Ask Daily Stoic: Ryan and Dominique Dawes on Olympic Gold and Pursuing Excellence

On today’s Daily Stoic Podcast, Ryan and Olympic gymnast Dominique Dawes talk about the difficulty of striving for an extraordinary goal during a pandemic, how to maintain creative and athletic momentum while staying safe, the most important moments that an athlete experiences, and more. Dominique Dawes is a retired American gymnast. She is a three-time Olympian and has won medals at the 1992, 1996, and 2000 Olympic Games. She also won several gold medals in the USA Gymnastics National Championships between 1991 and 1996. Dawes is a member of the International Gymnastics and USA Olympic Halls of Fame. This episode is brought to you by Four Sigmatic. Four Sigmatic is a maker of mushroom coffee, lattes, elixirs, and more. Their drinks all taste amazing and they've full of all sorts of all-natural compounds and immunity boosters to help you think clearly and live well. Four Sigmatic has a new exclusive deal for Daily Stoic listeners: get up to 39% off their bestselling Lion’s Mane bundle by visiting foursigmatic.com/stoic. This episode is also brought to you by Raycon, maker of affordable earbuds with incredibly high-quality sound. Raycon earbuds are half the price of more-expensive competitors and sound just as good. With six hours of battery time, seamless Bluetooth pairing, and a great-fitting design, Raycon earbuds are perfect for working out, travel, conference calls, and more. Get 15% off your order when you purchase Raycon earbuds now, just visit buyraycon.com/stoic.***If you enjoyed this week’s podcast, we’d love for you to leave a review on Apple Podcasts. It helps with our visibility, and the more people listen to the podcast, the more we can invest into it and make it even better. Sign up for the Daily Stoic email: http://DailyStoic.com/signupFollow @DailyStoic:Twitter: https://twitter.com/dailystoicInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/dailystoic/Facebook: http://facebook.com/dailystoicYouTube: https://www.youtube.com/dailystoicFollow Dominique Dawes: Homepage: https://www.dominiquedawesgymnasticsacademy.com/Twitter: https://twitter.com/dominiquedawesInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/daweser/Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Dominique-Dawes-195040886586/See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:05Ryan Holiday?

  Welcome to The Daily Stoic, where each day we read a short passage designed to help you cultivate the strength, insight, wisdom necessary for living the good life. Each one of these passages is based on the 2,000-year-old philosophy that has guided some of history's greatest men and women. For more, you can visit us at DailyStoic.com.

• 0:28Ryan Holiday?

  Hey, it's Ryan Holiday. Welcome to another episode of the Daily Stoic Podcast. My guest today is someone that I grew up watching on television. I guess the first Olympics I remember are the Atlanta Olympics, and then obviously she was also in the Sydney Olympics and the Barcelona Olympics, which I was only like five years old. So don't quite remember that one. But my guest today is Dominique Doss, otherwise known as Awesome Dawson, a three-time Olympian, a world champion, gold medal winner. She is the first African-American woman to win an individual Olympic medal in gymnastics, and just an incredible athlete.

• 1:10Ryan Holiday?

  We actually happen to have the same speaking agent. That's how we connected. I'm with a company called Vayner Speakers, and so is Dominique. And so this is an awesome conversation. We were talking about the business that she's opened recently. She's opened the Dominique Doss Gymnastics Academy in Maryland, but she's also obviously a motivational speaker. She was the co-chair of the President's Council on Fitness, Sports, and Nutrition under Barack Obama. We talk about her business. We talk about that sort of competitive drive that makes an athlete great, that you have to have. Talk about the sort of the mental domain of gymnastics. But then also what I'm fascinated with, what I find myself talking to athletes over and over again, it's probably something that I'm struggling with myself, which is,

• 1:55Ryan Holiday?

  how do you sort of turn that off? How do you have a good life, even with your competitiveness, with your drive, with your ambition? I think this is a very stoic idea. And I was fascinated just how much she brought up her family, how essential her relationship with her kids, with her faith is, to her happiness, how this is how she actually judges and defines her success. It was an honor to have her on. It's just surreal for me sometimes. I mean, I write books about an obscure school of ancient philosophy and obviously it's wonderful to have all of you listening, but sometimes it's just surreal to me that the people that I get to talk to and have gotten to know, it's just surreal sometimes.

• 2:39Ryan Holiday?

