Philippa Perry: Why everyone has an inner critic, and how to stop believing yours

Should you give your inner critic have a name? Psychotherapist and author Philippa Perry reckons giving that nagging voice in your head a silly name is the first step to stopping it running your life. In this chat with Fearne, Philippa explains why not feeling ‘good enough’ is often less about truth and more about habit. She shares how to tell the difference between a helpful critical inner voice and a self-sabotaging one, and why negative thought patterns keep us stuck. Fearne and Philippa also chat about the power of shame, and why talking about the things you feel most embarrassed about is the fastest way to shrink them. Plus, how is your phone eating away at your ability to connect IRL? And what can you do if you can’t access therapy? Philippa talks through some of her favourite self-therapy exercises. Philippa’s novel, Shrink Solves Murder, is out on May 7th. If you liked this episode of Happy Place, you might also like: Philippa’s first Happy Place episode https://pod.fo/e/14288 Flo Perry https://pod.fo/e/151f3 Bryony Gordon https://pod.fo/e/3fc78f Child on the line is a three-part documentary podcast series celebrating the Volunteer Counsellors of Childline, and the brave children & young people who contact the helpline service. Listen here: https://www.childonthelinepodcast.com/ Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Hi, I'm Natalie Dormer and I'm proud to be an ambassador for Childline. This year, Childline turns 40. To mark it, I've made Child on the Line, a three-part documentary podcast. We hear why children needed a helpline in 1986, how it was built against the odds and the challenges children face today, from abuse and mental health to social media and AI. Search Child on the Line and listen wherever you get your podcasts.

• 0:29Fearne Cotton?

  Hello and a huge welcome to Happy Place with me, Fern Cotton. This is the show that encourages you to be kinder to yourself. Today, I'm chatting to Philippa Perry.

• 0:40Speaker 02

  I've never met anyone who hasn't got an inner critic. The difference between people is those that take the inner critic too seriously and become the inner critic, and those that can observe it and think, not today, thank you. Changing a thought pattern is a bit like building some abs. You can't go to the gym, have one session and expect, you know, the toned body. You have to go three times a week. And so it is with things like thought patterns. You have to practise noticing what they are and deciding to change them.

• 1:12Fearne Cotton?

  I'm really excited about this. Philippa came on Happy Place in 2019, which might as well have been the Victorian era. And it's probably seven years ago. It's outrageous. We've got a lot to catch up on, but I was really excited for many reasons. One is, I've really enjoyed reading her novel. She's got a novel out called Shrink Solves Murder. And it's one of those books that's kept me reading for much longer than a book normally would. So I get very sleepy at about 10pm, just like the eyes are heavy. I'm like, I'm done, I'm out. I was up until 10.30 reading this the other night.

• 1:51Fearne Cotton?

  And thank God I was, because my son was at my ex's house and he had to get rushed to A and E in an ambulance. And I would not have been awake to take that call had I not been up reading this very good book. He was fine, thank goodness. He is all good in the hood and there is no problems. But obviously, as a mum, it's always a scary phone call to receive. He actually loved going in the ambulance and was getting us to document everything to show his mates, so. He got something out of the experience. And what I must also say is that it's the most obvious sort of cliche thing to say, but I can't not say it, but the doctors and nurses were so fucking amazing.

• 2:33Fearne Cotton?

  It was in A and E and it was like one in the morning and they were all so not only wonderful at their jobs and incredibly skilled, but being funny, like joking around with my son and joking around with each other, like the vibe was so lovely in the kids' area. It was just sort of a joy. So I just was like, I love you, I love you, I loved them all. They were just all amazing. So anyway, thank you to Philippa's book because I was awake to receive that phone call. It's a bloody good novel is a sort of shorter way of summarising what I've just said. And thank God Rex is okay. Anyway, let's talk about Philippa. I also love Philippa, by the way, because we chatted before in depth about loads of

• 3:16Fearne Cotton?

  stuff and we've also had her daughter Flo on. We now just need Grayson because I'm a massive Grayson Perry fan, huge. So we're working on it. Philippa is obviously a fantastic psychotherapist. And actually, that was very much her job that she did for years, but she's now a writer, a journalist and just someone who's got a big brilliant brain. And I found her non-fiction books very useful in the past, but this is a really cool moment because she is now writing fiction too. And we talk about all sorts. We talk about the critical inner voice that we all have and how giving it a name can be quite useful. We also look at labels that we're giving in our life, actually in multiple ways.

• 4:00Fearne Cotton?

  Labels other people have given us, like you're bossy, you're stupid, whatever in the past, but also even labels that we're diagnosed with and how that can be helpful maybe initially, but maybe not in the long term. You'll hear more about that because it's obviously quite a complex subject. And we talk about shame, which is obviously a topic that I always like talking about because I've dealt with it and I know lots of you do too. So I really hope that you find many points in this gorgeous chat really helpful.

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• 5:33Speaker 05

  Hello, I'm Joanna Fletcher.

• 5:35Speaker 06

  And I'm Marco Burchella.

• 5:37Speaker 05

  And this is Boots Off.

• 5:40Speaker 06

  We are friends who've spent a decade together, walking up mountains, across deserts, and along coastlines with some seriously awesome groups of humans.

• 5:48Speaker 05

  And something happens when you're out there, feet on the ground, surrounded by nature. The conversations just spill out of you.

• 5:54Speaker 06

  This series is about the adversities that lead to adventure.

• 5:58Speaker 05

  The adventures that lead to adversity.

• 6:00Speaker 06

  And how life can be one big adventure in itself.

• 6:03Speaker 05

  Listen every Thursday. Just search for Boots Off.

• 6:10Fearne Cotton?

  All right, let's crack on with it. Here's the show.

• 6:34Fearne Cotton?

  Philip, I'm so thrilled to see you again.

• 6:36Speaker 02

  I'm so thrilled to be here. Thank you for having me.

• 6:39Fearne Cotton?

  It's so exciting. We were just talking off mic about you're in the middle of a pottery course.

• 6:43Speaker 02

  That's right, I am.

• 6:45Fearne Cotton?

  That must be gorgeous.

• 6:46Speaker 02

  I can build things out of pottery, but I've never learnt how to throw. So now I'm at the wheel and I never realised it was so physical.

• 6:55Fearne Cotton?

  Really?

• 6:55Speaker 02

  You have to put, my arms are aching from pushing the clay and trying to get it into the right shape. It's tough.

• 7:03Fearne Cotton?

  I bet. But is it good to like a bit of a release, like you're getting some aggression into the clay?

• 7:07Speaker 02

  I've never been so tense in all my life. It's, no, not yet. I've only been doing it for two days.

• 7:14Fearne Cotton?

  But how wonderful.

• 7:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, I need a massage.

• 7:17Fearne Cotton?

  You need a massage.

• 7:18Speaker 02

  It's really, it's really tough.

• 7:20Fearne Cotton?

  I really want to do an art course at some point. I love painting. I've always loved painting and it's like my sanity is painting. But I've never, I want to dedicate that time to painting one day and do a proper course.

• 7:31Speaker 02

  Instead of going on a beach holiday.

• 7:33Fearne Cotton?

  Do that.

• 7:33Speaker 02

  Just go for a week's intensive somewhere and with, with a nice tutor and learn it. It's great. I'm having, I'm having quite a lot of fun with it.

• 7:44Fearne Cotton?

  I bet you are. It's such a gorgeous thing to do.

• 7:47Speaker 02

  But it's not relaxing.

• 7:48Fearne Cotton?

  No.

• 7:49Speaker 02

  No, it's hard.

• 7:50Fearne Cotton?

  I don't think I understood how physical pottery was. I need to give it a go.

• 7:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's very physical.

• 7:55Fearne Cotton?

  Well, I'm so glad that we can chat today and hang out because I haven't seen you since 2019.

• 8:01Speaker 02

  That's right. That was before, a year before the pandemic, I think.

• 8:04Fearne Cotton?

  It was so bonkers to look back because I went through our podcast feed and I was sprawling back and like, nope, still not there. I was like, Philip, 2019. To me, that was maybe a couple of years ago, seven years ago.

• 8:17Speaker 02

  Seven years ago. I mean, seven years used to be such a long time. But now it's like last week.

