? Which is, if I see somebody on Instagram who I think is really, really cool, and I was like, hmm, I could, this would help me, you know? I get to invite them on the podcast, have a conversation. Yeah, it's about you, but it really is about me.

• 8:36Simon Sinek?

  We were talking, before we turned on the cameras, about my relationships. And I probably fit many of the patterns. I, I do think that there is a lot of judgment we put on ourselves, society puts on us, and expectation. For example, there's a lot of pressure that, whether it comes from our families, ourselves, society, whatever it is, you know, to have, to have, get married, have the kids, white picket fence. I mean, the, the fantasy you had.

• 9:01Speaker 01

  Right.

• 9:02Simon Sinek?

  I'm writing a lot about friendship these days, because I think that we, our society's overemphasized the romantic relationship, and underemphasized the, the friendship, the platonic relationship. And I have romantic friendships. Now, that doesn't mean that they're sexual, they're not. But they're deeply intimate.

• 9:19Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 9:20Simon Sinek?

  And there's love, and there's care. Neither of us want to date each other. But they're very fulfilling. And if I, and it's kind of like you looking for the darkness, which is, if I ignore all the goodness that I have in my friendships, I will feel lonely that I'm, that I'm not in a relationship. But if I appreciate the friendships, it takes the pressure off.

• 9:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:40Simon Sinek?

  Which probably makes me more datable anyway. You know, if there's just a lack of, "Gotta get into this." Do you think that-

• 9:50Simon Sinek?

  Dating seems to be more difficult these days that I know young people are later to have sex. Young people are the the the tenure of relationship seems to be small shorter. What is the reason? What you've you've met a lot of people of all ages. Can you discern that it's a young person challenge or is it a current day challenge? Like, why does dating feel more difficult than it used to? And I it's too easy to simply say the internet.

• 10:16Speaker 01

  Right, yeah. Uh, I think dating apps have changed the way that we meet people, but they change the way we think about people. And if you think about the act of just swiping a hundred times a day, that's what I used to do. Just swipe swipe swipe and the hundred person person I would look at like it's just there's so much incoming.

• 10:34Simon Sinek?

  Shopping.

• 10:35Speaker 01

  And we know through research that the things that you're being so picky on for a dating app. Height, looks, hair, whatever it is, if you met that person at a dinner party, you wouldn't have that same judgment. But we're meeting people in these ways and it's changing the way that we see people. So we can even go on a date, have a good date. The second date, we noticed they wore flip flops. And suddenly, if you remember all the stuff you're being fed on Instagram, what an ick. Or maybe they asked you for coffee and not a dinner. And that advice is being told to you that a coffee, what a waste of your time. So I think that we are walking around with barriers around our heart.

• 11:17Speaker 01

  We don't trust the media, we don't trust our government, we don't trust thy neighbor, we don't trust anyone. And so how can we connect and see another person as a human being with flaws? And have empathy when they mess up when we are doing that?

• 11:31Simon Sinek?

  And can that be done with internet dating?

• 11:35Speaker 01

  I think it can be done, but I think that there are certain set of skills we need to learn for dating. And there are a separate set of skills you need to learn to sustain a relationship. And there are people who are great at dating, they're charismatic, they know what to say, they're adventurous. But those people aren't necessarily good at being a partner.

• 11:57Simon Sinek?

  I, in my experience, what I found fascinating about online dating, and I've done it and I've had success with it.

• 12:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:06Simon Sinek?

  I've also made a lot of friends. But what I found really interesting is pre, you know, if you if you if you meet somebody offline, whether it's at a dinner party or a museum or wherever it is. The the initial uh connection, there's charm and there's chemistry and the sense of humor. And it's after you make the connection, you say to the person, can I have your number? And then you go on the first date, but there's already a there's already a connection before the first date.

• 12:35Speaker 01

  Right.

• 12:36Simon Sinek?

  In online dating, the only thing you have is a picture, maybe some stats.

• 12:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:41Simon Sinek?

  But usually not even that.

• 12:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:44Simon Sinek?

  I guess where I'm getting at is it seems like online dating, we're dating things in our imagination. We're holding people up to standards in our imagination.

• 12:53Speaker 01

  Right.

• 12:53Simon Sinek?

  And we're getting advice, as you said, you know, people are doing it for clicks and likes. But they're dispensing nonsense very often.

• 13:00Speaker 01

  Right.

• 13:00Simon Sinek?

  I'm I'm so curious if if this is, it's clearly not a new experience, but is it exaggerated? Have you noticed, I want to know the frustrations you hear from people, why their relationships aren't working?

• 13:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, like, I think in your case, I I would imagine for you, people are probably pedestal in you and they have an idea of who you are before they meet you. So meeting people online, um, they're not, they already have like almost like a fantasy version. I always advise my clients, don't look them up because you're either gonna pedestal them or you're going to judge them. So I mean, don't do that if you can. But I think there's a lot of other frustrations and I think they there's different ones I hear from women and I hear from men. So I I feel that the women are saying a lot of the times the guys are talking too much. And I try to explain to them that sometimes a guy is talking a lot.

