Pod Insights Serial Killers & Murderous Minds The Bloody Baron: Gilles de Rais 2 About this episode During the 1400s, Gilles de Rais terrorized his lands, kidnapping and murdering children as he pleased. But when he stopped being useful to his lords, this medieval serial killer's crimes were finally exposed -- but the question is, would anyone care enough to stop him from murdering again? Mind of a Serial Killer is a Crime House Original. Follow us on Instagram and TikTok @crimehouse for more true crime content.
Transcript Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:01 Vanessa Richardson? Hi, everyone. Before today's episode, there's another show I want to tell you about. It's called What the Fact with Connor Tomlinson from Netflix's Love on the Spectrum and Carter Roy. Every week, they take three unbelievable true facts from history and tell you the full story behind them. Plus, Connor's infectious energy that'll make you realize history is the most fascinating thing on earth. Follow What the Fact wherever you listen, or subscribe on YouTube at What the Fact Pod.
0:36 Speaker 01 This is Crime House.
0:43 Vanessa Richardson? Faith is a force of good in the lives of so many people. It can be a powerful motivator, a higher calling to pursue justice, live virtuously, and care for our neighbors. But in the wrong hands, faith can be dangerous, because the things we believe don't just affect how we pray or the rituals we follow. They make us who we are. And for the truly twisted, faith can justify the most diabolical sins imaginable.
1:29 Vanessa Richardson? The human mind is fascinating. It controls how we think, how we feel, how we love, and how we hate. And sometimes, the mind drives us to do something truly unspeakable. When that happens, people wonder, how could someone do such a thing? Well, on this show, that's what we're going to try and answer. This is Mind of a Serial Killer, a Crime House original. Every Monday, we'll be taking deep dives into the minds of history's most notorious serial killers and violent offenders. At Crime House, we want to express our gratitude to you, our community, for making this possible. Please support.
2:10 Vanessa Richardson? ...us by rating, reviewing, and following Mind of a Serial Killer wherever you get your podcasts. Your feedback truly matters. And for ad-free and early access to Mind of a Serial Killer, plus exciting bonus content, subscribe to Crime House Plus on Apple Podcasts. I'm Vanessa Richardson.
2:30 Tristin Engels? And I'm Dr. Tristin Engels. As Vanessa takes you through our subject stories, I'll be helping her dive into these killers' minds as we try to understand how someone can do such horrible things.
2:42 Vanessa Richardson? Before we get into the story, you should know it contains descriptions of murder and the sexual abuse of children. Listener discretion is advised. This is the second of two episodes on Gilles de Rais, a medieval baron and serial killer who sexually assaulted, tortured, and murdered over 140 children at his castles across western France and Brittany. Last week, we examined his transformation from a young knight and military hero to an unhinged, bloodthirsty aristocrat who routinely kidnapped, assaulted, and murdered children without restraint. Today, we'll discuss his experiments with human sacrifice,
3:27 Vanessa Richardson? his battle with the Catholic Church, and his public downfall. And as always, we'll be asking the question, what makes a serial killer?
3:45 Vanessa Richardson? In our last episode, we discussed how Gilles de Rais' uniquely privileged upbringing contributed to a lack of personal boundaries and feelings of superiority. From what we know about Gilles de Rais, after becoming a war hero in the French Army, he indulged his violent appetites by preying on children from local communities. But it was his rampant overspending that eventually got him into trouble.
4:12 Tristin Engels? Let's talk a little bit about the psychology of impulse control. I touched on this in the first episode when we were discussing the frontal lobe and how prolonged exposure to trauma and stress on a minor's brain can cause this area to become underdeveloped. This area of the brain is responsible for executive functioning, and part of that includes impulse control. In Gilles's case, I think it's a combination of this and pathology in general. The spending habits, the unrelenting spending, can be better explained by his need to fuel his grandiosity and superiority over others, and the lust for violence and murder are
4:56 Tristin Engels? a combination of an underdeveloped frontal lobe as well as environmental factors such as that era and how he was raised, bringing us back yet again to that nature versus nurture debate.