• 8:24Fearne Cotton?

  I know. It's terrifying.

• 8:26Speaker 02

  It's like catching up with old friends. I feel like, oh yeah, let's have lunch again. That'd be great. And then we say, oh my God, we last had lunch a year ago.

• 8:33Fearne Cotton?

  I know. It's mad.

• 8:35Speaker 02

  Time speeds up.

• 8:37Fearne Cotton?

  I mean, last time we met, we did a deep dive on your book, the book you wish your parents had read, which is a book that seemingly just lives on and on. A book that people are still so interested in and love reading and buying.

• 8:48Speaker 02

  People keep having children. And they need to know how to have relationships with them. So the book is still relevant.

• 8:55Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah. I mean, you must still get approached a lot with, you know, parents coming up to you or kids of parents saying, this book has changed my life.

• 9:02Speaker 02

  Well, luckily I've got a Substack, so people can write to me with their problems about parenting or relationships or anything. So yes, they do keep coming up to me, either via email or in the street.

• 9:15Fearne Cotton?

  Hmm. I mean, it remains, I'm, you know, obviously I have parents, I am a parent. It remains still one of the sort of most obviously important dynamics in my life, but the one that teaches me the most relentlessly. You know, you're constantly confronted with yourself and the things that trigger you, but also the things that make you feel great about yourself. It is just the most bonkers dynamic to deal with being a parent.

• 9:44Speaker 02

  It is. And you've written a book called Likeable, which is really relevant, actually, because you can't just be likeable to your kids.

• 9:54Fearne Cotton?

  No.

• 9:55Speaker 02

  It's love plus boundaries. It's not either or.

• 9:59Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 9:59Speaker 02

  It's, it's got to be both. Otherwise you'd just be, well, steamrolled.

• 10:03Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah. And also I think then your kids go off out into the world expecting like, everyone's just going to say yes to everything that I want to do. Or, you know, you're not then used to boundaries yourself if you go into the world without that.

• 10:13Speaker 02

  And you can't put down boundaries yourself unless you've had that demonstrated to you by your parents.

• 10:20Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 10:21Speaker 02

  My daughter's incredibly good at boundaries.

• 10:24Fearne Cotton?

  Really?

• 10:24Speaker 02

  A little bit too good sometimes. Not today, mum.

• 10:28Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, okay. We've had Flo on the podcast.

• 10:31Speaker 02

  Oh, have you?

• 10:32Fearne Cotton?

  Yes. Well, not only that, I painted her. Well, she came onto the podcast and then I painted a portrait of her.

• 10:38Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 10:39Fearne Cotton?

  But we had such a great chat. I mean, she's an incredibly talented artist as well.

• 10:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, she is.

• 10:42Fearne Cotton?

  And got married, was it last December?

• 10:45Speaker 02

  She got married last November.

• 10:46Fearne Cotton?

  November.

• 10:47Speaker 02

  To a Scottish lass and they've just moved to Scotland.

• 10:52Fearne Cotton?

  Wow.

• 10:53Speaker 02

  And I'm getting on a plane very soon to get in the way. Tell them where they should put their furniture.

• 11:00Fearne Cotton?

  I love that.

• 11:01Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 11:02Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, but that, I mean, the wedding looked gorgeous. I was looking at all the pictures online.

• 11:05Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, yeah. It was, it was really good, except for one thing. Grayson, my husband, dad dancing, snapped his Achilles tendon.

• 11:16Fearne Cotton?

  Yes. Going for it a bit too much.

• 11:18Speaker 02

  Going for it a little bit too much with a little bit too much alcohol in his system.

• 11:22Fearne Cotton?

  Right.

• 11:23Speaker 02

  Didn't know his limits, I'm afraid. Snap, no tendon. And it's the slowest thing to heal in the body. It's much better if you break a bone.

• 11:32Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, God.

• 11:33Speaker 02

  Because this takes about nine months to heal.

• 11:35Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, God.

• 11:36Speaker 02

  And he gets out of the boot and he's told to do a lot of walking. You should never tell my husband to do a lot of something because he takes it literally. And he did so much walking that he, because he wanted to get better fast, that he's now got a stress fracture on his foot. And now he's got to go back into the boot.

• 11:53Fearne Cotton?

  I mean, it's a sign of a good party.

• 11:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, it is. And, you know, the higher the number of hospital admissions, the better the party, for sure.

• 12:01Fearne Cotton?

  I think so. It's so great. Hey, I loved reading this book.

• 12:05Speaker 02

  Oh, thank you.

• 12:07Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, much. It's so brilliant. This is a fiction that you've written, Philippa. Shrink solves murder.

• 12:13Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 12:14Fearne Cotton?

  And the protagonist, Pat, is expecting her 3pm to turn up.

• 12:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 12:18Fearne Cotton?

  He doesn't. There's a suspected suicide, but she's assuming it's not suicide. And therefore she goes on this sort of treasure hunt of clues and trying to decipher what happens. I'm imagining as a, well, having a big therapeutic background, that actually having that sort of mindset, you're in, you sort of have got yourself in a good position to solve, if it is a potential murder, a murder. Or look for clues because you have to have, I'm imagining a very wide perspective on life and human behaviour, self-awareness.

• 12:50Speaker 02

  I think actually her, Pat's biggest advantage is that she knows how to rally the troops. She could not have solved that murder alone.

• 13:04Speaker 02

  And one thing psychotherapists are supposed to be good at is having relationships. And so it's her relationships with other people that working together, they, they get to the answer.

• 13:16Fearne Cotton?

  Hmm, I love that. I love that.

• 13:19Speaker 02

  She didn't do it by herself.

• 13:21Fearne Cotton?

  No, and there's so many things I love about Pat and I wonder how much crossover there is with yourself. I mean, whenever you write fiction, it's hard not to put lived experience or yourself in there.

• 13:31Speaker 02

  She is definitely an aspect of me. She is the person I kind of wish I was, but I'm not. Maybe I've got to read your book because um Pat does not worry about being likeable.

• 13:44Fearne Cotton?

  Love that.

• 13:45Speaker 02

  She is the grumpiest woman you'll meet on the South Downs.

• 13:48Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 13:49Speaker 02

  And when you meet her on the South Downs, she'll probably tell you off for something.

• 13:53Fearne Cotton?

  Well, she's very pissed off about someone leaving a Mars bar wrapper daily.

• 13:56Speaker 02

  Yes, that is a, that is a subplot, the Mars bar wrapper. That's another mystery that needs solving.

• 14:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 14:04Fearne Cotton?

  But she loves cold water swimming, which is something that you love.

• 14:07Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 14:07Fearne Cotton?

  Swimming in the sea. What benefits do you get from that? What do you love about it?

• 14:11Speaker 02

  You get really, really cold and it's so nice to warm up again. I'm, I'm not actually sure what benefits it gives you. I like moving my arms and legs in the water, but I actually would prefer if it was 30 degrees and not six degrees. But you have to, you have to go with what you can work with. It's nicer than swimming in a swimming pool because you're, you know, you're out in nature and stuff. But the downside is that it's cold, but you can get used to the cold.

• 14:37Fearne Cotton?

  You can. And like you say, the relief is just such a glorious moment at the end.

• 14:41Speaker 02

  When you get out.

• 14:42Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah. And you feel like you've achieved something. Yeah. When you're dry and warm and thinking back to the colder days, it is wonderful.

• 14:48Speaker 02

  It does get the blood pumping for sure.

• 14:50Fearne Cotton?

  It really, it really, really does. So you, so you'd like, you're saying you'd like to be a bit more cantankerous like Pat?

• 14:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm working towards getting there. Yeah.

• 14:59Fearne Cotton?

  I love that.

• 15:00Speaker 02

  Yeah. And the other thing about the book is that I've made some characters that I hope you enjoy hanging out with. Her friends, her frenemies, her enemies.

• 15:10Fearne Cotton?

  Some are loathsome.

• 15:11Speaker 02

  Yes, they're fun though, aren't they?

• 15:12Fearne Cotton?

  So fun.

• 15:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 15:14Fearne Cotton?

  Imagining fun to write, loads of characters are fun to write.

• 15:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, they are.

