Break free from people pleasing, with Keisha Buchanan, Megan Barton-Hanson, and Jade Scott

Have you ever changed yourself to fit in with other people? Or dulled your character so they don’t think you’re ‘too much’? Do you compare yourself a lot or sacrifice your own needs so not to cause a fuss? Fearne has done all these things and more over the years in a bid to be more likeable. But it’s time to stop shapeshifting to make ourselves palatable to others! Sugababes Keisha Buchanan, Love Island’s Megan Barton-Hanson, and The Traitor’s Jade Scott join Fearne to reflect on their own experiences of people pleasing and being disliked. They share advice on being okay with people not ‘getting’ you, allowing yourself to be multifaceted, and speaking up for yourself. This is all about building the confidence to live life on your own terms, not the life others want you to live. Fearne’s new book, Likeable, is out now. If you liked this episode of Happy Place, you might also like: Natalie Lue https://pod.fo/e/2e61b9 Emma Gannon https://pod.fo/e/39d084 Poorna Bell https://pod.fo/e/394770 Child on the line is a three-part documentary podcast series celebrating the Volunteer Counsellors of Childline, and the brave children & young people who contact the helpline service. Listen here: https://www.childonthelinepodcast.com/ Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Hi, I'm Natalie Dormer and I'm proud to be an ambassador for Childline. This year, Childline turns 40. To market, I've made Child on the Line, a three-part documentary podcast. We hear why children needed a helpline in 1986, how it was built against the odds and the challenges children face today, from abuse and mental health to social media and AI. Search Child on the Line and listen wherever you get your podcasts.

• 0:28Fearne Cotton?

  Hello, welcome to Happy Place with me, Fern Cotton. Today, let's unpack what it really means to be likeable, shall we? I'm chatting to Keisha Buchanan, Megan Barton Hanson and Jade Scott.

• 0:44Speaker 02

  I think people, they really couldn't get their head around that in some situations, I'm such an introvert, I'm such a kind, sensitive, little Pisces, subtle. And then in another breath, I'm like, no, if I fancy that man, I'm going to go for what I want. I'm going to get him. So I think that was hard for people to wrap their head around that women are multifaceted.

• 1:03Speaker 03

  I don't know anyone who wakes up in the morning and just like, I'm just, you know, I don't mind if I'm not like. I was being called defensive a lot and I was like, what am I supposed to do? Not sit here and defend myself? So I'd walk into most situations just thinking that no one liked me. And I was like, God, like what if people see me as this like really weak, like vulnerable young woman, because that's not who I am. Like on the front of the sun, it's like muggy Megan this, like Megan Seedy passes, a stripper. And I can't like go into people's brains and control the way they think. Like they have a right to, to think what they think, have their thoughts and like that's okay. And that's been the biggest thing.

• 1:38Fearne Cotton?

  I was actually like the most hated person, it felt like, in Britain. Oh my God, I honestly, I am bursting with excitement about this episode. I just want to get to it. So I don't want to waffle on too much, but basically the idea for this chat came about last year at some point, I was thinking up ideas with a group of brilliant minds I work with about what we could do podcast-wise when my new book, Likeable, comes out.

• 2:05Fearne Cotton?

  And I've got to shout out the exact person who had this idea. Simon Jones, who I work with, said, wouldn't it be interesting to chat to different people who have had very different experiences in the public eye about being disliked? Because that is obviously one of the big risks of being in the public eye is that you're publicly mocked, humiliated, or just simply disliked. And I loved that idea. So we've been working on this for ages, getting the right collection of people together. And I think we've just hit the nail on the head with this incredible group of women who I learned so much from today and I'm so grateful for their time and their company.

• 2:46Fearne Cotton?

  If you've not heard me waffling on about my book recently, it's called Likeable. And it's essentially all about how much we change and morph and shapeshift to be liked by those around us, or even people that we don't know and the lengths that we go to. And personally, how detrimental I have found that in my life. And also what we can do about it and how we can learn to live alongside the discomfort of being unliked, but also just the discomfort of pissing people off a bit as well. That's what I feel deeply passionately about, changing for everyone, for all women and men, because men deal with this as well. But I am specifically speaking to women today. So let's talk about these amazing women.

• 3:26Fearne Cotton?