  As I said, one of the first athletes that I remember sort of watching on television, I remember watching the Olympics with my parents. And, and obviously, speaking of family, if you were listening to my other interviews, I am now back in Texas. We, we did an RV trip with two kids under four from Texas to Southern California. Socially distanced, did not see a single other person within six feet, wore masks, everything. But it was actually, it was a wonderful trip. And then we, we just made it, when we made it back, we did Sedona, Santa Fe, Buffalo Springs Lake in Lubbock, and then back to Texas, and then right back to the grind, not really a grind, I love it, as, as I

• 3:20Ryan Holiday?

  talk about in my interview today, back to writing, back at the office, back at the farm, back in the swimming pool. That's what the kids missed probably the most on the trip, more than, more than anything else. And back, as we count down the days to the launch of my next book, a preorder campaign will be coming, of course, but I've been talking to you guys about this book, basically for the last year now, but it is at the printers and we should be expecting copies any day now. Lives of the Stoics, The Art of Living From Zeno to Marcus Aurelius. It's 26 biographies of all the essential fascinating Stoics that have shaped so much of the conversations and the writing we've done here at Daily Stoic. Really proud of it. I just finished the audiobook, so that'll be coming soon

• 4:05Ryan Holiday?

  if you're more of an audiobook person. But anyways, that book's now available on Amazon for preorder anywhere you get books sold. There'll be some bonuses, but if you want to preorder it now, that's awesome. But I'm excited. And now I go into the launch of the book cycle launch, which is always a thing. And, you know, trying to keep sane and focus on the right things because I've got, got the next book to write as well. So a lot of great stuff here, great interview. And so here we are, here's my conversation. Hope you enjoy it. And I'll talk to everyone very soon. So how are you, how are you handling all this? I imagine it must be strange as a mother and a business owner. I know you have your, your gym. How have you guys managed to navigate the pandemic?

• 4:51Speaker 01

  The business is doing fine. You know, of course, the numbers are a little low because we're open during a global pandemic, but it's given us a great opportunity to connect with the families, to get to know the kids really well. It's been kind of phenomenal, building a really, you know, tight, close knit community right up here in Clarksburg. So it's been fun. It's just challenging, juggling home life with this as a mother of four very small kids. You know, it's taxing, but my husband is doing all the heavy lifting. He's the one, you know, with the kids 24/7. So I couldn't do it without him.

• 5:23Ryan Holiday?

  It gives you a new appreciation of just how hard it would be to like, say, be a, be a single parent or whatever. I've got two little ones at home too. And it's just like, how does anyone get anything, get anything done? It's insane.

• 5:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, I was home with the kids before and I was on the road, traveling very little, but I would bring the kids with me. So honestly, my whole life has been juggling and doing it all. But now I am away in a gymnastics gym setting, but I'm doing this for my family. It's harder right now because all four kids can't come to the gym. Three of them refuse to wear masks. So they are not allowed in the gym when we're operating. So they come before we open or after we close and they get to run around and enjoy their gym environment. But it's tough because, you know, they can't jump into a class because we're requiring that kids three and up wear masks.

• 6:16Ryan Holiday?

  And, and how old are your kids that won't wear a mask?

• 6:19Speaker 01

  My soon to be five year old and then my two and a half year old twins. And so they're two and a half, they don't have to wear a mask, but mommy would like for them to wear a mask.

• 6:27Ryan Holiday?

  Sure.

• 6:28Speaker 01

  They come before and they come after, after closing if it's not too late. But my six and a half year old, she literally takes four to six gymnastics or ninja classes a day and loves it here and has built so many amazing friendships and she's going to be really good.

• 6:43Ryan Holiday?

  No, it's funny. Your kids are having to learn a lesson that it seems like a good portion of American adults are struggling with, which is that if you can't do a thing, then there are consequences for not being able to do that thing. And it's as simple as that.

• 6:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, we're not forcing it.

• 7:00Ryan Holiday?

  Of course.

• 7:01Speaker 01

  We're going out and socializing very much anyway, but I would love for them to come in and participate in a class and learn those rules and the structure and the boundaries. But there will be life without COVID and they'll be in those classes.

• 7:14Ryan Holiday?

  I'm curious about it. It must be interesting for athletes. And I guess we're sort of seeing this, whether it, you know, it's the discussion about college football or professional football, or I was just reading a fascinating article about lacrosse recruiting. It's like to be great at something, you have to have an almost insane determination for it, almost an inability to turn it off, a complete disregard for risks and your own safety. And yet, you know what I mean? It's like, like then, then obviously there are sometimes bigger considerations. It must be, it must be strange watching these

• 7:56Ryan Holiday?

  kids and then also these parents and then also struggling with it yourself.

• 8:00Speaker 01

  Um, how so?

• 8:03Ryan Holiday?

  Well, I like, I'll give you an example. I had a, an author friend of mine, he's a mentor of mine. He had a stroke a few years ago, right before his book was supposed to come out. And the publisher was like, I said, hey, I think we should pause the launch of the book. And the publisher was saying, well, you know, we'll do all the, the heavy lifting. You don't have to do anything. And my argument was, no author can ever half put out a book. You would be willing to risk your own safety because you care about your thing so much. It must be so hard for athletes who are not able to train, who are not able to do, to play like, like, I guess what I'm saying is that what it, what's required to be a great athlete is a willingness to run through brick walls.

• 8:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:49Ryan Holiday?

  And then society puts up brick walls for safety and it must be so hard to make that balance.

