Pod Insights Stuff You Should Know SYSK’s Summer Movie Playlist: Why was Titicut Follies banned? About this episode Titicut Follies is a documentary made famous by its banning. But why was it banned? And what was it even about? Listen in to learn all you need to know about this infamous doc.
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Transcript 10,570 words · 7 speakers
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0:00 Speaker 00 This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.
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1:09 Speaker 02 Hey, everybody, and welcome to the summer movie playlist. Chuck here, introducing today's show, which is, I think, maybe the last one in the series on Ted and Cut Follies. So this is not, I guess we're ending on sort of a down note because this isn't some fun, talk about a fun movie. It's some pretty serious talk about a pretty sad documentary, but it's a remarkable film in its own way and has its place in film history. So we thought it was a pretty good episode. We hope you enjoy it all over again.
1:44 Speaker 03 Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeart Radio.
1:54 Josh Clark? Hey and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh and there's Chuck and this is Stuff You Should Know. Just us today. Jerry's on vacation and that's cool.
2:04 Speaker 02 Yeah, I think Jerry's in Disney World. Kind of went right after me.
2:09 Josh Clark? She's in the D.
2:10 Speaker 02 I said, hey Jerry, in the south bathroom of Frontierland, above the toilet. I've left, I've taped a gun. Go shoot Mo Green.
2:22 Josh Clark? Oh my gosh.
2:23 Speaker 02 Go shoot Mo Green in the restaurant booth.
2:24 Josh Clark? Wow. No, Mo Green got it on the massage table.
2:28 Speaker 02 Oh, that's right.
2:30 Josh Clark? The police commissioner or the police chief?
2:33 Speaker 02 Yeah, yeah, yeah. I can't believe I messed that up.
2:35 Josh Clark? He was tangential to the hit with the bathroom. I don't remember who he was trying to hit.
2:41 Speaker 02 That's right. I goofed that up. Hey, shout out to.
2:46 Josh Clark? Wait, no, I'm not done sorting this out.
2:47 Speaker 02 Okay, go ahead. Name all the hits in The Godfather.
2:51 Josh Clark? Go ahead.
2:52 Speaker 02 Shout out to our pal and friend of the show, Kevin Pollak. Because that made me think of the great, great show that is one of my favorite shows called Better Things. From the wonderful, talented Pamela Adlon. They are entering their final season and I watched the first episode the other night and Pollak, who plays her brother on the show, had a great line that I knew was improv'd where he was getting in his car and I can't remember what they were talking about and he said, "Right in the eye like Mo Green." And I texted him immediately and I was like, "Right in the eye like Mo Green." I was like, "That was yours." And he went, "Oh yeah." He said, "That was improv'd."
3:29 Josh Clark? Nice.
3:30 Speaker 02 It was very fun. It's always fun to be able to watch a TV show and text your pal that's on that TV show.
3:36 Josh Clark? Right, yeah. He's got, he's got the best parts. He just pops up in all the best stuff, you know?
3:40 Speaker 02 Yeah, he's in Maisel. He's, I think, and I've talked to Pollak about this and he's like, "Yeah, I agree. I think he could star in a really great indie film. I just think he's a really great actor and he's great at comedy, but I think he's on top of that, just a really, really great actor."
3:58 Josh Clark? Didn't he star in that Project Greenlight film?
4:02 Speaker 02 I don't know, did he?
4:03 Josh Clark? Which one? I'm pretty, I'm pretty sure. I think the first season.
4:07 Speaker 02 Oh, boy, I don't remember those movies. I know that Shia LaBeouf, that was where he got his start.
4:12 Josh Clark? Is that right?
4:13 Speaker 02 Was he in one of those, The Battle of Shaker Heights or something?
4:16 Josh Clark? I think that might have been the one that Pollock was in.
4:18 Speaker 02 Was he in that? I didn't remember that movie. But I mean, a really good movie, and I'm not sure the Project Greenlight movie.
4:25 Speaker 02 It was a cool show, though. I dug it.
4:26 Josh Clark? Yeah, yeah.
4:27 Speaker 02 I'm surprised they hadn't brought that back in the iPhone filmmaking age.
4:31 Josh Clark? Yeah, it's a little surprising. Who would be, who would bring it back, though, now?
4:36 Speaker 02 Ben and Matt could bring it back. I mean, that's who did it the first time, right?
4:39 Josh Clark? Sure, but I mean, are they still relevant? Aren't there two, like, younger versions of them?
4:43 Speaker 02 The new Ben and Matt? Uh, I don't know who the new Ben and Matt are.
4:48 Josh Clark? How about, um, Wiz Khalifa? And?
4:53 Speaker 02 Charlamagne the God.
4:54 Josh Clark? Sure, there you go.
4:55 Speaker 02 All right, great. Anyway, Kevin Pollock's a great actor and a good dude.
5:00 Josh Clark? Yeah, agreed. And, um, probably somebody, I would guess, who's seen the movie that we're gonna talk about today. I would be really surprised if he hasn't seen it, just because I feel like if you are into movies, if you're a movie maker, if you are, if you consider yourself a cinephile, if you wanna get punched in the stomach, you've probably seen Titty Cut Follies, right?
5:23 Speaker 02 Yeah, I mean, this is one that I saw in film class in college. It is one that you, there's about a 50/50 chance that you will see this if you've seen it in film class in a college. People like Casey, our colleague Casey Pegram, no doubt is a Frederick Weisman fan. I'm surely, if I texted him, he'd be like, oh, sure, Weisman, yes.
5:42 Josh Clark? Yeah.
5:43 Speaker 02 Although I found Titty Cut Follies was not one of his greatest works.
5:46 Josh Clark? Yeah, that sounds like Casey.
5:47 Speaker 02 God bless Casey, uh, all-time greatest movie crush guest. But, um, yeah, Fred, Fred Weisman, uh, made this film. He was a law professor in his 30s in the 60s. And made this documentary film about a a mental institution, specifically one for the criminally insane, is what they called it.
6:10 Josh Clark? Yeah.
6:10 Speaker 02 And it was a very, you know, it was a movie that gained a lot of reputation as like the most disturbing film you've ever seen. And it's been banned in this many places and and that kind of thing. But when you kind of peel it back, it's just a very straight up sort of cinema verite documentary about a institution that needed to get their act together.
6:31 Josh Clark? Right. And that was kind of Wiseman's whole jam. Like, he's made forty eight films. I think he just turned ninety two a couple of months ago.
6:39 Speaker 02 Amazing.
