“The shame was intense!” How Ben West coped with his brother’s suicide

Ben West was 17 when his younger brother died by suicide. He’s since gone on to become a mental health campaigner, and has found humour can help communicate deeply traumatic messages. In this chat with Fearne, Ben talks through what signs to look for if you’re concerned about someone’s mental health. Then, how do you break the awkward silence when you both know you need to talk about a big topic like poor mental health? You’ll be able to approach the conversation in a compassionate, rather than confronting, way. Or, maybe you’re the one keeping big thoughts and feelings inside but have become a master of masking your truth. Fearne shares her experience of feeling defensive and telling people she’s ‘fine’ when they asked concerned questions. Ben also takes a thorough look at the mental health system and explains the reality of what care looks like in the UK (and what he’s doing to change it for the better!) Plus, how have people like Andrew Tate affected boys’ mental health? And why is finding the right therapist is a bit like dating...? CONTENT WARNING: This episode is all about the reality of suicide. If you liked this episode of Happy Place, you might also like: Richard E. Grant https://pod.fo/e/147a1a Ashley Cain https://pod.fo/e/e3096 Roman Kemp https://pod.fo/e/14b6fa Child on the line is a three-part documentary podcast series celebrating the Volunteer Counsellors of Childline, and the brave children & young people who contact the helpline service. Listen here: https://www.childonthelinepodcast.com/ Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Hi, I'm Natalie Dormer and I'm proud to be an ambassador for Childline. This year, Childline turns 40. To mark it, I've made Child on the Line, a three-part documentary podcast. We hear why children needed a helpline in 1986, how it was built against the odds and the challenges children face today, from abuse and mental health to social media and AI. Search Child on the Line and listen wherever you get your podcasts.

• 0:27Fearne Cotton?

  Before we start, this episode is about suicide. It's a vital conversation that we need to be having, but I totally understand if you'd rather leave it for now and come back to this episode when it feels right for you.

• 0:41Fearne Cotton?

  Hello and a massive welcome to Happy Place with me, Fern Cotton. This is the show that offers really practical ways to support your mental health. Today, I'm chatting to the brilliant Ben West.

• 0:54Speaker 02

  The last thing that happened between me and Sam was as he was leaving, I sort of shouted something off after him because I was annoyed at how he'd not been involved in dinner. And it ended up being the last thing I ever said to him was just this heated argument. And that just crushed me because I realised, oh my God, he did it because of me. He did it because of that conversation. And I went into this absolute panic and it got so intense that I felt like I couldn't tell anyone, bearing in mind we had the police at our house, detectives and stuff. I was like, I'm going to get arrested, it's my fault. They're going to arrest me for manslaughter or something.

• 1:29Fearne Cotton?

  So look, we're in the thick of Jan now, we are, we're in it, there's no going back. I'm actually feeling quite motivated. I think maybe that was because I had to have a fair chunk of time off to have this operation that I had last year. Obviously, I'm very bad at resting, got completely bored. I think I did four days of watching TV, loving Bad Sisters, P S, best show ever. And then I got so bored, so bored, so I am raring to go and feeling utterly grateful for good health and I'm healing really well. Still can't feel my ear, it's like someone else's ear stuck to my head, but bar that... I'm feeling good and I'm raring to go this Jan and I'm really excited to be having

• 2:09Fearne Cotton?

  some properly deep conversations, much like this one. So let's chat about Ben. At just seventeen years old, Ben lost his younger brother Sam to suicide. In the six years since, Ben has done the most incredible work initiating and taking a number of mental health campaigns to Parliament. God, this chat has stuck with me, big, big, big time. Not only because Ben is the most eloquent speaker, the most level-headed young person I think I've ever met. He's astonishing, but also because I learned a lot and that's why I really enjoy having these chats. I learned a hell of a lot. One of the things that was fascinating was hearing about the complexities

• 2:52Fearne Cotton?

  of losing someone in such a way and knowing that humour and at times numbness and excruciating pain can all coexist. It's not as if you just feel one thing all the time. That was fascinating. It was also really good to learn about what to look for in the signs of people around you, how they're dealing, how they're coping, how they're maybe not coping but not telling you about it. And also the shame that you can feel when, you know, I don't think this exclusively relates to suicide, but when someone around you dies, the regrets you have, things you didn't do, things you didn't say. I think that's a big one that comes along with grief and I'm pretty sure many of us would have felt that. I know I certainly have and Ben talks about that very, very well.

• 3:38Fearne Cotton?

  We also talk about therapy and how finding the right therapist can be incredibly tricky, but definitely not impossible. And Ben actually likened it to dating, which I thought was a very interesting conclusion and pretty spot on too. I mean, there's so much in it, you just need to listen and take it all in if you can. It's a brilliant listen. And I know we chat about suicide in this conversation, but there's moments of levity and lightness and humour and Ben just being brilliant and charismatic and so smart. And I really know that you'll get a lot from this one.

• 4:16Speaker 03

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• 4:45Speaker 04

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• 5:15Speaker 05

  Hot flashes, rage crying, forgetting words mid-sent-ten. Yeah, we know. Menopause is a lot. Midi Health gets it. That's why Midi offers virtual healthcare specially tailored to women's needs. Built for women by women. Every symptom, every stage, every question. Visit joinmidi.com to get started today. That's join M I D I dot com. Individual results and coverage varies. Check with your plan for coverage.

• 5:48Fearne Cotton?

  All right, here we go. This is the show.

• 6:12Fearne Cotton?

  Ben, I'm so happy to meet you.

• 6:13Speaker 02

  It's really nice to meet you.

• 6:14Fearne Cotton?

  I think what you're doing is really bloody excellent.

• 6:19Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 6:19Fearne Cotton?

  That's an understatement, but it's really important and just necessary.

• 6:24Fearne Cotton?

  On every level, what you're doing on social media, what you're doing with your campaigning. And also, I massively enjoyed reading your book. I've got here, this book could save your life. I mean, even you say in the book, it's a surprise that you've written a book.

• 6:38Speaker 02

  Yeah. Oh, yeah. A massive surprise. Like, I start the book, because, because also, you know, when you're having a conversation about writing a book and the publishers are like, you know, what, what's your previous experience of reading? And I'm sitting there going, I don't think I've read a book in about 10 years since I was doing Of Mice and Men in GCSE.

• 6:54Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, in the spectacles at GCSE level.

• 6:56Speaker 02

  And so I was like, oh, no. Because I, I'm not going to let this opportunity go down, but.

• 7:01Fearne Cotton?

  No.

• 7:02Speaker 02

  But it was really hard to sort of convince myself I was good enough to do it. And then even through the book, like, writing it, like, my editor was great and it was a lot of reassurance of like, you do know how to do it. You do have quite a good start, it's quite conversational. And I just remember thinking, like, I remember being in year six, my English teacher called my parents in and said, we don't want Ben to sit his exam because we think it's going to be demoralising for him. So that was my like, that's, that's what I thought my English skills were like. I was like, it's not even worth bothering, because they, they thought I was going to fail so badly that I'd be embarrassed by, by the exam. So, and so now I just love the fact that I've got a book on the table. I almost want to like, send it back to those teachers being like, surprise.

• 7:42Fearne Cotton?

  Send it wrapped with a big red bow with F off written on the front. No, I, I mean, I had quite a similar experience at school. I think I was kind of written off in English. I got slightly better as time went on, but there was certainly not a book in me at that point. My teachers would have said, there's no way a book in you. That's quite literally 50% of my work now is writing. So I think for anyone who thinks they've got a book in them, just give it a go. I mean, I, I absolutely agree with your editor. I love your style of writing. It's really conversational. Your storytelling is impeccable. It's obviously excruciatingly painful to read at times, yet you've got humour in there as well. That's a real skill to merge all of that together with the heavy subject of suicide.

