The Dynamo mask protected me: Steven Frayne copes with Crohn’s and feeling unworthy

Dynamo brought epic magic into a lot of people’s lives, but now Steven Frayne is taking off the mask and choosing to notice the moments of magic he’s experienced around him. In particular, that’s the people – friends, family, doctors, strangers – who’ve helped him find joy again after hitting rock bottom. In this chat with Fearne, Steven talks about the devastating reality of trialling different medication for Crohn’s and the effect this has on mental health, as well as what he’s learnt from experiencing so much physical pain. Can we choose to connect over pain rather than isolating ourselves from others? Steven also explains how being an easy target for bullies at school meant he learnt how to problem solve and hustle, but what do you do when success comes and you don’t know how to cope with it? Steven’s show, Up Close and Magical https://underbellyboulevard.com/tickets/steven-frayne/, is at The Underbelly in Soho, and is opening on the 28th March. CONTENT WARNING: This episode contains frank chat about suicidal ideation so do take care while listening. If you liked this episode of Happy Place, you might also like: Kesha https://pod.fo/e/17dee1 Ben West https://pod.fo/e/29cbdf Adam Pearson https://pod.fo/e/286eca Child on the line is a three-part documentary podcast series celebrating the Volunteer Counsellors of Childline, and the brave children & young people who contact the helpline service. Listen here: https://www.childonthelinepodcast.com/ Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Hi, I'm Natalie Dormer and I'm proud to be an ambassador for Childline. This year, Childline turns 40. To mark it, I've made Child on the Line, a three-part documentary podcast. We hear why children needed a helpline in 1986, how it was built against the odds and the challenges children face today, from abuse and mental health to social media and AI. Search Child on the Line and listen wherever you get your podcasts.

• 0:28Fearne Cotton?

  Before we start, this episode contains chat that you might find difficult to hear, so do check the show notes if you want more details.

• 0:36Fearne Cotton?

  Hello and a massive welcome to Happy Place with me, Fern Cotton. This is the show that lets you take off the mask you've been wearing. Today, I'm chatting to Stephen Frayne.

• 0:46Speaker 02

  As Dynamo, I could do all these incredible things, impossible things. But yet, on the flip side here, as Stephen, I found myself in hospital beds, not even able to get out of bed, not even able to do the simplest of tasks. The oxymoron of a magician who can't even make himself a cup of tea. I couldn't fake it anymore. I was in so much discomfort and I felt so low in my life. I'm like, I can't pretend. So I do actually look at the kind of hitting rock bottom as possibly the best thing that ever happened to me.

• 1:18Fearne Cotton?

  I hope you're all good and well and are finding little moments of time to do things that you like doing for yourself. I know that sounds quite basic, but that's often the thing I forget to do, like nice little things for me. It's obviously hard when you're, well, just a human, quite frankly, but definitely with working kids in the mix. But I've recently really tried to get back into my painting. I know I've talked about this before, but I'm really into painting hands at the moment. I did a little portrait of my own hands, self-indulgent, the other day, and it was so relaxing and so lovely. I had a day off work and I thought, I'm not going to waste it by just pottering about doing F all. And I just loved it and it boosted me and perked me up for days. So I really hope that you're getting time to do that.

• 2:02Fearne Cotton?

  Next step for me, going to an art gallery. God, that feels luxurious and decadent, but I really want to go to the National Portrait Gallery, which is my Favorite gallery ever. So hopefully I'm going to do that. But yeah, that's me saying to you, do the same. Giving you permission. I don't know who I am to do such a thing, but um giving you permission to do the same. Do something nice for yourself today after you've listened to this. Because this is a great episode, which I think you're going to really, really love. So you might know Stephen better as magician Dynamo, but now it's time to properly get to know Stephen. And I think you really will in this chat. He's currently gearing up for his residency at the Underbelly in Soho, which is his return to the stage after 10

• 2:45Fearne Cotton?

  years. And I cannot wait to see this show. We talked a lot about his childhood, which you may or may not know about, growing up on a council estate, his dad wasn't around, his mum was a teenager, bullying, etc. All of that is in this chat. We also talked about lifting that mask off of being Dynamo, the pressure that character essentially was causing, and how liberating it is to now just be himself. We also talked about how his Crohn's has affected his mental health. I mean severely. And you'll have to listen to find out how and why, but he tells the story extremely eloquently, considering it's a tough one to tell. And

• 3:25Fearne Cotton?

  of course, we talk about magic and how it has just this incredible power to make any observers feel childlike again, having that sense of awe, watching something your brain can't quite understand. It's so amazing. And he did load a magic for us on the day. It's mind blowing. You're just like, have you done that? It's ridiculous. Oh, it was just lovely chatting to Stephen.

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• 5:19Fearne Cotton?

  Okay, here we go. This is the show.

• 5:43Fearne Cotton?

  Hello Stephen.

• 5:43Speaker 02

  How are you doing?

• 5:44Fearne Cotton?

  I'm really good. We haven't seen each other for four and a bit, five years, four years? It was 2020 that you came on the podcast last and I haven't seen you since.

• 5:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, literally straight after the podcast, I got Covid.

• 5:59Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 6:00Speaker 02

  And yeah, that kind of wiped me out for a bit. And then I kind of disappeared for a while myself as well whilst I was having to find new medications to help with my illness, so.

• 6:10Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, I mean, we've got so much to catch up on. You've had many health issues since then. You had a bad bout of Crohn's that was brought on by food poisoning, right?

• 6:20Speaker 02

  Yes, yeah, I can't put it back to food poisoning, which caused my Crohn's to spread to a different part of my bowel. And that came with a whole new set of side effects and new challenges to try and face. But, you know, I'm coming out the other side. I'm a, you know, I still have bad days, but I've more good than bad. So that's all I can ask for, really.

• 6:39Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, I mean, you are this amazingly resilient being that seems to bounce back from setbacks almost constantly. And that, we can kind of root that back to childhood even. But even with this last bout of illness, you know, it was extreme. You had arthritis was one of the symptoms from this bout of Crohn's. And then that impacted your mental health because you weren't as able to do the things that you love, obviously. Would you say that was your rock bottom, the lowest place you've been to mentally?