• 15:17Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, because you can just put out all your like inner wishes.

• 15:20Speaker 02

  You can just imagine a friend of yours and, I say friend, and, and put them in the book and you know they're so vain, they're never going to recognise themselves.

• 15:31Fearne Cotton?

  I love it.

• 15:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 15:32Fearne Cotton?

  You've said not so much about this Pat, but if it's the same Pat in your book Couch Fiction, that you wanted to create a therapist character who was imperfect.

• 15:43Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 15:43Fearne Cotton?

  Because we've all got this imagined idea that therapists are these perfect humans who just get how the world works and they're there to tell us how to live. And that's, that's not what you believe.

• 15:53Speaker 02

  And Couch Fiction was Pat Phillips, maybe 15 years ago. And she was an imperfect therapist then, and she's an imperfect therapist now. In fact, we have a session in the book with her, with her supervisor, who does quite a lot of trying to knock Pat back into some sort of therapeutic shape, rather than become a sleuth, yes.

• 16:17Fearne Cotton?

  I love that mention of, of Pat meeting up with other therapists, because that is something that therapists do, right? It's essential that they have therapy.

• 16:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 16:26Fearne Cotton?

  Did, did you do that? Do you still do that?

• 16:28Speaker 02

  I meet up once a year with 50 psychotherapists for a week. I like to get it all over, you know, in one week.

• 16:36Fearne Cotton?

  Okay.

• 16:36Speaker 02

  And we all go to Mexico and we take over a convent and it's like a campus and we hang out and we do therapy on each other intensely for a week.

• 16:47Fearne Cotton?

  Wow.

• 16:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's wonderful. I really enjoy it. Yeah.

• 16:51Fearne Cotton?

  I can only imagine. I mean, therapy has absolutely changed my life, like in every way. I used to dip in and out of it and think, oh, just go. It was always like SOS moments. And then the last two years, I thought, I've got to give a more consistent approach a go and just see what happens. And my whole life's changed. I go every Wednesday.

• 17:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 17:12Fearne Cotton?

  As much as I can on that, on that particular day. And it is something about going on even a day where you feel all right that seems to be the key.

• 17:21Speaker 02

  I think it's when you're feeling all right, you've got more power, energy to rise above your life and look down on it and observe yourself. And that's what's really useful. If you're in the middle of a really big feeling, all you've got is that really big feeling. But if you can separate yourself from the feeling and observe yourself having feeling, you realise you've got choices.

• 17:47Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 17:47Speaker 02

  That you don't realise you've got when you're, if you're right in the middle of it.

• 17:52Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, because when you're in it, you just think this is fact. This is, I have those moments of time where I'm like, this is shit and I am this, rather than, like you say, when you're maybe on a better day, you can go, oh, I have felt like that, or there's a bit of distance.

• 18:08Speaker 02

  Or, oh, I notice I'm talking to myself with a critical voice again. Oh, okay. Hi, whatever you want to call your critical voice, you know, Mrs. Bobkin or something. Just give it a silly name.

• 18:20Fearne Cotton?

  Give it a comical name.

• 18:21Speaker 02

  Yeah. Hi, Sandra. Yeah. All right, Karen.

• 18:25Fearne Cotton?

  I like a very human name.

• 18:27Speaker 02

  Apologies to all the Sandras and Karens. I love you all, but you know, you've just got to give your critical voice a name.

• 18:33Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 18:33Speaker 02

  And then it's, then it's separate from you and you don't take it as seriously.

• 18:39Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah. I mean, I actually did a post about this on Instagram this morning because I could hear my critical voice piping up a bit over the Easter holidays. And my exact post was my tip of the day. Not that I know what I'm talking about, but my tip of the day from personal experience is be less of a cunt to yourself because we are so awful to ourselves.

• 19:02Speaker 02

  We are our own worst enemies.

• 19:04Fearne Cotton?

  Awful.

• 19:04Speaker 02

  And our own worst critics.

• 19:06Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 19:07Speaker 02

  I have to have a lot of editors telling me, no, keep writing. Yeah. No, the book is good. Keep going. Because others, I go, is it any good? Is it? No, no, it's not. Apparently it's really good. Thanks very much.

• 19:22Fearne Cotton?

  It's really good, but I think especially with fiction, what you're doing is asking a bunch of strangers to believe in a made up story.

• 19:29Speaker 02

  It's, I didn't realise that it was going to be so much more exposing than writing non-fiction. Because non-fiction, you're writing the truth, you, you put in examples from your own life. I mean, surely that's the most exposing thing. No, putting your imagination out on the page, that is exposing.

• 19:48Fearne Cotton?

  Terrifying.

• 19:48Speaker 02

  That is the true you. That's what's, that's what's going on in your head all the time.

• 19:53Fearne Cotton?

  Yes, exactly. And it, as I said, it's a big ask to go, and everybody else, please believe this as much as I do. And that's sort of vulnerability in hoping that they do. So say, you know, we could use this book as an example. You're in the middle of the book, you've got a bit of self doubt going on or a critical voice. What do you do with your knowledge and wisdom to override that?

• 20:14Speaker 02

  I just take no notice of it. I go, you know, hello Betty to the critical voice. Thanks very much. I'm sure you'd like me to stop now, but I'm going to go on even if I don't like it and I'm going to push through. So I do that and then I show it to someone and somebody encouraging, don't show it to your worst enemy. I show it to someone and they give me some encouragement. The people at my publishers are wonderful and very encouraging. And, you know, cheerleaders they are. It's really great.

• 20:46Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, we do need that. We need, when we can't find that positive voice ourselves, we, we have to find the right people.

• 20:53Speaker 02

  I mean, sometimes I feel like if I don't believe in me, I need to find people that do believe in me and they can just carry me over the river. Over the torrent till I get to the other side and then, oh, thanks guys. I mean, I've thanked them in the acknowledgements, my sort of like rallying team of friends and there's just support. Even if they don't know what's going on in the book. I'm reminded that my friends that have known me for a long time go, you do this with every single book you write. You always say, it's no good, it's no good. And then it goes on to be a bestseller. So will you shut up? I go, okay, thanks.

• 21:27Fearne Cotton?

  There's a horrible little cycle, I think. Like, I've talked to friends of mine that are either right in the process at the same time as me, or we know that cycle well of, oh my god, I've got an idea, I'm so excited.

• 21:38Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 21:39Fearne Cotton?

  It's so exciting, it's so exciting. And then either halfway through or in the edit, this is a pile of shit. I don't know even what this means anymore. What the hell is this? And you do need good people at that point to sort of salvage your confidence with

• 21:53Speaker 02

  You need carrying.

• 21:53Fearne Cotton?

  You do.

• 21:54Speaker 02

  You need carrying. And even on my pottery course, right, I'm throwing pots for the first time, and I think it looks like a sort of wobbly egg cup. And the teacher comes along and goes, that's great, you're doing really well. And I go, really? Thanks very much. And I can carry on.

• 22:12Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 22:13Speaker 02

  And if she said, like, if she chimed with the voice in my head of saying, that's rubbish, I'd probably pack up my little wooden tools and leave.

• 22:21Fearne Cotton?

  Yes. And I think, you know, so many of us lose confidence, maybe when we leave childhood, because somebody at some point has said to us, you're bad at that. You shouldn't

• 22:33Speaker 02

  I think if you look at children's drawings, you can see this, because children draw without any self-consciousness. This is my house, this is my mum, this is my cat, you know, circles with sticks out of them. And I don't know when it happened, seven, eight, nine, sometimes they just think, no, that's crap, that's no good.

• 22:53Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 22:54Speaker 02

  It's no good. And they stop drawing. And then they never get any better. But if they carry on drawing, you draw like a grown up in the end.

• 23:02Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah. And also, you will enjoy it. Like, you're saying, you're starting pottery.

• 23:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 23:07Fearne Cotton?

  You're not going to be good immediately starting something new, but to carry on doing something because it feels good, rather than the outcome must be amazing, that feels very important.

• 23:15Speaker 02

  I mean, especially as I can build things out of slabs in pottery, so I can make some great looking things in pottery. And here I am doing a new technique. And I just want to go, I know how to make this look better if I do my old way. But that's not the point. I'm learning a new technical skill.

