Eddie Hearn on Selling Matchroom For 5 Billion

In this week’s episode I sat down with the man who is putting British boxing on the map, Eddie Hearn. You’ll probably know him as a confident, boisterous, loud promoter. But when you dig a little deeper, I found something else, something much more revealing, something that made me unsure whether I should feel sorry for him, or be impressed by him. During our discussion he shared so many pieces of valuable information from his journey climbing to the very top of the business ladder… and he isn’t finished yet! Follow me: https://beacons.ai/diaryofaceo Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Steven Bartlett?

  Oh my God, Eddie Hearn, what a guy. There's very few people. No, I'm going to change that. I've never met someone as neurotically obsessed with success and with winning and with accomplishing things and with living a life in constant forward motion as my next guest, Eddie Hearn. And it's remarkable because when you unpack the reasons for that obsession and that dedication to being more and achieving more, there's quite a fragile, vulnerable, insecure story. That's something I've noticed with a lot of my guests. And it often makes me think that

• 0:40Steven Bartlett?

  the most successful amongst us aren't necessarily choosing to be. Something's happened to them that's left them with no choice. Eddie Hearn is one of the most notorious sports promoters in the world. He's the king of boxing in this country. He is known for his No Context and Twitter page, which I'm sure a lot of you have seen. But what I wanted to do when I sat down with Eddie Hearn was to get underneath, to get underneath the external sort of braggadocious, loud promoter side of him and to find out, even in the case of someone like Eddie, who is loud, who is successful, who is ambitious, who is a promoter, are the same things true for him

• 1:22Steven Bartlett?

  that are true for you? The insecurities, the vulnerabilities, the mental health issues? And how much does he really understand himself? My conversation with Eddie was incredibly enlightening, but it also wasn't that surprising. So without further ado, I'm Steven Bartlett, and this is the Diary of a CEO. I hope nobody is listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself.

• 1:54Steven Bartlett?

  You've done a ton of interviews, especially over the last couple of weeks. And there's this really consistent theme that I felt in all of the interviews I watched. I watched you at Cambridge, the High Performance Podcast, loads of them. And, and then before we came, started filming today, I had a chat with Frank and he fully grasped on you. Now, what he said to me, which I, which was also consistent with these interviews is that you are relentless. And he was telling me he's, he's had some, I probably shouldn't say this, but he was telling me, he's, I've started to having this, is it night owl or?

• 2:27Speaker 01

  Night nurse.

• 2:28Steven Bartlett?

  Night nurse. Cause Eddie will text me in the middle of the night and he went, I'll tell you one thing about Eddie. He is relentless. You're what, 40?

• 2:37Speaker 01

  Forty one.

• 2:37Steven Bartlett?

  Forty one years old. What's made you that relentless at 41 years old, to the point where you're, you're pestering your colleagues at 3am in the morning?

• 2:48Speaker 01

  I don't know really. I think when I, when I did the book, it was like, it was quite a good sort of counselling session with myself because I wasn't really great at school. I wasn't particularly a hard worker at school. I loved the pound note, always. And when I wrote the book, it just, I, I started writing about my childhood and what it was like growing up and how I was moulded. And I think a lot of it comes down to the fact that I love to win and I'm a.

• 3:23Steven Bartlett?

  Why did you love to win?

• 3:24Speaker 01

  I don't know, because with my dad, that's what we did. So when we played cricket, when we played football, when we played table tennis, when we sparred with each other. It was like, for me, growing up, you weren't, you know, I would come back from a match, say I played cricket and he, and he would go to me. And actually my mum was the same and he would say to me, how many runs did you get today, son? And I would say, oh no, four. Ah, useless, come on, next time, knock in a 50.

• 3:56Speaker 01

  Right, it was never, oh, well, well done, son. You know, you took part. That's what really matters. They taught me taking part is completely and utterly irrelevant. You win. And ultimately, sport is how I was brought up. I was brought up on the foundations of sport, the lessons of sport. The winning, the losing, you know, the highs, the lows. But always taught that winning was everything. So, and I'm a failed athlete. You know, I think any kid growing up would love to be a sportsman, wouldn't they? I played cricket at a very good level, but I was never good enough at anything. So this is the next best thing. But I think if you're not trying to win in life and win, winning.

• 4:38Speaker 01

  It means something different to everybody. Success means something different to everybody. Some people view success as being able to get their pay packet on a weekend, you know, be able to, you know, spend time with their family and have enough food on the, you know, make enough money to have food on the table and make sure everything's okay at home and, and be happy. You know, and have a happy life with no, no stress or no drama. That's success to a lot of people. But people's interpretation of success is very different. And, you know, for me, I, I, I still don't know why. I, I, I, I do, and I know, I know why I do this, but like you say. I, I love it, I guess. That's what it comes down to, a passion for what you do.

• 5:21Speaker 01

  And I don't know what the passion is. Is it the passion that I love the sport of boxing? Is it the passion that I wanna succeed against, you know, and be bigger than my dad? I think that's a big part of it as well. Or is it just that I love to win? Or is it that I'm a bit sick in the head? Maybe all of them.

• 5:35Steven Bartlett?

  The sick in the head point, I wanna play with that idea a little bit. Um, I, I write, I, I wrote in my book, actually, we have the same publisher. I wrote in my book that the thing that invalidates you when you're younger becomes the thing you seek validation from when you're older. And what I meant by that is like, in my childhood, because we didn't have money. Um, and I was this black kid in a school of fifteen hundred white kids. Everything that we didn't have became the things that I chased when I was older, or the thing that made me feel somewhat invalid sometimes when I was a kid. Like you were saying about your dad saying, oh, you, you lost today. Became the thing that I would seek validation from as, as a, as an adult. And I wondered if that resonated with you at all. I mean, like.

• 6:12Speaker 01

  Well, I had a different background. I mean, my dad was poor, became rich, and I was born. So I've I've said before, it's not like when when you talk about generational wealth, we didn't have generational wealth. Um. I had a dad who was from Dagnum, was from a council estate. His dad was a bus driver. And then I grew up in this sort of nouveau world, where this bloke had made his money and he was, you know, I'll take the Mickey out of him. I suppose he was a bit of a chav. You know, he was like from Dagnum and all of a sudden he's got Ferraris and big cars and we used to have a white limo and a black limo that would drive like the snooker players around and the fighters around. And I was horrible. I was obnoxious. Imagine like

• 6:53Speaker 01

  a fourteen, fifteen year old kid hanging around with Eubank and Naz and then you're in a limo with your mates going up to London or to Romford for a night out. I mean, I look back and just cringe. But mine was different, you know, and and I guess when it comes down to it and, you know, again, from the book and speaking and speaking to people like Frank Lampard, he went to my school. Um. He was in the year above me. At my school, I was Barry Hearn's son. And Frank Lampard was Frank Lampard's son. You know, his dad played for West Ham. He was and it's a different kind of drive. If you can make it flow in the right way, you know, when you're talking about sort of mindset and and

• 7:32Speaker 01

  and hustle where all of a sudden, I think so many people with successful parents end up just doing okay, you know. But how do you go beyond that? How do you outperform everything that he done? And and I will, and and I feel like I've done that in many ways, but I will never be able to outperform the fact that he came from nothing.

• 7:54Steven Bartlett?

  My friends are, my friend is i- in a very similar position. You, if I said my friend's name, you'd know the guy.

• 7:59Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 7:59Steven Bartlett?

  His dad is a multi billionaire. I know you know him because I've seen you with him before, actually in New York, but um. His dad is a multi billionaire and he grew up with, living in the shadow. And his dad was the same. And I had a conversation with him and he said, um, it was all, I was always trying to be better than my dad. He is now a billionaire himself of his own doing. Um. But it's just, it's fascinating that, and his dad, I dad sounds very similar to what your dad sounds, where his dad was tough on him. Tough on him.

