You can’t be happy 24/7: Riley Keough on surrendering to grief and anger

How good are you at letting yourself feel your feelings? Actor Riley Keough thinks it’s important to embrace the sad and angry moments as much as the joyful, hopeful ones. In this chat with Fearne, Riley explains how her own grief at losing her brother and mum has taught her that fighting or repressing emotions only makes you more anxious in the long term. Riley’s mum was Lisa Marie Presley, the only child of Elvis Presley. Riley talks about Lisa’s ability to live in a place of truth – she’d never do anything that didn’t feel authentic to her. What can we all learn about how to lean into our own pleasure? It’s liberating to not care if others like you! Fearne and Riley also discuss how impactful it can be when divorced parents are able to co-parent with grace. Plus, Riley reveals why she thinks her mum and Michael Jackson had such a deep connection. Lisa Marie Presley’s memoir, which Riley finished, is called From Here To The Great Unknown, and it’s out now. If you liked this episode of Happy Place, you might also like: Taylor Jenkins Reid https://pod.fo/e/1686f3 Gabor Mate https://pod.fo/e/166b8a Ashely Cain https://pod.fo/e/e3096 Child on the line is a three-part documentary podcast series celebrating the Volunteer Counsellors of Childline, and the brave children & young people who contact the helpline service. Listen here: https://www.childonthelinepodcast.com/ Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Hi, I'm Natalie Dormer and I'm proud to be an ambassador for Childline. This year, Childline turns 40. To mark it, I've made Child on the Line, a three-part documentary podcast. We hear why children needed a helpline in 1986, how it was built against the odds and the challenges children face today, from abuse and mental health to social media and AI. Search Child on the Line and listen wherever you get your podcasts.

• 0:29Fearne Cotton?

  Hello, I'm Fern Cotton and this is Happy Place, the show that knows deep sadness can sit alongside great joy. Today, I'm chatting to Riley Keo.

• 0:40Speaker 02

  Mental illness, the broad term bugs me when people are talking about depression or anxiety or these feelings that are valid. I think that the way we're so hard on ourselves for having a moment of depression, having a few weeks of being anxious, having a panic attack, like, how could we not when we live in this wild place and we're having this crazy experience? So I try and give myself grace for my feelings because by no means am I this like perfectly level-headed individual, like I'm a human and I feel a lot.

• 1:11Fearne Cotton?

  How are you, my lovely people? I hope you're all well and happy. I am, in a very cliched way, in the Christmas scramble. I am currently sat in what looks like, I was about to say Santa's workshop, it doesn't, it looks like someone has been shopping and just tipped everything out of bags onto the floor, and I don't like it. I don't like it. I want someone to come and help me sort it all out. Normally, I'm very list-heavy, as you probably all well know. This year, I've been really all over the gaff and I haven't got post-it notes out, I haven't correlated the gift to the list. It's chaos and it's stressing me out and I'm coping by having a little glass of wine every night, which is probably not the best way to cope, but hey, we're honest here on

• 1:55Fearne Cotton?

  this podcast and we don't beat around the bush. Look, I've got to sort my shit out, that's what I've got to do. I'm sure you're all feeling pretty much the same, so. Why don't we all take a break together? Let's press pause on The Christmas Madness and listen to a podcast.

• 2:11Fearne Cotton?

  Ah, help. So, oh, today is so, so special. I'm imagining you were as obsessed as I was about Daisy Jones and the Six. The book changed my life. I read it twice. I've never in my life read a book twice. I was so besotted with this book. And then they made a TV series. Riley, of course, played the lead in this series. She played Daisy. And her performance was, it was just beautiful. It was so perfect. It's no surprise she's an Emmy and Golden Globe nominated actor, quite frankly. If you didn't know, but I'm sure you did, Riley's mum is Lisa Marie Presley. She was Elvis Presley's only child. Now Riley has completed her mum's memoir after she died last year.

• 2:56Fearne Cotton?

  It's called From Here to the Great Unknown. Oh, it's breathtaking. It's really sad and it's really beautiful and gorgeous and raw. She's also the sole trustee of Graceland. We talked about so much in this chat. It felt like a really lovely, gentle phone call, quite frankly. It was on Zoom because Riley obviously lives in the States and she wasn't doing any other UK press. So I was like, I'm doing it on Zoom. I don't care. I can't get to the States, she can't get here. Let's just chat on Zoom. And there's something I don't like about Zoom, which is that you don't have that proper, proper eye contact or, you know, you're not in the same space as someone. But there's also something really beautiful about it.

• 3:41Fearne Cotton?

  And it is that really gentle, quiet tenderness that you get with a phone call. And that's what this feels like, I think. And I reckon you're going to feel the same way. We were just having a chat. We talked about family history and lineage and, and different problems, perhaps like addiction filtering through the family, which felt really important. And we talked a hell of a lot about grief because Riley not only lost her mum last year, but a little bit before that, lost her brother to suicide. And she's just had a lot of grief to deal with and, and she's very honest about how she's dealing with it and navigating it, quite frankly.

• 4:19Speaker 03

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• 4:49Speaker 05

  Because you didn't just say, how can I provide these investments? You'd be, how do I holistically provide everything? How do I bring in the legal, the accounting, all this? And do it at a price point no one else is doing it.

• 4:58Speaker 06

  Learn more about how we approach wealth management at creativeplanning.com/integrated.