• 8:55Speaker 01

  I would think so. I mean, you know, my athletic career is over. So trying to be an athlete today and put myself in their shoes, it would be quite challenging. But I do know that athletes right now are still training hardcore. Obviously, there's some guidelines put in place. I mean, we have a number of competitive level gymnasts that come here multiple times a week. They are wearing face masks. They are not complaining about it one bit. They're pursuing a sport that they have a deep passion for and they've got goals in it. And so I don't think it's going to slow down that athlete, like you mentioned earlier, that have this unrelenting level of drive and perseverance. So I don't think that's stopping those athletes that already have that burning desire.

• 9:40Speaker 01

  Those that were kind of teetering on the fence, I'm sure they've kind of walked away from the sport or reconsidered things and maybe stepped back for a bit. But I would say as a gym owner, I'm not going to say I have any balance in my life right now because I'm a joke as a, as an owner of a business and a wife and a parent of four kids. But I'll be honest, if my kids and my husband could not be a part of this business, this would not be something that I would pursue because I'm not willing to sacrifice family time and really time with my spouse for a business. This is truly a family affair. It's something I have a deep desire and passion for, and I'm doing it to create a positive environment in the sport of gymnastics and a healthy environment in the sport of ninja

• 10:25Speaker 01

  these days. I do gymnastics and ninja.

• 10:27Ryan Holiday?

  Like ninja warrior?

• 10:29Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. Yeah.

• 10:30Ryan Holiday?

  Got it.

• 10:30Speaker 01

  I know, but I'm almost 44, so I'm not doing it. But watching the kids do it, some adults are getting out there and they're having fun. But just, you know, trying to build these friendships, these bonds, encouraging people to be physically fit, physically active, and it's not only great for their physical health, as I'm sure you know, but also for their emotional health. You know, this is truly a dream come true. But, you know, I've got the drive, I've got the passion. But if there was anything where it was making it unhealthy. For me in my personal life with my spouse or with my kids, I would give this up in a heartbeat.

• 11:04Ryan Holiday?

  I was talking to a, an NBA player about the bubble and, and it was sort of, would you go in the bubble? Would you not go in the bubble? And he was like, this is what I do. I can't not like, not that he didn't have a choice, but it was like, this is what his whole life, this is who he was as a person. And, and that's sort of what I mean. It's like if suddenly I couldn't write, I don't know if I'd be able to function not doing it. And so it's this weird tension.

• 11:31Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you're right about that. Like when you know what your purpose is and you have a deep passion for it and you get that taste of making a greater impact in society, it would be hard to back away. But I do, I just know how I'm wired and if it's going to, I guess, disrupt things in my personal life, then I would have no problem backing away. So maybe my, maybe my drive and desire is not as great as, as some of these exceptional athletes are, but you know, I'm not willing to sacrifice that, those things that are very important to me. And that's also like my quiet time. I'm very introverted. I'm very private. You know, I need to make sure that I still have time for myself. I have time with my kids. I have time with my, you know, husband.

• 12:15Speaker 01

  And it's not 24/7, obviously. My husband wouldn't like that anyway, but.

• 12:19Ryan Holiday?

  Sure.

• 12:20Speaker 01

  You know, it just, it, it just has to be still very fulfilling for me. But I love watching young kids and families walk through my doors and they have this big smile on their faces and they're excited to come to my facility and then they meet my coaches. My staff is amazing. They love working with kids. They're positive. They're encouraging. They're compassionate. They challenge the kids. They communicate well to the parents and they leave with bigger smiles. And that just warms my heart that, you know, people do see the Dominique Dawes Gymnastics Academy, you know, as a positive place in their community.

• 12:52Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, I do love this idea of sort of, because people on the outside who kind of hear about these insane hours that athletes work or that entrepreneurs work. I think they kind of think that it's like you go away and you're not seen for 18 hour days or whatever. I've been kind of impressed with, especially at the college level, like, you know, you sort of walk in and it's like, oh, people's kids are like, they sort of have melded family and the professional purpose together. So in a weird way, there's, there's, there's both not a lot of boundaries and they're kind of all in the same, in the same bucket. And it sounds like you've kind of built your, your gym and your second career that way.

• 13:32Speaker 01

  Well, my, not only the gym, but even before this, when I would do speaking engagements, I would have my family on the road with me. My husband would be there. And then once we had children, our first daughter would come, then our second daughter would come. It became much more expensive.

• 13:47Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 13:47Speaker 01

  And it was not a vacation at all, you know, that was like real, real work, traveling with four kids even. You know, and as you know, Stephen, he was like, oh my gosh, like they're all coming. And yes, they were. Because I couldn't imagine doing the work and the passion, you know, that I have for the work that I'm doing without my family. They're such a huge part of who I am today. And like you said, coaches will bring their kids and, you know, it's a family affair because at the end of the day, you know, when our last day is here, who's going to be standing next to us on our deathbed, you know? It'll be our spouse or, you know, our kids. And if we're blessed to see grandkids or great grandkids someday, that's really what our legacy is truly about.