• 23:30Fearne Cotton?

  Yes. It's so good to learn new things.

• 23:32Speaker 02

  It's good for your brain.

• 23:33Fearne Cotton?

  Try new things and put yourself in a position where you're ground zero. You don't know what you're doing. I think that's so important.

• 23:40Speaker 02

  And I think that if you were one of those children who were told, and no, you're not because you're a good artist. But you're told, don't bother drawing, you haven't got any talent. And you've stopped, you can start again, whatever age you are.

• 23:55Fearne Cotton?

  But I think also.

• 23:56Speaker 02

  You can start at eighty, like Grandma Moses.

• 23:59Fearne Cotton?

  Absolutely. I think it goes even further than outside of people critiquing what you're good at or not good at. When people give you a label, like in childhood, if someone says, you're being too loud, or you're cocky. Or why are you always the kid that does that thing? I think that stuff stays with you later in life. What's the way to start overriding that when you know you've got this label that you don't like about yourself?

• 24:26Speaker 02

  Like mine was show off.

• 24:28Fearne Cotton?

  Right.

• 24:29Speaker 02

  So it was very difficult for me, I think, to do anything in public. In fact, I didn't publish my first book until I was fifty. You know, I worked as a psychotherapist behind closed doors and nobody knew what I got up to. And I was, I am a show off. I don't deny it. And so the show off part of me is what was like, why can't I show anybody what I do? Which is when I wrote Couch Fiction, which is a graphic novel about psychotherapy. And so I felt like now I've shown people what I can do. But what I found out by doing that book, that wasn't all that great at it actually. Because you had to write a book of truth, even if it's a book of fiction, otherwise it doesn't work.

• 25:10Speaker 02

  And I realised like, I'm only an average therapist. I'm not the greatest, I'm not a great therapist. But I thought, and that's good enough as well.

• 25:20Fearne Cotton?

  I mean, you are a great therapist.

• 25:22Speaker 02

  I'm a therapist. No, I don't think I'm a great therapist. I mean, well, after working with forty nine other really great therapists.

• 25:33Speaker 02

  I realised that, you know, my talent is somewhere to go in that, in that respect.

• 25:38Fearne Cotton?

  Do you really think that?

• 25:39Speaker 02

  Well, I think there's always room for improvement. Yeah, for sure.

• 25:42Fearne Cotton?

  I mean, I've got so much from reading your books, I can't tell you.

• 25:46Speaker 02

  I'm not saying I'm not, but I'm probably better at writing about therapy than practising it. Because I get very impatient because I see the end goal and I kind of want to push my clients faster than they want to go to the end goal. And you shouldn't do that. You should go at the client's pace. So I do have the odd fault.

• 26:06Fearne Cotton?

  Do you think in, you know, because not only with your psychotherapy, but you, you're, correct me if I'm wrong. Your initiation was working for the Samaritans back in the day. So that, you know, is, is another flavour of that also, learning how to talk to people, how to encourage people, how to help people recover from very tricky situations. Would you say over the course of your work in psychotherapy, there are very solid themes that come up again and again? And, you know, the circumstance will be different, but as humans, we all struggle with X, Y and Z.

• 26:41Speaker 02

  I've never met anyone who hasn't got an inner critic of some sort or other. And I think the difference between people is those that take the inner critic too seriously and become the inner critic. And those that can observe it and think, not today, thank you. I think that is a big theme for most people.

• 27:04Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, but how refreshing to know that everybody has that. Because I think we assume there are some people immune to it. They don't have it.

• 27:11Speaker 02

  Well, I just wonder where Donald Trump's inner critic is.

• 27:14Fearne Cotton?

  Okay, he hasn't got one.

• 27:17Speaker 02

  And maybe if you haven't got one, you do go mad. I don't know.

• 27:22Fearne Cotton?

  I think it is maybe a symptom of sociopathy.

• 27:25Speaker 02

  I mean, it's quite good to have a helpful critic, isn't it? So you have to know what is a self sabotaging inner critic? And what is quite useful feedback for doing better next time? And I think how you tell the difference is that a bad inner critic is a generalised, this is no good, this is terrible. Whereas a useful one is you got those bits right. This bit could do with a bit of fine tuning, but that bit's working well. If it's specific. Feedback about where you can improve and it's not a damning of your character or of the whole of you, then it's probably quite useful.

• 28:05Fearne Cotton?

  I agree, because I think when it is that blanket coverage, you're shit. That's the thing that then stops you even bothering at all. Like, I'm leaving that, I'm not going to try that thing or do that thing. It's, it can be massively debilitating.

• 28:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 28:18Fearne Cotton?

  When you've been in Mexico and you're working with these other therapists, what have you come away with? Is it, I don't know, more self-awareness or understanding about yourself? Or has it helped you heal from certain things?

• 28:32Speaker 02

  I think what I come away with is the more of ability to stay grounded in myself, rather than being a bit too much in my thoughts. So I think I get a little bit more in my body and be able to relate and respond from that place.

• 28:52Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 28:53Speaker 02

  I can all too easily, I'm a bit of an intellectual, so I can all too easily go up into my head and then miss the other person. Because really, we are bodies, you know, that's what we basically are. And although we're talking to each other with words, you know, we're also breathing together, sitting opposite to each other, we're in each other's space, we're breathing each other's air. So I think that body to body communication is really important. And if you're too much in your head, you can't receive the other person on a sort of bodily level. You know, when you walk into a room and there's an atmosphere, you go, hello, what's going on there?

• 29:39Speaker 02

  That's when it's an extreme body to body reaction. You're responding to the tension in other people's bodies. A word doesn't have to be spoken and you can sort of feel it. You go, hello, what's going on? And I think that can be, that reaction can be fine tuned all the way down to, you know, how do we feel together? And I think I come away with much better skills in that department, which I can forget the rest of the time.

• 30:07Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, I mean, it is, it's imperative when you're like reading a situation, reading a room. But I'm imagining. One step further is using that to your benefit when you're in a setting, I don't know, where you feel nervous or a setting where you feel intimidated, inferior. I've been in so many situations where I've felt inferior to a journalist interviewing me or something where I feel a bit triggered and you notice that your body language is curled up and in and you're actually, and actually if you can fake it till you make it, I guess really, and inhabit a body that feels relaxed and outward, it does help cognitively change things.

• 30:47Speaker 02

  I mean, a real easy way to do that is thinking, how am I breathing right now?

• 30:52Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 30:53Speaker 02

  And as soon as you do that, you usually slow down.

• 30:57Fearne Cotton?

  Mmm.

• 30:58Speaker 02

  And get into the breath.

• 30:59Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 31:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's nice, isn't it?

• 31:02Fearne Cotton?

  Oh my God, I love it. I used to hold my breath at the top when I was on the radio.

• 31:06Speaker 02

  Oh, did you?

• 31:07Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, and I was on the radio every bloody day and I would find myself.

• 31:10Speaker 02

  I never noticed. You sounded good to me.

• 31:13Fearne Cotton?

  Oh my God, but you're like on tenterhooks. Don't, I don't want anything bad to happen, so I'm gonna hold my breath to freeze time, you know, and then as soon as you exhale, it is like the simplest way just to go, oh my God, like I'm safe. Everything's all right.

• 31:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 31:28Fearne Cotton?

  I'm okay.

• 31:33Speaker 05

  Hello, I'm Joanna Fletcher.

• 31:35Speaker 06

  And I'm Marco Burchella.

• 31:37Speaker 05

  And this is Boots Off.

• 31:40Speaker 06

  We are friends who've spent a decade together, walking up mountains, across deserts and along coastlines with some seriously awesome groups of humans.

• 31:48Speaker 05

  And something happens when you're out there, feet on the ground, surrounded by nature. The conversations just spill out of you.

• 31:54Speaker 06

  This series is about the adversities that lead to adventure.

• 31:57Speaker 05

  The adventures that lead to adversity.

• 31:59Speaker 06

  And how life can be one big adventure in itself.

• 32:03Speaker 05

  Listen every Thursday. Just search for Boots Off.

• 32:10Fearne Cotton?

