Pod Insights The Happiness Lab with Dr. Laurie Santos How to Experience the Joy of Giving Right Now About this episode According to the science, it really is better to give than receive. Donating a dollar; sharing a kind word or lending someone a hand changes lives, but can also hugely boost your happiness. So we're teaming up with other podcasts from Hidden Brain to Revisionist History to ask you to give to a charity helping some of the poorest people around. We're calling it #PodsFightPoverty.
Go to givedirectly.org/happinesslab https://www.givedirectly.org/happinesslab2025/ right now and give whatever you can. And the first $500,000 we donate will be matched thanks to our friends at Giving Multiplier https://givingmultiplier.org/!
Even a small donation will make you feel good and have a much larger impact on the world than you thought possible. To help inspire you, this special episode examines the science of giving and shares stories of heartwarming and impactful acts of kindness.
See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Transcript 10,895 words · 12 speakers
Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:00 Laurie Santos? This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.
0:04 Speaker 01 This is Jacob Goldstein. When you're a business owner interested in expanding to new markets, there's a lot to consider and countless questions to answer before making the call. The most important one being, are you ready? That's where ChatGPT comes in. Give it a goal, add your files, and ask chat to help you map out different scenarios for the future of your business. So when growth is on the table, you've got an expansion plan ready to implement. Get started today at chatgpt.com.
0:32 Laurie Santos? This episode is brought to you by Choiceology, an original podcast from Charles Schwab, hosted by the amazing Katie Milkman, behavioral scientist and author of the bestselling book, How to Change. Choiceology is a show about the psychology and economics behind our decisions. Each episode shares the latest research in behavioral science and dives into themes like the power of self-control, shaping your mindset for success, navigating new beginnings, and why starting over can feel so hard. Katie talks to authors, athletes, Nobel laureates, and everyday people about why we make irrational choices and how to make better choices to help avoid costly mistakes. You'll learn about tools and strategies to help improve your
1:14 Laurie Santos? decision-making, and a ton of other fantastic things about the mind. Listen and subscribe at schwab.com/podcast, or find it wherever you listen to your shows.
1:31 Laurie Santos? Pushkin.
1:38 Laurie Santos? Hello and welcome to a special edition of the Happiness Lab podcast. I hope all my listeners who celebrate had a happy Thanksgiving. But the day I really look forward to each November is the Tuesday after Thanksgiving. Forget Black Friday and Cyber Monday. My holiday of choice is Giving Tuesday. Giving Tuesday is the global holiday of charitable giving that falls right in the midst of our shopping frenzy, a day that's not about commerce but compassion.
2:06 Laurie Santos? Here at the Happiness Lab, we tend to make a big deal out of Giving Tuesday. Every year, we share a special episode that explores why doing good for others is super good for our own happiness. We also like to give our listeners a chance to team up and donate to a charitable cause that really does good in the world. For the past few years, that charity has been GiveDirectly, a nonprofit that takes your cash and gives it directly to people in extreme poverty to spend as they see fit. But this year, we are going even bigger. We're bringing together the fans of some of my favorite podcasts to raise even more money to fight poverty. Think 10% Happier with Dan Harris, On Purpose with Jay Shetty, Revisionist History, Hidden Brain, How to Be a Better Human, and dozens more.
2:50 Laurie Santos? The campaign even has its own hashtag, PodsFightPoverty. PodsFightPoverty is trying to raise a million dollars this year, enough money to lift several villages in Rwanda out of extreme poverty. If you want to help, head to givedirectly.org/happinesslab to donate what you can. That's givedirectly.org/happinesslab. If you're a fan of this show, you've probably already heard about the great things GiveDirectly can do with a small donation from a listener like you. Take the great work we did earlier this year in collaboration with author and YouTube star John Green. John and I asked you to partner up with GiveDirectly to tackle the deadly disease tuberculosis.
3:28 Speaker 02 Tuberculosis is an airborne disease that usually affects the lungs. If left untreated, tuberculosis usually does result in death. Fortunately, since the 1950s, we've had a cure for tuberculosis. It's a bacterial infection, so the cure is antibiotics given every day over four to six months.
3:44 Laurie Santos? The problem is that many people with TB live in parts of the world where they can't afford these lifesaving drugs. So John and I asked our listeners to help out. With lots of small donations of five or 10 bucks, we raised over $100,000 to fight this disease. That's incredible, right? But what's even more incredible are the stories we heard about what this money did for people living with the disease. Take one recipient, Margaret, a 30-year-old TB patient living in Malawi. Margaret's TB could have easily been cured with a simple antibiotic. But lacking the resources to get treatment, she eventually got sicker and sicker. That is, until she received the cash donation we provided through GiveDirectly.
4:25 Laurie Santos? With that small amount of money, she was able to pay for the bicycle taxi she needed to travel to a far-off clinic, where she was able to finally start her drug treatment. "I was overjoyed when I received the cash transfer," Margaret wrote in her thank you letter to our listeners. "It felt like my life had been given a second chance. I have hope again." Months later, I still think back to Margaret's story whenever I'm having a crappy day. Taking a moment to remember what the five or 10 bucks we collectively shared did, not just for Margaret, but for hundreds of other people who are struggling, that feels amazing. Probably more amazing than any material gift I'll be getting this holiday season. That good feeling is what the rest of this episode is about.
5:07 Laurie Santos? With the help of some amazing fellow podcasters, I'm going to explore the enormous psychological power of giving and receiving. We'll see how small acts of kindness, a spare bit of cash or a tiny gesture of care, can create huge ripples in a person's life. I want these stories to serve as a reminder for something our lying minds often forget: that a great way to treat ourselves is to do a small bit of good for somebody else. To kick off these stories of how doing good can make us feel good, let's look at how receiving an act of kindness can change us. And we'll do that with my first esteemed podcast host guest.
5:42 Speaker 03 Hi, my name's Tim Harford, and I am the host of Cautionary Tales.
5:47 Laurie Santos? Tim is a respected journalist and economist, but his story of being the recipient of kindness goes back to a time before he found fame, working for the BBC or hosting cautionary tales.