• 7:07Speaker 02

  I think it got worse than that. My ultimate rock bottom was in the end of 2020. I actually, you know, I tried to take my own life. So, I mean, it didn't really get much lower than that. But thankfully, my wife found me and, you know, helped me get the help I needed. And, you know, five years later, and here we are.

• 7:31Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 7:32Speaker 02

  And I'm definitely in a happy place.

• 7:33Fearne Cotton?

  So glad.

• 7:34Speaker 02

  This is the perfect place to, to share some stories of magic and wonder and all the exciting things that I've kind of been working on that's keeping me going.

• 7:41Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, exactly. I mean, it's incredible to see you thriving and doing what you do best and making many people happy with your magic and doing shows and making TV. But it is obviously a long journey to go from that level of rock bottom, like you say, actually attempting to take your own life, to now sitting here feeling good and buoyed up and physically better. How, I mean, it's, I know it's not a linear path. I know there's not one trick or quick fix to go from feeling that desperate and awful to where you're at now. But what would you say have been the key things that have helped you get to where you are now?

• 8:21Speaker 02

  Ultimately, I think it boils down to great people around me. Um, I mentioned my wife, uh, my doctors, uh, the therapist, uh, and also my friends. And I think also people that I have never met before, but taking a step back and kind of looking at the world and seeing the support that people gave me, even people that didn't know me, the support that they gave me, that was like a different type of magic that I'd never really felt before. I think I'd spent so many years focused on the magic that I do and focused on trying to, trying to basically be as good as I can be at what I do. And then when suddenly I was not able to do that,

• 9:03Speaker 02

  it forced me to open my eyes to the magic around me and seeing all that support, just that changed everything. And I realised that I wasn't alone in this. And I also realised that it's not about the magic I do, it's about the magic that is happening in the background, in the world, like the doctors of the NHS, like what they do. You know, just, it's so easy for you as a person to help somebody else brighten up their day and that moment can change everything for them. And I've felt that myself. Um, so it's kind of, it's rejuvenated my, my love for life.

• 9:42Fearne Cotton?

  Hmm. How amazing. I mean, it is those tiny little moments, tiny little connections with other people that I think do save lives. And, you know, I, I didn't try and take my own life, but I was very, very depressed, you know, over 10 years ago. And it was really two people that I will thank forever that they didn't even do anything necessarily specific or special, but I absolutely knew they weren't judging me and they were there for me. And there was just something about that transaction with those two individuals who weren't even actually my sort of best, best friends at the time, but they really, I think, sort of, um.

• 10:21Fearne Cotton?

  Pushed past awkwardness and potential pushback from me to make sure they were properly checking in with me and I knew they were there for me and it is it is those little connections that that can be life changing completely, it's amazing.

• 10:39Speaker 02

  You you mentioned it there, but connections in general.

• 10:41Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 10:42Speaker 02

  And I think often when we lose ourself, it's because we lose connection with the world or with the people in it and we feel that it's impossible to get that connection back.

• 10:52Fearne Cotton?

  Hmm.

• 10:53Speaker 02

  But I think one of the things I realised is that everybody in one way, shape or form feels that lack of connection on a day to day basis and I think there's nothing wrong with like reaching out and you know, asking someone for help or asking someone how they're doing if you if you see them not looking the best because sometimes they just are waiting for someone to kind of come and give them a helping hand.

• 11:16Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, without a doubt, it's always worth, you know, if you're sort of thinking, should I check in with that person, should I ask, is it any of my business, I think it's always worth making sure and just checking with someone that they're okay or pushing that bit harder if you're sort of assuming something's not quite right. Did you know that you were on a slippery slope mentally before that or was it one of those moments where you're like, snap decision out of the blue, I don't want to be here anymore?

• 11:42Speaker 02

  I think it was a combination of first off, my Crohn's got so bad that every single day I was just in so much pain. Even even today, every morning I wake up and for the first hour and a half, I'm in discomfort and I take my medication and slowly it kicks in, I do my treatments and you know, give me a couple of hours and I'm I feel like ready to face the world, but every single day, you know, it's a challenge. So I think having the illness get so bad that I didn't want to face that anymore, you know, I couldn't see the positives in being around to put myself through that difficult time to get to the goodness, right?

• 12:28Speaker 02

  And then I got Covid and my body actually did quite well with the Covid, but it built up antibodies to battle it. And the problem was that the medication I was on at the time, a medication called infliximab, which is you have, you go to a hospital and you sit in the Pitu clinic and have like eight hours worth of medication put in through an IV, right? Now, that had been working amazingly, which was what led me to make the TV show I made the last time we were here, Beyond Belief in two thousand and twenty, which we talked about. And it got me well enough. But then suddenly, after Covid, that medication stopped working. And when you have to find a new medication, which thankfully the NHS,

• 13:12Speaker 02

  you know, they put everything into trying to help me find some new medication. But you have to trial something for three months before you can write it off. And I can sometimes feel in the first week that it's not working. But then I know it's not working, but I still have to keep trying it for three months and going through that toil and pain and discomfort to eventually write it off and then get permission to start another trial. It's torture. So I trialed medications for, for over, I'd say, it's about nine months to a year of trying different medications where they just weren't working. So it was a whole year where, and also when you take the medications, they have their own side effects. So like,

• 13:55Speaker 02

  I was getting different symptoms and, and I think I was on a cocktail of medicines at one point where I was taking like twenty nine tablets a day. And although it eventually started to numb the pain, it definitely made me numb to the world at, at the same time. I didn't feel like I was, I'd control my own body. And thankfully now I'm down to two tablets a day. I don't know if I'll ever get down to zero, but I'll take two tablets a day for the rest of my life because I'm, you know, I'm feeling a lot again and I'm enjoying so much. I'm enjoying creating magic. I'm definitely not in that place that I was back then. But I think when you combine all those different things, plus with all the medication, there's possibly a bit of, you know, psychosis happening because of

• 14:38Speaker 02

  all the meds that I was on, because it can't be good for, for you long term mentally. And The fact that I wasn't able to perform as well, you know, I was not able to perform at full capacity. And the thing that's always lifted me up when I felt down is going out and performing magic.

• 14:54Fearne Cotton?

  And potentially a big part of your identity that is then missing, is that part of it?