• 14:31Speaker 01

  And so my kids have always been involved. And I remember one of my Olympic teammates, she had told me, because she would travel without her kids. And she said, Dom, once you take one trip without your kids, you're never going to bring them back again. And I'm like, well, really? And I did a trip without my kids, without my husband, and it was so easy. And so much like a vacation, even though I was technically working. And I remember it feeling very empty and very lonely. And I remember thinking, you know what? I'm done being on the road because it is taxing when I bring the kids on them because you don't want to change their schedule up too much. And then things came out in the sport of gymnastics. My children love the sport and I thought, you know what, let me do something at home now. You know, let me build this academy

• 15:14Speaker 01

  and a number of academies in Maryland and let's bring my kids, you know, into that. And so that's where we are today. And it's a lot of hard work. I won't, I won't deny that, but I love it.

• 15:26Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, for people who don't know, we have the same speaking agency, which is, which is Vayner Speakers. And one of the, I don't know if the pandemic has sort of revealed this for you, you might have already come to this conclusion, but I do a lot of speaking also. And, and so if you had told me, you know, at the beginning of 2020, okay, the second half of 2020, you're going to do no speaking, I would have said, well, you know, from an income perspective, how's that going to work? You know, from a, from a family perspective, how's that going to work? We're all going to be on each other's throats, blah, blah, blah. And, and what I, what's been interesting for me is just, and it sounds like this is what you're doing with your business. It's like, oh, you can just

• 16:05Ryan Holiday?

  direct that energy into other creative avenues that are also financially positive, right? And so sometimes we kind of get stuck in these paths where it's like, this is what I started doing, so I must do this as long as the opportunities go. And it's almost like a lack of confidence that, hey, if I stop over here, I'm creative enough and intelligent enough and create, and, and, and smart enough that I'll just find another positive outlet.

• 16:33Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, I agree with that, but it does suck being unemployed. I will say that when it comes to speaking and things of that nature. And yes, if someone would have said, oh, all those speeches that you had lined up prior to the Olympics would dry up, I would have thought, no way. That did happen. And, you know, you have to learn to adjust. You have to learn to pivot. And during the months and months of quarantining, my husband and our four kids, we were working on getting this gym off the ground, getting equipment in, going through construction, dealing with contractors. And that was already pre-planned before COVID hit. So that was already on my schedule and that's where we had our focus. And so. During the quarantining period, I loved it at first because I am introverted. I was like,

• 17:18Speaker 01

  this bubble's amazing.

• 17:19Ryan Holiday?

  Right.

• 17:21Speaker 01

  You know, I, I realized, you know, you can either get better during these times or get bitter. And so my husband and I, you know, tried our darndest to make a commitment to, you know, have quality family time and enjoy this journey together. And now I have this awesome slideshow that one of my employees put together that all of the family see when they walk through my doors of, hey, this is how Dominique and her family spent their time during quarantining. They put together this business and we were able to open our doors even during a global pandemic. So, you know, it's been a beautiful thing. We're kind of rising up, I think, through the ashes and, you know, pursuing, having an ability to pursue something, you

• 18:02Speaker 01

  know, that I have a passion for is truly a gift. I know too many people who wake up each and every day and they do not like what they do and they do not like who they're with. And I'm very blessed in that regard that, you know, I have a strong faith, you know, I love my spouse and I love, you know, my kids and I love the gifts that God has blessed me with. And that's why, you know, this academy has, you know, been very special to all, for all six of us involved.

• 18:30Ryan Holiday?

  No, at Daily Soak, we talk about sort of the distinction between alive time and dead time. And I, sadly, I've got to imagine the last six months or so have been a lot of dead time for people. And nobody chose this, it's nobody's fault, but you do ultimately choose what you do with that time. And, you know, you'll hear it in people's language. They go, oh, when things go back to normal, as if they're kind of just wait, it's like this caught them by surprise and now they're just waiting for another thing to catch them by surprise. Instead of going, here are the facts on the ground, I have to react and, and, you know, produce something in this interim period that I'm proud of or that moves the ball forward in some way. Because who can afford to just, you know?

• 19:15Ryan Holiday?

  Let life be something that happens to them.

• 19:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, I know. I mean, this is our new normal, though I do believe there will be life without COVID. But I think it'll ever go back to how it was before. It's just crazy to think one day we, you know, woke up and all of a sudden, you know, you lose some of your freedoms or lose your job. You know, and there's no other, you know, employment to go back to. I'm sure, you know, there's a lot of families out there that are truly, truly struggling. Uh, financially, emotionally, you know, socially. I mean, the fact that you can't connect and, you know, interact with other families, you know, is a very, you know, can be a very dark time for many families, though, you know, for me and my family, we really have, you know, leaned on our faith greatly.

• 20:03Speaker 01

  Uh, that we always had a strong relationship with, and that has kind of helped us put things in, you know, perspective and to even see that there are areas where we really are blessed.

• 20:14Ryan Holiday?

  And you mentioned being an introvert. I, I sort of count my blessings there. It's like for the last six months, not only have I not had to go to any coffee meetings, I haven't even had to hem and haw about whether I was obligated to accept them or not. But then I, I look at my wife and I look at my, my oldest, uh, who's four, who are, you know, just sort of deeply social creatures. And you see just the impact that that had, like, it's if I lose energy being around people, well, what about the people who gain energy being around other people? And that's sort of a, that's like a, a less discussed cost of, uh, of COVID, certainly.