  What would you say are the things in your life story that have been recurrent? Where you're like, I'm in that cycle again, I'm doing that again. Like habits you've fallen into or, or cycles that you know aren't helpful in your life, that you've been able to kind of stop and check and go, there's room for change there?

• 32:29Speaker 02

  I think one of them is, I'm not good enough. That can come in and so it's really good to clock it and sometimes I don't. Sometimes I'm just acting as if I'm not good enough, rather than noticing that's what's happening and thinking, I'm probably good enough. So there's that, that one.

• 32:52Fearne Cotton?

  I find that really surprising. I wasn't expecting you to say that.

• 32:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, and sometimes I can be shy. And the best way of me not being shy is to come out, talk to people, meet people, go on a pottery call, chat to people. It's practice. And I found out during the pandemic, when I didn't practise my social muscle, that it atrophied.

• 33:18Fearne Cotton?

  Yep.

• 33:19Speaker 02

  So the first party I went to, which was a book launch, was my, it wasn't my best friends, who I was probably okay with. It was like colleagues, fellow writers, people I was really pleased to see and wanted to see. I just sort of got so shy, I couldn't cope with it. And so because of the lack of social practice, I'd, I'd, I'd gone back to being about 15.

• 33:46Fearne Cotton?

  Wow.

• 33:47Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah, it was, it was bad.

• 33:50Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, I mean, I definitely got very hermity in the pandemic and I found it like a struggle. And also I had an operation at the end of 2024, was it four? I can't remember. Anyway, I was out, I didn't work for about six weeks and I didn't really see anyone. And then I had a work event. It was the first week back in January and I was like a rabbit in headlights, like, oh my God, all these people. And what's my face doing? Am I smiling? Am I grimacing? You know, and you, it is practice.

• 34:16Speaker 02

  Self-consciousness comes back.

• 34:18Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, of course.

• 34:20Speaker 02

  And normally I'm just interested in other people and don't think about being self-conscious. But that takes practice.

• 34:27Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 34:28Speaker 02

  And when I was out of practice, I was going, oh, do I eat a canopy? Oh, will that look ugly? Ah, you know, what? What a load of rubbish to fill your head with. Took me ages to get back, back into eating canopies unselfconsciously, you know.

• 34:48Fearne Cotton?

  It's a big step.

• 34:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, thanks.

• 34:51Fearne Cotton?

  When we look at that notion of not, not being good enough, I'm pretty sure that 90% of people listening to this, if not more, will go, well, I feel like that, or I have in the past felt like that. It's probably the number one thing that halts us from, again, trying something new, socialising altogether.

• 35:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 35:10Fearne Cotton?

  Dating, you know, it's going to affect all areas of our life. How do we start to override that or to, is it again fake it till you make it? Because often there's not proof to go, oh, but I am good enough, you know, because it's not an evidence-based thing.

• 35:24Speaker 02

  The other thing is a silly question. Good enough or not good enough, it's not really relevant, is it?

• 35:30Fearne Cotton?

  No, no.

• 35:31Speaker 02

  It's sort of like, you're here, you're allowed to be here. And some people have had more experience of some things than you have. And you've had more experience than some things that, that they have. You know, they might all be brilliant television producers or whatever they are. But you're a psychotherapist or

• 35:50Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 35:50Speaker 02

  You're a broadcaster or wherever you are, you know, you've got your area.

• 35:55Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 35:56Speaker 02

  You know your children better than they do, or whatever your thing of expertise is. You don't have to be expert at anything, but I just feel like we're all humans. And that's it really. We're, we're all human and we're all pretty much equal.

• 36:12Fearne Cotton?

  We, I mean, we are. Do you think, is this quite a modern day concept, this like not being good enough thing? Because if I think about my grandmother's generation or my great grandma who I met, because she lived till she was like 95, I don't think that was necessarily a thought process. It certainly wasn't a conversation.

• 36:30Speaker 02

  By the time you get to 95, you're really.

• 36:32Fearne Cotton?

  You don't give a shit.

• 36:33Speaker 02

  You're really owning it. My grandmother, aged 99 or something, I said, what's the advantage of your age? And she says, I can say whatever I want.

• 36:43Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, I love that.

• 36:45Speaker 02

  And I just thought, why not bring that forward a bit?

• 36:48Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 36:48Speaker 02

  Let's not wait till we're 99 before we say, I can say whatever I like.

• 36:53Fearne Cotton?

  No, I mean, I've got lots of intergenerational friendships and my friends who are in their 70s, 80s, they're the ones that are like, I don't care and you will get to that point. But like you say, why are we waiting?

• 37:05Speaker 02

  Well, it might be something to do with estrogen.

• 37:08Fearne Cotton?

  Right.

• 37:08Speaker 02

  Estrogen.

• 37:09Fearne Cotton?

  Well, when that goes, we don't give a fuck.

• 37:10Speaker 02

  That's right. Estrogen is the hormone you've got to make sure you don't kill your children. It's the nice hormone.

• 37:20Fearne Cotton?

  Right.

• 37:20Speaker 02

  It's along with oxytocin, it's the loving hormone. And when we go through the perimenopause and the menopause, it depletes and then it's much easier to give far fewer fucks.

• 37:32Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah. How do we do that without these?

• 37:36Speaker 02

  Unfortunately, I was so bad with that estrogen, I was homicidal, but now I have the patches, so I'm still nice.

• 37:45Fearne Cotton?

  You can't have it both ways.

• 37:46Speaker 02

  No, you can't.

• 37:47Fearne Cotton?

  Sadly. I mean, as I said, therapy has been massively game changing for me, but I'm a lucky person who can afford to go to therapy. And we know that globally, this is an issue that we've got, is access to therapy. I mean, this is.

• 38:05Speaker 02

  Access to good therapy.

• 38:06Fearne Cotton?

  To good therapy.

• 38:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 38:09Fearne Cotton?

  What do we do about that?

• 38:11Speaker 02

  Well, it's paying for it, isn't it? And if you can't pay for it, what you mentioned earlier is that every Wednesday you go. So what you have is a regular practice. Yeah. And I think regular structured practices can really help us. For instance, keeping a gratitude journal. Yeah. Sounds really simple, but if you do that every night, just after you've cleaned your teeth and before, and before you start reading your novel, just write down three things that you're grateful for today. It does over time, switch your mindset to noticing the good things as well as the shit things. Yeah. So there's that sort of practice.

• 38:56Speaker 02

  And also you can do mindfulness exercises, which sound really dull. And they are quite, I'm not, I'm not gonna lie. But I like to, once a week, sit down, no devices. I sit on the floor, actually, to keep myself awake. No devices, sit on the floor, back against the wall. And have next to me a pencil and paper. And any thought that comes in, I don't turn it into thinking, I keep it as a thought, just write it down. So it's sort of like, oh, I can hear clanking outside. So any old random shit. Any old random thought, all right, oh, mustn't forget that. Oh, let it go, let it go, any random thought.

• 39:41Speaker 02

  And then afterwards, you can have a look at those thoughts. And you have to do it for half an hour. And for the first quarter of an hour, I'm always angry that I'm doing the exercise. And then the last quarter of an hour, I really start to enjoy it and it goes really fast. Such an interesting, I've never hea-, you know, I've looked into lots of mindfulness. I've never heard of that one and I like this. It's, how to do it is in my book, How to Stay Sane. Hmm. Which has got many exercises that are good for self-therapy in it, including that one. And then you notice what your thoughts are and you can go, my goodness, I've had 25 self-critical thoughts, two practical thoughts, three thoughts about what I can sense.

• 40:28Speaker 02

  And then you can go, well, I could steer my mind a bit. So then you could do another exercise where you only notice uh what you can see, what you can hear, what you can taste, what you can smell and what you can touch. Like you can be aware of what the what the fluffy carpet feels like under my feet. I can be aware of what my hands feel like on my jeans. Now, this is not interesting, but it can get interesting because you just get into your senses. Um it's sort of uh the Gestaltists used to call it, leave your mind and come to your senses. Oh, I like that. Because it's about letting the chattering mind go.

