How To Stop Limiting Yourself And Liberate Your Full Potential with Nir Eyal #650

This podcast could change the way you think about every goal you’ve set, every relationship you’re struggling with – and every story you tell yourself about what you’re capable of. It all comes down to something most of us have never thought to question: our beliefs. And what you’ll hear in this conversation might be the most practical, liberating idea you come across all year. I’m speaking with Nir Eyal, the bestselling author of Hooked and Indistractable, whose powerful new book Beyond Belief draws on years of research into the psychology of why we limit ourselves – and how to stop. Nir opens the conversation with a striking claim: human beings never perceive reality as it truly is. Our brains filter everything through our existing beliefs and expectations, and most of the time, we have no idea it’s happening. The good news? Once you understand this, you can start choosing beliefs that actually work for you. In this conversation, we explore why persistence – not talent or intelligence – is the number one predictor of whether you’ll reach your goals. Nir reveals the crucial difference between pain and suffering, including the astonishing story of a man who underwent surgery without anaesthetic and felt no suffering at all. We talk about why positive thinking may not be the motivator you think it is, and what the research says you should do instead. And Nir shares his crucial insight that beliefs are tools, not truths. So we can choose which to adopt based on whether they serve us. Nir shares some personal stories of how he’s used his tools to lose weight, repair relationships and reframe his ADHD diagnosis as a skills gap not a debilitating condition. But what you’ll love most about listening is the clear, practical framework he gives us for doing the same. You’ll learn how to spot the beliefs that are draining you and ask, could the opposite be true, even just for a while? Whether you’re navigating a health challenge, a difficult relationship, a career crossroads, or just that nagging voice telling you it’s too late, tune in for the solution. It’s never too late to swap limiting beliefs for ones that liberate you instead. Fill out our audience survey via https://drchatterjee.com/survey Support the podcast and enjoy Ad-Free episodes. Try FREE for 7 days on Apple Podcasts https://apple.co/feelbetterlivemore. For other podcast platforms go to https://fblm.supercast.com. Thanks to our sponsors: https://dohealth.co/livemore https://thewayapp.com/livemore Show notes https://drchatterjee.com/650 DISCLAIMER: The content in the podcast and on this webpage is not intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the advice of your doctor or qualified healthcare provider. Never disregard professional medical advice or delay in seeking it because of something you have heard on the podcast or on my website. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  Most of the decisions we make in day-to-day life, they're not based on facts, they're based on beliefs. And so the startling revelation here is that your brain is lying to you. It's constantly deceiving you because the brain doesn't see reality as it is. It sees reality as it predicts it will be. So none of us are actually seeing reality as it is.

• 0:22Rangan Chatterjee?

  Hey guys, how are you doing? I hope you're having a good week so far. My name is Dr. Rangan Chatterjee and this is my podcast, Feel Better Live More.

• 0:35Rangan Chatterjee?

  If I asked you what the single biggest thing holding you back in life was, what would you say? A lack of time, maybe? A lack of willpower? Not enough skills or talent? Well, today's guest will tell you that none of those things are true. Instead, he makes the case that it's actually your existing beliefs, the ones you probably don't even realize you're carrying, that are limiting your potential the most. Nir Eyal is a behavioral design expert, an international bestselling author, whose brand-new book, Beyond Belief, explores something that's fascinated me for years.

• 1:16Rangan Chatterjee?

  The idea, we don't actually see the world as it is. Through a process called predictive processing, our brain presents a version of reality shaped by our existing beliefs and expectations. But we can reframe that reality and do things we never dreamed possible. In this episode, Nir takes us through some convincing research and extraordinary stories of persistence, from the rats who swam for 60 hours to the patients who take hypnosis over pain relief. "We don't fail because we've reached our limits," he says, "but because we've quit too early."

• 1:59Rangan Chatterjee?

  If we motivate ourselves with liberating beliefs, "I might be able to," rather than limiting ones, "I can't," the odds will be in our favor. Nir's key insight is that beliefs are tools, not truths. And that idea alone could change your life if you really sit with it and absorb it. Whether it's in your health, your relationships, your career, or just how you talk to yourself on a tough day, you deserve to reach your full potential. And if all you're thinking is it's too late or it's too hard, then I think this clear, practical

• 2:43Rangan Chatterjee?

  and empowering conversation might be exactly what you need to hear.

• 2:53Rangan Chatterjee?

  I wanted to start off by asking you about something that I think some people will regard as a little controversial and perhaps even confronting. Most of us are not seeing reality. We're seeing a version of the world created by our beliefs. What does that mean?

• 3:14Speaker 00

  It means that none of us are actually seeing reality as it is, that it's impossible. We can't. Our brains can't handle it. That we know that the brain is processing about 11 million bits of information per second. 11 million bits, to put that in perspective, that's the equivalent of reading War and Peace every second twice. It's a tremendous amount of information. So the brain can't deal with that much information. It can only consciously be aware of about 50 bits of information. So that means that you are seeing reality through this tiny pinhole of attention. So you're only seeing 0.000045% of what you think is reality. And so what the brain is doing is essentially filtering reality based on its beliefs.

• 3:58Speaker 00

  Not based on what reality is, but how we expect it to be. It's called predictive processing. And so understanding that we don't see reality clearly is at the core, I think, of living a good life. Because it's only when we free ourselves from this myth that we see everything that we see, feel and do because we believe it's a fact versus something that's much more malleable, that's truly what frees us, is that understanding that we don't see reality clearly.

• 4:29Rangan Chatterjee?

  For someone who might be pushing back against the idea right now, they're thinking, "Well, what do you mean? We don't see the world as it is. We see it based on our beliefs." Do you have any, I guess, concrete examples that can illustrate that point for people?

• 4:43Speaker 00

  Oh, the examples are endless from the research literature. When it comes to, I can show you an image, and based on where you were born, this is called the Koffler illusion, based on where you were born, you will either see squares or circles. Same exact image, but you will process it differently based on your background, whether you grew up in a rural environment or an urban environment. You can, we know that people who are on a diet see food as larger. People who are afraid of heights see distances as further. So the saying that "I'll believe it when I see it" is actually just as true backwards, that "I see it when I believe it."

• 5:23Rangan Chatterjee?

  Yeah. In your new book, Beyond Belief, which I absolutely love, you give so many examples of this. I remember, right at the start, there's a chessboard, a checkerboard.

• 5:33Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 5:34Rangan Chatterjee?

  And I was looking at it this morning because I still can't get my head around it. Can you explain that for people who are listening, perhaps? I mean, on the video, we'll maybe pop it up on screen.

• 5:42Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 5:42Rangan Chatterjee?

  But just help us understand that, and what are the implications of that for us?

• 5:46Speaker 00

  Sure. So there's a classic optical illusion where you see a checkerboard, and you, when you look at it, one square definitely looks darker than the other, for sure. Nobody looks at this and thinks that they're the same color, except they are the same color. That when we put bars of that shade of gray next to both squares, and you can see that they are definitely, in fact, the same color, even though they don't look like that. Now, that's nice, cute little optical illusion, but the question is, why? Why can't we see reality as it is? That even when you look back at the first image, that even though you know the squares are now the same color, you know intellectually that that is the case, you still can't see reality clearly.

• 6:30Speaker 00

  It still looks like square A is darker than square B, even when you know the truth. And so the startling reality here, or the startling revelation here, is that your brain is lying to you. It's constantly deceiving you. Because the brain doesn't see reality as it is. It sees reality as it predicts it will be. So based on your priors, what we call your prior beliefs, you can't see it any other way. Because to you, a checkerboard always looks a certain way. And so when we deceive the eyes and the brain, even when intellectually you know the answer, there's nothing you can do about it. You can't see it otherwise. And so that's why it's so important to realize that, you know, that's just an optical illusion. What about all the other myths and lies

• 7:14Speaker 00

  that I'm believing, that I've adopted for myself? We call these limiting beliefs, and we see this all the time. That, you know, the middle of the word, it's just a coincidence, we can't read too much into it, but you can't spell belief without lie. Yeah. It's in the middle of the word, right? And so I think it's important to differentiate what I think we get wrong about reality in a way. That facts and beliefs are different. That a fact is an objective truth. It is something that is true whether or not you believe it. So the world is more like a sphere than it is flat. That's a fact. Sorry, flat-earthers. The world doesn't, the shape of the globe doesn't care what you believe. That's an objective truth. You can't change objective truths. On the other end of the spectrum is faith.

• 7:58Speaker 00

  Faith is a conviction that does not require evidence. So God rewards the righteous. That's a matter of faith. Now, in between fact and faith, lies a belief. A belief is a conviction that is open to revision based on new evidence. And that's something new. And that's something I think we don't think about enough. That unfortunately... I think that most of our interpersonal, our problems with relationships, the difficulties we struggle with on our own, even our geopolitical problems, come from this unfortunate state of affairs that too many of us have this conviction that our faith is a fact and that what we think are facts are nothing more than beliefs.

• 8:43Rangan Chatterjee?

  Yeah, I mean, I love, I love this topic. It's something I've been thinking deeply about for years. And there, I would say, one of the biggest things that has changed the quality of my life over the past five or even 10 years is really understanding this idea that you can choose your beliefs. And, you know, as you eloquently say in the book, you know, whether they're true or not, it's semi irrelevant. It's are they working for you? Before we get into that, one that you said, though, I just want to touch base upon, I'm not a flat-earther, just to be clear here, right? But a lot of the time throughout history, we have absorbed things and thought they

• 9:26Rangan Chatterjee?

  were facts and found out later they were not actually facts. So there would have been a time in history where saying the world is spherical, people would have probably called you crazy, right? So even, even what qualifies as a fact, I think we need to sometimes soften our viewpoint of facts. Of course, some things are objective. I'm not, I'm not disputing that. But I think what happens when you start to update your beliefs is that you take a much softer approach to the world. You're less fixed in your viewpoint. You're more able to update things, even facts. Like, I don't know, as a doctor, in the seventies and eighties, we thought antibiotics were amazing, bacteria were bad.

• 10:10Rangan Chatterjee?

  That was a fact back then. Bacteria are bad, antibiotics kill them. And then we've learned over the years, well, wait a minute, there's a ton of bacteria in our guts, they're actually really good. So that used to be a fact, but actually, it was a belief that we've now updated. Do you see what I'm saying?

• 10:28Speaker 00

  Absolutely. And look, one of the things that I hate hearing is, science says.

• 10:32Rangan Chatterjee?

  Yeah, me too.

• 10:33Speaker 00

  It's, science doesn't say anything. Science gives us evidence that we have to consider, see if it replicates, consider new evidence as it comes in. We're always collecting new evidence, and then determining what we think is a fact. But the thing is, most of the decisions we make in day-to-day life, they're not based on facts, they're based on beliefs. Should I take this job? Should I marry this person? Should I go into business with that person? Should I move here? Should I do this? Most of what we do day-to-day is not, we're not thinking about these factual-based questions all day long. What's really practical, I think, in my life is decoupling the need for my beliefs to have the bar of proof of a fact.

• 11:16Speaker 00

  That most of the decisions I make in my life, I'm making based on these beliefs because they are predictions about the future. All of these day-to-day questions are based on what will happen. And so this isn't based on the laws of physics, not the laws of nature. It's based on a belief. And that belief, where does that live? It lives up here. Yeah. So things like, "It's too late." "I don't have enough time." That's probably the most common limiting belief I hear all the time is, "There's no time." "I'm not ready." "This is hard." Right? These beliefs, so it might be important to talk about why are beliefs even important in the first place? Yeah. Right? Why do we need them? So when we look at, what is the most important factor on whether you will achieve your goals?

• 12:00Speaker 00

  Who achieves their goals and who doesn't? Turns out, it's not intelligence, although that helps. It's not resources, although that helps. The most important determinant of whether you will reach your goals, it's not even information, it's not knowing the right answer. I mean, we're swimming in information. If you don't know the answer to something, Google it, Ask ChatGPT, the answers are there. Read a book about it, the answers are out there. The problem is not that we don't know or that we don't have enough resources or that we don't have the right skills. We can learn these things. The problem is persistence. It's as simple as that. That the number-one factor to determine if you will achieve your goals is whether or not you quit. Of course it is, because when you quit, 100% of the time, you will not reach your goal. Now, it doesn't mean that quitting is always the wrong thing.

• 12:43Speaker 00

  But persistence turns out to be the most important factor. Now, if we know that, let's go a layer deeper. What allows us to persist? Can I tell you a quick study?

• 12:55Rangan Chatterjee?

  Please.