5:58 Speaker 03 This story took place nearly a quarter of a century ago. I was visiting a friend in Cameroon.
6:06 Speaker 03 Which is in West Africa, very poor part of the world. I was in my mid twenties and I was on edge because Cameroon was at the time rated as one of the most corrupt countries in the world. And corrupt or not, people there were often really desperate. As a tourist, you feel like you're a target. And so I was always on the lookout. I had just had this sort of suspicion. I went around my travels around Cameroon. I had a great time, was treated wonderfully by everybody I met, but I never lost that feeling of you need to be careful. Then one day I was standing by the roadside in a smallish town called Remenda with a couple of Western friends.
6:51 Speaker 03 And I think we were waiting for a bus, just bought some egg and chips. We're having a good time and we've just walked across country several miles on this dust road. And as we're waiting, a couple of guys zoom up behind us on a motorbike, two guys on one motorbike. I turn around expecting some threat and they stop right in front of me and one of them just hands me something and I look down at it, there's this.
7:21 Speaker 03 And it's a passport. In fact, it's my passport. I mean, I'm completely bewildered. Why is this guy giving me my own passport? And of course I realised what's happened is the passport was in my back pocket and I'd sat down by the roadside miles back and the passport must have fallen out. And these guys have driven along this road on the motorbike. They've spotted a British passport and they've gone all the way down the road looking for the first guy they see who looks British, which is me. And they've even got my photo with my passport. And the amazing thing was they handed it over and then they just drove off. They weren't, they didn't sort of stand around waiting for a tip or a reward or even really a thanks. It was just, you know, there you go. Thought you might need this and off they went.
8:07 Speaker 03 And I realized that this suspicion with which I'd been viewing everybody had been so much the opposite of how these guys had actually behaved. I mean, I would have been even more grateful if I'd had a moment to realize I even had a problem, because if I had been stuck in Cameroon without my passport, that's a big problem. That's gonna, that's gonna cause me a lot of headaches. But they had solved the problem before I even realized they'd solved the problem. They had completely defied my rather uncharitable expectations of the people of Cameroon, and they'd driven off into the sunset without even waiting for a thank you.
8:46 Laurie Santos? It also seems like they did a lot of work. Like, it sounds like they were like chasing you as you're walking around all through the day to try to find you, too.
8:53 Speaker 03 Probably they came a couple of miles on the, on the motorbike. I mean, it was probably 10 or 15 minutes. Maybe, I don't, I don't know at all really how much work they did, but all I know is that they did it. And they could easily have taken that passport and, and thought, well, maybe then, maybe we can turn this into cash somehow. Or even just, maybe we can try and get a tip out of this guy.
9:18 Laurie Santos? Or just left it on the ground, like, oh, well, you know, I don't know this guy yet.
9:21 Speaker 03 Yeah, there's someone else's problem. Yeah, just ignored it, but they didn't.
9:24 Laurie Santos? I mean, I love that story, but it also points out how like so many of our societies are probably much more high trust societies than we assume. Like, so many people are out there doing better things than we think. But I think we have minds that assume people are kind of mistrusting. I actually, unfortunately, Tim, I actually blame the economists on this a little bit, because I feel like at least.
9:42 Speaker 03 Oh, fine. Yeah, sure. We kick the economists.
9:45 Laurie Santos? I mean, at least the standard economists have been telling us for a long time that, you know, we are home economicus. We are these selfish beings who are gonna go out, you know. So maybe the folks who returned your passport would do it if they thought they could get, you know, some cash off you. Or they, you know, maybe they'd get some huge reputational benefits. Someone saw them do it and now, you know, now they kind of like praising them and so on. But they wouldn't just do it just for the good of doing it.
10:07 Speaker 03 Well, I mean, let me push back a little bit. Let me push back a little bit and defend my fellow economists. So the, the classic economic model, all it says is that people have consistent preferences. And it's kind of convenient to assume that those preferences are about consumption. Like, you're trying to spend as little money as possible and get as much stuff as possible for that money. But it doesn't have to be. You could, and I've seen, I've seen some beautiful economic models written where actually. My pleasure is completely dependent on your pleasure, Laurie. Like, the happier, I can just see the glow in your eyes. I know how happy you are, and the happier you are, the happier that makes me. There's nothing in conventional economics that makes that impossible. We tend not to make that assumption because it's kind of, why would you?
10:51 Speaker 03 And so we simplify and we talk about the purchase of goods and services and we ignore the altruistic bit. There's nothing in classical economics that says people can't be altruistic. We, I think, just haven't paid enough attention to that possibility. And because we don't pay attention to the possibility, we just set it to one side.
11:07 Laurie Santos? Are you surprised that we don't think of kind actions as valuable, as impactful as they often are?
11:13 Speaker 03 If I can just be a kind of amateur evolutionary psychologist for a moment. I suppose you might naturally think that we had evolved to be a little bit more suspicious of people, particularly of strangers, because, you know, it's bad to have someone take advantage of you. But actually, of course, we evolved to be to be social beings. And maybe we shouldn't be so surprised that people often behave kindly to each other. I mean, I am aware of some research in psychology. You'll know this kind of work better than than me, Laurie. But we we often fail to generalize. Like, we think, oh, if I found a wallet with like a driving license in it, then, you know, I'd I'd contact the owner or I'd hand it into the police station. Like, yeah, of course, that's what I'd do.
11:57 Speaker 03 But then you ask people, you ask if other people would do that. And we we think, oh, no, other people wouldn't wouldn't do that. And it's not like we think we're better than other people. It's just that the two, the two questions don't don't even overlap. It's almost as though we've got a different circuit in our brain reflecting on how we would behave or reflecting on how we think somebody else will behave.
12:18 Laurie Santos? And this is a challenge for the organization that we've been working with, GiveDirectly. Their philosophy is like, we're just going to give people money directly and let them do with it what they want. That that people in need have the best ideas about how to spend their money to make their situation better. But a lot of the folks who are thinking about giving to give directly often have the following problem, which is like, are people really going to know what to do with the money? Are they going to do something bad? Are they going to buy something frivolous or something like that? It seems like people just don't trust people to make the best decisions. And I feel like this is part of the same kind of bias we have. As undercover economists, how do you think of this bias and where, what are we doing wrong?