• 8:24Speaker 01

  I think they're, I think they're tough on you because they don't want you to be that spoiled kid. I mean, you always wanna um spoil your kids, you know, you wanna give them the great, even now, you know, I've got two daughters. I love to spoil. I work hard so I can give them a great life. But I just want them to understand. Manners, respect and discipline. These are the three most important things and he would make sure that I would understand that even by having me working. You know, give me a clout every now and again, you know, trying to keep because I it must have been frustrating for him because. I was probably all the things that he resented when he was growing up. You know, the rich kid, oh, with with parents who had got big house and cars and.

• 9:07Speaker 01

  And I would have hated me at school, you know, but he would have looked at me and that's why he was so disciplined with me and. You know, I was in his slipstream growing up, so I would sit. You know, we're here now, that's that was my house.

• 9:18Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm.

• 9:19Speaker 01

  Over there, so he would get home from work if he was in the country. You know, he would always go out and give me a game of football or cricket and then he would go in the office all night on the phone. And I would have dinner and I would just sit in the office, you know, I might have a ball just throwing it up in the air. But I would some subconsciously listen to the arguments and, you know, him losing his temper and and just listen, not. Because I wanted to learn, just because I was there.

• 9:41Steven Bartlett?

  And you're you're talking there about the sacrifice of his success, which is. One of them, as you've highlighted, is less time with your family. You are relentless, um, everybody says that. What is the the cost of being a relentless person?

• 9:56Speaker 01

  You have to be incredibly selfish. You have to, you know, for for me, family is the most important thing, but I have to be brutally honest and say, I don't let even. Family get in the way of things that I have to do. You know, and that that can make you an asshole and it can make you sound terrible, but I just don't know any way around it. There is no way you can be the perfect husband or the perfect father. And run a successful business or, you know, be a, you know, a. A relentless operator, it's impossible because I know because I try to balance both. But when you're flying back from America from a show and you land at seven o'clock in the morning and then you go to Manchester for a press conference.

• 10:39Speaker 01

  And then you come home and you just make it to pick him up from school and then you get back and they say, Dad, Dad, let's go over to the park. And you're just absolutely on empty and your phone's going and you're trying to do another deal and. You know, you're pushing the swing and you're going like this, trying to send a message at the same time. It it's impossible, you know, listen, I know because sometimes my my eldest daughter is old enough to say, Dad, please get off the phone. And that's that killed me because that's oh, that's bad to hear, you know, I'm like, okay, okay. But then thirty seconds later, I'm back just having a look down because it's a lifestyle. You know, and it's impossible to be great at anything without making sacrifices, you know, it doesn't matter if you're a fighter. If you're a sports, when you speak to all successful people, you can't be everything.

• 11:24Speaker 01

  It's impossible, you know, and and but what you don't wanna do is you don't wanna disregard. Your obligations, your family obligations, because that are extremely important. But you also need a wife or a partner who's understanding enough to say. This is what I know what he's like, he won't stop. And that's why when Frank talks about three A M. Four A M. That's because a lot of the time I'm sort of making up for the hour or two that I've lost out playing with the kids. So. I'll put them to sleep, they'll go to sleep at nine, half nine, you know. Chill out with the wife for an hour, she'll go to sleep and then I'm up. And now with the growth in America. It means that at four P M, five P M, the West Coast wakes up.

• 12:03Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm.

• 12:04Speaker 01

  So I can't go to bed, I can't disappear when it gets to eleven. A M or on the West Coast or or midday on the West Coast because they wanna speak to me and we wanna do business.

• 12:15Steven Bartlett?

  I am uh much earlier in my career, maybe I don't know fifteen years earlier in my career and um I've struggled with romantic love. For the very same reason that for the last decade, I've like slept in the office multiple weekends, I've been obsessed, um I would. Basically sacrifice everything and then became this moment in my life where I think it was maybe the day that someone tried to buy the company. And I thought about what I'd spend it on and I remember going home and I swear on my mother's life, I went on Rightmove and AutoTrader at the same, I had two tabs open. And I'm like the Lamborghini.

• 12:45Speaker 01

  You can say Tinder.

• 12:45Steven Bartlett?

  No, no, no, no, no, that's that, that always follows the Lamborghini. So I was looking at this Lamborghini in this mansion, the countryside. And then I thought if I buy these things, I'm trading like this purpose I have, this job, this, you know, for for this Lamborghini and this mansion. And it felt really, really empty. And then I thought, but Steve, you know, when you were eighteen and you were broke and you had no money, eighteen year old Steve said, wrote in your diary. This is why it's called the diary of a CEO, that you wanted the sports car, the million before you were twenty five, this was what we did it for. And then it threw my head into this like confusion. It's like, if if if it's not that, if that's gonna make me feel empty. They call it like um gold medal depression when Michael Phelps won all the medals and then got depressed. Um then what's it all for? And and then I thought, and then also, when does it all end?

• 13:30Steven Bartlett?

  Like, when does it end?

• 13:31Speaker 01

  Well, it doesn't end because, and actually, you you're always searching. This is, this is a problem and something you have to be careful of. Because when you are trying to succeed and when you're trying to become great, actually, the great people, they never feel content with achievement. And I'm very much like that. Frank Lampard, again, going back to him, he said that when he won the Champions League, he's always dreamed of winning the Champions League, and he stood there with a trophy.

• 13:58Speaker 01

  And he felt nothing, I mean, he felt happy, but definitely not content, definitely not, I've cracked it. That might go back to the sickness, you know, that we talked about earlier. And when we talk about sickness, I mean, not, probably not medically sick, but sick in the head a little bit, to a point where I get it all the time. You know, we say that, you know, we wanted to do, you know, when when AJ turned pro, we wanted him to be the world heavyweight champion. You know, he won that. Great. We was in the ring after jumping up and down. As soon as we got out of the ring, the mo-, yeah, and then it's like, okay, we'll want to do something, you know, we got the Klitschko fight. Okay, you go through it 90,000 at Wembley, you stand there, everyone that was at the event tells you it's the greatest sporting occasion they've ever been to.

• 14:42Steven Bartlett?

  How do you feel?

• 14:43Speaker 01

  Uh. At the time, amazing. In the ring, amazing, you know, and then, not even the day after. It's, I I never, I never go out really, and I never drink really after a show. Because that's probably, you know, depressed is the wrong word, but you, I go back, you know, I finish the media obligations, two, three o'clock in the morning, go back to the hotel, and that is when I'll sit there, get into bed, and then obviously you can't sleep because the buzz and the adrenaline. And that's when you just feel a little bit low and empty, is that, okay, it's over. Same with what you talk about with Phelps, it's the highs versus the lows. You can't just experience the highs and then be happy with the lows. So you want more and more and more and more.

• 15:29Speaker 01

  And I. I'm my, I'm my own biggest critic and I'm also very pessimistic, which is strange to a lot of people. But I kind of use it to play tricks on myself to keep myself driven. So when I do something or when I plan something, I always say to myself, there's going to be problems. It's, I think it's going to go wrong. I doubt this will happen. You know, I don't know why I do it, but it just helps me to battle away, to overcome everything, to get to the place. And then when I achieve something which others might think is great, I say to myself, that's nothing. You've got a long way to go because I'm scared of sitting back, you know, with the, the cigar on the beach and going, I've cracked it, you can't touch me, you know, and we got to a position with UK boxing where, you know, we are virtually untouchable.

• 16:13Speaker 01

  But I just don't want to be that guy who takes the foot off the gas. I want to bang every single nail in the coffin. You know, and then move on to another market and another market and another market. But you do get, the, the worry with that mindset is, you, you may look back when you're eighty or ninety and go, wow, you know, look at everything you've done. You never really enjoyed it, did you? I mean, I love what I do, but you probably should savour it a little bit more than you do. But again, it goes back to that mindset of being so driven. You want the next, a drug. Success is a drug, but you've got to be careful that it doesn't turn you into an asshole at the same time. Because how many successful people do you know? Absolute assholes, assholes, horrible, rude, no manners, obnoxious.