6:40 Josh Clark? And starting in nineteen sixty six, he he made about a film a year.
6:45 Speaker 02 Yeah.
6:45 Josh Clark? And he has his own style, like you said, cinema verite, which I feel like we should probably kind of just go ahead and and explain, don't you?
6:53 Speaker 02 Sure. Yeah, go ahead.
6:54 Josh Clark? Go ahead, film guy.
6:58 Speaker 02 Uh, well, cinema verite, I mean, what's the direct translation?
7:01 Josh Clark? Direct cinema?
7:03 Speaker 02 Yeah, direct cinema. And it's the idea that you kind of set a camera up and let it let life happen in front of it for whatever your subject is. You don't you don't do interviews, you don't do talking head shots, you don't, um, you you it's really just, uh, one good example is that documentary in the, of course, now I can't think of it, um, in the seventies about the American family that ran on PBS that was so groundbreaking, where they just set up a camera and followed this family. And if you're thinking, it sounds a lot like reality TV. I think in its purest form, reality TV can be this.
7:40 Josh Clark? Sure.
7:40 Speaker 02 But it really turned into something else entirely.
7:43 Josh Clark? Oh, yeah, it's just so deeply manipulated by producers behind the scenes who tell them to do this or that or whatever.
7:49 Speaker 02 Yeah.
7:50 Josh Clark? Cinema Veritas would not, would not want to do that. They, they just shoot and hope, hope also that people act like themselves. That's another thing. And one thing Frederick Weisman, the guy who made Titty Cut Follies, said like, he believed that people basically acted like themselves when the camera was around because people are in general lousy actors.
8:12 Speaker 02 Yeah, we can attest to that.
8:14 Josh Clark? They're behaving like you would expect them to behave. So they're probably acting like they would without the cameras, especially in a cinema verite kind of setup because it's, it's intrusive. There's a camera there, but it's not nearly as intrusive as like a camera on like some rig that's flying around. Like there's lighting people, gappers and a craft services table that's calling your name. It's just much less intrusive than that. It's minimally intrusive as far as filmmaking goes. And that's the point of it because they want to document reality without leading the, the viewer as much as possible, from what I understand.
8:50 Speaker 02 Yeah, that's exactly it. And I love cinema verite documentaries especially. And I also like sort of quasi cinema verite where there's a lot of, like, I don't mind interviews being put in there. As long as there's a lot of just sort of watching life happen. It's really amazingly engrossing. There were these two filmmakers that I think inspired Weisman, Richard Leacock and Robert Drew, who in the early, I think in the 50s and early 1960s were kind of dabbling in cinema verite documentaries. And they made one in particular called Mooney versus Fowl,
9:31 Speaker 02 which is about a high school football championship and Mooney and Fowl are the two coaches. And I watched the trailer for that today. I guess his, I'm guessing it's his daughter that put this up on Vimeo, along with some other like interviews with her dad, Drew's daughter, that it's really engrossing just to watch. And especially because all you see, if you're a modern person in 2022, and you're like, what was life like in the 1950s? You don't get that from I Love Lucy and Dick Van Dyke. Like, those are great shows. But to be able to just sit in and take a peek at these high school football coaches and these people, the community in the stands and these players, like, it's just so engrossing to me. Not everyone's cup of tea, but I really like it.
10:16 Josh Clark? Yeah, no, totally. But.
10:19 Josh Clark? Yeah, I feel like even even if it isn't your cup of tea, you would, like you said, be engrossed by it. I don't think there's any way to just be like. No, I don't know. Some people would probably find it dull. I'm sure there are, but it's it's just it is engrossing. I don't think there's any other way to universally describe it.
10:35 Speaker 02 Yeah. And Drew, I sent you that one little interview snippet. I don't know if you saw it. But he sort of was talking about being a new form of journalism.
10:44 Josh Clark? Yeah.
10:45 Speaker 02 Where he talked about, you know, it's like, you know, they're like, well, what is this, though? And he was like, well, it's like a play without a playwright or a movie without actors or journalism without opinions. And I was like, oh, well, that's interesting to say in the 1950s.
11:00 Josh Clark? Yeah, all the way back then.
11:01 Speaker 02 Yeah, but it's um, he they saw it as uh, Leelock and I think Drew saw it more as a form of journalism. And I feel like that's what documentaries used to be, and that's changed a lot. Sometimes for the better. It can be all things, I guess, but it seems like documentaries used to be way more journalism and less in big time entertainment.
11:20 Josh Clark? Yeah. What do you think about? How do you feel about recreations and documentaries?
11:26 Speaker 02 I think it can be cool if you have a good uh, like a new spin on it. Kind of like when The Kid Stays in the Picture came out.
11:36 Speaker 02 The documentary about the producer, what's his face?
11:38 Josh Clark? Robert Evans?
11:39 Speaker 02 Yeah, Robert Evans.
11:40 Josh Clark? The Godfather?
11:41 Speaker 02 Yeah, exactly. Full circle. They did those recreations through animation and this really cool style of animation that like was really engaging and awesome and like recrees can be really cool if you do it right, I think.
11:52 Josh Clark? Yeah.
11:53 Speaker 02 Or really bad if it's like some dumb uh, cop show on TV.
11:58 Josh Clark? Oh, yeah, like um.
11:59 Speaker 02 But those are kind of fun, too.
12:01 Josh Clark? Yeah, you mean like the one headline news shows a hundred episodes a day forensic files?
12:07 Speaker 02 I haven't seen it, but if it's the recrees I'm thinking of where it's like, you know, they recreated murder on like, you got $500 to shoot this.
12:14 Josh Clark? Yes, that's exactly right. You're thinking of forensic files, but still, if you watch enough of it, it'll really like your whole life will turn dark.
12:21 Speaker 02 Yeah.
12:22 Josh Clark? You gotta be careful with forensic files, everybody.
12:24 Speaker 02 So should we go back and talk about Bridgewater State Hospital?
12:28 Josh Clark? Yeah, because it's the place where Frederick Wiseman showed up with his camera, um, with permission, as we'll see. And by the time he got there in 19, I think he shot in 1965? Maybe 1966.
12:42 Speaker 02 Yeah, 66.
12:42 Josh Clark? Okay, when he got there, it had been around for over 100 years. It didn't start out as a state hospital. It started out as a poorhouse, an almshouse, I think all the way back in 1854.