5:11 Vanessa Richardson? Well, if you remember from last week's episode, Gilles funded his extravagant lifestyle by selling various estates, most of which had been in his family for generations. Eventually, his relatives became worried that he would bankrupt the family and drive their name into the mud. They appealed to the French king, Charles VII, who issued a royal edict forbidding Gilles from selling any more land. It was a major blow to Gilles's pride, not to mention his financial freedom, but he wasn't completely out of options because even though Gilles was a member of the French court, several of his properties were in the nearby Kingdom of Brittany. That's the region that today makes up France's northwestern peninsula, but at the time
5:56 Vanessa Richardson? it was an independent duchy, a sovereign kingdom ruled by a duke. Gilles de Rais and the Duke of Brittany went way back. Gilles's grandfather, Jean de Creon, had been one of the duke's major allies. In fact, Gilles's first battle when he was about 16 was fought in support of the duke. That relationship came in handy now. While Gilles was restricted from selling his French properties, he could still offload the ones in Brittany. Gilles and the duke even had a special agreement that Gilles could buy back any property he sold within six years.
6:34 Vanessa Richardson? This allowed Gilles to keep the money flowing for a time, but it wasn't enough to maintain the lifestyle he was accustomed to. And when we last left off, Gilles de Rais was trying to use the forbidden art of alchemy to rebuild his fortune.
6:51 Vanessa Richardson? In 1439, 34-year-old Gilles de Rais met a young Italian named François Prilati, who claimed to be an alchemist. François said that he could help Gilles turn lead into gold, which would allow him to continue his life of excess and luxury unabated. Gilles was excited to get started, but there was a catch. François told him that alchemy required satanic power. First, they would need to summon a demon by offering it the heart, eyes, and genitals of a child. Gilles was all too happy to provide the ingredients, but there was one other thing the alchemists needed.
7:35 Vanessa Richardson? Prilati wanted him to offer the demon his everlasting soul. And for once, Gilles refused. After all the evil things he'd done, this was the line he refused to cross.
7:50 Tristin Engels? That might seem very contradictory, given just how depraved his actions are, how sadistic and narcissistic he's proven to be. But there have been many serial killers who had religious beliefs or religious-based delusions that they alleged were part of their motive for killing. So notably, Ted Bundy hid behind his faith and his education in order to be a chameleon. Son of Sam and Charles Manson used religion to justify their actions. In the case of Gilles, I think his refusal to sell his soul to the devil is more likely than not because based on his belief system, that would mean he would lose his power. As it stands, he needs to be the one in charge in doing the torturing.
8:35 Tristin Engels? He's not going to want to relinquish that power and agency.
8:40 Vanessa Richardson? So ultimately, the baron and his alchemist found a compromise. Gilles could keep his soul as long as he wasn't in the room when François summoned the demon. The men agreed, and Gilles got to work securing the ingredients. Gilles abducted a young peasant boy, taking him to one of his castles. After murdering the child, he harvested the organs and delivered them to François, who went into a chamber to summon the demon alone. Gilles and one of his friends listened through the door as the alchemist started the ritual. Everything seemed to go off without a hitch as François chanted his incantations.
9:20 Vanessa Richardson? Then Gilles heard a loud crash, as if someone was being violently thrown around the room. He ripped open the door, and François came stumbling out, bruised and barely able to walk. He said that rather than providing gold, the demon had become angry and attacked him. Gilles was disappointed by the results, but never doubted the alchemist's honesty. He was now convinced more than ever that sorcery was the answer to his troubles. As Gilles saw it, a demon could do more than just make him rich.
9:56 Vanessa Richardson? It could protect him, spy on his enemies, and make him one of the most powerful men in Europe. Over the next few months, he had François summon the demon again and again. These attempts required more human sacrifices, and Gilles continued to rely on his cronies to bring him a steady stream of young victims. They plucked children from the roads and surrounding villages, often by promising them jobs, food, or money to get them to Gilles's castles. The children's parents were devastated when they didn't return, but there was no system in place to help them seek justice or figure out what had happened.