• 12:55Speaker 00

  So this is a classic study that was done in the 1950s by a biologist by the name of Kurt Richter. And Kurt Richter had a very simple question. How long can a wild rat swim?

• 13:06Rangan Chatterjee?

  I love this study. I freaking love this study. So I'm excited you're about to go through it.

• 13:11Speaker 00

  And so I want to demonstrate how we can manipulate persistence, at least in these rat models. And it does carry over to humans as well. So here's what he does. He takes a wild rat. You can't do these kind of experiments anymore, thank goodness. But the rats are already dead, so we can learn from them. Here's what he does. He takes a wild rat. He measures how long this rat can swim in a cylinder of water. Turns out about 15 minutes. A stressed wild rat swims for about 15 minutes before it kind of gives up. Okay, he has that piece of information. Now, he wants to determine, can he increase the rat's persistence? So here's what he does. He gets a new group of wild rats. He puts them in the same cylinders of water. And now, at the 15-minute mark, he reaches in, pulls out the rat, dries it off,

• 13:56Speaker 00

  lets it catch its breath, and then plunk, back into the cylinder it goes. And this time, he wants to measure how long, how much longer the rat will swim for. And he does this a couple of times. And so when I present this study to folks, and I ask them, okay, guess. The rats started at 15 minutes. How much longer, after this intervention, after the rats saw that hope is possible, that salvation might occur, that maybe this hand will reach in and save it, how much longer did the rats swim? So people guess, oh, maybe 100% longer. They went from 15 minutes to 30 minutes, which would be amazing. And then some people will take a wild guess, and they say, maybe 60 minutes. Wouldn't that be amazing? If you could persist four times longer, you could run that race four times longer.

• 14:39Speaker 00

  You could persist on that difficult project you're working on four times longer. That would be amazing, to be four times more persistent. But the rats didn't swim for 60 minutes. The rats swam for 60 hours. 60 hours of non-stop swimming from 15 minutes originally. And they died at 15 minutes. They gave up. That's amazing. And so that's kind of the kicking off point of this research. When I heard that study, I wanted to figure out, well, how do we do that for ourselves? Because what changed? If we think about it, why would that happen? Same rat bodies, nothing changed physically. They didn't suddenly get stronger. They had it in them all along. The circumstances, the environment, as much as we complain about what's happening outside us,

• 15:23Speaker 00

  the circumstances in that experiment had not changed. Same cylinder of water. We can't ask the rats, obviously, but we think the only remaining variable was that something changed in their minds. That suddenly, with salvation being possible, with hope as a possibility, they persisted. They became more motivated to keep swimming for 60 hours until they reached their actual limit. Now, I think what's so fascinating about this study and what we should all remember from it is that that ability to swim for 60 hours was always within them. It wasn't some magically imported power. It was there. They just didn't believe there was a reason to persist. And so that made me think in my own life, where am I quitting at 15 minutes?

• 16:06Speaker 00

  Where am I giving up on things that I could otherwise achieve because I just quit too soon? And so if we know that the number one factor of whether you'll achieve your goals is whether you persist, we need to dive deeper in saying, well, how do I stay motivated? And the way we stay motivated is by not expecting this simplistic model of motivation to work for us. We think, at least the way I thought, was that motivation works when I want some kind of reward. I want some kind of benefit, so I do a behavior, right? If I do the behavior, I get the benefit. Simple as that. That's kind of how classical economics teaches us about incentives. But there's clearly something missing. That if it was easy enough to say, well, I want this benefit, so I'll do this behavior. If that's all it took, well, then we would all have six-pack abs and be multimillionaires

• 16:50Speaker 00

  and be perfectly happy. Because the information's out there. We know what to do and we know we want it. What's missing, of course, is a belief. That if I don't believe I can get that benefit. So, for example, let's say I have a boss who I don't believe has my best interests at heart. Maybe I don't believe they're going to give me that raise or promotion. Am I going to stay motivated to work for that boss if I don't believe I'm going to get the benefit? No, I'm going to slack off. I'm not going to do my best work. Conversely, if I don't believe in my own ability to sustain that behavior, maybe I have a limiting belief that tells me that I'm no good at this, or this is hard, or I don't like how this feels, and so I'm gonna quit if I don't believe in my own ability to persist. So motivation is not a straight line. Motivation is a triangle.

• 17:33Speaker 00

  You have to not only know what to do, the behavior, not only want the benefit, but you also have to have the belief that holds it all together.

• 17:42Rangan Chatterjee?

  How does that apply, let's say, if someone wants to do a marathon? You know, they're a sort of recreational runner, and they sign up for a challenge to do a marathon. How does persistence, motivation, belief, how does that all play out for that individual?

• 18:02Speaker 00

  So this is a perfect way to introduce the difference between limiting beliefs and liberating beliefs. A limiting belief is a belief that does two things. It saps motivation and increases suffering. That's how I define a limiting belief. So in this example, if I want to run a marathon, how well would it serve me if I believed I can't do it? Right? What does my motivation look like? If I'm running, running, running, and in my head is a little voice that says, "You can't do this. You can't do this. You can't do this." I'm gonna quit. My motivation decreases. My perception of suffering increases, and I stop. So I have 100% certainty of not achieving my goal. Now, if I have a different story,

• 18:47Speaker 00

  let's say I have a different belief in my head, that I believe that I can persist. I may be able to do this. Now, does that mean it's a fact? No, lots of people don't finish marathons. But who are you gonna bet on? If you've got two people, one has the belief, "I can't do this." One has the belief, "I might be able to do this, or I'm gonna do it as long as I can." Who's more likely to achieve the goal? Because if there's one thing I want people to know, whether or not you read the book, what I learned over the six years of research. Is this that beliefs are tools, not truths. Beliefs are tools, not truths. There are certain beliefs that serve us and there are certain beliefs that hurt us. Beliefs that increase our motivation and beliefs that decrease our motivation. Beliefs that increase our suffering or decrease our suffering.

• 19:33Speaker 00

  Whether or not they are facts. That's the most important thing. So many of our personal interpersonal geopolitical conflicts are with occur because of this misidentification of what is a fact and what's just a belief. So the the most important takeaway is that you can choose your beliefs.

• 19:51Rangan Chatterjee?

  I'm so excited inside at the moment. I I've got about 10 jumping off points and I can't choose where to go next. Let me just pick up on a phrase you just used. You said, if you're someone who's running a marathon and you don't believe you can do it, your perception of suffering will change. Perception of suffering. There's so much in those three words. It it kind of says.

• 20:22Rangan Chatterjee?

  You know, suffering is subjective, isn't it? Right? It's your perception. It's not like you either suffer or you don't. Your beliefs and your views around the world can influence whether you suffer or not.

• 20:35Speaker 00

  That's exactly right. And so this is again, one of these concepts that blew my mind as I did the research. That pain is not suffering. Those are two separate concepts. Why? Because as I mentioned earlier, the brain doesn't see reality clearly. The brain doesn't feel reality clearly either. That our perception of suffering is also through that tiny pinhole of attention. And so we can change our perception of suffering based on where we are focusing our attention. Let me give you an example that absolutely blew my mind and I would not believe it unless I saw it with my own eyes. Right? So and I I've seen this.

• 21:09Speaker 00

  Daniel Gisler is a guy who is the most analytical person I've ever met. He's a former commodities trader, definitely a numbers person, doesn't believe in anything so-called woo-woo or spiritual. He's a very cut and dry, black and white kind of guy. In his early 50s, he has this freak accident and he shatters his ankle. And in the course of this operation, he has to have pins put into his bones. A few years later, it's time for these pins to be removed. And in the course of that time, he prepares for this surgery by learning a technique called hypnosis sedation. Now, for me, when I heard hypnosis sedation, my scientific mind kind of had alarm bells going off, that I was very, very skeptical.

• 21:50Speaker 00

  Turns out that Daniel was able to go through a 55-minute procedure where scapula was cutting into flesh, where metal screws were wrenched from bone, and he did this 100% consciously. He did this under hypnosis sedation, where he says he felt the sensations. He felt the signal, the data going into his brain about what was going on, but he wasn't suffering from it. And the most remarkable part about this example, and again, I've seen the surgery, I've seen the video, is that it's not that remarkable, that in fact, tens of thousands of people go through similar surgeries in Switzerland, in Italy, in France. It's not that uncommon, this technique of hypnosis sedation.

• 22:31Rangan Chatterjee?

  So they're not using anesthetic?

• 22:33Speaker 00

  Nope. Zero anesthesia, no general anesthesia, no local anesthesia, zero, nothing. There is no anesthesiologist in the room.

• 22:40Rangan Chatterjee?

  I mean, if we think just from a purely medical side effect profile, I mean, not needing to use anesthetic, A, in terms of risks, side effects afterwards, all kinds of things, that is a phenomenal thing to reduce risk before surgery.

• 22:57Speaker 00

  That's exactly right. That recovery time improves for people who don't go into anesthesia. That's exactly right.

• 23:02Rangan Chatterjee?

  But it also does something...

• 23:05Rangan Chatterjee?

  Really, really powerful, which is train that individual with a skill that they previously didn't know about. And as you say, I think in the final few chats of your book, pills don't build skills. Right? So they may do certain things, but there's also certain things that they can't do and won't do. And some of those things that you learn by going through difficult journeys that then help you on other different journeys, you know, beyond the thing that you learnt the skill in.

• 23:38Speaker 00

  That's right. And that's exactly what the rats taught us, isn't it?

• 23:42Rangan Chatterjee?

  Yeah.

• 23:42Speaker 00

  That's that ability to swim for 60 hours was always in them. We also have these amazing powers that have never been unlocked because we've never even conceived that they exist. We can't even imagine that they're there, just like hypnosis. Now, am I arguing for people to go get hypnosis? Not really. I don't think I would do it either. At least I'm not ready to do it. But what this story tells us is that these powers are there. And so if tens of thousands of people have undergone surgery with zero anesthesia, what does that mean about our day to day struggles? What we talked earlier about the number one criteria of whether you will achieve your goals is whether you quit. What's the number one reason people quit? It's hard. This hurts. I don't want to go to the gym. I don't feel like doing this project.

• 24:27Speaker 00

  This is too difficult. Ugh, pain. I don't want to repair this relationship. It feels icky. It's hard. When you realize the truth that pain and suffering are two separate things, that you can disconnect the two, that pain is just signal, just information. It's all it is, just data. Suffering is the interpretation of that data.

• 24:46Rangan Chatterjee?

  Yeah.

• 24:47Speaker 00

  When you realize that, you free your full potential. There are things that you couldn't imagine you are capable of doing, that are in your power, that you thought were impossible. Now, just like Daniel's surgery, going under surgery with zero anesthesia, what sounds impossible becomes reality.

• 25:03Rangan Chatterjee?

  Yeah. Did you hear, Nir, about, I think it's about six weeks ago now, there was a story from Australia where a family, a mum and three kids were out just playing at the beach. They were just going for an afternoon kayak and the wind blew them out. And they were quite far from shore. And I think from recollection, a 10 year old boy.

• 25:28Rangan Chatterjee?

  They decided as a family, the mum was gonna stay with the two younger siblings. I mean, they were gonna die, basically. They were stuck. And so the ten-year-old boy went off to try and get help. But he had to swim, I think, for four hours against current. I think it was two and a half miles, very, very, very difficult to do. I think he started on the kayak and then water came in, so he had to discard the kayak. And he finally did get to shore. He did manage to phone for help and then I think he collapsed. Everyone was safe, right? But I was thinking about that story last night in the context of what you're saying about perseverance. And I think about that through the lens of, you know, both of us are parents.

• 26:12Rangan Chatterjee?

  Surely as a parent, one of the most important things I can give to my children or try and give to my children is this idea that you can overcome things. You can persist. Don't give up at the first hurdle. And I'm guessing that kid must have picked up that idea. Or could you argue, look, this was a life-threatening situation. He knew if he didn't get to shore, he was gonna be dead. And his mum and his two siblings were gonna be dead as well, right? So it has a happy ending, but I kind of feel it speaks to what you said about the rats. It speaks to what you just said about perseverance.

• 26:50Speaker 00

  So there's a complete 180 reversal that's happened recently in the psychology community around a very important theory that relates to this.

• 27:04Rangan Chatterjee?

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• 27:47Rangan Chatterjee?

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• 28:26Rangan Chatterjee?