• 5:03Speaker 07

  This message is brought to you by the Capital One Venture X Card. Venture X offers the premium benefits you expect, like a $300 annual Capital One travel credit for less than you expect. Elevate your earn with unlimited double miles on every purchase, bringing you one step closer to your next dream destination. Plus, enjoy access to over 1,000 airport lounges worldwide. The Capital One Venture X Card. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. Lounge access is subject to change. See CapitalOne.com for details.

• 5:36Fearne Cotton?

  Riley and I chatted remotely just a few days ago, so this is really fresh. Let's do it. Here's the show.

• 6:04Fearne Cotton?

  Riley, I'm so happy to kind of meet you over our laptops.

• 6:08Speaker 02

  I'm so happy to kind of meet you too.

• 6:11Fearne Cotton?

  Well, I've been wanting to get you on the podcast for so long. I just adored your performance in Daisy Jones. I thought you were mesmerizing and... You just, I mean, I was such a fan of the book. We've had Taylor on the podcast and I'm just in awe of her writing. I think she's incredible. But you guys brought so much magic to the screen. Did it, did it feel like that on set when you were filming it, that you were doing something special?

• 6:35Speaker 02

  It was really fun. So I don't know what that means, but it was just like, especially the rehearsal time we had together. It was like, it felt like we weren't at work and it felt kind of like we'd, we'd show up every day and, you know, go to rehearsal and, and I guess, yeah, it just had this feeling of like, just going to hang out with friends and, and I, I would constantly find myself like, feeling like I wasn't doing enough work because it felt so fun, you know? So yeah, it felt, it was, it was really special. And a lot of the people who I got to work with, I had a really great time with and

• 7:15Speaker 02

  I think that we got really lucky with our cast and that like, all of us were very like selfless and giving actors to one another. And I think that that's pretty uncommon with so many people. You know, there's, there's bound to be one person who's a little bit, I don't know, like, has a different process, but I would say for the most part, like, we were all just nice, nice people, you know? And I think that that goes a long way.

• 7:47Fearne Cotton?

  Oh my God, it certainly does, especially when you're doing something new and something that you know everyone's going to watch. You know, you want it to be enjoyable.

• 7:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, and I think in that way, like, none of us had ever done anything like this. So we were all kind of having the same experience. Like, I'd never sang, Sam had never sang. A lot of the, the guys on the show, like, had played music, but not like in years. So it felt like this, like, there was room to mess up and not, and no pressure in a way, you know? And that, that part was really fun.

• 8:20Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, it's just so good. I might have to, I, I think over Christmas, I'm just going to watch it all again. I sort of miss it.

• 8:26Speaker 02

  Watch it again.

• 8:26Fearne Cotton?

  It's just so joyful. I loved it. And obviously you've been With Taylor recently, because she's been interviewing you on your book tour dates, right?

• 8:34Speaker 02

  She did, she did the LA live talk, which was so much fun. She texted me before and she was like, I'm just gonna try and keep it, you know, light if, if possible, because a lot of the stuff in the book is heavier and I, and I really appreciated that because it's, it gets really draining talking about your personal trauma all day. So I just thought that was like really thoughtful of her to, and, and it was really fun. Like we, we were able to have a really fun conversation and actually Sam was there from Daisy Jones and randomly he texted me and was like, can I come? So he was just sitting.

• 9:16Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, that's so nice.

• 9:17Speaker 02

  So he was just sitting right in the front row and I felt like we were back doing Daisy Jones press. It was really funny.

• 9:24Fearne Cotton?

  That's so nice, but it's, and it's so beautiful and it's, you know, testament to that experience you guys had on set, that you're all friends and you want to hang out and support each other. It's beautiful. It's a beautiful thing. This book, which we've just touched on, I just found to be, it just felt like a privilege to read it. And I think it's for all the reasons that you've just mentioned, you know, it is incredibly personal and raw and at times unbelievably honest, which is, you know, they're all the ingredients to make a good book, I suppose, but I just raced through it. I thought it was so beautifully done and this of course was a book that your mum had, so she'd reached out to you before she died and said, I need, I need help with my story.

• 10:05Fearne Cotton?

  I, I, I can't quite collate the stories and get them together to form this book. How, how was that for you at that point? Because it's quite a rare thing that a mum and daughter or father and son or whatever, get to sit down and really look over someone's life like that. You know, I, I haven't done that with my mum and I, I have regret about not doing that with say my grandparents. Because you know, there's all these brilliant stories that haven't been unearthed and you don't get to learn who your parents are necessarily outside of the role that they hold as a mum or a dad. What, so what was that like for you?

• 10:41Speaker 02

  Well, first of all, it's something I keep telling people. To ask their parents to like record your parents telling their story because it's there's so much you don't know and Yeah. I mean, in my case, there wasn't so much I didn't know, but but it's just it's it's a really special thing to have when someone when they pass away in in terms of your family's history and and I just felt really blessed to have that, to have sixteen tapes of her going through her entire life from birth until present day. And I mean, the timing of it was really strange, you know, she asked me to help her

• 11:23Speaker 02

  finish the book in December and she died in January, so it was really bizarre timing and I it was, yeah, it was it it was very odd, like we we had a phone call with her and her manager and we were basically talking about like what she wanted from the book and what she she felt like she where she was getting stuck and and basically she felt that I think she just like didn't like talking about herself, honestly, and just felt like a bit over it and kind of like I don't want to, like, I don't see the part, she lost sort of the reason why she started, you know, writing it and talking about herself and she was