10:40 Vanessa Richardson? Meanwhile, François was well compensated, becoming an increasingly important member of Gilles's inner circle. He kept his master on the hook with gifts and wild stories. At one point, he gave Gilles a stone pendant covered in black powder, claiming that it was a gift from Satan. After one of his attempts at alchemy, he said the demon appeared as a massive snake, coiled around a pile of gold coins. He fled the room in terror. And when he returned with Gilles, there was only dust where the treasure had been. Unsurprisingly, Gilles never recouped any money from these experiments, but he didn't lose faith.
11:25 Tristin Engels? It's kind of ironic that he was using the promise of jobs, food, and money to lure victims to his castle. And François is using the same sort of tactics to keep him interested in his services, to keep fueling his ego. It's really interesting. But I think that someone like Gilles would be an easy mark for a con man like François, because he's appeasing to his lust for power and wealth. He's serving his ego's syntonic fantasies and giving him gifts that he asserts were from Satan. It makes me wonder, like, did he know already what he was doing? And how did he know to appease to that side of him?
12:08 Vanessa Richardson? It feels so transparent. I mean, it's kind of obvious that François probably just banged himself around in the room, so he looked injured, and Gilles fell for it. Why wouldn't he see through that?
12:18 Tristin Engels? Yeah, I know. This is a ruse. It's hard to say for sure. But my hunch would be that his ego wouldn't let him. It didn't fit within the self-image he had been carefully crafting and strongly believed. If at any point he suspected that it was a ruse, it would put him in a state of cognitive dissonance. And that's when a person holds two contradictory beliefs. So in this case, it's Gilles' belief that he is so superior that Satan himself would want to help him and give him gifts. Or, on the contradictory side, he's flawed enough that he would fall for such a scam during desperate times. So with his ego, there's no way he would choose to believe the latter. So in order to get rid of that discomfort
13:03 Tristin Engels? that that contradictory belief would bring, he's going to staunchly believe in the ruse.
13:10 Vanessa Richardson? After several failed attempts at raising the demon, Gilles was no closer to recovering his lost fortune. He became despondent, and the only thing that seemed to improve his mood was more violence. He threw himself into his murders with renewed vigor, abducting several boys throughout the fall of 1439, the same year he met François. By November, even some members of his inner circle couldn't stomach the violence any longer. That month, a priest in Gilles's entourage left the group, fleeing to a nearby inn. While he was hiding out there, he overheard the innkeeper talking about the recent spree of child abductions
13:53 Vanessa Richardson? and was stunned to discover that the baron's involvement was considered an open secret. Even worse, it was also widely known that Gilles dabbled in dark magic and experimented with human sacrifice. One rumor stated that he was using children's blood as ink in the creation of a book of spells. And while this wasn't entirely accurate, it was close enough to the truth. The word was out, and while the local peasants were powerless to stop Gilles, they weren't the only ones he had to worry about. By embracing satanic rituals and black magic, he had unwittingly set himself against a new enemy,
14:36 Vanessa Richardson? more powerful than any he'd faced before.
14:48 Vanessa Richardson? By the beginning of December 1439, 35-year-old Gilles de Rais learned that a priest in his personal entourage had abandoned him. He immediately flew into a rage and sent one of his servants out with orders to retrieve his traitorous friend.
15:05 Tristin Engels? Another very defensive response to a narcissistic injury.
15:10 Vanessa Richardson? Mm-hmm. Well, the servant tracked the priest to the inn where he was staying, but he refused to come back. He'd overheard the locals whispering about what went on in the castles of Gilles de Rais. The baron's crimes were now an open secret, which meant it was only a matter of time before the rumors reached more powerful ears, whether they belonged to the king, the church, or the royal court. The servant returned empty-handed and told his master what he'd learned. Gilles responded by throwing him into the dungeons. Losing a close friend and finding out about the rumors had put him in a dark mood.