• 16:55Steven Bartlett?

  What's it done? Do you ever find moments where you think, fuck, I was just an asshole then?

• 16:59Speaker 01

  I think that it's just time for people, you know, you end up being, it's not that you can turn into that if, if you're not one, but when you become busy, it's a bit like, you know, when people say that, oh, he's changed. Of course he's changed. His life's changed. You know, his responsibility's changed, his business has changed. You can't expect him to say the same people. And, you know, when you have a, a group of friends, when you all come out of school and sort of you're going from there and you're talking every day and the ones that sort of grow.

• 17:31Speaker 01

  The friendships are still as strong, but you just don't talk to each other every week, every day. Because you've got your own life, you've got your own vision, you've got your own plans.

• 17:40Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm.

• 17:40Speaker 01

  But you still go for lunch and you get on better than ever and you meet, but and it's the ones that say, oh, he's not, oh, he's don't talk to us anymore. I ain't got time, mate. But this just goes back to sacrifices. You know, if I fall out with friends because of what I'm trying to achieve in my own personal life and my business.

• 18:00Speaker 01

  So be it. I know, again, that that sounds, you know, and it's not about being a bad friend or a bad person, but you you can't. You can't worry about other people as long as you're a good person, as long as you do the right thing. The fact that you don't have time at the moment. But that's when you people might perceive you to be an asshole, you know.

• 18:17Steven Bartlett?

  You talked a little bit about that, about being eighty years old and looking back on your life. I'm gonna just play a little, a little game with you. So we've got to imagine. Imagine that, what day of the week was, I think it's Tuesday today, Tuesday.

• 18:29Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 18:29Steven Bartlett?

  So Friday, you find out that Friday's your last day on earth. My question is, and really put yourself there, right? So Friday's your last day on earth. All the fights coming up, AJ, Fury, it's all all falls away. What do you immediately regret?

• 18:44Speaker 01

  That's actually something that I've thought about quite a lot. And the reason was is um about four months ago, my granddad passed away. He was ninety three. Great life, you know. And when I went to see him in his last couple of days, you know, and he obviously didn't look great. And I looked at him, I thought, wow, life's crazy, isn't it? I said, everything that you've done in your life. And now you're laying here about to leave.

• 19:11Speaker 01

  So when you get experiences like that, just you have to be reminded sometimes that this is a game. Life is a game. We're only on borrowed time. Right? And you can never take yourself too seriously. I think that's one thing I do well is I love to have a laugh and I don't take myself too seriously. Um. In answer to your question.

• 19:31Speaker 01

  Since that moment, I've been thinking a lot about if I, you know, if I went now, do you look back and say, I couldn't have done any more. I had a great time.

• 19:40Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm.

• 19:41Speaker 01

  And I think the answer is yes. I mean, we could all, we can all do better. But my dad is an inspiration in that respect because he's the kind of person that couldn't have squeezed one more drop out of his life, right? So I'm quite envious of that. He's seventy three and who knows how long he's gonna last. But I do feel like it's very important that when you get to whatever stage, when God says that's enough for you, that you are able to look back and say, I couldn't have done any more. And that scares me a little bit because.

• 20:11Steven Bartlett?

  I wanna know exactly what, when you think about more, you're saying I could have done more. You find out that this Friday is your last day. What are the things where you think, do you know what? Because I think that the hot, the, that moment, like the, the deathbed moment puts everything in perspective.

• 20:29Speaker 01

  It does, but I think in that moment, your emotions are very different to when you're well and fit and on the hustle and just, you know, so you don't get a chance to reflect on that kind of moment until you're there.

• 20:41Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 20:41Speaker 01

  And the obvious reflection at that point is, I wish I would have spent more time with my family.

• 20:45Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm.

• 20:46Speaker 01

  You know, I wish I would have been less focused probably on work. But I'm not a believer in, you know, the thoughts then are not the thoughts now. And you have to act on the moment. You can't live your life saying, well, blimey, when I'm on my deathbed, you might look back and because I don't, I don't think you can plan like that. You have to do what's in your heart. You have to do what feels right. And what feels right for me right now is this.

• 21:10Steven Bartlett?

  Sure.

• 21:11Speaker 01

  What might feel right then is, ah, do you know what? Should have probably missed a few trips really and just done the school run a little bit more and, and, and I know that. You know, you, you have to, you really have to understand where you are in life. This is great for your mental health as well and your sanity. You've got to be honest with yourself and, and you've got to understand the situation. I know exactly where I'm at, what I'm thinking, what I'm doing, the sacrifices I'm making, what I could do better at, what I, you know, but I'm okay with it. You know, you you can't get the perfect balance, but as long as you understand what is going on and you're not deluded, you're not stubborn, ah, don't worry about it, I'm not that, yeah, I know, I know I need to do more at home.

• 21:54Speaker 01

  I know I need to do more school runs. I know I need to be less short with the wife sometimes.

• 21:59Steven Bartlett?

  But can you, there's a couple of points here that I think are super interesting. So um that that deathbed moment, what I think it's doing, and I've never been there, you've not been there, but what I think it's doing is it's telling you what actually mattered. Because to some degree, I think that it's it's like with that hindsight, you can say, fuck, that person criticizing my hair or my cut or this, none of that fucking ever mattered. All of that was trivial. The things that mattered were, as you say, like my niece or my, you know, so I think that's what that moment is doing.

• 22:27Speaker 01

  But that comes over time. How old are you now?

• 22:28Steven Bartlett?

  Twenty seven.

• 22:29Speaker 01

  Okay, you're a baby, right? When I was twenty seven, what what people thought of me really mattered. You know, I mean, listen, I've been working out for thirty five years just to stay fat. You know, like the barnets going a little bit, I could not give a monkeys now. At your age, oh, mate, I was, you know, I might have been Jack the lad, I might have been turning up, but but deep down, you know, it'd only take one of the boys to say, you know, tell you what, Ed, you're putting on a bit of timber there, or look, look, your barnet's creeping back. What? What do you mean? What do you mean? Now, I go, yeah, mate, I know, this is a sign of the times, isn't it? So being comfortable with yourself is the best feeling in life, you know, is the best feeling in life.

• 23:10Speaker 01

  And I think when I was growing up at school, I wasn't subconsciously. I think I had a massive chip on my shoulder. And that's why I was a bit of a bit of a knob, to be to be quite honest. But when you get comfortable with yourself, it's a beautiful thing in life, it really is. You know, when you wake up in the morning and you you've always got to try for me and look good and feel good and be the best version of yourself you can be. But you do get to a stage, and that's actually when you become really powerful and effective. You know, it's the same kind of thing. You know, when you're young and you're courting or you're looking for a young lady to show you some interest. You know, when you try really hard and you're sort of on edge and you're a bit, oh, don't, don't really like my hair or, oh, God. You know, you know, the ones that walk into the bar and just go, oh, mate, you know, I, I know I'm not the best, but I, you know,

• 23:55Speaker 01

  they're the ones that everybody gravitates to. Anyone with a smile on their face is always creates so much more energy and flow than the people that, that don't. And, and that's about being comfortable in yourself. So I think that it's very difficult with everything you've achieved at your age to just know where you're going or what you're doing. I'm done. Do you know what I mean? I'm, I'm married. I've got two kids. I've got business. I'm struggling to balance everything, you know, but I'm here. You know, I'm not gonna roll back the, the years and do this and do that. And I know exactly what I'm doing. I know exactly where I'm at. I know exactly what I'm focusing on. And that life starts to become a lot easier then. At, at your age, you know, I went to work, I left college after my A levels.

• 24:37Speaker 01

  I went to work for five years in sports management companies and event management companies. I was a sports agent on a PGA tour in America. I had no idea where I was going. I mean, I'm, I just wanted to be successful. I wanted to earn money, you know, but the mindset of, of, or the changing mindset over the years is unbelievable. I always say to people, you know, what matters to you now, you will look back on when you get to my age and go, I can't believe I even used to worry about stuff like that. And, and that, that's important because I, I feel like people that are very successful, you know, you did it at a very young age, very impressive because I think it takes time.