• 12:05Speaker 02

  she was very like shy and had low self-esteem and so I think that she wanted somebody else to kind of, well, what she said was, you know, you know me better than I know myself, like, can't you help me, you know, can't you write it? And I was like, of course, I'll help you, not thinking that like she would die a few weeks later, you know? So that was, of course, on my mind when she passed away and and it was a really um intense process because it was shortly after she died, a couple of months, I got these tapes from the book because I basically just was being sent everything when she died of hers from people like

• 12:45Speaker 02

  that they had of hers, her records, her her songs, her, you know, e- everyone was kind of sending me everything going, you know, you should have this and in that process, I, you know, the the unfinished book was a part of the things she kind of hadn't finished that I was, you know, I don't know, thinking with, I guess, and I got sent the tapes. And um they were just, it was very hard to listen to them to to start, but once I started, it was really therapeutic and like um nice because it feels, it felt like she's, she was in the room or I was on the phone with her after, you know, listening for thirty five minutes, forty five minutes, an hour. So it it was

• 13:29Speaker 02

  a really unique experience because I think often when people lose their parents or loved ones, you have like some videos, these short little videos to watch or voicemails or, you know, and especially now because we don't, like in the nineties, we you'd video like the whole Christmas morning on your camcorder, you know? But now we just video these like little clips. So I found that with my brother, because my brother passed away too, where I just had these little clips of him and I would just hold on, like I would just watch them over and over again because they're so tiny, you know, and with her, I just had so much of her talking. And so it was really special and I I knew that I was really lucky to have,

• 14:14Speaker 02

  to have that. Um, and then I basically just started laying her story out and and to me, it felt like the only way to fill in the gaps that were missing was me doing it and I wasn't gonna pretend that I was her. So I thought, you know, I just have to do it in my own voice. I and it wasn't necessarily something I wanted to do, like I don't like attention on myself and I don't like kind of, you know, the way she raised me, I'll say, was to not do something like this, you know, to not kind of go out in the press and like she was very private. So I think her desire to write the book was after experiencing a lot of suffering and wanting to um

• 14:58Speaker 02

  an addiction and loss and really wanting to like help people, you know, and and feeling like, well, if I've experienced, what's the point of experiencing all this if I can't share my story and connect with people, you know, and. Though she's in a unique circumstance where she's Elvis's daughter. It's a very human story and and the themes are very human and it's about. You know, loneliness and love and loss and grief and addiction and having children and, you know. Very relatable things um. So, yeah, so so it was it back to me writing the book, it was hard. It was, I was resistant to doing it because just the idea of me like.

• 15:43Speaker 02

  Writing an autobiography just felt so out of character for me, honestly, um. So it was a bit uncomfortable, but it was kind of the only way to do it was to insert myself into the story.

• 15:55Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, I I found your parts utterly fascinating because of course. You've got an entirely different perspective and you and you're seeing. Your mum go through certain circumstances and the impact of that for everybody, I thought it was. There were there were beautiful additions to the story and really gave a a really full bodied sense of. Of who she was, and you know, you've you've said this a moment ago and and you talk about it in the book. You say that you've you've kind of spent your whole life trying to work out why she had this profound sense of. Low self-esteem and unworthiness, do you think from.

• 16:36Fearne Cotton?

  Perhaps listening to the tapes, perhaps the process of actually getting it on paper, that you're anywhere closer to to working out why?

• 16:44Speaker 02

  I think there's a few more clues that I have, you know, I think that. From the minute she was born, people had agendas with her. In their friendships and relationships, which. Would kind of make someone go, do they want to hang out with me? Like, do I have value? Or is it they want to go to Elvis's house, you know? And I can tell you from my own life experience that that's something I've experienced too, you know, like. I definitely as a as a child would have a lot of experiences where our kids would kind of say. Um, can we go to your house? Like, is your mom there? Can, you know, is Michael Jackson there? Like, that that was a lot of my childhood.

• 17:27Speaker 02

  So I can understand the feeling of like, am I, is is my friendship of any any worth to you? Am I of any worth or am I just this? Whatever kind of thing. So I think that had to do with it. And then along with the fact that she kind of was born into crazy amounts of fame and on the cover of newspapers since literally the day she was born and and the headlines were pretty, you know, cruel a lot of her life, especially in her teen years and later in her life. You know, in the nineties too, like eighties and nineties, it was pretty brutal the way that that magazines would

• 18:08Speaker 02

  would talk about women. And like, I remember as a child going to the grocery store and seeing these awful headlines like Lisa Marie, you know, photos of her saying she was fat and saying, you know, Lisa Marie is headed towards the grave, like these big headlines, like Lisa Marie is going to end up like her dad overweight and losing her mind, like just on drugs, like when she wasn't on drugs at all, you know, like just really awful things to look at yourself to see every day. And when I say every day, I mean every day, like that was that was the nineties and the early two thousands. Like it was every single day in the in the stores. It was right there. And so I think that that would make you definitely insecure.

• 18:52Speaker 02

  And I think that she just didn't also have a lot of really close relationships in her life. She didn't have a lot of friend truly like deep friendships and relationships to you know, obviously, it's ideal that we don't need that to feel our own self-worth. But I think that for her, like, I don't think she, I think there was almost like none of it, you know, so I think that she didn't really have anyone saying like, you're amazing until she was older and, you know, with my dad and some relationships she had, but I don't think she had this. Yeah. So I don't know the the one, I don't think there's one reason. I think it was just a lot of a lot of things that made her, you know, insecure.