  Join me are three women who have particularly interesting relationships with or experiences of being liked or disliked. Keisha is an original member of the Sugababes. I mean, I've known Keisha for over 20 years because we've both been at it for a long time. I used to interview Keisha all the time back in the day and I've seen her sporadically over the years. In the late 90s and noughties, she was often labelled difficult by the tabloids. She was hard to work with, in inverted commas, and was often blamed when there was a switch in band members. More generally, the band was known for being quite direct and they didn't buy into the sort of forced cheerfulness the media generally expected of girl groups.

• 4:11Fearne Cotton?

  Megan Barton Hanson was on Love Island in 2018. She'd worked as a glamour model before entering the villa. And was incredibly open about her sexuality and sensuality. But she was labelled a man eater and a home wrecker during her season of Love Island. And has continued to be criticised for her sexual openness and confidence, quite frankly. Then we've got Jade Scott, who I was absolutely captivated by on the latest series of Traitors. My kids rarely give a toss about anything I'm doing at work, but when I told my daughter Honey that I was meeting Jade today, she flipped out, absolutely flipped. We loved Jade on Traitors so, so much.

• 4:54Fearne Cotton?

  It was fascinating and saddening to watch her being perceived as either too defensive or just too emotional by her fellow contestants and overly manipulative by the public, who were taking issue with her not smiling as much as they wanted her to, for fuck's sake. So, does it matter if we're liked? Who is it most important to be liked by? How can we stop people pleasing without putting up boundaries that leave us feeling lonely? How can we let each other grow and change without putting them down? I have a lot of questions for these brilliant women.

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• 7:30Fearne Cotton?

  To this glorious chat in just a moment, but can we just have a little second to talk about the new Happy Place Edit Box? We've got a new one. It came straight after the other one because the other one sold out straight away. This one's all about celebrating International Women's Day. But you know what I love about the idea of breaking barriers? Because that's what it says on the front of the box. It doesn't always have to be loud. It can just be choosing yourself, setting a boundary, or starting something new, having your say, living your life how you want to live it. This Edit Box is a nod to that spirit. Each product in the box comes from a female owned or female led business, which we love supporting on our Happy Place Marketplace,

• 8:13Fearne Cotton?

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• 9:03Fearne Cotton?

  Hey ladies. Hi. So excited about this. Megan, Keisha, Jade, thank you so much for being here today. This is a subject that I know we can have a really juicy chat about. So much so that I wrote a book about this subject matter. Because I think I realised at a certain point in my life that likability had such a weight to it. And it was actually becoming very detrimental. And I think that we are a perfect group of women to have this chat. We've all got our different relationship with that subject matter. And the other side of it, which is at times publicly having criticism, critique, or assumptions made about you. We've all been in that boat. So I'm really keen to get all of your thoughts on it.

• 9:47Fearne Cotton?

  So first of all, a massive bloody thank you.

• 9:51Speaker 08

  Thank you.

• 9:52Fearne Cotton?

  I guess where we should start is maybe just looking at the subject of likability as a broad subject. So for me, I think being likeable means compliance at this point in my life. I think I used to believe it was making everyone else happy. Everyone's okay, then the world is good. But actually, I now see it as compliance. I was just shape shifting to placate everybody else to my detriment. What does that subject mean to you, or that word mean to you Jade?

• 10:27Speaker 08

  I think it's just a bit like making sure that everyone, like everyone has this image of you. And then making sure that you live up to that image. And then you kind of have to follow like a line of expectation. So I guess the same kind of thing, like complacency. Like if I were to branch out and do something a little bit different, people would kind of be like, oh, I'm not sure about that. And it's kind of like, well. You grow and evolve, right? You develop new interests and they're not necessarily gonna align with everyone who follows you.

• 10:55Fearne Cotton?

  No, exactly. And that's why then we end up showing up as a different version of ourselves. It's like a fake. I used to perform, that was my trick. I'll just perform and be like, you know, this all singing, all dancing person so that everyone's like, oh, she's so fun and she's so full of energy. And sometimes I was like, I'm exhausted from pretending to be this person that I'm not. Sometimes I can be quite quiet and reserved, but I would have this sort of performative front. How about you, Keisha? What does being likeable mean?