• 14:59Speaker 02

  Oh, totally.

• 15:00Fearne Cotton?

  Because it's been in your life since you were a tiny kid, so then to all of a sudden lose that, you know, was there a sense of who the hell am I without that?

• 15:08Speaker 02

  Oh, a million percent. Like, I still definitely have elements of in processing during now, you know, I'm performing again now, but I still think, oh, am I as good as I was? Will people still like what I'm gonna do? You know, there's certain limitations I have that I didn't have when I was a bit younger and, you know, first starting out. But I guess that comes with old age as well, you know, I'm getting on a little bit now, so I can't put that all down to the Crohn's disease. But, yeah, you know, I think it's scary doing something for over half your life. Because I've been doing magic, I was performing as Dynamo since I was like nineteen years old.

• 15:48Speaker 02

  I'm forty-two now, so I've been Dynamo longer in my life than I've been Steven in some respects. And then when that alter ego of me feels like I'm unable to go out and perform as that person, then suddenly, who am I? You know, like, what is my purpose in life if I can't share my magic?

• 16:07Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, well, I mean, that whole period was so interesting. And again, I haven't spoken to you since, you know, you've lost the name Dynamo and you've done this act of burial, which felt very ceremonial, watching it. Like, it was something, not only that you were making an entertaining TV show and doing something spectacular, but it was needed, that act of ritual to go, that is now dead to me and I'm moving into a new chapter. Does it feel different performing as yourself? Have you lost a suit of armour in terms of losing that alter ego? And was there sort of a sense of protection, I guess, with that name and alter ego?

• 16:42Speaker 02

  There was definitely, for years, a sense of protection from living behind the mask of Dynamo, so to speak. But at the same time, at the height of it, I feel like it also played a big part in me being scared to perform.

• 17:01Fearne Cotton?

  How so?

• 17:02Speaker 02

  Because... As Dynamo, I could do all these incredible things, impossible things. But yet, on the flip side here, as Stephen, I found myself in hospital beds, not even able to get out of bed, not even able to do the simplest of tasks. So, the oxymoron of a magician who can't even make himself a cup of tea. Do you know what I mean? I'm from Yorkshire, we love tea, Yorkshire tea particularly.

• 17:25Fearne Cotton?

  That's a big lobs.

• 17:26Speaker 02

  But like, you know, for me not to be able to do that, it, it like, it was super scary because I'd, I'd stay at home, I'd basically become a bit of a recluse, I wouldn't wanna walk out on the street in case someone stopped me and says, ah, can you show us some magic? Because I'd feel like I wasn't worthy of it, I feel like I wasn't good enough. So, it definitely is a scary thing. I think also, you know, it's quite scary sometimes just being yourself.

• 17:54Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, it is because if someone gives you, and you know, we, we're all exposed to this to some extent now because of social media, but when you're in the public eye and you're performing or creating whatever it is as yourself, not as an actor, you've got one less layer of skin per se. So if someone says to you, I think you're a piece of shit, or you're annoying or whatever, which, you know, I've certainly had all the abuse over the years for decades, you do question yourself. You can't say, oh, but that was just the character, or I could have maybe done that differently. It's like, oh my god, but that's inherently who I am. Do I have to change, or is there something wrong with me? I think it makes you question so much. And I guess with Dynamo, again, you had that suit of armour of, it's a character, it's an alter ego.

• 18:36Fearne Cotton?

  Whereas now, if someone says something negative towards you, and I'm sure you don't get it that often, because what you're doing is, you know, it's showmanship and it's entertainment, but it still hurts that bit more, would you say?

• 18:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, because if I'm performing as myself, just as Stephen, and don't get me wrong, like, Stephen, there's always gonna be part of me that is the Dynamo character, you know. A lot of the, I'd like to think the best parts of Dynamo were actually Stephen in the first place, right? But if I'm performing as myself, I'm kind of exposed, I'm out there, and if they have anything negative to say about that performance, they are directly targeting it at Stephen. Stephen, you know, I don't have the name to hide behind, you know, I'm literally having to take it on the chin. And hopefully, hopefully I like to take, take any negative things and use them to help build character.

• 19:27Fearne Cotton?

  Mmm, so positive spin on it for sure.

• 19:29Speaker 02

  I try, you know, when my nana was alive, she always used to say I had a sunny disposition. So I would always, you know, I always try and, you know, look at the glass as being like half full.

• 19:40Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, I mean, you did this even when you were in hospital, you know, I loved, in your new show Miracles, which me and my kids were completely transfixed by this show. And talked about it for weeks afterwards. Some of the magic you're doing in this show is unfathomable. It's just like the, I don't want to give it away for people that haven't seen, but the end trick that you do with the umbrella, we were just freaked out completely. It was so, and it was so beautiful, it was so moving, but many of the magic tricks in that show were inspired by you being in so much pain in hospital. And looking at the relationship between human beings and pain. And I guess how much of that is mentally ramped up versus physically felt? Do you think, I mean, you know, they were incredible tricks where you were sort of testing yourself with levels of pain.

• 20:25Fearne Cotton?

  Do you think that looking at your illness through the lens of magic has helped you manage the pain that you feel? Is there, is there a way where mentally we can control that relationship we have with physical pain?

• 20:39Speaker 02

  I think it's flipping the word pain on its head and just basically, it's not pain. It's something that you can use as an experience and take that into your own life. You can learn from it in a positive way, I think is what I'm trying to say, right? You know, I've had lots of negative experiences in my life, as have many people listening, you know, and every day, you know, people are having difficult times. But I think the thing that helps you build strength is getting through those difficult times and being able to look back on them. And look at the experiences that you learned and things you took away from it. Some obviously negative things will be things that you think about.

• 21:21Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 21:21Speaker 02

  But then the fact that you got through it, like that's an achievement.

• 21:25Fearne Cotton?

  Hmm. I mean, it's a fine line, isn't it, between, because I totally, I totally do that myself and, and, and like to try and think in that mindset when I can. But I think when you've been through something shit, whether it's physically, mentally, circumstantially, you can also fall into the trap of dreading it happening again, especially with ill health, when, you know, you know that you may have health challenges for the rest of your life. How do you stop your mind from going to the place of, I cannot endure going through what I went through again if it happens in a year, two years? How do you stop yourself from going there?