• 41:13Speaker 02

  The other thing you can think about are things like, you can have thousands of thoughts a day. But if you classed one down and bring it down, you can make it into thinking. And you can choose whether you let go of that thought or bring it in to make it into thinking. We have choices about this. And if you sort of have some sort of regular practice where you notice your thoughts and notice what you want to do with them. It can be as good as therapy. I mean, it's a lot easier when you've got someone to work with about, you know, what's going on in your mind and unpacking your mind and seeing what you want to do with it. Unpack your mind, lay everything out, only put back what you need.

• 41:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, because we've got more autonomy than we believe. And what it's about is sort of journaling and things like that. What it's about is to become more self-aware. Because when we become more self-aware, we then got choices. Yeah. I've got a choice whether I do round in circles panic thinking or whether I come to my senses and notice what I can see, hear, smell, touch. And coming into your senses, if you say do that practice for like quarter of an hour, just what can I smell? It's quite fun to do it now. What can I smell? What can I hear?

• 42:40Speaker 02

  Oh, I think I can hear a buzzing sound, you know, it's, it's very calming. And it, and it shows you, you do have a choice about what you fill your head with.

• 42:49Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah. Oh, my God. I mean, we fill it with utter crap a lot of the time because we're on our phones and we're, I don't know, people have got opinions about our lives and we're taking that on and we're sort of bombarded by it.

• 43:02Speaker 02

  The phone unfortunately is a source of dopamine. Now, that gives you a sort of little thrill.

• 43:10Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 43:11Speaker 02

  But it's not the right sort of thrill. The right sort of thrill is the thrill I'm having now because I'm having a conversation with you. It's a contact thrill. And in the olden days, when we were a bit bored, we used to talk to the person next to us on the train or the bus.

• 43:28Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 43:29Speaker 02

  But now we're always on our phones because that's not a risk, that's easier and that's instant. Oh, you know, scrolling, in my case, lots of cats falling off buildings and things.

• 43:42Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, same.

• 43:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, lovely. Yeah, nice. But, you know, 10 minutes a day, okay, but let's not forget the lost art of conversation.

• 43:51Fearne Cotton?

  Yes.

• 43:53Speaker 02

  And what is so great about being on a pottery throwing course, everyone, is that you need both hands on the wheel. So there's no scrolling going on.

• 44:02Fearne Cotton?

  None.

• 44:02Speaker 02

  So we're actually having, I'm having nice chats with strangers.

• 44:05Fearne Cotton?

  That's so important.

• 44:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's really nice.

• 44:08Fearne Cotton?

  And it is, like you say, so much rarer these days. I remember once I actually met an ex-boyfriend when I was a teenager because he used to get on the same train as me. That would never happen today because no one's looking at each other.

• 44:19Speaker 02

  You can't remember who's on the train with you now because you're just looking at Fern's Instagram.

• 44:24Fearne Cotton?

  Exactly. We're just on these screens the whole time.

• 44:27Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, they are fun, but they, they are addictive and they're designed to be addictive. So just like you wouldn't drink too much, don't take too much of them in. I'm not saying put them down altogether because they are quite fun.

• 44:40Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 44:41Speaker 02

  They are quite soothing.

• 44:42Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 44:43Speaker 02

  But they, it's not so much the Doing it that's damaging, I think, as what you're not doing when your hours are eaten up with that, what you are missing out on.

• 44:54Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, hugely.

• 44:55Speaker 02

  And it might be missing out on real contact with real people.

• 44:59Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah. Oh, my God, it's just so important. I love, I'm gonna do that mindfulness exercise because I think, I know that if I get in a cycle, and it's usually an angry cycle, like I know where my head will go and it will be an angry thing.

• 45:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 45:15Fearne Cotton?

  And I do have spontaneous moments where I go, I'm gonna choose to not dwell on that today or think about that. And as you say, like, bring it into your thinking.

• 45:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 45:24Fearne Cotton?

  And would you say the majority of that is just actually practice in practising your autonomy? I am choosing to think about, okay, there's a situation going on that I don't like, but I'm gonna choose when and when it is relevant or beneficial to think about it.

• 45:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, don't have arguments with those people in your head over and over again.

• 45:43Fearne Cotton?

  I don't sleep sometimes because of that. You know, that's where it goes, doesn't it?

• 45:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, we have got a choice. And I think if you put an hour a week to one side to notice how you're thinking, notice how that makes you feel, deciding what you want to do and practising that.

• 46:01Fearne Cotton?

  Hmm.

• 46:01Speaker 02

  It is a form of therapy.

• 46:04Fearne Cotton?

  Hmm.

• 46:04Speaker 02

  And you can do it with friends.

• 46:07Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 46:08Speaker 02

  You know, you don't have to have a qualified therapist to do it. It will help if you have my book, How to Stay Sane by Philippa Perry, because there are exercises that help you do self-therapy in that book.

• 46:21Fearne Cotton?

  Hmm.

• 46:23Speaker 02

  You know, that would help.

• 46:27Speaker 04

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• 46:58Speaker 02

  It's time.

• 47:00Speaker 07

  It's the most wonderful time of the year. Halloween.

• 47:06Speaker 08

  And you guys know, we don't do Halloween by halves. Full costume, full prosthetics, full commitment. I'm a rat. And I'm the chef. It's our Ratatouille special. Then we're grabbing our broomsticks for the witches.

• 47:19Speaker 08

  We've got a spooky hotline caller. An update from our woman who was in love with the ghost of Prince Albert. And your tarot card dilemmas. Listen to our Halloween specials, search for The Girl's Bathroom.

• 47:35Fearne Cotton?

  The one thing I know that therapy has helped me with is saying things to somebody that, you know, I went, I tried lots of different therapists over the years, but I found one that it just works and it clicks.

• 47:47Speaker 02

  You know, that is the work there. Is finding a therapist that works. I had three before I found one that really worked.

• 47:56Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, I mean, I think that sometimes puts people off, doesn't it? Like, oh, it just didn't work. I didn't gel with them.

• 48:00Speaker 02

  No, that relationship didn't work.

• 48:02Fearne Cotton?

  Hmm, I have found someone that, this person is just brilliant and obviously doesn't always say the things that I'm expecting or the things that I need to hear or want to hear, rather, I do need to hear them.

• 48:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, somebody who will challenge you nicely.

• 48:20Fearne Cotton?

  Challenge me, absolutely. That's been one of the game changers is the sort of challenging of my beliefs and, and one of those has been around shame and feeling immense shame about certain things, voicing these things, and then that shame dissipating really quickly.

• 48:37Speaker 02

  Isn't it great how talking about shame makes it go away?

• 48:41Fearne Cotton?

  It's mad.

• 48:41Speaker 02

  Shame really loves silence, really loves isolation.

• 48:46Fearne Cotton?

  Loves it, loves it. And often, you know, I was very lucky that when I talked about certain things, the therapist that I had, and you could do this with a friend, I think, that you really trust.

• 48:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 48:57Fearne Cotton?

  Is that they offer up something that they have felt ashamed about and you go, why are you ashamed about that? And it's all, the response is always, you know, you don't need to worry about that because we've built such a narrative.

• 49:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 49:09Fearne Cotton?

  In our heads about it. But I think if you, you know, it took me a long time to say certain things. If I, there's one example I feel happy talking about. When I was in my teens and twenties, I had bulimia. And I couldn't even say the word because I didn't identify with it. That, I didn't have that, that, it wasn't that. It was something a bit different to that. Or this was just, it wasn't a, you know, a big issue. It was just something that I did and whatever. And then I started to talk to a friend about it because she admitted to me that she had dealt with it. And actually, I can tell you who that friend is because she's talked about it on here, Bryony Gordon, and she had talked about losing a tooth because of it. And I was like. Oh my God. Okay. Well, I got receded gums. And then it was like, oh, this is all out in the open. This is not something I need to.

• 49:55Fearne Cotton?

  Hide and feel so awful about. And as soon as I started talking about it, I can talk about bulimia now without feeling any physical anything. Before I used to feel like.

• 50:03Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 50:04Fearne Cotton?

  Tense and small and stressed out. And now I feel like I'm just talking about walking down the road to get a loaf of bread. But that took me years and years. And it keeps people in the shadows on their own. It could be for a whole lifetime about certain subjects.