• 13:56Speaker 01

  Maybe it's because they're narcissistic, but sometimes it's because they're nervous and they're trying to impress you. And I really advise people, if you felt a connection of five out of 10, if you had a good time, you go again. I don't think the first date is meant to be like, are they gonna be my future baby daddy? Like, stop that, it makes you future trip.

• 14:16Simon Sinek?

  Too much pressure.

• 14:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's just a vibe check and that is why a coffee is totally okay.

• 14:20Simon Sinek?

  Which is which is like that charming interaction at a museum before you go the first date.

• 14:24Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 14:25Simon Sinek?

  You have to treat this like the charming interaction.

• 14:26Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 14:27Simon Sinek?

  That's very good advice.

• 14:28Speaker 01

  And then if that was good, go again. And then it's not until the third date to about 20, I call it the evaluation stage where you get to know someone and you see like, is there an alignment of values? Like those sorts of things, but there are things that you can only tell through experiences with that person. So I do think it's a great idea to go on that weekend trip, see how they handle stress when something doesn't work out. Meet their friends before you jump in and be in your mind of like, I'm committed to this person because they're so great.

• 14:56Simon Sinek?

  Or not.

• 14:57Speaker 01

  Allow, yeah, allow that time.

• 15:00Speaker 01

  And I think for some of the guys, like, they're finding that um they don't know, like, do I do I kiss them, do I don't like, they don't know the rules of engagement anymore.

• 15:13Speaker 01

  And there's a lot of ghosting going around, so yeah, the behaviors are a little off.

• 15:20Simon Sinek?

  I mean, like, if you go on one date and it doesn't work out, fine, don't, fine. But I mean, I hear about six month relationships where somebody just ghosts.

• 15:26Speaker 01

  For sure, it's a lack of ability to deal with conflict and it is a reaction that they probably have had since childhood. I think that even with friends, like, looking at these little data points of people who avoid problems. When there's an uncomfortable feeling, instead of having a conversation, they avoid it. That is very telling of how they're going to behave when a bigger thing happens.

• 15:53Simon Sinek?

  Okay.

• 15:55Simon Sinek?

  Is there a cure for avoidance, asking for a friend?

• 15:58Speaker 01

  Yes, there actually is. So um, the newer research on.

• 16:03Simon Sinek?

  Notice how my body language is.

• 16:06Speaker 01

  So there's newer research on attachment and that at any given time, you're on a spectrum of anxiety and avoidance. So before the idea was like, you're in a bucket and that's just where you are.

• 16:18Simon Sinek?

  Yeah, which I've, when I evaluate myself, it's of course, complete madness. I I'm a spectrum of things, I changes, depends on the person, depends on how much sleep I got.

• 16:26Speaker 01

  Right.

• 16:26Simon Sinek?

  I mean, all kinds of things, I can waft in and out all the time.

• 16:29Speaker 01

  So if you if you date someone who has a very full life, right? And like their idea of love is 50% of my love I get from my friends, 50% I get from my romantic relationships, which seems to be more of the world you are in versus a codependent relationship, which is a hundred percent of my love I get from my romantic partner, that won't do well for you. That will make you run for the hills. But someone who's got their own life going on and then they're they're not constantly at you for more energy, more time. That will probably make you, your nervous system ease in and want them a bit more, right? And so like, what you want to do is like, people who tend to have higher avoidance, they're really good in the first three months, right?

• 17:14Speaker 01

  Because there's you're intoxicated, there's the threat of like someone getting too close isn't there yet. And usually it's around the three month mark that something shifts. And what will happen is you'll find it imperfection. There's something that will make this relationship not viable for the long term. Is any of that resonating for your friend?

• 17:32Simon Sinek?

  Uh, yeah, yeah, based on the conversations we've had, some of that is true.

• 17:35Speaker 01

  Right.

• 17:36Simon Sinek?

  Not all of it.

• 17:36Speaker 01

  Right.

• 17:37Simon Sinek?

  But some of it is true for sure.

• 17:38Speaker 01

  The experiment for a friend who does that is to challenge yourself, knowing this is what's going to happen. And it's a very natural reaction where your nervous system is freezing and wanting to run because it doesn't feel safe. And you want to communicate like, hey, I'm feeling a little bit flooded. And just try to have that conversation with that secure person and stick it out. Stick it out for another three months, tolerate the discomfort and you will move through it. If you are with a partner who is secure enough to deal with it.

• 18:13Simon Sinek?

  I did something recently for the first time in my life. So, because I I the ADHD doesn't help, right?

• 18:18Speaker 01

  Right.

• 18:19Simon Sinek?

  Because with ADHD, I'll fixate on something, I'll hyper focus and I'll give, I'll accidentally love bomb somebody, which can feel great.

• 18:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:26Simon Sinek?