• 19:32Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, I mean, it's an extraordinary life from day one is this. Not much normalcy there at all, and she's just having to cope and learn each day how to survive in that sort of environment. And I guess the thing that I really learned from this book, or became completely cognizant of, is the fact that she was so close to her dad. And I think, you know, you you get an inkling of that just from knowing the story and the history of Elvis and and the family dynamics, but it seemed like they had this inextricable bond. And that really, and I don't know what your thoughts are on this, that that she never actually really got over his death. It was sort of with her

• 20:17Fearne Cotton?

  every every day.

• 20:18Speaker 02

  Definitely. His death, you know, when I when I now, when I look back, the loss of him kind of dictated her whole life and and not the Elvis part, like the loss of that bond with her father. And I remember, like, I I felt like I was born, like, I I felt like since I I always knew she was in grief, you know, I could feel that from a very young age that there was sadness there. And it was her, in her eyes, the most like meaningful relationship, other than her children that she had. And kind

• 21:01Speaker 02

  of this person who was there to guide her through this crazy life of hers, she felt who left. And she felt very alone. So yes, I think they had an incredibly deep and meaningful bond. And I think that she was always looking for closeness to him throughout her life. And I don't think she really processed it either. You know, I think that she didn't talk about it as much as she she probably should have.

• 21:32Speaker 02

  And I think that a reason for that was because she was always asked about it. And I think that always being asked about it in the press and people wanting to know kind of the her response to that was a sort of like, she would feel, she, I think she would feel irritated when people would would ask her about it, because there was so much of it. But then she also didn't, because of that, she she didn't really feel, you know, safe or comfortable talking about it. So I think it was like this thing she wanted to keep private to herself, but she kept it so private. Um, that she wasn't able to really process it, maybe.

• 22:09Fearne Cotton?

  I guess when someone of that stature dies, it's almost like there's this public grief, which is a whole other very unusual flavour of grief, where it's not just about the people that are directly impacted. It's it's the fans, it's the people who have followed that individual for a long time. And their outpouring of grief can be very loud, actually. And and and I can't imagine how you would deal with that, you know, sort of rallying alongside your own experience of grief and and that personal loss of, it it's not Elvis, it's my dad, it's my guiding light, it's that person that's gone. And and I'm imagining that was just utterly confusing, and you know, and she was a child. She was a tiny kid. It's it's so much to deal with.

• 22:55Fearne Cotton?

  In the book, you you you both talk quite frequently about Graceland and that being a place where your mum really did get some comfort of being in the surroundings that were sort of left as they had been after Elvis died and her crawling into his bed and feeling that sort of sense of of closeness to him. Obviously, you didn't get to meet your maternal grandfather, but he's very much a part of your story and your blood and and your lineage. What was that like for you as a kid going to Graceland? And sort of, I guess, maybe being even more acutely aware of that grief, but also having that sense of closeness to to who he was?

• 23:34Speaker 02

  We loved going to Graceland because my mum's version of Graceland, that she's still.

• 23:42Speaker 02

  Liked to create for us was this place where she felt wild and free and connected to, she actually felt very connected to her father there and it wasn't a place of sadness at all for her. She would always visit his grave, but mostly it was a place where she felt close to her dad and like, you know, like you would feel walking into your childhood home. My childhood home doesn't exist anymore, but it, I dream about it all the time. And when I dream about it, there's this great sense of like comfort in that place. You know, I lived there from five years old or four or five years old to twenty one and, and I think that that's what she felt there, like that deep

• 24:23Speaker 02

  security of, of the childhood home and like that her connection to him was really strong there. And then she would also like go there and get on the golf carts and, you know, this is until she died, literally, like run wild and free on the lawn and, and connect to that part of herself, the, the, the younger part of herself. And I think she really felt like whole there. So we had a really good time there because it was always fun, like our experience was going to Graceland and, you know, we wouldn't really go in the house when the tours were going on, but we would go after and

• 25:08Speaker 02

  have dinner and see our family there and we could feel her joy there and how much fun she would have. And when we were younger, it was like riding around on the golf carts and eating banana pudding and, and then as we got older, it was like having a drink in the living room and dancing and, you know, so it was always a place of, of joy, you know, for, for all of us until my brother passed away. And then he was buried there. And then I think all, all of our relationships changed with the property because it just became a place of grief, you know?

• 25:42Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah. I mean, that's a hard, very jarring turn to have to take from it being somewhere that, you know, is joy filled and there's wild abandon to. God, this is now actually a tangible place of grief. That's, how do you navigate that? That's full on.

• 26:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, to be honest, when my brother was buried there, it was really hard for me to go there. My mom would go all the time because she felt a sense of closeness when she would sit in the meditation garden, probably because she was used to it with her dad her whole life, you know? And I think I didn't realise until my brother was buried there and she was buried there, like how polarising that experience would have been every time she went, like, because I'd never really experienced grief. I really felt like I understood her experience of Graceland more, having my loved ones buried there. But for me, it was hard to go. For her, she felt like sitting there in the

• 26:48Speaker 02

  in the meditation garden with my brother's body or grave and her dad's grave and her grandparents' graves. Like, she she found that comforting, whereas I didn't really totally have that experience. But you know what? Like, once I'm there, I feel happy to be there. It's just the getting up and going that I always feel, you know, apprehensive about. But I also want the relationship to Graceland and the home because it's so special to keep the like sort of life and wildness that it had for me, like for my kids and for my sisters. So I do try and bring that when I am there.