15:50 Vanessa Richardson? So to cheer himself up, he went on a killing spree. A few weeks before Christmas of 1439, two young brothers went out begging for alms and never returned. Then, on Christmas Day, two more boys disappeared while buying bread at the local market. In both instances, members of Gilles' entourage were near the areas where the children were last seen. When the parents learned this, they feared the worst.
16:23 Tristin Engels? We've seen another narcissistic injury occur here in his reaction to the fact that he found out that somebody in his personal entourage had abandoned him. And his reaction was to not just get into a rage and seek revenge, but to continue on this unrelenting killing spree. And maybe, in this case, increasing in frequency. Is that common for serial killers? And the answer is, in a sense, yes. There is something called the frustration-aggression hypothesis, or theory, in which compounding frustrations that aren't appropriately dealt with can lead to aggressive behavior. Now, this was looked at in criminology with regard to hate crimes.
17:06 Tristin Engels? And it was found that when frustration accumulates, like a financial crisis, which we're seeing right now happening for Gilles, frustrated individuals may displace their aggression on a convenient social target. So in this case, for Gilles, that's young children. Children who are desperate, children who are seeking help, children who are commoners and beneath him in a classist society. I think it goes beyond that, though. It's the fact that thus far Gilles has not had to play by anyone's rules before. His wealth and power bought him loyalty. No one was accountable for him, and now that loyalty is called into question on a micro and macro level. This is his reaction to that.
17:49 Vanessa Richardson? And horrifyingly, by this point, Gilles had been actively abducting and murdering minors for over eight years. But his crimes now reached a tipping point. Between January and May of 1440, at least six young boys and young teens vanished from the communities around his estates. At the same time, his financial situation was only getting worse. His attempts at harnessing alchemical power had been a massive failure and another huge expense. He'd already sold his most valuable properties in Brittany and was more desperate than ever to refill his coffers. This time, he decided to try a more straightforward tactic, one that he'd learned from his grandfather
18:34 Vanessa Richardson? and that had served him well when he was younger. He was going to capture a neighboring estate along with all of its valuables and use his superior wealth and power to bully anyone who challenged him into silence. He set his sights on a castle near the town of Saint-Étienne. The estate had once belonged to him. He'd sold it a few years earlier for some quick cash, and it was currently occupied by a well-connected priest named Jean de Ferron. But Gilles still thought of the castle as "his" property, and he saw no reason why he shouldn't have it back. On May 15, 1440, he led a force of 60 men onto the estate at Saint-Étienne.
19:19 Vanessa Richardson? They entered the church while Ferron was celebrating Mass. Gilles rushed the priest with a double-headed axe, screaming that Ferron had better come out of the church or be killed on the spot. Ferron was terrified and immediately surrendered the castle. Gilles had the priest put in chains and locked in the dungeons.
19:40 Tristin Engels? Gilles has demonstrated a very consistent pattern of entitlement, and this level of entitlement is very pathological. Given that he appears to meet the criteria for narcissistic personality disorder, but a malignant narcissist with psychopathic traits. He has had repeated narcissistic injuries, and most narcissists will respond with hostility, but he's responding with absolute vengeance.
20:10 Tristin Engels? If we look at this from a Freudian perspective, Gilles is lacking a superego, which is what regulates normal moral functioning, and has purely operated on his pleasure principle, the id, which seeks immediate gratification of all needs, wants, and urges. I think that Gilles truly does believe that he is entitled to whatever he wants at any means necessary. I think that Gilles has established a strong pattern of poor self-control and poor judgment for the reasons that we've talked about already earlier in the episode, but he is on the precipice of losing everything, which includes his nobility status and being executed for his crimes.
20:55 Tristin Engels? I don't think that he could psychologically survive that injury to his ego.