• 21:58Speaker 02

  I can't live in the fear that that's gonna be the case. I know it always in the back of my mind might happen, but I have to just try my best to take care of myself and focus my energies on, on my art. You know, magic is, is the way I speak to the world.

• 22:14Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 22:14Speaker 02

  So I take everything negative and I write about it in my notebooks, which it's, they're notebooks, but it's not necessarily like a diary. It's just, it's my magic books that I write all the different ideas in. And sometimes by writing about my problems, this was actually recommended by my, my therapist, Edward Sim. He told me to, you know, when you think negative things, rather than just act on them, write them down in your notebook. And sometimes if you look back at the negative time you were going through, a week later, you're like, why was I even worried about that?

• 22:44Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 22:45Speaker 02

  You know what I mean? Because time is, you know, it is a great healer. I know that's a cliche to say, but it really is for me. And I write these ideas down, but then sometimes I'll start writing and, you know, writing about a bad day. And then suddenly my mind will open up and it'll give me a new magic idea. And then, but what started off as a passage about a bad day becomes a whole idea for a whole new piece of magic that can be in a new TV show. And then suddenly I'm excited and I'm no longer in that bad place. I'm suddenly in a positive place. And, you know, I guess it's like, I always try and approach my career like a musician because growing up, the people at the youth club that were around me that inspired me, they were into music and into dance.

• 23:30Speaker 02

  So they would express themselves through dance and through making songs. And.

• 23:36Speaker 02

  I would kind of take that blueprint, but I would write down my, my magic ideas are like my song lyrics. And if you look at the artists that we kind of admire possibly the most, especially me anyway, you know, people like Eminem, Amy Winehouse, Linkin Park, like the musicians and the writers of these songs, they often put their pain into the art. Yeah, it's okay. And made something beautiful from it. You know, like Amy didn't have an easy life, right? You know, Eminem, well, we know about all of his wars. Yep. Um, so, you know, I think inspired by seeing what they've done and how they've transformed something negative into something positive, that is in one sense, real magic.

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• 26:26Fearne Cotton?

  It's so interesting how pain often connects people much more intensely than, say, joy. And I know joy can create lovely connections and you can eat with people and laugh and have a great time. But often it's we think that pain's gonna equal rejection or being ostracized from other people. But actually, it's so connective. You know, there'll be people listening to this now who will have Crohn's or will have tried to take their own life or have someone in their life that has. And then instantly, you've got that connection with them. You've got that common ground where you can, you understand each other and you get each other. And I think, obviously, that's why those songs and these artists we've talked about resonate. Because we're all going, yeah, I felt like that or I feel it. And the same with your magic.

• 27:10Fearne Cotton?

  You know, it's not just you're doing a trick that wows people. There's emotion in there. And I think certainly with miracles, you can really tell the depths of that and the fact that you've drawn from these places of pain and discomfort and made something good out of it. It's a really amazing process. I mean, when did you start realizing that magic could be cathartic in that way? Because I'm sure you didn't start with that thought as a kid, like, this is gonna heal me or solve my problems. You know, you're doing it, you're a showman and you want people to be wowed. But it seems now that it's sort of cutting deeper with you, maybe.

• 27:46Speaker 02

  Definitely. I think ultimately, you touched on it a little bit there when you talked about how, you know, sometimes the pain can connect deeper with people. And I think it's the fact that we share joy, right? But we don't often share pain. But we all go through pain and we sometimes think that we're the only ones going through it at the time. So we don't wanna burden other people with our problems. So we often, we'll often hide behind fake joy to try and, you know, show a good face in front of people, sharing in the joyous times. But then we go home back to our pain. And I think, I've

• 28:26Speaker 02

  kind of had to accept that, you know what, there's only so much, you can't fake, I couldn't fake it anymore. Do you know what I mean? I was in so much discomfort and I felt so low in my life that I'm like, I can't pretend, you know. And if people don't like the person that's left over, if people ridicule me for feeling weak or feeling, you know, like down at some of these times, then I have to just take that as a reflection on them, not on myself. And I have to focus on just getting myself into a good place where I can't let anything hurt me. And it's not to say that things won't hurt me. It's not to like, kind of shield myself too much. You know, I think it's just embracing the fact that sometimes

• 29:11Speaker 02

  I'm gonna have a bad day, you know. I've got Crohn's disease, I've got used to it now. I got diagnosed when I was 14. So I know, like, even with my medication now, I have five good days a week and two bad days where I'm wiped out because the meds wipe me out. But that's five incredible opportunities to do all the things I wanna do in life, you know, and two days to spend in bed. Do you know what I mean? Like, win-win.

• 29:33Fearne Cotton?

  It's a pretty good balance. But, you know, but that's, that's me being completely reductive. Because of course, I'm sure you'd love to seven days out and about doing your thing. But you've, again, put a positive, or your sunny disposition has allowed you to have that gratitude for the time you have got, going out and doing something you love and creating and engaging with people. Do you think you've always been like that? Because, you know, your history, your childhood is well documented. You didn't have the easiest ride. Your dad wasn't about, he was in prison, your mum had you at a very young age. You've had setbacks or certainly big hurdles and challenges to deal with since you were a tiny kid. And like I said at the start, you know, we've seen you bounce back from things,

• 30:17Fearne Cotton?

  from big challenges, whether it's health, mental health or otherwise. Is that just your nature that you are able to find this resilience, find this positive spin on things? Or does it take an immense amount of work and courage and?

• 30:33Fearne Cotton?

  I don't know, just sort of mental flexibility to be able to keep bouncing back.

• 30:38Speaker 02

  I think, well, I'm gonna start by saying it takes an incredible amount of work. I think to, to survive anything, to be good at anything, you know, it takes a huge amount of effort. And, you know, that can't be undermined at all. But I think if I go right back to the beginning, right, and when I say to the beginning, I mean, right back to the beginning, before I was even born, right? I was born six weeks premature, right? And also my mum, she fell pregnant with me at 16, right? Um, she had me at 17, but like, I definitely was an accident, right? So I wasn't meant to be here.