• 27:28Speaker 02

  Like, I like to go with friends, with family, so it feels like alive and we spend time in the house. So I'm I'm working on sort of recreating that relationship for for my kids and and, yeah.

• 27:43Fearne Cotton?

  Well, it's still, you know, it's it's fresh. It's not like it happened 20 years ago. You know, you're you're in the you're in the thick of it and it's it's, you know, it's a long, long, slow process, isn't it, to to change those narratives and for time to somewhat be a healer? Although, of course, it's not a linear experience necessarily. But, I mean, you you you talk in the book about You know, your brother died extremely young. He took his own life. Your mum and brother had an incredibly intense bond. And then after that loss, you did start to have a bit of fear that your mum might not stick around. Is that something that you had to really land on?

• 28:25Fearne Cotton?

  And or was that a thought that you would try and push away because it just felt just too ghastly to imagine that that would perhaps be the end of her?

• 28:35Speaker 02

  I think a lot of my life has been like a lesson in letting things be what they are and not being able to change what is. So by the time that he passed and she was living, I would say that I was more, you know, I I I always have done what I can do. And and there's a point where you have to just kind of surrender to what is. And I just knew from being close with my mum that that the idea of losing a child was a concept that she like deeply feared. She talked about it often throughout my life.

• 29:19Speaker 02

  She couldn't watch movies with parents losing children. She had friends who lost children and she would say, I wouldn't make it. You know, I I will never make it through something like that if something like that happened to me. So I just kind of knew because of what she'd said and what I'd seen, you know, what I'd seen and their closeness and the fact that he was kind of

• 29:43Speaker 02

  like her baby. And I just didn't see a way, I definitely didn't see a way for her to live and be like to keep going and and and for her to be happy, you know. What she started to do was Just accept that she was living in grief. And, and so I kind of saw a way forward for her in that way. But she definitely was not like, in, in many ways, she would say like, you know, my life is over when I lost my son. That's, that's it for me. Like, I'm here for my children, but I'm not. I don't want to be here, you know? Which is fair enough, you know? Losing a child is the worst thing that can happen to you.

• 30:27Speaker 02

  So I just, I don't know, but I was also open to her totally turning things around. And, you know, I, I tried not to have expectations, to be honest. But I definitely, the moment he died, I kind of thought, there's no way she's going to survive this. That was my instinct. And I think everyone around's instinct.

• 30:53Speaker 05

  Because you didn't just say, how can I provide these investments? You'd be, how do I holistically provide everything? How do I bring in the legal, the accounting, all this? And do it at a price point no one else is doing it.

• 31:02Speaker 06

  Learn more about how we approach wealth management at creativeplanning.com/integrated.

• 31:07Speaker 07

  This message is brought to you by the Capital One Venture X Card. Venture X offers the premium benefits you expect, like a $300 annual Capital One travel credit for less than you expect. Elevate your earn with unlimited double miles on every purchase, bringing you one step closer to your next dream destination. Plus, enjoy access to over 1,000 airport lounges worldwide. The Capital One Venture X Card. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. Lounge access is subject to change. See CapitalOne.com for details.

• 31:37Speaker 03

  At Humana, our Medicare Advantage plans are easy to understand and easy on your wallet, like offering more benefits than you'd get from original Medicare alone, and including dental, vision, and hearing coverage in every plan. And the best part is, every plan has a $0 or low monthly plan premium, which makes it easier to save, too. So this Medicare planning season, plan well with Humana. Learn more at gethumana.com. Humana is a Medicare Advantage, HMO, and PPO organization with a Medicare contract. Enrollment in any Humana plan depends on contract renewal.

• 32:10Fearne Cotton?

  Do you know what I found so extraordinary reading the book was how, you know, and I've obviously never met you, but I'm, but I know enough about you from researching you and from reading your own thoughts in this book, that you seem like an incredibly sturdy and responsible person who at times has had to hold together a lot of pieces of the family or the dynamic or the emotions or the grief or whatever. And I guess piecing that together with looking at, when you talk about your memories of being at Graceland, of reading Elvis's books on the shelves that were usually spiritual books and you could tell very much that he's searching for something and that your mother had that desire to search for some sort of comfort

• 32:54Fearne Cotton?

  or something else to, to help her through. And I wonder how you feel sort of looking back on that lineage and, you know, we can all do it. I've got a series on my mother's side of pretty poor mental health and you can kind of look back and see how this filters through the family, but there can be of course, family members in the lineage that break the chain, that do things differently for whatever reason. And I wonder if, if you feel like that, if you have broken the chain and if that's been something that you've had to give thought to, or you're not an addict, you're not, you're not in that headspace where that's gonna be a path for you.

• 33:32Speaker 02

  I think that like, it's giving me a lot of credit saying I broke the chain because I was never an addict. You know, and I think that addiction, whether it's straightforward or not, has had a huge part in both the loss of my brother and my mom. And with my mom, it was just, it was different, but I think that, you know, ultimately that experience kind of led her to this place of kind of hopelessness, you know? And so I think that the, the place she was in, the sort of hopelessness she lived in was due to the Years of addiction.