  You know, and so I'm responsible for giving a ton of energy. And so when they reciprocate, I'm like, pressure, but I'm, they're just reciprocating my energy. Or the opposite happens with ADHD, which is I meet them, I can't wait to, and then I forget that the I forget to call them. Two weeks will go by and be like, shit, you know? But uh, but what I did something recently for the first time ever, which was lots of high energy, really like each other, going super well. She starts reciprocating with tons of love and energy and attention. I'm like, absolutely not, this is not gonna work. I, you know, I was like, we've only known each other a few weeks and you're trying to lock me down and make me your husband. I'm not ready for this. But what I did was, and I literally, she was like texting me every day and sending me pictures.

• 19:11Simon Sinek?

  She's on vacation and she's sending me everything she's doing, I'm like, I've known you a week, you know, it's like, I don't need all this, you know? And so I called her up, I said, uh, I have avoidant tendencies, I said to her. I said, and so when you give me all this attention, it's pushing me away. I said, you're not doing anything wrong.

• 19:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:32Simon Sinek?

  I said, I said, I understand that I gave you tons of attention. I understand that you're matching my attention and my reaction is nothing to do with you. I just want you to know it's happening.

• 19:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:44Simon Sinek?

  And I want you to know that I'm going through this because I have these avoidant tendencies. And I simply just took full accountability, didn't blame her behavior, didn't make her wrong.

• 19:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:53Simon Sinek?

  And just took total ownership of her, my reaction to what was happening. And and the fact that I played a part in creating the environment that would make it feel safe for her to to love bomb me back. And it was great.

• 20:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. And I think what you did is super helpful because what typically people do when they feel that pressure is they avoid. And it's a very natural human reaction for someone to spiral. When someone was giving you attention and suddenly it's like one word answers or now it's two days to reply. And in their spiraling, their natural reaction is to go run and get it, right? So I have a lot of clients who spiral and they're like, I'm gonna write this message, I'm gonna, I'm like, please, for the love of God, send that to me. Do not send any communications while you're spiraling. And I get them to get into a calm place before they do any sort of communication.

• 20:51Speaker 01

  But it is, I think, letting someone know, even if you have more anxious tendencies, to be like, hey, just giving you a heads up. This is kind of what triggers me, I'm not saying this is your responsibility, but I just want you to understand.

• 21:02Simon Sinek?

  It's information.

• 21:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:03Simon Sinek?

  It's information.

• 21:10Simon Sinek?

  Instead of doing a straight ad read, we're pioneering something called an ad with authenticity. We want our ads to have valuable content for you, the listener. And this ad with authenticity is brought to you by SAP. Too many people think the way to build a career is to keep getting better at what you're already doing. SAP's David Robinson has learned that some of the most valuable growth happens when we go do the thing we've never done before.

• 21:37Speaker 02

  I came to SAP, I was in product engineering. I was brought in to work on a new strategy for the company relative to composite applications and the deconstruction of the ERP.

• 21:46Simon Sinek?

  Whatever that means.

• 21:47Speaker 02

  Whatever that means.

• 21:47Simon Sinek?

  I'll trust you that that's something very important.

• 21:49Speaker 02

  It's super important and very exciting. And I remember I was with someone at the time who said, "You need to get out of that organization just for a period of time and rotate into a customer success function." You'll learn a lot. You'll learn about the mechanics of the business, how important it is to balance both product engineering with the successful sales and delivery. He said, "The hardest thing that you'll have to decide is if you're successful, is going back." At the time, I thought, "They don't know what they're talking about." Spot on. That's exactly what happened, is that you never really go back. And what's curious is that we almost, those that have been at the company a long time, we're almost a connective tissue that the customer appreciates. Well, we did it differently in 1996.

• 22:33Simon Sinek?

  Look, CIOs keep changing, you're the consistency.

• 22:35Speaker 02

  We're the consistent, exactly. It's really, it's unexpected, but we're certainly a, we're a level of consistency, of predictability, that a lot of customers, have been longstanding customers, have come to also trust and value.

• 22:58Simon Sinek?

  Situationships.

• 22:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:00Simon Sinek?

  Very popular.

• 23:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:02Simon Sinek?

  Right? Are they a new situation? Or do we just have a name for them for the first time?

• 23:06Speaker 01

  I think we have a name for them for the first time. People have been casually hooking up for a long time. However, I think right now, it's being amplified because the apps make it super easy. There are no social consequences, right? Before, if you met through colleagues or a family, like, there's social consequences if you don't behave properly. But now, that's out the window. And I think that people are less committing, they're not committing as much. It's really, really hard, especially for the younger generation, to commit and then feel the uncomfortable emotions and those hard conversations and move through it. Why? Just stop it and find another person. And that's what they're doing.

• 23:50Simon Sinek?

  Because it's easy, right? Again, if you can shop for a new, it used to be hard to meet a new person. There was some risk with breaking up because you have to start again and how am I going to meet somebody? And, you know? But now, the shopping is so easy. In fact, very often, people will start before they've broken up. See what the options are.