• 20:50Speaker 01

  Oh, well, my husband's struggling. Let me not deny that. I mean, I, like I said, I'm an introvert. Um, I love being around people, though, and I love connecting with people, but I, you know, gain a little bit more strength when I'm, you know, I need my downtime. Uh, my husband is an extreme, extreme extrovert, and so are two of my other kids, and you can just see the toll that it is taking on them. However, That's why this business has been such a gift because it has allowed us the opportunity. You know, we opened our doors and really were able to create this very healthy and exciting and positive community here and meet so many new friends and families. So much so that we ended up relocating closer to the gym environment, which has been really nice.

• 21:35Speaker 01

  So again, this happened all during a global pandemic and we we've been allowed to open. But that has been a gift for my very extroverted husband to connect with people regularly. He needed that.

• 21:46Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, I I'm curious, I got a I got a sort of a gymnastics question for you, which is, it feels like gymnastics is unique among athletic events in that it's both an individual and a team sport. And and obviously, I I'm sort of fascinated with the role that ego plays in in life and and in business and athletics. How does like, how do you, how does an athlete balance the sort of intensity and the drive and the commitment to their own career and advancement? And then understanding that, you know, we're sort of being scored as a collective. And if if that disease of me creeps in, as Pat Riley calls it, none of us are going to be successful.

• 22:30Speaker 01

  I mean, I guess with me right now, everything with this company, it is, like I mentioned earlier, a family affair. It's not solely, you know, about me. My husband's very involved. This is for our four kids, not only for, you know, their futures, but even for them today to build friendships and challenge themselves physically and socially and emotionally. And so the focus right now is not just upon, you know, me, myself and I, or my ego, for that matter. It really is about, you know, my family. I'll be honest, if I did not have a family, young kids, and if everything did not publicly come out with regard to everything in the sport of gymnastics as it did, I don't see that I would have been pursuing this.

• 23:14Speaker 01

  But with my two oldest loving the sport and having a passion for it, obviously, the seed was planted from me. You know, I wanted to make sure that they had a very healthy and positive environment in the sport. And so. You know, that's really been my drive and it's not solely on just, you know, what, you know, my sole goals are.

• 23:35Ryan Holiday?

  So i- i- is maybe the way, the way that you sort of get through, i- if we're trying to generalize this, it's sort of a mission or a larger purpose helps the individual subsume the ego and, and sort of take out some of the selfishness because it's like, we're not doing this for me, we're doing this for the family, or we're not, we're not doing this for, for us or even the team, we're doing it for the country, in the case of an Olympic team. Is that sort of how you do that?

• 24:03Speaker 01

  Um, no, it's, you know, I would say really it has to do with the betterment of the sport. There's thousands and thousands of young girls and boys in the sport of gymnastics. I do not have boys gymnastics at my facility, though we do pursue Ninja for boys and girls. But this is really me trying my best to save a sport that I love. And I'm trying to make sure that, uh, young girls that pursue the competitive level aspect of the sport and even the rec and preschool, uh, level of the sport don't have the same experience that I had, physically, emotionally, verbally, and in many ways, um, you know, I, it can be done in a healthier environment. And I think that's really what's driving me, uh,

• 24:48Speaker 01

  with my two oldest loving the sport. You know, I'm going to ensure that they have a positive experience and I want to make sure all the other thousands of young girls that come through my facility have a very positive and uplifting experience as well.

• 25:00Ryan Holiday?

  That must be such, so difficult in gymnastics. It, again, somewhat unique of the sports, like you're being judged, right? There's literally judges sitting there in the competition, you know, giving you a score. So there has to be this kind of intense perfectionism. Uh, it's not just about getting the outcome, like, hey, did the ball go in the hoop? It doesn't matter if it was pretty or not. How do you balance that perfectionism with what we would probably argue is what you want as like just a healthy individual in the world? How do you turn that on and off?

• 25:31Speaker 01

  Um, it's, it's pretty challenging. I mean, gymnastics does attract perfectionists or it turns you into a perfectionist if you have that seed already planted in you. And, you know, just being the subjective sport that it is, you do, like you mentioned, know that you're being critiqued and judged and not fairly. Because what one person will think is beautiful gymnastics and flawless, another will see it maybe as sloppy. And it's very challenging to communicate that to a young kid. That in one, one light, they're doing exceptionally well and scored well. And then the next light, they're not. You know, I think it's just trying to not focus so much on scores, not focus on the numbers, but really focus on them striving for their personal best.

• 26:16Speaker 01

  Understanding why they're pursuing the sport of gymnastics, why they're doing the sport. And hopefully it's, you know, them developing a deep love for the sport of gymnastics and wanting to challenge themselves physically, wanting to challenge themselves. You know, in many different areas. I mean, the sport of gymnastics, I truly believe is like one of the hardest sports, you know, out there, the level of commitment. You know, the physicality, the fearlessness that you need to have is, is pretty exceptional.

• 26:49Ryan Holiday?

