Pete Holmes on Why Laughter Is the REAL Path to Enlightenment (PT. 2)

Comedian Pete Holmes is back for Part 2 and in full philosopher mode. He and Ryan dive into success, psychedelics, and why it’s not egotistical to say you’re “one of the greats.” They talk about how to find peace when life feels out of control, why laughter might be the highest form of enlightenment, and what it really means to “make it.” Pete Holmes is an American actor, comedian, writer, producer, and podcaster. He first gained recognition in the early 2010s as a stand-up comic, and also released his first comedy special and worked as a television writer and actor. He is the host of the podcast You Made It Weird https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/you-made-it-weird-with-pete-holmes/id475878118, author of Comedy Sex God https://www.thepaintedporch.com/products/comedy-sex-god?_pos=1&_sid=b27512bc4&_ss=r, and the creator of the HBO show Crashing https://www.hbomax.com/shows/crashing/3a7e596c-486c-428e-85fd-6497ae100950. Follow Pete Holmes on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/peteholmes, X https://x.com/peteholmes, and YouTube https://www.youtube.com/peteholmes Watch Ryan's episode on You Made It Weird https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nn9B-15fV1I with Pete Holmes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nn9B-15fV1I Listen to Pete interview Robert Greene https://podcasts.apple.com/nz/podcast/robert-greene/id475878118?i=1000558124752 - one of Ryan's favorite podcast episodes! 🎙️ Listen to Pete’s podcast You Made It Weird on Apple Podcast https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/you-made-it-weird-with-pete-holmes/id475878118, Spotify https://open.spotify.com/show/7bgRTVlU1rafqCEdXe71Jo, and YouTube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nn9B-15fV1I 📚 Grab signed copies of Comedy Sex God https://www.thepaintedporch.com/products/comedy-sex-god?_pos=1&_sid=b27512bc4&_ss=r by Pete Holmes at The Painted Porch | https://www.thepaintedporch.com/ https://www.thepaintedporch.com/products/comedy-sex-god?_pos=1&_sid=b27512bc4&_ss=r 👉 Support the podcast and go deeper into Stoicism by subscribing to The Daily Stoic Premium https://dailystoic.supercast.com/ - unlock ad-free listening, early access, and bonus content: https://dailystoic.supercast.com/ 📖 Preorder the final book in Ryan Holiday's The Stoic Virtues Series: "Wisdom Takes Work": https://store.dailystoic.com/pages/wisdom-takes-work https://store.dailystoic.com/pages/wisdom-takes-work 🎙️ Follow The Daily Stoic Podcast on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/dailystoicpodcast/?hl=en: https://www.instagram.com/dailystoicpodcast 🎥 Watch top moments from The Daily Stoic Podcast https://www.youtube.com/@dailystoicpodcast on YouTube https://www.youtube.com/@dailystoicpodcast: https://www.youtube.com/@dailystoicpodcast ✉️ Want Stoic wisdom delivered to your inbox daily? Sign up for the FREE Daily Stoic email at https://dailystoic.com/dailyemail 🏛 Get Stoic inspired books, medallions, and prints to remember these lessons at the Daily Stoic Store: https://store.dailystoic.com/ 📱 Follow us: Instagram https://www.instagram.com/dailystoic/, Twitter https://twitter.com/dailystoic, YouTube https://www.youtube.com/@DailyStoic, TikTok https://www.tiktok.com/@daily_stoic?lang=en, and Facebook https://www.facebook.com/dailystoic See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:03Ryan Holiday?

  Welcome to the weekend edition of The Daily Stoic. Each weekday, we bring you a meditation inspired by the ancient Stoics, something to help you live up to those four Stoic virtues of courage, justice, temperance, and wisdom. And then here on the weekend, we take a deeper dive into those same topics. We interview Stoic philosophers. We explore at length how these Stoic ideas can be applied to our actual lives and the challenging issues of our time. Here on the weekend, when you have a little bit more space, when things have slowed down, be sure to take some time to think, to go for a walk, to sit with your journal,

• 0:46Ryan Holiday?

  and most importantly, to prepare for what the week ahead may bring.

• 0:54Ryan Holiday?

  Hey, it's Ryan. Welcome to another episode of The Daily Stoic Podcast. So you probably know this, when guests come out to the bookstore, we record in the studio, which is next door to the bookstore. And then usually, my last question is like, hey, you want to go check out some books? And we walk next door, and I sort of give them a tour of the bookstore, and I pick out little books for them here or there. Now, most people love this. And then some people struggle because they think I'm just like loading them up with books that maybe they wouldn't have ordinarily bought. And then it's like, am I tricking them into spending a lot of money? And then there's a camera behind them, so like, they don't want to be rude. And I actually, it took me a while to pick up on this dynamic. Like, it was inconceivable to me that I would have made my friends

• 1:37Ryan Holiday?

  pay for these books in the bookstore, that I'm specifically picking out and raving about to them. So like, I couldn't understand that's the vibe I was picking up on. And so finally, I did. We had to tell them beforehand, Ryan's going to pick out some books for you after. They're free. If you don't like them, you don't have to take them. But like, you're not paying for them, right? And then when I had Pete Holmes, who's my guest today, we had part one of the episode earlier in the week. Pete was briefed on this in advance and still had very strong opinions about the books. Like, let me play you this clip, because I thought it was hilarious. Have you read Outdoor Kids in an Inside World? No. That's good. That might be up your alley. I don't know why, but I immediately, I'm not into it. Is this a cover reaction?

• 2:21Ryan Holiday?

  I don't like the title. You would disagree with the idea of having an outdoor kid? I don't like it. Okay.

• 2:31Ryan Holiday?

  Never had anyone push them back. Usually they just huger me.

• 2:40Ryan Holiday?

  Which is so funny because Pete is one of the nicest, sweetest, like, when you think stand-up comics, most people think sort of like acerbic and direct and sarcastic. And Pete is those things, but he's also like just incredibly sweet, kind human being. So like for Pete Holmes to be the one that pushes back on the books for the first time, I just thought was surprisingly wonderful. We had a great conversation. As I said, I've known Pete a very long time. I first did You Made It Weird, maybe back in 2019, when Stillness is the Key was coming out. He came on virtually back in 2020. You can listen to that episode. I've done his podcast a couple more times, always amazing conversations. His podcast is one of my favorites. I listen to it all the time.