• 25:18Speaker 01

  Now, when I did the Cambridge talk the other day, you know, you're sitting down with all these young, I mean, I'm, I'm, I'm street smart and I can sell. Right? These people are like, yeah, but I'm jealous of boffins. I used to take the Mickey out of boffins. I'm jealous of boffins now. I find intellectual people fascinating. I love talking to them and just trying to learn and absorb. And I'm sitting in this room of people and they're listening to me and I'm thinking. You know firstly, you must be listening to me thinking, this bloke, who is he? What is he? A car, used car dealer? Something like that. And then, but I'm, I'm talking around, I'm saying to you, what would you wanna do? But, uh, you know, what, what is success to you? They've not got a clue.

• 25:59Speaker 01

  And it's not because they're at Oxford and they're, they're deluded. It's because that's just, it's very difficult at that age to understand. I don't believe anyone at forty looks back at what they were thinking at twenty and said, yeah, I had this plan, I'm there now. And this is what I always wanted to do. So it takes time to develop a passion for something. And that, that is, that's a key word, passion, because when we talk about being relentless and we talk about this work ethic, you can only have it if you love what you do and if you have a passion for what you do. I don't think you can trick yourself. You can, but you can't be as good, you know?

• 26:33Steven Bartlett?

  You, you, you know, you said earlier that you, you feel like you're self-aware of like the, the lack of balance in your life. Because you've got this real relentless streak, you've got this family and you're self-aware of it. Do you think, as much as you're aware of it, do you think deep inside you, you really have a choice?

• 26:54Steven Bartlett?

  Or do you think you're being somewhat dragged by your own ambition? Because this is what I find fascinating about people, successful people, is it tends to be the case that, like me, I'm aware I need to see my niece more.

• 27:06Steven Bartlett?

  But I just sometimes don't feel like I ha- I'm fully in control.

• 27:10Speaker 01

  Well, I, I do it because it's what I want to do ultimately. I mean, I do have an obligation. You know, I do have responsibilities. I'm talking about in the workplace. You know, we've got a fantastic team here, but ultimately, when we're announcing a show, when we're doing a press conference, when we do, they want me.

• 27:27Steven Bartlett?

  Sure.

• 27:27Speaker 01

  They want their flesh. So they roll me out and I'm just like, I'm like a travelling salesman. Right, Eddie, we're announcing this show today. Off you go. Right, here we go. Back in the car. Here we go. You know, so. But I do it because I enjoy it, because I love it, because I have an obligation to do it for the business that my father created. And of my responsibility now is to take that to the next level. You know, he built this from the foundations, from nothing. I'm not gonna let it just fizzle out as he goes into his eighties. I wanna take it to the next level. But the difference is, is I don't have to do this. You know, I'm not looking at this as my way out. Um, you know, I just, if I just make some money, I can,

• 28:11Speaker 01

  you know, I can buy the Lamborghini or I could have done that at twenty one.

• 28:14Steven Bartlett?

  But imagine the Eddie that that doesn't do this. Imagine what how he feels.

• 28:17Speaker 01

  But the same thing, that was that was me at school. You know, that was the kid telling the teachers, I don't have to do that, you know, I'm well, I'm that, ugh. Can't that runs shivers down me.

• 28:26Steven Bartlett?

  Give me some advice on, um, cause you've got, you're married.

• 28:29Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 28:29Steven Bartlett?

  And I'm, I genuinely, genuinely, no, it sounds crazy, but I'm like, you've managed to crack, it seems like, cause you're married, um, crack the balance of being relentless on one end, but then managing to find a person or to at least keep them happy to some degree. Yeah, I'm not supposed to, but I genuinely, I started to think of the, the last couple of years, I'm like, how am I going to find someone that understands that I want to send text messages at four AM in the morning? And that I sometimes don't want to talk to them and that when I'm sat next to them, I'll be quiet for seven hours because I've just got an email that I'm thinking about. And so I'm like, is it, you have to find the right person? Is it something you say to them?

• 29:06Speaker 01

  I think they need to know you. They need to know what drives you. I mean, if you had a conversation with my wife

• 29:14Speaker 01

  and you said, what, what is he like? You know, she'd just go, well, he's just in his own world, isn't he? I mean, the amount of times, you know, that moment where you get home and they go, right, I need to talk to you and you go into the kitchen and they go, right now, uh, Isabella, you know, I spoke to her teacher today and, um, what, I'm gone, right? So I'm good, I'm going and I'm thinking that contract's got to have been at nine PM, you know, blah, blah, blah. And she goes to me, what did I say? And I go, this is cool. What? And she just, she, but it's not like, and, and she'll go, listen, we have blazing rows. You know, you're, you know, you're so selfish, you, all you care about is work, you know, but you, again, it just gets to a point where you just have to understand. Life, you just, nothing's perfect, you know, you've got two people that love each other.

• 30:00Speaker 01

  I've known her since, you know, my twenties. I've, I've, I've changed, we've both changed a lot over the years, but we've changed together and we've grown together. And this is what I do, you know, and I would have had that conversation with her at some point many years ago. To the point saying, look, nothing's gonna get in my way, I, I, I don't mean to sound horrible and I love you and you know, I want to spend the rest of my life with you, but you have to understand me. You have to understand that this is extremely important to me. Not, don't say this is the most important thing to me, cause that'll get you bang in trouble, but you know, this is extremely important to me. And I think because she's been around my family, because she knows how important it is to us.

• 30:43Speaker 01

  She kinda just gets it, you know, and there'll be times where she'll say, did I hear you on the phone last night at five o'clock in the morning? I say, yeah, you know, we was doing the Canelo deal or, you know, AJ deal or, and she would just look at me and go. But over time, you know, I think the most, the most difficult thing is the early stages of dating. Because it's, it's very difficult for a woman, they, they want your attention. You know, people, people sometimes think that women want, uh, you know, money and, you know, the nice house. And of course, everybody does, but they don't really, they want your attention and they want your company and they want your time. And there are three things that are very difficult to do when you live that kind of lifestyle.

• 31:25Speaker 01

  So you do have to, you know, we'll do, I'll, I'll race back from somewhere and I'll say, right. You know, tonight, let's go out for dinner and I'll be naked, I don't, you know, hopefully she don't listen to this. I really don't wanna go for dinner tonight, but you have to do it. And that's what my dad has kind of always taught me, he's saying, you've got to do, you've got to, my big, we're big family people. My mum, he's from, from the East End, she's old school. As far as they're concerned, the man goes out and puts the bread on the table and the wife looks after the man. Old, old, old world. That don't exist anymore.

• 32:02Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 32:02Speaker 01

  But every morning or every night, my mum will iron my dad a shirt and she will put it on his, on the door for him in the morning.

• 32:10Steven Bartlett?

  If you're, if your wife, right, say, I say, we put her in this room, we sat her down with God and we said, listen, you can decide what happens next with Eddie and his career, right? So you can, we can bring it to an end and he'll spend more time with you. What do you reckon she would do? If she could make the decision on you, your relentlessness and your career, how do you honestly think she would make that decision?

• 32:30Speaker 01

  I think she, because she knows how important it is to me, I think she would say, no, he, he, he, he needs to do it. He has to do it. But I think the, I think the hope is that there is an end place or an end goal.

• 32:45Steven Bartlett?

  How does that make you feel?

• 32:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, but for me, I don't, whether in 20 years' time, we, we play this back. I don't think I want to be 70, you know, maybe even 60, 70, 80, doing this, dealing with problems. And listen, maybe I won't even make it that long. But for me, I definitely have the mindset of not, I want to get in and get out. But I, I do want to get that moment where I do sit on the beach with a cigar. Don't even smoke cigars, but you know, and a whiskey, don't even like whiskey, but you know, I can imagine the picture at least and go, do you know what? We've done it. We've done well. But walking away is the thing that at the moment would kill me, you know, to be able.