  All you have to do is head to drinkag1.com/livemore to claim this offer before it ends. Today's episode is sponsored by Lingo by Abbott. When glucose is relatively stable, you feel better day to day with steadier energy, mood and focus. But over time, unstable and elevated glucose can impair your metabolic health and increase the risk of type 2 diabetes and cardiovascular disease. Globally, more than 760 million adults are estimated to have prediabetes, many without symptoms or a diagnosis. Now, the problem is that our healthcare system often waits until you get sick before taking action, when we should take a proactive approach.

• 29:11Rangan Chatterjee?

  Now, most of us don't have access to our own glucose data and therefore don't have clear feedback on how our everyday choices impact our glucose. That's where Lingo by Abbott comes in. Lingo is a biosensor and app that helps you see how food, movement and lifestyle choices affect your glucose in real time, so you can notice patterns and build healthier habits in the moment. With Lingo, you can get to know your glucose to build healthier habits for today and tomorrow. For listeners in the US and UK, Lingo by Abbott is offering an exclusive 10% off a four-week plan. Just visit hellolingo.com/livemore for more information.

• 29:56Rangan Chatterjee?

  Terms and conditions apply. Again, that's hellolingo.com/livemore.

• 30:09Speaker 00

  We used to believe, it used to be gospel in the psychology community, this concept of what's called learned helplessness. The researchers Seligman and Meyer. Learned helplessness was accepted everywhere. It was even in mainstream press. We all agreed that we learn to be helpless, that we're kind of born hopeful and then we learn over time as we're beaten down by society, that we learn to give up. And a few years ago, Seligman and Meyer, the people who coined learned helplessness, realized that they had gotten it not only wrong, but 180 degrees backwards. The exact opposite of what they thought when they looked at the data. That in fact, we do not learn helplessness.

• 30:51Speaker 00

  Helplessness is our default state. That when you think about it, a baby is born completely helpless. And what we have to learn as we grow up is we learn hope. We don't learn helplessness, we learn hope. So I'm guessing that somewhere in this boy's background was this sense of agency. The sense that they can do something about this problem. And that's how they actually discovered in the Seligman and Meyer study where they got it wrong. Because some of the subjects in the experiment never learned helplessness, ever. They always stayed persistent. And it tends to be because there's something in your background that told you that persistence pays.

• 31:29Rangan Chatterjee?

  One of the downsides, or potential downsides of having that empowering, I can do belief mindset. If we go back to the marathon example as a way of looking at this. Of course, you want to go into a marathon with an I can do attitude. But of course, anything taken to an extreme can be problematic, right? Let's say your right hammy starts hurting at mile five. And you have this stubborn I can do. Let's take to, assume the David Goggins mentality, for example.

• 32:05Speaker 00

  David Goggins is a human embodiment of one of those rats in the study, right?

• 32:08Rangan Chatterjee?

  Exactly. He won't stop. He will just persevere. But you can injure yourself as well through that perseverance. So of course, the 10-year-old boy trying to save his life and his family's life, he doesn't care if he gets injured, right? Because it's like... This is life threatening.

• 32:25Speaker 00

  Right.

• 32:26Rangan Chatterjee?

  But if you're running a recreational marathon and we see so many marathon runners doing this, they push past pain, they have their identity built up around completing this marathon. And I know there's some chat to running coaches, there are quite a lot of people who wreck themselves for good because they have that mentality, I'm going to complete this marathon no matter what.

• 32:49Speaker 00

  So. Right.

• 32:50Rangan Chatterjee?

  I know that's not what you're saying in the book, but can you help us understand how that could go too far perhaps?

• 32:56Speaker 00

  Sure. So let's put it in perspective, first of all, that the people who do that, not only are they the tiny minority of people who run marathons, they are the infinitesimal number of people in the entire population. What happens with those examples is that the rest of us think, well, I better not run a marathon.

• 33:10Rangan Chatterjee?

  Yeah, that's a good point.

• 33:12Speaker 00

  Right. And so what we talked about earlier about how we don't learn helplessness, we have to learn hope, that we are, our default state is helplessness. Why do we have this? Why do we even have limiting beliefs? What's the point? Why does the brain limit us? Well, the brain is trying to protect us. Any of our limiting beliefs, this is hard, I'm not ready, I'm not good at this, this relationship will never change, she's always like that, all these limiting beliefs that we keep repeating to ourselves, why do we do this? It's because fundamentally, the brain is trying to keep you as far away as possible from your actual limitations. Because evolutionarily, the brain doesn't care about your flourishing. Evolution does not care if you're happy and flourishing. That's not evolutionarily useful. What's useful is that you're alive.

• 33:54Speaker 00

  So good things are nice, bad things will kill you. So your brain is trying to keep you really far away, right? Remember those rats with the 60 hours? That's when they, that's when they actually were exhausted. But their brains were telling them at 15 minutes, give up, right? Because it was trying to protect them, ironically enough, they actually died because they gave up too soon. For most of us, most of our lives.

• 34:16Speaker 00

  That's what the brain is trying to do is to keep us as far away from potential harm. Now, there are some circumstances where we definitely should quit. But we quit far too soon, that's good for us. So how do we know? When do we quit? I think there's three criteria. Yeah. The three criteria are, number one, have you met your mile marker? Okay, this can be figurative or literal. But let's say if it's, you know, trying on a new belief, trying on a liberating belief. And we could talk about how do you find your liberating beliefs and limiting beliefs? But once you have a new liberating belief to try on, or a new practice. Let's say I'm gonna try and exercise for 30 days, or I'm gonna try posting on YouTube, or TikTok, or I'm gonna try this new business venture, or try reading this book instead of watching TV, or whatever the case might be.

• 34:59Speaker 00

  This hard thing that I'm going to try, you need to have a set number of days that you're going to try it. It doesn't necessarily matter how many days. There's a bunch of mythology of like, oh, a habit takes 44 days. That's not true. It's just setting a mile marker. Why is that so important? That when you say to yourself, I'm not gonna quit until I do this for X number of days, you're inoculating yourself from quitting as soon as it gets hard. So what you don't want is, oh, this is painful, this isn't even worth it, let me stop. You're gonna say, no, I'm gonna go for the next mile, and then I'm gonna reassess. So whether it's a week, a month, a year, whatever it is, get to that mile marker before you quit, whatever it is that you said in advance. The second criteria is, am I still learning? Yeah.

• 35:42Speaker 00

  So if you're failing, failure does not mean you should quit. Failure does not mean you should quit. If you are learning from failure, persist. Let me give you an example. If I looked into the future, and I said, look, I have traveled into the future, and I know for a fact that if you fail five more times, the sixth time you're gonna succeed. You're looking for love. If you go on five more dates, the sixth one, you're gonna find the love of your life. If you're making those sales calls for your business, you're gonna get no's five times, the sixth time, you're gonna get a yes, you're gonna close that big deal. What does then that do to your ability to want to fail? You're gonna say, "Yeah, great, let's fail faster, that's great." So if you are failing but learning, persist, keep going.

• 36:25Speaker 00

  And then the third criteria is, does persistence make a difference? There are many goals where persistence doesn't make a difference. You have a goal to be happy at work, but your workplace culture is awful. It's full of toxic people. You are not going to outlast those people at work. And so persistence may not make a difference. Whereas with writing a book, it feels like you're just slogging away at the research, and I don't know how this is gonna come together, and how do I make this point? And is this really saying what I think it says? But if you persist and keep going and keep going, you're gonna get through that plateau. Certainly with exercise, right? When I used to be clinically obese, and for years sometimes, I wouldn't be making any progress at all on my weight loss goals. But if you persist long enough, you'll break past that plateau.

• 37:10Speaker 00

  But some things, persistence doesn't matter. You're just banging your head against the wall. So if you meet those three criteria, you met your mile marker, you're not learning anymore, and persistence doesn't make a difference, then yeah, go ahead and quit. But short of that, you're probably quitting way too soon.

• 37:24Rangan Chatterjee?

  Yeah, so it's a beautiful framework that I feel we can all apply to anything we're trying to bring into our life. This might be a good time to speak about your weight loss journey. I think, because it sort of relates, I think, to what we're talking about. Looking at you today, it's very, very hard to believe that at some point in your life, you were clinically obese.

• 37:46Speaker 00

  I'll show you the photos.

• 37:48Rangan Chatterjee?

  Can you walk us through that journey? And why it was belief that changed your outcome?

• 37:59Speaker 00

  Yeah, so for many years, I was obese starting at a young age. And for many years, I was a kid at the community pool. I grew up in central Florida, and so we always hung out around the pool in our condominium complex. And I was always the kid who wore that baggy t-shirt and who never went to the pool without my shirt on, because I didn't want anybody to see my belly rolls. And I started dieting pretty early in life as a teenager. Trying to get into shape and it didn't work. And every time I would try a new diet, you know, I started out with low fat. And then I became a vegetarian and then I started keto and then it was intermittent fasting. And every time I had this zeal of being a new convert. And I want to tell everybody about this new diet that I had started and why it was so great.

• 38:43Speaker 00

  And then inevitably, something would happen and it wouldn't work anymore. And why wouldn't it work? Because I started hearing doubts. I would start hearing, oh, you know, a low fat diet is not so good for you. And vegetarians don't get enough nutrients and keto diets are bad for your liver. I would start hearing these doubts creep in. And then when I stopped believing in my diet, I stopped losing weight. Yeah. Because I would fall off the train and say, you know, diets don't work anymore. And, you know, the food industrial complex is out to get me. And it's really hard for a big person to stay in shape. So diets don't work. Bring on that pizza and let me chase it with some french fries. And what I learned was it wasn't actually a specific diet.

• 39:25Speaker 00

  I mean, we're still debating what is the fact around what diet works? Is there one perfect diet for everyone? No, clearly. Exactly. But what does work over time and the way I lost weight was persistence. Was getting rid of my limiting beliefs that I couldn't, that this is not something that I could ever do. That I was never going to change or that it was too hard. Those were all limiting beliefs because they decreased my motivation and increased my suffering. Instead, I started a new liberating belief that through persistence, over the long term, I could lose weight. And that's what I started to do. That I used to all the time succumb to what we call in psychology, the what the hell effect. Right? I'd fall off the diet. I'd have a piece of pizza or something and say, ah, what the hell?

• 40:09Speaker 00

  Come on, bring on the chicken wings as well and all the other junk food. And I don't say that anymore. Now I have a new liberating belief that says I can decide the next thing I put in my mouth. Right? That I can get back on track over the long term. This will work. And I think another thing that really helped me. Was I completely misinterpreted positive thinking? That there's a lot of research out there that shows that most of us are being hurt by thinking positive and even manifesting and vision boarding. We're getting it completely wrong. That in fact, it's actively harmful. And here's why. This is the work of Gabrielle Ottingen, where she connected people to blood pressure

• 40:52Speaker 00

  monitors as they were doing a visioning exercise, right? They were manifesting the future they wanted. They were picturing their beach body. They were picturing the love of their life. They were picturing a huge mansion and a Lamborghini out in the driveway. All the things that you're supposed to manifest, you know, in your life. And she found that when they did that, their blood pressure dropped, they became more relaxed, and most importantly, they became less likely to go out there and do the things that would get them their end results. She did this study on students who were envisioning getting an A on their exam. And those very same students who were manifesting an A on the exam, studied less than the students who didn't do the visioning exercise. But people say, "Yeah, but visioning works, right? Athletes, they vision things.

• 41:36Speaker 00

  Isn't that what athletes do?" Yes, but what do athletes vision? Athletes don't do a visioning exercise where they get the trophy or the medal. They envision the obstacles in their way, and specifically, how they will react physically and psychologically to those barriers. That's what's missing. So this is called mental contrasting. You're contrasting the outcomes you want with how you will feel about the obstacles in your way. So one of the things that helped me most in my weight loss journey was not, "Oh, I'm gonna sit here and envision that I have a beach body." That wasn't helpful. That actually backfired, because what happened? When it wouldn't work, well, then, am I not envisioning hard enough? Am I messed up? Am I broken? And so I would start ruminating on how I couldn't do it because there was something

• 42:21Speaker 00

  wrong with me. When really, what I should have done, and what I eventually did start doing... Was visioning what I will do when I encounter the obstacle.

• 42:30Rangan Chatterjee?

  Yeah.

• 42:31Speaker 00

  And how do I present, how do I make sure that I'm strong enough to overcome that obstacle? So here's what I did. I started envisioning when I go to that party and someone offers me that piece of chocolate cake that I don't want to eat because I have this goal in mind. And that feels uncomfortable. One, I want the chocolate cake. I desire it, I crave it. And I don't want to tell someone, I don't want to be rude and say, no, thanks. I don't want the chocolate cake. How, what will I do? What will I say when that obstacle happens, which it inevitably will? And so that's the right way to do these visioning exercises is to prepare for the pain.

