SYSK’s Summer Movie Playlist: The True Story of BlacKkKlansman

In 2018, director Spike Lee brought the story of Ron Stallworth to the big screen to great effect. Today, Josh and Chuck discuss the true story behind the Oscar nominated film. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.

• 0:04Josh Clark?

  Buy smart, drive for less and trade for more. That's Toyota Ford ability and it starts with a great deal on an off-road ready Tacoma or half ton Tundra, two of Toyota's longest lasting trucks, combining power for work, tech for adventures and style in between. And they're built on a reputation for quality and reliability, which is why Toyota trucks are known for holding their value, which could mean big savings when it's time for your next Toyota. So get a great deal today and a great value tomorrow. Shop toyota.com for more. Toyota, let's go places. Let's be real, eating is a huge part of our lives. It fuels us, it brings us together, and yes, it's one of life's great pleasures. But once a meal's over, we don't think much about what happens next unless something starts to feel off.

• 0:47Josh Clark?

  Introducing Eating Interrupted, a new podcast from iHeart Ruby Studio, hosted by longtime journalist and Crohn's patient Cynthia McFadden. Listen in to unpack what it means when your body doesn't always respond to food the way you expect and what science is now revealing about why. Listen to Eating Interrupted on the iHeart app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 1:09Speaker 02

  Hey everybody and welcome to the Summer Movie Playlist, the place where we group some fun movie content because of summer movie season. We thought you might like this, so we gave it a shot and today you're going to be listening to the replay of our episode on Black Klansman, the true story behind that movie. It was a great movie, love it, love Spike Lee, and this is a great one, so I hope you enjoy the show.

• 1:36Speaker 03

  Welcome to Stuff You Should Know from HowStuffWorks.com.

• 1:46Josh Clark?

  Hey and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark, there's Charles Bryant, there's Jerry over there. You put the three of us together, it's movie crush. I mean, stuff you should know.

• 1:59Speaker 02

  This does have some stank on it, doesn't it? It's a movie stank.

• 2:03Josh Clark?

  Uh huh. I know your game. It's cool.

• 2:05Speaker 02

  Uh, I didn't even ask you, have you seen Black Klansman?

• 2:09Josh Clark?

  I, I was like, I can't, I can't do this episode without having seen it. So I watched it last night.

• 2:14Speaker 02

  Oh, nice.

• 2:15Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 2:15Speaker 02

  Good, huh?

• 2:17Josh Clark?

  Yeah, it's pretty good.

• 2:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:18Josh Clark?

  I like, uh, I like his choice at the end, like to completely pull a somersault on the viewer.

• 2:24Speaker 02

  Oh, sure. With that last bit?

• 2:26Josh Clark?

  Yeah, like spoiler alert.

• 2:27Speaker 02

  Pretty powerful.

• 2:28Josh Clark?

  There's an end to the movie. Yeah, for sure. We should probably say that out of the gate. If you haven't seen this yet and you don't want it to be spoiled, don't listen to this episode first.

• 2:36Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 2:37Josh Clark?

  But, um, yeah, the, I guess now that we've said that, we can speak freely, right?

• 2:41Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 2:41Josh Clark?

  So, um, the, if, if the entire movie was basically to disarm you up to the end, then I, I think it's one of the greatest movies I've ever seen in my life. And even if it wasn't, that wasn't the entire point of the movie. It was still, it was still great in, and how he pulled it out at the end, I think.

• 3:02Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, this was, I don't know if you remember, but this is the movie I saw in Perth, Australia.

• 3:07Josh Clark?

  Oh, yeah.

• 3:08Speaker 02

  That happens at the end, that big, uh, you know, sort of gut punch.

• 3:13Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 3:13Speaker 02

  Of realism at the end. And, uh, I stood up and I was like, hmm, like, I wonder what they, they're thinking here in Perth.

• 3:21Josh Clark?

  They're probably thinking, what just happened? What's wrong with America?

• 3:25Speaker 02

  Yeah. And I'm going, aye, mate. Uh, good to see ya. I'm not American.

• 3:31Josh Clark?

  I'm Canadian. Can't you tell, bloke?

• 3:37Speaker 02

  Oh goodness. Uh, yeah, it was, it was one of those things where I was like, I'm kind of slightly embarrassed right now.

• 3:42Josh Clark?

  Yeah. It was like that.

• 3:44Speaker 02

  I enjoyed the movie though. I thought to see Spike Lee, who, um, just, he's one of my favorite filmmakers in his sixties, still just bringing the juice like this. I loved it.

• 3:54Josh Clark?

  Yeah. I also loved that it was controversial too, um, in that like, some people criticized Spike Lee for like, not going far enough for maybe kind of, um, glossing over some of the ugly aspects of the, the story.

• 4:08Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, you want to get to that at the end, maybe?

• 4:10Josh Clark?

  Yeah, yeah, for sure. But we'll, we'll give it a pre-mention shout out, which is what we just did.

• 4:17Speaker 02

  Right, so we are talking about the, uh, the true story of the film Black Klansman, Spike Lee's movie that won the grand prize at the Cannes Film Festival.

• 4:27Josh Clark?

  Mm-hmm.

• 4:28Speaker 02

  It's nominated for Academy Awards.

• 4:32Josh Clark?

  Yeah, three Oscars, I believe, for, including Best Picture.

• 4:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think Picture Director and...

• 4:37Josh Clark?

  Supporting Actor.

• 4:39Speaker 02

  Uh, for who?

• 4:40Josh Clark?

  I would guess Adam Driver. I didn't see.

• 4:42Speaker 02

  Really?

• 4:43Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I was surprised because Denzel's son did a wonderful job as well.

• 4:48Speaker 02

  He loves, he loves that, being known as that.

• 4:50Josh Clark?

  Right. I can't remember his first name, but you know, Denzel's son. He, uh, he was, um, like, there were several times when he was talking and I was like, oh, you're definitely Denzel Washington's son, man. Just the, the way he talked, the, um, the sound of his voice, but also his acting, too. He's a good actor.

• 5:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, so, all right, Best Picture, Best Supporting Actor for Adam Driver, uh, Best Director and Best Original Music Score.

• 5:16Josh Clark?

  Oh, nice.

• 5:17Speaker 02

  Uh, but yeah, he is, uh, I didn't know he was Denzel's son till after the movie.

• 5:23Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I could see that.

• 5:24Speaker 02

  And he was a football player. Did you know that?

• 5:27Josh Clark?

  I didn't. Who'd he play for?

• 5:28Speaker 02

  He played for Morehouse here in Atlanta. He was a running back. And then played NFL in the practice squad for the Rams.

• 5:35Josh Clark?

  Uh-huh.

• 5:36Speaker 02

  And then eventually played a few years in NFL Europe and the UFL until he hung up his cleats six years ago.

• 5:43Josh Clark?