• 3:25Ryan Holiday?

  I download it when I go on trips and I just listen to it when I'm sitting there on the plane and try not to watch TV, but I do like to listen to Pete Holmes. We had a great conversation in part one. In part two, we're talking about books, talking about this phrase he has written in his mirror, talking about having more compassion for others and his relationship with accomplishment and ambition. And then two jokes that are in Meditations. I actually think the Stoics are very funny. As I said, Pete Holmes had a great show on HBO called Crashing. He's been in a number of stand-up specials. His most recent one, I think, was recorded in Minneapolis. You can watch it on Netflix. It's great. We watched it. We loved it. He has a book called Comedy Sex God. Actually, Comedy Sex God, that's the little play on words there. And he has one of my favorite podcasts, You Made It Weird.

• 4:10Ryan Holiday?

  You can follow Pete on Instagram and on Twitter at Pete Holmes. But in the meantime, just get into this interview because it's great.

• 4:20Ryan Holiday?

  When we kill time, time is killing us. So you never get those three hours back. And I'm not saying you have to be like Mark Wahlberg and get a workout in. But I'm just saying like, what are you gonna do in that time?

• 4:29Speaker 01

  Well, this is interesting. Again, for, for the sake of a lively podcast. I think about this all the time. I alternate between what you're saying. And there are times when I'm really lit up and devouring life. I can get into like what my friends know as a Tony Robbins face. Like I'm like, get up at five and do breath work and cold plunge. And I, I do that stuff even when I don't feel that way, just because I like it. But there's another thing, and I think you're going to agree. If I get a three hour delay, which I often do, not often, but as much as the next, you could walk and read and achieve and all that sort of stuff. But there's also just, well, we could do it right now.

• 5:14Speaker 01

  If it's not in the moment, where is it?

• 5:19Ryan Holiday?

  No, I'm not saying you have to productively use the time. I'm just saying, am I going to spend this time angry? Am I going to spend this time watching the seconds tick by? Like if, if I sat there and meditated for three hours, that would also be great.

• 5:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:31Ryan Holiday?

  Or if I was just chill and had a delightful conversation with the person sitting next to me.

• 5:36Speaker 01

  I knew we were saying the same thing.

• 5:37Ryan Holiday?

  To be there and to be alive as opposed to what, what if you're an anxious person, which I am, or if you're a person who needs to be in control all the time.

• 5:46Speaker 01

  To file it as wasted.

• 5:48Ryan Holiday?

  You're just like, I'm going to kill this time by like, I just go, okay, I'm going to go do something else.

• 5:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:53Ryan Holiday?

  And it could be like, I've always wanted to watch this movie and now I'm going to watch this movie. Like that's something to show for it. If you enjoyed the movie.

• 5:59Speaker 01

  Right, right, right.

• 6:00Ryan Holiday?

  You know?

• 6:01Speaker 01

  Yep, I'm with you. I, I didn't think we were disagreeing as much as I'm like, a delayed flight, I think of them very fondly.

• 6:09Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 6:09Speaker 01

  I sometimes remember the names of people that I talk to. Cause it's a really unique situation. You're in the same boat. You're in the same plane as all these people. And everybody's having different reactions. I think travel is one of those humbling experiences where you really are out of control. And I thrive in those. I do worse when I'm late to the airport. If it was my

• 6:32Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, sure.

• 6:33Speaker 01

  car departing at the wrong time. That's harder for me to be chill. But if a flight is delayed, the thing that I was getting at was like, In the moment, in which I think is our little snapshot of eternity. I think what we call the present, again, this is, everything I'm saying is pretty much Rupert or Eckhart or Ram Dass or all these people, but so it's just going to be a soup. I'll do footnotes at the end. But it's like, the present moment isn't like one frame

• 7:01Ryan Holiday?

  Sure.

• 7:02Speaker 01

  of film with an infinite amount of past behind it and an infinite amount of future in front of it. That's not really our experience. It's, it's, it's the only thing there is. It's eternity.

• 7:16Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 7:16Speaker 01

  It's how, and then the mind interprets that. How much time? One time I was on ketamine and I kept laughing going, and I go, how much time was there between that which is and that which never was?

• 7:28Ryan Holiday?

  Now, how long is the present moment? Is the present moment a moment? Is it a second? Is it a year?

• 7:33Speaker 01

  But also, as soon as the clap is gone.

• 7:35Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 7:36Speaker 01

  It wasn't.

• 7:37Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 7:39Speaker 01

  It makes a lot more sense on drugs. But where that gets useful is if you are delayed and you can sit down. Jesus tells a lot of parables about this, trying to explain how precious. Also Eckhart Tolle, if you have church trauma like I do, a lot of people tell that story about the beggar sitting on the box and he's asking for change. And finally, someone says, what's in the box? And he looks in the box and it's filled with gold. Look to the New Testament for dozens of other parables that are like just trying to say, it's already here, you already have it.

• 8:09Ryan Holiday?

  He's like, tomorrow will take care of itself.

• 8:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, but what are we talking about?

• 8:13Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 8:13Speaker 01

  What we might say in the modern day is like, tomorrow doesn't exist. You know, what are you talking about? Show me tomorrow.

• 8:19Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 8:20Speaker 01

  And show me the you that's worried about that tomorrow. We're getting a little heady. But in the airport, what I was going to say was, you can sit, and again, you could do it right now. We have the hum of the air conditioner. One of the most helpful meditations or just kind of practices is going like, hear the sound of the, of the air conditioning and like, Try to, this is again Rupert, try to put like an imaginary hand and touch what is the sound made of?

• 8:46Ryan Holiday?

  Hmm.

• 8:46Speaker 01

  Like, what is it?

• 8:47Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 8:48Speaker 01

  What makes a sound? What make, you can do it with your eyes open. What makes the sight of Ryan? What makes the feelings in my body? And they're all made of the knowing of them.

• 8:58Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 8:59Speaker 01

  And a delay at the airport is a really good opportunity to trip out and listen to the commotion and the, sort of the white noise of an airport and just go, this is me. This is made of me.

• 9:13Ryan Holiday?