• 43:06Rangan Chatterjee?

  That is such a great piece of practical advice, isn't it? Instead of, you know, we're not at New Year at the moment, right? But in New Year, you know, people get carried away. It's, ah, this year I'm going to do this, right? And you just imagine the good. It's going to go well. I'm going to go to the gym three times a week. You don't imagine, or I would say, most people in my experience don't imagine, what happens when you feel tired after work and it's raining and you can't be bothered.

• 43:34Speaker 00

  Yeah. How, what tools will you use? So I'll give you an example in my own life. When I started writing, I also started my speaking career. And one thing you don't want as a professional public speaker is stage fright. And I used to get terrible stage fright that every time I was about to go on stage, I'd get the heart palpitations, I'd get the sweaty armpits, I'd get the cotton mouth. And I would interpret those physiological symptoms, that information, as suffering. And I would start this rumination loop of, you know, if I get on stage and I mess up, it's going to be terrible, people are going to make fun of me, my career will be over. And if I was a real professional public speaker, I wouldn't have these feelings. And so maybe I'm not into this. And, and, and I would, I would limit myself.

• 44:17Speaker 00

  A speaking engagement would come in and I would say, no, no, no, I'm not ready for that. That's, that crowd is too big for me. I'm not ready for this. And so I limited myself. Now, here's what's interesting. I'll admit to you right now, I feel the same physiological symptoms. I have the dry mouth and that's why I keep sipping water. And my heart's beating a million miles a minute because I know that thousands of people are going to watch this, this podcast, hundreds of thousands of people. And so I still feel anxiety. I feel the symptoms of anxiety. But I interpret it differently because I've prepared myself psychologically to separate the pain from the suffering. The pain is just signal. It's just information. That tiny keyhole of attention that we talked about earlier, the signal's still coming in, right? The signal is still there, the data's there, but my interpretation is completely different.

• 45:02Speaker 00

  So now, when I have a big presentation, I still feel those symptoms, but I tell myself a completely different belief. The belief now is not that I'm not ready and this is too hard and this is not going to go well. Instead, I tell myself, my heart is beating quickly so that my heart can pump more blood to my brain, so my brain has more oxygen, so I can deliver my best possible presentation about something I really care about. Now, you're a doctor. Is that true? Don't tell me, actually, don't tell me. I don't know if it's true. I don't care if it's true because beliefs are tools, not truths.

• 45:35Rangan Chatterjee?

  Yeah. This is, I love this as a topic. I mean, the first thing I want to say there is, pain is not suffering, can also be applied to your chocolate cake example, right? So you're trying to lose weight, you're trying to, in inverted commas, eat healthily, whatever that means to that individual, and for you, you know that you're going to get tempted by chocolate cake if you go out for dinner. So even if you have mentally contrasted and you'd prepared what you were going to say, how you were going to be polite and decline, you may also succumb and go, you know what? Screw it. I really want it, you know?

• 46:17Rangan Chatterjee?

  I want that cake, it looks to be, if I'm going to have it. Now, it's not strictly pain that, but it's not, I guess.

• 46:23Speaker 00

  Oh, I think it is. I think it is.

• 46:25Rangan Chatterjee?

  But it's not suffering. The suffering comes if you then beat yourself up, go, oh, stupid me, but I can never follow any plan.

• 46:32Speaker 00

  Or even before that. So when you're in the restaurant and you want it, so my interpretation now, it used to be, I want it, I have to have it. Now, I feel hunger. So?

• 46:47Speaker 00

  What's gonna happen? Am I gonna die? I'm feeling sad. So? I'm feeling lonely. I'm feeling bored. I'm feeling tired. I'm feeling fatigued. So? It's just information. Light's entering my retinas right now. Uh, sound is entering my ears. Uh, the ambient temperature of the room. All this is information.

• 47:05Rangan Chatterjee?

  Yeah.

• 47:06Speaker 00

  It doesn't mean I have to do anything about it. Just because you feel discomfort doesn't mean you have to act on it. It's just information.

• 47:13Rangan Chatterjee?

  I, I am so tempted to go down a deep rabbit hole on your previous book, Instructible, here because it really speaks as I know what, you know, it's pain avoidance, isn't it? That is driving most of our behaviors, but I'm not going to because there's plenty more to cover beyond belief, right? But, but, but I think it is totally related to what you just spoke about.

• 47:31Speaker 00

  Very much so.

• 47:32Rangan Chatterjee?

  I really wanna talk about this idea about choosing beliefs, right? Cause I think there's something very empowering about that. And in chapter nine, which is the chapter on prayer, which we're gonna get to, but all I wanted to, to touch on just now is this idea that you used to pray when you were six.

• 47:52Speaker 00

  Mm hmm.

• 47:53Rangan Chatterjee?

  You know, you, there was conflicts in the house over money. You'd go on the concrete and you would speak to God, right? Those early morning conversations became your sanctuary, but somewhere along the path to adulthood, the connection faded. And this is the key point for me. As I developed a more rational, evidence-based worldview, prayer began to feel strange. And basically this was part of your journey to stop doing it. And, and I think this really speaks back to what you said before about facts, beliefs.

• 48:30Speaker 00

  And faith.

• 48:30Rangan Chatterjee?

  And, and faith, right? It's, you know, how much evidence do you really need for your beliefs, right? It's not like you're publishing a science of it research paper. It's like beliefs, as you say, they do not require certainty.

• 48:44Speaker 00

  They're tools.

• 48:44Rangan Chatterjee?

  They're tools, not truths. They're mental models that you write, built through experience, evidence and deliberate construction. And I wanted to ask you about, well, I mean, there's two big beliefs I've changed in my life over the past years that I have chosen to take on because they make my life better. First one is, if I was that other person, I'd be acting in exactly the same way as they are.

• 49:12Speaker 00

  Love it. Love it.

• 49:13Rangan Chatterjee?

  And for people who've not heard me say that before, all I'm saying is, if I was that other individual and I grew up where they grew up, I had their childhood, I had their parents, I had their bullying experiences, I'd had their media inputs, I would see the world in exactly the same way as they do, and I would act in that way.

• 49:34Speaker 00

  Right.

• 49:35Rangan Chatterjee?

  Now, someone often will say, well, you know, if I was that, I wouldn't be doing that. And I'm like, okay, sure, you can believe that, no problem. Is that belief serving you? I tell you, that belief doesn't serve me.

• 49:45Speaker 00

  Right.

• 49:45Rangan Chatterjee?

  But this one serves me because it helps me interact with the world with compassion and curiosity.

• 49:51Speaker 00

  It's the perfect definition, calculation of what eliminating versus liberating belief is. It increases your motivation to interact with that person.

• 49:58Rangan Chatterjee?

  Yeah.

• 49:59Speaker 00

  When you believe, hey, and this is similar to a mantra I have, which is we're all operating with the tools we have, very, very similar.

• 50:03Rangan Chatterjee?

  Exactly.

• 50:04Speaker 00

  So it increases my motivation to want to understand that person, and boy, does it decrease my suffering.

• 50:09Rangan Chatterjee?

  Exactly.

• 50:09Speaker 00

  And that's the goal of these liberating beliefs. It's not necessarily to prove a fact, it's to decrease your suffering and increase your motivation.

• 50:15Rangan Chatterjee?

  Yeah, and it's like you say, it's a mental model built through experience, evidence, and deliberate construction. You can try it on.

• 50:21Speaker 00

  That's right.

• 50:22Rangan Chatterjee?

  Pop it on for a month, say, do I like how I am with this belief, or do I prefer the one where I can judge everyone?

• 50:30Speaker 00

  That's right.

• 50:31Rangan Chatterjee?

  And go, I wouldn't be like them, and I can't believe they think this way. The other one that I've chosen to adopt, there's many more, but the two that come to mind are, life is not happening to me, it's happening for me.

• 50:42Speaker 00

  Love that one. Love it.

• 50:44Rangan Chatterjee?

  Again, it just helps me. It's like whenever, you know, it's this idea that every experience, really, or most experiences are really neutral. It's the story we put onto them that determines the outcome they have on our life. And so if I look at life as happening for me, not to me, it's like, oh, how now is this adverse experience helping me? There is a reason for that. What am I going to learn here?

• 51:11Speaker 00

  Is it fact? No, it may not have any purpose to it. But the fact that you have used that belief to decrease your suffering and increase your motivation to persist, it did its job. That's beautiful.

• 51:25Rangan Chatterjee?

  Are there any beliefs you have chosen to adopt in your life through the writing of this book?

• 51:30Speaker 00

  Oh, my goodness. Where do we start? I mean, I'll tell you, I think the biggest impact of going deep into the psychology of beliefs has been in my relationships. And so can I share this?

• 51:42Rangan Chatterjee?

  Please.

• 51:43Speaker 00

  So it's a difficult story to tell every time I tell, even though I've told it a few times now. It's hard to still tell because it's, well, I'll just tell it. So a few years ago, my mom had her 74th birthday and I wanted to do something nice for her. So I wanted to send her some flowers. The problem was I was in Singapore and she was in central Florida where I grew up. And I stayed up very late at night to try and call the right florist and make sure that they would deliver on time and that she'd get the flowers she wanted and all this rigmarole and spend a bunch of money. I went to bed at one in the morning, I patted myself on the back and thought, Nir, you're a good son. She's going to love the flowers. She's going to call you tomorrow and tell you about how great of a son you are. That didn't happen. What happened instead was that I called her the next morning. I said, hey, Mom, happy birthday.

• 52:27Speaker 00

  Did you get the flowers I sent? And she said, yes, I did. But just so you know, thank you for the flowers, but they arrived half dead. And so don't order from that florist again. To which I responded something like, well, that's the last time I buy you flowers. And that went over about as well as you expect, not so good. My wife was on that call with my mom as well. And she turned to me afterwards and she said, would you like to do a turnaround on this?

• 52:53Rangan Chatterjee?

  What's a turnaround?

• 52:54Speaker 00

  Well, my response was.

• 53:03Rangan Chatterjee?

  Today's episode is sponsored by the daily health drink AG1. The clocks are about to change, the mornings are darker, everyone around you seems to be coming down with something and suddenly that well being you felt in the summer seems a long time ago. I certainly know that feeling and that's why at this time of year, I remind myself to lean. Into the fundamentals and one of those fundamentals is AG1. AG1 is a daily health drink that has been in my own life for over eight years. And one of the many things I like about it is the fact that many of the nutrients it contains, for example, vitamin C, vitamin A, zinc and selenium, supports a healthy immune system. Some of the other things I really like about AG1 is that they are committed to continuous

• 53:46Rangan Chatterjee?

  improvement and updating their formula as a scientific research involves. And each batch is independently tested for quality and safety markers, including heavy metals, allergens and banned substances. This is how they can guarantee what's in your scoop and what's not. Right now, AG1 is offering a free AG1 flavour sampler and AGZ sampler to try all the flavours, plus free vitamin D3 and K2 and AG1 welcome kit with your first AG1 subscription order. That's $87 in free gifts for first time subscribers. All you have to do is head to drinkag1.com/livemore to claim this offer before it ends.

• 54:32Rangan Chatterjee?

  Today's episode is sponsored by Lingo by Abbott. When glucose is relatively stable, you feel better day to day with steadier energy, mood and focus. But over time, unstable and elevated glucose can impair your metabolic health and increase the risk of type 2 diabetes and cardiovascular disease. Globally, more than 760 million adults are estimated to have prediabetes, many without symptoms or a diagnosis. Now, the problem is that our healthcare system often waits until you get sick before taking action, when we should take a proactive approach. Now, most of us don't have access to our own glucose data and therefore don't have

• 55:15Rangan Chatterjee?

  clear feedback on how our everyday choices impact our glucose. That's where Lingo by Abbott comes in. Lingo is a biosensor and app that helps you see how food, movement and lifestyle choices affect your glucose in real time. So you can know. ... patterns and build healthier habits in the moment. With Lingo, you can get to know your glucose to build healthier habits for today and tomorrow. For listeners in the US and UK, Lingo by Abbott is offering an exclusive 10% off a four-week plan. Just visit hellolingo.com/livemore for more information. Terms and conditions apply. Again, that's hellolingo.com/livemore.