• 24:06Speaker 01

  For sure.

• 24:07Simon Sinek?

  So how much of what we're talking about, you know, and I see it in work, you're seeing it in relationships, how much of it is simply people being uncomfortable with discomfort? And how much of the advice that you're dispensing is really people learning how to be uncomfortable, how to move through discomfort, how to manage discomfort, how to communicate discomfort?

• 24:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:27Simon Sinek?

  You know, how much of it is just that?

• 24:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, those are basic relational skills. But, you know, I just saw some research on how in Gen Z, their top value is self-care. And I, if you look on the internet, everything is about like self-care and like, you know, like your mantras and your matcha. Anything meaningful in life, building a career, a business from scratch, a loving intimate relationship that goes through ups and downs where each other's rock, there's not, there's moments where there's no self-care at all. And for a season, you just have to like suck it up and be committed to the thing that you have, like, that you're trying to build. And I think that is a muscle.

• 25:15Speaker 01

  And I think that is lacking in a younger generation. And that really does worry me. And so when people are wanting to get in a relationship, I think you also have to understand, like, what is their definition of commitment and love? Because if they're just about the feelings of being in love, that relationship is going to come to an head between 12 months to 18 months, when the love chemicals take a nosedive.

• 25:38Simon Sinek?

  When I, when I look at my favorite couples, and I have a few of them, I know who they are, like, the couples that I like, I want a relationship exactly like theirs. Like, my God. And it's not all unicorns and rainbows, you know, by any stretch of the imagination. But they have dynamics and they have levels of trust. And they have, they've protected each other's independence in ways that I find quite, quite magical. If I ask any of them, "What's your secret?", they all say the same thing, which is, "We do the work." You know? And I think people forget that relationships are effort.

• 26:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:11Simon Sinek?

  And that scares people, like, "What do you mean I have to do work?"

• 26:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:15Simon Sinek?

  And what they're forgetting is that if you're on the receiving end of that effort, it feels really good when somebody's willing to do the work for me.

• 26:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:25Simon Sinek?

  And if it's, if it's mutual, oh my goodness. What a magical thing that somebody's willing to be uncomfortable, sit in discomfort, move through pain, not abandon, give second chances, give benefits of doubt. You know, all of these things allow personal narratives not to take control of the relationship. Fight to get to resolution. Abandon the ideas of who's right and who's wrong. All of these things, it feels incredible when somebody does it for us. And what I've learned about relationships and what has saved me and made me a better, a better boyfriend, is I no longer view relationships as what can I get from a person? But rather, what can I give to this person?

• 27:10Speaker 01

  I think what you've explained when you talk about your, the friends that you have that have great relationships and the ups and downs and the working through it, you describe a great relationship. And I think a challenge that people have today is this mindset that they need to meet the perfect person first, and then it'll be great. It's like as if the perfect person is going to land on your lap on date two, and you're like, "Oh, my gosh, like, this is it." And that's just simply not the case. Like, a great relationship is earned. And it's earned through going up and down and seeing their flaws and that they leave their socks on the floor. And it's so annoying, but like, you work through those things. We need to meet people who are good enough. And then we jump in with two feet.

• 27:55Speaker 01

  And then, through going through the stuff, it's the hard stuff when you're there for each other, that it goes from good to great. And I don't think that a lot of people have that mindset.

• 28:08Simon Sinek?

  This explains, your whole attitude, your whole point of view around dating, explains why arranged marriages have a lower divorce rate than chosen marriages. Because they show up, not because of the swipe, but they show up knowing, "Okay, let the work begin." Is that, I mean, what is your theory as to why arranged marriages do better than chosen ones?

• 28:30Speaker 01

  Well, it's, it's commitment. And we know, like, through the paradox of choice, when you have so many choices, or if you can refund something, you'll actually be less satisfied with the thing that you bought. And right now, like, we don't have to get married anymore, right? Like, I think when we look at our parents' age, there were a lot of things or institutions that kept a couple together, or you're having family. We know now, like, it's not taboo to not have a family or to get married. You can go habitate, you cannot. And those things that would keep a relationship together, which will make you go through the uncomfortable times and like, "I have to abandon my own self-care during the season." We don't have that thing. So why are we together?

• 29:15Speaker 01

  Just for vibes? And so the vibe isn't vibing, I'm out.

• 29:21Simon Sinek?

  So much of this is mindset, isn't it?

• 29:23Speaker 01

  I think it's mindset and it's like...

• 29:25Simon Sinek?

  It's like your attitude towards.

• 29:27Speaker 01

  I think it is a maturity of looking at relationships and relationship skills. And, you know, I have, I had a client, a friend yesterday, who like wants to be my client. She's like, "Amy, like, I really, I'm ready to start dating." And she has it in her head that like, she needs to date a very, very wealthy person. And I was just trying to like go through, I'm like, "Do you really need that?" And I was like, "You're actually not ready." And the reason I know that is when someone is ready, actually open for a relationship, what they tell me they look for in a partner is not those shiny qualities. They're like, they're, they're looking at, "Are they kind? How do I feel when I'm with that person?"