12:55 Speaker 03 Give the economists some credit. We definitely trust people to make decisions in their own interests. There are cases where you might go, look, the money's only useful if it's coordinated. So actually, what this village really needs is a bridge or a well. But in general, people are going to be good stewards of their own money and they're going to be good judges of how to spend that money because there's so much they know about their situation, about their context and about their own ambitions that nobody else can know. And if you give them money, then you're putting them in the best possible position to take advantage of their own context and to fulfill their own ambitions.
13:35 Speaker 03 We're sort of trained to believe that if somebody really needs a handout, that must be because they lack judgment, that they have made many poor decisions in the past, otherwise they wouldn't need a handout. But in somewhere like Cameroon, that's definitely not true. There are lots and lots of people in really difficult situations in many countries in the world, and absolutely not because of any bad decisions that they themselves have made. So I think we need to shake off this idea that if someone needs a handout, then by definition, they can't be trusted with the handout. We've got to break out of that because that's just nonsense.
14:14 Laurie Santos? So even an economist says that giving is good for us. If you want to put that advice into effect right away, then consider giving to the Pods Fight Poverty campaign. Just go to givedirectly.org/happinesslab.
14:27 Laurie Santos? The next podcaster to share a story on the power of giving is an old friend of the show.
14:32 Speaker 04 First of all, it's great to see you again.
14:34 Laurie Santos? Yeah, it's been a minute.
14:36 Speaker 04 And has, yeah.
14:37 Laurie Santos? Army veteran JR Martinez was badly wounded in Iraq when the Humvee he was driving hit a roadside bomb. Forced to end his military service, JR entered a dark chapter. But he eventually fought back, building a series of new careers. First as a TV actor, then as a Dancing with the Stars champion, and finally as the host of the inspiring podcast Medal of Honor. JR is a big fan of giving back. He's done an incredible amount of service for the veteran community. But today, he has to share a story not of giving, but of receiving. Specifically, of receiving a life-changing gift that he didn't even know he needed.
15:14 Speaker 04 In 2009, I was asked to do the auction for a veteran's golf outing. And it was going to benefit a nonprofit set up to help service members and their families. And immediately, I was like, of course. Now, I'm not an auctioneer, but sure, I'll get up there and try to do my best. And I was like, well, what are some of the auction items? And they said, this, this, this, this, and a puppy. And so they bring out the puppy. He's eight weeks old, black lab. And I hold him, and I feel this connection. I'm financially going through my budget as a 27-year-old of like, how much could I bid on this puppy?
15:59 Speaker 04 The max was like, I could probably do like 600 bucks. Like, that's the absolute max. So we get there, and immediately, that number has surpassed. We're not at 600. That number has moved on. And so I'm holding the next auction item, this quilt. And I'm ready to move it along. And a lady raises her hand that bidded on the dog and says, may I say something? So we're like, of course. So she comes up to the stage. She says, we love animals. We love dogs. We love this dog. We love this cause. But unfortunately, we have, you know, pets at home, so there's no room for this sweet dog at our house. And she says, so we want to give them, give him to JR.
16:40 Speaker 04 And I'm like that quilt, like, I'm just like now using it to like wipe all the tears and the snot and everything. And I'm in shock. I was still going through my stages of, you know, like, I was mad and I was navigating a lot of emotional things. And they give him to me and I take him home. And Lori, I mean, he helped me heal and, and he was my, he was my companion in all these stages of life that I navigated. And I'm just forever like grateful. And every time I would see the couple that, that, that, that did that gesture for me. I mean, as you can imagine, I always felt forever indebted to them because of, you know, what they gave to me and the gift they gave to me.
17:24 Speaker 04 And when he passed, it was one of the hardest things that I've experienced in my life.
17:30 Laurie Santos? What was his name?
17:30 Speaker 04 Romeo. And I remember like I named him Warrior because I was like, well, it's for wounded warriors. You know, this is like, you know, the mid twenties kid, you know, guy naming a dog, you know? And I was like Warrior. Yeah, you're a warrior. Then I was like, what am I going to call you for short? War? And I was like, well, I don't know. I started noticing this pattern where people would see him and they would just like gravitate to him. And, and I was like, ah, you're no warrior. You're a Romeo. And every time I would look at him, no matter what stage of life that I was in, his look just always reminded me to just be, just to be present, just to be with him, just to be with the environment. Can't tell you how many times I would take him to the park.
18:16 Speaker 04 And we would just sit at the park, just he and I.
18:18 Laurie Santos? It also seemed like you didn't realize at that moment that you really needed this kind gift. But then when it came in your life, it really changed it.
18:25 Speaker 04 I had no clue. I had absolutely no clue that this is what I needed. As much as I was sitting here budgeting, like, how much can I realistically afford to bid on this dog? I was then thinking about, my life is busy. I can't have a dog right now. Like, who's gonna watch the dog for me when I have to travel? There were all these reasons why I also couldn't have one. And then the universe said, this is what you need, and gave it to me. And guess what? I figured it out.
18:50 Laurie Santos? I mean, I don't know how much folks ended up spending on Romeo. It was clearly more than your 600 bucks that you're gonna spend, but, you know. But my guess is whatever they spent, it actually wasn't as much as you wound up getting out of Romeo. Like, the act of doing something nice for somebody has these, like, incredible returns, like, this huge return on investment that we just don't often realize.
19:09 Speaker 04 Hundred percent. If Romeo was here today and someone offered 500 times more than what they spent, would I take it? Absolutely not. Absolutely not. There is no price that I can put on that gesture of what they did for me. That's the place we gotta operate from. Do, give, even if we never necessarily get to understand the full impact that it had.