  I flew into Newark yesterday, or no, sorry, last week. I flew into Newark last week and I, I was walking out and I realized, oh, I slept, right? Like, I, I spend, I had a flight that was supposed to take off at 10 and we took off at 4, 5 a.m. Like, five years ago. And I, I walked by it and I was like, I slept right there.

• 9:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:32Ryan Holiday?

  And I had a fond feeling about it.

• 9:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:34Ryan Holiday?

  That I certainly did not have in the, in that moment. But realizing, okay, five years later, all I can think of is like, remember when I spent the night at the airport? That was crazy.

• 9:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 9:43Ryan Holiday?

  And actually, I was coming home to close on this whole building.

• 9:47Speaker 01

  Oh, wow.

• 9:48Ryan Holiday?

  And so like, I thought I was gonna miss the signing, which in retrospect is so silly. Like, they don't, like, you miss the, the signings don't matter now.

• 9:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:54Ryan Holiday?

  The pandemic revealed you can just do them in DocuSign. But like, it was like, I gotta get to this meeting. If I don't get to this meeting, this thing won't happen.

• 10:01Speaker 01

  It's a little ceremony.

• 10:02Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah. It's a stupid thing and then they slide the keys across the table. Again, all of this can happen asynchronously, but it just didn't then. But like, I, I tortured myself through that eight hours at the airport in a way that I didn't need to.

• 10:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:18Ryan Holiday?

  That now, in retrospect, I clearly think of fondly.

• 10:22Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 10:22Ryan Holiday?

  Why couldn't I have given myself more of that gift now?

• 10:25Speaker 01

  Well, that was in my, my book. There are a couple of ideas that I uncovered for myself in my book. I'm sure you have dozens and dozens. I have one book.

• 10:35Ryan Holiday?

  I meant to bring it. I was looking for it in my office.

• 10:36Speaker 01

  Oh, no, please. It's right here.

• 10:40Speaker 01

  But you know, the feeling, it's like you write a whole book and then, or I do a whole hour of stand up. And there's a couple of things that you're like, or you do a million podcasts and you're like, there's a couple of moments. One of the ones in my book that, you know, if I asked ChatGPT to summarize my book, I would hope it would include this. I actually did, and I did a great job, but it didn't include this is good episode is the idea that when we watch television, we want stuff to happen and we want stuff to go wrong. And then the trick is to, because I know exactly what you're talking about. Every time I'm at, I think it was O'Hare, it is O'Hare. One time it snowed so much, I had to sleep at O'Hare. And when I'm there in O'Hare, I look around and I'm like, that's where I slept. And it was a good episode.

• 11:23Speaker 01

  So we talked about this once, you and I, I was like, is this a good book title? Because I'm fascinated with book titles, nostalgia for the present. And I was like, that's all right. It sounds like a guy trying to sell a book, to be honest. But nostalgia for the present is a real idea. It's like, can we nudge that up?

• 11:38Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 11:38Speaker 01

  In real time, can you say good episode while it's happening?

• 11:41Ryan Holiday?

  The way you would title that book now, especially if you wanted it to be like, like a Mel Robbins book or something, you'd call it like, you'll love this later.

• 11:48Speaker 01

  You'll love this later.

• 11:49Ryan Holiday?

  That's what I would title that book.

• 11:51Speaker 01

  You'll love this later. Did she write Let Them?

• 11:54Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 11:54Speaker 01

  I just started reading it in a, in a coffee shop. And you ever read, look, I don't know anything about Mel Robbins. I just, I saw the title, I assumed it was like fluff. It is light. I don't find it to be like dense. And I'm like, oh, goddamn it.

• 12:10Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 12:10Speaker 01

  You know what I mean?

• 12:10Ryan Holiday?

  No, I've just said like, thank you, Mel. There are certain, there are certain self-help books that are like men, and then there's certain that are sort of universal, like, like for everyone.

• 12:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:18Ryan Holiday?

  And I've just, I've just been on these planes. I've seen so many women reading Mel Robbins books who I like. And I was just like, that's how you would make that book seem like, oh yeah, I'm going on vacation. I don't read a lot. I'll read this.

• 12:30Speaker 01

  You'll love this later.

• 12:30Ryan Holiday?

  You'll love this later. And my books have benefited from this. You want like a little mantra or expression that even if you don't read the whole thing, you're like, oh yeah, I get the basic point, which is like, hey, if you're gonna-

• 12:41Speaker 01

  The Body Keeps the Score.

• 12:42Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah. Which is like the densest, most fucked up book you could ever read. It's about like generational trauma.

• 12:48Speaker 01

  Yeah. But you call it The Body Keeps the Score and you're like, that's a secret. I need to know that.

• 12:52Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 12:53Speaker 01

  You'll love this later. Can I have that?

• 12:55Ryan Holiday?

  Go for it.

• 12:55Speaker 01

  It's a great idea. I'll just email it to myself. Most of my emails are to myself.

• 12:59Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 13:02Speaker 01

  I also thought about calling one. Yes, thank you. I don't know. I don't know how Malcolm Gladwell does it. He writes a book called Blink and everyone buys it.

• 13:09Ryan Holiday?

  It's because Malcolm Gladwell is a legacy. That's like, he's like a rock band from the eighties. Like, he was in a different world when there were multiple book chains and books got covered. Yeah. He writes for the New Yorker. It's a different thing.

• 13:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:22Ryan Holiday?

  There used to be a thing called the big idea book and you could just, it could be called like Strategy. Or it could be called like Blink, or it could be like The Wake Up Effect. You know, like some made up like concept and people would be like, I already that. And now people are too busy and also there's, most of those books can be summarized in a 60 second TikTok.

• 13:41Speaker 01

  Right.

• 13:42Ryan Holiday?

  So like, you, you have to, now it, it just has to be a different thing. It's a, books play a different role in the culture and in dissemination of ideas. And so you, you just, I mean, some people can do it, like Robert Greene's doing a book on the sublime. Yeah. You know, like have a first time author, take a crack at that.

• 13:59Speaker 01

  Right.

• 13:59Ryan Holiday?

  And see if they can, see, watch it sell six copies.

• 14:02Speaker 01

  Right, right, right.

• 14:02Ryan Holiday?

  You know, and Roberts will sell a million.