  Oh, that's cool.

• 5:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 5:45Josh Clark?

  Playing football in Europe has gotta be a surreal experience. You know?

• 5:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, 'cause it's a soccer ball.

• 5:51Josh Clark?

  Then everyone's like, what are you doing? This is all wrong.

• 5:56Speaker 02

  All right, so should we way back it to the 1970s, the groovy 70s of Denver, Colorado?

• 6:01Josh Clark?

  First, first we should say, his name is John David Washington.

• 6:04Speaker 02

  Oh, sure, you were kidding around.

• 6:05Josh Clark?

  Not just Denzel's son, yes.

• 6:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:07Josh Clark?

  So, yeah, let's get in the wayback machine and see, uh, go inspect their terrible, low-quality pot.

• 6:20Speaker 02

  So Ron Stallworth is the true to life character's name, who, there was a football player growing, when we were growing up, named John Stallworth. So I'm always wanting to say John Stallworth.

• 6:30Josh Clark?

  This is not him. This is a cop named Ron Stallworth.

• 6:33Speaker 02

  That's right. And he had a few designations that are pretty important. He was the first African-American police officer to work for the Colorado Springs Police Department, which he joined as a cadet at the age of 19.

• 6:46Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 6:47Speaker 02

  In 72. And then a couple of years later, on his 21st birthday, on his 21st birthday?

• 6:53Josh Clark?

  That's what I saw. Yeah, June 18th, I believe.

• 6:56Speaker 02

  Nice. Was sworn in as a full-on officer of the law.

• 6:59Josh Clark?

  Right. And I'm not sure if like, they just swear you in on your 21st birthday, or if it just so happened that the swearing-in ceremony was on his 21st birthday. But regardless, it was a big deal. He's the first African-American cop, and then later on detective for Colorado Springs. So that's, that's a big deal, especially starting out at age 21, too. That takes a lot of cojones, as they call it in Colorado.

• 7:21Speaker 02

  No, I think they call those Rocky Mountain oysters.

• 7:24Josh Clark?

  That's right. That is what they call them, for sure.

• 7:28Speaker 02

  So he worked undercover for about 30 years. Long, great careers in undercover detective. But it was this case, which only came out about four years ago, when he wrote a book about it, about his career, when he went undercover as a, well, as a Klansman, but it's a little more complicated than that.

• 7:50Josh Clark?

  It is a, it was a very complicated operation, right?

• 7:55Speaker 02

  Yeah. And this wasn't something that like, I mean, he even says in this NPR interview that he didn't, it was just a job at that particular point in time. And when that particular job ended, that is the undercover stint, which was about, what, eight or nine months, and moved on to something else. And it just happened by circumstance. So he didn't come in there. With a bone to pick with the Klan, aside from probably every bone to pick that he had with the Klan.

• 8:22Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 8:23Speaker 02

  Just as a black man in America.

• 8:25Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and it would probably help to give a little background on the Klan at the time, because, you know, the Klan was very well-known for being really big and really violent at, over three waves is basically how the Klan history is divided.

• 8:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 8:40Josh Clark?

  Like, the first wave was when they were founded in the wake of the Civil War. Then they had a, the second wave came around the 19-teens, like 1950, 15, I mean, that era. And then, they had another big resurgence during the Civil Rights Era in the 50s and 60s. But, you know, in between these waves and after that third wave, it's not like the Klan just went away. They just, they kept on going, their profile was lower, and maybe their, the public violence or terrorism that they were engaging in wasn't quite as pronounced, but they were still there.

• 9:19Josh Clark?

  And in Colorado in particular, they had a really long history with the Klan, where basically the city of Denver was in the, under the control of the Klan back in the 20s, just, you know, 50 years before Ron Stallworth started working there.

• 9:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, he was, he got, when he, when he got hired there, he got access to files, like secret FBI files.

• 9:42Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 9:43Speaker 02

  And he got to go in and dig in and look at the history of the Klan in Colorado, and, boy, like, you ain't kidding, they were in the House of Representatives, there were senators.

• 9:55Josh Clark?

  Both senators were Klan's members.

• 9:57Speaker 02

  The mayor, Benjamin Stapleton, who the airport was named after until 95.

• 10:02Josh Clark?

  Yeah, his great-grandson ran for governor on the GOP ticket this past election, and lost to, who is Colorado's first-ever openly gay Jewish governor.

• 10:16Speaker 02

  Oh, wow.

• 10:17Josh Clark?

  Mm-hmm.

• 10:18Speaker 02

  Colorado's a weird state.

• 10:19Josh Clark?

  It is an odd state, for sure.

• 10:21Speaker 02

  You got a lot of different ideologies all packed in together.

• 10:24Josh Clark?

  It's very purple in all sorts of ways.

• 10:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, so Mayor Benjamin Stapleton was a Klan member, the governor, Clarence Morley was a Klan member. The chief of police, which is, I mean, you don't want anyone in these positions to be Klan members, but I imagine the chief of police is one of the more problematic areas to have a person in that kind of control.

• 10:46Josh Clark?

  Particularly that one, too. He was basically, he was picked by the Klan, the Colorado Klan, and basically foisted on Benjamin Stapleton, who was even like, wow, this guy's even too much for my tastes, and eventually fired him. But like, the Klan picked the chief of police of Denver, Colorado, back in the 20s.

• 11:10Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. And they tried to recall Stapleton at one point. It didn't work. And when that effort failed, the Klan burned across on the top of Table Mountain as a celebration, a show of public celebration.

• 11:22Josh Clark?

  Right. So, the Klan has deep roots in the old story in Colorado, or at least they used to. And they were still very much around when Ron Stallworth started his investigation, or started as the first black detective in Colorado Springs, right?

• 11:43Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 11:44Josh Clark?

  And so, he started out, I guess, as kind of plainclothes and was assigned undercover work pretty quickly, just by his, just by being the only African-American officer in the police force, because Stokely Carmichael came to town once.

• 12:02Speaker 02

  That's right. And this is in the film. We're going to talk about a few differences between the movie and the real story. But he did, in fact, go to a speech and a rally by famous Black Panther, Stokely Carmichael. And he was, you know, fully kitted out in his bell bottoms and his, wearing a wire. He picked his Afro out. And he, in fact, did make a point to meet him, just like he did in the film. And Carmichael did apparently say, "Arm yourself and get ready, because the revolution is coming." And I imagine Stallworth had some mixed feelings about that assignment.

• 12:42Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I would guess so. It's kind of like, I don't really have any idea of what he personally was like because the movie mixed things up so much and like added layers that weren't necessarily there. So I have no idea what that experience would have been like for him, you know?

• 12:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, one thing we do know is not true is the character in the film of Patrice, whom he meets at that rally, a young woman that he falls in love with. She was made up for the movie. Spike Lee wanted a love interest, basically, and to represent sort of the female black power movement as a whole.