• 56:08Speaker 00

  My response was, no, I don't want to do a turnaround to this. I don't need your mumbo jumbo, touchy feely hocus pocus. I need to vent. We are told that when someone offends you, you have to tell them how you feel. You can't keep it bottled inside. You can't hold back your feelings. You have to tell people how you feel. So I needed to tell my wife why my mom was being way too judgmental and why I was right and she was wrong. But thankfully, at that point, I knew enough about what the psychology literature says about venting, that venting does nothing but reinforce this effigy that we've built about people, that just as we don't see reality clearly, we don't see others as they are. We see our beliefs about people. We don't see them as they are, and especially the people we know best.

• 56:50Speaker 00

  I don't know if you, I have this experience where I have many friends who are the nicest people to me, and yet, when they introduce me to their family and I'm around their kids and their spouse for a few minutes, they treat them horribly. They're not nice to the people closest to them in their lives. I think many of us, we treat the people who we love most the worst because we know them. We've seen them. She always does that. That's so like her. There she goes again, right? We have these beliefs that color literally how we see other people. And it can work both ways, positive and negative. I remember the first time I saw my wife across the room, I thought she was okay. She was good looking. Now I think she's gorgeous. After 25 years of marriage, she's the most beautiful person in the world. Like physically, I see her differently than I ever did before.

• 57:32Speaker 00

  But this can also work in reverse, where we look for a person's tendency of there, she's doing that thing again, and there she, you know, so we're building our perception of them. So here's what happened. So instead of me venting, I didn't vent. I sat down and I did a turnaround. Here's how a turnaround works. This comes, this is called inquiry-based stress reduction. It's a technique that was pioneered by Byron Katie. I'm sure many of your listeners will know her. But she actually was channeling a technique that's over 2,000 years old. Aristotle did something very similar, but she kind of really perfected it. Here's how it works. I took that belief. My mother is too judgmental and hard to please. And I wrote it down. And then Katie asks us to ask four questions of ourselves. The first question is, is that belief true?

• 58:15Speaker 00

  My mother is too judgmental and hard to please. Obviously, what a stupid question. What was Katie thinking, right? Obviously, my mother is being too judgmental and hard to please. That's a dumb question. Let's skip that one. The second question. Is it absolutely true? Is it absolutely true that my mother was being too judgmental and hard to please? Absolutely means 100% of the time. No exceptions. There's no other possible explanation. It's not a, it's not a law of nature that my mother is being too judgmental and hard to please. It's, okay, maybe. I don't know what the other explanation might be, but maybe there's an alternative explanation. Okay, now the third question. Who am I when I hold on to this belief? How do I feel? Who do I become when I hold on to this belief?

• 58:59Speaker 00

  Well, I'm not very nice. I'm kind of impatient. I become this 13-year-old version of myself that I don't really like. All right, fourth question. Who would I be without this belief? If I had this magic wand and poof, I could tap my head and the belief would disappear. Who would I be? How would I feel? I felt noticeably lighter, just the thought of getting rid of that belief. I felt more at peace. I'd be more patient. I'd be more myself, which sounded great. So in just four questions, in about a minute, two minutes, I determined, one, this thing I was sure was a fact. And I, you know, this is a, this is a pretty mundane example that I think a lot of people can relate with. But I've seen people who have, who are struggling with trauma, who are struggling with all kinds of things in their life.

• 59:42Speaker 00

  And just with these four questions, they realized, number one, I'm not 100% sure it's a fact. It couldn't just be a belief. Number two, that not having that belief might actually serve me. And number three, that holding on to the belief wasn't making me better. It was, it was a drag. It was causing suffering in my life, this belief. So now it's time for the turnaround. Turnaround asks you to do something that your brain hates. And everybody, I've never met someone who doesn't have some friction here. And so if you try this, anticipate it. Just we talked about how you have to plan ahead for that discomfort. Plan for the pain. Plan for the pain because your brain hates changing its mind. Let me say that again. Your brain hates changing its mind.

• 1:00:26Speaker 00

  Remember, the reason we have limiting beliefs is because they served us in the past. They protected us. So your brain wants to do everything it possibly can to keep you passive, to keep you docile, to keep you from moving outside your comfort zone, because that's what kept you safe in the past. So your brain hates changing its mind. So the idea of a turnaround is you're not changing your mind. You're just collecting what I call a portfolio of perspectives. That's it. Just like Pokemon cards or baseball cards, you're just collecting different beliefs. That's it. That's all the exercise asks you to do. And you do that by asking yourself, could the exact opposite of what I am sure is a belief is a truth, right? Could the exact opposite also be true? So let's try it. My mother is too judgmental and hard to please. I have one belief.

• 1:01:10Speaker 00

  Let's see if I can get a second. What's the opposite of my mother is too judgmental and hard to please? My mother is not too judgmental and hard to please. I thought for a minute, could that be true? Well, she did thank me for the flowers. She was just saying a statement of fact, right? That's how the flowers looked to her. Okay. Maybe she was trying to be helpful and not hurtful. Maybe she was just trying to make sure I didn't get scammed by this florist. Okay, now I have two beliefs. Let's do a third belief. My mother is too judgmental and hard to please. The opposite of that, I am too judgmental and hard to please. Could that be true? Well, to be honest, I had rehearsed in my mind that I deserved effusive praise for what

• 1:01:55Speaker 00

  I'd done, and when that didn't appear, I lost it. So who was being judgmental? I was. Okay, now we have three beliefs. Let's try for our fourth. I am too judgmental and hard to please towards myself. That's also a turnaround. That one was the hardest to accept, but turned out to be the most true. That after I had spent all this time and money doing something and it didn't work out, I felt like I was incompetent, like I had messed up, like it was my fault. And this is what we call a misattribution of emotion. When we feel bad inside, we look for the first person that we can take it out on. And that's exactly what I did. But really, I was feeling bad about something that I was judging myself for.

• 1:02:36Speaker 00

  So now, which one of those four beliefs is true? Which is false? All of them? None of them? Who cares? Beliefs are tools, not truths. So what I could do with that is realize that that first belief, "My mother is too judgmental and hard to please", only one way out. She had to change, so I could stop suffering. If you hold your breath waiting for people to change, you're gonna suffocate.

• 1:02:57Rangan Chatterjee?

  People lock themselves into mental prisons on this stuff.

• 1:03:00Speaker 00

  That's right.

• 1:03:01Rangan Chatterjee?

  Of their own making, all the time.

• 1:03:03Speaker 00

  And even if she was wrong, why am I the dummy waiting for her to change? So I can prove to her for a fact she was being too judgmental.

• 1:03:09Rangan Chatterjee?

  So what?

• 1:03:10Speaker 00

  So what?

• 1:03:11Rangan Chatterjee?

  Wouldn't help anything, anyway.

• 1:03:12Speaker 00

  Exactly. With these other three beliefs, wow, I could free myself from that suffering. Now it was something I could do. She wasn't even in the room anymore, and yet she was causing me suffering. With these other three beliefs, I could have a different perspective. And what did that do? Most importantly, these new liberating beliefs, what did that do to my motivation level? To have a relationship with my mom? I became more motivated to have a relationship with her. I reduced my suffering day to day. So that's what this line of research has done more than anything for me. It doesn't, you know, make you have this superpower. It reduces your suffering and increases your motivation to persist long enough to get the things that you really want in your life.

• 1:03:52Rangan Chatterjee?

  I think it's such a great example because it speaks to closed relationships. And as you've already pointed out, sometimes it's the people closest to us who don't see the best of us. And, I mean, that that chapter in the book in which you talk about that story, the subtitle to that chapter heading, from Recollection, is, "You don't have a relationship problem, you have a perception problem", which, again, I think is brilliant because it speaks to what we said right at the start, which is, most of us are not seeing reality. We're seeing a version of the world created by our beliefs. You created that version because you had this expectation, and I guess you could call it a belief,

• 1:04:36Rangan Chatterjee?

  about what your mother should do when you stay up till 1 a.m. and do something for her.

• 1:04:42Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:04:42Rangan Chatterjee?

  And it's such a beautiful exercise to turn things around very quickly, at least to just soften your belief, belief again, that that was a fact.

• 1:04:52Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:04:54Rangan Chatterjee?

  It's kind of interesting to me because the first time I heard you tell that story on a podcast recently.

• 1:05:03Rangan Chatterjee?

  The first thing that went in my head before you got into how you turned around, when you just said what your mum had said to you, which is, hey, no, thanks so much. And then, by the way, the flowers came half dead, so don't use that florist again. I thought it just sounds like a really helpful thing to me, right? I'm like, oh, she said thanks, so she appreciated it. And then she may be trying to stop her beloved son wasting his money. And next time, she's a different florist, right? Can I ask, what's the nationality of your mum? Oh, Israeli. Israeli, okay. The only reason I ask is because something, I put this out on Instagram once before, I think, and it was so controversial.

• 1:05:46Rangan Chatterjee?

  And so my mum was born and brought up in India. And she came to the UK in, I think, 1972. And, you know, I don't want to generalize, but Indian mums can be quite direct. Okay? And this really does speak to this, to the kind of underlying thesis in your book, I think, about beliefs and we're not seeing reality, right? We're creating reality through our beliefs. So I remember so clearly coming back from university, I don't know, first year or second year. You know, I'd gone away, I was eating too much, I was drinking too much, you know?

• 1:06:29Rangan Chatterjee?

  I was first time away from home. And I think at one point mum said in some version of, you're fat, what are you doing? Yeah. Now, depending on your life experience, you will interpret that potentially differently from how I interpreted it. Right. I never minded, right? Because I've grown up with mum and I like the fact that she's direct. And she was right. And actually, her saying that to me helped me realize, you know what, mum's right, actually. I should probably, she didn't tell me what to do, I just thought. Yeah, I probably let myself go a little bit. I can be a bit more careful or whatever it might be.

• 1:07:14Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:07:14Rangan Chatterjee?

  Now, when I put that out on Instagram, oh my god, for some people, they're like, that's abusive. And I was wondering, because obviously I don't particularly want negative comments about my mum, right? But it speaks to this idea that people are locked in to their beliefs about the world, right? Sure, I accept that can also be done in a very controlling way. And maybe people making those comments, those negative comments, maybe they've had those direct comments used against them in a negative way, and I get that. I totally get that. But again, mum's saying that to me, I could interpret that as, you know what, mum loves me and she's telling me how it is. Or I can choose to take offence, right? And go, I can't believe she said that to me.

• 1:08:00Rangan Chatterjee?

  And again, there's a cultural component to that as well, right? Because I suspect for an English family, for a native British family, politeness is a big value here in the UK.

• 1:08:10Speaker 00

  That's right.

• 1:08:11Rangan Chatterjee?

  That's probably not what, you know, do you know what I mean? There's a cultural difference and I understand that, having lived with my mum since I was born.

• 1:08:19Speaker 00

  So our beliefs are definitely shaped from our priors, whether it's our culture, whether it's our upbringing, for sure. That's where they come from. All our beliefs come from these priors. They also tend to spark what we are most, what we value most, right? So it could be that for you, being a little overweight wasn't that big of a deal. It's not something, it wasn't one of your insecurities. Whereas for me, if somebody were to tell me I was fat, I would think about that for months. Like, that would really hurt me.

• 1:08:46Rangan Chatterjee?

  I wasn't even overweight. I probably just had some slightly chubby cheeks.

• 1:08:48Speaker 00

  Because it wasn't something you struggled with before.

• 1:08:50Rangan Chatterjee?

  Exactly.

• 1:08:50Speaker 00

  But for me, I think what's important to realise here is that you don't see things and people as they are, you see them as you are.

• 1:08:58Rangan Chatterjee?

  Exactly.

• 1:08:58Speaker 00

  It's because I had this insecurity that any little thing would trigger me. And so what I've adopted since, that's really helpful to me. And this is again, one of those mantras that I say to myself constantly to remind myself of a liberating belief that I've chosen to adopt. Not a fact, it's a belief, it's a tool, not a truth. And I constantly repeat to myself, love is measured by the benefit of the doubt. What does that mean? Love is measured by the benefit of the doubt. That when we say, I love you so much, or we say, you know, I love my parents, or I love my siblings, or I love my fellow man, what does that mean? How much? How do I measure love? To me, love is measured by the benefit of the doubt. When my daughter was first born, and I remember I held her.

• 1:09:43Speaker 00

  It gives me goosebumps now because she's 17. But I remember the day I held her, she was exactly this big. And the doctor let me take the baby downstairs. And I got to give her her first bath after she was born. And I remember feeling, I love this person. This little baby more than anything in the world. And I would give her every benefit of the doubt. Now, why did I love her so much? Was it because she did nice things for me? No, she wasn't sending me flowers like I did for my mom. Why did I love her so much? It's because I gave her complete benefit of the doubt. When she cried, did I say, oh, you're crying because you want to annoy me? No, it's the only tool she had at her disposal. All she could do was cry when she needed something.