• 30:12Speaker 01

  And when someone is just like, "They need to be this tall, they need to be this age." I'm like, "You are operating from your ego, and that is okay, but this is not your season right now to get serious about a relationship because you actually don't want one. Because your behavior is contradicting what you say you want."

• 30:31Simon Sinek?

  Situationships, I want to go back to situationships.

• 30:33Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 30:33Simon Sinek?

  No, no, no, because I think they're pervasive. And in my experience, they were girlfriends. We broke up and then never really broke up.

• 30:43Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 30:44Simon Sinek?

  We, we were no longer boyfriend, girlfriend. We technically could date whoever else we wanted. But we were just in this sort of limbo, nice space of spending a lot of time together, sleeping over, you know, these lovely situationships that were downgraded from the relationship we had, but never re-upgraded. Like, why are they, why are they bad or wrong when, when you have two consenting adults?

• 31:08Speaker 01

  They're not bad or wrong. However, typically what happens is one person wants more. So, and usually they don't know that until the other person finds someone else.

• 31:19Simon Sinek?

  Oh, got it. Cause, cause the situationship is safe. It has all the trappings of relationship.

• 31:23Speaker 01

  For sure.

• 31:23Simon Sinek?

  It has the, the guise of security.

• 31:27Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 31:27Simon Sinek?

  Until one person finds someone else to date. And all of a sudden you realize, oh, my God, I've just been broken up with.

• 31:34Speaker 01

  Right. And then you're, you're dealing with a breakup all over again, right?

• 31:37Simon Sinek?

  Right, right.

• 31:37Speaker 01

  Cause in your body, your body doesn't know that there was a breakup, right? Those neural pathways never had a chance to prune away. And so I work with those clients.

• 31:45Simon Sinek?

  Because there was no breakup that happened.

• 31:47Speaker 01

  No.

• 31:47Simon Sinek?

  Like babe, we're, we're breaking up or somebody cheated. It's like they, they did nothing wrong in finding a partner, a new partner.

• 31:54Speaker 01

  You can't like, so there's no transition period from this is romantically over. And then we're coming back to it in a different form, right? Your body, they're like, we've been together this whole time. So when one person in that situation finds someone else, you're just breaking up like it's square one. And, and there is nothing wrong with it, but you have to also understand like, if you are doing that and you say you want a relationship, say you want a family, you want to get married or whatever that is, is your heart actually open? Or is that real estate being taken up?

• 32:30Simon Sinek?

  Yeah, of course.

• 32:30Speaker 01

  And we justify, oh, no, it's totally fine.

• 32:32Simon Sinek?

  Yeah, yeah. So, so what we're saying is they're not inherently wrong or bad, but they do come with risk.

• 32:37Speaker 01

  They do, yeah.

• 32:37Simon Sinek?

  They come with the risk of heartbreak if the other person actually does choose to find somebody. You could sit in a perpetual situationship. Or to your point, that if I truly want a committed relationship, then I have to speak up about it. Because this isn't it and my real estate and my heart is being taken up. In other words, I'll never find the thing I'm looking for because it's, it's leaky energy. Which is a term I just learned.

• 32:59Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 32:59Simon Sinek?

  Leaky energy.

• 33:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:00Simon Sinek?

  I kind of like it.

• 33:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:02Simon Sinek?

  I kind of like it and I kind of don't like it. I like it when I'm talking about other people. Uh, what is leaky energy?

• 33:08Speaker 01

  Um, there's two definitions of it. So one leaky energy is when you are just, maybe you're in a relationship, um, but you're super flirtatious with this person or you're liking people's Instagrams. There's like little micro cheating or just getting that validation from a lot of people and you're not even aware of it. And there's like a trail of people in your dust of like, is this person into me or they not? And that does have an impact into your primary relationship, even if you think you're being innocent. Um, so that's the definition I operate on for leaky energy. It's just being aware of how your energy is coming out and the root of your energy on like, you could compliment someone, but is that root of that compliment to like,

• 33:52Speaker 01

  get validation and to start having some back and forth? Or is that really like a generous compliment?

• 33:59Simon Sinek?

  I, I want to unpack this more because there's nothing wrong, especially if you're in a long-term relationship, with finding other people attractive.

• 34:05Speaker 01

  For sure.

• 34:05Simon Sinek?

  Looking down the street like, oh, she's cute.

• 34:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:07Simon Sinek?

  You know, your girlfriend goes, oh, yeah, she is cute. You know, like there's, there's nothing wrong with that.

• 34:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:11Simon Sinek?

  You know, there's no intention.

• 34:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:12Simon Sinek?

  Behind it. And so if you're on Instagram, just swiping around and, you know, you're doom scroll and you, you like something for no reason and you click like and you keep scrolling. And if it's, you know, some girl in a bikini and you click like or some, you know, whatever it is that you're into and you click like, is that leaky energy?