• 50:22Speaker 02

  Yeah. After working at the Samaritans for a number of years, shame is probably the number one thing that makes people want to disappear themselves. Because it's unbearable and they think they're unbearable and they think they're unacceptable. But talking about it and having someone on the end of the phone going, oh yeah, I can understand why that felt like a good coping mechanism. Or whatever it was. Yeah, well, that makes sense that you did that. That worked for you for a while. You know, if you just accept someone when they're in the throes of shame. And you can have shame about all sorts of things like, oh, I don't really belong here. I don't really belong.

• 51:01Speaker 02

  When I did this, you know, big psychotherapy week with my colleagues, a lot of us were going, oh, I'm not sure whether I belong.

• 51:11Speaker 02

  And that's what we worked on.

• 51:12Fearne Cotton?

  Mmm.

• 51:14Speaker 02

  And so interesting.

• 51:15Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 51:16Speaker 02

  That, you know, you can be an advanced psychotherapist and you can still think, do I really belong in this group of advanced psychotherapists?

• 51:25Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 51:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 51:26Fearne Cotton?

  I mean, I think that's always so brilliantly myth busting when you hear about people the top of their game who go, I don't feel good enough. I don't feel like I've made it. You know, it's not, and it's, it's not just for certain people. It's like, most people feel like this.

• 51:39Speaker 02

  Do I belong?

• 51:39Fearne Cotton?

  Do I belong? One of the interviews I love listening to recently was you being interviewed by Ryland.

• 51:46Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 51:47Fearne Cotton?

  I love Ryland.

• 51:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, he's so cute.

• 51:49Fearne Cotton?

  He's so great. And I just loved where the conversation went. And you talked about the first time that you had this sort of interaction with your husband Grayson, where before you'd had that belief of I'm not good enough, or

• 52:01Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 52:01Fearne Cotton?

  whatever, however you were feeling in your dynamics. And you'd spilled a bunch of coffee everywhere.

• 52:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 52:07Fearne Cotton?

  And that he was really sympathetic.

• 52:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 52:10Fearne Cotton?

  Towards you.

• 52:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, I was, I was not used to that. That was right. I dropped a tray of coffee, right? And I immediately thought, oh, I've got to clean this up really quickly before anybody notices. That was my reaction. And he's thinking, where's my coffee? Comes out and goes, oh, you poor thing. And I think, oh, no one's ever reacted like that before. Most people are saying, you klutz, you know? So someone to say, oh, you poor thing. Not that I minded somebody saying, you klutz, but this was really different.

• 52:42Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 52:42Speaker 02

  And I thought, oh, he's helping me clear it up. Oh, he's making a fresh batch of coffee. Oh, I like this. Get used to this. This is nice. Yeah, I, I don't think I'd had that before.

• 52:54Fearne Cotton?

  Hmm.

• 52:54Speaker 02

  Not in my previous relationships, not in my family of origin. So to have someone be nice to me when I, when I've done something daft, uh, yeah, I'll have more of that, please.

• 53:07Fearne Cotton?

  Did it take your brain a while to catch up to go, oh, and I deserve this?

• 53:11Speaker 02

  Oh, I never thought I deserved it. I always thought it was a lovely treat, but thank you for the suggestion. I'll try and take that on.

• 53:19Speaker 02

  I deserve it. No, I've never, never been a great one for deserving things. All in good time, phone. Give me a chance. I'm only 68. I'm nowhere near that 99 of finished yet.

• 53:31Fearne Cotton?

  We'll get there, we'll get there. How important, I was having a very interesting chat, literally two days ago with a friend. I, I'm obviously, with what I do with this podcast, really interested in psychology and psychotherapy and, and also looking at childhood. And my friend who I was talking to is not. So I was sort of almost quizzing them about pathologising certain traits or things that they feel were problems in their life. I am probably too quick to pathologise every, my every move in life or look at what happened in my childhood or whatever and try and make connections. And how important do you think that is? Is it for everybody?

• 54:10Speaker 02

  I think it's interesting to know where things come from, but that's all it is. It's not necessarily useful. And it's not enough just to know why something is. It's not enough to know that you're shy because you always got told off for showing off or something. That is not useful in and of itself. What is useful is doing something different. It's changing your behaviour. That's what's useful. Changing your thought pattern or changing what you actually do, that's what's useful. But to cling on to your childhood or indeed your diagnosis as an excuse

• 54:55Speaker 02

  isn't going to change anything for you. So these, these things are useful in order to take the next step.

• 55:04Fearne Cotton?

  Do you think everybody can change? Because some people will go, oh, I'm just like this. I'm just an anxious person.

• 55:10Speaker 02

  They probably get some comfort from it. They don't particularly want to change. It does take effort. Like, it does take practice. Changing a thought pattern is a bit like building some abs. You can't go to the gym, have one session and expect, you know, the toned body. You have to go three times a week for 45 minutes. And so it is with things like thought patterns. You have to practise. You have to practise noticing what they are. And deciding to change them.

• 55:43Fearne Cotton?

  Hmm.

• 55:44Speaker 02

  Or you can't change them, but observe them rather than be them, which is the first step to them shrinking.

• 55:50Fearne Cotton?

  It's quite humbling as well, isn't it? Because if you realise you've got to change, you've got to have a look at the things you know aren't working, which is not always fun. But it's essential if you want to feel better.

• 55:58Speaker 02

  And sometimes you quite like the things that aren't working, you know. I, um, have I given up alcohol? No, I have not. Am I going to give up alcohol? Not if my doctor lets me still, still have a little bit, thanks very much. But when, uh, if and when the doctor says you can't have any more alcohol, then I would stop.

• 56:19Fearne Cotton?

  Hmm.

• 56:20Speaker 02

  You know, I, I could stop, but I haven't stopped. And maybe it is a bad habit.

• 56:25Fearne Cotton?

  Hmm.

• 56:25Speaker 02

  But I really enjoy it.

• 56:27Fearne Cotton?

  Oh God, me too.

• 56:28Speaker 02

  Do you?

• 56:28Fearne Cotton?

  Oh yeah, I love a little drink. I had a period of sobriety, I don't even know why. Um, but it made me even more hermit-like, because I could, I've got the propensity to just stay at home. And actually, I love going out for dinner and having a couple of glasses of wine or a little cocktail and having a laugh and

• 56:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 56:45Fearne Cotton?

  having that balance and not beating myself up the next day and just feeling a bit shit and it being okay. That's been a bit of a readdress in my life recently of just like getting that balance back a bit and going, I just kind of want to have a bit of fun.

• 56:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think all or nothing things, polarisations, they're not always a good idea.

• 57:03Fearne Cotton?

  No, they're not.

• 57:03Speaker 02

  I think a little bit of what you fancy does you good.

• 57:07Fearne Cotton?

  I agree. I mean, we very often hear in many different ways that there is a mental health epidemic going on, that this is, or even the word crisis is used. A, I guess, would you agree? And B, what are your thoughts on that? Why do you think we're in this mess?

• 57:23Speaker 02

  Uh, I would agree and I wouldn't agree.

• 57:27Fearne Cotton?

  Okay.

• 57:28Speaker 02

  I think we've all got into phone addiction and we've all got into labels.

• 57:35Speaker 02

  And the trouble with a label is that it's a full stop. I can't help it, I've got bipolar. There you go. There's your label. And the full stop means that you stop exploring. You stop saying, how do I do this? You know, what are my triggers and what could I do to respond differently? You're not doing the work. You've just got the label and you're holding it up. And that isn't particularly helpful. It might make you feel better in the short term because it quietens the critical voice.

• 58:07Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 58:08Speaker 02

  But in the long term, it's, it's, you know, if you're behaving impulsively at the expense of your relationships, you're going to make your life difficult for yourself.

• 58:18Fearne Cotton?

  Hmm. Yeah. I mean, what is our way out of it? If there is such a thing at this point in time, when technology is kind of, you know, more prevalent than ever.

• 58:28Speaker 02

  It's to slow down. Hmm. Slow down and notice what's happening to you. Um, sounds easy. And also have a look at your screen time. And if it's, if it's more than an hour on social media, have a word with yourself.

• 58:44Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 58:44Speaker 02

  If it's more than an hour on games, have a word with yourself and pick up a book. Likeable by Fern Cock.