12:56 Speaker 02 Yeah, and it's interesting when you read these, it's disturbing, but when you read these old timey classifications in medicine, or especially in mental health, where someone be, you know, the description of someone that might be put there might just be bad. Like, that's one of the descriptions.
13:14 Josh Clark? Right, like, that'd be, that'd be on par with, like, labeling them alcoholic, or schizophrenia, or something like that.
13:24 Speaker 02 Yeah, but, you know, if you were, if you had an alcohol problem, or you had legitimate, you know, mental health issues, or if you were pregnant, maybe, or blind, or you had syphilis, you might have been put in this poorhouse in 1854.
13:40 Josh Clark? Right, so.
13:42 Speaker 02 In Massachusetts, by the way.
13:43 Josh Clark? Yeah, I don't know if we said that or not.
13:44 Speaker 02 Yeah.
13:45 Josh Clark? So that's how it started out, and then over time, they started adding criminals, and focused more on criminals and the mentally ill. And then by the time 1895 rolled around, it became the state asylum for insane criminals at the state workhouse at Bridgewater. And then eventually, it became known as Bridgewater State Hospital, I think by 1909. And then, very crucially here, it was handed over from the State Board of Charity, because remember, it started out as a poorhouse, over to the Massachusetts Bureau of Prison. So for all intents and purposes, at least bureaucratically speaking,
14:27 Josh Clark? it is a, is a place where the criminally insane, how they were termed in the 20th century, is, are held.
14:35 Speaker 02 Yeah, and there were some bad criminals in there. I mean, there were murderers. There were people who were convicted of cannibalism, of rape of children, or just generally of rape. So there were some bad dudes in there for sure. But then there were also, and this was sort of one of the saddest things about sort of that time in this country. Those people were right alongside other people who either committed a very minor crime or maybe didn't commit a crime at all, and they were just quote unquote, being held there temporarily. But that could stretch on into years.
15:12 Josh Clark? Yeah, there's still something today called civil commitment. And it's basically that you were being held not because of a crime or because of a minor crime, and you maybe have even served your sentence. But you're being held because you had been deemed mentally unfit to return to society. Even though maybe you didn't even start out like in a mental hospital. Maybe you started out in jail and then you're just a troublemaker. They considered you a troublemaker in jail and you got sent to the hospital. At that point, your sentence was just, it just went away. It was you were there until a doctor decided you should be let out. And the problem was getting the attention of a doctor long enough to say, oh, actually, you're, you're fine.
15:55 Josh Clark? They can let you out was really difficult to do. And so it was a really desperate place, especially for people who didn't feel like they should be there or belong there. Because after a while, it seemed to exert its influence on your mind and your outlook. And it would, it would bend you to, to reflect it. So that you kind of needed to be there after a while, even if you didn't start out that way.
16:19 Speaker 02 Yeah, I mean, anyone who's ever seen One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest is kind of exactly that happens in the plot. Like people got worse at these places.
16:28 Josh Clark? Right.
16:29 Speaker 02 And you mentioned the, the medical, actual medical attention. President of the Massachusetts Bar Association at the time, Paul Tamburello. And a big thanks to Olivia for digging this up and putting this together for us. But he told the Harvard Crimson back then that of the 650 men held at the hospital at the time, actual medical staff were able to see less than half of them one time a year for about 20 minutes.
16:55 Josh Clark? Right.
16:55 Speaker 02 So other than that, you're like, well, then who was it if it wasn't medical staff? It was like prison guards.
17:02 Josh Clark? Right.
17:02 Speaker 02 Basically.
17:03 Josh Clark? Yes. And even then, when you did get that 20 minutes, you were confronted by a person or group of people who were going on the premise that everything you said came out of your mouth was loony.
17:14 Speaker 02 Right.
17:14 Josh Clark? And not based in reality or fact. No matter how well you put your case or stated your case or complained, like, any show of emotion would just prove to them that you were meant to be in there for another year until they could hopefully see you again and reevaluate you.
17:31 Speaker 02 Yeah, there was this one example Olivia found of, geez, it's hard to believe. Matteo Calacocci was arrested in 1927 at my daughter's age, almost, seven years old for stealing seven bucks from a grocery store, which is a pretty good take, 1927, by the way. And he was found incompetent to stand trial and then sent to, kind of sent all around over the years to different institutions. After he tried to escape in 1935, was eventually landed at Bridgewater. And this is another one of those archaic terms, was charged with bad habits and resisting authority. And this seven-year-old eventually ended up here later in life,
18:15 Speaker 02 but stayed there for 28 years and released in 1963. So that's just, just one example of how like, sort of a small petty crime. But if you maybe have an attitude or you're a troublemaker as a kid and you bounce around from place to place, you just might wind up here with no one advocating for you. It kind of, this all made me think of like what families were doing.
18:38 Speaker 02 But I guess at the time, some families were kind of like, maybe convinced themselves they were better off there or they didn't want to deal with the trouble. Or there were no family, I don't know.
18:47 Josh Clark? Yeah. Or their family was poor and had no influence over anybody. So they couldn't do anything about it.
18:54 Speaker 02 Very sad. Should we take a break?
18:55 Josh Clark? Yeah, I say we take a break and we'll come back with Wiseman and his tenure while he was at Bridgewater.
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21:30 Josh Clark? Hey, this is Josh and Chuck from Stuff You Should Know.
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22:39 Josh Clark? So Frederick Weisman had an interesting origin story as a filmmaker. He was, um, he, he went to law school at Yale, supposedly to get out of the Korean War draft. But then, when he graduated, he still ended up getting drafted anyway. And he was in there for almost two years.
22:58 Speaker 02 Kind of after the war, but yeah.
22:59 Josh Clark? Yeah, um, but I still, I'll bet he was not happy about being drafted either way.
23:03 Speaker 02 Sure.
23:04 Josh Clark? So he, uh, he went, he, I guess, went to Korea for a couple of years. And then after the army, he and his wife,
23:13 Josh Clark? what is her name?
23:14 Speaker 02 Zapora Batshaw, great name.
23:16 Josh Clark? Yep, she, she was a law professor as well. They went to Paris, lived for a couple of years, and then decided they needed to move back. So they moved back to like the Boston area. But while there, Frederick Weisman got into filmmaking. He, he started just shooting stuff with a little 8mm camera at about the time that Cinéma Verite was being developed in France.