• 34:31Speaker 01

  So I think it depends because I have clients who are like upset that their boyfriend is like liking a bunch of Instagram models, right? So if that guy is liking all these Instagram models because there is deep down an intention of like, maybe they'll open up a conversation or DM, that is micro cheating.

• 34:48Simon Sinek?

  Right.

• 34:48Speaker 01

  If that is like, oh, cool, like I like her yoga pants, whatever it is. And it's genuinely coming from a place of like, I'm not trying to micro cheat. That's different, right? The same action.

• 34:59Simon Sinek?

  How can you tell the difference?

• 35:01Speaker 01

  I think you have to look within yourself. You, only you know.

• 35:05Simon Sinek?

  Hmm. Okay, let's change tacks here.

• 35:07Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 35:08Simon Sinek?

  Okay, have you found love?

• 35:09Speaker 01

  I have, yeah.

• 35:10Simon Sinek?

  And how long have you been dating?

• 35:11Speaker 01

  Seven years.

• 35:12Simon Sinek?

  Seven years?

• 35:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:14Simon Sinek?

  And you didn't get married?

• 35:15Speaker 01

  No, we will, one day.

• 35:17Simon Sinek?

  Okay.

• 35:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:17Simon Sinek?

  So, so what changed in you that after two years, you were gunning for the ring? And after seven years, you're chill?

• 35:25Speaker 01

  Uh, I feel very secure and safe in the relationship. And I feel like before, when I dated people and I wanted the ring and the wedding, a lot of that was because I didn't feel secure and safe in the relationship. So I needed that to lock it down.

• 35:41Simon Sinek?

  And what about you is, makes you a, a better girlfriend than you were?

• 35:50Speaker 01

  I am in a relationship where I have had emotionally corrective experiences because I feel very safe with my partner. So even though I'm a relationship expert, I've still had like all of these old patterns that kind of awoke once I got in a relationship. Cause when I was single, there, there's not a lot that can trigger you. You're like, oh, a little of anxiety, but it's when you're in a partnership. And I just remember like, not even that long ago, we were at a cafe and he like, gets on his phone and goes on his email and I flipped. I was so mad and I, I gave him like the silent treatment for two days. And after I was like, oh, this isn't normal. I'm having a disproportionate reaction to the offense.

• 36:35Speaker 01

  And I had to look in and I'm like, oh, wait. This was because when I was like in kindergarten, my like, my mom and dad would like, forget to come get me and I would be waiting for 45 minutes. And my time was never seen as important. And so now old Amy, like this tiny thing triggers this big response. And I brought it up to my partner and we had a conversation and I apologized for how I used to also react, which was pow and cry. Um, and so like now I'm aware of that and I'm, I don't win all the time, but I can use my words and my silent treatment gets less and less.

• 37:16Simon Sinek?

  You used a term that I've never heard before. Emotionally corrective experiences.

• 37:21Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 37:22Simon Sinek?

  Unpack that for me.

• 37:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's a, it's a term used in therapy a lot where, um, it's in relation with another person, where you can actually get triggered and it's an opportunity to almost course correct the old pattern or wound. And so now in a safer environment, you're not, you're now not just an eight-year-old adapting and trying to survive, you're with someone who you can trust. So the reaction to behave how you used to can come up, but you can talk to that person. That person isn't going to yell at you or ignore you. And you move through it and you're like, oh, it's actually okay. And the more you do that, that old wound that used to trigger an outsized reaction starts to get smaller and smaller.

• 38:07Simon Sinek?

  It's a process.

• 38:08Speaker 01

  It's a process that happens in relationships.

• 38:11Simon Sinek?

  And the, and so that means both parties have to be open to the idea that you won't find the solutions after one infraction, but rather, as you said, the silent treatment gets shorter and shorter and shorter. What's frustrating about this conversation is it seems like, why can't we learn these damn lessons? It's the same themes. It's, you know, it's learn to communicate, it's take accountability, it's be, you know, learn how to sit in discomfort. Like, none of this stuff is new. It goes back since, you know, the dawn of relationships. You know, why are we still having this conversation in, you know, 2026?

• 38:44Speaker 01

  I mean, I learned how to dissect frogs when I was in school. I didn't learn how to communicate or use non-violent communication to like express my needs, right? Um, so.

• 38:54Simon Sinek?

  Well, the good news is now you dissect frogs all the time.

• 38:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:56Simon Sinek?

  That's a valuable skill. You don't need communication in your modern adult life. You need to learn how to dissect frogs. That makes perfect sense to me.

• 39:04Speaker 01

  Yes, yeah.

• 39:05Simon Sinek?

  What, with, with all the talks, people you're talking to, what is one of your constant frustrations that no matter how much advice you give, no matter how much guidance you give, coaching you give, this problem just keeps rearing? Like you just, it's just a per- a perpetual frustration for you in, in the advice that you give?

• 39:26Speaker 01

  Um, I would say the amount people of priority people put on, uh, instant chemistry.