19:34 Laurie Santos? And if you wanna follow JR's advice to do and to give, then here's the URL where you can donate to the Pods Fight Poverty Campaign. It's givedirectly.org/happinesslab. It's time for a quick break. But we'll return with the story of a world famous author who carries cash for strangers in need, and a scientist who's seen the firsthand benefits of an unexpectedly kind word. The Happiness Lab's special episode on the power of giving will return in a moment. You know those pieces in your closet that you find yourself reaching for over and over again? The sweater that somehow works with everything? The jeans you know will always fit just right? Those are the pieces that earn a permanent place in your wardrobe. And that's exactly what Quince does so well. I recently pulled my fall clothes out of storage,
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22:45 Laurie Santos? Welcome back to the Happiness Lab's special Giving Tuesday episode. In the spirit of my favorite charitable holiday, I'm chatting with my favorite podcasters about their personal stories of generosity. Our goal is to remind you that one of the quickest ways to feel happier yourself is to give a little happiness back to somebody else. Next up, we have Michael Lewis, bestselling author of Moneyball and the Blind Side, and host of the award-winning podcast Against the Rules. Michael wanted to share a new strategy he's been using to make it as easy as possible for him to do good for people in need.
23:19 Speaker 06 I made a decision to always carry a bunch of $10 bills with me, so that if I see anybody who asks me for money, I just automatically give them $10. People on the streets. So I've started doing it.
23:32 Laurie Santos? And so how does it feel?
23:33 Speaker 06 So it is completely true that when you give something to someone else, you feel good. Totally feels good. But years ago, when I was working on the blind side, the Christian family, the dad in the family, said to me something in passing about giving that I've never been able to get out of my head. When I hit a little bump in my mind about giving, it's a touchdown for me. And it's, if it doesn't hurt a little bit, you haven't given enough. I thought that was a cool idea. And so, you know, it's not a natural act, just to hand money over to people. It hurts a tiny bit. So that also is a reassuring feeling.
24:12 Laurie Santos? I bet each of those $10 bills that you gave away, the benefit that came to you was way more than $10 that you would have blown on like two lattes or something silly.
24:20 Speaker 06 So this has only been going on for a couple of months. So this has only happened like five times. But I'm gonna try to make this a habit forever, just because I think... It will change my relationship to just people on the streets.
24:31 Laurie Santos? Yeah.
24:31 Speaker 06 I don't mean people who are homeless. I mean, like, everybody around you, because especially like if you're in a city, you kind of go through the world waiting for someone to ask you for something, and you have all those defenses up. And so those defenses don't just operate against the people who are asking you for money. They operate against everything. They're the enemy of moving through the world in a good way, in an open way. So it opens up things a little bit.
24:58 Laurie Santos? Yeah, I love this advice because it so nicely ties to the type of thing that we're doing with GiveDirectly, right? Like, their whole deal is that they just give these cash transfers, no questions asked. And the act of doing that means you're not kind of thinking in ways where you're being mistrustful and kind of like analyzing people. Like, first of all, it's just like too much cognitive load of like, well, what is this money going to go to? Is it going to go to something good or whatever? But more than the cognitive load, you just wind up thinking all these bad theories about your fellow humans, right? Like, they're going to spend this on something terrible, they're going to use drugs or something like that. So just committing like, no, I'm just going to give the money. I'm going to trust that other people have good intentions of what they're going to do with it. First of all, you get the benefit that you get from giving, but also beyond that, you don't have all this like yucky mistrust that comes with like wondering what somebody's going
25:43 Laurie Santos? to do with the money. It just like is a wonderful like cognitive load reducer and like negative social contagion reducer.
25:50 Speaker 06 Correct. All correct. So we'll see if I persist in this, but this has been a little giving wrinkle in my life.
25:57 Laurie Santos? I hope Michael's tiny wrinkle grows into a big ridge, a subtle shift that turns into real positive change for Michael and for anyone feeling a little inspired by his new giving tactic. And if you're feeling newly inspired to make a difference, you're in luck, because you can take part in our Pods Fight Poverty campaign right now. Just head to givedirectly.org/happinesslab to give what you can.
26:20 Laurie Santos? Next up is a story of kindness from one of my former Yale students, a fellow psychologist who is also the host of an award-winning podcast, plus is one of my dear friends.
26:30 Speaker 07 Hey, I'm Dr. Maya Shankar, and I'm the host of A Slight Change of Plans.
26:35 Laurie Santos? And so, Maya, what's your story of unexpected benefits of kindness?
26:40 Speaker 07 My moment is actually one from elementary school, so...
26:44 Laurie Santos? Well, we're going way back for this one.
26:45 Speaker 07 Yeah, we're going all the way back. I was bullied a lot as a kid, and...
26:50 Laurie Santos? Wait, really? I'm surprised by this somehow. I didn't know this about you.
26:53 Speaker 07 Oh, my gosh. Oh, my God, so many tears, so much anxiety.
26:57 Laurie Santos? Wait, who was your worst bully? Mine was, I won't say her name, I'll say it was Jessica T. She was terrible.
27:03 Speaker 07 Jacqueline, Kellin, Lindsay. It was a trio. And Carly, too. But these were girls in my neighborhood that weren't super nice to me, and it was really hard. At the time, I just thought, oh, I'm a deeply flawed, broken person. With some hindsight, I realized, oh, how interesting. I was one of very, very few kids of color in my whole school. I wonder if maybe that played a role. But regardless of what contributed to the meanness and the cruelty, I spent my childhood feeling just really insecure and really, really anxious. And these bullies gave credence to my worst fears about myself.
27:39 Laurie Santos? Was this like in the schoolyard, on the bus? Like, where did this happen?
27:42 Speaker 07 Oh, my God, cafeteria. So Carly, one day, was like, you're so ugly, it's painful for me to look at you. And then got up and went to another table. There was another episode in elementary school where the kids had decided in advance that they were going to pretend I was invisible that day. So when I went to go drink from my milk carton, I lifted up, they were like, oh, there's a milk carton floating in the air, how funny. And now there's a fork in the air. Like, oh, my God, I'm like, clearly they're pretending I literally don't exist.
28:09 Laurie Santos? I want to like jump through the Zoom and hug you. But wait, how is this a story about kindness? I just don't see where this is going.