23:39 Speaker 02 That's right. So like you said, he came back from France, started teaching law at BU, and, uh, Sort of had that filmmaking bug still, so he bought the rights to a book, a novel called The Cool World, about poverty in Harlem, and he hired a woman named Shirley Clark, sorry, to direct it. And it was a very small, I don't think it was much of a big film at all, but it was a very small sort of indie film at the time, which is to say it was probably not seen much. But Wiseman was like, hey, like, if Shirley Clark can do this thing, I can do this thing. And I don't like law school. I don't like teaching law. And one of the things he did, because he didn't love teaching law, was take his class on
24:24 Speaker 02 a lot of field trips, I guess, just to mix things up. And they used to go to Bridgewater. And after a few visits, he was like, wait a minute, I think everything kind of came together. My love, his love of filmmaking, his cinema verite kind of becoming popular and his interest in that, and then his interest, disinterest in law and interest in Bridgewater. So he had this idea to make this film there.
24:46 Josh Clark? Yeah. So as we'll see later, this is kind of crucial, he got permission to show up. He said many times in later interviews, Bridgewater is not the kind of place you just kind of parachute in at night, do all your filming, and then creep away at dawn with all of your footage. Like, he had to get extensive permission from-
25:04 Speaker 02 It sounds like he's done that before, though. Just kind of cool.
25:06 Josh Clark? Yeah. From, we've done that before, too, in grocery stores, remember?
25:10 Speaker 02 Oh, that's right.
25:11 Josh Clark? So he got permission from the lieutenant governor, he got permission from the Department of Corrections head, he got permission of the superintendent of Bridgewater. They all knew he was there. And they would have figured out eventually, anyway, because he spent 29 days filming in Bridgewater. And he would just do his cinema verite style, where he would just walk around and just film stuff, film whatever he could, just film, film, film. And I saw something where he said that for his documentaries, he films anything from like 75 hours at a minimum, Chuck?
25:45 Speaker 02 Oh, wow.
25:46 Josh Clark? Up to 250 hours? And then he goes through it all and edits all the stuff he likes. And then after like month eight of editing, he'll start piecing it together into like a arc, a story arc.
25:59 Speaker 02 Wow. Which boiled down in this case to 83 minutes of, of a movie.
26:03 Josh Clark? Yeah.
26:03 Speaker 02 And the name Titicut Follies comes from, I think Titicut was a Native American name. I would guess somewhere in the region. I didn't really pinpoint that.
26:12 Josh Clark? I think for the Bridgewater area, that's what they called it.
26:14 Speaker 02 Okay. Uh, and the follies were that, you know, the film opens up with a musical performance by the, um, I guess there were inmates. With the song Strike Up The Band where they're all dressed the same and you can see, you can see quite a few clips on YouTube, but, um, as Olivia points out, like Weisman has always been really guarded with how his films are exhibited. And so I don't think you can just like go YouTube this thing up and watch the whole thing still even.
26:43 Josh Clark? I did last night.
26:45 Speaker 02 Oh, on YouTube?
26:46 Josh Clark? Yeah.
26:47 Speaker 02 Okay.
26:47 Josh Clark? And not on YouTube, no, it was on Vimeo.
26:50 Speaker 02 Oh, interesting. All right. I wonder if that's like some sort of pirated upload.
26:54 Josh Clark? It was, it's, it's a, it was a VHS copy put online. So I'm thinking, yeah, it was pirated.
26:59 Speaker 02 Did you watch it all?
27:00 Josh Clark? Yeah, I did. I watched, I'd never seen it before. I was familiar with it, the title. I had not a lot of idea of what it was about, but yeah, it was.
27:08 Speaker 02 What'd you think?
27:09 Josh Clark? Certainly striking. It was really something. Like it had ups and downs and highs and lows. And I think I, it was everything Weisman wanted me to feel about it. It was pretty great.
27:19 Speaker 02 Yeah. I mean, it is great. It's even the 83 minutes, it's tough to sit through the whole thing because I think by its nature, cinema verite can be.
27:29 Josh Clark? Taxing.
27:30 Speaker 02 Yeah. Even while engrossing, it can be pretty taxing. That's the best way to put it. Um, but it's also obviously in this case, it's not about the high school football championship. It's, it's literally watching these people.
27:43 Speaker 02 I mean, I guess we should just talk about some of the scenes, maybe?
27:46 Josh Clark? Yeah. And a lot of the people are going to go back and be like, Justin, this was great. Spare with us, everybody.
27:52 Speaker 02 Yeah. I mean, hey, you're a cinephile.
27:54 Josh Clark? That's right.
27:56 Speaker 02 Punch me in the face.
27:57 Josh Clark? No, the stomach. Face is way too hostile. Stomach's got a little bit of friendliness left in it, you know?
28:04 Speaker 02 Yeah, like Houdini style.
28:05 Josh Clark? Right. Yeah, that'll do.
28:08 Speaker 02 Uh, well, one of the scenes that Livia picked out that certainly stands out in my mind, too. And I think you can actually find parts of this one on YouTube is a guard.
28:18 Speaker 02 I guess, was he dry shaving him? It looked like dry shaving, or was it a wet shave?
28:22 Josh Clark? No, they put like shaving cream on him and everything.
28:25 Speaker 02 Oh, okay.
28:26 Josh Clark? And everybody seems to characterize it as like really rough, like forceful, kind of almost like he's being tortured with the shave.
28:35 Speaker 02 It was fast.
28:36 Josh Clark? It was fast.
28:37 Speaker 02 Yeah.
28:37 Josh Clark? I didn't, it didn't look like it hurt the patient. So it didn't, and it didn't seem like the guy was trying to torture him. It just seemed like he was being very quick and efficient. And he does like cut him at the edge of one of his mouth, one of the edges of the corner of his mouth. Sorry.
28:53 Speaker 02 Right.
28:54 Josh Clark? So he's bleeding a little bit, but he, he doesn't seem like, he doesn't seem in distress at all while he's shaving him. At the very least, he's not in distress because of the shaving.
29:03 Speaker 02 Right.
29:05 Speaker 02 But then what happened?
29:06 Josh Clark? Well, there are these, at least two guards, right? And this inmate, by the way, is named Jim. He's probably the most famous character in the, in the movie.
29:15 Speaker 02 Yeah.
29:16 Josh Clark? Uh, or patient, I should say. He's not a character. He has, uh, he's very, it's easy to get a rise out of Jim. As hard as Jim tries to not let you get a rise out of him, if you press his buttons, he's gonna like yell, he's gonna get mad, he's gonna try to contain himself. And there were a couple of guards that were guarding Jim while he was being like, like washed and shaved and all that stuff. Who just spent the entire scene trying to get a rise out of him by saying like, why is your room so dirty, Jim? Are you, is your room gonna be clean tomorrow, Jim? You gotta keep your room clean, Jim, just ceaselessly and incessantly. And we see eventually when they take him back to his room, it's totally empty. There's a window. There's nothing in the room.