• 11:23Speaker 03

  Yeah, I feel like it was probably more difficult when I was obviously being a part of a group. I think there's a lot of comparison. So if you are, you know, maybe if your personality maybe is a bit more louder or if your tone of voice, like for me, I feel like I've got such a, I call it like a colourful tone. So it could be high, it could be low, it could be, and I feel like sometimes that made me like extremely paranoid, especially if you're sitting next to, you know, people who maybe speak a bit different to you. So there was like a lot of pressure, I feel like, that I was unaware of. And I think same as you, I think I've got to a point where, and definitely I feel like it comes with age too, that I'm just actually authentically probably the most myself than I ever have been.

• 12:06Speaker 03

  And just being like, here I am, this is what it is. And I've actually feel like I've gotten more love from it, more understanding from it actually, because I feel like now I'm not having to master, try to be like anyone else or try to be like, there's no, uh, I'm sure there's always gonna be, I'm still in the group now, so I feel like there's always gonna be comparisons, but I think it's different as you get older, um, because you kind of, you're so comfortable within yourself. And you sort of understand that like everyone is different. You know, you know that, but I think you put it into practice as you get.

• 12:35Fearne Cotton?

  And I think it is hard one, and a lot of it does come with age. I feel the same. I am now pretty okay with turning up as myself on any given day. And if people thought that I was a bit quiet or whatever it is, or too loud, or whatever the mood was that day, then not my problem. I'm gonna go home and crack on with my day and not lose sleep over it. Whereas I would before, I would be lying awake going, I said this thing and they might think this and, you know, you go in into those awful spirals, wondering what the other person thinks. We've got a. Hopefully get to a place where we where we care less essentially.

• 13:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 13:11Fearne Cotton?

  Um Megan, what about you? What does being likeable mean?

• 13:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, I feel like a lot of what you girls covered, like when you're younger, you just wanna conform and fit in with everything else, like whether you're male, female at school, it's just you wanna be like everyone else. You're all like cardboard cutouts of each other. And I remember like my first memory, I was watching like Top of the Pops and I was like really like enjoying this like heavy rock song. I was like, girls don't like that Meg. And like she said that, I think, from a place of wanting to protect me because back then girls were very girly, listening to Spice Girls, whatever. And she's doing that from what she's been taught generations on. So I don't know whether it's like because you get older, you get more confident or whether it's society's slowly letting us branch out and be more individual. Because definitely growing up in like

• 14:00Speaker 02

  primary school, senior school, everybody had to conform and be the same or you'd be ostracised.

• 14:05Fearne Cotton?

  I think it's probably a bit of both, I reckon. I think we all have like, it's human nature for us to want to be accepted by our peer group. So certainly at secondary school, me and my mates, who are still my best mates today, would all dress the same, have the same hairstyle, wear the same kicker shoes. You know, we all fit into this little pod where we were this homogenous group because we wanted to belong. And we still all, when we sit there talking, have identical intonation and you know, we've sort of morphed into one another. But I think when we start letting that spill into like every social situation we're in and we are like chameleons changing in any situation, that's when I cer- certainly started to question, why am I doing that? Why am I

• 14:50Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 14:50Fearne Cotton?

  You know, changing for these people I don't even know half the time.

• 14:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 14:54Fearne Cotton?

  It's terrifying.

• 14:55Speaker 02

  And I I do feel like there's still like parts of me that like wants to be like, I don't know anyone who wakes up in the morning and just like, I'm just you know, I don't mind if I'm not liked today. You know, I feel like that is important to me, like that people, I show up well and people like me. Um but I think it becomes a problem when you start to.

• 15:12Speaker 03

  Uh not be authentic when you start to kind of go against your moral compass, you know, um to please everyone, you know, not really speak what's in your mind, not stand for, you know, for, I don't know, injustices or just things that you uh know deep down inside that's the right thing to do. I feel like that's when you, the compromise.

• 15:28Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 15:29Speaker 03

  When it starts to go left.

• 15:30Fearne Cotton?

  I so agree. I don't think the goal in any of this is to be like, I couldn't give a fuck. I don't care. I don't care what anyone thinks.

• 15:36Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 15:36Fearne Cotton?

  I have never met that person. And I think even the people that say that, they they do care deep down.

• 15:42Speaker 03

  We do. We have, they have to.