21:01 Vanessa Richardson? Attacking Jean de Ferron at Saint-Étienne was a reckless move, even for Gilles de Rais. Aside from being a member of the clergy, Ferron was also the brother of the Duke of Brittany's royal treasurer. By taking the priest hostage, Gilles jeopardized one of the few alliances he had left. Gilles hoped that the Duke of Brittany would overlook the attack on Saint-Étienne, but he had seriously overplayed his hand. The duke responded by fining him the immense sum of 50,000 gold crowns. Gilles was already hard up for funds, so instead of paying, he fled to another castle at the border of France and Brittany,
21:44 Vanessa Richardson? taking the captured priest with him. For the Duke of Brittany, this was the last straw. He reported the attack on Saint-Étienne to the Bishop of Nantes, a powerful church leader who led the diocese where the assault took place. The bishop was incensed by the attack on one of his priests and immediately launched a secret investigation. He sent agents out into the area around Gilles's estates with instructions to question the locals and dig up whatever dirt they could. When they returned, the bishop was stunned. He'd been looking for evidence to support charges of heresy and sacrilege, but what he got was darker than anything he could have expected.
22:29 Tristin Engels? The fact that Gilles has been consistently acting without regard for consequences from a very young age indicates that in today's age, he would meet criteria for antisocial personality disorder. But I think it goes beyond that. We're talking more psychopathy here. If consequences were a deterrent for someone like Gilles, he wouldn't have been doing a fraction of the things that he has done. But also, at this point, no one had really enforced any consequences. And it makes you wonder if he has had any real idea of what that would look like and what the reality of those consequences would be. Until this point, he had been living in his own fantasy, where he was always in charge.
23:14 Tristin Engels? He was the feared one. He was the revered one. I don't think he stopped to consider what he would fear, nor do I think he was really capable of that.
23:25 Vanessa Richardson? Well, as the bishop conducted his investigation, Gilles and his friends continued their crimes as they liked. On their way back from raiding Sainte-Étienne, they stopped in a small town to murder a 10-year-old boy. Since they didn't have access to private furnaces, his men threw the body in a nearby latrine. It seems that around this time, Gilles started to get anxious that his attack on the castle had permanently ruined his relations with the Duke of Brittany. He stopped in an open field and tried once again to summon his demon, executing three children as sacrifice. This time, he wasn't after gold, but secrets.
24:09 Vanessa Richardson? He had his alchemist François Prilati ask the demon if the duke had turned against him. Supposedly, the alchemist relayed that Gilles had nothing to worry about. In reality, nothing could have been further from the truth. At that moment, the Bishop of Nantes and the Duke of Brittany were hard at work collecting testimony, preparing indictments, and generally plotting the baron's downfall.
24:36 Vanessa Richardson? Gilles de Rais had dodged consequences like these his entire life. But they were finally catching up with him.
24:54 Vanessa Richardson? On July 29, 1440, two and a half months after 36-year-old Gilles de Rais attacked the castle in Saint-Étienne, the Bishop of Nantes published a public report accusing Gilles of a shocking list of crimes. They included heresy, sodomy, murder, and invoking demons. Stunningly, when Gilles heard about the accusations, he was unfazed. He reasoned that the bishop's report was based entirely on rumor. None of the commoners questioned by the bishop's inquisition had any firsthand knowledge of his crimes. No bodies or other evidence had been recovered, and his alchemist, François Prilati, had
25:39 Vanessa Richardson? promised Gilles via demon that there was nothing to worry about. In short, it was Gilles' word against a handful of peasants. He was confident that he would come out unscathed, just as he had his entire life.
25:55 Tristin Engels? This highlights the systemic issues of classism in general. By virtue of his nobility status, his wealth, he has been raised to believe that peasants are beneath him, they are property. He's been treating the children of the villages as property, taking them when he wants, doing to them what he wants. And so, of course, he's hedging his bets that their inferiority will work in his favor when it comes to his crimes. He will use his privilege to his advantage at whatever cost.
26:24 Vanessa Richardson? While Gilles was confident that he could beat the charges against him, not all of his friends agreed. Two of his cousins sensed that the group's days were numbered. They fled his castle in Brittany and were never heard from again. For the most part, though, Gilles' entourage stayed by his side. They waited for two weeks, praying that nothing came of the bishop's report. Then on September 15, 1440, a company of soldiers loyal to the Duke of Brittany arrived outside the castle gates with orders to take the baron and his friends into custody.