• 33:32Speaker 01

  Imagine when you wrap up shop and you know, this might be, I mean, for us, we've gone from being a family business, you know, to having four employees to now all of a sudden having hundreds of employees in, in multiple offices around the world. We're being approached by, for, for investment, for takeover, for IPOs. And now we're sort of at that stage of growth where, I don't know, I just see, I see, I see a faster exit strategy than my dad. At least that's what I'm selling to her, you know, just give me a few more years, just give me a few more years. But I do want to go and enjoy because I can't say I'm not enjoying myself because I love what I do, but I do want that moment to just, you know.

• 34:10Speaker 01

  But it's the walking away, you know, how do you just one day turn around and, yeah, you might sell the business or, you know, you might float and you take a more of a backseat role. That's difficult because we make our own decisions. We're a hands on business. That's what we love. We've turned down investment and opportunities for years because we don't wanna, I don't wanna board the directors. We, we make the decisions and we do what we wanna do because we love what we do. But when you see such growth and you see such interest and you see the opportunity for, you know, a, a much vaster wealth, being quite honest, do you want it? And if you want it, what's the exit strategy? Because at the moment, the exit strategy for our family is from the day you start working, from the day you die,

• 34:53Speaker 01

  you work your nuts off every single day. I mean, it's not particularly advanced, is it?

• 34:57Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm.

• 34:57Speaker 01

  That, that strategy, but that's just what we've always done.

• 35:00Steven Bartlett?

  Mental health, big topic, uh, you know, especially over the last ten years. I think if you go back, well, ten years ago, and you said the word mental health, people think people are crazy, right? They think like, you know, run away from that person. But now it's become like the opposite. It's like, oh, someone's got, you know, it's become something of where you'd give someone affection and you'd take care of them. Because the stigma's somewhat changed. We know the stats around male mental health. Have you ever suffered from any sort of mental health, um, predicaments?

• 35:28Speaker 01

  I don't think so, no. I mean, I think, again, depression's one of those things, a bit like yoga and breathing and stuff we were talking about earlier. If you would have said to me ten years ago, listen, maybe even five or six years ago, so and so's suffering from depression. If, if your perception of that person is, well, he's young, he's good looking, he's healthy, he's rich, he's successful. How can he be struggling from depression? What a load of rubbish. And actually, it takes the older generation even longer. I mean, I think my dad's only just accepted now that it exists with people. Because his mentality is, what?

• 36:09Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm.

• 36:10Speaker 01

  Dust yourself down. What's the matter with you?

• 36:11Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm.

• 36:12Speaker 01

  And it's that's, you know, that, that's wrong because it is real, you know, and it does exist. Um, I don't, you know, have I had days where I've been feeling incredibly down? Yeah. But surely that's normal. You know, I don't, I don't see myself suffering from that. And I think. I think mental health problems and depression, I think it comes from overthinking. You know, my um my brother in law is hilarious. He just, I've never known anyone who just overthinks and worries about stuff. You know, you're gonna be having a conversation, you'll go, I've just been thinking about that, you know, and and if that happens, I was thinking, you know, next year, you could be there and then from there, it's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, what are you doing?

• 36:53Speaker 01

  Just when you're struggling mentally, focus on the short term. Focus on day by day. I think sometimes people look at, and this is the same for business. When you have a project or a long term plan, there are so many short term obstacles and goals to overcome to get there. That's why how many times you spoke to someone, I've got this idea, you know, I'm gonna be doing this and that and blah, blah. And then a month later, you've not even heard about it. Oh, well, what happened was we we launched and then, you know, the council came in or the regulation board came in and and this other company tried to do this and and and it just, it's like, no, because you didn't focus on the short term goals. All you were worried about was the house and the Lamborghini and you weren't prepared to to tick the boxes to get there.

• 37:36Speaker 01

  So sometimes when I'm a little bit off or, you know, it might be travelling a lot and the equilibrium's gone and and it's like, okay. So I'm just gonna write down what I'm gonna do today. And it can be really menial stuff, could be walk the dog. You know, could be finalize a contract, could be go to the gym, could be go and get some food, you know, in from.

• 37:57Steven Bartlett?

  Just to focus yourself a little bit.

• 37:58Speaker 01

  Just to say, and and and I would tick everyone off.

• 38:00Steven Bartlett?

  Really?

• 38:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I would say at the end of the day, I would look at it and I would go, done. And that's the momentum back. That that's where you get the feeling of accomplishment, even even on tiny things, say, okay, I'm moving in the right direction. For me, that that is a big help for me is short term focus. Because once you start worrying about what's gonna happen next week or next month or next year.

• 38:21Steven Bartlett?

  You can't control.

• 38:22Speaker 01

  No, and you're gonna start driving yourself crazy. You've just got to say, okay, this is what I need to do today. Tomorrow, I need to do the same thing. And then before you know it, you'll start making positive changes. You'll start achieving. Because you know what what you've set, the target you've set yourself, you are achieving.

• 38:38Steven Bartlett?

  You're a bit of a philosopher, I don't know if you realise, because um there's a great famous philosopher that says uh depression is too much of the past and anxiety is too much, thinking too much about the future. And he says the cure is more now, and that's pretty much what you've described.

• 38:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, that is true, because you can't worry about things that that may or may not happen. And you can't change things that have already happened.

• 38:56Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm.

• 38:56Speaker 01

  What you can do is change what is happening today. And it's simple to do that. Again, in in the book, I ran a marathon, one marathon, right? Because my dad ran loads and he took the mick out. I mean, I had to do it. And it's the same kind of thing. You start the marathon, you think twenty six miles. If you start thinking about running twenty six miles. I mean, I it it did give me anxiety attacks to start with. I was thinking, that's just ridiculous. I've never done more than ten K. And then you train and you train and you train and you build. And then every mile marker is an obstacle.

• 39:28Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm.

• 39:28Speaker 01

  You start off, you think twenty six miles, blimey, and you go one, two, three, four, five, and you're you're okay. And then and then you're twelve, thirteen, you think I've done half.

• 39:36Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm.

• 39:36Speaker 01

  And you get to eighteen, nineteen, you think I can't do it anymore. And you think, just get to twenty, get to twenty, twenty one. And when you see that twenty mile marker. You know, and then you get to twenty and you go, do you know what? I've still got six miles, I can't do it. And you go twenty one, twenty two, twenty three. And then when it's all over. You can look back, but if you start worrying about the future, you're gonna gas out. You're not gonna make it.

• 39:57Steven Bartlett?

  Do you feel that anxiety sometimes in those big moments where you've got, you know, something's coming up and you just can't stop thinking about it? Um. In my business, it was actually the first, you know, I heard this term mental health. And I think at the start, I thought, no, it's not real.

• 40:09Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 40:10Steven Bartlett?

  And then a couple of years in, I saw a lot of people, I start hearing, you know, friends of mine and stuff going through really bad things. I'm like. I think it's real. And then I got to this point where I was almost scared to admit that it would be real. Because I I almost felt like if I admitted it was real, then I'm like welcoming the possibility into myself of like labelling myself something. And then there was one moment where I had this really big decision to make in New York, and I'm laying in the hot tub in Manchester. And I just got really anxious and I I was anxious for about four days up until the point of the decision. And then I thought, that's probably the closest I've come to some kind of mental health predicament. Is that real anxious feeling that I couldn't shake?

• 40:46Speaker 01

  I think social media is horrendous as well, like. I I've made the decision in the last couple of years, year specifically, to start ignoring and blocking out a lot of um. You're a celebrity now. Yeah, well, but when I was coming through, when I was overturning the system, the support was unreal and I was really feeding off that. I mean, anyone that says, you know, they're not affected by criticism or they they're not worried about. I mean, that's a load of rubbish. Course you don't like people criticizing you. And by the way, you love people patting you on the back and championing you, of course, it's it's natural. What things get to you, though?