• 13:17Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 13:18Speaker 02

  So she was completely made up, but she was terrific in the film.

• 13:21Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 13:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, Laura Harrier, she's in the new Spider-Man movies, too. She's awesome.

• 13:26Josh Clark?

  Cool. The new Spider-verse movie?

• 13:28Speaker 02

  No, no, no, that's animated.

• 13:30Josh Clark?

  Oh, okay.

• 13:31Speaker 02

  Well, she could have been a voice actor, I guess.

• 13:32Josh Clark?

  Right, yeah.

• 13:33Speaker 02

  No, she's in the one, the new ones with the new kid.

• 13:38Josh Clark?

  Okay.

• 13:38Speaker 02

  The new Spidey Kid.

• 13:39Josh Clark?

  The current Spider-Man.

• 13:41Speaker 02

  Current Spider-Man, which is great. Those are good movies.

• 13:43Josh Clark?

  I haven't seen any of them.

• 13:45Speaker 02

  You're not super into that stuff, though, are you?

• 13:47Josh Clark?

  Well, I saw the Infinity War one. He was in that, I think.

• 13:50Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 13:51Josh Clark?

  He's a bit of a smart aleck, frankly.

• 13:53Speaker 02

  He is.

• 13:57Speaker 02

  So, okay, he does his research on the deep roots of the Klan in Colorado. He goes undercover. And then, I don't think he was even assigned this thing. I think he kind of came up with it on his own, by chance, almost. In October 1978, he was 25 at this point, and he was looking through the local paper.

• 14:19Josh Clark?

  Well, that was part of his assignment, to gather intelligence by reading the paper.

• 14:22Speaker 02

  Well, right, but I don't think, I think this was his idea to go undercover like this.

• 14:27Josh Clark?

  That's the impression I have, too.

• 14:28Speaker 02

  He seemed like a self-starter, in a lot of ways. So he found this ad, a classified ad in the paper for the Klan, said, "Get in touch if you want further information." He sent a letter posing as a white racist to a P.O. box, just thinking that he would just get back some pamphlets or something. So he signed his real name, which is, he didn't really think that one through.

• 14:55Josh Clark?

  No, he didn't. And he didn't, he never really fully explained it, aside from the best explanation I saw is that he didn't think anything was going to come of it. He thought he'd get, like you said, a couple of pamphlets and that would be that. And he just wasn't planning to, to create like a, a large investigation out of making contact through this, this ad. And, and again, we should probably state this, it was an ad in the paper for the client to get in touch with the client, to get more info about the client, and maybe you might want to join, who knows?

• 15:27Speaker 02

  Right.

• 15:29Josh Clark?

  So, so he, he makes contact with them by sending off a letter. And if you ask me, if, if, if Spike Lee were directing this episode, he would put an ad break right here.

• 15:42Speaker 02

  That was good.

• 15:43Josh Clark?

  Who are we to disagree?

• 15:44Speaker 02

  All right, we'll be right back.

• 16:02Josh Clark?

  Buy smart, drive for less, and trade for more. That's Toyota affordability. And it all starts with a great deal on a truck from your local Toyota dealer.

• 16:11Speaker 02

  That's right. Make a smart buy on the off-road, ready Tacoma or half-ton Tundra, two of Toyota's most capable and longest-lasting trucks, built with the strength for the tough jobs, the tech to power your next big adventure, and the rugged style for everything in between.

• 16:24Josh Clark?

  Or discover Toyota's off-road lineup, including the iconic 4Runner and Land Cruiser, designed to go beyond the everyday. And with Toyota's proven reputation for quality and reliability, plus hybrid power on many models, you can get more for every mile and drive for less along the way.

• 16:40Speaker 02

  That's right. And long after you leave the lot, your Toyota keeps delivering with great resale value. So you could trade in for more when you're ready for your next Toyota. From a great deal today to a great value tomorrow, a Toyota is right for you. Shop toyota.com for deals and details, or stop by your local Toyota dealer today. Toyota, let's go places.

• 17:05Josh Clark?

  Hey everybody. The best pieces in your closet are the ones you can count on. Whether you're heading to work, or going out, or keeping things casual. And this time of year, Quince makes finding something great for everyone else just as easy. This holiday season, it's where you want to shop for yourself and everyone on your list.

• 17:22Speaker 02

  That's right. And you know what? Quince focuses on high-quality staples made with premium materials like 100% Mongolian cashmere, 14-karat gold, and Italian leather. All timeless, versatile pieces that feel special to unwrap and become everyday favorites long after the holidays.

• 17:37Josh Clark?

  Yeah, plus, everything at Quince is priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. They work directly with ethical factories and cut out the middlemen, so you can give luxury-quality pieces without the luxury price tag.

• 17:50Speaker 02

  So give the gift of quality this holiday season. Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers, or go to quince.com, where you can get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK as well. And when Quince asks you where you heard about them, let them know it was Stuff You Should Know. It's the best way to support the show.

• 18:11Speaker 04

  First thought is like, wow, how are we going to do all this?

• 18:14Josh Clark?

  Hey, this is Josh and Chuck from Stuff You Should Know.

• 18:17Speaker 02

  That's Alan Goya, Planning Engineer at AT&T, and he's talking about Intuit Dome, home of the Los Angeles Clippers, where every seat, screen, phone, and transaction is connected with AT&T fiber and 5G, redefining the fan's experience. And Alan's master plan made it all possible.

• 18:33Speaker 04

  It was going to rival anything that was already built. And that takes quite a bit of people and different teams to all be on the same page.

• 18:41Josh Clark?

  That includes Field Services Manager Drexel Jones. His team made sure it all came together and held up on game day.

• 18:47Speaker 05

  Through Alan's whole crew design, we connected the event visitors to the world.

• 18:53Speaker 02

  And after years of hard work and collaboration, it was opening night.

• 18:56Speaker 05

  To actually see the whole stadium light up and data's flowing is a beautiful thing.

• 19:01Speaker 04

  With the fan's experience, it's incredible. It gave me a lot of pride.

• 19:04Josh Clark?

  AT&T, connecting fans to what they love. Connecting changes everything. AT&T.

• 19:23Josh Clark?

  Okay, so like we said, Ron Stallworth is thumbing through the newspaper. He mails off a letter to get more info about the Klan. And he uses his real name. And like you said Chuck, he was expecting like a pamphlet or something in return. Like, "So you want to be a Klan member?" or something like that.

• 19:42Speaker 02

  Right.

• 19:43Josh Clark?

  Instead, about two weeks later, he got a call from the number. So he used everything, as far as the undercover operation would go. He used all of his undercover info, except for his name. So he got a call on his undercover phone line from a guy named Ken Odell. And he was pretty surprised to get this call, because again, he was expecting a pamphlet. And instead, he had a real, live, living, breathing Ku Klux Klansman on the other end of the line, saying, "Hey, I got your letter about hating black people and other minorities. Let's talk."