• 39:35Simon Sinek?

  Hmm.

• 39:36Speaker 01

  And this thing that like, you're attracted to who you're attracted to. And, um, they can be drawn in by someone who has shiny qualities or fits their idea of a type. Um, but we know that through hedonic adaptation, we adjust to those things. We adjust to their height, we adjust to their income, we adjust to, I don't know, their waist size. And that thing that drew us in, that made us so excited, it goes away in like two years. So what's left after that? It's the quiet qualities and research also confirms this. It's the quiet qualities that can, um, predict if a relationship will be happy or successful. And it's how committed is your partner to you? How appreciated do you feel? How well do you handle conflict together?

• 40:21Speaker 01

  And that might not show up on a second date. Um, and so I think there is, I, I, I, I'm very optimistic about love. I think that there are a lot of viable partners around us all the time. I think one of our main problems is we have blinders on because we are over emphasizing the things that don't matter in the long term.

• 40:44Simon Sinek?

  But it's easier said than done, right? I'm listening to you, I'm going, yup, yup, yup. But how do we change our mindset to not focus on those things? Look past those things in a world that is bombarding us with those things?

• 40:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, um, I make my clients go on a dating experiment where they have to date nine different people, totally outside of their type. Because then I tell them, change your type logically, maybe go through one ear, go out the other. But if I'm like, okay, I have a client who has like a six foot height requirement. One of the people they have to date is someone shorter than them, right? I'll have a client who's like, I only date people twenty five to twenty nine. I'll have them date someone older than them. And the way they do this experiment is they can't get into a relationship with any of them. So it changes the way that they date because there isn't that pressure of finding the one. They're just like, I'm just doing this experiment. And at the end of the nine people, you can look at who was the best in terms of your benchmark, right?

• 41:40Speaker 01

  You can go back to that person or you now know in your future dates, who you're looking, what type you're looking for.

• 41:45Simon Sinek?

  Is that communicated to these nine people? Cause it's a little mean to go and.

• 41:48Speaker 01

  It's, it's not communicated until it goes a little bit deeper and then someone will say something.

• 41:53Simon Sinek?

  Okay, cause it's a little bit mean to set up expectations, like I'm on an experiment date, but you're gonna fall in love with me.

• 41:58Speaker 01

  Well, no, but here's what happens, right? So a lot of the people who finish this end up getting in a relationship, they don't finish it. And they say the exact same thing to me, they're like, Amy, I'm with someone I would have never given a chance to. And it is, human beings were drawn to what's familiar. So if you are familiar with the guy who's a little bit unattainable, you're constantly going to be attracting and being drawn to that emotional experience. So I'm, the experiment makes you be in situations where, oh, like I'm now prioritizing kindness and other things I never did before. And you get familiar with how that feels like.

• 42:40Simon Sinek?

  I know why a lot of my relationships for many years failed. I had a bad picker. I would date the wrong kind of person over and over and over again. And, uh, and, uh, for various reasons.

• 42:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:55Simon Sinek?

  Um, but I, I recognize that I had a bad picker, that, that I, they're good people, but they're not for me. You know, and I'm not for them. But I kept finding myself dating very similar personality profiles over and over and over again. And it was a big deal for me to recognize that and it's hard to break.

• 43:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:12Simon Sinek?

  It's very hard to break.

• 43:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:15Simon Sinek?

  I really like talking to you, like, you know, because I can't help but filter everything you're saying through my own experience, of course. And I'm soaking as much as I can.

• 43:27Simon Sinek?

  I, I, there's a, there's, maybe it's just because it's broadcast on, on Instagram and TikTok. But there seems to be more, excuse younger, but it's, I think that's just because they're broadcasting on Instagram and TikTok. All, all the people just aren't broadcasting their experiences as much. But there seems to be more people who don't know how to date. Forget about being in the relationship. There's one person that I follow on Instagram, whose, whose content I love. And she's, she's super affirmative and like, like just great advice giver, just, just a good, good, kind heart. Who spreads a lot of positivity, which is what I like. And every now and then she'll post a video how she, she's never had a boyfriend.

• 44:12Simon Sinek?

  She barely dates, but young, attractive, successful, you know, doing well in her, in her online influencer life. For what that's worth, that's a different conversation.

• 44:25Simon Sinek?

  And there's a sadness that this person who's in her mid to late twenties hasn't, forget about love, forget about relationship, has barely dated.

• 44:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:39Simon Sinek?

  And that seems to be more and more common. I'm meeting people in their twenties who've never really had more than a couple of dates here and there. What's going on?

• 44:54Simon Sinek?

  And, and I'm asking for the people who are listening who are young, but also for the parents of, of young people.