• 41:25Speaker 01

  Stuff that people, like the personal stuff, couldn't give couldn't give a monkey's about. It's more about the it it's it's more about people, when you're putting the work in something and you're so passionate about something and you're actually working for the good of might be the sport or whatever, it's the people that just, you know, presume see you completely differently. So that's the frustration. But over the last couple of years, I just started thinking to myself, what are you? I was having a conversation with my old man. My old man's on Twitter, right? And he phoned me up and he go, I was having an argument with this geezer on Twitter, right? And he was going on about the snooker and the format. And I said to him, I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. I said, are you serious? I said, who is, why who is this boat?

• 42:08Speaker 01

  I said, do you imagine someone stopping you on the street and having having a pop at you about the snooker format? But it also, it's it's the platform that made us what we are. It it got us to the top, you know, the interaction with the fans and the understanding of their mindset. So we can't just, you know, but it's become a toxic place. It really has, you know, and and I worry for I worry for my kids. You know, sometimes one of them be on TikTok and she'll put a dance out and someone will come back and say, you know, I don't know. Uh, you're ugly. You look really, you're stu-, you know, and it's like, we never had that in our day. And we never even had a phone. And if someone didn't like you, they might say something in the playground, but that's about it. So we live in a world of criticism and I think it's a negativity. Hmm.

• 42:51Speaker 01

  But that's what I said to my old man. I said, do you imagine like these people, they're all doing it all day. I'll put a post out, you, same ones all the time. And I don't think, you know, and even um to the point where someone posted my phone number on Twitter. Right? And I've had my phone number for. Twenty five years, same one, right? And someone posted it and went, give it, this is Eddie Hearn's number. Give him a call and, you know, tell him what you think about the pay per view price or whatever it is. And my phone was getting, it was like every, literally all day, it was just private number, private number. And I thought, you know what? You've got to change your number. And I thought, I can't be bothered. So I started answering a few, right?

• 43:34Speaker 01

  And to this day, this was a few years ago, it's that people still do it. And there's this one guy. You've got the same number? Yeah. Fucking. I can't be bothered to change it, right? So this guy, private number, private number, private number. And it's all day, right? So I pick it up and I go, hello, mate. And he goes, oh, bloody hell, Eddie. And I go, yeah, how you doing, mate? And he goes, uh, um, when you're gonna stop ripping us off on the pay per view or something like that, right? And I go, and I went to him, mate, let's have a serious conversation. What are you doing?

• 44:15Speaker 01

  And he goes, what do you mean? What am I, I said, have you got a job? And he's like, uh, yeah, I said, you haven't, have you? And he's like, well, not, not at the moment, I said, what are you doing? I said, how many times have you phoned me today? Oh, I mean, the answer was like forty, right? I said, you can't focus, I said, all the energy you're putting into phoning me. Cause you think it's banter or it's some kind of accomplishment if I pick up the phone. I said, put it into something worthwhile. I said, cause you're really wasting your life. And he just went quiet and he's like, uh, oh, come on, Eddie, what about a few quid off the pay per view? And I'm like, no, no, mate, I'm serious, but I wanna help you out.

• 45:01Speaker 01

  You've got to, you've got to change, you know? And then he just hung up and I thought, shit, I hope he's all right. He was in a midlife crisis. But it's true, isn't it? What are you doing? What are you doing? I mean, all right, once might be quite funny, you know, I'll pick it up and you give me a bit. But like all day, every day, you know? Because I'd hate to be one of those people that just wakes up every morning with no fire in the belly, with no passion, with nothing. And there are, by the way, that's ninety five percent of the population. Many people, that's why it's so important to me here to create an environment at Matrim for the, for the team. Where you enjoy being there, you know, we got, we get food together, we got a gym, we got a pool, we got, we're all travelling away to events, we'll have a night out, we'll do that because

• 45:43Speaker 01

  you can't be in a job or a life where you're just flat, how am I gonna get the best out of you if you don't love what you do? And it's very difficult to have that same passion when it's not your business, you know, so motivation's important, but.

• 45:57Steven Bartlett?

  Frank, you know Frank said to me, he said, he said, you know, Eddie's a, Eddie's a businessman, that's, that's where you came from, your dad's a businessman too. And with this new age of social media and all the interviews you do on YouTube, and you are relentless with the interviews as well, by the way. And I was, when I saw you in New York, uh, on that rooftop with like the nice garden and stuff, yeah. You were back to back to back doing those interviews with all these bloggers for three hours. That's helped grow the business. It's why most people know Matchroom, especially of this generation. But it's made you a celebrity. And Frank said to me, he said, I don't think he's enjoying the celebrity thing, you know? And I think a lot of people would be really, really surprised to hear that because, you know, people would, they think that you'd love it. They think you'd love the attention. I mean, promoters are in the business of attention, right?

• 46:42Steven Bartlett?

  But from a personal perspective, apparently you don't like it. You don't like the celebrity.

• 46:45Speaker 01

  I didn't set out to be a celebrity, you know, I set out to be a businessman. I set out to um, continue the success that, that, that my dad built. But I do recognise that if I am well-known, if I am a showman, if I am a celebrity, it will help me push my events, it will help me push the profile of fighters. You know, you get to a stage now where the industry haters might say, oh, well, it's ridiculous, he's doing all these interviews, you know, he's more popular than most of his fighters, you know, more popular is a wrong word, well-known than, than some of his fighters. But that's me, you know, and I look at the success of the UFC, I look at the growth of, of that business and Dana White.

• 47:29Speaker 01

  And every major fight sport um, product has that lead guy. In WWE, it's Vince McMahon, you know, in MMA, it's Dana White, and in boxing, I guess it's me or, you know, I want it to be me. So there's a method to the madness. And but, you know, the book, the book was something that I wanted to do because I just thought it was funny that I would ever write a book, right?

• 47:55Steven Bartlett?

  I don't think it's funny.

• 47:56Speaker 01

  No, but if you knew me at school and you knew, I just, it was more like. Hodder put it to me during, before lockdown, and when lockdown come, I panicked. And I was like, oh, and next, you know, talk about being at home with your kids. Now I am at home with my kids and I've got no events. And, oh, so I was just like, for those first two weeks, I was just, right, we launched a fitness show with Sky that people could do at home, fight and fit. You know, I said to the guys, yeah, give me that book deal. I'll write it now. Let's do the book now. And I wrote it in lockdown, you know, and, and. And I was just zooms, more zooms, more interviews, because I was, I was just, I was just scared of. Not having that drive every single day of, you know, going out there and, and, and I didn't enjoy.

• 48:37Steven Bartlett?

  It's like an illness, you know.

• 48:39Speaker 01

  Well, it is an illness. It is an illness. Let's be honest. We're all sick, aren't we? I mean, like, you can't do. You can't wake up in the night, every night, and start writing emails, doing contracts, texting people, right? And then wake up at seven and do the school run and then drive to work and do it all over again every single day, unless you're a little bit ill in the head.

• 48:59Steven Bartlett?

  You, you can't actually be still. Like, so when you talked earlier about that cigar moment in the future, sitting on that beach, I didn't believe you for a second.

• 49:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, you're probably right, but I just, I'd like to think that, at least what I'm telling the missus, that one day we'll be, we'll chill out, you know what I mean?

• 49:14Steven Bartlett?

  Could you imagine laying on a beach with a cigar like this? No emails, no nothing, just no fights coming up, nothing, just.

• 49:20Speaker 01

  Meditating. No, but I think it all depends where you get to. You know, it's like when you're building your stack at poker. You know, the, the problem with gambling is you never know when to walk away. Right? And we're not gambling anymore because we're very good at what we do, but life is always a gamble. So when you build your stack. It's that moment when you say to the cashier, can I get a rack please? And you put it in your rack.