• 8:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, thank you. I think it's, it's really important for me, like, because. Throughout my story, there's, there's these moments where like, obviously, losing someone's suicide and going through all this stuff and dealing with mental health issues. There's not really much fun to be had in that. It's not a very fun time. Um, but that's not really me. Like, I remember when, you know, when I was, when I'd lost Sam and when, when Sam died from suicide and, and all these people suddenly go, they sort of flock to your side and you've got flowers in your house and all this. And it just felt like it was this ceremonial sadness, like everyone was just had to be sad and, and that's not me. I like having fun. I like laughing with people. And so from the moment that, that this started happening and I started talking about mental health, I've wanted it to be a fun conversation because,

• 9:09Speaker 02

  as we both know, like people turn off. If it's not fun in some way and it's too heavy, then you're not going to get the impact that, that you're going to, you want to create. Um, so yeah, having a little bit of like heartiness and a joke and, and that, to be honest with you, there's been some really, really, really funny moments. There are, dealing with mental health issues and dealing with grief and going through this journey, there are some really funny things that happen. Um, so I think it's important to tell that side of it as well.

• 9:34Fearne Cotton?

  Me too. I, I, I agree with you. I think we can't talk about things with just one tone. Life isn't like that. Life's a big old mess and, and also your head throws up all sorts of weird thoughts and feelings when you're going through something as heavy as grief or a mental health problem. And I think you've absolutely nailed it with this book. And also just what you're doing with social media. So for people that don't know, let's go back to what catalyzed this incredible campaigning you're doing. As you've just touched on, your brother Sam died by suicide when he was 15 years old. And that obviously impacted your life in ways that you could not have imagined.

• 10:13Fearne Cotton?

  Going back to before Sam died, in the book, you talk about your mum mentioning to you that Sam had depression. And you were a teenager yourself at this point. Tell us about your reaction to her telling you that.

• 10:26Speaker 02

  So Sam was diagnosed with clinical depression in September 2017, while we were both at school. Um, I, we'd sort of noticed him changing over the course of a year, but he's 15 years old. Like, what 15 year old wants to play Happy Families, you know?

• 10:42Fearne Cotton?

  And what, what sort of changes were you noticing as a brother?

• 10:45Speaker 02

  Well, when I was growing up, I have got two brothers, Sam and I had another brother, Tom. And we were all similar age, so like we would just play together, mess around together. And slowly over time, as we grew older, we just wouldn't do that together anymore. Um, and with Sam, he would spend, he was spending a lot of time on his own. Um, he was spending a lot of time, he was an amazing artist. He produced his own music, he created these incredible paintings, like a talent that I'm so jealous of. Cause I would love to be able to do that now, but he would spend hours, days and days and days just on his own in his room. Creating paintings and music and, and just really became quite secluded. He wouldn't talk at dinner, he just wouldn't get involved.

• 11:28Speaker 02

  He didn't have a sense of humour that he used to have with us at least, he still was funny at school. But we weren't seeing that fun, friendly Sam um at home. Which to be honest, as a seventeen year old me that had this friend um that I lived with. I, I really felt like I'd lost him already because I'd lost this person that actually throughout my life was this really fun person. That was always making me laugh. Then he was diagnosed with depression and I guess I look back now and I should have just gone, click. Oh, that makes sense because it does now. But at the time, you know, like you said, my mum sat me down after dinner and was just like, I just think you should be aware. That Sam's been diagnosed with clinical depression. And I was like, okay, yep, fine, sure, I'm allowed to go.

• 12:14Speaker 02

  Uh, and sort of got down and went upstairs and went to bed. And I ne- I never, I never talked to him about it, like that was the last time depression was ever mentioned. And I look back now and it's really difficult because essentially what I'd been told in that moment was Sam has been diagnosed with an illness in three months' time is going to kill him. And I reacted as if I'd been told he had of the flu. Um, and it, it makes me quite sad that I didn't have the knowledge of what that was. That, that didn't realise that he'd been diagnosed with this really significant illness. And I often think like, if mum had told me Sam would be diagnosed with cancer, I would have gone, oh my god.

• 12:58Speaker 02

  Where is he? Like, let's go and get him down. I would love to talk to him. Like, that's awful. And essentially, he had been diagnosed this awful, awful, awful illness. And, and yeah, never, never spoke to him. There were moments where I felt like I wanted to talk to him. Um, I used to pick him up from school and uh, when I, when I was learning to drive, or after I'd learned to drive. Thankfully, he would have been a terrible instructor.

• 13:21Speaker 02

  Or after I learned to drive. And uh, there were moments where we'd sit there in silence. And we were both, we were both thinking about it. We both wanted to say something. But I guess that, that awkwardness of approaching that subject, when you don't really know what you're doing. And, and for me, not really understanding the significance of it, we never, we never did. And obviously, you know, that's a regret I'm always going to have, that I didn't. Um, and something I felt hugely guilty about for a long time. And I'm sure we'll touch on that lovely, lovely emotion that is shame. Which just haunts people. Uh, uh, and it's so unfair because it's not, shame is so rarely the right emotion for a moment. But yeah, that shame of not having that conversation probably fueled more of my campaigning and the work I do now than I probably admit to.

• 14:05Speaker 02

  Um, that feeling of trying to right a wrong, particularly at the start, was such a powerful force at making me go, wow, I need to do something good. Um, obviously, there's lots of other reasons, but I felt like I wronged him. And that's the wrong thing to think, but. By being told that and not talking really, really makes you wonder, like, especially as I was his older brother, like, you should have been there, whatever. Um, that really played on my mind for many, many, many years, actually.

• 14:30Fearne Cotton?

  Um, I bet, but, you know, as we will get to in, in your extensive campaigning. We don't get educated about this stuff at school. We're not told to look for the signs that people are suffering. We're not told how to talk about depression and mental health. We have no clue. I mean, I don't feel that much better equipped at my age now with all the stuff I've been through and, and looked at. It's still got this awkwardness about it. We still feel unsure as to how we should broach that subject with people that we know are having a tough time. If there's someone out there listening, thinking, I know that my partner, sibling, friend is suffering.

• 15:12Fearne Cotton?

  And I don't know how to even go about initiating that chat. What would you say?

• 15:17Speaker 02

  Hmm. I guess in another way, it's if I could go back into that car, what would I say now? I think the first thing I'd say is it's really, it's really scary. And I sometimes say that, you know, when I, when I talk about, oh, if mum had said he had cancer, I would have reacted differently. I'm not sure I would have done because actually even that's a really scary, horrible conversation to have. And I think that the part of the conversation is it's just, it's just really, really normal to feel nervous about asking people if they're okay. And I don't think we talk about that enough. Everyone's like, talk about your mental health. But it's still, still really, really, really, really scary.

• 15:52Fearne Cotton?

  It's so hard for the person who's experiencing and it's so hard for the person who's trying to help.

• 15:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, a hundred percent. We, we can't talk about it like it's simple and, and we shouldn't try and talk about it as if it's, it's always going to be easy. But I would say we have to come up with a bit of a plan. So go away, have a think about what you've noticed and sort of indicate that behaviour. So with Sam, like I've noticed you've been, I've noticed that he was secluded and taking himself off and didn't really, wasn't really engaging in our conversations at dinner and stuff. So sort of notice something and then go into that situation and count down from three. So three, two, one, and just say what you need to say. Just rip the plaster off because once you've said something, you can then go, oh, okay. Well, that's, we've crossed that line now. Let's have a conversation. And I think crossing that line is the hardest part.

• 16:41Speaker 02

  So I, I talk about it in the book, but I've got my cup of tea, one, two, three. Get, get a mug of tea in someone's hand and just count down from three and say, you don't see yourself at the moment, what's going on? And then you've crossed that line in the sand and that's for them now to throw it back to you. And they can go, yeah, I'm actually really having a difficult time. And all my, you've met, that's created that conversation and that's an amazing thing. But it's, it's scary. So sort of coming up with a plan, just saying something at the count of three and just, and just seeing what happens with that conversation is really good. And I wish, you know, if I'd gone back into that car journey and just gone, mum told me about what's going on, how are you finding it? How amazing would that have been? How amazing would that have been for him to have gone?