• 34:10Speaker 02

  And I think that had she not been in that situation, I think a lot of things would have been different for her and and for my brother. So I do, I do blame addiction for a lot of, a lot of uh this sort of the trauma or the, and the loss. Um, and I wasn't, like, I'd never been an addict, so I, I think that it's giving me too much credit, saying I've broken a chain when I never had that issue to deal with, you know? I hope my children don't have a, addiction issues, but I don't know how it works, you know, I don't, I don't know. Like, there's so many theories about why

• 34:49Speaker 02

  people have addiction issues or mental health issues. And I think that for me, like, something that like, I, I think that experiencing depression, experiencing pain, experiencing suffering is part of being in this world, you know, so I, I always feel hesitant to be like, you know, of course, there's mental health issues, but I, sometimes the, the, the phrasing of it bothers me because I'm like, of course, if you've got somebody in pain and suffering, they're gonna suffer. You know, and it's, and, and the phrasing of it sometimes sounds like something's wrong with them fundamentally. And I hate that. Um. I think that people experience trauma and generational trauma and

• 35:32Speaker 02

  pain and, and it's hard to live in this world. It's a, it's a, it's a really complicated world. Um. And people are so sensitive and so I think that it's, it's much more complicated than we understand. And so it's hard for me to really speak to, you know, generational trauma. With that said, there's definitely generational trauma in my family and, you know, my, my mother's father came from addiction and poverty. And I think those things are in your, your body for sure. Um, I just think that You know, and and of course, there's there's a lot of um support now for those things that there weren't back then. So yeah, I don't know. I I think that like

• 36:14Speaker 02

  taking on the sort of like responsibility of breaking the chain of my whole lineage feels like intense. Um, but I I hope that I hope and pray that uh there's you know, no more addiction, but there might be, you know, I I I think that what I've learned in in my life is to not really like have expectation, you know, and to to kind of just ride the waves, you know.

• 36:45Fearne Cotton?

  That's all we that's all we can do, isn't it? That's literally all we can do. I mean, there'll be plenty of people listening to this now who are either in the depths of grief, who have lost someone recently, who have had, you know, a succession of of loss this year, wondering how the hell you navigate life, because it's obviously it's not something you get over. It's something that you you learn to live alongside. How how would you say you've coped or how do you or may maybe there's been times when you haven't, but how are you navigating it? Because I think when you're in it, it can feel completely lonely and like nobody really understands and the world keeps spinning and people are just going about their daily business, but you're in this

• 37:26Fearne Cotton?

  thing that is so all consuming. How how have you navigated it, especially with your mum and brother? You know, passing so so close to each other.

• 37:37Speaker 02

  Um, well, I think that grief is something that changes all the time and you think you've got like a relationship with it and then it changes, you know. I think that there's early grief, which is just agony. Um, and then

• 37:53Speaker 02

  a year in, you start to feel like, you know, I'm making up this timeline or it's relative to me, but you start to feel like okay, like I can, I see that I can sort of live my life and also hold this this sadness and then you have moments of joy and moments where things feel kind of normal and then you find yourself feeling like it just happened yesterday, you know, so it's it's always changing and I think it's like. Being okay with the change, which is really uncomfortable um in life in general. And and allowing it to, I think for me, like. I know nothing ever stays the same and I find comfort in that, you know, I think that can sound uncontrollable for some people, but I think that.

• 38:38Speaker 02

  The idea that that. Emotions change, everything changes is like comforting to me that that this, if this is a hard moment, it will pass. And there will be great moments, great moments will also pass and then there will be hard moments. So I think I just again try and just ride the wave. Um but one thing I definitely do is I feel it, you know, I don't run away from it um. I don't like sit and like agony and like if there if there's a way to feel relief, I feel relief, but I I definitely won't. Um like if I have a moment where I feel emotional, I'll let myself cry or. Feel my feelings. I think feeling your feelings is probably the right thing to do, I think.

• 39:23Fearne Cotton?

  Without doubt. Oh my god, I think in every, in every single circumstance and we're not. You know, we're not used to doing it and we're certainly not taught to do that. If anything, you know, I think a a common. Way to get brought up by any parent is that when a kid's crying or a toddler that the parent's going, oh, no, don't like shush, don't don't do the crying bit and. We're sort of conditioned that we should and then obviously just through social conditioning that you're not. Either laughing hysterically or weeping in the supermarket or on the bus or whatever that you have to keep it all in and actually it's so damaging.

• 39:59Speaker 02

  That's I guess that's what I was getting at when I was saying that mental illness. Sometimes the the broad term bugs me when people are talking about depression or or anxiety or these feelings that are valid, you know.

• 40:10Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 40:11Speaker 02

  Like, we're not meant to just be happy twenty four seven. Like, this is, that's not the world we live in. So I think that. That's kind of what I'm getting at is that like. Where there's so much conditioning to not cry, to not feel angry, to not feel negative emotions at all. And I think that pushing through that in. Grief has probably been the most beneficial to me and and I think that's just because I when I do like try and push through or bottle it up, it just it results in like crazy anxiety or something else like it'll find another way to manifest, you know, so I think that um I think it's like not judging your emotions, your human emotions, of course, if they're

• 40:55Speaker 02

  so severe, then you need to get help. Um but but I think that like the way we're so hard on ourselves for having a moment of depression, having a few weeks of being anxious, having a panic attack like how could we not when we live in this wild place and we're having this crazy experience. So I try and give myself grace for my feelings because by no means am I this like perfectly level headed individual like I I'm a human and I feel a lot, you know.