• 1:10:27Speaker 00

  Well, guess what? We're all big babies.

• 1:10:30Rangan Chatterjee?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:30Speaker 00

  We just grow up, that's all. We just get bigger. And yet, so for me, when I remind myself, just like I gave my daughter when she was born, all the benefit of the doubt because I loved her so much. You measure love by the benefit of the doubt. How could I expect my mom to behave any differently? That's the tool she has. The suffering came because I expected reality to be differently. It's like asking my mom to speak Russian. She doesn't speak Russian. How could I expect her to say things exactly the way I would like them to land on me? That's ridiculous. That I was creating this suffering because I was trying to change reality from how it was. That's the source of all this suffering. Instead, I interpret it again. The pain is just signal, just information. The suffering is up to me.

• 1:11:13Speaker 00

  And so when I remind myself constantly, when something happens that annoys me and triggers me, love is measured by the benefit of the doubt.

• 1:11:20Rangan Chatterjee?

  Yeah, that's really beautiful in there. And throughout the book, there's all kinds of practical exercises that people can... Practice with, because some of this stuff is not going to just land immediately. They're not going to just hear it and go, okay, cool, great. I'm not going to have any relationship problems anymore.

• 1:11:35Speaker 00

  I wrote the book and I have to reread it.

• 1:11:37Rangan Chatterjee?

  Exactly.

• 1:11:38Speaker 00

  Because remember, your brain is trying constantly to suck you back into your default states of passivity.

• 1:11:43Rangan Chatterjee?

  And we will do sometimes, especially when we're tired or overworked or stressed. We will fall back to old patterns and that's okay. As long as you acknowledge it, take responsibility and then try again.

• 1:11:56Speaker 00

  That's right.

• 1:11:56Rangan Chatterjee?

  So yeah, I think really, really great examples. I want to talk about how belief relates to health. Before we do that, could you just give us this framework of these three powers of belief? That I don't think we've touched on them, but probably not heard it as a kind of arching framework. So perhaps give us that.

• 1:12:16Speaker 00

  Sure.

• 1:12:16Rangan Chatterjee?

  And then let's dive deep into health.

• 1:12:19Speaker 00

  Okay, terrific. So we have our limiting beliefs, we have our liberating beliefs.

• 1:12:24Speaker 00

  We also have these three powers of belief. The first power of belief is the power of attention, the power of belief is to change what you see. The second power is the power of anticipation, the power to change what you feel. And then the third power of belief, probably the most powerful of the three, is the power to change what you do. We call this the power of agency.

• 1:12:40Rangan Chatterjee?

  Yeah. And I guess in the power of attention, we've already spoken about this idea that believing is seeing. You mentioned the hypnosis and the chap who did the operation without any anesthetic. We touched on relationships and choose the perspective that kind of helps you, I guess.

• 1:12:59Rangan Chatterjee?

  The second one was the power of anticipation that you just mentioned. And in this section in the book, there was quite a lot of stuff around health, which I found really, really interesting.

• 1:13:13Rangan Chatterjee?

  I particularly like the chapter called Living Longer, Stronger and Smarter, How Your Beliefs Become Your Biology. And you make the case that our thoughts about aging might have more impact on the aging process than things like diet, exercise and sleep. So can you speak to that topic a little bit?

• 1:13:32Speaker 00

  I think it's important to. To clarify some of the myths around beliefs. That I think that there's this kind of popular narrative that just your thoughts will change your biology, that just your thoughts will change your reality. And there's a lot of studies, unfortunately, that turn out not to replicate, that turn out not to be very well-run, that seem to imply this. There's a, we don't need to name this specific studies. But anyway, we should know that beliefs do not directly change your biology. And yet, we know that they can have profound consequences. So there was a study done at Yale where they found that people who have positive views about aging in their 30s end up living seven and a half years longer. Seven and a half years longer. To put that in perspective, that's huge.

• 1:14:15Speaker 00

  That's more in the effect of diet, that's more in the effect of exercise, it's more in the effect of stopping smoking. Seven and a half years is tremendous. Now, what does that look like? What does that sound like? Someone who has a negative view of aging says stuff that we hear all the time, that aging involves inevitable decline. How many times I used to say, you know, I'm not that old, 48, but I used to say, as I was getting to my 40s, "Ah, you know, I'm getting older, that's why I have this back pain," or "I'm having a senior moment when I would forget something." That would be a negative view of aging. And that was kind of my default state.

• 1:14:44Rangan Chatterjee?

  And it's very damaging, isn't it? We don't realize how damaging that stuff is.

• 1:14:48Speaker 00

  And why is it so damaging? It's not that it's sending cosmic vibrations into your mitochondria, that's not what's happening, at least that's not what the evidence shows. There's a very specific reason why it's so damaging. And when we look at people who have positive views about aging, what do they believe? A positive view of aging is something as simple as, "Growth is possible at any age." Growth is possible at any age. So when I have a difficulty, what memory, what belief comes to mind first? "Oh, I'm getting older, I'm having a senior moment." Or, "You know what? Growth is possible at any age." So how is it that believing something as simple as, "Growth is possible at any age," can give you seven and a half years more life? It's not that it's changing your mitochondria in any way, it's not changing your biology directly, it's that people who have a positive view of aging...

• 1:15:32Speaker 00

  Behave differently. So if you have a positive view of aging, if you believe growth is possible at any age, what's gonna happen if you have a little ache and pain, but you have an appointment to go on a walk with a friend? Or go do a community service project in your neighborhood? Or go to the gym? Or go see a friend? These things that we know will improve your longevity. You're much more motivated to do these things to increase your lifespan when you have positive views of aging. You're taking care of a body that you believe can live longer. So your beliefs don't become your biology directly. Your beliefs become behaviors that then become your biology. There's another great example of this, where they took a true group of men, and one of them, they said, "Just do your normal exercise routine."

• 1:16:17Speaker 00

  The other group, they said, "We have a brand-new steroid with no side effects, and so we want you to, we're gonna enroll you in this clinical trial. We want you to take this steroid and then go exercise." Okay? Turns out that the steroid was just a placebo. There was nothing in the steroid, just a pill. Turns out that the men who believed they were taking a steroid, even though it was a placebo, gained more muscle and strength than the men who didn't take the steroid that they didn't know was a placebo. Why did that happen? It's not that the placebo made them stronger and gain more muscle mass, it's that they subtly worked harder. Because they believed they were taking a steroid, they would push out another set. They would increase the weight a little bit. And so they got stronger because they believed they were supposed to get stronger.

• 1:17:01Speaker 00

  They anticipated something to happen, and then it became true. And so that's how our beliefs become our biology, not because of magic, but because it changes our behavior.

• 1:17:12Rangan Chatterjee?

  I wonder what the current epidemic of ill health in our elderly populations are doing to children's view of aging today? Because I think if you... Probably compare the current generation to previous generations. Yes, we're living longer, or many of us are living longer, but we're also living with a lot of sickness and infirmity and cognitive decline. And I wonder what that does to kids growing up. If they're seeing that, if they're seeing elderly infirm grandparents, for example. Do you know what I mean?

• 1:17:56Rangan Chatterjee?

  What message is that imprinting in them? You know, you've shared some great studies from your book. I've also spoken before on this podcast about, you know, in cultures where you have a positive view of women aging, they have less menopausal symptoms. Hmm, amazing. Right? Yeah. In certain tribes, there is a belief that as you get older, you become a faster runner. Right? So you don't believe you get slower as you age. The belief is that when you get to your sixties and your seventies, that's when you're really fast and masterful runner. Amazing. So what does that do to people as they get older? It's not that they slow down, it's like, hey, my best times. Are ahead. Are ahead.

• 1:18:41Rangan Chatterjee?

  So what does that do to your motivation? It increases your motivation to keep running. Yeah. And I really, I would say in my life, one of the best examples of this is my mother-in-law, who's just a phenomenal can-do person. I mean, she will literally, she doesn't believe there's anything she cannot do. And it's, I love it. And I love that my children see this as an example of, you know, in your seventies. You know, she basically, I did the London Marathon, I think in 2021. And, you know, my wife, my kids and my wife's parents came down to London to support. And.

• 1:19:22Rangan Chatterjee?

  My mother-in-law, basically, I think, saw someone in their 70s doing it. And she literally came back and started joining her local 5K partner. And she thought, well, that person can do it. So can I. And then, for a period of time, she was doing parkrun every week, which is 5K every Saturday. So the whole idea that our beliefs have that much of an impact, I think are absolutely massive.

• 1:19:46Speaker 00

  And this is the antidote. This is exactly what we should do. We should, you know, when we are bombarded on the news with all the death and suffering and people hurting each other and scamming each other and all the bad news, we look for that as evidence because that's what the brain expects, right? And in reverse, when we have examples, when we have these positive role models, like, wow, look at that seven-year-old doing it, I can too. The same becomes true. And this is exactly the point, that based on what we see, it informs what we anticipate we can do, and therefore that enhances our agency, all based on beliefs.

• 1:20:19Rangan Chatterjee?

  This whole second power of beliefs, which is about anticipation, we can also, I guess, call it expectation.

• 1:20:24Speaker 00

  That's right.

• 1:20:25Rangan Chatterjee?

  Right? There was such a powerful example you shared about, I think, was it Mr. A and the overdose? So you just mentioned the placebo. Is this the nocebo?

• 1:20:35Speaker 00

  That's right. And so this has to do with how our beliefs can limit what we think we are able to do. So here's what happens. So Mr. A, he's anonymized in the psychology study. Mr. A has a terrible breakup with his girlfriend, and he decides that he wants to end his life. So he finds a pill jar of antidepressants, and he takes the entire bottle of pills. And he decides, that's it, this is the end. As soon as he flushes down all these pills, he swallows them, he has a change of heart, and he decides he wants to live after all. He rushes to the neighbor's house. He tells them, I took all my pills, please take me to the hospital right away. They rush him to the emergency room. When he gets there, he's slipping in and out of consciousness, he collapses on the floor, and he manages to tell the nurses, I took all my pills, I took all my pills.

• 1:21:20Speaker 00

  They rush him into the operating room. They're trying to figure out what he's taken so that they can cure him from this overdose. And they look on the pill jar, and the pill jar has a phone number on it. It doesn't say what the antidepressants are. Meanwhile, by the way, his heart rate is plummeting. His blood pressure is dangerously low. And they're frantically trying to figure out, what did he take? They call this phone number, and it turns out that Mr. A was in a clinical trial for these antidepressants. And he had been placed in the control group. He hadn't taken the antidepressants at all. In fact, he was in the placebo group. So he had swallowed an entire bottle of an inert substance. It was just a placebo. And yet, he was showing these physiological symptoms. He was slipping in and out of consciousness.

• 1:22:05Speaker 00

  His heart rate was falling. His blood pressure was dangerously low. He was exhibiting all the signs of an overdose. They tell Mr. A this, that, hey buddy, you were in the placebo group. Nothing in what you just took could have caused these symptoms. Within 15 minutes, his heart rate and his blood pressure stabilized. He's fully awake. He walks out of the hospital, maybe a bit embarrassed, but totally fine. Now, why do I tell this story? What does it demonstrate? It shows you how your labels can become your limits. And why we have to be very, very careful of believing what we are able to do, what we can become. Because if Mr. A, through believing that he was overdosing, started showing these physiological symptoms, what else does that mean? Actually, it's funny.

• 1:22:49Speaker 00

  On the way over, a colleague of mine, we were talking about coffee, how she's never had coffee. Because one time she had coffee, and she couldn't sleep for three days. Well, we know factually that caffeine exits your system in what? 12 to 24 hours? There's no way you couldn't have slept. What is that? That's the nocebo effect. And so, just like these pills or coffee, we create these symptoms in our mind from all kinds of self-diagnoses.

• 1:23:14Rangan Chatterjee?

  Yeah, it's so powerful. On that example there, what do you think was going on? Because you're making the case in the book that...

• 1:23:27Rangan Chatterjee?

  The reason belief is so powerful when it comes to expectation is not because belief has a magical quality on our mitochondria, it's because belief changes your action, right? So, you know, if you believe you can get stronger and be really active and mobile in your seventies and eighties, you're gonna do more, you're gonna walk more, you're gonna go to the gym, or you're gonna, yeah, I'm not slowing down because I'm getting older, I know I can get strong as I get older. But I guess the reverse is happening here, isn't it? The guy hadn't actually taken the pill, yet his physiology was changing. What do you think might be going on there?