• 17:24Speaker 02

  It's not this weird awkward thing that no one's talking about anymore. You know, and I that would have just if I was putting myself in his shoes, that would have just felt so magical to have had it acknowledged and and have the next 10 minutes of just chatting. And, you know, it makes me feel a bit emotional sitting here thinking about that. And I guess you can think all day long about the different scenarios that I could have done and should have done and would have done. But I guess that's feeds back into what I try and do now, which is, you know, there are still so many people out there, like you say, that that really can do this and can make people feel comfortable and can break down stigma in their own family or their friends or at work. And they have that opportunity to really do something really incredible for that person.

• 18:05Speaker 02

  But it is, it's scary and I don't want to talk about it as if it's this easy thing that we should just be able to do.

• 18:14Speaker 05

  Hot flashes, rage crying, forgetting words mid-senten. Yeah, we know. Menopause is a lot. Midi Health gets it. That's why Midi offers virtual healthcare specially tailored to women's needs. Built for women by women. Every symptom, every stage, every question. Visit joinmidi.com to get started today. That's join M I D I dot com. Individual results and coverage varies. Check with your plan for coverage.

• 18:44Speaker 03

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• 20:16Fearne Cotton?

  It's amazing that you're out there saying this stuff because I don't think it's like, oh, some people are struggling with this. I think most people, probably 99% of people who have someone in their life who they know is having a tough time, feel incredibly awkward about that conversation. So even by us just sat here now chatting about it, could hopefully influence, I'm thinking about people in my own head now even, could influence so many different people and how they go about that. So definitely don't underestimate the power of what you're even saying now. It's huge. It's huge. It's really huge. Chapter two of the book is a tough read. But it is essential.

• 21:01Fearne Cotton?

  I mean, I was gripping the pages of the book, reading it. And I was like, I can't skim over this bit and I need to read it. And you explicitly say you've written it for that reason. We can't shy away from the facts. And in chapter two, you explicitly detail the evening that Sam died. You were all under the same roof when it happened with your mum. And it's a nightmare. It's an absolute nightmare. But it is so important that we're not skimming over these stories, that we're not bypassing them to get to the easier part of the conversation. I mean, I'm imagining That was horrific to write.

• 21:42Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 21:43Fearne Cotton?

  But is definitely helping you put that message across that we've got to chat about this stuff. This is so important and we'll get to some horrendous stats later on in this chat. But it is so important to tell these stories.

• 21:59Speaker 02

  I think you're completely right. I mean, chapter two was one of those where I was thinking about it for so, so, so long going, do I want to do it? How much do I put detail, do I put in? Um, and then I just, I just thought, you know, this is happening every day, right? Multiple times a day. And you said, we're going to get into stats, but it is, I, I, people don't realise how common suicide is in, not just in the country, but around the world. And I don't think people realise just how absolutely awful it is for not just me and my family, but the emergency services, people, the police, the fire brigade, the ambulance service, the air ambulance.

• 22:40Speaker 02

  Everyone that's involved is absolutely one of the worst things that when you speak to the emergency services, you know, it's one of the common thread that I'd say it's the job you dread getting on the, on the radios. And I, I just wanted to tell chapter two that night in as much detail as I possibly could, because I, I want people to sit there and read and put themselves in that position and just understand why we need to do something. You know, if we look at the stats over the last 50 years, suicide rates remained pretty much the same, um, not just in the UK, but across the world. And I, I think without understanding why we need to do something and how just devastating it is in that moment and traumatic.

• 23:19Speaker 02

  We, we can't ever have a proper conversation about why we need to stop it. So for me, oh yeah, I look back, I've still, I've still got this. It could, it was at chapter two, it was the first time I went back into his room as well, because I wanted to sort of really experience it and, and work, and sort of work out what I wanted the book to be at that point as well, because I think as well, the other misconception, being proud about writing a book is you start it knowing where it's going to go. And I didn't with this one.

• 23:44Fearne Cotton?

  No.

• 23:44Speaker 02

  I wanted to sort of see where it went. But yeah, I went into his room and, and it was a lot, it was a lot, um, to just suddenly flood back and but having said that, putting it onto a page was one of the most incredible experiences. You must have found the same, but like it was. Really weird, writing this just brutal, detailed, horrific, traumatic experience onto paper, almost felt like it was, it was out there, it was like, oh, there it is. It's almost like taking it out of your own head and putting it on the paper. And it was, it was an amazing experience and I'm really proud of that chapter, actually, because it took a huge step for me to write it.

• 24:22Speaker 02

  But also, it, it's one of the rare, it's rare in itself, that there's not many, there's not many things that you can see online or in, on TV or in books that's so explicit, that gives you such an insight into the intricacies of what happens when someone takes their own life. And that feels special to me because I don't, I think people need to understand what happened. And it's, it's just, oh god, it was just awful, absolutely awful. I mean, you mentioned nightmare, it wasn't, I, I literally took a photo of it happening because I didn't realise that, because I thought it was a dream, I was so convinced that it was a nightmare, that I was like, I have to take a photo because that's not

• 25:05Speaker 02

  going to be here tomorrow. And how great will that be? I wake up and, oh, the photo's not there. And obviously, you know, it, it was still there on my phone the next morning. And that was the beginning of a huge, huge change in my life.

• 25:20Fearne Cotton?

  I mean, yeah, a life, life altering evening in every sense. And you very articulately describe the shock, the trauma, every emotion that's running through your body and mind at that point. Shock is such a strange one, because I think we react, our, our bodies and minds are quite clever in trying to cope with situations that are too overwhelming to process in the moment. And that shock led you to still feel like it was all a bit too surreal to believe. And you took yourself off to school the next morning.

• 25:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 26:00Fearne Cotton?

  I mean, looking back, how does that feel, that you tried to trot back in and just carry on?

• 26:06Speaker 02

  Well, I did. I mean, I, I was so happy to be back at school. I mean, everyone at school got told what had happened that morning.

• 26:14Fearne Cotton?

  It was literally the night before.

• 26:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, they, they must have seen me coming in school being like, this is some sick joke, what's going on? Because I didn't mention, I was happy, I was laughing, I was, I think I, I remember I sort of skipped up towards my, this group of people and I was like, hey, everyone, how's everyone doing? They must have been like, what on earth's going on? I think for me, uh, that was a real physical rejection of what had gone on. Like, my, my body just went, no, that's not happened, that's not happening. And it was, I think people think of denial as like a mental thing. For me, that mental thing just was so powerful, it became, I am going to completely reject this. I'm gonna get in my car and do what I'd normally do on a Monday evening and go to school for an after school thing that I, that I was part of.

• 26:59Speaker 02

  And yeah, I just went trotting in and smiling and happy and pretending like nothing had happened. And then, I mean, partly because I hadn't slept at all, so I was just exhausted. That sort of crept up on me quite quickly and I was realised, I was teaching this lesson, I was like, mm, can't really teach, I'm not gonna be able to do this, this isn't fair, I'm really exhausted. And then I sort of left and then bumped into these random people from my year group that were just walking along the path. And they stopped and they were like, I mean, must have been, again, must have been shocking for them, but they were like, so sorry to hear about all this. And they hugged me and I was like, wow, this, that's, you, I was dragged back to reality so quickly. And bless them, that must, that was so lovely to get in that moment.

• 27:37Speaker 02

  And I just remember sitting in my car in January, it was night, it was dark and just like whacking my steering wheel until the car was like beeping just beside myself. And then I had to be like, well, I'm not gonna drive home now, I need to like go and just cool down for a little bit. And it was that basically describes how it was for a good period of time, which was when I felt able to, I would pretend it didn't happen and would just be my normal self. And then suddenly something would happen that would trigger me or I got tired and it would just fall apart. And I'd fall off the cliff and just sort of realise that everything was real and it was all happening. And then I'd get my strength back and I'd go up to this pretending. And it was, it was exhausting, but I guess it just showed how much I just wanted it not to be real.

• 28:22Speaker 02

  That for weeks I was going through these moments of just really living as if it hadn't happened.

• 28:28Fearne Cotton?

  Grief's so weird, isn't it?

• 28:29Speaker 02

  Oh, it's so weird. I still don't really understand it.

• 28:31Fearne Cotton?