28:14 Speaker 07 Okay, sorry, sorry. So I was bullied a lot, and there were a few kids that were so deeply kind to me and weren't just nice behind the scenes, but were advocates for me when it really mattered. So I remember there was this one girl in my neighborhood named Adrian. And we were on the school bus. The school bus was brutal because like a lot of the kids didn't want to sit next to me. So it was a whole thing. It's like, we'd rather sit five in a seat rather than sit next to Maya, you know? Kids are terrible, right? So I remember some kids were saying some nasty things to me and Adrian stood up and was like, "All of you guys just shut up. Maya is awesome."
28:56 Speaker 07 I just remember those words in little kid Maya's brain were transformative. Like I had a transcendent experience in that moment. And I just remember being so moved by the fact that she was willing to stand up and say these things in front of the people that I was really scared by because I'm not exactly the type of person who would have fought back in those moments and like really stood my ground. Instead, I thought, "Oh, I know. Let me try to kill them with kindness. Maybe that will win over the bully." And that is clearly a very losing strategy when it comes to engaging with bullies effectively. So Adrian did this for me and it really helped change the landscape for me. It's not like the bullies were suddenly nice, but I now felt like Adrian was in my corner.
29:40 Speaker 07 And it changes your whole mentality when you feel like even one person is on your team. And I was fast forwarding decades to think about how this had affected me as a person. And actually, Laurie, it was a moment from my time at Yale when I was your undergrad student. There was a guy in my dorm room who was being bullied because he was suffering from depression and bipolar disorder. And it didn't fit with the kind of frat boy machismo athlete vibe, I guess, that his social group entertained. And they were so cruel to him. They were so mean. And I remember being like, "I'm going to be Adrian for him, for Noah."
30:25 Speaker 07 And I stood up to those guys and I was like, you guys suck. And Noah's amazing. And how dare you be so ignorant about mental illness and those struggles? I even remember at a reunion, I gave this guy so much, um, I don't know what a kosher word I can say on this podcast is, but it was not a fun exchange, I'll say, for this other guy. Cause I was like, how could you treat Noah like that? And I actually just got a text message from Noah a couple of months ago saying, "I remember in college when I was going through such a hard time, Maya, you were so on my side and you were so nice to me. And it really touched my heart that I could pay it forward like that because I remember having been on the receiving end of that." See, I told you Laurie had had a happy ending.
31:09 Laurie Santos? Okay, that was good. I'm glad the happy ending came up. It wasn't just like Maya getting tortured on the bus. No, but I love this story because it shows like Adrienne's probably not sitting there thinking about like how she helped this one person in elementary school. But you, right now, are thinking about how that helped you to this day. And a decade after that, it was also helping somebody else like in college. And so we forget not just like how long our kind events wind up helping the people that we do nice things for, but also like how many times these turn into like these cascades where like more nice things happen over time.
31:42 Speaker 07 Absolutely. They have these beautiful spillover effects, right? And there's this concept in psychology called moral elevation. And it's basically when you witness someone else's extraordinary actions. So it could be their kindness, or their courage, or their self-sacrifice, or their ability to forgive other people. Any character trait that you find really amazing and impressive, that can lead to this warm, fuzzy feeling in your chest. That makes you feel like, wow, humans are capable of extraordinary things. But importantly, when you experience moral elevation, it doesn't just feel good, it actually changes your brain.
32:16 Speaker 07 When you see someone challenge your understanding of the world and about what humans are capable of, it cracks open your own imagination about what you are capable of. And I love that insight because what it's done in my own life is it's made me a more keen observer. So when I'm walking in the coffee shop, I'll notice someone being extra nice to the barista, or I'll notice that someone went out of their way to smile at me when I'm going on a walk. And these moments feel so good in the moment, but they also have these long lasting effects on our psychology and our view of others, and importantly, of ourselves and our potential, our capabilities as people. And so it's really enriched my life to see the world through a moral beauty lens.
33:00 Laurie Santos? This is such a great example, I feel like, especially in winter, when everything's feeling so dark and so glum, that like, they're just these examples of beauty and kindness out there that we can find. And that seeing them isn't just like witnessing something that's beautiful, it's also changing us too.
33:13 Speaker 07 Exactly. And yes, winter is dark, but also the world, like, we're in a really dark place right now. It's very hard to stay hopeful and positive. And I have just felt like reminding myself that actually, humans are so good at their core, because you can witness these beautiful acts every single day, and that's in my control, unlike so much else that's happening in the world, is a wonderful way of reclaiming my agency and allowing myself moments of happiness, moments of joy in everyday life, against the backdrop of a lot of suffering in the world, you know? And so, yeah, I've just been grateful for the gift that we've gotten from science in the space of moral elevation.
33:52 Laurie Santos? And if Maya's story has given you a moment of moral elevation, remember that you can choose to become an Adrienne too. You can do that by joining me and dozens of other podcasters as part of the Pods Fight Poverty campaign. Why not donate five bucks right now by heading to givedirectly.org/happinesslab? That's givedirectly.org/happinesslab. It's time for a break. But when we return, I'll get to share my own story of the power of giving, and how four words that I quickly scribbled nearly 20 years ago, set a little girl on the path to becoming an aerospace engineer. The Happiness Lab will be right back.
34:32 Laurie Santos? You know those pieces in your closet that you find yourself reaching for over and over again? The sweater that somehow works with everything? The jeans you know will always fit just right? Those are the pieces that earn a permanent place in your wardrobe. And that's exactly what Quince does so well. I recently pulled my fall clothes out of storage, and I was so excited to see my black Mongolian cashmere full zip hoodie that I got from Quince. It's soft and warm and perfect for cozy nights. I love it so much that I now have a gray one in my quince.com cart right now. And when I buy that new gray hoodie, I know I'll feel good about my choice because everything at Quince is priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. And as the weather gets colder, Quince has everything you need to round out your wardrobe.
35:16 Laurie Santos? From warm, reasonably sourced down jackets and cozy cashmere scarves and gloves, to beautiful 14 karat gold jewelry. Find the fall pieces you'll reach for most at Quince. Download the Quince app for app exclusive offers, or go to quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365 day returns, now available in Canada and the UK too. And when Quince asks where you heard about them, let them know it was the Happiness Lab. It's the best way to support the show.