• 15:44Fearne Cotton?

  We do care. I think for me, the biggest lesson has been learning to live alongside, knowing that someone out there doesn't like you. Or even a group of people.

• 15:51Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 15:51Fearne Cotton?

  Going, oh god, that hurt. But actually, I'm I'm still okay. Before, what I would do is go, oh, I must be bad. I'm bad. Like, I'm a bad person. Someone doesn't like me. I'm, there must be something wrong with me. And now I can live alongside, okay, I'm just not that, the person that person likes. And that is, that's where it ends. That's, that's the full stop. Let's dig deeper into the very strange relationship that all of us have had with being in the public eye and having outside commentary. I mean, Keisha, we, we go back.

• 16:26Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 16:26Fearne Cotton?

  We go back. This has been in your life and my life for decades. And you do sadly grow used to negative outside commentary. We've both, you know, everybody in the public eye

• 16:38Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 16:39Fearne Cotton?

  has to deal with that to some, you know, varying degrees. And I have never felt particularly able to cope with it. I mean, certainly better now. But when I was younger, and certainly when social media came to the forefront of our worlds, I just thought, I can't, I'm not thick skinned. I'm, I'm a sensitive person. I, I can't handle it. When you were first thrust onto the music scene and, you know, back when the Sugababes started, you were everywhere. And there were TV shows to support a band like that. Top of the Pops, kids TV shows. You were blanket coverage when you released a single. That is a bombardment of commentary uh in, in those moments. How, how did you cope with it then?

• 17:18Speaker 03

  Well, thankfully, there wasn't like social media.

• 17:21Fearne Cotton?

  No.

• 17:21Speaker 03

  So I didn't have to see things like firsthand. And there was not so much. Pressure. Well, I will say this, that being a part of the Sugar Babes, the good thing about being a part of it was that, you know, our brand really embraced individuality and not perfection. We were actually like, they called us like the girl band that you're allowed to like. So, you know, it was okay for us to show up a little bit like, rough and ready compared to our, you know, our counterparts. But I think that coming on the scene, it definitely was, I mean, just being a teenager definitely wasn't, you know, easy a lot of the time. But it was actually more so coming from the prince, the, the, the press, like anything like negative that we would see was more so from that point of view. I think for me, I struggled like

• 18:06Speaker 03

  for such a long time because I think behind the scenes, I guess I felt like there was like more so like a lot of support. But I was always told that I wasn't necessarily allowed to like speak up about things that were like maybe like untrue. So I didn't really get the, the chance to represent. And I think, you know, Elephant in the Room being the only black girl as well. I think that there was sort of like that, that narrative. There was a lot of things that were obviously not true, a lot of narratives. And there were, you know, I could have an, an interview or something. And I could say something and everyone would say the same thing, but maybe mine was highlighted in a way that didn't land the way I wanted it to. I think the best thing that's happened in my life over the, the last like fifteen years, funny enough, is social media, even though I'm on the fence about it.

• 18:51Speaker 03

  You can say your. But yeah, now I actually get to be exactly who I am. And, you know, people can just like take me for who I am and then that's it. And if there is anything that I don't like that's written, which to be fair, the press have been like so lovely, you know, over the last, you know, few years for a while now. And I could just jump online and just like square that off straight away. Yeah. And also I put parameters, um, probably like, I would say maybe over eleven years ago, I decided that I wasn't going to read anything. So even on Instagram, I'll post and you know, you open the app and you're like, sort of see, you can see, you know, comments. I actually don't go through them because I've got this theory and I think that if you are given so much love and admiration, that's not too good for you either. You're so right.

• 19:35Speaker 03

  You're amazing, you're this. It's like, I actually, I show up and I go, I did the best that I can. And hopefully that's good enough. And I'm also like, I critique myself quite a lot. So. That's just my personality. So if I feel like I need to fix something, I I just will. But sitting there, having people's opinions about, you know, your character or how you look and stuff, reading that every day. It's just not good for you. And it was the best decision that I ever made.

• 20:02Fearne Cotton?

  So healthy.

• 20:03Speaker 03

  I've not, I don't read anything at all. And if I do, it's like by my choice, because I've maybe posted something, seen one of my friends. You know, and I might like comment, but I actually don't know.