  No, no, because it's not this process that makes sense where you incrementally just feel okay. It's like, like you said. That's a really good description of these moments of almost sort of numbness where you're like, it's not happening, I'm in denial. And then it hits you again, and then you go back to numb again. I think most people that have been through grief would go, yeah, I've absolutely. And then you feel a bit guilty when you feel numb or you're carrying on with your everyday life. Shouldn't I be feeling something? You know, it's so confusing. And as you touched on earlier, feeling that sense of guilt, but also the next level down, which is shame. And I'm sure many people, including myself, have felt extreme shame about things in life.

• 29:14Fearne Cotton?

  It's probably one of the ugliest emotions to feel. It makes your skin crawl. It makes you just wanna escape everything. It's just a horrible, toxic, toxic feeling. You at one point, again, I'm imagining due to your level of shock and grief, felt responsible for Sam's death. And that was grinding you down and bringing on so much shame. How did you start to lift yourself out of that? I think when you're in shame, you feel like, this is it forever. I'm never ever gonna rid myself of this. What helped you to move through that?

• 29:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's an interesting question. It's funny, isn't it? Because I've done so much work. I don't feel that shame anymore, thankfully. But I sometimes need to remind myself of just how intense that was. So I mean, I'm very unfortunately, you know, as we were brothers, like we argued a lot, got on quite a lot. But one of the last things that happened, well, the last thing that happened between me and Sam was as he was leaving, I sort of shouted something off after him because I was annoyed at how he'd not been involved in dinner. And it ended up being the last thing I ever said to him was just this heated argument. And that just crushed me because I realised, I can't remember when, but maybe not the day after, but like when things had started to settle, I just remembered what had happened. And I was like, oh my God, he did it because of me.

• 30:36Speaker 02

  He did it because of that conversation. And I went into this absolute panic. And realised, and obviously the nature of shame is, you feel a bit of shame, then you feel ashamed about that, and then it will just cascade. And I, I just remember panicking, feeling that shame. And it got so intense that I couldn't, I felt like I couldn't tell anyone about it. Because I thought everyone else had forgotten that happened. And if I was to say something, bearing in mind we had the police at our house, like detectives and stuff. I was like, oh, I'm gonna get arrested. It's my fault. Like, they're gonna arrest me for manslaughter or something. And it seems silly sitting here saying it, but I was so convinced I'd committed a crime.

• 31:17Speaker 02

  That I was absolutely petrified of anyone finding out, that I felt so ashamed. And I guess that probably played a little bit into me trying to pretend like I was okay. And being happy because I just wanted it. I really, really, really was scared of, of going to prison and being arrested for this.

• 31:32Fearne Cotton?

  So much for you to deal with.

• 31:34Speaker 02

  I'm seventeen, I know.

• 31:35Fearne Cotton?

  At seventeen, like, but also you've lost your brother and then you think it's your fault. I, I don't know how you got through it.

• 31:43Speaker 02

  No, I know. And I guess for a long time, it was just sort of pretending that I was okay. Luckily for me, like, I had an absolute, I mean, my family were just incredible. My friends were incredible. I don't think I'd be as good a friend as they were. It was just, I just have so much respect and awe. And admiration for how all of those, those people were for me. Um, so I was very, very lucky in terms of like the support network. But also, you know, my, the campaigning started. I realised I wanted to do something. I realised I needed something fun to do. At that moment in time, I was revising for my A levels and I just went, hmm, life at the moment is A level revision or grief. And I, I want a third option. So I wanted to do something fun.

• 32:25Speaker 02

  And that, that gave me a sense of self-worth that I needed, I think, at that point. But really, the turning point of shame was the first time I told that story about feeling like I was gonna be arrested. To a lovely, lovely, lovely councillor that I worked with for a number of years, Lucy. And I remember sitting there. It was during Covid, so it was virtually. And just sort of telling this story, it took me many, many, many sessions to get to this point of feeling comfortable saying this. And I just told her how I've actually felt about everything and I told her about like how what I felt about that night and why I think he took his own life that night. And she just stopped me and she was just like, whoa, Ben, that's not how it works.

• 33:07Speaker 02

  You know, that's not how it works. It is nothing you did made that happen and it's not your fault. And it was just this weird moment. It almost feels like a movie, like I'm making this up, but it was this moment where it's like. Oh my God, yeah, you are so right. And it it took me years. I think I was four years later. To get to that point of like, someone else told me it wasn't my fault and that was enough for my brain to go, oh yeah, of course it isn't. And that was the first, that was the first moment I really was okay with it not being my fault. And from that moment, like I've, I've spoken to a lot of people that have been suicidal. And one of the questions I ask all of them is like, what do you think in that moment? What's that? What is that last thought before you, before you like commit to what you, to what you're about to do?

• 33:50Speaker 02

  What is that last thought? And, and none of them have said it's that argument or that one thing someone's shouted at me. Or it's that one menial moment that, that someone thinks about, you know, it's, it's not. If I'm talking to those people, it's so settling that actually in that moment, your brain is just in such a distorted place. That you're not having thoughts that make sense. And that with that's been very settling and I've sort of tried to understand, not that you can understand too much about suicide. But I've tried to understand and through that I've felt settled back, back that actually I didn't do anything wrong. And I've reframed a lot of my shame to go, how on earth was seventeen year old Ben so unaware and so uneducated?

• 34:35Speaker 02

  That I didn't get the tools to help because if my current self went back to being seventeen. I know so much more. I could have, I could, I do help people that are in that situation. Like I, I love, I work for Shout as a volunteer. Like I have conversations with people that are in crisis all the time. I would be able to help. Like if I'd had that knowledge back then, and my mum had had her knowledge back then, my family had their knowledge back then, the school had the knowledge they have now back then. What could have been different? It's just, it's not, it's hard to think about. Um, but I guess, you know, it comes back to the campaigning that.

• 35:06Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 35:06Speaker 02

  We can now try and make a difference. Um, and a lot of my shame got redirected into anger at why I wasn't given that opportunity to essentially save Sam.

• 35:16Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, how interesting. How interesting that emotions can morph into something completely different, like a level up. And actually you're channeling that anger into, well, I'm gonna bloody well make changes. And you are, I mean, massive ones, which, which we're going to get to. But I think it's so important for people who have either been through something similar or just feel shame to know that it's not your fault. And you've done that via someone telling you, a brilliant counselor, but also by educating yourself and knowing that it's an illness. And there's nothing that you potentially could have done that evening to stop that from happening. This might sound like a bit of a stupid question, but do you think that Sam had the access to the support that he needed at that time?

• 36:00Fearne Cotton?

  Cause I think it, it sounds like a stupid question to ask because he obviously didn't. But I know some people might get access, but then still take their own life.

• 36:12Speaker 02

  Really, really, really, really interesting question because yes and no. Um, Sam was receiving treatment. He was on a waiting list for NHS support, but was, you know, we, my mum most probably realised how significant this was and just put him into private therapy off her own back. Um, so essentially, yes, he was receiving CBT, but the, the investigation into what was going on was very surface level. So they were, they were treating him like a person with depression, which, you know, CBT is actually a very effective form of therapy for a lot of people.

• 36:54Speaker 02

  It does work. It saves lots of people's lives. But we know that CBT. Cognitive behavioural therapy has quite a low efficacy rate with people who are neurodiverse.

• 37:06Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, right.

• 37:07Speaker 02

  So people with autism particularly, CBT doesn't work as well as.

• 37:12Fearne Cotton?

  I did not know this. This is fascinating. Do we know why?

• 37:15Speaker 02

  Um, it's how their thoughts work. I mean, if you're trying, CBT essentially is trying to rewire thought patterns and, and understand and thoughts in your own head. And it's with someone with autism, for instance, that has a very different way of thinking about things. And arrives at decisions in a slightly different way. The, the just premise of CBT doesn't quite work as well. So, and I've spoken to a lot of, I've got a really, really close friend of mine who's a clinical psychologist and I've spoken to him on a number of occasions. And the fact that no one went that step further and went, I think there's something else going on here. Let's just get you in for an assessment for autism, ADHD, neurodiversity. Because then we can get a better idea of what's going on and we can tailor that support better to you.