35:44 Speaker 05 Research shows that a good night's sleep can put a smile on your face. And that's because sleep is essential for happiness. Enter Dr. Teal's Magnesium Spray, a proprietary blend of topical minerals powered by pure Epsom salt and natural Dead Sea salt to help you get ready for bedtime. When you need a reset after a long day, make Dr. Teal's Magnesium Spray part of your nighttime routine. It's an effortless way to relax your body and your mind. Dr. Teal's Magnesium Spray comes in a lightweight, fast drying formula. Just shake it up, generously spritz on the soles of your feet, and massage until absorbed.
36:19 Laurie Santos? I've long been a fan of Dr. Teal's, so I was excited when I learned that they had a new product to help me unwind. I tried out Dr. Teal's Magnesium Spray after a particularly hard week. It was the perfect ritual to end my day and signaled to my brain that the work week was over and it was time to rest.
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36:43 Laurie Santos? In 2026, MassMutual is celebrating 175 years of helping people protect their financial futures. And now they're building on that legacy to encourage even more longevity. That's why the Living Well Rider is now available with eligible MassMutual whole life policies. The Rider offers access to proactive wellness benefits, all at no additional cost to policy owners. Learn more at massmutual.com/Wellness. That's massmutual.com/Wellness.
37:20 Laurie Santos? Welcome back to the Happiness Lab's special Giving Tuesday episode. Today, we're exploring just how much we underestimate the psychological power of small acts of generosity. And the next story is one that really hits home for me, because the person in this story doing all that underestimating of the power of giving was me.
37:38 Speaker 08 So in 2008, I was six years old.
37:42 Laurie Santos? This is Avery Miller.
37:44 Speaker 08 And I didn't know too much, you know, about the world, I suppose, but I knew that I wanted to be an astronaut because I'd read books about them. I'd seen them on TV. And my parents were very encouraging of all of that. And my mom realized there was an event called World Science Festival.
38:01 Laurie Santos? The World Science Festival is a multimedia science education organization that began as an annual event in New York City to make science fun and accessible to the general public. Think panels and talks, interactive exhibits, and kid-friendly games. Avery's mom thought her daughter would love it. So the Millers decided to take the four-hour trek from their home in Boston to New York City.
38:22 Speaker 08 So we went to the festival and there's a lot of really cool outside stuff and, you know, the typical kid activities. But my mom was like, you know, I think Avery would really love going to some talks, which, an insane thing to think about a six-year-old, but that's my mom. So we went to quite a few talks, but I think they were mostly men. So not really role models.
38:45 Laurie Santos? That's when Avery stumbled on a panel that would change her life forever. It was called Cool Jobs, where scientists shared the cool questions they explored and the fun places they got to work. There was a Disney Imagineer, a forensics expert who used science to solve crimes, and an early-career psychologist whose name you might recognize if you're a fan of the show.
39:05 Speaker 09 She spends a lot of time thinking about how we think, and how we play, and how we fall in love by hiking through the jungles of Puerto Rico watching monkeys. Please, a warm welcome for Dr. Laurie Santos.
39:22 Speaker 08 Hello, everyone. Thanks for having me today. So I'm going to tell you a little bit about a job that I bet many of you are thinking about, and that's the kind of job that's involved with working with animals.
39:32 Laurie Santos? So, fun fact. Long before I began studying happiness, I spent a lot of my early career trying to understand the human mind by studying the cognitive abilities of monkeys. Back in 2008, I was asked to talk about that primate work on the Cool Jobs Panel at the World Science Festival. The organizers of the panel assumed it would be of interest to college students thinking about their future careers. But what we didn't expect was to have so many little kids in the audience. Little kids who were apparently very impressed that there were jobs where you could hang out with monkeys. Little kids, just like Avery.
40:05 Speaker 08 I was like, you get to the outside, you get to do science. And that was sort of a mind-blowing moment of like, oh, my God, there's someone like me who's doing all this really cool stuff. And my mom, again, being really cool, was like, well, let's go talk to her.
40:21 Laurie Santos? Avery's mom wasn't the only audience member to have that idea. As The New York Times would later report, quote, "After the event, Dr. Santos was mobbed by a group of children curious about what she calls monkey magic tricks." I spent over an hour after that panel sitting onstage, talking with kids about my work. And one of those kids was an eager little girl named Avery.
40:43 Speaker 08 So I went up, and I think I told you all about how I wanted to be an astronaut and how I wanted to go to MIT, because, you know, growing up in Boston, if you want to do science, you want to go to MIT. And we didn't have anything for you to sign except for the back of the ticket on the email my mom printed out. So you signed it. I have it here, if you want to see it. Oh, my gosh, can you hold it up? Yeah. Oh, my gosh, with, like, a monkey drawing. That is amazing. So I drew monkeys on it, as you can see, which I'm sure my mom told me not to, but you wrote, have fun at MIT, love Lori. And I was like, this is the coolest thing ever. A scientist thinks I can be a scientist. We framed it and then I put it on my desk.
41:27 Speaker 08 And then I guess I never moved it off my desk. I mean, like, I look at it all the time. In high school, I'd sit there and do my homework. And so it's like, you know what? This means I can do it, you know? As much as I hated chemistry at the time, okay, I gotta get the chemistry done because I'm gonna go to MIT. So it was just this constant little reminder that like, I could do that.
41:48 Laurie Santos? I mean, it's so funny. I sign lots of things for lots of folks and just the idea that they would keep them is really cool. But also just that it turned into an inspiration for you.
41:56 Speaker 08 I failed a class, almost failed a class in the eighth grade, and it was science. And I was like, that means I can't do it. Because if everyone looks at you as the science kid and you're going around failing science classes, it's hard. So I looked at it and I was like, you know what? Someone says that I can do it. I saw someone else do it. You know, there were a lot of people rooting me on, but I had this thing from such a young age. One person telling you you can do it when you didn't even know that was an option is perhaps more meaningful. So, yeah, it was a big deal to me then. It's still a big deal to me now. I had it on my desk all through college, all the dorms I lived in. I have it now that I live on my own.
42:40 Speaker 08 It's just always lived on my desk. It's always just been there. I also have a Sally Ride picture, though, so you're up there with her.