30:01 Speaker 02 Yeah.
30:01 Josh Clark? And in fact, Jim is kept naked in his room. So there's no way for Jim. For Jim's room to be dirty and also for no way for Jim to keep his room clean. These guards you realize were just trying to get a rise out of Jim and they do.
30:15 Speaker 02 Yeah.
30:15 Josh Clark? Over and over again. And it's really hard and sad to watch Jim like, like just get upset. He's trying so hard to just not let these guys get to him because he knows what they're doing. He's fully aware of what they're doing and he just can't help himself. Probably like five different times he re- he reacts and then tries to regain his composure again.
30:35 Speaker 02 Yeah, it's almost as if they're trying to drive him mad.
30:38 Josh Clark? Yeah, and they're also doing, I saw somebody describe it as they're, they're goading him with the kind of like bored desensitization or desensitivity of somebody who does this like every day and know exactly what he's gonna do. And there's no fun in it anymore, but they just kind of do it to amuse themselves as much as they can from it. Which is even worse, you know, because they're just torturing this poor guy mentally.
31:03 Speaker 02 Yeah, and we should point out too that, you know, Weisman showed scenes like this, but it wasn't, um, it wasn't like a 100% indictment on the people who worked there because he did also show some parts where there was some care taken. Um, I mean, what was your, like, I haven't seen the whole thing since college. So what was your net, net on that?
31:27 Josh Clark? Um, so I think the thing that I got from it was that Weisman treats everybody as human and equal in that he's not expressing like empathy necessarily. He's not trying to even get you to, to empathize or sympathize. He's not trying to get you to form an opinion. He's just showing you what he found.
31:50 Speaker 02 Right.
31:50 Josh Clark? And if he is trying to get you to form an opinion, it's so obtuse that it's tough to put your finger on in retrospect. Maybe, maybe you respond exactly the way he wanted you to, but he's not, very rarely does he like hammer you with it. So I feel like he just treats everybody the same. Like there's a guy, there's a patient who talks about all of the children he's raped. And he, he knows that it's bad. He knows that it's like. That like what he's doing is wrong and he can't help himself.
32:22 Josh Clark? But there's like Wiseman makes no effort to make this man seem despicable or evil or anything like that. He might as well be talking about like a car he's thinking about buying.
32:35 Speaker 02 Yeah.
32:35 Josh Clark? For how Wiseman portrays it. And so like if he's treating that guy equal, he's definitely treating like the guards and the clinical staff and everybody equally. But I think more than that, he just turns the camera on and lets them behave as they're going to behave. He lets them present themselves to you rather than him trying to manipulate it so that you see what Wiseman wants you to see.
32:56 Speaker 02 Yeah, I mean, that's the purest form of cinema verite, which, you know, it's interesting how conditioned we are to even hearing an ominous musical score.
33:06 Josh Clark? Exactly.
33:07 Speaker 02 During a scene where a guy might talk about crimes like that. And when all that's stripped away, like it's, it can be like more unsettling, I think than hearing that creepy score.
33:17 Josh Clark? Totally.
33:18 Speaker 02 Uh, it reminds me, and this is certainly not the same thing, but, um, we went to a Cleveland Indians baseball game one time when Emily's family still lived in Ohio and it was this throwback game, uh, where they didn't do any modern things at all. And you don't really think about that. You're like, well, it's a baseball game. What do they do? Like all they had was the organ player. And the, the announcer going, you know, now up to bat, number five, so and so, so and so.
33:46 Josh Clark? Awesome, man.
33:47 Speaker 02 Done. They didn't play a song when they came up that the batter picked out. They didn't have the, the Home Depot hammer and nail and shovel chase each other around the field between innings in a race. They didn't, you know, there's, you don't realize when you go to a pro sports game of all the extra, boy, especially in NBA game.
34:06 Josh Clark? Sure.
34:07 Speaker 02 All the extra stuff that's there until it's gone. And it was really, really weird. I liked it. Our family was like, I'm bored. Uh, and I was like, I think this is kind of cool.
34:20 Josh Clark? Did they have Cracker Jacks at least?
34:22 Speaker 02 Oh yeah. I mean, they sold the stuff and it wasn't throwback prices, of course, but, um, it was, uh, it's weird when you're so conditioned though, kind of like with film, just to. Background noise and just sort of the things that we hear in movies, lighting or a camera move or, you know, Cinemaverite is all about sort of just locking that camera down or handholding it sometimes. When all that artifice is gone, it can have a reverse effect that all the artifice has, like you're using it for.
34:53 Josh Clark? Yeah, and I think in addition to what is added to kind of manipulate you emotionally or unconsciously, there's also a lot that's removed, a lot of reality that's removed, like, like the background noise. If they put background noise in, it's fully artist. It's not the actual background noise that was there when they were filming.
35:10 Speaker 02 Yeah.
35:11 Josh Clark? That's not what Weisman does. This film is replete with disturbing background noise, like televisions that are on that you can't see.
35:20 Speaker 02 Yeah.
35:20 Josh Clark? Other people's conversations that you can't make out what they're saying. The lighting he uses is only the lighting at Bridgewater. He doesn't use any of his own light. It's all whatever is called available light. And yeah, when you, when you just kind of watch it, you're like, this is just like looking in on real life, which makes what you're seeing all the more disturbing because in addition to, to almost being there, you almost feel guilty, especially if you have half a conscience, of witnessing the stuff that you're seeing because you're seeing some of these people like, like Jim, when he's taken back to his cell after those guards got a rise out of him while he was being shaved, he's naked, fully naked, stomping around.
36:04 Speaker 02 Yeah.
36:05 Josh Clark? Basically throwing a tantrum, trying, you can tell he's trying to calm himself down. This is how he's like getting out his, his anger. And Weisman just sits there and films the whole thing.
36:15 Speaker 02 Yeah.
36:15 Josh Clark? And you're forced to watch as the viewer, you're, I saw somebody put it, it's basically like you're the one standing in the doorway, even after the guards have left, you're still standing there watching this man in one of the, probably one of the several worst points of his, his recent life, just gawking at him, basically. And it's, it's, that's the hard part of it for sure.