• 37:59Speaker 02

  Because Sam was, Sam just played the system, from what I've heard. He, he knew exactly what to say. He knew exactly what to say to stop everyone worrying. He wanted to come across like everything was going well, like therapy was going well. One of the last things his psychologist said to my mum when she had her like catch up with them was, he's really low risk. We have no concerns. It's all going really well. Right. And I think for me, if we analyse that, something really, really, really fundamental has gone wrong. In their approach to his treatment, for them to arrive at a conclusion that he's low risk, when he, he was, he was imminently about to die. So for me and, and from talking to people, what needed to happen was more investigation into actually what's going on his brain.

• 38:44Speaker 02

  Mapping how he thinks, whether he's neurodiverse, what's going on there, which, you know, in retrospectively, it's almost certainly had some level of, of autism. And, and then being able to provide different therapies and, and tailored therapies to, to support him. Um, but unfortunately, as, as we all know from the news recently, getting those diagnoses of autism, ADHD. Even getting an assessment for them is just so inaccessible. And then that sort of comes back to a point when I sort of sit here and I'm feeling myself going into campaigner mode now, but I'm like, you know, actually, it's not just about missing out on diagnosis of autism and ADHD, but actually, if we don't have access to those assessments, people that are having CBT don't fully understand why

• 39:27Speaker 02

  or if it's not working for them. So there's a whole conversation to be had there about, like, our limitations by not having access to looking at a person as a whole person, rather than just going, you have depression, we do CBT. We can't get stuck in that situation. So to answer your question, yes, he was receiving treatment, but the quality of treatment was just shocking because no one bothered or no one thought to go beyond that. And it's not like I have blame for them. I think we are all learning. The mental health situation is adapting and evolving rapidly at the moment. There's a lot of research going in. I guess the anger for me when I talk about it is that that research and understanding wasn't already available. But again, it sort of folds back into the campaigner aspect of

• 40:09Speaker 02

  this and what I keep coming back to, which is that we need to get that research started. We need to get that understanding started because if that counselor or that therapist and that psychotherapist and psychiatrist had better understanding of what they should be doing to treat him, then good quality treatment could have made a massive difference. So yeah, so the answer is yes and no.

• 40:30Fearne Cotton?

  It's so interesting. I mean, I didn't know that and I, I love learning about this stuff and I spend a lot of time looking into this stuff. That's essential for me to know that. I'm glad that you've just told me that. And it feels like, you know, so much of this goes back to huge systemic problems we've got in the world, not just in the UK, in terms of getting that access to the right support. And it not just being like, here's a counselor, but, and I know you write about this in the book, even through your own mental health journey, finding the right one. I mean, I've been through.

• 41:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 41:05Fearne Cotton?

  Tums. And you've got to find, and it's not, it's not, it's not that they're not doing a good job all the time. You've got to gel with them. You've got to feel you can trust them. You've got to feel that level of safety that you can open up to people and have those chats.

• 41:18Speaker 02

  It's like dating.

• 41:19Fearne Cotton?

  It's like dating. It really is.

• 41:21Speaker 02

  It should feel like dating because you're choosing someone to trust. So it should, the first few sessions with a counsellor should feel like you're on a date.

• 41:28Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 41:29Speaker 02

  I mean, obviously, you know, ethically, let's not do a date, but.

• 41:32Fearne Cotton?

  Just on a surface chat level.

• 41:34Speaker 02

  Maybe don't go to Wagamamas with them.

• 41:35Fearne Cotton?

  No, no.

• 41:37Speaker 02

  But it should feel like you, it should feel like you're like really exploring them. Do you feel comfortable with them? Because if, the fundamentals of therapy is like, it's not like being treated with antibiotics. Like you need, there's a human connection that needs to be had there. If you don't feel comfortable with them, then leave, you know, you take, you try and take your money elsewhere or try and, and approach the person that's, you know, running your, operating your care, if you're under NHS care plan, have that conversation.

• 42:03Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 42:04Speaker 02

  Um, tell them you're not happy with this person. Be quite forceful. Um, try and get someone that you feel comfortable with because I hear from so many people that feel stuck with someone that they don't trust, that's, that's patronizing for whatever reason. Um, and obviously we've got a whole issue of access to treatment, but if you can, be honest about what you need and the person that you're talking to, because there is options available in terms of swapping and getting someone else or seeing someone else. Yeah, fine, they might be limited, but there is, there is a chance that someone go, okay, that's fine. We're going to try something else or bring someone else in that you might feel better with. Um, so it's always worth being honest about how you're feeling. But yeah, consider it a date, the first few.

• 42:43Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, it's a good way of thinking about it.

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• 44:21Fearne Cotton?

  I can't stop thinking about this. So with you saying there a moment ago that you knew, or retrospectively, you know that Sam was playing the system to a degree and that his therapist seemed happy enough with his psychotherapist with, you know, how he was reacting to the treatment. That probably made your mum feel slightly calmer, I'm imagining. You were a teenage boy, you hadn't had that chat, as we've already discussed. There'll be many people out there who probably have an inkling that someone they live with or are friends with are not doing well, yet whenever they ask, they are met with, "I'm fine. I'm absolutely fine." Like, there's nothing wrong. How do we get to the truth of it? How do we get to what's really going on?

• 45:04Fearne Cotton?

  Because I think people that are suffering, and, you know, we know that there are a whole host of mental health issues out there that make people feel extremely isolated. I've definitely been there with all manner of things, whether it's eating disorders or OCD, that I don't often want to go there with those thoughts or feelings, or admit them in the moment when someone asks, "How are you doing?" You think, "I don't, I can't be bothered to go there with this right now." Do you or have you learned through the campaigning you're doing to know what the right questions are to ask or to know the tact so you can approach that subject and really find out what's going on? Because people are experts at masking, they're great at saying, and especially as we know with neurodivergence, autism, ADHD, masking is

• 45:47Fearne Cotton?

  a huge symptom essentially of people going into social situations and acting as if they feel fine, but they're feeling total social anxiety or like running out the room, whatever. But the masking keeps them in the setting they're meant to be in at work or school, whatever it might be. How do we get to the truth of how someone's really feeling?

• 46:08Speaker 02

  Hmm. It's an interesting one. I think when we, when we think about talking about mental health, it can be easy to immediately talk about how we ask the question. But actually, to create a conversation with someone, a supportive conversation, you know, our preparation needs to begin before, long before the conversation actually starts. So what I'd say is firstly, let's, let's identify why someone's feeling like they need to mask it. Is it awkwardness? Is it stigma? Is it the environment? Sort of assessing why someone might be just saying, I'm fine, I'm fine. You know, just assessing why. Do they feel comfortable talking to you? Is it the wrong environment? To use an example, if someone's got an eating disorder and you're asking them around lunchtime, you know, they're going to feel vulnerable.

• 46:52Speaker 02

  They're not going, they're going to mask, they're going to not want to talk about it.

• 46:55Fearne Cotton?

  Well, also, that's such a secret one. I mean, my mum used to confront me about, she would have, she would assume that I was being sick in the toilet and I would go like re-defensive. No, no, I'm not. And it took years for me to admit that one. You know, like a lot of, a lot of these mental health issues, they thrive in secrecy. That's the whole point. So you're, you're so right to pinpoint that one because that, you've got to be tactful with the timing and when you're talking about that.

• 47:22Speaker 02

  When you say that you You went defensive. What was that, what was that feeling that made you feel like you had to go, I'm fine, I'm fine?

• 47:31Fearne Cotton?

  Um, I didn't want her to bust me. I was like, I, I don't wanna stop doing this. So if I admit that it's happening, then I'm gonna have to do something about it. And I didn't want to. It was my private thing and I didn't want her knowing about it. And I feel awful putting my mum through that at the time, you know, it's horrible stress for a parent to go through. But I think so many of these mental health issues, they thrive in secrecy. And you become defensive because you're, you're like, oh, I didn't think anyone knew this was happening. I don't, I didn't want you to know about this and I sure don't want you to now because I'm not gonna fix this anytime soon. So it's a tricky one because you need to be helped, but you're so unwilling in that moment.