42:47 Laurie Santos? That's amazing. It sounds like you wound up going to college. Did you end up going to MIT or what happened?
42:53 Speaker 08 Yeah, so by senior year, I realized that I did not want to go to MIT. MIT is great, but it wasn't the right fit. I ended up going to Purdue. I became an aerospace engineer.
43:04 Laurie Santos? Wait, like, mind boggling, like, you became aerospace engineer? That's so cool. I reconnected with Avery and learned about her story when she sent me an email out of the blue, thanking me for being such an inspiration to her. As she wrote in her letter, "You took the time to speak to me, learn my name, and just made me feel like no matter what, I could do it. Thank you for being an inspiration in six-year-old me's life. I know that you carved the way for this field to be one that women like me can thrive in." I mean, wow.
43:36 Laurie Santos? I had no idea that scribbling those four little words nearly 20 years ago would have had such an impact on someone's life. I also didn't realize that those words would ripple into the next generation of scientists, too.
43:48 Speaker 08 I think one of the things that I learned and I really appreciated when I met you when I was young was that you didn't talk to me like I was a little kid. I never felt like someone was talking down to me, which I think in STEM, we have a tendency to do when people don't understand stuff. I think it was Einstein, though I could be misquoting, who said, "If you can't explain it to a five-year-old, you don't understand it." There's something to be said for approaching someone on their level. That's how people can hold on and be like, "Wow, I really do want to learn more." It definitely makes me think about how I'm giving my time, because like, I mentor middle schoolers and I'm like, "Maybe one day, one of these middle schoolers will reach out and, you know, same sort of thing of like, "Oh, you impacted me, so who knows?"
44:30 Laurie Santos? Look at you, the six-year-old has become an adult now.
44:33 Speaker 08 I know.
44:34 Laurie Santos? I mean, one of the reasons this story is so compelling for me, also just that like, I affected someone who's so cool and doing such cool stuff now is just amazing.
44:41 Speaker 08 The fact that someone who speaks to John Green thinks I'm cool is possibly the coolest thing ever.
44:46 Laurie Santos? I'm sure he would think you're cool, too. But, I mean, it's just like, you just have these short interactions in life where you don't necessarily realize how much you're affecting people. And I think if you can have those interactions in a way that are like, positive or encouraging, we just like, don't know the ripple effect of the kind of thing that we can do to other people. And so, it was just such a reminder of like, "Oh, my gosh, I can have this like incredibly long-standing, like, you know, 20-year-ish positive effect, and I might not be realizing I could do that right now."
45:15 Speaker 08 And also the fact that I can reconnect with you after 20 years and it still be something meaningful.
45:21 Laurie Santos? I'm curious, was there a moment that you decided to reach back out? Like, was there like, a catalyst of why you decided to reach out when you did?
45:28 Speaker 08 I'm hoping to go back to school eventually. So, I've been studying for exams. And sometimes you have just a day where you're looking at your exam book and you're like, "There is no way that I can keep doing this. There's no way I can keep answering problems." And I looked at the note, which again, sits on my desk all the time. So, I'm looking at it and I'm like, "You know, I should really reach out to her and tell her that this is impactful."
45:52 Laurie Santos? This really just like blew my mind. It really, even this conversation, I feel like my face is gonna hurt from smiling after talking about this.
45:58 Speaker 08 Me as well, which is a great thing.
46:01 Laurie Santos? Avery's story is a powerful example of how a few simple words can shape someone's life in unimaginable ways. But it also shows how absolutely great it feels to be the person who gives that small act of kindness. And yet, even when we know these small gestures matter, most of us still struggle to actually do them. We put off reaching out, we delay helping, we wait for the right time to give. Why do we procrastinate on doing the very thing that will make us and other people feel so good? To find out, I tagged in our final podcast host guest, a behavioral scientist who has studied this exact problem. Katie, do you want to start by introducing yourself?
46:41 Speaker 10 I'd be delighted. My name is Katie Milkman, and I am a professor at the Wharton School, host of the podcast Choiceology, and author of the book How to Change.
46:48 Laurie Santos? So Katie, we've just heard all these amazing things that happen when people are nice to each other and do nice things for each other, including with money. We've also just heard not just what happens to the people who receive these wonderful things, but also what happens to you, the donor, in terms of your happiness and how great you feel. But the problem is that our minds are stupid, and sometimes we can know all this stuff and still not put it into practice. This is the kind of thing that you study, right?
47:14 Speaker 10 Yes, although I wouldn't say our minds are stupid. I think our minds are incredible, but they're constantly taking shortcuts and they're sort of wired for situations that don't always optimize our current environment in the modern era. So like, the mind is amazing. I don't want to denigrate the mind.
47:29 Laurie Santos? Okay, yeah, no diss to the mind, great. You know, we're walking around, really smart primates, built the internet, all this stuff. But we sometimes forget the importance of doing for other people. Like, when it comes to our social connection, I think this is a spot where we really get it wrong.
47:42 Speaker 10 Yeah, no, absolutely. We don't anticipate how good it will feel to engage in conversations, engage in gift giving, just be kind to others in a wide variety of ways. We don't realize how much that will actually generate happiness for us.
47:57 Laurie Santos? Our minds are also stupid in that we just like forget stuff. Like, I'm guessing a lot of people right now are like, oh, my gosh, this is a great opportunity to give directly, but like, you actually have to do that. And like, forgetfulness and friction is bad.