  Writing has this element to it where, you know, you spend all this time, you know, making this thing, it's supposed to do X. And then, you know, ultimately you're scored based on the Amazon ranking or the appearance on the, you know, the New York Times list. But you have to, you kind of have to separate, you know, that sort of, there's like the external scorecard, which can go your way. And obviously, you know, you don't win if it doesn't go your way. Yet you also kind of have to have this stronger inner scorecard where you know, like, hey, I did my best. I did what I set out to do. And I imagine that's, that's probably what you try to teach kids. And the earlier you pick that up, the healthier your relationship with the sport will be.

• 27:33Speaker 01

  Well, we want them, you know, like, we want them to focus on their personal best. We want them to make sure that the passion, the drive is coming from within. But it's something that they want to do and to recognize that their teammates are just that, they're their teammates and not competitors. And the sport of gymnastics really does have. A culture that is based on competition and you're constantly viewing everyone as a competitor. You're judging everyone, you're critical, you focus on things, you focus on your imperfections instead of focusing on the positives of the things that you did do well. You leave each and every practice thinking about the things you didn't do well. And that's what we're hoping to change, you know, to help build up a young kid's self-esteem. Not with fluff, not with, you know, you know, we're not just telling everyone they did a great job.

• 28:19Ryan Holiday?

  Right.

• 28:20Speaker 01

  You know, but uh, just kind of encouraging people to recognize that, you know, hard work does pay off, but it can be done in a healthier environment.

• 28:29Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, I think I, I read something from Billie Jean King once where she was sort of saying the paradox of being a great athlete, I'd be curious about your experiences. It is that the precisely the perfectionism, the focus on what could have been better, where you fell short, you know, what went wrong is what makes you great. It's, it obviously creates a feedback loop where you are getting better, but it also makes it extraordinarily difficult to enjoy or even notice that you are at the peak of your game or that you've accomplished an incredible amount. Like you're, you're not able to enjoy the peak because all you're focusing on is the next peak or how imperfectly you got there.

• 29:12Speaker 01

  Exactly, like what you didn't accomplish, like it's never enough. I mean, there was just this great piece on HBO and it was talking about the mental aspect of the sport of gymnastics and how many Olympians are just never satisfied. And then when even their career is over, there's that coulda, woulda, shoulda. Uh, there's that what's, you know, what's next because their identity is wrapped up in being that particular athlete and nothing more because you sacrificed so much, especially if you did it since your childhood. So it is hard to kind of, I guess, be satisfied, but that's what makes, I think, a lot of athletes so

• 29:54Speaker 01

  great that they have that. Like you mentioned before, that drive, always want to do more and be better.

• 30:01Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, and especially if you came from a place in your childhood where maybe you didn't fully feel enough, or you felt like, hey, you know, it's like when I'm succeeding at this, this is when, you know, I feel my, I feel like my parents are proud of me, or I feel like I'm more accepted. We can pick up all these like super complicated issues that kind of get intertwined with winning, or success, or money, or fame. And then it, I think the saddest, hardest part is you finally get everything that you think you wanted, and it, it didn't do what you hoped. And, and so it's, it's, it's encouraging to me to hear you talk about the family stuff, because that is the one element for me that, that turned out to be even better than I thought.

• 30:45Ryan Holiday?

  Do you know what I mean? Like, hitting number one was great, but anticlimactic, you know, I've never felt like any experiences with my family were anticlimactic. My wedding was not anticlimactic. You know what I mean?

• 30:58Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, you know, waking up in the middle of the night, hearing a screaming baby at 2:00 a.m., not the most joyful, you know, you know, experience in life, but it's very fulfilling, and I know I'll miss those days. And I really don't miss being at the Olympics. You know, I don't reminisce.

• 31:12Ryan Holiday?

  Really?

• 31:13Speaker 01

  Nope. And I don't reminisce and miss, oh, that feeling that I got in 1996, standing on the podium, which I was very honored to be a part of that, and honored to have such amazing teammates, and, you know, to win a gold medal and make history. But when I dream about, you know, exciting moments and memories in my life, those don't come up. They really don't. It's the time, you know, with my spouse, or, you know, making that commitment to say I do, because I never thought I would get married, coming from a divorced household, and seeing so much heartache and pain there, or, you know, birthing two children naturally, and then birthing twins, you know, like, wow, that was just, you know, a miracle and amazing. But people

• 31:54Speaker 01

  do it all the time. Like, they do it every day. But it was, those are the moments that I really relish, and they make me smile, and they're fulfilling for me. And then the moments today of a young kid walking through my door, smiling, or the story that I've heard of parents that had their kids in gymnastics, they had a negative experience, they were in a very unhealthy environment, too much pressure, a lot of negativity. They get into our classes here, they have a blast and they're smiling and they're, they can't wait to come back. That's fulfilling. Um, I'm not saying that the Olympics didn't, doesn't matter to me, it definitely did, but uh, that's not what, you know, that's not what fulfills me and that's not what makes me whole. And it was a little

• 32:34Speaker 01

  difficult, I will say, as a young athlete, winning gold, standing on top of the podium and being like, oh, this is it? Like, I'm not fulfilled what just happened here. This is what, and then I, when I reached investing and putting away over a million dollars, I was like, oh, wait, I'm supposed to feel so much better about myself and so great, but I don't. And so it's those moments with your family, it's those moments with your spouse, it's those moments knowing that you've planted an amazing positive seed in a stranger's life, that those are the moments, um, you know, that'll, that fulfill us and that'll last with us for a lifetime.