• 31:20Speaker 02

  And then, you know, from the beginning, I came out into the world way too early, right? And then I was on, you know, like life support and that, you know, they wasn't sure if I was gonna survive. And then I lived on, you know, we lived on a council estate in Bradford. We lived on multiple council estates, we were council estate hoppers, um, you know, we tried them all out. Um, you know, I've got friends in all different areas. And trying to, you know, my mum was, you know, my dad was away in his, you know, um, serving his Majesty's pleasure. And my mum was looking after me on her own. She was also trying to find herself in the world and we were, you know, not in the best surroundings. So from the off, like, it was a challenge, you know, I was born into a struggle. And also my, my mum, my mum is white, she's English, right?

• 32:05Speaker 02

  And my father was um, Patan. So like, growing up, think about this, in Bradford City, back in the, you know, back in the eighties.

• 32:13Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 32:13Speaker 02

  Right? When the world wasn't as forgiving or as accepting as it is today. That was a difficult challenge in itself. So from the off.

• 32:24Speaker 02

  I've, I was faced with adversity, but I didn't know that it was adversity. Cause I was too young, right?

• 32:31Fearne Cotton?

  It's your normal.

• 32:32Speaker 02

  So it, it became my normal. And then I decided, you know, of, uh, uh, this was, I don't know if this was just, it seemed like a good idea now. But back then, you know, of all the things that I wanted to try and make it as, you know, a magician. You know, like I can count on my hand, the number of magicians that have become, you know, like super successful. That we all know, right? So to even think that that's the way that I'm gonna make it off the estate, that I'm gonna make it, you know.

• 33:00Fearne Cotton?

  It's one in a billion.

• 33:01Speaker 02

  Everything. So, you know, I think that I was born to do this in one way, shape or form. And I was born to face the struggle. But I feel like now when I do it, I used to perform for me, right? Now I feel like I perform to show other people that we can do impossible things. We can do a lot more than we give ourselves credit for. You know, there'll be a kid on an estate now who might see my story and decide that, you know, they've got a passion for something and they're gonna go for it. Um, you know, there'll be somebody like you say, listening that might also have chronic disease, who don't know whether they think they can make it. Uh, I'm sitting here saying that, that you can, you know, I've, I've had it for a long time now.

• 33:47Speaker 02

  And I've found a way to deal with it. And yeah, sometimes you get bad days. But life isn't, life sucks and downs.

• 33:55Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 33:55Speaker 02

  You know, and if you had just ups all the time, that'd be a very hard life to live up to. And I feel like, I think that's why I feel that when I was performing as Dynamo and I was on that ascension and it was getting, you know, going from strength to strength to strength. And we're doing all these incredible things, you know, touring the world, making TV shows, winning awards. Like it almost was like too much goodness that I just wasn't used to.

• 34:18Fearne Cotton?

  Wow, how interesting. So how are you processing that? Because that is, that is interesting that was it a sense of I don't deserve this or what's the catch here? When am I gonna get caught out? You know, because if you're not used to that, a run of luck, a run of ascension. That is uncomfortable to a degree because you're used to the hustle and the fight and what challenge am I dealing with next but as you say, you know, you, I, you know, I've sort of met you back in the day. I remember when you used to come to my friend Kai's flat and do magic, like back in the day. And then to watch you blow up into this global superstar and rightly so because of your, your talent and your drive. But I can imagine for you then, having not been used to a run of good luck, that that is discombobulating.

• 35:01Fearne Cotton?

  Like what, what's, what's going on here? How did you mentally deal with that and process it?

• 35:06Speaker 02

  I think I just kept trying to ride the wave, but it got to the point where I was just internalising all these kind of, all these thoughts where I didn't feel like I belonged in, in that world, you know, I, I, and I was trying to fake it, but it just basically boiled over to the point where I was self imploding. And the thing I loved performing, I was scared to do it, you know, I was scared to go on stage, you know what I mean?

• 35:33Fearne Cotton?

  Because of the pressure?

• 35:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, like I felt like I'd found myself in this incredibly fortunate position and I didn't know what to do with it. And I also, I didn't have a struggle or something to channel my energy into trying to figure out. And I felt like, well, I'm so lucky to be here. I can't have any complaints. I can't, I can't complain about anything in my life and I can't share that with people because they'll look at my life and think, well, look at everything you've got and rightly so. I had so much fortune on my, on my side of that, at that peak of that, of that time in my life.

• 36:12Speaker 02

  So I do actually look at the reset, I'm going to call it, the, you know, the, the kind of hitting rock bottom as possibly the best thing that ever happened to me. Because when I was going through it, I felt like my entire life was being taken from me. Everything I lived for has been taken from me and I thought, what's the point in being here anymore? Whereas now I look at it, well, how many people get the chance to have two lives in one lifetime? And I've been channeling my energy, you know, recently, like my last, last few years of, I feel like I've come alive again. I feel like the magic I'm creating, it's not just magic just to entertain people. It's magic that.

• 36:55Speaker 02

  Definitely for me, it has a sense of purpose. I feel like I'm doing something with it that is actually gonna, it's bigger than just me.

• 37:04Fearne Cotton?

  Hmm.

• 37:04Speaker 02

  Like, for example, right, there's a young boy in the show Miracles that we filmed with in my hometown of Bradford. Um, got a young guy called Travis and he's nine years old, or he's 10 now, but he was nine years old. And he had an interaction with a homeless man. And then he went home, told his dad, I wanna sell all my toys and I wanna open up a food bank. And he set up that food bank a couple of years ago now and it's helping like 200 people a month.

• 37:32Fearne Cotton?

  So I love that story so much.

• 37:34Speaker 02

  That's incredible, right? And, you know, I went on, like, when I was at my lowest, uh, when I was like finding my way back, my therapist told me to like, you know, read, read the 12 steps book. Now, I've never drank alcohol or anything, um, or done drugs, apart from what the doctors gave me. I mean, to be fair, I've done a lot because 29 times a day.

• 37:50Fearne Cotton?

  You've done shit loads of drugs.

• 37:51Speaker 02

  Right? Um, but, you know, like.

• 37:55Fearne Cotton?

  Legal ones.