• 41:26Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, do you know what I think there's such a link I've I've really experienced this one this year specifically, the link between suppressing anger and anxiety and I I had no clue about this before and I saw this brilliant I've been seeing this brilliant therapist this year and and I was having all sorts of crazy anxiety and panic attacks for years and years and years. And she was like, I think if you really, really got in touch with what you're angry about and you really felt it, then you would not have this anxiety. And I was like, what a load of shit, but I sure. And then this year have worked really specifically on that. I haven't had a panic attack in probably nearly a year, like not one, because I'm just

• 42:10Fearne Cotton?

  feeling that and I think especially for women, like feeling anger is such a no no for some reason.

• 42:16Speaker 02

  And you're British, like you're totally.

• 42:18Fearne Cotton?

  I'm British, I'm fucked.

• 42:21Speaker 02

  No, I think that that's I actually saw like Gabor Maté say something about that, like how how women. Um and it makes total sense to me, you know, I think that that there's a lot of anger and and and and rage even with your parents, with your school teacher, with whoever, your partners and and females are not really. Conditioned to feel those things. Even in my household, like if I was to yell at my mom as a kid, and this is also just a generational thing. She was an amazing mother. She would have been like, don't you dare talk to me like that, you know? Whereas now it's like, let them be angry, let them feel, you know? Um, but that was, that was parenting and, and, and, and I think that, that, that.

• 43:05Speaker 02

  So definitely, there's a lot of, I think repressed, I've also felt that, like, repressed anger leading to, to anxiety for sure. Or repressed sadness, repressed anger.

• 43:15Fearne Cotton?

  Repressed anything, we've just got to let it out. I think it's so, it's so, and giving yourself the time and space and just to let yourself feel a bit shit or whatever it is, it's so, it's underestimated how, how powerful that can be. And I think it's really beautiful advice for people that are in it now to not try and rush the process or get to the other side. It's like you just, you have to be in it, whatever it is, if it's loss or anger or whatever, just to be in it rather than to bypass it because you kind of can't. If anything, you're probably delaying the whole thing.

• 43:46Speaker 02

  For sure. I think that's really the thing is like, you're suppressing emotions, like it's going to come at some point. So it's, I think a little bit of the only way out is through in a sense.

• 44:00Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, yeah, without, without a doubt. The other thing I've found um, really beautiful in the book is, is your mum and dad's relationship. Because you know, after they broke up and your mum got remarried and had different partners, your dad was always about and it was just a really lovely sort of beautiful partnership that they seemed to keep throughout your mum's entire life. What was that for you? As, as a child, what was that like? Or was just a young person growing up, knowing that, you know, they weren't together, but they actually had a really incredible partnership going on?

• 44:37Speaker 02

  As a child, my perception of my parents for a long time, like into my early, late teens, early twenties, was that I had the most amazing, wildly colourful, eccentric, incredible like parents, like, and I, and they were, I don't want to say that changed, but I think things got a little more like intense in my twenties. And so I just felt lucky, like I always felt lucky. I remember as a child feeling so lucky that my dad was my dad and my mom was my mom, like, and my life was my life. Like, I really felt grateful. I remember

• 45:16Speaker 02

  moments of being in the bathroom and going, God, I'm so lucky. Like, what did I do to be this lucky? And I don't know why I felt so lucky. I think I just felt like real love and unconditional love. Um, and I just loved them so much. Um, and I think that that's surprisingly unique in in a family. So maybe I just knew that, I guess, as a child, but I I felt lucky for their relationship. He was always around, you know, I said in the book, but I didn't even know that the Michael Jackson situation had upset my dad. Until I could see he was, you know, he came back from this one trip and I heard a phone call, but they were so, they really prioritized, uh,

• 46:02Speaker 02

  which it was not like a big thing in the nineties, you know, like conscious uncoupling or whatever.

• 46:07Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 46:08Speaker 02

  Like, the they they were doing that, like, probably before anybody.

• 46:12Fearne Cotton?

  They beat Gwyneth and Chris. They beat them.

• 46:15Speaker 02

  So I just felt like, I knew I had a unique situation because I also had friends who didn't have that, you know, dynamic with divorced parents. And um, when I would tell people, like, my dad lives with us, often people would kind of go, what? You know, you know, I'd be like, oh, yeah, my dad lives in the guest house and my stepdad lives in the house and we're all going on tour together.

• 46:39Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, it's great.

• 46:40Speaker 02

  And so I, but I was aware of it, you know, I think that something I've felt really lucky for in my life is I'm always aware of the good moments and and like, I never, I never, I've never found myself looking back going, God, I wish I appreciated that more, you know, um, because I I always felt really grateful.

• 46:59Fearne Cotton?

  How beautiful. I love that so much. And it it's also intriguing in the book, you know, your mum's incredibly honest about her relationship with Michael Jackson and they seem to really connect on a level that You know, I, I, it's sort of unbelievable how there was maybe a mirror held up to each other and they just connected in that way. What do you think it was? What were they giving each other in that moment? Because it was very quick, it was very intense, they were completely in love with each other. What, what was that dynamic about?