• 20:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, he was like, "Why are you interested?" And Stallworth immediately just kind of goes into character. And I guess that's what you, you know, when you're undercover, you've got to be a part improv actor.

• 20:30Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 20:31Speaker 02

  To be able to pull that off.

• 20:32Josh Clark?

  Well, he also, he said he drew from his own personal experiences, because he grew up in El Paso and encountered a lot of racism there. And I'm sure on the force in Colorado Springs, too. So he drew from his own experience as well.

• 20:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, so he basically, right out of the gate, says, "Well, you know, my sister's dating a black man, and every time he puts his hands on her, on her pure white body, I cringe, and I want to do something about it." And Ken Odell says, "You sound like a great guy. Why don't you come on down and let's meet? Because you are just the kind of dude we're looking for."

• 21:11Josh Clark?

  You sound like real Klan material.

• 21:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, I thought about maybe doing an episode on the Klan.

• 21:16Josh Clark?

  I thought about that, too, and then I'm like, "Do you want to give them a platform?"

• 21:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, but then I thought, "Or, you know, you could just talk about it and how stupid they are."

• 21:26Josh Clark?

  All right.

• 21:27Speaker 02

  Like, when I was a kid, I mean, of course, being in Georgia, that stuff was around. I never, like, saw it firsthand, obviously.

• 21:34Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 21:34Speaker 02

  But you heard things even, like, growing up in the 70s in Georgia, and I was always so scared of the whole thing because of the outfits and everything and the fire.

• 21:44Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 21:44Speaker 02

  And I was a good little Baptist boy, so there was a lot of fear. But then I got a little older and I was like, they're just dumb rednecks wearing sheets.

• 21:52Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 21:53Speaker 02

  Sort of demystified it.

• 21:55Josh Clark?

  This is the moment you become an adult.

• 21:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, but, I mean, of course, then I would later learn that they did real horrific things and took lives and, you know, are a terrorist organization.

• 22:05Josh Clark?

  Right, right.

• 22:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 22:07Josh Clark?

  But I think what you're saying is they made themselves up to be boogeymen.

• 22:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly.

• 22:11Josh Clark?

  And they definitely can be that way, especially in a young mind or something like that, but, yeah.

• 22:17Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 22:18Josh Clark?

  So, so, back to the story. Ron Stallworth is on the phone with this guy named Ken Odell, who wants to meet him to see if he'd like to join the Klan. And this is a big problem because I think, as we mentioned a couple of times, Ron Stallworth was African-American.

• 22:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, he's like, oh, boy, what do I do here?

• 22:36Josh Clark?

  Right. So, he actually recruited a fellow detective who he, in his book, calls Chuck. That's all he's ever publicly referred to the guy as is Chuck. Wait, was it you, Chuck?

• 22:47Speaker 02

  It was not me.

• 22:47Josh Clark?

  Okay.

• 22:48Speaker 02

  That gentleman is, I guess, either still undercover or just never wanted his identity out there.

• 22:54Josh Clark?

  Right. So, he, yeah, he may still live in Colorado Springs, who knows?

• 22:58Speaker 02

  Maybe he's on a case right now, for all I know.

• 23:00Josh Clark?

  But, so, this Chuck guy, he was recruited by Ron Stallworth to play Ron Stallworth to the Klan because Chuck was white. He was already an undercover narcotics agent, and apparently he was friendly enough with Ron Stallworth to say, yes, I will, I will join this investigation, buddy. Let's do it.

• 23:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, and here's the thing, though. He was, this wasn't his, like, primary case. So Chuck is undercover on a lot of different assignments. So he's not around as much as Stallworth needs him. So, like in the movie, most of this stuff is done over the phone. Like, he spends a lot of time in this investigation on the phone, speaking to these Klansmen who think that he's a white man. And when they needed to meet, he would send Chuck in, who, and we'll get to the voice part in a minute, because that's when I was watching the movie, I was like, Do none of these dummies not realize that they don't sound anything alike?

• 23:59Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 23:59Speaker 02

  You know, because they've been talking to him on the phone at length.

• 24:02Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 24:03Speaker 02

  But they had their, they had their first meeting. They, they got together and I believe they met, they met somewhere at first and then went to a bar. After like, it's the second part of that meeting.

• 24:16Josh Clark?

  Yeah, they met at a conveni- so the movie supposedly portrays this realistically. They, they, this Chuck guy who is portraying Ron Stallworth through the Klan.

• 24:26Josh Clark?

  Met, they met at a convenience store and he was said, he was told to get in the car. And then they drove to a second location, which man, that's scary stuff. And also, he's also wearing a wire at the time, like that's something that, that the, the movie kinda gets across. But especially in like, articles about the story, don't necessarily dive into. This Chuck Cat was like, putting himself out there.

• 24:48Speaker 02

  Oh, sure, as every undercover detective does.

• 24:50Josh Clark?

  Right, so I mean, Ron Stallworth is conducting this investigation. He's the mastermind of it, he's leading this whole thing. But this poor Chuck guy has to go hang out with these, you know, violent Klan's members. Or Klan members on, you know, like fairly frequently from what I understand, so hats off to him.

• 25:07Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, absolutely, I mean, it was, it was definitely like, it required both of their best efforts to get away with this for that long.

• 25:14Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 25:14Speaker 02

  It was quite the ruse, so Chuck meets with them, eventually earns their trust. Along with the, the phone work of Stallworth. And then, he actually gets successfully admitted about two months later. And got his little, I guess you get a little membership card.

• 25:33Josh Clark?

  He still has it.

• 25:34Speaker 02

  He does, he did not throw it away, like in the movie. He has it framed, in fact. And on the back of the card were six codes of conduct. One of which said, never discuss any Klan affairs with any plainclothes officer on a state, local, or national level.

• 25:49Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 25:50Speaker 02

  So, there is a lot of comedy in the movie, if you haven't seen it.

• 25:55Speaker 02

  I mean, it's a serious thing that they're doing, but there are a lot of laughs as well.

• 25:59Josh Clark?

  A lot of laughs and a lot of like movie formula steps that Spike Lee purposely follows, you know, very faithfully too.

• 26:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

• 26:08Josh Clark?

  So there's a big point there that we left out there Chuck. So to get that membership card supposedly, again, as they say in Colorado, the oysters on this guy. His, he had, so he met, so the fake Ron Stallworth Chuck, met with the Klan, impressed them enough between Ron's, the real Ron Stallworth's phone calls and Chuck's, whatever Chuck was saying in person, all this combined made the Colorado Springs Klan members say, okay, we like you, we want you to be a member, fill out this application and we'll send it off to the, to the national director of, again, the Klan, we should say, I don't know if we've ever said this, the Klan calls itself the organization.