36:39 Speaker 02 Yeah, or, or, you know, at the other end of the spectrum, there's a scene with a guy named Vladimir.
36:45 Speaker 02 And this guy is very lucid and he's speaking very clearly about,
36:51 Speaker 02 you know, I think my, my, I've deteriorated since I've been here. I think all this noise that you're hearing, all these TVs that are always turned on full blast. It's sort of driving me crazy and I would like to go back to prison where I actually could work out in a gym and I could take classes. And this medication that they're giving me is making me worse. Like I feel that it's harming me. And when he's, you know, when the guards take him out of the room, then there, there's a scene of the, the clinicians like discussing things. And it's sort of like, it sounds like we need to up his medication.
37:27 Josh Clark? Right.
37:27 Speaker 02 Uh, and his tranquilizers because he's paranoid. So when you see something like that, it's sort of the other end of the spectrum from Jim. Equally disturbing, but part of the beauty of this and the rawness of this film is like, these people are all in here together.
37:41 Josh Clark? Yeah.
37:42 Speaker 02 It's never lost on you.
37:43 Josh Clark? It, his is a particularly sad case.
37:45 Speaker 02 Yeah.
37:46 Josh Clark? Because you can tell like, no, he's, he's with it. This guy is, he knows what he's saying. He's not trying to manipulate. He's pleading his case in a logical way. He's trying so hard not to get worked up. How would you not get worked up when you're, when you're pleading your case to be released from a mental institution? From somebody who's just taking you as, as, you know, nuts. So why should you be listened to? There's even, um, one of the, one of the medical staff at that meeting after he leaves the room and they're discussing him. She says, uh, what did she say? She's like, if you take his basic premise is, is true, then everything he says from that is totally logical.
38:27 Josh Clark? But of course his basic premise is total hogwash or whatever she says, something like that. I'm paraphrasing.
38:33 Speaker 02 Just dismiss.
38:33 Josh Clark? So it's like that guy never had a chance.
38:35 Speaker 02 Yeah.
38:35 Josh Clark? He just wasted his breath. He just like, they were, they were never going to listen to him. And, um, it's just.
38:42 Speaker 02 Like red in Shawshank.
38:43 Josh Clark? Yeah. Yeah. Wait, was he not supposed to be there? He was supposed to be there, wasn't he?
38:48 Speaker 02 Well, yeah, but every time he came up for parole, he would plead his case. They would deny it. And then finally in the end, he was like, you know, it doesn't matter what I say in here. You're not going to let me out anyway. That's my Morgan Freeman, by the way.
39:03 Josh Clark? That's a little more like Boss Hogg and, and tranquilizers.
39:07 Speaker 02 What?
39:08 Josh Clark? Yeah, that was Boss Hogg sedated.
39:10 Speaker 02 Oh, man.
39:11 Josh Clark? Let's hear it again.
39:13 Speaker 02 No, I can't.
39:15 Josh Clark? Maybe Jerry can edit that.
39:16 Speaker 02 I can't ever do my Morgan Freeman again. Uh, one of the great voices, but, uh, yeah, he basically says, you know, uh, institutionalized, you're not, you're not gonna let me out no matter what I say. And of course, that's when they let him out because it's a dramatic film and, uh, with a great, wonderful, happy ending, not like to the cut volleys.
39:34 Josh Clark? No. Uh, one other thing that I think we should point out too, for people who haven't seen the movie, like we know Vladimir's name and Jim's name just because it comes up like
39:44 Speaker 02 Oh, right.
39:44 Josh Clark? in discussion.
39:46 Speaker 02 Yeah.
39:46 Josh Clark? Like they're calling him Jim or somebody addresses Vladimir as Vladimir. There's no Chiron at the bottom of the screen says Vladimir.
39:54 Speaker 02 Yeah.
39:54 Josh Clark? Or Jim. There's no, no one explaining how Jim got here or what Vladimir did. There's no, nothing. Nothing is explained. It's just, here's a scene, here's another scene, here's another scene.
40:07 Speaker 02 Yeah.
40:07 Josh Clark? Here's another scene. Nothing necessarily leads into anything else. There's one part that see that, uh, Wiseman says he regrets because it was so, he calls it ham-fisted.
40:17 Speaker 02 Yeah.
40:18 Josh Clark? Where there's, it's really hard to watch.
40:20 Speaker 02 It is.
40:20 Josh Clark? The, the main doctor, the main clinician, uh, who's a recurring character, whose name we have no idea who it is.
40:26 Speaker 02 Right.
40:26 Josh Clark? If you just watched the movie, um, he force feeds a patient who stopped eating and with, through, with a nasogastric tube stuffed down his nose, all the way into his stomach. And this guy is just stoically taking this.
40:40 Speaker 02 Mm hmm.
40:41 Josh Clark? Like he's decided he is not going to eat. They even give him a choice. They're like, you can drink the soup or you're gonna, we're gonna force feed you. And he's like, you're gonna have to force feed. But I don't even think he says anything.
40:50 Speaker 02 Yeah.
40:51 Josh Clark? So there's a, there's a force feeding scene. You watch an emaciated man who's starving himself, force fed.
40:59 Josh Clark? And he intercut that part with scenes from the man's preparation for burial.
41:06 Speaker 02 Right.
41:06 Josh Clark? To kind of show like, you know, he didn't make it. He was successful in ending his own life through starvation. And then also, I think what Wiseman was trying to get across was that he was, you know, he's really being cared for. He's given like a decent burial and like, I think eight, that he has eight pallbearers from the institution and he's like treated very well compared especially to this, this force feeding through a tube down his nose. And Wiseman thought that was a little ham fisted. That is, that is the most cinematic part of the entire movie. Nothing else is anywhere remotely like that. It's all just scene, scene, scene, scene, scene. And like no explanation of who these people are or what they are trying to say.
41:48 Speaker 02 All right, should we take a break?
41:50 Josh Clark? Yeah.
41:51 Speaker 02 All right, we'll take our second break and be back right after this.
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44:15 Josh Clark? Everyone has a story to tell. What's yours? The moment you met your partner, landed that promotion? For people living with a rare disease, life can feel divided into before-the-diagnosis and all-the-after moments that follow. On Voices of VivGart, VivGart is also known as its generic name, Efgartigimod alfa Fcab, you'll hear powerful stories from people facing challenges and embracing a life with a rare disease.
44:39 Speaker 02 Join host Andra Stratten as she guides listeners through honest conversations about life after diagnosis. You'll hear how each guest worked with her care team on their treatment plan, as well as their personal challenges, setbacks, progress, and moments of connection.