• 48:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, it sounds like there was an element of, of not wanting to lose control.

• 48:19Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, yeah.

• 48:19Speaker 02

  And having someone else take control of the situation. So if we take that, for example, if potentially we, we come up with the fact that maybe they don't wanna lose control of the situation. Then, then the next question we ask is how can we, how can we not confront? Because that's never going to achieve anything. How can we not come across as confrontational, but really come alongside them? Because everything in terms of mental health is teamwork, like it doesn't work if it's, there's a power dynamic, it has to be teamwork. Um, so if we assess, for example, that someone's scared of losing control. Maybe, for instance, they've been sectioned in the past and they're really, really worried about being sectioned again. How do we then ask them in a way that's not gonna make them lose control? We're saying it, you know?

• 49:02Speaker 02

  Um, and then before we have that conversation, the final thing we need to think about is if you really want to get someone to, to talk about something, it's just don't be ambiguous about what you're asking. For example, in the, this situation we're sort of constructing here, someone's been sectioned before in the past. There's displaying symptoms that were similar to how they were before. They're really not gonna talk because they're so worried about being, being sectioned. Then it's a case of, I know you're probably concerned because of what happened before, but I've noticed these things. We don't have to do anything, but I just interested in hearing if, like how you're. Feeling at the moment and and just sort of constructing it like that. I've noticed this. I understand that you might not wanna talk because of this, but I don't have to do anything, but we let's have a conversation about it.

• 49:45Speaker 02

  Right? And we can just see where it goes. And I think that's a really powerful way of doing it because in that moment, there is no power dynamic. So you're very much coming alongside, you're reassuring against their fears, which is losing control. So you're saying, you don't have to do anything. I'm just interested to hear what's going on. And you're not being ambiguous. You're saying, I've noticed this. That's a statement and then we can have a conversation. So they know that you've seen something. So it's it's harder to then sort of go, I'm fine, I'm fine. So if you can do that, and and I think if we just use that conversation as a as a model, that's a great way of sort of approaching that situation. But from that, we can go, well, really, if we want to have a conversation with anyone.

• 50:25Speaker 02

  A power dynamic is the is the antithesis of a supportive conversation. So how can we come alongside? How can we come along as a friend, as a family member, as a team and work together? And I think when we're supporting someone, the most powerful thing you can say is you don't have to do any of this on your own, you know? Like, we're gonna work on this together, or we're gonna come up with a plan together. Let's go and research some things together. And that word together is just, oh, it's just revolutionary in a conversation, because it's not you saying, I think you should do this, or I think you should go and see the G P, or I think you should um talk to me about this stuff. It's going, let's do this together. Let's really walk alongside each other and come up with a plan together. You don't have to do this on your own. Um, and to address, you know, what we talked about with you, which is that element of control.

• 51:10Speaker 02

  You'll get, you're not taking control away.

• 51:11Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 51:12Speaker 02

  You know, they are doing it with you. Um, so that should sort of, that's how I would do it now.

• 51:17Fearne Cotton?

  That's really helpful to hear that, because I think it's the tone that we we struggle with.

• 51:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 51:24Fearne Cotton?

  People don't know. Whether you're meant to like call someone out, or it feels like you're calling them out on their behaviour. Or some people, I'm always like very solution led, so I could easily fall into the trap of going, I've got all the answers.

• 51:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 51:38Fearne Cotton?

  And I'm gonna fix this. But I love that idea of it's it's teamwork. You're working with this person on their terms to start with. So it's gentle. And that you can go away and do the research and learn together. I think that's a really cool thing to hear. I really like that.

• 51:55Speaker 02

  And not many people think of it like that.

• 51:57Fearne Cotton?

  No.

• 51:58Speaker 02

  Because you said, I mean, most people are what we call rescuers, right? They see someone drowning and they wanna just jump in and like drag them out, right? Most people are like that. We have that sort of instinctive thing of going, oh, you should do this. I know what to fix in your situation. But when you study motivational interviewing, it's like a really amazing um a technique in this. And when you, when you, you know, do shout training and you were on the shout platform as a crisis volunteer. And, you know, I teach mental health first aid. And the sort of common theme in all of that is giving advice is never going to work because it creates that paradigm and it's very invalidating of someone.

• 52:33Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 52:33Speaker 02

  Um. And one of the best things I've been told is you, you can feel like you know what you're doing and what advice to give someone, but the only person that knows exactly what's going on is that person. So allowing them by asking questions, allowing them to come up with the conclusions to what they need to do next is the most powerful thing. And also, it's probably, if you can do that, they're much more likely to follow through because they've come up with it themselves. So it's not going, oh, you should do this, because then people are like, oh, yeah, okay, fine, fine, fine. But actually, if they've come up with an idea and you go, that's an amazing idea, that's such a good idea, yeah, definitely do that. Then they're gonna be, well, they're gonna feel a sense of pride.

• 53:13Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 53:14Speaker 02

  Come up with that myself. And they're already sort of bought into the idea of doing it. So yeah, I feel like that. I really, really, really, really struggle not to give advice.

• 53:21Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, same.

• 53:23Speaker 02

  Oh, I've got this going on. I'm like, oh, you should go and see your GP because that's what they really be able to help. Or you should just talk to that person at work that you're not getting on with. It's so hard not to, but once you crack that and you can understand like how you can get them to arrive at that decision that you want them to do. Then it's a, it's a really, really, really, really powerful way of getting someone to talk and, and get support.

• 53:45Fearne Cotton?

  Um, I think also for parents, that's a really cool thing to hear because kids' reaction, whatever age, usually when you're offering advice is like, oh my God, shut up. Like stop wanging on about all the things you know and I don't. And I think many parents, you know, you, you, you clash. Because that's the, it's the power dynamic at play. I mean, to dive into this further in terms of what to do if someone's struggling. One of the horrendous stats, we know all of these stats, but there's no harm in us repeating them again to read. And also, you know, you, you say in the book, a lot of the time when we're throwing big percentages and numbers around, you just go numb to it like, yeah, eight billion trillion, whatever people are suffering like we, we become switched off.

• 54:29Fearne Cotton?

  But actually, we need to try and understand that the statistics are bleak so that we can do something about it. So, so let's dive into the disparity between genders because seventy five percent of all suicides in the UK are men. I mean, seventy five percent. We can't feel numb to that. We can picture one hundred people and then see seventy five. It's a hell of a lot. Are we able to reduce it down to men don't talk about things as much as women? Because that always seems to be the sort of conclusion or the loose assumption we can come to. In the work you've done, would you say that's accurate or is there more lurking beneath that?

• 55:15Speaker 02

  This is a really interesting question and one that's evolving a lot. I think this year I've seen so many people really challenging that. To a certain extent, yes, of course, there is an issue with men talking about emotions. Like my girlfriend, when she meets up with her friends, she will chat, she'll come back, she'll know absolutely everything that's going on in their life. And I'll come back from seeing my mates and she's just like, oh, you know, how's this person, how's, you know, he's broken up with his girl, how is he doing? And I'm like.

• 55:39Fearne Cotton?

  I literally know what's going on with every body part of my girlfriends, how they're emotionally dealing with things. It is, it's a funny difference.

• 55:47Speaker 02

  And it is weird and sometimes, because I obviously do this a lot and talk about these conversations a lot. Sometimes I sort of step back in a conversation and just watch it and I'm like, we're not really talking about anything. So I think there's an element of, there is an element of, we don't talk about emotions as much as women. But I do think there's more to it. There is a lot more to this than just men don't talk. There is the sort of stereotypical feelings amongst men of like being providers and all of this. And so when we actually look at the suicide data, you know, of that, that seventy five percent of men, the majority of those men are middle aged. So it's clearly at some point, they've sort of reached this age where maybe they come into a huge amount of debt.