• 47:30Speaker 02

  I think that there were a lot of things they related on firstly, you know, they were both living these like very isolated lives in these sort of ivory towers and it's a really unique experience. So I think that when you're living that way, it's also hard to really trust people and connect with people when everybody around you is wanting something from you. And so I think there was a comfort in that they both kind of were living that experience. They both knew what it, you know, what it was like to leave the house and have this sort of circus that would follow them. Like it was a very similar lived experience. So I think that there was that. And then there was also just like a

• 48:15Speaker 02

  human connection. She just fell in love with him, you know, my mom was somebody who could not live her life inauthentically, like in any moment of her life, to a point where it would make people extremely uncomfortable. You know, if she didn't like something, she wouldn't go. If she didn't like somebody, she would leave. If she didn't like her husband, she would get divorced. Like she would, you know, I think that I understand as an adult that there was like question around like whether or not it was like a PR thing. And you know, that's just like, there's no, you know, anyone who knows my mom knows that she'd be completely incapable of that. So she just, she fell in love with him. It was pretty straightforward, you know?

• 48:57Fearne Cotton?

  I'm so inspired by everything you've just, I want to basically be everything you've just said. Like I want, I want to like not waste ti- like life is short. I don't want to waste time doing shit I don't want to do and hang out with people I don't want to hang out with. Like how do you get there? How do you do that?

• 49:13Speaker 02

  I don't know. I don't know. She just was maybe born that way. And it was like, So it and I think that quality is so admirable, though it would make people uncomfortable a lot. Um, she just never lived a moment in any sort of lie. Or or or or micro lie, or how are you good? She wouldn't say good if she wasn't good. You know, and so like, I think there's something to be learned there in that sort of level of like, living authentically for sure and honestly.

• 49:46Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, I think we're all so nervous to make people feel uncomfortable or for people to all people not like us. We don't. We don't like that feeling. And I'm always so sort of magnetized towards people that do not care. They don't care. They're just themselves. I find it. It's the most tantalizing quality.

• 50:04Speaker 02

  It is. It is. And I think she she it's funny because she was insecure. And she wanted friends and she wanted to fall in love and to be loved, but she also did not care if people didn't like her. And I think that that was really liberating to live that way.

• 50:21Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, without a doubt. And I think, you know, everything in the book, every story, every gap that you filled in. Just is so demonstrative of how wonderfully complex she was, like we all are, that you can be both. You can be vulnerable and insecure, but very, very certain as to who you are and how you want to live in certain ways. And it's, um. Oh, I just loved it. I loved I loved reading the book so much and I and I. I can't even imagine how tough it was at times and and, you know, and like you said at the start of this, even doing these chats is fucking draining and you have to go over. Stuff that's really painful. So I'm I'm deeply appreciative of your time today and um. It's just been so lovely to talk to you. Thank you so much, Riley.

• 51:05Speaker 02

  Thank you so much for having me. It's been wonderful and I hope you have a good evening, evening day.

• 51:11Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, I'm hurtling towards that. It's like lunchtime. It's lunchtime.

• 51:13Speaker 02

  Lunchtime. Have a good lunch.

• 51:16Fearne Cotton?

  Thanks, Riley.

• 51:19Fearne Cotton?

  I love that. You know, obviously, there's that bit at the start where Riley talks about having her interview with Taylor Jenkins Reid and Taylor having this very light chat because obviously it's a lot to talk about. And I was obviously aware that I didn't do that, that we did go in quite heavy at times. But I never wanted to push Riley into an area she didn't feel comfortable going into. So I really hope for you and Riley that I got the balance right and it felt like a chat that wasn't in any way exploitative or going into areas that she wasn't comfy with. You know, she seemed pretty naturally loquacious about the areas that she knew would probably be important to hear. And I really thank her for that because I'm pretty sure, like me, you got

• 52:02Fearne Cotton?

  a lot from that, whether it's grief you're going through or suppressing emotions or dealing with different family members. I honestly urge you to read this bloody book. It's so good. Lisa Marie Presley's memoir, which Riley helped write and finish. It's called From Here to the Great Unknown, and it's out right now. Another book you obviously have to read is Daisy Jones and the Six. If you haven't, bloody hell. If you haven't, you're in for the best treat. I'm jealous. I've chatted to author Taylor Jenkins Reid on Happy Place. There'll definitely be a link to that episode in the show notes if you want to listen to that. Taylor is amazing, my hero. Also, are you following Happy Place on Instagram? I bloody love it when you guys have a natter together in the comments. We are at Happy Place Official. Sometimes we post really profound moments from the podcast

• 52:47Fearne Cotton?

  that you can learn from. Other times, it's silly memes. We do it all. We like to have a laugh at ourselves. Both are important. All right, you lovely lot. Until next time, a massive thank you again to Riley, to the producer, Anushka Tate, at Happy Place Studios, and to you. I think you're brilliant. Thank you.

• 53:30Speaker 03

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• 53:33Speaker 04

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• 53:44Speaker 03

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• 54:00Speaker 07

  This message is brought to you by the Capital One Venture X Card. Venture X offers the premium benefits you expect, like a $300 annual Capital One travel credit for less than you expect. Elevate your earn with unlimited double miles on every purchase, bringing you one step closer to your next dream destination. Plus, enjoy access to over 1,000 airport lounges worldwide. The Capital One Venture X Card. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. Lounge access is subject to change. See CapitalOne.com for details.

• 54:31Speaker 03

  At Humana, our Medicare Advantage plans are easy to understand and easy on your wallet, like offering more benefits than you'd get from original Medicare alone, and including dental, vision, and hearing coverage in every plan. And the best part is, every plan has a $0 or low monthly plan premium, which makes it easier to save, too. So this Medicare planning season, plan well with Humana. Learn more at GetHumana.com. Humana is a Medicare Advantage, HMO, and PPO organization with a Medicare contract. Enrollment in any Humana plan depends on contract renewal.