48:09 Speaker 10 That's right, yeah. Follow through is one of the main barriers to change that I have studied. Like, we need to remind people, we need to catch them in a moment when they can take action. And actually, this relates to some research I did a number of years ago related to giving. So this was a project led by Amanda Chuan, who's an amazing professor at Michigan State, and also with my colleague here, Judd Kessler, where we were able to get data from the University of Pennsylvania Hospital System on asks they made to past patients to give, right? So you've had experience with the University of Pennsylvania Hospital System. You were here inpatient for some sort of service or treatment. You have to stay overnight, right? That's kind of a big deal, or you're checked into the hospital. So you're probably feeling a lot of gratitude right now, and you have an opportunity when
48:52 Speaker 10 the university asks, would you give to this hospital system? You have an opportunity to express that gratitude. The data we got allowed us to look at whether or not those mailings came right away or at a time delay, because they send them in batches every few months. So if the batch send happens to occur just a couple of weeks after you leave the hospital, you're going to get it real quickly. But if it happens a few months later, well, then it's going to be a long time after your inpatient stay that you're going to be asked, would you be willing to reciprocate and make a donation? And what was interesting is that we found a pretty steep decay. So if we hit you right after you've had this positive experience, you're much more likely to give, you're feeling still that warmth and gratitude and remembering how meaningful it was to be taken care of.
49:36 Speaker 10 Whereas if a little time passes, the hot state, the sort of warmth and the reciprocity feelings, those positive feelings that generate the decision to give, those are what's decaying. And that also presumably suggests that you're not going to feel as good about making that reciprocal gesture if your strong feelings have dissipated and you wait. So one of the things I think that teaches us about giving is generally when we are remembering, when we're in that hot state, when we realize how good it will make us feel, like, take action. And right away, don't let that moment slip. And I think more similarly, in so many parts of your life, like when you're feeling gratitude to someone, or when you've had a really positive experience and you want to make sure you don't forget to tell someone,
50:20 Speaker 10 you know, "You were a great professor, Lori, and I'm so grateful for this thing you did." Or, you know, "Thank you for mentoring me." Whatever it is, express that gratitude immediately because you're going to forget if you let the moment pass. And I think, you know, one of the things I've studied in my research in other domains is just that our motivation in general waxes and wanes like over time, right? We years ago did an episode together, Lori, about some of my work with Heng Chen Dai of UCLA on the fresh start effect. That there are these moments when we're more motivated to make a change in our lives. And I think that's just part of a bigger process. Like, we don't walk around the world with like constant flat states of emotion and motivation. We're moving all over the place and capitalizing on the hot state feelings
51:03 Speaker 10 is important to doing the things that are good for us in the long run, that are good for our relationships and our happiness.
51:08 Laurie Santos? Because whenever we do it, we're gonna feel good doing that, right? In your fresh start work, were you looking, when do people start exercising? Whenever you get the exercise habit going, that's gonna have benefits for you. Whenever you actually get the gift done, the kind words said, you're gonna experience benefit. But if you wait and the motivation goes away, then you're never gonna wind up getting those benefits.
51:27 Speaker 10 Exactly.
51:28 Laurie Santos? So if someone's listening to this right now and they're thinking, "Oh, my gosh, I want to give to give directly." How do they lock it in? Do they like pause the episode and just go?
51:36 Speaker 10 Pause the episode, do it right now. Do not wait. That's right. Because that feeling will decay faster than you realize. And so this is the moment to do it. Don't wait, don't delay. You think you're gonna do it tomorrow, but you won't. So do it right now.
51:48 Laurie Santos? Okay, we're gonna do a pause.
51:59 Laurie Santos? So hopefully during that little audio break, some folks paused the episode and actually gave to give directly. But I'm guessing some folks maybe couldn't do it immediately. Are there other social science hacks we can use if we're motivated right now, but we can't actually hit like send immediately?
52:13 Speaker 10 Yeah, absolutely. Maybe you're driving right now, but you can talk to a virtual assistant in your phone. You might ask it to put a calendar alert in your calendar for later today, when you know you might have a moment, to remind you to follow through and choose a specific time. You could also ask that virtual assistant to send a ping, a text, or an email to someone who can hold you accountable and check in and say, hey, please ask me when you see me, partner, roommate, friend, tomorrow, if I've followed through on my pledge to give to give directly. We know that social accountability and making concrete plans with reminders are two ways we can hold our future self to account for the things we want to get done.
52:52 Laurie Santos? And I especially love the social accountability suggestion because that gives us a little bit of social connection. And maybe, just maybe, that partner, friend, roommate, might also donate to give directly and get a little happiness boost themselves.
53:03 Speaker 10 I love that. Perfect. Yes. Ask them to both nag you and to give themselves.
53:08 Laurie Santos? Love this. Katie, thank you so much for helping us try to figure out how we can use our biases to feel better and do better in the world.
53:14 Speaker 10 Thanks so much for having me and for putting together this wonderful compilation. I love GiveDirectly and I'm really excited about it.
53:20 Laurie Santos? Even small acts of generosity, a moment of encouragement, a few kind words, 10 bucks donated to a good cause, can have incredible ripple effects. And the sooner you act on a charitable impulse, the sooner you'll experience that positive impact. So go ahead and join the Pods Fight Poverty campaign by donating at givedirectly.org/happinesslab. That's givedirectly.org/happinesslab. And if you're not in a position to give, that's fine. Maybe you'd consider sharing our campaign with your friends and colleagues. Just use the hashtag #podsfightpoverty to raise awareness, fight extreme poverty, and unwrap a little gift of happiness for yourself, too. The Happiness Lab will continue in the holiday spirit for
54:03 Laurie Santos? the rest of the year. Next week, we'll be tackling your holiday happiness woes with a very hilarious special guest, actor and podcaster Rainn Wilson. That's all next time on the Happiness Lab with me, Dr. Laurie Santos.
54:30 Laurie Santos? The Happiness Lab is proudly sponsored by Amica Insurance. When it comes to taking care of their customers, Amica goes the extra mile. From listening to your insurance needs to following up after a claim, Amica provides coverage with empathy. Because as a mutual insurer, Amica is built for its customers and prioritizes you. It's the way insurance should be. Amica: We're your priority number one. Visit amica.com and get a quote today. A business gift should do more than check a box. It should reflect your brand and show someone they're appreciated, recognized, and truly seen. That's why teams trust Forimprint. With thousands of high-quality customizable products, like premium apparel, drinkware,
55:13 Laurie Santos? tech, and more, it's easy to create a gift that feels meaningful and on-brand. And with Forimprint's expert support and their 360-degree guarantee, you can be Forimprint certain your order will arrive exactly as intended. Explore gifting with confidence at forimprint.com. Forimprint: For Certain.
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