• 56:26Speaker 02

  Or start, you know, using alcohol, or maybe they lose access to their children or go through a divorce. We see, and this is all just assumptions at that point, because I don't know the data. But we see there's a real increase in suicides for middle aged men. And I'm trying to think like, maybe there's more to this conversation about than just talking. Um, maybe we have to have conversations about, you know, the, the, the treatment of men to a certain extent. Which we've tried, for the right reasons, we've tried to dismantle the patriarchy and all of these things. But by doing that, we have left an enormous amount of men sort of very confused about where they.

• 57:02Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 57:02Speaker 02

  Fit in the world. And, and I, I think we've left a lot of people behind in that conversation. I mean, we look at. Andrew Tate, for example, you know, you could be very, you could be excused at looking at the people that have followed him and, and really love what he's saying as sort of extremists and just completely aggressive and anti-women. But actually, I think what's really interesting about that is actually there's clearly a whole group of men in particular that have been completely left behind in this conversation that are so confused about their role that they've really like knuckled down and just sort of tied themselves down to this old traditional patriarchal.

• 57:38Fearne Cotton?

  Because they're scared.

• 57:39Speaker 02

  Because they're confused and don't know what their role is. So it's a really, really, really interesting question about why the seventy five percent. And I think we're moving now beyond men don't talk because I'm sure that's part of it. I'm absolutely sure that's, that's an element of it. But I think it does, it needs to go further than that. And I, I, I think that there's, there's something to do with the sort of fundamental societal roles of men that just gets to a point where they, they just don't see many other options. And, and suicide is seems like the only option at the time. So it's an interesting question. I don't really know the answer. And this is why, this is why, like you, I just love talking to people because the more you talk to people, the more you sort of go,

• 58:22Speaker 02

  oh, that's interesting in your situation. And actually, a lot of men that have felt like that, that I've talked to, do talk, right? They tell people about these things.

• 58:30Fearne Cotton?

  There's no one answer.

• 58:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, no, exactly.

• 58:32Fearne Cotton?

  It's too big.

• 58:33Speaker 02

  It is.

• 58:34Fearne Cotton?

  It's too big. And there's no one solution that, you know, there's millions of things that need to happen to make changes and not just with men. Another thing that you are deeply passionate about is looking at not only the school system, but also university. Because again, you present us with some pretty gruesome facts about suicide in universities and the lack of, not only lack of support, but lack of acknowledgement that it's even happening in universities. And the fact that people go for the first time, leave home, staying with people they don't know in a completely strange environment, of course, people are suffering, and let alone even bringing lockdown into the equation. You've started all sorts of incredible campaigns and petitions and ones that have gained so much traction. I mean, you've sat with.

• 59:18Fearne Cotton?

  Boris Johnson and tried to get him to listen.

• 59:23Speaker 02

  Tried.

• 59:23Fearne Cotton?

  Tried desperately.

• 59:23Speaker 02

  Tried is the right word.

• 59:24Fearne Cotton?

  To get him to listen to what you're saying and what you know needs to be done.

• 59:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 59:28Fearne Cotton?

  What have you seen change in the time that you've been campaigning, which I'm sure you would be really humble and say, oh, maybe I've had a bit to do with it. I'm pretty sure you've had a lot to do with a lot of these changes, but what do you think is moving in the right direction within this conversation?

• 59:43Speaker 02

  We've identified problems, which is sort of, it's a very basic step in this whole problem, but it's a good step. Which is that NHS Mental Health Service doesn't function like it should at all, nowhere near. We've got this problem that we're identifying with neurodiversity diagnosis, just that. And the knock on effect that has, which I've described, is just really, really dangerous. We've, we've found that there's a gap in schools, which obviously is something I'm really passionate about. But then it just feels like we're not making the step further. We've gone, this is all that's wrong. We know this is wrong, but we're not really then doing anything. And I think it's one, there's one thing going, this isn't working. There's a completely different thing going, this is what we can do to fix it.

• 1:00:27Speaker 02

  And I've been really careful in my work is, I love complaining. I love, I love a complaint. It's therapeutic to complain, but you know, it's not helpful to go. You know, it just broken, mental health service is broken, schools aren't performing like they should. We like, it's all just broken. And you've got to be careful, particularly in my role, to not just say that and, and think of that as a successful thing to say. So then it's a case of like, okay, what do we need to do? So in schools, for instance, that's why I started the petition for teacher training, because I realised that, yeah, schools aren't doing what they should in terms of mental health support. But hold on, we're not teacher training, you receive no education on mental health or.

• 1:01:08Speaker 02

  You have no idea how a child's brain works. I mean, how how can you possibly do the job as a teacher without having any understanding of children's mental health? It just doesn't make sense to me. So I'm like, well, there's there we go. There's an immediate fix. Let's integrate that into teacher training so that every single teacher in the UK has some level of understanding of mental health.

• 1:01:26Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:26Speaker 02

  It's not going to solve the whole thing overnight, but it's going to do a really good job at starting that that shift. You know, and then with universities, it's the same thing. There was a lot of this is a problem, which it is. Well, actually, there's a lot of people that still deny that there is a problem.

• 1:01:40Fearne Cotton?

  I know. I mean, tell, tell, please explain this in more detail because I I was shocked about.

• 1:01:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:01:44Fearne Cotton?

  What you went through with this.

• 1:01:46Speaker 02

  Oh, uni, the uni, the uni campaigning I sort of stumbled upon. So I went to uni. Just after Sam died, actually, September twenty eighteen. So I was like, not in a good place when I started university and. And I had a great time. I met some amazing people that are still my friends now. But realised quite quickly, because then we went into lockdown, realised quite quickly that, wow, there's an issue here that no one's talking about mental health. I remember getting an email from the Vice Chancellor saying, you know, they had a they had a weekly update about Covid and what was going on. So we got a weekly email that said, this is what's going on with Covid nineteen. Um, this is all of our rules. This is what we're doing. This is how we're updating the rules. And it was like a two-page-long email.

• 1:02:27Speaker 02

  And right at the bottom of the email, it said, um, if you are struggling. Uh, here's the website and here's the number for students for, thanks, whatever his name was. And I was like, hmm, no one's, I know students, we've not read to the end of that email. I've only read to it because I am interested in seeing if they've said it. Like, hmm, I, how do you not know?

• 1:02:48Fearne Cotton?

  No one's got past the first line. Let's be honest.

• 1:02:50Speaker 02

  I had to open it in another window to see this. Like, what student opens it in another window?

• 1:02:55Fearne Cotton?

  No, no, none.

• 1:02:55Speaker 02

  So I was like, okay, let's clear. So I emailed them back and I pushed back and I was like, that's just shows how little consideration I should give this. And they invited me for a meeting and blah, blah, blah. But at the same time, I was getting. As everyone does with social media that talks about mental health, a lot of people reach out with stories. And those stories started to become, oh, my God, my friends just died at uni. Like, they just found him in his room. Or another person, this person's missing. Can you please share this? And it was just almost felt like. Felt like daily, I was getting these messages, you know, I've got messages saying, um, we have tried to call an ambulance for a friend.

• 1:03:34Speaker 02

  And uh, we've called the university to ask for help and they've said, because it's happening off campus, um, we can't help you. And and a lot of stories like that started coming through and I was like, this isn't right. And if everyone remembers, sorry to bring you all back to this moment, but remember in the COVID briefings and the COVID laws. It was if you have to obey by by lockdown unless you're a danger of harm. So that was predominantly for domestic abuse, rightly, you you're not, can't be legally forced to stay at home if you're in a dangerous situation. But I kept saying to students, I was like, if you are at risk of harm, you have absolutely every right to leave. So if you need to go home to your family because you're you're self harming or you're thinking about suicide, get out and go, just go, just drive.

• 1:04:18Fearne Cotton?

  Go and see a friend. This is life or death. Go and see a friend.

• 1:04:22Speaker 02

  So I kept saying that and I was, that was, that was helping. Some people were like, thank you for saying that. I didn't know that I was able to do that. I felt really trapped. I was like, brilliant.

• 1:04:28Fearne Cotton?

  Oh my god, I can't even, it's so bleak that we were all doing these stupid fucking rules. I'm sorry. I mean, that's life or death. That's life or death that we weren't seeing other humans.