• 14:04Speaker 01

  You just sort of broke my heart though, because one of the things I don't like, and by the way, I paid $40 for the Let Them audiobook. So like, I'm in, Mel. This isn't shade. I've even done it. I was with my manager last night and he was kind of being my manager and I thought, let him, let him, let him kind of, meaning, you know, he just kind of talks and I'm like, maybe it gets a little fluffy.

• 14:28Ryan Holiday?

  I'm like, yeah. And that, and like, so there's this passage at the beginning of Meditations from Marcus Realist, like, today you're going to meet people who like suck and are dishonest and shitty and all this other stuff. He's basically saying, but then, and so it seems like depressing and cynical, but what he's basically saying is like, that's their job. Your job is to not be like that. Count yourself lucky that you didn't get the shit job. You didn't get the shit part in the play.

• 14:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:52Ryan Holiday?

  You're the good guy, not the villain. Let them do their thing. And yeah, sometimes I go, this is just, not just like this is their job, like literally your manager or whatever, but it's like, this is a long winded person.

• 15:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:03Ryan Holiday?

  This is a person who has to make light of everything. This is an extremely sensitive person.

• 15:07Speaker 01

  Right.

• 15:08Ryan Holiday?

  This is them doing what they do.

• 15:10Speaker 01

  Right. What am I going to do?

• 15:11Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah. And also I could try to make them not do that and probably have zero chance of success. Or, you know, like, I'm, I'm feel like I'm pretty good when I talk to old people being like, this is, they're gonna tell me this story again, you know, like, or they're gonna forget where they're going and it's gonna go into this other thing. And that's what I signed up for when I agreed to have this conversation. Not in a negative way, just like, like, like, you're doing you and I sought you out. Why am I trying to bring you back?

• 15:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:38Ryan Holiday?

  To this point, as if we're gonna win this conversation. Winning the conversation is that I'm talking to an 80 year old. Let's hear some 80 year old.

• 15:46Speaker 01

  Let's hear an 80 year old.

• 15:47Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 15:48Speaker 01

  That's what we ordered.

• 15:48Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 15:49Speaker 01

  Here it is.

• 15:49Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 15:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, thank you.

• 15:51Ryan Holiday?

  The stones go, why are you expecting figs in winter? That's their expression.

• 15:55Speaker 01

  Don't go to the hardware store for milk.

• 15:57Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, like, you've known this person your whole life. You know that as good as they are, they're extremely fragile. Or they, in the end, they'll do the selfish thing. Or what, like, this is them, for better or for worse.

• 16:08Speaker 01

  Well, I, okay, so, one of the things written on my mirror is, don't get mad learning something you already knew.

• 16:14Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 16:15Speaker 01

  And that's true. And we can hold that. And then the great thing about having this somatic, embodied, emotionally brilliant wife is she goes, and don't be mad at yourself for being mad at learning something you already knew. So you have to, that, that grace that you extend to your parents for disappointing you in the same way, you can extend to yourself and be like, that's also okay. Cause there's something still not fully cooked that I get mad. Like, it's tricky, like parental approval does seem to mean more, even though you can go like, but I have plenty of approval. Like, that's the oldest story.

• 16:52Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 16:52Speaker 01

  In the book.

• 16:53Ryan Holiday?

  Right.

• 16:53Speaker 01

  There's one person not standing up for the standing ovation.

• 16:57Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 16:57Speaker 01

  And you're like, right. So it's, unfortunately, you can't think your way through that. You kinda have to.

• 17:02Ryan Holiday?

  No, that's true. It's like, hey, it's reasonable that it's that way and it's reasonable that you are reacting this way. There's kind of this higher, lower self and you can accept the lower self and still aspire to the higher self, but just not kick yourself for not always being there.

• 17:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:16Ryan Holiday?

  Accept it and accept yourself when you can't accept it.

• 17:31Speaker 01

  Every book I'm looking at, like the ABs Diet, there's no way, and this is one of the crises, I guess you could say, that we're facing is like, the ABs Diet, without a doubt, could be summarized by ChatGPT.

• 17:44Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 17:45Speaker 01

  And might even be better, like, stop eating this, this, and this, and this, and do this, and this, and this. I did that with the Glucose Revolution. Will you just tell me?

• 17:53Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 17:53Speaker 01

  What I should do? Oh, take, eat fiber before you eat. Thank you. What is being lost, though, and this is being lost in myself, like I was, I was saying once, in, in defense of TikTok, in the 90s or the 2000s, if we wanted to know, is it more fuel efficient to drive with the AC on or with the windows down, like aerodynamics on a road trip? Would watch Mythbusters. It was a 60-minute show.

• 18:21Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 18:21Speaker 01

  And it's 30% commercials or more.

• 18:24Ryan Holiday?

  They're just stringing you along, not getting to the fucking point.

• 18:27Speaker 01

  And now it's a TikTok and someone goes, I don't know the answer, but it's like, it's this.

• 18:31Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 18:32Speaker 01

  The problem is, and I think we're, we're starting to infuse this into our experience, is like, sometimes it's just fun to watch Mythbusters, and sometimes it's fun to read the ABs Diet, because how you are and what happens to your heart rate and, and the feeling of allowing someone else's consciousness to take over yours, it feels better than just knowing you should stop eating carbs.

• 18:55Ryan Holiday?

  Just reading is good.

• 18:56Speaker 01

  Reading is good.

• 18:57Ryan Holiday?

  There may be a story in that book, and by the way, most of these books are rejects. This is, there's a company called Books.

• 19:01Speaker 01

  Well, there's an L. Ron Hubbard right by your head, which I thought is really a funny choice.

• 19:04Ryan Holiday?

  So there's a company called Books by the Foot, and they just sell books for things like this. Some of these are books from my friends, some of my, my publishers sent me a bunch, but most of these are like, you're buying them literally by the cubic foot.

• 19:17Speaker 01

  Fast Food Nation, I thought of that last night.

• 19:18Ryan Holiday?

  To fill them up. So these are not my books, and they're all, they can't come out. So this is just a set. But yeah, also, like, some of the most interesting things I've ever learned, that I think about all the time, were in books that. That was a tangent.

• 19:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:34Ryan Holiday?

  And so the idea of just distilling it, just give me, just give me the nut of this thing. And it's like, that's not.