• 26:50Speaker 02

  Right.

• 26:51Josh Clark?

  Rather than the Klan.

• 26:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 26:53Josh Clark?

  So they, and, and the guy who ran the thing, I don't know if he still runs it or not, but he definitely did at this time during this investigation, there's a guy named David Duke, who if you grew up in the eighties or I think even the nineties.

• 27:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 27:05Josh Clark?

  You were probably pretty familiar with David Duke. I believe he ran for president once, didn't he?

• 27:11Speaker 02

  I don't know. I mean, he was, wasn't he the governor of Louisiana?

• 27:15Josh Clark?

  I don't, maybe that's what it is. Maybe he ran for that, but he was the grand wizard of the Ku Klux Klan and he was trying to make it a more political organization, less of, less of a terrorist organization and more of a political organization under his guidance, but it was still the Ku Klux Klan. Like there were still plenty of times when he was wearing robes and stuff. He just never did in public. So during this time, he was, he was the national director, the grand wizard of the Klan. And when Ron Stallworth didn't get his application pushed through fast enough, he picked up the phone and called the national headquarters and ended up talking with David Duke and saying like, hey, my application's taking a while. Is there anything you can do about it? And this kicked off like what,

• 28:00Josh Clark?

  what Ron Stallworth would later characterize in a weird way as a friendship between him, a black undercover detective in Colorado, and David Duke, the grand wizard of the Ku Klux Klan.

• 28:13Speaker 02

  Yeah. And by the way, I don't want to get. Angry emails from David Duke supporters.

• 28:18Josh Clark?

  Uh huh.

• 28:18Speaker 02

  He was a Republican Louisiana state rep. He was not governor.

• 28:25Josh Clark?

  But I think he ran for some, some high office.

• 28:28Speaker 02

  Oh, he did. He ran, uh, he was a candidate for the Democratic presidential primaries in the late eighties. And then the Republican primaries in 92.

• 28:37Josh Clark?

  He ran as a Democrat and then a, I could see that solid south kind of thing.

• 28:41Speaker 02

  Yeah. And I think he ran for state senate and lost, uh, US senate and lost, uh, US house and lost. And he did run for governor of Louisiana, but he lost.

• 28:51Josh Clark?

  Gotcha. Okay.

• 28:52Speaker 02

  And, and you may be, if you're, if you didn't grow up in the eighties, you may have heard his name more recently. Because, um, he fully endorsed, uh, Donald Trump's campaign. And after Donald Trump won, he, um, this was his quote on Twitter. Make no mistake, our people have played a huge role in electing Trump. So he was, he was in the news again more recently.

• 29:15Josh Clark?

  Well, he was also in Charlottesville, um, if not leading the, the rally to unite the right. Definitely a, a big speaker at it, a big, a big part of it. And Spike Lee uses some of his footage from that rally. It kind of get across that, you know, this stuff is still going on. This isn't from the seventies or, or earlier.

• 29:39Speaker 02

  How great was Topher Grace?

• 29:41Josh Clark?

  He was wonderful.

• 29:42Speaker 02

  He was so good. And he looks a lot like David Duke of the seventies.

• 29:46Josh Clark?

  He really does.

• 29:46Speaker 02

  Unfortunately for him.

• 29:47Josh Clark?

  The stash and the three piece suits and all that. So.

• 29:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, he did a good job.

• 29:52Josh Clark?

  But so, so yeah, and the movie Topher Grace from that seventies show, um, always, he will always be from that seventies show.

• 29:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 30:00Josh Clark?

  He plays, um, what do you want me to say? Like he, he had a bit part in Ocean's Eleven or something? Brad Pitt's character was teaching him to play poker, I think.

• 30:09Speaker 02

  Forgot about that.

• 30:10Josh Clark?

  You know, that guy.

• 30:10Speaker 02

  No, he's that seventies show, of course.

• 30:12Josh Clark?

  So, so he, uh, he plays David Duke in the, in the movie and they're, this, this is, this is, it's really funny. Like Spike Lee added stuff that it's just, you, you would think like, well, yeah, of course it's totally believable. Like Chuck. Being Jewish in real life.

• 30:27Speaker 02

  Right.

• 30:27Josh Clark?

  And he actually wasn't. That's fabricated by the movie. So you would just not even think twice about that, but it turns out that's not true. The stuff that seems the least true is actually the stuff that actually happened. And for a very long time, well, at the very least, over the course of this nine-month investigation, there were multiple phone calls that were very cordial and friendly.

• 30:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 30:48Josh Clark?

  Where Ron Stallworth would call David Duke and posing as a white Klan member and pump information. They would talk about, you know, David Duke's family and like just have normal conversations that would inevitably turn back to racism and the weakening of the white race at the hands of, you know, the Jewish media and all the minorities who were taking over. And so it would inevitably turn disgusting. But he said later, I think in the book and in interviews where if you could separate that stuff out, he was actually a pleasant person to talk to. And that's where that weird friendship that he characterized it as kind of developed from those conversations. But there is.

• 31:29Speaker 02

  Like you couldn't make this stuff up, you know?

• 31:31Josh Clark?

  Exactly. But there is at least one video of David Duke basically admitting that yes, this, he had conversations with this guy. He tries to downplay it.

• 31:40Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 31:40Josh Clark?

  But he does basically verify that yes, that's true. That really happened.

• 31:45Speaker 02

  Well, and Duke's probably like, I can't remember every phone call I had with every random racist over the years.

• 31:52Josh Clark?

  Right. There were a lot of them.

• 31:53Speaker 02

  Even this guy posing as one. All right. Well, let's take another break and we're going to go, we're going to talk a little bit more about this weird David Duke relationship right after this.

• 32:20Josh Clark?

  Buy smart, drive for less and trade for more. That's Toyota affordability. And it all starts with a great deal on the truck from your local Toyota dealer.

• 32:29Speaker 02

  That's right. Make a smart buy on the off-road ready Tacoma or half-ton Tundra, two of Toyota's most capable. And longest lasting trucks built with the strength for the tough jobs, the tech to power your next big adventure and the rugged style for everything in between.

• 32:42Josh Clark?

  Or discover Toyota's off-road lineup, including the iconic 4Runner and Land Cruiser, designed to go beyond the everyday. And with Toyota's proven reputation for quality and reliability, plus hybrid power on many models, you can get more for every mile and drive for less along the way.

• 32:58Speaker 02

  That's right. And long after you leave the lot, your Toyota keeps delivering with great resale value. So you could trade in for more when you're ready for your next Toyota. From a great deal today to a great value tomorrow, a Toyota is right for you. Shop toyota.com for deals and details, or stop by your local Toyota dealer today. Toyota, let's go places.

• 33:22Speaker 02

  Hey everybody, the holidays are coming up, so let us throw this out there. Are you prepared to host friends or family, like really prepared? Because there's a difference between having people stay at your house and properly hosting them.