• 1:04:41Speaker 02

  And no one else was, and I would have loved for someone in the media to have got to have to related that back to mental health. Because everyone was talking rightly about domestic abuse.

• 1:04:48Fearne Cotton?

  I was scared to, if I'm honest, because I felt like this is bleak. There are people out there I know that are on their own and they shouldn't be.

• 1:04:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:04:54Fearne Cotton?

  But it was such a scary time, like, are we allowed to say, fuck the rules, you need to go see a human. Like, that's life and death. That's life and death.

• 1:05:02Speaker 02

  It is. And for a lot of people it was. I mean, a lot of people died because they didn't have access to their supports. So. Anyway, so all of this going on and then I got in, very sadly, someone I was at school with, Phoebe, took her own life at Newcastle University. She wasn't in my year, she thinks she was a year below me. She was lovely. I remember sort of, I'd never was, I never spoke to her very much, but she was, uh, she was really into like art and drama, I think. So I like, I'd walk past the corridor and we'd like smile or whatever. And and she was always that person that was like really smiley. And yeah, she died in Newcastle during lockdown. And I reached out to her mum. And I was like, really, really sorry. That is just so, so awful. Um, and she was absolutely fuming at the university.

• 1:05:45Speaker 02

  Um, rightly so, because we've, we've seen the, the documents. Phoebe asked for help. She emailed the university. She pretty much told them she was going to take her own life and they, they didn't reply and didn't get back to her. And she was fuming, um, her mum, and she introduced me to a group of families that had all lost children at university. Devastating, devastating, devastating thing. When university is meant to be this really happy time to lose your child at university is just shocking.

• 1:06:11Fearne Cotton?

  It's awful.

• 1:06:11Speaker 02

  So I got introduced to this group of families and they were just, just so inspiring. One of them was suing Bristol University and subsequently won in that court case because their daughter had died. Uh, cause the university hadn't made reasonable adjustments when they knew that it was causing them harm. And we were together, we called for a um statutory duty of care. And what essentially what that means is right now, if anything happens to a university. The relationship between you and the university as a, as a student and a university is pretty much the same as like walking into Tesco and buying a meal deal, right? It's like consumer buying a product or a service and there's nothing more. And we know, we can sit here and this feels like the elephant in the room when you're in these conversations, but it's not like that.

• 1:06:54Fearne Cotton?

  No, no, no.

• 1:06:55Speaker 02

  You're living in university accommodation, you're you're twenty four seven at university. Yes, you're an adult, so you should be treated like an adult, but they, to just consider it like this complete, you know.

• 1:07:05Fearne Cotton?

  Also, you're paying thousands of pounds to be there. Let's also add that into the equation. It's not like you're, they're doing you a favour.

• 1:07:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's such a good point. So anyway, and, and the idea that some people are so desperate to support, it's not there. And, and also actually to extend this conversation further, there's a lot of sexual assault at university that's not dealt with. Because the university has absolutely no legal responsibility to do anything with that information. Because the duty of care doesn't exist between a university and its student. So there's a whole host of reasons why the duty of care law should be in place, in the same way that an employer has a duty of care to their staff, right? It makes so much sense.

• 1:07:40Fearne Cotton?

  Yes.

• 1:07:40Speaker 02

  So together with these families, we went to parliament and spent a lot of time calling for it. We did evidence hearings with select committees and and it did start a conversation and, and as anyone out there has known that's tried to get something done through government, it's a very, very slow process. I asked one of the uh, the like civil servants, just as we were going into our evidence hearing. I was like, so how long do you think this would take? Like, how long is this? Because she does this all the time with these petitions. She's like, how long does this take? And she just went, hmm, nine years.

• 1:08:12Speaker 02

  And I was like, I love the honesty. Thanks.

• 1:08:15Fearne Cotton?

  I was hoping like a week, ideally a week two, max.

• 1:08:19Speaker 02

  It was just how nonchalant. She was like, nine years.

• 1:08:21Fearne Cotton?

  Nine years.

• 1:08:22Speaker 02

  I was like, all right, okay. So, yeah, so it's any stuff like this is the long term.

• 1:08:27Fearne Cotton?

  But it's got to be done.

• 1:08:28Speaker 02

  It has to be done because, you know, it shouldn't be the case that someone goes to university and doesn't come home because of their own mental health. And universities need to do better. And I think we, we need to have an adult, grown up, mature conversation about the responsibility of unis towards their students. And at the moment, universities are acting in such an immature way. They're just basically going, I'm not hearing you. They're denying that suicides happen at universities. They're denying that there's a responsibility. I've had to my face when I was telling them about a student that died at the university. Someone said, oh, but you do know the suicide rate in universities is actually lower than the general population. And I was like, congratulations.

• 1:09:07Fearne Cotton?

  What?

• 1:09:08Speaker 02

  You know, well done. What do you mean to say? You know, that doesn't mean there's a, there's not a problem to be fixed. So, anyway, that's universities. There's a lot of work that needs to do there, but I do think it's an important conversation. And those families are just, just amazing.

• 1:09:20Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, what brilliant families to be going, I mean, alongside the pain and the grief to be, to be doing that. Oh, God, I, I can't even deal with how much we've like looked at in this chat. I have learned so much.

• 1:09:35Speaker 02

  I'm glad.

• 1:09:36Fearne Cotton?

  So much. I'm so grateful for you doing this podcast today. I've learned so many things I really needed to hear. I think that this chat, more than many others that I've done, is gonna really do something. You know, this is, people can hear this and go, I, I've got someone in my life that I know is having a tough time. And I now know that I need to address it or approach it. And I'm gonna get over the fear. And you've just talked about it in the most eloquent and brilliant way. And, um, and I just think what you're doing is so essential and so amazing. And it's been an absolute honour to talk to you today. Ben, thank you so much.

• 1:10:18Speaker 02

  Thank you so much for having me. It really means a lot to hear that as well.

• 1:10:22Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, God, thanks, Ben. Thank you so much. I mean, personally, thank you. I learned so much. I know it's not easy for Ben to just keep talking about these heavy, heavy moments and going over it all, although he's choosing to and he wants to because he knows it's impactful. But nonetheless, still not necessarily easy. So I'm very, very grateful that Ben gave us his time. He must follow Ben on Instagram because he's doing essential work in a brilliant way. And I urge you to read Ben's book, which, oh god, you know, you probably heard me say in this chat, was just quite game changing and really tricky to read at times and really enlightening to read too. It's called This Book Could Save Your Life. If that chat resonated with you

• 1:11:05Fearne Cotton?

  or any parts of it, I urge you to read it. Some other people who have talked really openly about turning the grief they've experienced into positive change, who have been on Happy Place, would be Ashley Kane on losing his daughter to leukaemia. That was, I mean, that chat I think about all the time. I wept throughout the whole thing. It was very raw. It was very close to the time and it was a really, really important chat. I mean, I don't think I even spoke in it, which I certainly didn't need to. It was just Ashley being brilliant. Richie Grant talked about the death of his wife beautifully not that long ago. And Roman Kemp was incredibly honest about the shame he felt in the aftermath of his friend's suicide. There'll be links to those episodes in the show notes. I know that you're going to have a lot to say after hearing

• 1:11:50Fearne Cotton?

  this chat with Ben, so let's carry on talking on Instagram during the week. Our Instagram handle is at Happy Place Official. All right, until next week, a huge thank you again to Ben, to the producer, Anushka Tate at Happy Place Studios, and to you, you gorgeous bunch.

• 1:12:32Speaker 06

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• 1:13:03Speaker 04

  Hello, I'm Joanna Fletcher. And I'm Marco Burchella. And this is Boots Off.

• 1:13:10Speaker 04

  We are friends who've spent a decade together, walking up mountains, across deserts and along coastlines with some seriously awesome groups of humans. And something happens when you're out there, feet on the ground, surrounded by nature. The conversations just spill out of you. This series is about the adversities that lead to adventure. The adventures that lead to adversity. And how life can be one big adventure in itself. Listen every Thursday, just search for Boots Off.