27:04 Vanessa Richardson? Gilles didn't resist the arrest. This fact alone suggests that he didn't appreciate the gravity of the situation. He was an experienced military commander with his own soldiers, ready to fight for him. If he'd fought back, he could have fled across the border into France, beyond the duke's jurisdiction. But he didn't. At this point Gilles probably believed that he was only being prosecuted for the attack on Saint-Étienne. And when he arrived at Nantes, this seemed to be confirmed. On September 19th, four days after his arrest, the ecclesiastical court, which was run by the church, charged him with heresy for attacking a priest.
27:47 Vanessa Richardson? But there was no mention of the other horrific crimes mentioned in the bishop's scathing report. Gilles breathed easy, confident that he would soon walk free. But, things were just getting started. While the ecclesiastical trial was going on, a second civil trial had been proceeding in secret. This one was overseen by the chief judge of Brittany and would focus on the rampant rumors of child murder and human sacrifice. For several days, the judge heard from the parents of missing children, many of whom were last seen in the company of Gilles' men.
28:28 Vanessa Richardson? He also questioned Gilles' companions, after subjecting them to torture to ensure their compliance. One of the men who broke first was Poitou, the valet who'd been working for Gilles since he was 10 years old. Poitou described the traumatic sexual assault that began their relationship, and then went on to describe the baron's prolific murder spree.
28:55 Vanessa Richardson? Tragically, Poitou admitted to playing a significant role in many of the crimes. He was especially useful at luring children to the barons' castles, no doubt because he'd been in their positions once before. He executed some of the victims himself, and was routinely tasked with disposing of their bodies.
29:16 Tristin Engels? I want to make a very important point here. It is a myth that all abused people abuse people. There are millions of sexual abuse survivors who would never harm another person and never have. So that being said, correlation is not causation, but there is a correlation there because depending on when the abuse began, and certainly on a case-by-case basis, abuse can become a learned behavior through things like grooming or survival. I think in this case, it seems more like a method of survival for Poitou. He was 10 when he was a victim,
29:58 Tristin Engels? and he saw everything that Gilles was capable of. It doesn't excuse the fact that he participated in this, but it does explain it.
30:10 Vanessa Richardson? While Poitou was being tortured, Gilles still had no idea how serious his situation had become. Finally, on October 8th, 1440, a little less than a month after he was arrested, he was called to stand before the civil court. Gilles listened in horror as the prosecution laid out the charges. The indictment accused him of murdering, torturing, and sexually assaulting over 140 boys and girls. It also described his attempts to summon demons and his crimes against the Catholic Church. When asked to respond, Gilles exploded with fury, ranting that he would rather be hung by the neck
30:54 Vanessa Richardson? than listen to such baseless charges.
30:58 Vanessa Richardson? After four failed attempts to get him to enter a formal plea, the judge was fed up. On his request, the Bishop of Nantes stepped in and excommunicated Gilles de Rais on the spot. For Gilles, this possibly was a fate worse than death. Being excommunicated meant that he was officially severed from the Catholic Church and could not receive communion or a Catholic funeral. And it suggested that his soul was in danger of eternal damnation.
31:42 Vanessa Richardson? The day after his outburst in court, Gilles de Rais appeared before the judge and tearfully apologized for his behavior, admitting that he was guilty of the countless murders. The apology worked. The Bishop of Nantes decided that Gilles had shown sincere remorse and lifted the excommunication. But the trial wasn't quite over yet. The judge wanted a confession of everything, including the human sacrifice and demon summoning. Gilles resisted until he was threatened with torture. He had inflicted plenty of pain and torment on his victims over the years,
32:24 Vanessa Richardson? but was terrified of being left alone with the Inquisition's interrogators. He confessed to everything, first in a private meeting with the chief judge, then before the whole court.
32:39 Tristin Engels? It seems like a shocking juxtaposition, going from being fine with torturing others to the degree that he did. Also, I think it's important to note that anybody in the position of torture is going to likely struggle with that. And we have this biological need to fight for survival. And part of that survival is to do what it takes to ensure we're safe. So anybody in that position, a majority of them, if not 90% or more, would likely say, I don't want to be tortured. To do what it takes to avoid that.