• 20:13Fearne Cotton?

  So healthy. I love that. I mean, you have been brilliantly vocal more recently. But if we look at back in the day, and we all know, like, the print press back in the day was vile. It was so brutal. And they're pushing narratives, but a lot of it was blatant racism. That's what we're looking at here. It was racism and depicting you as something different, whether it was difficult or the narrative of being an angry black woman and things that are deeply disrespectful. And you were meant to just sit there and silently take that.

• 20:44Speaker 03

  Yeah, I was always just told that today's news will be tomorrow's shit paper. And so like I said, behind the scenes, people always told me to ignore what was being said. But then we would get in front of like the world and I just didn't really always feel like that it was like the same support, if that made sense. Um, and it was really difficult and I think I was extremely defensive. So I'd walk into most situations just thinking that no one liked me. And I think what people didn't realise was outside of you know, my workspace, I would, I was a teenager who had to go out and face other teenagers who then wanted to like, as they say, test my gangster because of all the things that they read. And so there was a lot of

• 21:24Speaker 03

  at times where, you know, I'd have to like lock myself in like toilets at, you know, different places because I could hear that people were saying things that maybe they had read. So it was a really, really hard time and, you know, but I feel like people weren't as educated and weren't aware as, you know, and I think looking back, I look at certain interviews and I definitely came in like, I'm gonna act like this doesn't bother me. And I think when you do that, it comes across as quite defensive and a bit aggy. And like I said, the best thing I ever did was go, actually, I'm just going to be myself. And as soon as I did that, I'm not joking, it was almost like, and obviously times have changed. There's a lot of work to do, obviously a lo- a long way to go.

• 22:07Speaker 03

  But yeah, I just feel like it was a completely different thing and, you know, I think that, you know, now having conversations like this are like extremely helpful because then you feel sort of like, acknowledge, you know, your, your, your voice and your experience and that's been really helpful too.

• 22:22Fearne Cotton?

  Um, it's amazing. I love it. And also, there's something that irks me massively about women in general, not having the space to be angry. Like, we're allowed to be fuming, livid. I'm often livid about things.

• 22:35Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 22:36Fearne Cotton?

  We're told, you know, that's not the done thing. Like, you need to contain that and, and, and show another emotion, not anger, not, it's not, it's not allowed. I mean, much actually like the Sugar Babes, when you started out, you weren't coming in like the Spice Girls or Atomic Kitten, all smiles. You were yourselves and you were teenagers who were incredibly talented. And it wasn't like, we're gonna be like stage school kids. You, you, you weren't that. And, and that's, I think, the thing that marked you differently to everybody else. But likewise, Jay, when you were on Traitors, you weren't sat there grinning your head off the whole time, and rightly so, because you had other contestants, namely Amanda,

• 23:15Fearne Cotton?

  who were really targeting you, which I'm imagining in that stressful situation, being filmed twenty four seven, feels pretty awful. So why would you be sat there smiling? But that's something that people felt they needed to comment on.

• 23:29Speaker 08

  And it was also just like, I was being called defensive a lot. And I was like, what am I supposed to do not sit here and defend myself? And I, I can have a temper. And then that was kind of like, well, so many people are gonna watch this and I don't want them to see that side of me. Do you know what I mean? And then that like made me super self-conscious because I, you know, I was at that table a lot of the time and a lot of the time I was sad. But a lot of the time I was actually livid. And I couldn't swear and I had to come up with a way to get my point across without, you know, being bullish about it. Which oftentimes I felt, you know, that kind of regard wasn't shown to me in the same way. But yeah, it was, it was hard work.

• 24:12Fearne Cotton?

  I thought you dealt with all of it impeccably well and also nor did anybody say about any of the men around that table. Why aren't they smiling all the time?

• 24:21Speaker 08

  Yeah.

• 24:22Fearne Cotton?

  They could sit there looking brooding and serious or just be themselves without a smile on their face. It's not commented on.

• 24:27Speaker 08

  Without being picked on. No, I literally say this to a lot of people that, you know, how do you deal with it? Because you're more quiet, you're more reserved. There's a lot to go through and I say, well, if I was a guy, I wouldn't be going through this. I wouldn't be put under a magnifying glass.

• 24:40Fearne Cotton?