• 19:40Speaker 01

  Chat GPT won't know what would grab you. Like, I've read so many books and I'm sure what stuck with me for 40 years might have been, would certainly have been left out of the summary.

• 19:51Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 19:52Speaker 01

  For sure.

• 19:52Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah. And also, just reading in and of itself is good.

• 19:55Speaker 01

  But to bring it into what I do, going to a comedy show is good. Laughing for an hour is good. Syncing up, not just with me, but with an audience is good. And, you know, you can also watch clips of me on TikTok and that will be the momentary little thing. That's fine, I suppose, but it's, but you know, the, the big picture thing is better.

• 20:19Ryan Holiday?

  I just think, like, for instance, speed, speed reading is one of the most nonsensical things that I've ever heard. First off, it's not real. I think it's a giant scam. But the idea of like, like, nobody's like, let me show you how to have sex faster. Or like, here's how you can scarf your food down and barely taste it, but you'll still get all the nutrients.

• 20:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:39Ryan Holiday?

  Like, it is a pleasurable, beneficial.

• 20:43Speaker 01

  Right.

• 20:44Ryan Holiday?

  Historically proven way to stretch your empathy, stretch your understanding of the world, learn things, decompress, disconnect. It, it is a thing you should enjoy doing. Now, if you don't enjoy doing it, you don't need to do it. There's other ways you can learn things.

• 21:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:03Ryan Holiday?

  But the idea of like, I love reading so much, I wanna fast forward through it is ridiculous. Like, you're missing the point.

• 21:11Speaker 01

  Let's have sex faster. You're right. And we all know, it turns out these things take practice, though. We know cooking a meal is like great for digestion and stuff. And you're gonna appreciate it so much more. We are now just post mating. Chelsea Peretti has this great joke I love where she goes, what happened that every meal I'm like, what would a king eat? And I'm like, we're figuring out slowly that what we want isn't obviously what we need. It's not even what we really want. And I, I'm one of these completely, I have no evidence to back this up other than my inherent optimism. I think we're gonna start figuring that out. I think AI, I think all this stuff is gonna help us realize that all the donuts in the world isn't the answer.

• 21:55Speaker 01

  And there'd still be this yearning and it'll help us see it more clearly.

• 21:59Ryan Holiday?

  It's not quite a bit, but I feel like we don't talk enough about how like bringing donuts to something is actually rude. You're like here, eat this thing you shouldn't eat, that no one feels better after eating. I feel like, like it's a microaggression. Microaggression is not using the wrong pronoun. Microaggression is bringing, it's like, it'd be like just giving out cigarettes. Like, why are you doing this? Like, we shouldn't do it.

• 22:23Speaker 01

  It's a crash.

• 22:24Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 22:25Speaker 01

  That's very funny. I'm with you. It's not quite a bit because if anything about stand-up trends, I mean, that's a huge part. I don't spend a lot of time thinking about that. But if you want to write a joke about how you should bring donuts to everything, there's your mailbox. That's the bit. Like, you can't fill an arena saying, don't bring donuts. You can, take it from me, you can fill a small theater.

• 22:54Speaker 01

  But if you want to say, why are we only bringing donuts to sad things?

• 22:58Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 22:59Speaker 01

  Bring donuts to everything? I mean, sold out.

• 23:02Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, it's like when you're telling people what they wanted to do already, that's, that's exponential. And when you're challenging them, like, I think it's so funny, people like, because my stuff is done well, they go, oh, he just, he just did this for the money, you know? And it's like, yeah, I picked this obscure school of ancient philosophy because I thought it was my, my rocket ship to the top. Like, I couldn't have picked a less attractive thing.

• 23:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 23:25Ryan Holiday?

  And, and like, so sometimes people will be like, oh, they're just selling out. It's like, do you know how hard they're working to get people? Like, I think you think I have a headwind or a tailwind, and I don't think you realize how, what a headwind this person is actually working with.

• 23:38Speaker 01

  No, it's true. It's funny that I also wrote down the book, you'll love this later. That is me trying to be like, is this what you want?

• 23:47Speaker 01

  But yeah, who cares?

• 23:48Ryan Holiday?

  Maybe it was when you were interviewing Taylor Tomlinson, you said something that I, like, it caught me and I thought about it a lot since. She said something and then you were like, no, I am one of the greats.

• 23:57Speaker 01

  Oh, wow.

• 23:58Ryan Holiday?

  And you had this interesting discussion about it, but like, I think if people hear someone going like, I'm one of the best, I'm one of the best to ever do what I do, or I'm one of the greats, that feels like immediately. Egotistical.

• 24:09Speaker 01

  It's horrible. I mean, out of context, I'm like, I don't know.

• 24:12Ryan Holiday?

  Right, right.

• 24:13Speaker 01

  I don't know about that.

• 24:14Ryan Holiday?

  But the discussion you ended up having was fascinating. I think you were like, because you get to do what you do. You get to do the thing professionally.

• 24:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:21Ryan Holiday?

  And 99% of people don't get to do it. So statistically, you already.

• 24:27Speaker 01

  Oh, I see.

• 24:28Ryan Holiday?

  I think that's how you were saying, and then also, I think that you enjoy it, that you're the best version of yourself.

• 24:33Speaker 01

  I can defend it certainly. I would say that if I didn't think I was one of the greats, meaning in this context, I'm like, obviously, there's these incredible outlying savants. I think that the perspective of I'm one of the greats is a measuring of the degree to which I'm doing the comedy that I would like to see.

• 24:56Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 24:56Speaker 01

  And when I think, and I'm the only one that can gauge that, so I can't even listen if you say I'm one of the greats, or if you say I'm not one of the greats, I'm going like, if I was in the audience, and I mean this very firmly, this is exactly what I would want the show to be.

• 25:13Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 25:14Speaker 01

  Without blemish.

• 25:16Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 25:16Speaker 01

  Exactly what I want. And in that sense, I agree with myself.

• 25:21Ryan Holiday?

  No, I'm not asking you to defend it because.

• 25:23Speaker 01

  No, I know. I was defending it for fun.

• 25:25Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, it was great. Like, I was like, oh, that's a really interesting way to think about it because one of the things that Stoic talks about, that Stoic talks about is like, if you want to win, pick a race that only you can win. If you're like, no, no, I have to be the best, and by that, I mean, I have to beat everyone, then like, you better hope you're the most genetically gifted, you better hope that the actual fastest person is sick that day.