• 37:56Speaker 02

  Yes, I've, I've, um, so then my doctor recommended reading the 12 steps book and it's loads of short stories. Um, it's a lot more than this, but it's a load of short stories ultimately that show people's struggles and how they overcame them, overcoming their addictions, um, and the different stages they've had to go through to get out the other side. Um, and it's an ongoing thing. So, um, you know, even when you go through it, like it's, it's a lifelong, um, pursuit. And reading the stories in the 12 steps inspired me to want to read stories of other people and how they deal with their own problems and how they take the negative things that life throws at them and flip it into a positive.

• 38:35Speaker 02

  And that ended up, you know, that's why I went down the rabbit hole of finding all these incredible people that I wanted to film with, you know? Some of them in, in Dynamo's Dead, I filmed with certain celebrities like Demi Lovato, like Coldplay, like people that you don't always know that they're having bad times.

• 38:51Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, I love that Demi chat you had with her. That was, that was deep. It's amazing. And she just opened up about so much to you. It's incredible.

• 38:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's, it was, everybody on, on that show and everybody I filmed with over the last few years, they've been. So open and it's just been so amazing, you know, hearing that people are going through stuff, but also hearing how they deal with it in their own special way. Cause I think that just gives everyone hope that we can all get through this. So that, they're actually, it's quite crazy because you just reminded me Dynamo is dead goes out in America today.

• 39:21Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, nice.

• 39:22Speaker 02

  So people are gonna get to see that demo of our clip in America, which is quite exciting on Fuse TV out there, which is cool. But yeah, anyway, I'm going back to my, my point. So I came across obviously Travis's story. And, you know, I wanted to go film with him and even better that it was from my hometown, you know.

• 39:39Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 39:39Speaker 02

  It showed, it showed me, you know, if, if that's a, a 10 year old helping the world like that, then it makes me feel like the world is in safe hands for the future with the next generation of people coming through. Right. But after filming with him, I was doing an interview for The Big Issue and I mentioned Travis. And then a week later, they reached out to me and said, we want to contact Travis. And they've made him one of the 100 young people to kind of watch who's changing the world for the good. And for me, like that there is the epitome of the magic actually doing something that is way bigger than any magic trick I could do. You know, that's gonna help Travis help even more people than he's helping.

• 40:23Speaker 02

  And it all started with me wanting to show him a simple trick. Do you know what I mean?

• 40:28Fearne Cotton?

  It's so beautiful. What a lovely chain of events. It's so amazing. And I love this. I, I love hearing any stories like this where people have had a reset, like you've pressed game over on a computer game and you're going back to the fucking start. And, you know, I've definitely done that. I think when you get to a point where nothing makes sense anymore, and like you say, you know, you've maybe had a couple of these moments. You know, you've got your rock bottom moment, but you've also got, oh my God, I'm so famous and successful. Nothing quite makes sense anymore. Why am I doing it? Who am I? And that sort of existential. You know, craze that we can get into mentally of not quite knowing what our purpose is and where we're going. And it's only when you press reset, which usually is a rock bottom, certainly was for me, was for you,

• 41:12Fearne Cotton?

  that you have to make up the rules again, because I think we all create these rules from childhood where we go, this makes you a good person, or that makes you a bad person, or this works, that doesn't work, and this is how I like things to be. And that becomes, perhaps as you get older, more rigid, and the margins move into a narrower space. So you're just living in this one way according to how you think. And when you press reset, that, it just all blows up. And you're like, oh god. I mean, my old, my old framework personally made no sense to me anymore. I was like, I was trying to keep everything under control, trying to be perfect, please everybody, blah, blah, blah.

• 41:53Fearne Cotton?

  And then you go, what the fuck am I doing? And actually, when you press reset and blow it all up, you go, right, what, where could I be a bit more flexible? How could I think a bit differently? How could I see the world and my place in it in a completely different way? And I think if you get a conclusion of purpose out of that, even better. Like, how amazing that you're still doing the thing you love, you're still passionate about the art of magic, but there's this undercurrent of purpose there, where you can, like you say, you've just set off this beautiful chain of events to change lives. It's amazing.

• 42:27Speaker 02

  Thank you. Yeah, it's, I'm so fortunate to find myself in this place, which is almost like a strange notion, thinking where it came from. If you'd have asked this conversation like a few years ago, I wouldn't have felt fortunate at all, or I wouldn't have got to this place without going through what I went through.

• 42:44Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 42:45Speaker 02

  Um, and, you know, it's, it's kind of, it's really cool now because. I'm writing magic ideas on a day to day basis, you know, I'm coming up with so much new material. But I'm getting to look at it and share it through a different perspective than I ever did when I was younger. When and and I think that's the thing as well, like, it's a great thing about magic is that magic brings people back to that childlike state of mind when they believe anything is possible.

• 43:15Fearne Cotton?

  It's awe, isn't it? We never feel awe as an adult and then you see magic and go, I'm in awe. It's like proper awe, awe struck.

• 43:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, and and I think that when you're younger, you believe you can do anything. You don't follow the parameters that you have as an adult. And I think that's why it becomes a bit scarier, because when you're a kid, you'll talk about anything.

• 43:38Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 43:38Speaker 02

  You'll literally, nothing's a secret and you will, you believe that anything's possible. You you you're literally just living life, having fun, more more than ever not.

• 43:49Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 43:50Speaker 02

  Right? So then, when you get older, you have all these parameters that society has kind of put us on, that you have to live within the bounds of these confines. And some of them are rightfully there to help the world be better.

• 44:06Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 44:06Speaker 02

  Right? But then there's those, there's certain parameters that make you as a person feel locked in, feel kind of feel trapped. And I think that when I've done my reset, it's allowed me to kind of come back to magic with a sense of play, with a sense of fun. Um, I'm not looking at it as the pressure of an adult. So I think it's me starting, you know, almost starting from scratch and I literally like, I started a brand new Instagram account, you know, from zero. And it's been really fun building that up again, because it's it's called Dynamo is Dead. Um, which is quite funny. Um, but but yeah, literally, I've been building that up. But I haven't made content.

• 44:50Speaker 02

  Worrying about, you know, will they like this? Well, you know, I've just been like, all right, this'll be a cool thing to make.