• 49:46Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 49:46Speaker 01

  And you go up to the cashier's desk and you say, cash that in for me. And they go.

• 49:51Steven Bartlett?

  So.

• 49:52Speaker 01

  And you walk away and you go, yeah. And then you get sit down, you're gonna have a nice beer.

• 49:56Steven Bartlett?

  But that moment sucks. You said.

• 49:58Speaker 01

  The mo- the mo- that that moment doesn't suck, but then after, again, it's the thrill, isn't it?

• 50:04Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 50:04Speaker 01

  I like to win. I like to people. So the thing that would hurt me more is if I turn around tomorrow and went, I couldn't do that anymore in boxing. I'm out. Bye. What would hurt me more is sitting on the beach, not, not, you know, enjoying myself going, now I'm gone, all those people that I was fighting again for all those years to become number one, they've got no, they're back, you know, they're back. And that's what, my dad walked away from boxing because it is the most um aggravating business, an intense business. And that's what I'm saying about all throughout the night because everyone's trying to fuck you non-stop, right? So you have to sleep with one eye open. And I think he got to a stage where he went, I don't want to do this anymore. I'm gonna go and do darts where everyone's gonna love me.

• 50:50Speaker 01

  Do you know what I mean? And I I'm jealous of him for that because I saw, growing up, this guy that was so intense and who had a bad temper and, you know, and then all of a sudden, once boxing went, he was just chilled out. Wow, I can't believe what's happened to my life. So, you know, I I I hate to let people win. And if I left, ultimately, they would win. But I guess the only time you can walk away is when you're content. And will the contentment ever come? At the moment, like you say, possibly not. But who knows? You know, who knows where we can build to, where we can get to, where it might be that moment. And again, you have to always leave the option open because as I said, your thoughts at twenty are totally different to your thoughts at thirty and forty and fifty. I may get to fifty

• 51:35Speaker 01

  and we may be, you know, have had another great ten years and I might go, fire's not there anymore. I'm done. Or I might be saying, right, now I want to take over music. Now I want to take over football. Now I want to, you know, so it's difficult to say.

• 51:48Steven Bartlett?

  And with the family businesses, they're a very special thing. And in the world, in the world we live in today, these big global corporations and the public market's growing, it's very rare for a family business to withstand the temptation of acquisitions or going public or whatever. What, who can, you don't have a son.

• 52:05Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 52:06Steven Bartlett?

  Right? And uh. I'm wondering who continues the family business if you were to go down that route. Is it?

• 52:13Speaker 01

  No, well, that's a good point because that is the the conversation, you know. Ever since I started to understand business more, for me, that that is a natural progression of a family business to go. Family business, you know, investment or acquisition or IPO, and that's what you do. Because how do you, I I have, I have aspirations for this business to grow globally. And to be staging events in every major territory in the world, you know, to do that. Does require huge investment, does it does require, you know, management. It and we can do it, but that's not our speciality. Our speciality is creating great live events for our broadcasters and fans.

• 52:58Speaker 01

  Okay, so my dad has always said to me. I will never, ever, ever take investment for the business, float the business or sell the business. And I've always, over the years, gone, yeah, but, you know, we've got to get to it. And actually, the the the son thing's quite interesting, you know, I've been blessed with two amazing daughters. Of course, every man would quite like a son, didn't work out, that's what God gave me. But there is, it's an interesting point because my end goal, if I had a son, and listen, I'm only forty one, who knows? But I think it would be more, you know, here we go again, down the line kind of thing.

• 53:43Speaker 01

  With me, I would quite like to end the journey with my dad. Do you know what I mean? To say, look at what we, you know, not it's gone, but look at where we started, look at where we finished. Because it's very difficult. And I, and I take the interest from, you know, hedge funds and, you know, investment funds with unbelievable amount of compliment to say, wow, you know, and the calls are coming in non-stop because they appreciate the model of growth where when we talk about one sport, one promoter, one belt, you know, that mindset is a carbon copy of the UFC. Now, the UFC sold four point six billion.

• 54:25Speaker 01

  There is no reason why boxing with, with so much more history, with so much more credibility with fans and broadcasters can't replicate that model and actually be even more valuable than the UFC business. And I'm really the only chance it has to do it. It's not going to be Bob Arum. It's not going to be Don King. It's not going to be Frank Warren. It's going to be me. So all of a sudden, I've been giving interviews like that and then the calls are come, well, right, we want, you know, and it's like, guys, we're not, we don't need it. We're not, if I wanted to go and get funding, if I wanted to go and float, I'd do it tomorrow. But it's a big, it's a big, you know, headbutting system with me and, me and my dad. And, you know, he's starting to look, and I'm just saying,

• 55:08Speaker 01

  we can't just be blind to it. It's a natural progression for any business in terms of growth to, to look at these models and.

• 55:17Steven Bartlett?

  But is that why you're doing the business? Because, you know, the happiness you've got from this business, I, I would guess, and I run, I ran a public business until recently, um, much of

• 55:28Speaker 01

  Aggravation.

• 55:29Steven Bartlett?

  Loads of bullshit you don't necessarily want, right? Quarterly reporting, you've got to hit the numbers if you don't, then you've got to do something short term. That's not necessarily in the long-term interest of the business, right? So I, I, I, I'm almost quite jealous of the sap you have, the control you have, you have it in your family and you're happy. But, but you're someone that almost needs forward momentum to continue to be, to be happy.

• 55:52Speaker 01

  Growth, isn't it? You know, you know that as a family business, you know, we, we, you know, you can see in our financial results, we're fantastic. You know, we were a huge, uh, family business in terms of the numbers that we're delivering year on year end.

• 56:05Steven Bartlett?

  Yes.

• 56:05Speaker 01

  Um, but at the same time.

• 56:09Speaker 01

  You're almost capped by the growth and by the numbers within the currents, within that setup.

• 56:15Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 56:16Speaker 01

  You know, okay, so when you start, you turn a break even business into a a five million EBITDA company and then before you know it, the aim is ten and fifteen and now with thirty and, you know. But how do you get to four billion?

• 56:32Steven Bartlett?

  Why does four billion matter?

• 56:33Speaker 01

  That's just the UFC number, you know, so but because why it matters is it was never on the agenda. It was never possible. It could never be done. And I guess it goes back to the competition with my dad where I'm saying, you know, I believe, you know, when you talk about P E ratios and the value of a business, yeah, we know what we're worth now, but I do believe we have the potential to be worth those kind of numbers.

• 56:58Steven Bartlett?

  And that would be your success in some respects.

• 57:01Speaker 01

  It's a game. It's a game, Steve. It's, I don't know, it's not like, I don't, I don't think that deeply to, I just see it as a game.

• 57:10Steven Bartlett?

  But when you start thinking deeply, it doesn't make you question. So, yeah, it's a good point. Why does?

• 57:14Speaker 01

  I don't know. I just, I live in the moment. I live in now. I just feel that every day we're trying to expand, we're trying to push the boundaries, we're trying to do more. So would I like to this business to, you know, sell or have a value of four? Fucking right.

• 57:29Steven Bartlett?

  Why?

• 57:30Speaker 01

  Because it could, it's ridiculous. We're just a couple of, like, he's out of Dagnum, I'm his son.

• 57:36Steven Bartlett?

  It'd be a great story.

• 57:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, but it, it's just, it's us against the world.

• 57:40Steven Bartlett?

  Because the money would do, to be honest, nothing, you know?

• 57:42Speaker 01

  The money wouldn't change my life at all. I'm not, I've got a couple of nice cars, right? I've got a nice house. I don't want a yacht. I don't want a jet. I don't want, I mean, well, I mean, we'll talk about it, but, you know, I don't, I don't want for anything. I'm not, I'm at the age now, maybe when I was in my twenties, yeah, wow, you get a private jet and you got, you just rent it if you need it. So it's just, it's just the fact that what we've done, I think, I think legacy is, um.