• 44:58Speaker 01

  Yeah. A lot of social skills have atrophied. Some of that is due to the pandemic. A lot of that is anxiety. And so the idea of going out in the wild at a coffee shop and approaching someone and risking rejection or someone not interested in you, there's so much anxiety of doing that. So why would I bother? I would rather just doom scroll or I'll do this other thing that will give me a hit of dopamine. And you do that enough times and then you just don't ever do that thing of meeting someone in person or having the conversation. And again, I do think this is, there's a message that we need to avoid the uncomfortable feelings

• 45:42Speaker 01

  and bad feelings equals bad. And so they're not, you can get rejected and it's okay.

• 45:49Simon Sinek?

  Let's double click on that. Let's double click on that, that is so good. Bad feelings does not mean it's bad.

• 45:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:56Simon Sinek?

  Right, uncomfortable doesn't mean narcissistic or toxic.

• 46:00Speaker 01

  No.

• 46:00Simon Sinek?

  Just means uncomfortable.

• 46:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:02Simon Sinek?

  All the advice that we're getting is about mitigating, blaming, letting ourselves off the hook. And very few people are giving us advice to enjoy, and I mean enjoy,

• 46:17Simon Sinek?

  discomfort, anger, depression. Depression is only a bad thing if you get stuck in it. If it's capital D depression, that's a medical condition.

• 46:30Simon Sinek?

  It's perfectly normal and healthy to be sad.

• 46:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:35Simon Sinek?

  That it's part of being human to be messy and you can't be happy every day. And I think the thing that I've learned as I've grown older, which is I, I saw negative feelings, bad feelings as somehow making me weaker. And that if I was happy and, and optimistic all the time, that makes me stronger. And what I've learned is, no, what makes me a great human being is that I have a range of emotions.

• 46:58Speaker 01

  Right.

• 46:59Simon Sinek?

  I, I learned this in a funny way.

• 47:03Simon Sinek?

  I'm an art collector. I collect a lot of art, as you may see, there's a ton of it.

• 47:09Simon Sinek?

  And I bought a sketch of a dead bird. And it showed up in the mail and I unscrolled it, you know, it was all rolled up in the tube and I unrolled it. And I had instant buyer's remorse. Like what the hell do I want with a picture of a dead bird for? Like, I'm not gonna hang a dead bird on my wall, you gotta be kidding me. And I was like, what have I done? Like, why did I buy this? You know? And by sheer luck, I had a friend over when the mail arrived, who's an artist.

• 47:39Simon Sinek?

  And I'm, I'm, I'm expressing all my buyer's remorse. And she looks at me and she goes, a good art collection has a range of emotions.

• 47:50Simon Sinek?

  And in that moment, I fell in love with my dead bird, had it framed and it hangs very proudly on my wall. Because my art collection has a range of emotions. And this is what I've learned about great human beings.

• 47:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:58Simon Sinek?

  You're getting me thinking. I'm connecting a lot of dots and seeing all these connections. But what I'm taking away from this entire conversation with you is the skill, the single skill that we all have to learn in order to succeed in dating and to succeed in relationships is our ability to sit in discomfort. And the single best way to manage discomfort is to learn how to communicate.

• 48:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 48:22Simon Sinek?

  That's my takeaway.

• 48:23Speaker 01

  And I'll add on top of that is to be aware of the story you're reinforcing.

• 48:31Simon Sinek?

  Yes, the reframing and the mindset, yes.

• 48:34Speaker 01

  Cause whatever you keep repeating, right? You go and you approach someone at the coffee shop or you DM and you get rejected. And then suddenly it is, oh, dating sucks in LA.

• 48:46Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 48:46Speaker 01

  Right, or these people are like this.

• 48:49Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 48:49Speaker 01

  And you keep saying it over and over again, or I'm an avoidant. I'm always such an avoidant in relationships. That becomes your narrative and your identity and your future.

• 49:01Simon Sinek?

  Really good, not I am an avoidant or I have avoidant or anxious attachment. But it's not a diagnosis for heaven's sakes.

• 49:07Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 49:07Simon Sinek?

  It's a, it's, I have had avoidant tendencies.

• 49:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:12Simon Sinek?

  And, uh, I, I like that it's, you know, I have had avoidant tendencies, which is it's a past pattern. It's not who I am.

• 49:19Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 49:21Simon Sinek?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's not a predetermined, it's not a, it's not predestiny, predestined.

• 49:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:27Simon Sinek?

  You're really good at what you do.

• 49:29Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 49:30Simon Sinek?

  Good stuff. Amy, thanks so much for coming on.

• 49:32Speaker 01

  Thanks for having me, this was so fun.

• 49:34Simon Sinek?

  Absolute joy. I have to do a ten part series of this. We went on for a long time. It was really good.

• 49:44Simon Sinek?

  As always, thanks for listening. And if you liked this episode, please do remember to subscribe to A Bit of Optimism wherever you enjoy listening to podcasts. And remember, new episodes drop every Tuesday. A Bit of Optimism is a production of The Optimism Company, lovingly produced by our team, Lindsay Garbenius, Phoebe Bradford and Devon Johnson. And if you want more cool stuff or just to find out what I'm up to, visit simonsinek.com. Until next time, take care of yourself, take care of each other.