  No, you wouldn't at all. I mean, also, having had your everyday life prior to entering Traitors. And then, you know, Traitors is a huge show. You've got millions of people watching. People are obsessed with it. Yeah. Me and my kids absolutely love it. But you've also got news outlets commenting on it. It becomes a real cultural zeitgeist thing that is in everybody's homes. How, I mean, I, I, I find this fascinating with anyone that's been on any TV show of that size. How you process everything. When you come out the other side, you've been in the bubble, you've been in that world. And then you've got to deal with, oh, this is what strangers I've never met are saying about me or think about me.

• 25:21Speaker 08

  It was just like the articles where they'd kind of unload all my basically life trauma, right? It's not something that I hide behind. I wear it like a shield. I'm very happy to talk about it. I think they're topics that need to be spoken about. But it's the way they phrase it, like, I'm keeping it a secret. And if anyone who knows me, I don't keep it like a secret. But then it's also people, you know, unexpectedly making TikToks about my ethnicity. It's like, why are we having a conversation about the fact I'm a, I'm a mixed race, a white Asian, like this? I have so many other facets that are so many, so much more interesting, like I do science, I love gaming, I love my smartie books.

• 26:02Speaker 08

  Let's talk about that. Like, it's just so much more interesting and we can have a conversation about which Pokemon I like the best. Rather than, you know, the fact I'm half white, half Asian.

• 26:11Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah. I think when people start to. Pull out things from your life that are your everyday experience, like you say, the things that you don't think about so much, or you don't feel like need to be at the forefront, but also when it's your your past and your history and things that you have every right to keep absolutely private, that's no one's property but yours. That's when I think the lines get really blurry because people assume, oh, I know, I know Jade, I've seen her on the telly, I, I, I know who she is, I know what she's about, and it's the, I think some of the time when, when there's that discord, we feel like, oh, people don't get me, they don't, they're not seeing me, that's the sort of discomfort. If they've made an assumption that is wrong

• 26:53Fearne Cotton?

  or feels jarring, it's because it's like, oh no, you don't, you're not seeing the real me, and, and actually, how can an audience truly see anyone on the TV and in the music industry, whatever area? Because we, we show a part of ourselves and we go home and there's a whole other version of ourselves.

• 27:12Speaker 08

  Exactly, and it's like, you know, I went in there to play a game, I, the only thing I thought about was the fact that I cried a lot, which is fine, I process my emotions there and then, and it's overwhelming. And I was like, God, like, what if people see me as this, like, really weak, like, vulnerable, young woman, because that's not who I am. And I was just so worried about how that was just gonna come across. But then, yeah, after some time, I was like, it is what it is.

• 27:37Fearne Cotton?

  And also, I mean, if I went on Traitors, I would be a wreck. There's no way I would get through that in one piece, it's so tense and stressful, the pressure you're put under.

• 27:48Speaker 08

  Yeah.

• 27:49Fearne Cotton?

  I defy anyone to go on that in, into that setting and not feel massive emotions. You'd have to be a robot.

• 27:55Speaker 08

  Yeah, but it's also, I guess, you're also competing with the fact that people point at the TV and go, it's so obvious. Right, you're doing a PhD, like, why don't you get it? And I'm like, well, I'm not doing a PhD in catching traitors.

• 28:07Fearne Cotton?

  No, and also, that's so easily said from home. It's much like when I watch The Master Singer and think, I could do that, no, I couldn't. Like, we, we, we all have great ideas about how we'd be on a TV show, it's all bollocks. Megan, I'm very keen to talk to you about your experience post Love Island, because it felt like a lot of the critique was particularly cruel and particularly personal. How did you deal with the fallout? That people were calling you all sorts of names and putting tags on you. How, how did you deal with that?

• 28:32Speaker 08

  It was, it was so bad, like.

• 28:34Speaker 02

  But the only good saving grace is I came out with a partner. And in that moment, I was like, I was twenty four, I was like, oh my god, this is so exciting. Um, and because I had him, I was like, oh, as long as I'm in love and he doesn't believe all these headlines. I did get briefed by someone from ITV and they was like, look, this headline is run, this has happened. There was a headline that my dad was so ashamed of me that he fled the country. And I was like, oh my goodness, even though he had come on, you know, they have the family day where your parents come on. Um. He'd come on to Love Island. So I was like, oh dear. And like on the front of the sun, it's like Muggy Meg and this, like Megan Seedy passes the stripper. I was like, oh, this is bad. But because I was in that bubble at the time with Wes, I was like, oh, okay, it's fine.