• 33:34Josh Clark?

  Yeah, that's what we thought. So maybe it's time for a little refresh. Well, we have a tip. For all things hosting, Wayfair delivers high-quality, customer-trusted products for your home, so you can host and celebrate without the stress.

• 33:47Speaker 02

  That's right. Whether you're just swapping out a busted appliance or going all in, on a top-to-bottom home makeover for the holidays, Wayfair has you covered. Thousands of products, every style, every budget.

• 33:57Josh Clark?

  And it's all built for real life. Every item is hand-vetted by specialists with a 10-point quality inspection. And on top of that, with over 20 million verified five-star reviews, you can have total confidence in all the picks you make.

• 34:09Speaker 02

  So remember, when refreshing your home this holiday season, Wayfair delivers exactly what you need. Just head to wayfair.com to shop all things home. That's W-A-Y-F-A-I-R dot com.

• 34:25Josh Clark?

  Everyone has a story to tell. What's yours? The moment you met your partner, landed that promotion? For people living with a rare disease, life can feel divided into before the diagnosis and all the after moments that follow. On Voices of Vivgart, Vivgart is also known as its generic name, Fgartigamod Alpha F-Cab, you'll hear powerful stories from People facing challenges and embracing a life with a rare disease.

• 34:49Speaker 02

  Join host Andra Stratten as she guides listeners through honest conversations about life after diagnosis. You'll hear how each guest worked with her care team on their treatment plan, as well as their personal challenges, setbacks, progress, and moments of connection.

• 35:01Josh Clark?

  These stories reveal that life is bigger than a moment, a condition, or a tough day. Listen to Voices of Vivgard on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 35:26Speaker 02

  All right, so he's buddying up with David Duke on the phone. He's fooling everybody. And he even, like, you get the sense that he does have a little bit of sense of humor, Stallworth, because at one point, he even goaded him on the phone a little bit, and this is in the movie, and it was totally true.

• 35:45Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 35:45Speaker 02

  He said, you know, "Mr. Duke, have you ever worried about, like, a black man posing as a white man and infiltrating your organization?" And Duke said, "No." And he said, and this is from the NPR interview with Stallworth, he said, "I can tell you're white because you don't talk like a black man." He said, "You talk like a very smart, intellectual white man, and I can tell by the way you pronounce certain words." And he said, you know, "Give me an example." And he said, "Black people tend to pronounce the word "r", "aura," and I can tell by listening to you that you're not black because you do not pronounce that word in that manner." It's science.

• 36:24Josh Clark?

  Case closed.

• 36:25Speaker 02

  Oh, boy. He was so easily duped. I love it. And then they also did, in fact, meet in person. That part is true as well. Duke came to town and was having lunch. It was not a big ceremony, like in the movie, but he came to town to have lunch, and the department assigned- Stallworth to protect him. And so he goes there to the restaurant, introduces himself to protect him. Duke says, all right, I appreciate you them, you know, sending someone my way. And Chuck is undercover there as well. And he does, in fact, Stallworth posed with David Duke and gets a Polaroid with him.

• 37:06Josh Clark?

  So this sounded to me like, what was the, what was going on here? Like, I mean, like, you've got this investigation going. This is, this takes place during this undercover investigation that Stallworth's conducting. You have a guy who's already like putting himself out there, Chuck, as, as the white Ron Stallworth. And then the chief says, oh, yes, by the way, you, the only African American police officer in our entire squad, you go be David Duke's bodyguard for the day while he's in town in Colorado Springs. Like, that was just bizarre. And not only do it, do that, that very like obvious overt act, slap in

• 37:48Josh Clark?

  the face to David Duke, which was great, but if it, but it could have jeopardized like this whole, this whole thing, because you also, you had the guy portraying Ron Stallworth in the same room at the same lunch. It just seemed really strange. And again, that was one of those things where when you watch the movie, you would think like, well, that's just made up. No, that actually took place, at least according to Ron Stallworth's memoirs. And that, that Chuck was in the room, was asked to take a picture by Ron Stallworth with David Duke and the Grand Dragon, I guess, who must be like the head of the state in Colorado. And then at the last second, when he was counting down, he put his arms around

• 38:29Josh Clark?

  the shoulders of the two Klan guys, and then got his hands on the picture. Apparently, all of that was the case, but he's since lost the picture.

• 38:37Speaker 02

  Yeah. And Duke really did try to get it back. And Stallworth like got to it quicker and said, basically like, if you try to take this thing, I will have you arrested for assaulting a police officer. Like, don't do it. Don't think about it.

• 38:49Josh Clark?

  Right. So he said he lost it in a move. He wished he had taken better care of it. But The idea that it was like, that's just so nuts. It tells you a lot about the investigation, though, to me. Like, it makes you say, like, okay, how seriously were they taking this investigation at the time? If Stallworth later said, all right, this is, this is just, you know, this is just another job to me. When I started it, I did the job, and then when it was done, I moved on to another job. The fact that he didn't talk about it much until, I think he spoke about it to the press once in 2006 in a Deseret News article, and then didn't talk about it again until 2014, when his memoirs came out.

• 39:32Josh Clark?

  It was just like a thing that they were doing, that other people were doing other stuff, too. And then to have like that part of it, that the idea that you would jeopardize it in that way, just makes it seem like they weren't taking it as that big of a, an operation, as like the movie would like to believe. I'm not sure.

• 39:52Speaker 02

  Well, I think in, in real life, it was, it was a information gathering investigation. Like, it was never, we're gonna take down the Klan in Colorado. It was, let's infiltrate and get as much information and fact finding as we can. And in the end, after eight months, that's kind of what happened. It was, he considers, Stallworth considers it a success in that they fulfilled their mission. They did prevent three cross burning ceremonies during that eight month span or a nine month span.

• 40:24Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 40:25Speaker 02

  And they did identify Klan members who worked at NORAD.

• 40:30Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 40:30Speaker 02

  Who apparently, they said they, I mean, these days they would be fired probably, but they said they reassigned them to like Greenland or something.

• 40:38Josh Clark?

  Right, because they had access to the, to nuclear weapons. Apparently, they had very high level clearance at NORAD.

• 40:45Speaker 02

  Which is scary. And then they also found plans that they didn't act on. Like, the whole bomb plot in the movie was, was made up for dramatic purposes, but they did find links between, for a plan to...

• 41:00Speaker 02

  Bomb a gay nightclub and another plan to steal automatic weapons from an army base, like an inside job.

• 41:06Josh Clark?

  Mm-hmm.

• 41:07Speaker 02

  So it was, you know, it was valuable work they were doing, for sure. It just wasn't like, we're gonna take the Klan down. Like, I don't think it was the department's big, uh, big job at the time.

• 41:17Josh Clark?