• 25:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:45Ryan Holiday?

  You better hope that you better hope a bunch of things go right.

• 25:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:48Ryan Holiday?

  And sometimes you get it.

• 25:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:50Ryan Holiday?

  And even if you do get it, you only get it briefly.

• 25:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:53Ryan Holiday?

  But if you're like, no, no, winning for me is like, you set up your own set of standards, you set up your own definition, then it's much more likely you're going to have that. And then you are one of one, and you are truly one of the only people to do it that way.

• 26:08Speaker 01

  That's an even better explanation of what I'm saying. It's like, in being Pete, I'm the best at that.

• 26:15Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 26:16Speaker 01

  That's ever been. And that's a Bill Hicks thing. He goes, if you're being 100% yourself, you'll be the only one that can do that, and you'll have supply and demand covered. It's also been something that I've been thinking about. I don't do a lot of psychedelics, but I think I thought of this when I was on psychedelics. I know, the guy that clearly does a lot of-- that's not true, I don't. But it's also written on my bathroom mirror. It says flawless, meaning Pete is being Pete flawlessly. And I picture myself winning an Oscar. Let's say I am mad that the flight is delayed. And I picture like Barbara Walters interviewing me and being like, how did you know to eat that entire pizza to make yourself feel better? And I'm like, I just did what came naturally.

• 26:59Speaker 01

  And like, if you think about like a beautiful Philip Seymour Hoffman movie where you like, ah, like, think about somebody watching you. Yeah. And then, let's say my mother does something that upsets me. I picture my mom winning an Oscar. It's like at the end of your life, you're brought out on stage and it's the Academy Awards and everyone's giving you a standing ovation. And they just couldn't believe-- and I do like doing it with like, how did you know it would be so uniquely disappointing to your son when you said that? And it's like, I just, I just did what, it was my instinct, like every great actor. Yeah. But that's a kind of a cheeky way to make fun of my mom, but really it's really helpful to go, you're doing this flawlessly. Yeah.

• 27:40Speaker 01

  And apparently we need you to be this, because I believe that everybody is a response of a system. My mom is not an isolated individual. She is a part of this mosaic that's perfect. That's the other, I'm trying to work it out. I already did this, like, meaning of life slash God slash whatever joke has been something that is really thrilling to me that people like when I do it. Because that's what I've always wanted to do. And I'm like, okay, I have this one. It's what I'm gonna do tonight. But then I need to write the next one. And I'm like, well, maybe I'll move away from using words like God and stuff.

• 28:20Speaker 01

  Because the thing I really wanna say is kind of what we're saying here, and I've said it before, but it's, if I were you, I'd be you. And maybe you've heard me say that. I find that just incredibly powerful. It's like somebody that you really disagree with. You're like, it's the most obvious thing in the world. If you grew up in their body, with their genetics, with their parents, with their school, with their trauma, if everything that had happened to them happened to you, you would be them.

• 28:48Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 28:49Speaker 01

  And there's something really like, that's compassion.

• 28:52Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 28:52Speaker 01

  It's also self-compassion. If I were me, I'd be me. It's like, yeah, everything that happened to me, every trauma, every experience, every heartbreak, made me into me. And then you start to see how everybody and everything is unfolding lawfully.

• 29:06Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 29:06Speaker 01

  That doesn't mean logically or fairly.

• 29:09Ryan Holiday?

  Or fun.

• 29:09Speaker 01

  Or fun or good. It's just, it's another way of saying, yes, thank you.

• 29:14Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, and no, I just was really struck by that conversation because there's also this thing where it's like, look, you've got a show on HBO, you tour, you've done all these things, like, how elite does this definition have to be? And why do we make it? Why do we continually move it out of reach? So we can feel shitty?

• 29:32Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 29:32Ryan Holiday?

  And, and there's also just some level of like, how many people would kill? I think about it, I've said this to someone, I was talking to someone, they're like, not only would they kill to be you, they would kill to have gone to high school with you.

• 29:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:46Ryan Holiday?

  Like, they would be telling people, oh, I know that person.

• 29:49Speaker 01

  Right, right, right.

• 29:50Ryan Holiday?

  Like.

• 29:50Speaker 01

  That's a gratitude exercise you're trying to get.

• 29:52Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, and, and then we're like, feeling insecure. We go, I'm not enough.

• 29:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:56Ryan Holiday?

  And.

• 29:56Speaker 01

  Well, that's the seeking and resisting.

• 29:58Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 29:58Speaker 01

  The ego would rather be miserable than stop existing.

• 30:01Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 30:02Speaker 01

  And if, you know, if you said, I've done enough, you sort of vanish.

• 30:06Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 30:06Speaker 01

  You know, and, and people, that's intolerable. So you, you move the goalposts and you go, yeah, but I don't have an EGOT.

• 30:12Ryan Holiday?

  Compared to so-and-so, it's nothing.

• 30:15Speaker 01

  Just, just stop it.

• 30:18Speaker 01

  Just stop it.

• 30:31Ryan Holiday?

  All right. So on your podcast, you always ask people when they laugh the hardest.

• 30:34Speaker 01

  Yes. Can I add one thing to what we just said? I don't know why, but I feel like you'll like this. We've been talking about the top of the mountain.

• 30:41Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 30:41Speaker 01

  I'm going to come down to the earth and just say something fun. Sometimes people go like, there's no such thing as making it. I'm like, yes, there is. Like, there is?

• 30:50Ryan Holiday?

  Of course there is.

• 30:51Speaker 01

  And it's fun.

• 30:52Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 30:52Speaker 01

  And you know, and it doesn't have to be where I am. There's a lot of people below me that have also made it. But you get this sense of like, one day you wake up and you're just like, I'm doing it and that's worth that. This is sort of in defense of achieving. As much as I like to say like, oh, just surrender and surrender. I'm also like, no, it's fun to chalk up your hands and fucking climb the structure.

• 31:15Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 31:15Speaker 01

  And when people are like, there's no making it. It's always the next thing. I'm like, no, there's a difference. I've been at a lot of different, and I'm not even talking about hotels or flights or anything like, or fancy food or knowing celebrities. There's a feeling where you go, I answered the call.