• 44:55Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 44:55Speaker 02

  I was gonna make it, you know, I'll just put it out into the world, share what I love and it's been resonating with people. So that, that was almost like a start. I've, I've kind of got back to just doing the things I've, I like to do for the fun of it. And now I'm kind of, you know, I'm in the process of writing a live show, which is in some ways, the first time I'm doing a Stephen Frein magic show.

• 45:17Fearne Cotton?

  Wow. And how do you feel about that?

• 45:19Speaker 02

  It's kind of scary. Um, I'm a little nervous, apprehensive about some of the things I wanna share, but I think because I'm nervous of them, I definitely should share them because it's often the, the things that you're scared to put out into the world. Uh, they're the things that are gonna move people. They're the things that are gonna be, have the most impact. And I've got so many incredible magical stories that I wanna, and, and pieces of magic that I wanna share in this. And I feel like, you know, my grandpa got me into magic. He always called me Stephen, right? And he passed away in 2012 and my nana passed away in 2021. So I feel like this is a chance to show the world

• 46:04Speaker 02

  the magic of Stephen that they used to get to see.

• 46:07Fearne Cotton?

  Hmm.

• 46:08Speaker 02

  Um, because back when I did magic just for them, I had the best time of my life. It didn't matter that I lived on a council estate. It didn't matter that we were poor. Like I had my grandparents there as the best audience I've ever performed for. And they helped to nurture that talent. They, they showed me that, you know, I could do anything. And I think I've been reminded of that over the last few years, you know, it's weird. I feel like, it's gonna sound really hokey, but when I've been writing these shows, I, I often stay up till like six in the morning writing. I'm a, I'm a night owl, right?

• 46:43Fearne Cotton?

  I'm the direct opposite of that. I'm literally like, get me in bed by half nine.

• 46:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, you have, you have children, so you have responsibilities. So, you know, so, you know, I, I think when I, if I, when I have kids in the future.

• 46:54Fearne Cotton?

  But, but this is, this is very common that musicians, creative people can draw a lot of. Amazingness from whatever you believe that creative source is in the dark hours when everyone else is asleep is definitely a thing.

• 47:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 47:08Fearne Cotton?

  Definitely a thing.

• 47:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, I think when I when I am fortunate enough to have children in the future, they're either gonna have to be night owls like me, touch wood, hopefully they are. Although my wife gets up in the day, so like we could, you know, we could tag team.

• 47:21Fearne Cotton?

  Tag team, yeah.

• 47:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, right. Or I'm just gonna have to get a whole new reset on life and start getting up really early.

• 47:27Fearne Cotton?

  You might have to do that.

• 47:27Speaker 02

  And go to bed really early.

• 47:28Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 47:29Speaker 02

  But currently I stay up all night writing ideas and I'm often on my own in my, I've got a little magic studio, right? But I do feel like I've been like trying to write this show and I feel like when I'm getting to a point where I'm like, oh, I just, I can't seem to wrap my head around how I'm gonna put this piece of magic in and tell this story and do this. But then somehow it just comes together and I feel like my nan and grandpa are somehow helping me.

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• 49:32Fearne Cotton?

  That version of yourself where there was that freedom to experiment without that pressure and you were, you knew that you had this talent and you, and you were working with it. Like you said a moment ago, it's one in a, it's not even one in a million. It's one in probably a billion that you were then going to become one of the most successful magicians on the planet, on the planet. Like that is a far out idea for a small kid who's growing up on a council estate that they're going to do that. Obviously you need proper talent and you need discipline with magic because I'm sure that is a huge percentage of how you end up being so good is just practicing and practicing and practicing. But the other key ingredient is drive. You have got to have such drive and such ambition.

• 50:15Fearne Cotton?

  And you were back in the day, probably around the time I first met you hustling, you know, getting yourself in backstage at gigs, making sure you were meeting the right people, doing magic for people, even if they weren't necessarily interested in watching it. Where do you think that comes from? That level of drive and the feeling that you're not going to give up?

• 50:34Speaker 02

  I think that comes from growing up on the council estate, to be honest. I wasn't a big kid and I would get, you know, I was the easy target for the bullies. So every time I left my house, I was having to hustle in one way, shape or form to survive that day. You know, I didn't want to go to school and get beat up. You know, I wanted to go to school and learn, but more often than not, in order to get to learning, I had to navigate not getting battered at school. So. I think the drive to want to improve myself each day by getting to class, by, by, you know, not, you know, it was scary going to school for me, but I think the fear can go one or two ways.

• 51:20Speaker 02

  You can run towards it and the fear of looking, looking at the other side thinking, well, if I don't get to get these lessons in life, you know, the lessons from school that I'm going to need for my future, then that's a more scary thought than getting punched in the face. Right now, getting punched in the face really hurts, right? But I was willing to put myself in that firing line in order to get the education that I needed. And I think that same ethos is something I've always taken with me, you know. Now, I face a lot of challenges trying to navigate the industry that we work in, the entertainment

• 52:02Speaker 02

  industry, but I can safely say that when I'm trying to perform my magic in this modern world right now, very unlikely that someone's going to punch me in the face because I want to show my magic trick.

• 52:16Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 52:16Speaker 02

  Do you know what I mean? So when I look at it like that, I'm just like, well, you know what, like, what have I got to lose?

• 52:24Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, but it's extraordinary that you even had that mindset as a kid because I think a lot of the time, especially when it comes to bullying, the natural reaction is, I'm just gonna hide in my shell. I don't want to go out, I don't want to go to school, I'll be mute, I won't say anything because there's so much fear around being attacked for who you are or what you represent in the other person's eyes, whatever it might be. Why do you think you had that mindset that you could take the other route and not hide and shy away? You actually did directly the opposite and became someone that wanted to perform and show a talent to people around them?

• 53:02Speaker 02

  I think, looking back at it now, I actually would say it comes from my mum.

• 53:09Speaker 02

  But I've only realised that in the last few years. And the reason I realised it is because we were filming some interviews that were gonna be in one of the TV shows. Uh, in Dynamo is Dead, right? Um, cause I was, I was obviously, I buried myself alive on the TV show. So they wanted to interview my family just in case anything went wrong, which is kind of a morbid thing when you think about it. It's pretty, pretty full on. You know, but it, it shows the realities of the, of the, the incredible stunt I was, I was, the challenge I was gonna put myself under. And I watched some of the interviews back, now we didn't end up using them in the show, right? But I watched some of the rushes back in the edit suite. And my mum was talking about some of the things that she'd overcome in her life.