• 33:11Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, I remember when, when my book hit number one for the first time, I was mowing the lawn. You know, the text came in, it's like, I still have to finish mowing this lawn. And it, it was this thing, you know, it was like a five year thing in the making and it'd been this, and, and I, I expected to feel X and I felt sort of the lack of X. And then, and then when I think about like the best moments of my life, you know, it was like sitting on a porch swing with one of my kids and they say something cute or, you know, it was, it's, it's, it, it's weird how the actual ordinary things are actually what you find to be extraordinary and the extraordinary things, as great as they are and, and as much as they facilitate, you know, you couldn't have gotten the million dollars without

• 33:56Ryan Holiday?

  winning the, the Olympics and you couldn't open the gym without the, but, but it's, it's how little we actually need to be happy and, and yet we spend, unfortunately, people spend so much of their time, like, so, some people feel that, I, I guess, I'd be curious what you think. So, so they get on the, they get on the, on, on the medal standard, they hit number one and it's anticlimactic. You can kind of go two ways when you experience that. Number one is you go, Oh, okay, this is actually isn't it. I gotta go find something deeper and more meaningful. And then other people go, oh, it's not one Super Bowl that I needed. It's the most Super Bowls of all time. Then I'll have it.

• 34:39Speaker 01

  Yes, and then it'll be never enough, you know. Um, you know, I've I've done motivational speaking, you know, as you have for a while. And, you know, I've done work with presidents and very known and very powerful, you know, people and and I remember on stage, people asking me, oh, what's like the most exciting thing you've done? And I was like, well, actually, last week, my two dogs, we went on this walk and I saw the. You know, and they were like, are you serious? And I'm like, no, like I'm in the moment during those periods of life that you said, or you know, you say are ordinary. But those are really the extraordinary moments in our life that we need to appreciate. The other day, I'm driving home with my daughter after a very long day at the gym and we were both exhausted.

• 35:21Speaker 01

  And we see a double rainbow that she points out and she's screaming and so giddy and so excited. You know, and just kind of like, that's a moment that I'll never forget. And, you know, just recognizing, you know, her, you know, reaction to that and how exciting. And then we started talking about a beach trip we had, goodness, I guess it was a couple of years ago, where we saw a double rainbow then and she remembered. I was like, how does she remember that? It was years ago. Um, but it's those little moments and appreciating those that truly are gifts. And they are those, they are the extraordinary moments in our life that we will hold on to. But many of us see them as ordinary. We don't appreciate them. We don't recognize the beauty in them. And so we always think we've got to be on top of that podium.

• 36:06Speaker 01

  We've got to win not just one Super Bowl, like you said, but multiple Super Bowls. And that's when I'm going to be fulfilled. And I truly think everything that will fulfill us in life, it's right in front of us. Just many of us choose not to see it. And I went through life many years not seeing it. And it is my husband that kind of opened my eyes to the fact that it's truly those simple, simple, simple moments in life that are truly gifts for all of us.

• 36:30Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, and I just love how timeless that idea is too. I mean, you go back to the Stoics and, you know, Marcus Aurelius is the emperor of Rome and he's, he's like, what is this? He's like, so I have like a fancier cloak than other people. Like this doesn't change anything, you know, or, you know, 500 years ago, Blaise Pascal said, "All of humanity's problems stem from our inability to sit quietly in a room alone." And, and you're like, oh yeah, if I could just be here like with this, whether, yeah, whether it's cleaning up the gym in the morning or, you know, I, I bet, I love that experience of getting somewhere early, you're turning the lights on, you know, and, and you, they're, they're flickering up, you know, like when I get into my office in the morning and, and just, I'm, I'm the first one there. There's no one there. It's quiet.

• 37:13Ryan Holiday?

  And I get to dig into this thing I love. Like to me, that's way more satisfying than, you know, uh, you know, a chunk of a royalty check or, you know, a, a profile in a newspaper or something. It, it's, it's weirdly being able to, to sort of tap into the sort of humanness of it. I think that's the most wonderful.

• 37:33Speaker 01

  Mm hmm. That's, yeah, very true. I mean, I guess, you know, as we are both, you know, very accomplished individuals. I know many people listen and be like, well, of course they feel that way because they've accomplished certain things or whatever, don't have certain life struggles or challenges, they think. But I will say the happiest people that I know in life are the people that have very little, you know, it's about their relationships. It's about the simple things in life and they are living a much less stress-filled life than many of us ever could.

• 38:04Ryan Holiday?