• 31:33Ryan Holiday?

  Did you make it into the league or not? Like, there's a certain number of people in the NBA at one time.

• 31:39Speaker 01

  Get in the league.

• 31:40Ryan Holiday?

  And when you, when you're there, and then if you make it long enough, you, you like, most of the professional sports, if you, there's a certain number of years you play and then you qualify for like a pension, right? Like that, like to do that is an incredible achievement. And just because you didn't win a championship, doesn't mean you're a fucking loser.

• 31:56Speaker 01

  Yes, yes.

• 31:57Ryan Holiday?

  You fucking did it and you did it the highest level for an extended period of time. That's great.

• 32:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:01Ryan Holiday?

  And it's funny, I was talking to someone the other day who was like, they identified as a professional athlete, but they'd only played like minor league baseball.

• 32:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:08Ryan Holiday?

  And like, there was a part of me that was like, that doesn't count. And I was like, wait, no, you were getting paid to play baseball. The amount of people in the world that would be desperate to just do that for one pitch.

• 32:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 32:20Ryan Holiday?

  Is like incredible.

• 32:21Speaker 01

  No, absolutely.

• 32:22Ryan Holiday?

  And you did it. You fucking did it. You earned the thing. Give it to yourself.

• 32:26Speaker 01

  It can be your version of making it.

• 32:28Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 32:28Speaker 01

  But I'm like, you'll know.

• 32:30Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 32:31Speaker 01

  And it's nice.

• 32:32Ryan Holiday?

  Like, when can you call yourself a writer, right? Or like an actor, when do they get to say, I'm a writer, director? Or I'm a, sorry, I'm an actor, director, right? It's like, Yes, on some level, there's no like, club and you have to like, qualify or whatever. Like, a millionaire's, do you have a $1 million and $1? But, at the same time, like, you'll know. Like, you'll know, it's, there's people who are posing, and then there's people who are writers, because they write professionally and people consume their writing. It's not a black and white thing, but you'll know.

• 33:07Speaker 01

  Yes, you'll know. That's the same with comics, for sure.

• 33:09Ryan Holiday?

  Like, I'm an entrepreneur. No, you know. Like, it's a pretty big club, and, welcome. When you do the thing, you can be in the club.

• 33:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. And if we weren't keeping you out of the club, it wouldn't be a club worth being in, because it'll feel so nice.

• 33:22Ryan Holiday?

  If it wasn't hard, if it wasn't discouraging, everyone would do it, and it would be worthless.

• 33:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 33:28Ryan Holiday?

  Like, there's a reason that it's, scarcity and difficulty create the value that you then seek.

• 33:35Speaker 01

  That's right. That's right.

• 33:37Ryan Holiday?

  So anyways, on your, on your show, you always ask people, like, when they laugh the hardest. And so whenever I interview comedians, I tell them that there's this stoic named Chrysippus, who dies of laughter.

• 33:46Speaker 01

  Oh, wow.

• 33:47Ryan Holiday?

  And, we're told he's sitting-

• 33:48Speaker 01

  The ultimate compliment.

• 33:49Ryan Holiday?

  We're told, he's on the, he's, he's on the list of unusual deaths on Wikipedia.

• 33:54Speaker 01

  Oh, wow.

• 33:54Ryan Holiday?

  Which is quite an accomplishment, I would say. So he's sitting on his porch, and we're told that a donkey walks up and starts eating figs out of his garden. And he, he says to the person who runs up to, like, I'm so sorry for my donkey, and he says, "You should give that donkey some wine to wash down those figs." And then he starts laughing at his joke so hard that he dies. And so, I, I, my endless search is to find out what the fuck this joke means.

• 34:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:22Ryan Holiday?

  And then also, I just enjoy, it's not just that he died of laughter, it's that he died of laughter at his own joke.

• 34:29Speaker 01

  At his own jokes, at his own bad joke.

• 34:31Ryan Holiday?

  Yes, something, there's something sage-like about that.

• 34:34Speaker 01

  Yeah. That's a guy, realize, I mean, like, the ultimate joke, I hope I'm not forcing this, this is what it made me think, is that God split into multiple things. That's a joke. So that's the cosmic joke.

• 34:47Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 34:47Speaker 01

  Is that I appear to be over here, and you appear to be over there. If you think of this as God's dream, that's a joke. We're all made of the mind of God. So it's funny that I think I'm over here, and I'm worried that I'm gonna die, and you're worried that you're gonna die, and we're all talking about making it. That is funny. So he might have been dipping into, like-

• 35:05Speaker 01

  That donkey eating figs and drinking wine is the same as me.

• 35:08Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. We're all asses.

• 35:11Speaker 01

  We're all asses and it's all, it's again, a very stereotypical psychedelic experiences. Like anything is everything.

• 35:19Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 35:20Speaker 01

  And he's like, anything is everything, this donkey. And that, that could click in such a way that it would be an enlightened kind of laugh.

• 35:27Ryan Holiday?

  Well, it reminds me of your thing about like, if, if you think that we're all monkeys on a rock in space.

• 35:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:33Ryan Holiday?

  Everything is funny.

• 35:34Speaker 01

  Everything's funny.

• 35:35Ryan Holiday?

  Everything is funny.

• 35:36Speaker 01

  Right.

• 35:37Ryan Holiday?

  Somebody made all this, we stacked these things on top of each other.

• 35:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:41Ryan Holiday?

  We all had to be in the same place at the same time.

• 35:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:43Ryan Holiday?

  And we go and watch movies and like, it's all so dumb and ridicu- like, like Seinfeld has a joke about how, he's like, horses, they're like big riding dogs.

• 35:53Speaker 01

  They're big riding dogs. It's great.

• 35:55Ryan Holiday?

  And you're just like, yeah, everything is ridiculous.

• 35:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:57Ryan Holiday?

  Like, I just think of the seriousness of people getting on horses for hundreds of years.

• 36:02Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 36:03Ryan Holiday?

  Like.

• 36:03Speaker 01

  They're big riding dogs.

• 36:04Ryan Holiday?

  And then you watch, you watch like sci-fi movies and they get on worms and, and you're just like, they're taking this seriously as a mode of transportation.