33:14 Vanessa Richardson? After Gilles' confession, the civil court quickly found him guilty and sentenced him to death. His execution was carried out mere days after the trial, on October 26, 1440. The baron spent several minutes addressing the sizable crowd. By most accounts, he was the portrait of a repentant man, repeating that he was guilty of everything he'd been accused of. He even begged the parents in the crowd to be strict with their children lest they turn out like him. Finally, Gilles climbed onto the platform, which was set aflame as a noose was tied around his neck.
33:57 Vanessa Richardson? This unusual combination of execution forms was notable. Noblemen were typically put to death by beheading, which was considered the most honorable and painless method of capital punishment. Gilles de Rais was denied that option in favor of hanging, the most common form of execution. But he was also burned, which was typically reserved for heretics, witches, and sodomites. Despite the pageantry, it seems that he died quickly, before the fire could cause him any pain. His body was quickly taken down so that it could be buried in a Catholic church Gilles had personally selected.
34:39 Vanessa Richardson? Despite everything he'd done in the eyes of the church, Gilles still had a chance for salvation in death. His execution was immediately followed by two others, Poitou and another servant who helped Gilles dispose of the bodies. They both received identical sentences as their master. Less care was taken in their hangings, though, and their bodies were significantly burned before they died.
35:08 Vanessa Richardson? Even while being executed, Gilles had managed to get special treatment.
35:13 Tristin Engels? So I think we can all agree that, given what we know about Gilles and what he was being tried with, that he was not deserving of any kind of special treatment. Even when he was trying to convince the judge that he was remorseful of his crimes and was successful in not being excommunicated, that expression of remorse was very superficial. It was not genuine in any means. It was a last ditch effort to avoid additional consequences and to also maintain the reputation he had. However, I want to do some myth busting here when it comes to narcissism and individuals who are diagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder.
35:55 Tristin Engels? When we're talking about this, in this case, the case of Gilles, we're talking about somebody who is a malignant narcissist and a psychopath. That is very, very severe on all counts. When it comes to most individuals with narcissistic personality disorder, it is a spectrum. So I have seen, in my professional experience, that there are some individuals on the spectrum of narcissistic personality disorder who can show remorse and humility, who do have aspects of recovery. So I want to just make sure that we bust the myth that all narcissists are bad, or all narcissists are to the degree of Gilles, and that's just not accurate. The case of Gilles is very severe.
36:39 Tristin Engels? And a lot of individuals I've assessed in my practice, when I'm working in corrections or in the courts, who are on trial for crimes and meet the criteria for narcissistic personality disorder are more so on that severe side of things. So when I see people who fit the criteria for this on an outpatient basis with no criminal history, they're on a very mild spectrum of that condition, and I have seen that there has been opportunity for recovery.
37:10 Vanessa Richardson? One little interesting aspect I wanted to just bring up is his fear of being excommunicated. I feel like that reverence for God and that worry about the afterlife, it's sort of like juxtaposition. It sort of doesn't make sense.
37:22 Tristin Engels? Yeah, it certainly seems that way. But when you really break down who he is and what he's really afraid of, he's afraid of losing control and he's afraid of being viewed in a certain way. And when it comes to higher power, whatever that belief system is, and in his case, he's in the Catholic Church, so he's believing in God. If God is not willing to forgive, or if he is not in his good graces, then what control does he have over what happens to him next? He has absolutely none. So it makes sense to me that he still holds some sort of faith in that way, but it's, again, it's self-serving. It's only for his benefit.