• 1:24:04Speaker 00

  Because he anticipated what was going to happen, right? So he became hyper fixated on the symptoms. He probably, you know, this is what happens with chronic pain, it's very similar, is that there is, with chronic pain, so chronic pain is defined as a pain that does not have a physical source. After six months, you still have that pain, and when we can't determine what else is causing that pain. And so what's happening is a hyper focusing of attention, the first power of belief, where you're looking for any kind of pain signals, and then you're amplifying your awareness of that signal. So the brain, you know, back to that little pinhole of attention, the brain can focus on whatever you're paying attention to. And so that's what you see. That became an interpretation of his internal

• 1:24:46Speaker 00

  bodily state, of his feelings, and then he was confirming that the more he felt it, the more he said it, the more he became sick. It became evidence that it was true. And so this is what we call in pain reprocessing therapy, it's called the fear, pain, fear cycle.

• 1:25:00Rangan Chatterjee?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:00Speaker 00

  That the more, and by the way, fear is always at the heart of all of these limiting beliefs. It's always about fear. That fear amplifies pain, which becomes real. All pain is real. I'm not saying that pain is fake. All pain is real. And... All pain is in the brain.

• 1:25:18Rangan Chatterjee?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:19Speaker 00

  Pain isn't here, pain isn't here, pain isn't here. Pain's in the brain.

• 1:25:22Rangan Chatterjee?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:22Speaker 00

  It's signal. And so what happens when we are afraid of something? It creates, it causes us to hyper-focus on that, on that information, which causes us to pay attention, amplify the pain, which creates more suffering, and then we become more afraid of it. And so this is exactly the cycle of chronic pain as well.

• 1:25:40Rangan Chatterjee?

  Yeah, for sure. I had Howard Chubner on the show, maybe three years ago. He's coming back on in a few weeks. And he's done a lot of the research on pain reprocessing therapy. And we went deep into chronic pain and how, as you say, all pain is real, but pain is created in the brain. And, you know, you mentioned before with hypnotherapy, didn't you? Hypnosis. You can go into an operation and not really experience the pain.

• 1:26:07Speaker 00

  That's right.

• 1:26:07Rangan Chatterjee?

  But someone else who had not done that training would absolutely be experiencing the pain.

• 1:26:11Speaker 00

  And in fact, they feel pain where it doesn't exist. So just like pain is not necessarily suffering, sickness is not illness. Those are two separate things. That sickness is in the body, but illness is in the mind.

• 1:26:25Speaker 00

  Even though, you know, it's fascinating. We spend about 80% of healthcare spending is taking care of the symptoms. Is the illness is where 80% of our healthcare spending goes. It's only 20% towards the actual physical maladies.

• 1:26:36Rangan Chatterjee?

  Yeah, I want to talk about that, actually. Just want to finish off on what you're talking about with the, I guess, the biology of belief. And you talk about research from, is it Dr. Levy? Levy? You, you, you basically say here in that chapter, which I found remarkable. Levi's research has consistently shown that how we think about aging affects how we age, and this happens through multiple pathways. Cognitive functioning, cardiovascular health, recovery from disability, preventive health behaviors. And, you know, if people want more detail, they could read it in the book. But it's truly fascinating how important our beliefs are when it comes to our health.

• 1:27:17Speaker 00

  Yeah, but what's so frustrating, and I think this is, this is what I still struggle with, is that when people hear this.

• 1:27:26Speaker 00

  There's an immediate wall that goes up because the way limiting beliefs work, because of the brain's penchant for passivity, because it's constantly trying to drag us back into what we always did, there's this immediate reflex of, yeah, but that's not going to work for me. Right? That I guarantee you, people listening to this right now are thinking, yeah, that's all fine, but I have a special condition. I'm a special case, because their brain is desperately getting them to not change their mind. And that's what I would encourage people to dive into, that if you feel that resistance, if you feel that notion of, no, no, no, the condition preventing me from trying a new perspective is a fact, even more reason to dive into this power of belief, that it probably is way more malleable than you think. And the

• 1:28:07Speaker 00

  nice thing is, it's something you can try on. It's like when you go to a shoe store, you don't walk into a shoe store with the same pair of shoes and leave. No, you try on a new pair of shoes. You see if there's something that might fit better for you. And it turns out that not only does it decrease physical suffering, it does increase cognitive abilities. There's so much that changing your beliefs can do for you.

• 1:28:31Rangan Chatterjee?

  As a doctor, I have thought for many years about the pros and cons of labels. And you do have this section in your book entitled, "Labels Are Your Limits." You've touched on this a little bit already, but I really want to explore this topic because I think labels, as you can call them, diagnoses, if you want, through the lens of health,

• 1:29:00Rangan Chatterjee?

  can be a double edged sword. They can be liberating and empowering, or they can be entrapping. So can you speak to this idea? Because I think it's a, particularly for my audience, I think this is huge.

• 1:29:14Speaker 00

  Yeah. So I think there's a few, there are a few conflating events that I think are subtly harming us. One is that I think we have this explosion in diagnoses. And there was a medical professional I talked to for the book who said, you know, one day, medical science will advance to the point where everyone is sick. And I think we're getting to that state, that even today, it turns out that the majority of Britons are neurodivergent, the majority.

• 1:29:47Speaker 00

  Between ADHD and OCD and all the different diagnoses we have. Now, that's not a knock on diagnoses. It's a questioning of where is the check and balance? Because, you know, I have ADHD. I've been diagnosed with ADHD. It wasn't a blood test. It wasn't an MRI study. It was a questionnaire. And that questionnaire asked me completely subjective questions. How often, you're on a Likert scale. How often do you experience distraction? Compared to who? Exactly. How do I know that I experience distraction more than you do? Well, I look for this confluence of symptoms and then I have a five-point scale and then you have a diagnosis. Now, I'm not anti-diagnoses, per se. They can be incredibly empowering.

• 1:30:31Speaker 00

  In fact, there's what's called the Rumpelstiltskin effect. Do you remember the fairy tale of Rumpelstiltskin? Where the princess has to name the little gremlin in order for her to overcome the challenge? And we have to be cognizant of this, that we love this Rumpelstiltskin effect. That when I was diagnosed with ADHD, oh, what a weight off my shoulders. You see all these struggles I've had. Now I have an explanation. This is the reason I've been struggling. But there's a downside. There's a cost. And the cost was that every time I was distracted, every time my mind went off track, I immediately thought to myself, there's my ADHD. There's my chronic condition. And I would start ruminating, again, fear.

• 1:31:12Speaker 00

  Fear would cause me to say, well, if this ADHD, I can't get it under control. Maybe I need a new treatment regimen. Maybe if I can't meet my deadline, what are my editors going to say? And if I can't get on, you know, I would start working myself up into a frenzy over something that was just a belief, that this was something I could never escape. You see, what I've learned about diagnoses is that diagnoses are a map. It's a map. You're here and you're trying to get there. And so there are many paths in order for you to get there. What I was doing, and I think what many people do, I took my diagnosis to mean that I was the map. I'm not the map. I'm using a map as a tool. And so today, I don't, when I get distracted, who doesn't get distracted these days? Everybody gets distracted from time to time.

• 1:31:56Speaker 00

  Instead, it's not, there's my ADHD, a chronic condition which I will always have and never get rid of. No, I'm learning a skill.

• 1:32:05Speaker 00

  I'm learning a skill. That's it. I'm learning a skill. And that's, and maybe I'm starting at a place where other people are far ahead of me. Okay, so what? There's probably things that I'm way better at. Let me prove it to you. I've written three bestsellers with ADHD. Why? Because it's not that I always get distracted because of this chronic brain condition. It's that when I'm interested in something, I'm hyper fixated on it. I love it. You can't pull me away. And that's why I can focus long enough for things I enjoy.

• 1:32:30Rangan Chatterjee?

  Yeah, is it liberating or limiting?

• 1:32:33Speaker 00

  Exactly.

• 1:32:33Rangan Chatterjee?

  You would actually probably really enjoy. There's a book called The Age of Diagnosis by the neurologist, the British neurologist. I think she's British. Was she Irish? I can't remember now. The neurologist, Dr. Suzanne O'Sullivan, she came on the show maybe a year ago or so. And she writes a whole book on, on this topic of, you know, the, the, the age of diagnosis in which we're living. But Suzanne asks the question.

• 1:33:01Rangan Chatterjee?

  Or Suzanne thinks one way we can look at this is to ask ourselves, is the diagnosis helping me? I think it's beautifully simple. It might be that actually you've spent 10 years struggling with your health, not knowing what you have, and then finally someone gives you a diagnosis and that feels, you know, I knew it. I knew I had something. And, you know, it, it feels very reassuring.

• 1:33:28Rangan Chatterjee?

  You know, and it may help you access certain treatments. And also beware, because certain diagnoses can become a new prison for you to live in. And you see everything in the world through that belief.

• 1:33:41Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 1:33:42Rangan Chatterjee?

  The belief that that diagnosis is you.

• 1:33:44Speaker 00

  That's right. So what we want to be careful of is called identity foreclosure. That when we believe that we are a certain kind of person, we should be very, very careful of that. I mean, this is why we don't call people addicts anymore. We don't say addicts. We say people struggling with impulse control. Because you don't want people to think, well, that's who I am. That's, that's the mold. Because you can change your behavior. People have a really tough time changing who they are. They think that those are immutable traits. So we don't need that language in our lives. We don't need to believe that we are a diagnosis. If it's not serving you, you can change.

• 1:34:17Rangan Chatterjee?

  Lies can become reality. You write about Serena Williams and it's a beautiful story, which really speaks to the power of beliefs and expectation. But I guess it's a story that's worthwhile us going through because some could interpret it as fake it until you make it. And so tell the story of Serena and then let's just unpick what we can learn from it.

• 1:34:45Speaker 00

  Sure. So Serena Williams at Wimbledon and she's having a really tough time that year. And the problem is, in that year's Wimbledon, the problem was that she wasn't rushing the net. And she was getting in her head too much and somehow she lost confidence in rushing the net. And when you don't rush the net, milliseconds count and you lose points. And she was doing very badly. Then her coach, Patrick Montaglu, takes her side and says, Serena, look, I looked at the statistics and it says here that when you rush the net, 80% of the time, you score a point. It's the best news of the day. Amazing. She says, well, really? I thought I sucked at the net. And he says, well, you know, look, the statistics don't lie.

• 1:35:29Speaker 00

  And it's true. Statistics don't lie.

• 1:35:31Rangan Chatterjee?

  Can I just pause you there just for a minute? So it's basically that she was going through a bit of a rough patch. She believed that she wasn't rushing the net. Patrick, her coach, also saw that she wasn't rushing the net. But Patrick told her that the statistics say that you are rushing the net and you're doing well when you do.

• 1:35:53Speaker 00

  He was telling her that when she rushes the net, he wanted her to rush the net more, but she was limiting herself. She was holding herself back. So he said, look, don't fear the net. When you rush the net, you score 80% of the points.

• 1:36:03Rangan Chatterjee?

  And that wasn't true.

• 1:36:04Speaker 00

  Not even close. He completely lied to her. Now, what he says was, is that the lie became reality. Because after he told her that, she gained confidence, based on the lie he had told her. She started rushing the net. She did end up scoring 80% of the points at the net, and she ended up winning Wimbledon that year. Now, is what I'm advising people to do is to lie to themselves? Should we just gaslight ourselves and believe anything we want to believe? Not exactly. You see, her coach knew, and this is what makes coaching so powerful. Her coach knew what she was capable of.

• 1:36:40Rangan Chatterjee?

  Yeah.

• 1:36:41Speaker 00

  Just like those rats we had talked about at the very beginning. That they had it in them all along.

• 1:36:46Rangan Chatterjee?

  And he had evidence that she has the skills as well.

• 1:36:49Speaker 00

  He wasn't making it, he wasn't saying, "Oh Serena, go fly."

• 1:36:51Rangan Chatterjee?

  He wasn't taking someone off the street and saying, "Hey, you can go to the net and rush it."

• 1:36:55Speaker 00

  It was based on fact.

• 1:36:56Rangan Chatterjee?

  Yeah.

• 1:36:56Speaker 00

  So here's the most common criticism I get to all this. Are you telling people to lie to ourselves? Should we just, you know, gaslight ourselves? Well, I would argue, you are already gaslighting yourself. You're already lying to yourself. You just picked the limiting belief versus the liberating belief. So we can choose. Serena was picking the limiting belief, "I suck at the net." Her coach knew a liberating belief, that you're great at the net. And he knew that that could also be true. Right? Beliefs are tools, not truths. Which one was a fact? They were both true. If she believed she sucked at the net, she did. And if she believed she was great at the net, she also was. So by reminding her of this liberating belief, the lie became reality.