• 58:11Speaker 01

  I was talking to Freddie Flintoff on my pod yesterday and I said, I said about legacy. And he went, yeah, I think legacy is a load of bollocks. I actually, I disagree a little bit because, you know, when you go back to that moment where you're on your deathbed and it might be today or, and when you've achieved something like that, you just, you put, you start laughing and you go, I can't believe we've done it. I can't believe we've done it. And that would be the better kind of memories or the achievement to me. You know, can you believe we've done it? But you've got to enjoy it at the same time. But you know, I don't know, it's, you can, you can debate this all, all day long because you sit back on the deathbed and you say, yeah, but was I really happy? Well, of course, because this is bringing us happiness. This is, I know that every day I come in here

• 58:54Speaker 01

  and I'm smiling and I'm up for it and I'm passionate and I'm full of energy. And I've got a drive and a fire in my belly. That's good enough for me. My dad comes in every day. He's been coming in, you know, into this, into this business for fifty, forty five years. And he's got the same passion, the same energy that he did when he first started the company. That's got to tell you something.

• 59:16Steven Bartlett?

  And this is almost somewhat of a contradiction because he's coming in here every day. You're both really, really happy. You're coming in here with a fire in your belly. But then there's this other part of you that's like, but we need the endpoint.

• 59:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, he doesn't, he doesn't, he, he, he doesn't want any of that. You know, he's going, no, son, we've got the most amazing business. You know, we're forecasted to just for continued growth for the next five, 10 years. We've got broadcast contracts locked in. We're untouchable. And I'm like, yeah, but how do we go? You know, I want offices. You know, we have offices in, in England, in New York, in Milan, in Madrid. I want offices in Sydney, in Toronto, in Mumbai, in Beijing. That, that's what I want.

• 1:00:01Steven Bartlett?

  Why?

• 1:00:02Speaker 01

  Because we're not supposed to have it. We were never supposed to be this business. I was never supposed to be this kid.

• 1:00:09Steven Bartlett?

  So it sounds like you're proving something to.

• 1:00:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, maybe, maybe, but probably to him. And if that's what it comes down to.

• 1:00:17Steven Bartlett?

  Which comes back to your childhood.

• 1:00:18Speaker 01

  Probably.

• 1:00:19Steven Bartlett?

  And if you prove that to him. Right, you have all these offices around the world, you sell for five billion, will that make you happy?

• 1:00:26Speaker 01

  Probably not, but I don't know, I I I don't think that selling for five billion and making a load of money will make me happy. But it it will make me happy to be able to say, I can't believe we've done it, you know, I can't believe what we've achieved.

• 1:00:39Steven Bartlett?

  And then you'll need the next thing.

• 1:00:40Speaker 01

  Possibly, or that might be the the cigar on the beach moment.

• 1:00:44Steven Bartlett?

  I wrote I wrote this one sentence in my book where I started to understand the moment I described at the start when someone made me an offer for my business. And I looked at it when I was twenty three and I thought, oh my god, twenty five million quid, I was fucking. And then what I learned in that moment is my whole life became so confused and I almost fell into like, I'd call it chaos. And so in my book, I write that we live our lives thinking that we're striving for stability, which would be completed goals, the cigar. Um, thinking that stability is stability and that we're trying to escape chaos. But what I came to learn was, in fact, um, our stability is chaos. It's the having unanswered goals and it's the problems and it's the forward motion.

• 1:01:24Steven Bartlett?

  So our chaos is stability and our stability, the cigar moment, would actually feel like chaos.

• 1:01:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:01:31Steven Bartlett?

  It would feel like some kind of.

• 1:01:32Speaker 01

  If it wasn't time.

• 1:01:33Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:34Speaker 01

  If it wasn't time and we don't know when it will be time.

• 1:01:36Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:36Speaker 01

  But what you just said there is very true because like any athlete.

• 1:01:42Speaker 01

  That moment when they're in the chaos is where they feel most at peace with themselves. You speak to any fighter and you say, where where would you rather be, anywhere in the world? And they say, in the ring. And that's the same for us. So it's not like I want aggravation, but stick me in it, put me in front of problems and and tell me I can't do something. That's where I'm in my moment. Am I in my moment where I'm sitting at home, you know, watching TV? No, I'm I'm at my best when I'm doing those hundred, two hundred interviews or I've got problems or a fight's fallen through and. You know, all of a sudden the shit's hit the fan, that's when I'm at my best. So and that's where I do feel calm in a way, you know, at first, when you have problems, you know, it might be a panic.

• 1:02:27Speaker 01

  But for me, okay, this is what we do, we go to work now, you know, and that's that's the same for an athlete or a fighter. That's when they feel calm, when you might be watching going, oh, because that's not your your calm, that's not your your moment. It's their moment, I'm fine. Yeah, when AJ fights, he ain't nervous. I'm fucking shitting myself because I can't control it. It's not me. It's not what I do, but that's what he does. You know, when when a fight's fallen through or it looks like a massive show's about to be cancelled. And other people in here might be going, oh, oh, do you think it'll be all right? Do you think we'll do well? And I just lock the door and say, right, leave me alone. And I go, well, that's my, that's, that's no problem for me, you know, but, but you only become.

• 1:03:09Speaker 01

  Exceptional at things and used to things when you become familiar with them. And when you put yourself in the same position time and time again, you talk about Frank, you know, we, we always laugh about him giving his press conferences. You know, because when I did my first ever press conference, which was Audley Harrison against David Haye, I couldn't stop shaking. You wouldn't have known it at the time, but I put my hands on the table like this. And I, and I could, I could feel him, you know, I could, I could see him going. So I just, when I spoke, I just put him underneath. My legs like this and just leant forward and, and you would never have known. And when I done the next one, a little bit less and the next one, and then within five or six, I never needed notes. I'd just speak. You know, for, for hours.

• 1:03:47Steven Bartlett?

  I couldn't believe it.

• 1:03:48Speaker 01

  And with Frank, you know, he done one recently and I could see him shaking, you know, I was just taking the piss out of him and. I just said, just keep doing it, keep doing it, repetition, repetition, keep putting yourself in situations. Steve Davis, who is my godfather, I said to him once. How do you, you know, when you, you, you talk about sort of sports where. Millimeters make a difference. It's nothing more than a snooker, you know. I said, how do you, do you not get nervous? You know, you're about, you go down to pot the blackboard and just little, one little. Jolt and it's all over. And he said, I, I have no nerve endings. He said, because I've been put in a position time and time again. In the end. It's just, it's second nature. It's just like riding a bike.

• 1:04:31Speaker 01

  And that's, that's what, the same with business. You have to keep putting yourself in a position time and time again, and you'll keep improving.

• 1:04:38Steven Bartlett?

  Listen, thank you for your time today.

• 1:04:39Speaker 01

  I probably enjoyed it. No, it's another counselling session.

• 1:04:43Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:43Speaker 01

  You know, I'm gonna leave here now and go away and have to have a deep think and, you know. I think the best, the best thing, you, you can talk about mindset and, and mentality and for hours and hours and hours. Just keep it simple.

• 1:04:57Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm.

• 1:04:58Speaker 01

  Don't overcomplicate things, don't overthink things. But yeah, but keep smiling, that's difficult when you want something so bad and you, you're chasing it, but if you start to really over analyse, that's when, you know, things start creeping in, just keep it simple. And, um, you know, I say, sometimes if things get tough or, you know, we've got problems and I say to my old man, oh, he said, don't worry, he said, just wake up an hour earlier tomorrow and go to bed an hour later. And I'm thinking, that's so, that's so, and he is the most simple mindset. But it works for him because you, and the best thing you can do is be honest with yourself as well, just try and understand, take a step back and just think about what is happening in the world and your world right now.

• 1:05:42Speaker 01

  And if you can understand it, you can deal with it and you can solve it. But just think simple.

• 1:05:49Steven Bartlett?

  Thank you.

• 1:05:50Speaker 01

  Cheers. Thank you.