  No, certainly not. And in the memoirs and in the movie, too, the, the reason that's given for the, um, the undercover operation to end is because it started to become successful. Ron Stallworth was nominated to lead the Colorado Springs chapter of the Klan. Like, Ken Odell basically said, "You should take my job. Everybody likes you. You're really good at this. You're smart. You should lead the Klan here." Uh, and the, the police chief of Colorado Springs said, "That's it. Close it down. Burn all the evidence of this investigation." He apparently was worried about what, what a PR nightmare it would be if it got out that some of his detectives were in the Colorado Springs Klan.

• 41:59Josh Clark?

  But at the same time, what strikes me as odd is that the FBI wasn't like, "Oh, well, jeez, this guy is, like, being nominated to lead the Colorado Springs Klan."

• 42:09Speaker 02

  Right.

• 42:10Josh Clark?

  He's talking to David Duke. Like, really, this, this could not be kind of blown up into a larger investigation or a larger sting or something like that? And then, secondly, and, um, Ron Stallworth himself addresses this, there's a very frequently a criticism of, "Well, if this was such a big operation and they found all this stuff, why wasn't anyone arrested? Why weren't there any arrests?"

• 42:32Speaker 02

  Well, that's what David Duke says.

• 42:34Josh Clark?

  Right. Not just David Duke. Stallworth says also that some, that in law enforcement, too, people question that. Like, why wasn't anyone arrested? And he said it was an intel investigation and, and that's what they did, is they gathered stuff. But then he very rightly points out, like you said, like, the fact that they prevented cross-burnings alone makes it a worthwhile and valuable operation. I think just some people on the outside are saying, "Well, why wasn't, why wasn't more done? Why didn't more come out of this?" You know?

• 43:03Speaker 02

  Well-

• 43:04Josh Clark?

  And I'm not quite sure what they're driving at, but there are, you know, Stallworth brings that up in an interview I read with him, like, that people do ask that and wonder about that.

• 43:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, and Stallworth, uh- Is very proud of the fact that with the cross burnings, he was like, no, I can't remember the quote, but he said something about like, no children in Colorado Springs got to, you know, no young black kids had to see crosses on fire during that eight or nine month period. And he's very proud of that, as he should be.

• 43:30Josh Clark?

  Yeah, for real.

• 43:31Speaker 02

  So I mentioned The Voice earlier and the fact that he had a different voice, obviously, than Chuck. And he said, one time, only one time, and I think this was in the movie, wasn't it?

• 43:43Speaker 02

  Or was it?

• 43:44Josh Clark?

  Yeah, it was, actually. No, it was. I remember.

• 43:46Speaker 02

  Yeah. So one time in the whole investigation, did someone say like, wait a minute, you sound different. Chuck had just been at a in-person meeting, came back, and then Stallworth wants to follow up on the phone with Ken Odell about something right afterward. So he had just heard Chuck's voice for whatever, this whole meeting, and was talking to him. And he was like, wait a minute, you sound different. What's going on? And he just pulled it off. He coughed and said he had a sinus infection. And Ken Odell was like, oh, well, here's how you clear that up, and gave him some good sinus medication advice.

• 44:21Josh Clark?

  Right. Yeah, that definitely appeared in the movie.

• 44:24Speaker 02

  I mean, you could not make this thing up, you know? It's crazy.

• 44:27Josh Clark?

  No, for real. No, apparently, for a long time, Stallworth was saying like, yeah, it was just another job. It was just another operation. And I guess he told some fellow, like, law enforcement friends or whatever about it. And they're like, dude, you, this is a movie. You need to write this down. You need to get this out there. You, this is a one in a million story.

• 44:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, I wonder, one reason it didn't go bigger operation-wise was because the sort of hackneyed way they got into it, like, he's The Voice, but they're sending a white man. Like, it's, I'm surprised he pulled it off for that long.

• 45:03Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I could totally see that.

• 45:05Speaker 02

  One final thing that did not happen in real life, but did happen in the movie, and this is what, when you usually will change real life, is to get a more satisfying ending. But Stallworth did not, unfortunately, reveal his true identity to David Duke like he does to hilarious effect in the film, unfortunately.

• 45:26Josh Clark?

  No.

• 45:27Speaker 02

  How sad to learn that.

• 45:28Josh Clark?

  He was saying like, yeah, he just, he didn't really talk about it until the 2000s. So David Duke didn't know until, I guess, the memoirs came out.

• 45:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, and you know, well, I guess we should talk about Spike Lee getting criticized. Boots Riley, director, who I had on Movie Crush, by the way.

• 45:47Josh Clark?

  I know. What was his movie?

• 45:50Speaker 02

  Sorry to Bother You was his film that he made.

• 45:53Josh Clark?

  No, I mean, his pick for Movie Crush.

• 45:55Speaker 02

  His pick was a movie called Mishima: A Life in Four Chapters.

• 46:00Josh Clark?

  Okay.

• 46:00Speaker 02

  Yeah. It was a great film, and his, like, his knowledge on movies was deep. He turned me on to a lot of cool things.

• 46:08Josh Clark?

  I thought for a very, a very terrible second, you were saying his pick was his own movie.

• 46:12Speaker 02

  No, no. But he, you know, Boots does not hold back on what he thinks. And while you would think that he would be like, oh, no, I'm gonna be a champion of Spike Lee and telling the story, he came out very publicly on Twitter and very intelligently criticized it. He didn't just bag on it. He wrote a big, long statement on exactly what he thought was wrong with it.

• 46:37Josh Clark?

  Yeah, he basically said, look, man, if you take away all the embellishments that Spike Lee added to this movie, what you have is a guy who, who's probably biggest assignment, and I'm not sure where he got this, but he focused on that, that Stokely Carmichael thing, and the fact that Ron Stallworth had worked undercover to infiltrate the Black Power movement in Colorado Springs, and that he had worked on that for like, three years, and that this Klan thing was just a, like, a nine-month thing. And he also criticized Spike Lee for making it, making the movie seem like law enforcement and the Black Power movement came together to fight racism.

• 47:17Speaker 02

  Right.

• 47:18Josh Clark?

  And that, like, that was a larger point, or that that was historically accurate, or something like that. It was a really interesting, it was like, a three-page essay that he posted on Twitter that made some good points. He basically said, from what I can tell, it looks like Ron Stallworth was working for COINTELPRO, which is the FBI's...

• 47:40Josh Clark?

  It was their, their program to undermine groups, including black power groups, which we mentioned it in the Black Panther episode we did. And they, COINTELPRO definitely deserves its own episode.

• 47:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 47:53Josh Clark?