• 58:52Fearne Cotton?

  Any, any other books are available. Yeah, I mean, this is.

• 58:55Speaker 02

  By Philip Perry.

• 58:56Fearne Cotton?

  This is such, uh, it's so enjoyable. I think having, fiction is so great because it is just pure escapism and it's such a great chance to ditch your life for a bit.

• 59:04Speaker 02

  Put jokes in it.

• 59:05Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, it's really funny. It's funny and it's, you know, I'm not good with any dark subject matters, but you've managed to create a book that actually feels really jolly alongside quite a shit subject.

• 59:16Speaker 02

  Murder and jollity. Well, the thing is about a murder mystery book and there's, there's, you know, shrink solves murder. It does what it says on the tin there.

• 59:25Fearne Cotton?

  Correct.

• 59:26Speaker 02

  The thing is about a murder mystery book is that it takes a very complex, terrible, the worst thing that can possibly happen problem and ties it up in a neat bow.

• 59:35Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 59:36Speaker 02

  And there's a beginning, a middle and an end. And wouldn't it be lovely if life was like that?

• 59:40Fearne Cotton?

  Wouldn't it just?

• 59:41Speaker 02

  But we never know the ending. We never know what's going to happen.

• 59:44Fearne Cotton?

  No, and that's why I guess hope's important. Got to be hopeful, otherwise.

• 59:48Speaker 02

  Who is this hope?

• 59:50Fearne Cotton?

  I don't know, but I really like the sound of them. But we've got to have hope. We've got to have a bit of hope.

• 59:54Speaker 02

  I, I, I am hopeful. I can't help it.

• 59:58Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 59:59Speaker 02

  I could, I could do some work on that and become more pessimistic, but.

• 1:00:03Fearne Cotton?

  Like Pat.

• 1:00:04Speaker 02

  But, you know. It's working for me.

• 1:00:06Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, I think I I'm I'm naturally hopeful, but I do keep it in mind. I think it's so important because when you're in a shit time, if it's not there, you're just like, what's the point? What's the point? You've got to have a bit of hope.

• 1:00:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, and all things pass. This too will pass.

• 1:00:23Fearne Cotton?

  This too will pass. God, that's an important one.

• 1:00:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, this too will pass and perhaps I can make friends.

• 1:00:29Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:30Speaker 02

  Perhaps I could join the local

• 1:00:32Fearne Cotton?

  Pottery Club.

• 1:00:34Speaker 02

  Local community pottery throwing class.

• 1:00:36Fearne Cotton?

  I love it.

• 1:00:37Speaker 02

  Meet Phil, she's there.

• 1:00:40Fearne Cotton?

  Before we send you back to pottery.

• 1:00:42Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:00:43Fearne Cotton?

  There are a couple of things. First thing is, we are compiling a playlist of music.

• 1:00:47Speaker 02

  Ooh.

• 1:00:48Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:49Speaker 02

  Nobody warned me about this.

• 1:00:50Fearne Cotton?

  No, we like to keep it spontaneous.

• 1:00:52Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:00:53Fearne Cotton?

  If you were to put one song on there that makes you feel great, what would that song be?

• 1:00:56Speaker 02

  Well, you talked about hope. I've just done a podcast with Neil Brand called All About The Music, which I really enjoyed. I can only think of the songs that I I put on there, but Someday He'll Come Along, The Man I Love by Ella Fitzgerald.

• 1:01:12Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, I love Ella.

• 1:01:13Speaker 02

  Can you sing that for me?

• 1:01:14Fearne Cotton?

  Definitely not, but I'll put it on the playlist.

• 1:01:17Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:01:19Speaker 02

  You can cut this bit. Hang on.

• 1:01:21Fearne Cotton?

  Okay.

• 1:01:21Speaker 02

  Let's see if I can do it. I haven't warmed up.

• 1:01:23Fearne Cotton?

  No, no.

• 1:01:24Speaker 02

  Someday he'll come along, the man I love. And he'll be big and strong, the man I love. Anyway, it goes on like that.

• 1:01:39Fearne Cotton?

  Yes.

• 1:01:40Speaker 02

  Anyway, Ella does it better, believe me.

• 1:01:42Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, I love you in this song.

• 1:01:44Speaker 02

  Anyway, I hope you can edit that out.

• 1:01:46Fearne Cotton?

  No, we're keeping that right here.

• 1:01:47Speaker 02

  Oh, no.

• 1:01:47Fearne Cotton?

  And, Philippa Perry, where is your happy place?

• 1:01:51Speaker 02

  Oh, where? Oh, my God, I'm sorry to say, but the first thing that came up into my head when you said that was bed.

• 1:01:58Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:58Speaker 02

  Bed.

• 1:01:59Fearne Cotton?

  Bed's the best.

• 1:02:00Speaker 02

  Oh, bed. Oh, clean sheets. Oh, bed, clean pyjamas, clean sheets, freshly washed hair. Oh.

• 1:02:08Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, I love it.

• 1:02:10Speaker 02

  And a really big bed, right? I want to do star shapes without touching anybody else, and that includes you, Kat.

• 1:02:16Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, Kat and Grayson better be another postcode over there.

• 1:02:18Speaker 02

  Okay, exactly.

• 1:02:19Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, I love that. Yeah, bed is.

• 1:02:21Speaker 02

  Bed. Absolutely love my bed.

• 1:02:24Fearne Cotton?

  Me too.

• 1:02:25Speaker 02

  I love getting into it, not that keen on getting out, which is a good preparation for death, isn't it?

• 1:02:33Fearne Cotton?

  Talking of hope. Well, I've loved talking to you today. I so enjoyed this book.

• 1:02:38Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 1:02:40Fearne Cotton?

  It came at the perfect time. I was just needed a good bit of escapism and a really jolly good story and I loved it.

• 1:02:46Speaker 02

  Thank you, Fern. That's so kind. Thank you.

• 1:02:48Fearne Cotton?

  And look, we've had you on, we've had Florence on, we now need your husband on.

• 1:02:52Speaker 02

  You better get Grayson on, yeah.

• 1:02:53Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, next on the list.

• 1:02:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:02:55Fearne Cotton?

  Thank you, Philippa.

• 1:02:56Speaker 02

  Thank you, Fern.

• 1:02:58Fearne Cotton?

  I loved that, for all the reasons that I hope you loved it. But one of them, because I got to luckily sit in a room with Philippa at the Happy Place Studios, is that I felt so calm afterwards. You know, after that moment where Philippa was like, "And just have like, and breathe." And I was like, "Oh my god, yeah, I'm really not breathing properly." You know, I think when I'm in the middle of a podcast, I'm so focused on like, "What am I saying next? What are they saying? What have I just picked up on? Where's this going next?" That I sort of forget to breathe. So I'm now feeling like 80% more chilled than I was before. She's just a wonderful person to spend time with and hopefully is now moulding a big lump of clay on a wheel. Is that the right terminology? Anyway, I love Philippa.

• 1:03:43Fearne Cotton?

  And Philippa's novel, Shrink Solves Murder, is available from the 7th of May. If you want just a really good bit of like, I was about to say cosy murder, I don't think that's a thing, cosy crime, it really is. I don't like dark subject matters, but she manages to make it, as I said, like jolly and brilliant and mysterious. Well, I really hope that you haven't got too many plans later in the week because I'm going to be back with another huge guest in just a few days' time. We're going to be carrying on with that line of thought about menopause and giving fewer fucks as we age, which is really important. It's going to be a good one that you're going to love. In the meantime, a huge thank you again to Philippa, to the producer, Anushka Tate, at Happy Place Studios, and to you, I love ya.

• 1:04:55Speaker 09

  Hello, this is Susie Ruffel. And Maisie Adams. And together we host Big Kick Energy. Hey Mais, what is it? Only the best podcast ever. Yes! A comedy entertainment podcast with a focus on all things women's football, all things hilarious, all things friendship. It's a laugh is what it is, Ruffel. Yeah, and a fair bit of gossiping too. Oh, and a lovely bit of gossip. Chow down on the gossip. Nom nom nom nom nom. You can listen wherever you get your podcasts. Just need to search Big Kick Energy. Grab a knife and fork and tuck in, baby.