38:06 Vanessa Richardson? Well, long after his death, Gilles de Rais has a complicated legacy. He's often cited as the inspiration for the French fairy tale, Bluebeard, written two and a half centuries later in 1697. The story features a powerful nobleman who murders his wives and hides their bodies in an underground chamber beneath his castle. The connection between the fictional Bluebeard and Gilles de Rais is tenuous, though. They have little in common besides both being noblemen and serial killers. And even that designation isn't an accepted fact anymore. In recent decades, revisionist historians have gained
38:46 Vanessa Richardson? traction online by defending Gilles de Rais, painting him as the victim of a politically motivated hit squad. They argue that his confession and those of his companions are untrustworthy, since they were taken under threat of torture and excommunication. Which is true, but it doesn't account for the missing children or the parents who came forward to accuse him. Many historians still agree that Gilles de Rais was a prolific, terrifying serial killer. The strangest part of his story is that the person who committed those crimes was also a man of faith. Gilles de Rais cared about going to heaven. He proved it when he refused
39:30 Vanessa Richardson? to use his soul as a bartering chip to summon demons. He showed it again when he confessed to avoid excommunication. He also fought bravely alongside Joan of Arc and poured money into the creation of a magnificent chapel. But at the same time, he committed countless atrocities that violated the most sacred laws of the religion he professed to follow. It's difficult to imagine how he made sense of this contradiction in his mind. Most people with Gilles' faith would probably assume his soul was beyond saving, but he clearly didn't see it that way.
40:08 Tristin Engels? No, and we've touched on it a little bit already as to why that might be, but this kind of goes back again to that egocentric fantasy and the cognitive dissonance between those two contradicting beliefs. He either is going to be in favor with God, which, again, that says a whole lot about him as a person and his self-worth, or he's not. And the alternative doesn't fit into his egocentonic views. So he's going to staunchly believe what does, even if what he does is in contrast entirely to that belief system.
40:48 Vanessa Richardson? How Gilles de Rais reconciled his crimes and his faith may always be a mystery. What's clear is that the human mind is capable of great contradictions, and that sometimes they can lead us to terrifying places. Ultimately, I think we can safely say that Gilles believed in himself more than anything. For years, he thought he could get away with murder, and when he was finally held accountable, he believed that he could still prevail by ascending to heaven. His faith in his own superiority drove him to cross one legal and ethical boundary after another while justifying every dark impulse. Meanwhile,
41:32 Vanessa Richardson? his incredible wealth protected him long after he should have been caught. As long as he preyed on the weak and poor, he was untouchable. It was only when he turned on more powerful men that he faced consequences and learned that he wasn't nearly as special as he believed.
42:04 Vanessa Richardson? Thanks so much for listening. We'll be back next Monday as we explore the mind of another serial killer.
42:11 Tristin Engels? Mind of a Serial Killer is a Crime House original powered by Pave Studios. Here at Crime House, we want to thank each and every one of you for your support. If you like what you heard today, reach out on social media at @CrimeHouse on TikTok and Instagram. But don't forget to rate, review, and follow Mind of a Serial Killer wherever you get your podcasts. Your feedback truly makes a difference.
42:35 Vanessa Richardson? And to enhance your listening experience, subscribe to Crime House Plus on Apple Podcasts. You'll get every episode of Mind of a Serial Killer ad-free, along with early access to each thrilling two-part series and exciting bonus content. We'll be back next Monday. Mind of a Serial Killer, a Crime House original powered by Pave Studios, is executive produced by Max Cutler. This episode of Mind of a Serial Killer was produced and directed by Ron Shapiro, written by Andrew Kelleher, edited by Alex Benedon, fact-checked by Catherine Barner, and included production assistance from Stacy Warrenker and Sarah Carroll.
43:19 Vanessa Richardson? Mind of a Serial Killer is hosted by Vanessa Richardson and Dr. Tristin Engels. Of the many sources we used when researching this episode, the one we found the most credible and helpful was "The Horrific Crimes of Gilles de Rais Revisited: Life of a Serial Killer of the Middle Ages" by Jack Smith.
43:43 Vanessa Richardson? If you're looking for your next podcast, check out What the Fact with Connor Tomlinson from Netflix's Love on the Spectrum and Carter Roy. Every week, they take three unbelievable true facts from history and tell you the full story behind them. Follow What the Fact wherever you listen or subscribe on YouTube at What the Fact Pod.
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