  And it was, it was ended officially in 1971, but I think Boots Riley's point was, it may have been officially ended, but the, the work was still going on. And if this guy was infiltrating black power, like groups in Colorado Springs, he was almost certainly trying to break them up, one way or another, probably using COINTEL purposes or practices. And Ron Stallworth, he had a pretty great quote in response to it. He said, "I pray for my demented, dissolute brother," in response to Boots Riley. And Spike Lee has no comment about it whatsoever. So who knows, but you make a good point that like he's, he's,

• 48:36Josh Clark?

  he's not just giving like blind allegiance to anything.

• 48:39Speaker 02

  Sure. Well, Spike did comment eventually.

• 48:42Josh Clark?

  Oh, I didn't see that.

• 48:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, he was, he was in an interview and the first thing he said was like, "Hey, I'm a, I'm a young man of 61," or something like that. And like, you know, young me might've kind of gotten into a war of words, but he's just not into that anymore. But he did say briefly something about, "Listen, I'm not going to come out and say that all cops are racist and all cops do bad things because they don't all do bad things. There's a lot of great cops. There's also bad cops." And he kind of just couched it in that and then was like, "But you know, I'm not going to be really talking about this anymore."

• 49:18Josh Clark?

  Right. Yeah, I hadn't seen that he'd even had that comment.

• 49:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 49:23Josh Clark?

  So it's interesting stuff and it's a good movie at the very least.

• 49:27Speaker 02

  Oh, for sure.

• 49:28Josh Clark?

  You know, I think, I think Ron Stallworth's like, "Man, they made a movie about my story. That's pretty awesome." And at the very least, it's a pretty great movie. How about that?

• 49:37Speaker 02

  Totally.

• 49:38Josh Clark?

  Totally. So if you, you got anything else?

• 49:41Speaker 02

  I got nothing else.

• 49:42Josh Clark?

  If you want to know more about Black Klansmen, you should probably go see that movie. And I guess we probably should have said at the outset, this episode is not an ad.

• 49:50Speaker 02

  Oh, of course not.

• 49:51Josh Clark?

  We just like the movie a lot, right?

• 49:54Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, you could say it's an ad, but like no one gave us money or asked us to do this.

• 49:59Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 50:00Speaker 02

  But I am endorsing it.

• 50:02Josh Clark?

  Okay, there you go. I am endorsing it as well. It has two thumbs up, as it were.

• 50:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 50:07Josh Clark?

  Rest in peace Roger Ebert and Gene Siskel.

• 50:10Speaker 02

  Two thumbs.

• 50:12Josh Clark?

  Okay, so if, or I already said that. How about some listener mail?

• 50:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm gonna call this ping pong response from a former pro.

• 50:22Josh Clark?

  Oh, nice.

• 50:22Speaker 02

  Hey guys, want to commend you on the job you did, covering a sport that you didn't have an extensive extensive knowledge of. I'm a professional table tennis coach and former player. I started playing in college, thought I was really good, until I was coerced to go to a tournament at Princeton University about 20 years ago, and I got destroyed. I didn't like that, so I sought out to coach, and the rest is history. You guys clearly did a lot of research and to highlight the things that most novice players aren't aware of, but there were a few things I couldn't help but point out. Josh, you mentioned the components of the modern racket. You said the pimpled sign, those are called pips, are for spinning the ball, that the smooth side is for defensive play, but the opposite is actually true.

• 51:02Josh Clark?

  Oh, no.

• 51:03Speaker 02

  I didn't catch that, because I would have pointed that out. I thought everyone knew that.

• 51:08Josh Clark?

  Thank you for that.

• 51:10Speaker 02

  You get good spin on that smooth side.

• 51:12Josh Clark?

  For real?

• 51:13Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, yeah. It's grippy.

• 51:15Josh Clark?

  Alright.

• 51:16Speaker 02

  He said the smooth side is very tacky, as in sticky. And that combined with the sponge underneath allows the ball to sink in just enough so that the tacky surface grips the ball and generates a lot of spin. Also, you can have, really have any combination of rubber that you want, as long as it's ITTF approved. Players are not restricted to having one smooth side and one with pips, but one side does have to be red and the other black. Most defensive players use pips on their backhand, because pips vary the spin that is coming back at you, and is very hard to read. Also Chuck, you mentioned that defensive players are called chislers. They're actually called choppers, as they chop the ball back with varying backspin.

• 51:58Speaker 02

  I've never heard the term chislers. I'm wondering if it is extremely outdated.

• 52:02Josh Clark?

  Maybe.

• 52:03Speaker 02

  I bet you that was the case.

• 52:05Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 52:06Speaker 02

  I had old research. Chislers!

• 52:08Josh Clark?

  All right, that's what they call it in the 20s.

• 52:12Speaker 02

  He said, if you guys are ever in the Dunellen, New Jersey area, stop by

• 52:15Josh Clark?

  We're there right now.

• 52:17Speaker 02

  Stop by the Lilly Yip Table Tennis Club, and I'll gladly hook you guys up with a lesson.

• 52:22Josh Clark?

  I will gladly humiliate you in person.

• 52:25Speaker 02

  And that is Thomas from Philly.

• 52:27Josh Clark?

  Thanks, Thomas. Much appreciated. We like it when we are gently corrected because we like to be right. So thanks for that. If you want to get in touch with us, let us know, I don't know, something we got wrong about black Klansmen, let us know. You can find all of our social links on stuffyoushouldknow.com. And as always, send us an email to [email protected].

• 52:57Speaker 03

  For more on this and thousands of other topics, visit howstuffworks.com.

• 53:11Josh Clark?

  Buy smart, drive for less, and trade for more. That's Toyota affordability. And it starts with a great deal on an off-road-ready Tacoma or half-ton Tundra, two of Toyota's longest-lasting trucks, combining power for work, tech for adventures, and style in between. And they're built on a reputation for quality and reliability, which is why Toyota trucks are known for holding their value, which could mean big savings when it's time for your next Toyota. So get a great deal today and a great value tomorrow. Shop toyota.com for more. Toyota, let's go places. Introducing Voices of Vivgard. Vivgard is also known as its generic name, Fgard Tigamod Alpha F-Cab. And this new show features firsthand stories from people living with a rare disease.

• 53:53Josh Clark?

  Hosted by Andrew Stratton, these perspectives highlight that life is more than a moment, a condition, or a tough day. Living with a rare disease can be challenging, but it does not define the Voices of Vivgard. In these episodes, they share their stories, from diagnosis to working with their care team on their treatment plan. Listen to Voices of Vivgard on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 54:15Speaker 02

  Long hours, work deadlines, family commitments. You give so much to everyone else. Isn't it time to invest in yourself? The University of Arizona Global Campus is built for working adults with flexible online degree programs designed to fit your adult life. Your previous education, training, and eligible experience may even help you earn college credit. At UAGC, you can take one accelerated course at a time, helping you move toward your goals in five- and six-week class formats. Just visit UAGC.edu today.

• 54:46Speaker 00

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed human.