• 36:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:12Ryan Holiday?

  Like, you're just on the back of this wild animal, so dumb.

• 36:16Speaker 01

  Well, yeah.

• 36:16Ryan Holiday?

  I just think of the silliness of life. Maybe that's what he's laughing at.

• 36:19Speaker 01

  For sure. I mean, this came to mind. It's like, I've never done this on stage. I don't think it's that funny. But, you know, back when it was new that you couldn't bring water on a plane.

• 36:27Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 36:28Speaker 01

  A TSA agent, this is, this is only slightly true, but I'm going to tell it the slightly true, better way. She goes, you can't bring that water on the plane. And I'm like, yes, I can. And then I drank it. That's, the water is still on the plane.

• 36:43Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 36:47Speaker 01

  I know that's dumb, but that is give that donkey some wine.

• 36:50Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 36:50Speaker 01

  I also, you know, he's, he's tapping into like, some comedians don't like, like dissecting what a joke is.

• 36:56Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 36:56Speaker 01

  I think it's helpful. It's an incongruity. It's incongruous.

• 37:00Ryan Holiday?

  It's ridiculous.

• 37:01Speaker 01

  To give a donkey wine. So that's a joke. It's absolutely a joke.

• 37:06Ryan Holiday?

  I just also love like, I can't, that's gotta be close to the best.

• 37:10Speaker 01

  If I die laughing now.

• 37:13Speaker 01

  Twice that joke killed somebody.

• 37:14Ryan Holiday?

  Well, yeah, why is irony funny? Why are coincidences funny? It's just because it's unexpected and weird. But also, I just love the idea of that's like the best way to go, right? Like, you laugh so hard you die.

• 37:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, I, I think, I mean, having a heart attack and laughing very, it seemed very similar to me. It's, there's like a lot of wheezing. I bet he was very red veins in the neck. It doesn't sound that, because then what's happening? It's like choking on your favorite food.

• 37:41Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 37:41Speaker 01

  You know what I mean? You're still choking.

• 37:44Ryan Holiday?

  Right, yeah, yeah. I guess I'm imagining he's just laughing and then dead.

• 37:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:47Ryan Holiday?

  You're right. Like, he's laughed so hard he gives himself a brain aneurysm and then is gone.

• 37:51Speaker 01

  Probably what it was.

• 37:51Ryan Holiday?

  As opposed to this, like.

• 37:53Speaker 01

  Ex- fixation.

• 37:54Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 37:55Speaker 01

  Yes. You laugh and you dislodge something and you, and you die. That sounds pretty good.

• 38:00Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 38:00Speaker 01

  Going out like that. I mean, I think about this a lot. I love that. I was just talking to somebody about the oldest joke they've ever found. And it was, you know, probably Babylon or something, or Samaria. And they found it on a scroll and it was like, and it's about something awful because the past was awful. And they go, this guy buys a slave from a slave trader. And a week later, the slave dies. So the man goes back to the slave trader and says, hey, that slave you sold me died. And the slave trader says, that's weird. He never did anything like that when I had him. That's the oldest joke we have. And it's so funny that like, it's obviously unsuccessfully, but it's trying to soften a horror.

• 38:39Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 38:40Speaker 01

  It speaks to kind of like a.

• 38:41Ryan Holiday?

  They both know this is bad. Like the, what the, at some level, what they're doing fucking sucks.

• 38:47Speaker 01

  I'm telling you, dude, it's everything I do, I do for my family. Like, to me, a good joke, a good comedy, good art, and I'm not, I like Marc Maron. I'm not Marc Maron going up and being curmudgeon and trying to tear down systems or, or Janine Graffalo. Or I'm not going at it that way. And I like all of those people. I'm just saying, like, offensive comedy to me is comedy where you come in thinking that food is great, sex is great, winning is great. And someone tells you food is great, sex is great, and winning is great. And you, and you leave.

• 39:23Ryan Holiday?

  Does it question none of your assumptions?

• 39:26Speaker 01

  What a missed opportunity to talk about, that joke is talking about the horrors of slavery in their unconscious. And when I'm talking about Mark Wahlberg says, everything I do is for my family, not to toot my own, but in the way that I'm

• 39:40Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 39:41Speaker 01

  Doing what I want to be doing is I'm saying it actually, I'm a very sensitive person and it really hurts my feelings when people say things like that. It makes me very, very sad. And I think it makes you sad too. And I don't mean you, I just mean, I think it makes us sad. So if we could like dislodge the rock

• 40:02Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 40:03Speaker 01

  in the river and like it while we're doing it. That's why I've tried to write jokes about a lot of like just unconscious delusions that we have. And don't think, I don't think I have those.

• 40:15Ryan Holiday?

  Sure.

• 40:16Speaker 01

  I'm built on leaky buckets from here.

• 40:18Ryan Holiday?

  Well, there's, there's two jokes in meditations. One is intentional, one isn't. And I think one is, one is offensive for like offensive reasons. And then the other is offensive, I think, because of what it challenges. So the, the offensive one, he, he's cribbing someone else, but there was an, an old joke even then that was, um, this guy is so rich, uh, has so much stuff that he has no place to shit. He's like joking about the rich man who's so rich, he has no place to shit, that his house is just filled with stuff, has no place to shit. So it's got a curse word in it. It's whatever. I think it's mildly funny. My favorite joke in meditations, which I think he's deadly serious when he's saying, he goes, he goes, ask yourself, am I afraid of death because I won't be able to do this anymore? And this implying whatever

• 41:03Ryan Holiday?

  dumb shit you're doing.

• 41:05Speaker 01

  Oh, that's funny.

• 41:05Ryan Holiday?

  You're like, I'm, I'm afraid, like, I don't want to die. I want to live forever. And you're currently at the DMV.

• 41:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, you hate it.

• 41:12Ryan Holiday?

  And like, life actually sucks in some way, or your life sucks.

• 41:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:16Ryan Holiday?

  And then you're like, but immortality is the key. And he's, he's questioning whether this thing that you prize is actually so worth prizing.

• 41:25Speaker 01

  It's brilliant.

• 41:31Ryan Holiday?

  Thanks so much for listening. If you could rate this podcast and leave a review on iTunes, that would mean so much to us and it would really help the show. We appreciate it, and I'll see you next episode.