44:52 Josh Clark? These stories reveal that life is bigger than a moment, a condition, or a tough day. Listen to Voices of VivGart on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
45:17 Speaker 02 So before we talk about the sort of court cases and whether or not this film could be banned or exhibited, it's interesting. You talk about like, it's just seen, seen, seen, seen. But on the flip side of that, it is like a such a carefully curated edit from all those hundreds of hours of footage down to 83 minutes.
45:40 Josh Clark? Right.
45:40 Speaker 02 And that's one of the things that Weisman sort of talked about was he didn't, apparently he didn't, I don't know if he came around, but he didn't even like the term cinema verite because he felt it sounded too much like you were just shooting stuff and putting it in front of people.
45:55 Josh Clark? Hmm.
45:55 Speaker 02 And he said, I am manipulating people, but it's through the edit.
45:58 Josh Clark? Hmm.
46:00 Speaker 02 So while you may not think that, I mean, I guess he was a master at it because you probably shouldn't feel manipulated, but he's still putting together that that careful edit, you know? It's interesting.
46:11 Josh Clark? He is a master at it and it's pretty remarkable. This was his first film and he was that masterful at it.
46:15 Speaker 02 Yeah.
46:17 Josh Clark? So I said earlier that it was crucial that he had gotten permission to film, not only from, you know, the lieutenant governor and the superintendent of Bridgewater, but also from everyone he shot. He got either written permission from them or verbal permission, audio visual, I guess, on camera, them giving him permission to use them in his film. So he was covered up in permission and don't forget he was a law professor too. And when the movie first came out, when he finished, he showed it to the superintendent of Bridgewater and to the lieutenant governor. They both apparently liked it, according to Weisman, but it wasn't until the movie came
46:59 Josh Clark? out into wider release, at the very beginning, I think New York Film Festival or something like that.
47:04 Speaker 02 Yeah.
47:05 Josh Clark? And people started responding by saying like, this is barbaric, this treatment at Bridgewater, what's wrong with the state of Massachusetts that they suddenly turned on the film? And Weisman had on his hands what would come to become a banned film.
47:22 Speaker 02 Yeah, so one of the central players here is Elliot Richardson, who was that lieutenant governor you referenced at the time, had loftier political aspirations. So when it came time to run for an office higher than that, tried to suppress this film, thinking it would, you know, count against him. And it became sort of like, Olivia calls it a political tool. That's exactly what it became. And Richardson would end up accusing Weisman of double crossing the state. And it all sort of hinged on the idea, not like, oh, you showed these awful things, but it hinged on the idea of permissions and privacy.
48:01 Josh Clark? Yeah.
48:01 Speaker 02 Was sort of the legal framework of it because the argument was, sure, you might have gotten the permission from these men, but they are in no state to give real permission. And so there were a series of court cases over the years that sort of debated this, like for many, many years. In 68, there was a judge, Superior Court judge named Harry Callis, who found that it breached privacy. And this was interesting though, because like, I get that as a legal basis for argument, but this judge said, he kind of attacked the filmmaking process.
48:36 Josh Clark? Right.
48:36 Speaker 02 And said, it's just a hodgepodge of sequences with no narrative. And said, each viewer is left to his own devices as to what's being portrayed and in what context. And in the meantime, Weisman's over there going, adieu. Like, that's what cinema verite is. But I thought that was like, like this judge just said, you should destroy, not should, like ordered it to be destroyed.
48:58 Josh Clark? Yeah, he also called it a nightmare of ghoulish obscenities. And said, the negative has to be burnt.
49:04 Speaker 02 Very judgy judge.
49:05 Josh Clark? Yeah. And of course, Weisman was like, well, I'm not burning my negative. I'm going to fight this and appeal it.
49:09 Speaker 02 Oh, sure.
49:10 Josh Clark? That case, by the way, was the first one in Massachusetts history where a court affirmed that a right to privacy exists.
49:17 Speaker 02 Yeah.
49:17 Josh Clark? It had never been affirmed in a court case and it was established in that case. So it was, it was, it was not cut and dried though, because Weisman has a First Amendment right to freedom of expression. So it became freedom of expression versus. Freedom of privacy or right to privacy, I should say. And it, I think the ACLU got involved and they formed, they submitted an amicus brief that basically said, we think that this film has value, but to a very limited number of people. Specifically lawyers, judges, law students, medical students, psychiatrists.
49:59 Josh Clark? People in those fields should be able to see this and that is about it. And so that kind of became the ruling shortly after that initial, you need to burn the negatives. On appeal, that's what they came up with.
50:12 Speaker 02 Yeah. And so for a number of years after that, for those reasons, it was shown in like film class. It was shown in medical schools. It was shown.
50:22 Josh Clark? At the library?
50:23 Speaker 02 Yeah, it was shown in libraries. That was a great place to see something like this. Or in different institutions would show this and say, this is what not to do. Like you can't do stuff like this.
50:34 Josh Clark? Yeah.
50:35 Speaker 02 There was a belief, and this is sort of through the seventies. And then in the eighties, some attorneys got involved that said there were some suicides at Bridgewater. In the mid to late eighties, there were some class action lawsuits that followed by patients. Where the attorneys said they could draw a direct line, basically between a patient dying by suicide. And the fact that this film wasn't shown, like it should be allowed to be shown for these reasons.
51:04 Josh Clark? Yeah, like had it been shown, there would have been a public outcry for more reforms. And that wouldn't have led, you know, those reforms may have prevented the suicides at Bridgewater. And so Weisman said that he never gave up on the film being released to a wider audience. And he, he saw that that was a good time to bring this up again. And it actually worked out. He, he got, he got a judge to basically say like, okay, this is a, yes, you should be able to show this, but we need to blur the faces of the men out. And Wiseman said, that's impossible. This is film. It's not video.
51:40 Speaker 02 And then also. Work with me here, man.
51:42 Josh Clark? Right. And he said, also, it'll artistically ruin my.
51:45 Speaker 02 Sure.
51:45 Josh Clark? My, um, my film.
51:47 Speaker 02 Yeah.
51:47 Josh Clark? You remember when we did that one gorilla filming in the supermarket, we ended up having to go back and blur.
51:54 Speaker 02 Yeah.
51:54 Josh Clark? Every single thing in the supermarket out, except for us. Kind of screwed it up a little bit. I could see where he's coming from, right? And so he appealed again. And finally, they said, you know what? Not a single inmate at Bridgewater and none of their families has ever filed a formal objection to this film being shown. So how about this? Just show it. It's unbanned officially by the early 90s.