• 53:54Speaker 02

  But I didn't even, well, I kinda knew, but I didn't really appreciate at the time. Because I think growing up, I possibly, I felt like my mum had made certain decisions in her life. That had put us in a position that we were in, like, you know, like my dad, when she was dating him, you know, when she was younger. He wasn't always, uh, the nicest guy, right? But she kept going back to him, you know what I mean? And, and I think I always didn't understand why she would put herself in that situation. So I kind of, not resented, but I didn't, I just didn't understand it from that perspective.

• 54:36Speaker 02

  And I didn't necessarily give her the credit that she maybe deserved. Because looking back now, it's very hard to walk away from an abusive relationship. It's very hard to change your circumstances, you know? Yeah. If you're trying to figure out how to make ends meet, you know, pay to get food to feed your child whilst your partner is in jail. Whilst half your family don't want you to, don't wanna be in your life anymore because of the decisions you've made. Then you have to find a way, you have to become resilient. And hearing some of the stories, but from almost like a bird's eye perspective, bird's eye view of looking at my mum. Uh, looking at that interview that she gave, it changed my whole perception.

• 55:20Speaker 02

  I have a whole new understanding and respect and admiration for what she went through to, to bring me into this world. You know, to, to. Get me to survive, basically. And I think, looking back now, I have to give a big part of my resilience to my mum.

• 55:42Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, God, how, I mean, how fascinating. We should all potentially interview our parents to try to sort of get that story. Because I think when you're growing up, no matter what the circumstances, you just think, my mum's my mum. Or my dad's my dad, or whoever's brought you up. And you, I guess you don't necessarily, when you're a kid, certainly see them as a human. They're just your mum and your dad. And then maybe the age we're at now, or maybe a bit younger, you can start to go, God, you know, what have they gone through? Why did they make those decisions? What have they been through to inform who they are today? And how has that impacted how I've been parented? And I guess it's never too late to do that, to have that chat.

• 56:20Speaker 02

  It's so easy, so easy as a kid to be like, oh, mum, why can't I have the trainers that my friends got? Why can't I get those toys, you know? Why can't we go on that school trip, you know? You don't understand what they're going through to even make ends meet, let alone be able to pay for the luxuries that we, that we all maybe take for granted.

• 56:38Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 56:40Speaker 02

  But yeah, I think, you know, it's been really good for me kind of reflecting back on, on life. You know, like feeling like I lost it and then reflecting back on what it was that I was actually would have been losing. You know, it's given me so many reasons to want to stay here and to want to take these stories and channel them into my magic so I can share things in new ways. And we talked about like, how do I feel about writing this Stephen Fain show? And it's scary, but it's also really, really exciting. You know, I'm performing in like a, an intimate venue, it's like 200 people for sure, called Underbelly Boulevard in Soho. I'm just doing shows in London, 47 shows.

• 57:24Speaker 02

  I know a lot of my fans were a bit gutted that I'm not going further afield, but there is actually a valid reason. This is my first long run of shows since I got better, better like. So I plan to go and travel the rest of the world and. You know, take magic all over the place with this show. But to begin with, I wanted to have it close to home and close to my hospital and close to my specialist. So that just, you know, it's a long run of shows, forty seven shows in a row. It's not something I know how my body's going to cope with it. Um, I've done longer runs in the past, you know, my last big tour did a hundred and eleven shows. So I wanted to kind of ease myself back into it and, you know, and perform close to home.

• 58:06Speaker 02

  And just really, you know, really hone the show, really make it an incredible experience for the people coming to see it. So by the time I do take it on the road and do bring it to a city near you, you're going to get the best experience ever. Because I've, you know, I've been able to make the show from the from my home comforts.

• 58:22Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, and good for you. Like, you know, you're you're at an age and have the the long history of experience to know. This is going to ensure that I not only perform the best, but that most importantly, your health is prioritised. And I think when you're younger and you're hungry and you're on the ascent, you know, you don't bear those things in mind. You just want to do the best and that's when you do end up getting ill or whatever. So I think it's fucking brilliant that you've made that decision for you and your health. Um, I'm coming to the show.

• 58:51Speaker 02

  Oh, amazing.

• 58:51Fearne Cotton?

  I cannot wait.

• 58:52Speaker 02

  You've got to bring the kids as well.

• 58:53Fearne Cotton?

  Bringing the kids, we we cannot wait. I'd love to finish by asking you, Stephen, where is your happy place?

• 59:00Speaker 02

  My happy place is it's got to be performing magic. Sometimes it's felt like a tricky place to get to, pun intended, I guess. Um, but yeah, performing magic and right now performing magic as myself, as Stephen Finn, um, up close and magical.

• 59:19Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, well, I'm so happy that you're doing what you love and that your health is back on track. And I can't wait to see the live show. Thank you so much for being on the podcast.

• 59:28Speaker 02

  Oh, thank you for having me.

• 59:31Fearne Cotton?

  Oh Stephen, that was so wonderful, so good to catch up with him. Do you know what I love about Stephen? And it was so interesting on the day and it's interesting, you know, being an interviewer in general, because every experience is different. But what I loved is you asked Stephen a question and he really intensely looks in your eyes when you're talking to him. And then he has a beat, like a little pause in his brain where you can see he's forming the answer thoughtfully. And I loved that about him, that he's so thoughtful and eloquent and brilliant at telling his own story. I just really loved that and it was so cool to see the magic. If you want to go and have a look, go to Instagram, you just need to go to @happyplaceofficial. We were freaking out.

• 1:00:14Fearne Cotton?

  I mean, he did like a half an hour magic show for us in the end, for me and my Happy Place team. We were absolutely freaking out. I mean, Anushka's mind just was blowing out of her ears. Stephen's show, Up Close and Magical, is at the Underbelly in Soho and it's opening on the 28th of March. There'll be a link in the show notes if you want to grab your tickets. I am going with my kids. All right, until next time, a massive thanks again to Stephen, to the producer, Anushka Tate at Happy Place Studios, and to you, just keep being you, my loves.

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