• 29:19Speaker 02

  And I think really it hit me maybe like a year after when that relationship broke down. The career wasn't so fast paced, I wasn't doing everything like something every day. I had time to process and I was like, oh god. I was actually like the most hated person, it felt like, in Britain for that. I don't know how long I was in there for, like eight weeks. Um, but in a way, in hindsight, I think it has taught me to not wanna be that most like likeable person that I'd always try to conform when I was younger. If I hung out with more boys, I'd be a bit more tomboy. If I hung out with a bit more like indie kids, I would be that person. If I hung out with girly girls, I'd be that person. I think really, Meg, you can't please everyone.

• 30:02Speaker 02

  You've got one time on this planet, so you're just gonna have to do you. I think people, they really couldn't get their head around that in some situations, I'm such an introvert, I'm such a kind, sensitive, little Pisces soul. And then in another breath, I'm like, no, if I fancy that man, I'm gonna go for what I want, I'm gonna get him. So I think that was hard for people to wrap their head around that women are multifaceted. God, yeah. We can do more than one thing. We can be shy in one situation, but be like sexual in this situation and go for what they want and be assertive. But I think people really struggled back then to get their head around that. So yeah, it was kind of tricky.

• 30:41Fearne Cotton?

  How did it impact your confidence? Because I think that's the one thing, no matter if people are in the public eye or not, when you've got, could be one individual who is giving you grief, or you know, somebody out there doesn't like you and they're trying to mess with your happiness. I think the first thing to get attacked is confidence, because you start to lose a sense of self. I certainly did. When I had tough times when either the press were writing horrible things about me, or when I was at Radio One, you know, you've got these constant stream of messages that you're looking through and you've got, you know, lovely ones and then there's like one awful one or a death threat, you know, really serious things that I'm sure some of us here have dealt with that awful, awful side of it. You start to

• 31:25Fearne Cotton?

  lose a sense of who you are because there's the the diluting of your personality. I I became as sort of beige as I could, like just be as middle of the road as possible. So I don't say anything that anyone can latch on to. Which is not who I am as a person at all. Um but also just confidence to walk into a room with other humans in it and be like, hey, how you doing? You know, I feel very confident in walking into a room now and excited to interact with other people. But at that point, I I was a hermit. I didn't want to go anywhere. I didn't want to see anybody. It's the confidence that goes and it can take a long time to get it back. How did it impact your confidence?

• 32:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, so like I say, at first, it didn't really affect me because I was in that bubble with the new partner. I was, my schedule was so busy. I didn't really have time to stop and process. But then when I did, it's like, it it does chip away because you're like almost walking on eggshells. You're like, I don't want to put a foot wrong because I'm getting come out from this angle, this angle. You just want to like, not hear anymore. Because how I say it to like a lot of my close friends or family, the average person who's not in the public eye. And yeah, obviously I signed up to do that show, but I didn't think. The scrutiny would be as intense as it was. Um, but the average person, they'll have their work colleagues, family and friends, their partners. And that's all that they really get judged by, or random trials if they have their profile set to public.

• 32:51Fearne Cotton?

  Yes.

• 32:51Speaker 02

  Whereas with me, it's like, I've got journalists, grown men, and like you said earlier, like a lot of the media, the headlines, they're so negative and then that fuels more trials. And it's like the next thing, they'll be like, be kind. It's like, you're running the nasty narrative to like incite all these trials.

• 33:09Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 33:09Speaker 02

  So it definitely did chip away at my confidence, but I think with age, taking a step back, I'm not. At first, when I came out, it's very competitive to be like, oh my god, I don't wanna be forgotten about. I need to post every day. I need to do this. And that wasn't me. Like, I'm not that girl. I love to just like walk my dog, be a bit of a geek, like do my own thing. So I think once I stepped away from that, I'm actually living life for me, not because I'm trying to be performative or keep up with what I should be doing because like certain managements have told me to do this. I'm just living my life. So. I think that's like rebuilt the confidence, not like conforming to what's expected of me or like ex Love Islander, for example.