  Right, yeah. Blessed are the, blessed are the meek. Um, and, and I, I think too, when I think, although I, I'm sort of very privileged and, and like you, I've, I've made some money and I have some nice things, but like the things that I'm most happy about, the, or, or the, the things that I enjoy the most were not at all a function of the, the success or the privilege. Do you know what I mean? It's like, like, it's not the car that makes me happy. If you told me I had to sell the car and get a different car.

• 38:40Ryan Holiday?

  That isn't what would get me up out of bed in the morning. It would be where I'm driving the car and what I get to do, you know, like it, it, it, it's just because someone has something. Like the, the Stoics talk a lot about this. They're like, look, it's better to be rich than poor if you had a choice. But a wise or a successful person should be able to be happy with either. Because the, the external thing isn't actually changing what you're feeling inside.

• 39:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, it doesn't fulfill you. We just packed up and moved to come a little closer to the gym. And I realized how many things I have. My husband thinks I'm a hoarder, but I'm like, everything is sentimental. He's like, no, that scarf is not sentimental.

• 39:18Ryan Holiday?

  Right.

• 39:19Speaker 01

  Um, and one thing that I did realize is I said to the movers, I was like, you know what? Let's leave these boxes in the garage and see how much I really need and miss these items. And I really don't miss the stuff. And if someone, you know, if I had to, you know, leave a vehicle or whatever, you know, somewhere and I would never see it again. You know, that vehicle or what have you definitely did not, you know, fulfill me. It's definitely the relationships, um, you know, that we have in such, you know, in life, um, not the things. And I think we do think the things will fulfill us or the accomplishments and the accolades will fulfill us or the amount of money will fulfill us. And we, when you do achieve that, there is this emptiness like, oh, wait, I didn't get the satisfaction that I thought I would.

• 40:01Speaker 01

  And if you recognize that and you learn from it, then you'll, you know, strive to focus on the things that will fulfill you. And that's honestly relationships and impact and, you know, pursuing things you love, um, and not going after things.

• 40:17Ryan Holiday?

  Or, or, or worse, people, because they have the, the huge house or the, the fancy cars or, or the lifestyle or whatever. Ironically, to facilitate that, they end up depriving themselves of the ordinary things that do make them happiest. You know, like you're, you, you, like, for me, like, my definition of success, what makes me happy is the autonomy to be able to say, I don't want to do that. The autonomy to make my own hours or the autonomy to, to, you know, go for a run in the middle of the day or whatever. And there's. This scenario where you could be more successful, more famous, you know, more in demand. And the cost of that is actually the freedom to see your kids whenever you want them to or to have them come to your.

• 41:02Ryan Holiday?

  You know, if you had 50 gyms all over the country and you were traveling to each one, you wouldn't be able to take classes with your daughter all day.

• 41:09Speaker 01

  No, I mean, exactly. I mean, I I met with this wonderful marketing consultant. Who was guiding me in the beginning of this and he's like, oh, do you see yourself turning in this into a franchise and going nationwide? And I was like, absolutely not like I and he was like, oh, but you have the ability. You know, to make this so much greater. And I think greater for me is still having the quality of life and the time. With my children and me remaining married to my husband and me knowing my kids and my kids knowing me. And so, you know, while I do want to do multiple locations of this gymnastics academy. In the Montgomery County area and the state of Maryland or in the DMV area.

• 41:51Speaker 01

  I definitely will not sacrifice my family time, you know, and I will not. Spread myself too thin because I know it wouldn't be fulfilling. I don't need to be the next Chick-fil-A. I don't care. It doesn't, you know, that doesn't drive me. It really, you know, I know at the end of my days. I truly should not be judged upon. You know, or look, my legacy to me is not wrapped up in my Olympic achievements or my net worth, but really. What's your relationship like in your home? And, you know, do you truly love your spouse? Do your spouse truly love you? Do you enjoy each other's company? Do you know each other? Do you grow together or did you grow apart? And then with regards to your kids and so, you know, I just know on my deathbed.

• 42:35Speaker 01

  I don't want to have those regrets that I wish I spent. More time at home and less time at the gym. I've seen too many. Gym owners that didn't do like necessarily the franchise model, but they sacrificed everything. You know, they lost their marriage. They don't know their kids and they're miserable, but they're sure as heck extremely successful in the world size. But that's not what I want for my life.

• 43:00Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, I think that's the question I always like. I try to go, what do I want my day to look like? Like, what do I want my life to look like day in and day out? And I try to back out my decisions from there. Because yeah, you could chase it like success tends to create more success, but it doesn't necessarily create more quality of life. So I love that you you think that way. Your business sounds awesome. I'm so glad we got to meet. Thank you for doing this and hopefully we can see each other in person at an event someday.

• 43:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. Once we can all get out and socialize again, that'll be great.

• 43:35Ryan Holiday?

  Yes, awesome. Well, have a great day. We'll talk soon.

• 43:38Speaker 01

  Take care and take care.

• 43:40Ryan Holiday?

  If you're liking this podcast, we would love for you to subscribe. Please leave us a review on iTunes or any of your favorite podcast listening apps. It really helps and tell a friend.