52:17 Speaker 02 Right. That was in 91 with Judge Andrew Gilmeier of the Massachusetts Supreme Judicial Court. And then after that, it was still, because Wiseman is, like I said earlier, very picky about how his films are exhibited. And so it wasn't like, it was just everywhere. Uh, I think PBS aired it in 93 in full. You could always buy the DVD from him, from his website. Or if there was a film festival or a film class, like I said, when I saw it was in college film class from a VHS tape that the professor owned. Probably bought it from Wiseman.
52:54 Speaker 02 And that's sort of how it lived its life. I mean, it's, it's interesting that this like, this still is a relevant topic and a relevant film. And, you know, is being talked about today, like in 2022. I think in 2017, he even tried to, or I think he successfully finally got it on a streaming service. Called Canopy with a K, uh, which is also kind of through the library system, which is awesome.
53:19 Josh Clark? Yeah. You can watch it for free if you sign up for a Canopy account with your library card number.
53:25 Speaker 02 Yeah.
53:25 Josh Clark? You can go watch, I think, all of Wiseman's films, all 48, um, which is pretty great. But there's, there seems to have been, um, some direct effects of the film on Bridgewater, but still from what, from what it sounds like, there's still a long way to go with Bridgewater too.
53:41 Speaker 02 Yeah, I think they made a lot of strides and then they found even as recently as this year. That, um, they were using what they call chemical restraints, basically just doping people up more.
53:54 Josh Clark? Right.
53:54 Speaker 02 Than they said they were doing. So this is ongoing there. And then Wiseman, like you said, made 48 films and. They had names like hospital or high school and it's just sort of that very bare bones cinema verite look at a single topic that's sort of been his bread and butter. I think it's a really cool thing.
54:14 Josh Clark? Yeah, it is really cool. He's just fascinated with institutions. Although he even says he has no idea how they work and I think he's even said he's not quite sure he understands his film himself.
54:24 Speaker 02 Yeah.
54:24 Josh Clark? Which is pretty awesome to say.
54:26 Speaker 02 Yeah, and Zipporah Films is named after his wife, who passed away a couple of years ago at the age of 90 and he's, like you said, still going strong.
54:34 Josh Clark? Yeah, his, what's his latest one? Um, City Hall?
54:37 Speaker 02 Yeah, about Boston City Hall.
54:39 Josh Clark? Yeah, it came out in 2020.
54:43 Speaker 02 Pretty cool.
54:45 Josh Clark? Well, uh, if you want to know more about Titty Cut Follies, you should probably go watch it, but be warned it is really rough, even though it is great in the term of a cinephile would use it. How about that? A cinephile. I always add an extra syllable. So that of course means it's time for listener mail.
55:05 Speaker 02 Uh, I'm going to call this follow up on the effective altruism. One of our favorite things is when we talk about a topic and someone from that topic gets in touch and is a listener.
55:14 Josh Clark? Yeah, for real.
55:15 Speaker 02 Uh, and that's what happened in this case with Grace Adams. Uh, hey guys, we are so excited that you covered effective altruism and you did so wonderfully. Uh, and Grace is with Giving What We Can. Uh, Giving What We Can would love to give your listeners a free book on effective altruism.
55:30 Josh Clark? Very cool.
55:30 Speaker 02 If you, if you include this link in the show notes, uh, which we don't have, but we'll just say it here. Uh, people can opt to have a free book sent to them, uh, including The Precipice by Toby Ord, anywhere in the world. Uh, we love sending out books and things. It's a great way for people to engage more with the ideas. Wishing you all the best from a big personal fan, Grace Adams. And, oh, I should have made this into a bitly. Should I do that real quick?
55:53 Josh Clark? Yeah.
55:55 Speaker 02 All right. So you just talk to people while I do that.
55:56 Josh Clark? Oh, okay. Well, hey, everybody. Uh, actually.
55:59 Speaker 02 We could edit this together, but.
56:01 Josh Clark? Toby Ord, uh, wrote in and said the same thing too, but he also sent us well wishes and said we did a, we did a good job on the effective altruism episode, which I thought was pretty good because I like to think we're fairly fair handed with it. We weren't too over the top of subjective, don't you think?
56:18 Speaker 02 I think so, although we did get one email from someone that's like. Kind of acted like we didn't point out any of the downsides, which I disagree with.
56:26 Josh Clark? I disagree with that, too. But anyway, how's that bitly coming, Chuck?
56:31 Speaker 02 Okay, my friend, I am done. I have the bitly. If you go to bit, B I T dot L Y slash S Y S K give, you can get your free book.
56:42 Josh Clark? Yes, pretty great. Free books on effective altruism and free books by Toby Ord on existential risks, which, I mean, come on. If you want to get in touch with us like Grace from GiveWell did, we would love to hear from you. You can send us an email. Whether you want to give away free books or not, it's okay. You don't have to. Send it off to [email protected] .
57:10 Speaker 03 Stuff You Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
57:25 Josh Clark? Buy smart, drive for less, and trade for more. That's Toyota affordability, and it starts with a great deal on an off-road-ready Tacoma or half-ton Tundra, two of Toyota's longest-lasting trucks, combining power for work, tech for adventures, and style in between. And they're built on a reputation for quality and reliability, which is why Toyota trucks are known for holding their value, which could mean big savings when it's time for your next Toyota. So get a great deal today and a great value tomorrow. Shop toyota.com for more. Toyota, let's go places. Introducing Voices of VivGart. VivGart is also known as its generic name, Fgart Tigamod Alpha F Cam, and this new show features firsthand stories from people living with a rare disease.
58:07 Josh Clark? Hosted by Andrew Stratton, these perspectives highlight that life is more than a moment, a condition, or a tough day. Living with a rare disease can be challenging, but it does not define the Voices of VivGart. In these episodes, they share their stories, from diagnosis to working with their care team on their treatment plan. Listen to Voices of VivGart on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
58:30 Speaker 02 Long hours, work deadlines, family commitments. You give so much to everyone else. Isn't it time to invest in yourself? The University of Arizona Global Campus is built for working adults with flexible online degree programs designed to fit your adult life. Your previous education, training, and eligible experience may even help you earn college credit. At UAGC, you can take one accelerated course at a time, helping you move toward your goals in five- and six-week class formats. Just visit uagc.edu today.
59:00 Speaker 00 This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed human.
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