• 1:37:34Rangan Chatterjee?

  I'd love to know if Serena's ever commented on this. And, you know, has he? I'm sure she knows now. It would be quite interesting, her take on that. It kind of reminds me of many, many years ago, maybe in my late twenties, when I was getting into golf. I hadn't played in years. I can, on occasion, get quite obsessed about things. And I would buy lots of books on golf and the mental game of golf. And I'm almost certain from recollection, there was a book by someone called Bob Rotella. He's written bestsellers on the psychology of golf, basically. And I'm almost certain from recollection, I haven't thought about this in years, that...

• 1:38:12Rangan Chatterjee?

  Some of the most excellent putters, I mean putting is a critically important skill in golf. They say you drive for show, you putt for dough, right? Because it doesn't matter how good your drives on your iron shots are, and if you don't sink that five footer time and time again, you ain't going to win anything, right? And sometimes interviewers at the end of their round, they'd go up and say, hey, listen, you know, your drives, your iron play was great today, but of course, you know, had your putting been a bit better, obviously you would have scored higher.

• 1:38:43Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:38:44Rangan Chatterjee?

  And I think he trained people and he says some of the best golfers would say, what are you talking about? I putted great today. The putts didn't go in, but I putted great.

• 1:38:52Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:38:53Rangan Chatterjee?

  And it's

• 1:38:54Speaker 00

  Interesting.

• 1:38:54Rangan Chatterjee?

  It's kind of interesting. So yeah, could it be self deception? Well, possibly, but you know, you're also talking about some of the best golfers in the world who probably know that they're capable of putting really well. And it's more helpful for them to choose the belief.

• 1:39:09Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:39:10Rangan Chatterjee?

  Right? That, hey, I putted great today.

• 1:39:12Speaker 00

  That's terrific. I mean, this is a great demonstration of the power of agency. Why is that so important? So just that small distinction of that I controlled what I could.

• 1:39:23Rangan Chatterjee?

  Yeah.

• 1:39:23Speaker 00

  I putted great. Now, whether there was a bit of wind

• 1:39:26Rangan Chatterjee?

  Exactly.

• 1:39:26Speaker 00

  or outside circumstances, I can't control that, but I did what was under my control. This gets back to this concept of locus of control.

• 1:39:33Rangan Chatterjee?

  Yeah.

• 1:39:33Speaker 00

  Which turns out to be incredibly important for our psychological well being. That there are two, two ways of looking at the world per se, that one is called an external locus of control and one is an internal locus of control. An external locus of control, these people say that things happen to me. You know, the world is so crazy these days with the politics and the wars and the economy and AI, all these things are happening to me. A person with an internal locus of control believes that they affect change, that they are responsible for where they are in life. Now, here's what's interesting about this. Number one, people with an internal locus of control that believe generally that I control my circumstances, do better in life in almost every conceivable way. They make more money, they have more friends, they contribute more to their community.

• 1:40:16Speaker 00

  All these good things happen. They're psychologically, they have less rates of depression, anxiety disorder. All these good things happen to people with an internal locus of control more than the external locus of control. Now, here's the real kicker. Even when the fact is that you are persecuted, or that you're at the bottom of the socioeconomic strata, or that you're discriminated against, even when you have every factual reason to claim that the world is inhibiting you in some way, you still do better with an internal locus of control. So that is 100% in your control. You can't always control your circumstances. And of course, there's inequality. And it's ridiculous not to think there isn't inequality. But it turns out that even in those circumstances, you do better psychologically with that internal locus of control.

• 1:41:00Rangan Chatterjee?

  You don't know how much I loved that section in the book, right? Because one of the things that comes up in the health world is exactly what you just said, right? Many doctors will say, "All of this personal agency stuff about what you do for your health is pointless. These are socioeconomic problems." And I once gave a keynote a couple of years ago, I think at the British Science of Lifetime Medicine. And I said that whilst that viewpoint is true, it's also condescending.

• 1:41:35Speaker 00

  Hmm, and not very useful.

• 1:41:37Rangan Chatterjee?

  And not very useful. And the truth is, it's both, right? It's like, nothing's black or white. Should we be trying to improve the quality of living and lifestyles for everyone? Yeah, of course, we should. But actually, no matter how bad your situation is, it always helps to have a better personal agency, a belief that actually I can do something to influence the outcome.

• 1:42:02Speaker 00

  Right? Even if it's not based on fact? I think that's what's so mind blowing, is that even if it's not objectively true, it's a different standard. One is about, should society change? Of course, society can improve. But if you sit there and wait for society to improve, you're gonna be dead already. By the time that happens, your life will have passed you by.

• 1:42:19Rangan Chatterjee?

  Yeah, just to sort of finish off that point, a really simple example is, okay.

• 1:42:26Rangan Chatterjee?

  Let's say an individual has got a stressful job and they don't like the way their colleagues and their boss speaks to them and they hate the job. But they do it because it's the only job they can get, right? If I can teach them a breathing exercise, right? That helps them lower stress because it does, you know? There are many breathing exercises that we know physiologically will lower your stress levels and change the tone of your nervous system. If I teach that individual that, it doesn't change the fact that the boss is not very nice to them or they don't want to be in that job, but it changes their perception of that.

• 1:43:08Rangan Chatterjee?

  It changes their possibility when the boss says that, instead of getting triggered, they can be a bit calmer, they can look at it differently, they can look at options.

• 1:43:17Speaker 00

  That's right.

• 1:43:18Rangan Chatterjee?

  Right? So it's not either or, it's both.

• 1:43:20Speaker 00

  That's right. And so this is why having this practice of these frequently accessible liberating beliefs. For example, for me, whenever something is hard, it feels painful, it feels difficult, there's that automatic reaction between the pain, the signal and the suffering. So how do we short circuit that? How do we divert it to a liberating belief? For me, for example, you know, I've written three bestsellers, I've written thousands of articles, writing for me is never easy. It's hard frickin' work. I want to do anything but the writing. I want to go look at Instagram or check email or stock prices or sports scores, do anything but. Because in my mind before, the limiting belief was if this is painful, I should escape. I shouldn't do this if it hurts. Well, now I have a new belief.

• 1:44:02Speaker 00

  The new belief is this is what it feels like to get better. This is what it feels like to get better. Just having that frame of mind that you know what? That discomfort, that's a good thing. That's the point, that I'm learning something from this and I have something rare that maybe other people can't do, that's special about what I'm doing. This is what it feels like to get better. Whereas my initial reaction was, well, if I was really good at this, if I was a real professional, it would be easy, it would be effortless. I could, you know, I wouldn't feel this discomfort. No, who says that? That's not true, that's a belief. So by simply changing that belief, it really can work wonders. And it turns out, it's free, anyone can adopt it, has no side effects. And so this is one of the, you know, we talked about in the book how

• 1:44:44Speaker 00

  Pills don't teach skills, that in fact that it's our it's our drive, that our problems, so much of medical science has done so much good for us, that we can get relief from pills so easily. The problem is that we have this expectation of urgency. We talk about this in pain reprocessing therapy, that one of the steps is to lower the speed, that when we feel pain, that one of the things that we can do in pain reprocessing is to not expect instant relief. Medical science has taught us that we should constantly get relief. But if you think about the history of mankind, it's only in the last few hundred years that we have these instantaneous solutions. What do you think people did for 200,000 years? The kings and queens of England had sores and abscesses and parasites and all kinds of pain all day long.

• 1:45:28Speaker 00

  And they also figured out how to overcome those things without anesthetics. And they were in pain a lot. And so we can learn how to differentiate, that not every stressor, not every pain point has to bring us down, has to be suffering. We can learn to look at it differently. And so those frequent mantras, like we talked about, about how that everyone is operating from the tools they have, or this is what it feels like to get better. Or one of my favorites is that things don't get easier, you get stronger. These mantras that we repeat throughout the day, this is our defense system against this this constant pulling back into passivity and limiting beliefs.

• 1:46:07Rangan Chatterjee?

  Yeah. Now, honestly, you take your time writing these books, but this is just a wonderful book. We've not even scratched the sides on what's in it. I did want to talk about the chapters on prayer, but I'm gonna save that for people to read the book. And you'll see that actually, even if you're not religious, there's a lot in that chapter for you. I love that story when you go and see the priest, you go into the synagogue, you go to the Hindu temple, you go to the mosque, and you see all those similarities. It's really great. The book is brand new. It's called Beyond Belief: The Science-Backed Way to Stop Limiting Yourself and Achieve Extraordinary Results. Change Your Mind, Change Your Life.

• 1:46:51Rangan Chatterjee?

  It's a brilliant read.

• 1:46:55Rangan Chatterjee?

  Now, to finish off, first of all, I've had a wonderful conversation.

• 1:46:58Speaker 00

  Thank you.

• 1:46:58Rangan Chatterjee?

  I really, really enjoyed it.

• 1:47:00Speaker 00

  Thank you.

• 1:47:02Rangan Chatterjee?

  For that person who has heard us talk today, Neer, and has realized that actually they have limited their experience of life because of their limiting beliefs. What final words do you have for that person to change those limiting beliefs to liberating ones?

• 1:47:28Speaker 00

  First step is realizing that you don't see reality clearly. To allow yourself that grace to realize that you just can't see reality clearly. So that's step number one. Then, look for those limiting beliefs. This is probably the hardest part because limiting beliefs are like our faces. I say, "Look at your face right now. How do you look at your face? You can't look at your face. We all have them, but we can't look at our own face. We can look at our hands, we can look at our feet. We can't look at our face. And so, just like our faces, we can't look at them. We can't look at our limiting beliefs on our own. How do we look at our face? We go to a mirror. We have to reflect. And so, your brain is trying to protect you from seeing those limiting beliefs. Because again, that's where safety lies. So in order to uncover those limiting beliefs,

• 1:48:13Speaker 00

  you have to reflect. You have to do a process, which is where we look for what I call the muck. The muck are those areas of your life where you have a goal, you have an aspiration of some kind, but you're not making progress. It's that New Year's resolution that you've had for year after year. It's that annoying relationship that you can't figure out how to fix. It's that dream that you've deferred again and again. You know you're capable, but for some reason, you can't get yourself to do what you know you should do. That's where the limiting beliefs lie. So if you can identify those limiting beliefs and then simply experiment with, "Could the exact opposite be true?" For a limited amount of time. "Could the exact opposite be true?" There's a few more steps we didn't get to. But when you do that, you realize that you have far more potential

• 1:48:57Speaker 00

  than you ever imagined.

• 1:48:59Rangan Chatterjee?

  Neer, it's a wonderful book, Beyond Belief. Thank you so much for coming on the show.

• 1:49:02Speaker 00

  My pleasure. Thank you.

• 1:49:08Rangan Chatterjee?

  Really hope you enjoyed that conversation. Do think about one thing that you can take away and apply into your own life. And also have a think about one thing from this conversation that you can teach to somebody else. Remember, when you teach someone, it not only helps them, it also helps you learn and retain the information. Now, before you go, just wanted to let you know about Friday 5. It's my free weekly email containing five simple ideas to improve your health and happiness. In that email, I share exclusive insights that I do not share anywhere else, including health advice, how to manage your time better, interesting articles or videos that I've been consuming,

• 1:49:51Rangan Chatterjee?

  and quotes that have caused me to stop and reflect. And I have to say, in a world of endless emails, it really is delightful that many of you tell me it is one of the only weekly emails that you actively look forward to receiving. So if that sounds like something you would like to receive each and every Friday, you can sign up for free at drchatgy.com/friday5. Now, if you are new to my podcast, you may be interested to know that I have written five books that have been bestsellers all over the world, covering all kinds of different topics: happiness, food, stress, sleep, behaviour change and movement, weight loss, and so much more. So please do take a moment to check them out.

• 1:50:33Rangan Chatterjee?

  They are all available as paperbacks, ebooks, and as audiobooks, which I am narrating. If you enjoyed today's episode, it is always appreciated if you can take a moment to share the podcast with your friends and family, or leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Thank you so much for listening. Have a wonderful week. And please note that if you want to listen to this show without any adverts at all, that option is now available for a small monthly fee on Apple and on Android. All you have to do is click the link in the episode notes in your podcast app. And always remember, you are the architect of your own health.

• 1:51:14Rangan Chatterjee?

  Making lifestyle change is always worth it, because when you feel better, you live more.