• 33:51Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, it's so, it's so easy to walk down that path, I think, of of looking for that validation in that way. But like you say, you're only gonna get it from being you, doing life on your terms and your confidence then so he comes back because like one thing, my, I write about this in the book, one thing my friend Claire has said to me repeatedly, and it always sticks with me. It's quite a harsh way of saying it, but I think I needed a wake up call when she first said it was, it doesn't matter who, who's saying what about you, you'll be okay as long as you don't turn the gun on yourself. Cause that's what I would do. I would have however many people saying, oh, you're this or you're that or whatever. And then I'd go, yeah, I am. I, I, I am all, I'm an awful person.

• 34:31Fearne Cotton?

  And then all of a sudden I've nicked their narrative and, and put it on myself. As long as you don't do that, you're all right. You can feel upset, angry, like there's injustice. And then you can get on with it and, and, and move on with your day. So I think you're, you're doing it in, in the best possible way.

• 34:51Speaker 04

  The youth mental health crisis is growing and social media is a major driver. Kids are spending up to nine hours a day on screens, often unsupervised, and studies show a direct link to anxiety, depression, and even suicidal thoughts. That's where Gab comes in. Gab offers safer phones and watches for kids with no social media, tailored to every age, offering the right tech at the right time, or Tech in Steps. From GPS tracking-enabled watches for younger kids to phones with parent-enabled apps for teens, each device allows kids to more safely grow their independence. Visit gab.com/getgab and use code GETGAB for an exclusive offer.

• 35:32Speaker 04

  That's G A B B dot com forward slash get gab. Gab, Tech in Steps. Independence for them, peace of mind for parents.

• 35:42Speaker 09

  Hello, this is Susie Ruffel. And Maisie Adam. And together we host Big Kick Energy. Hey Mais, what is it? Only the best podcast ever. Yeah. A comedy, entertainment podcast with a focus on all things women's football, all things hilarious, all things friendship. It's a laugh is what it is, Ruffel. Yeah, and a fair bit of gossiping, too. Oh, and a lovely bit of gossip. Chow down on the gossip. Nom, nom, nom, nom, nom. You can listen wherever you get your podcasts. You just need to search Big Kick Energy. Grab a knife and fork and tuck in, baby.

• 36:15Fearne Cotton?

  Jade, how did it impact your confidence? You go back and integrate into your, into your life, doing your PhD. How, how did your confidence levels feel?

• 36:26Speaker 08

  I think by the time it was all being released, I kind of made my peace with everything that happened. And I was like, what's happened, has happened. But interestingly enough, like I used to go to conferences where I'd have to like present and also defend my work on some occasions. I used to find that terrifying because, you know, some, some occasions you get some men that will come up to you and say, did you really do this yourself?

• 36:48Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, that's nice.

• 36:49Speaker 08

  Yeah. Yeah, and then, but now, like, you know, I go to a conference and I'm just so much more relaxed. And like, you know, and it was really, like, the round table was were hard.

• 37:02Fearne Cotton?

  Terrifying.

• 37:03Speaker 08

  But if I can sit through that, what, twelve times?

• 37:06Fearne Cotton?

  Yes.

• 37:07Speaker 08

  I can go into a conference fine. So I've actually found it really empowering.

• 37:10Fearne Cotton?

  I love that. How brilliant. This is the plus side of all of this shit that we've been through. Is the resilience you build, it it's a given. You are gonna get more resilient. Do you feel like that, Keisha, over the years?

• 37:24Speaker 03

  Yeah, for sure. I I was thinking about it the other day, cause I was like, with everything that I've been through, would I be the person I am like today? Would I have learnt the lessons? Would I, you know, my, I was always quite like an, you know, empathetic person, but like, I'm way more now. The things that it's given me is is like a gift and I could have only have learnt it through those experiences. So, yeah, but also. I feel like now the big thing that I remind myself of is that, like, what people think is like of me is like actually none of my business. And I can't like go into people's brains and control the way they think, like, they have a right to to think what they think. Have their thoughts and like, that's okay. And that's been the biggest thing. I think I was reading in the book that there's like.

• 38:07Speaker 03

  So many, like, I think it's like millions of thoughts, thousands of thoughts that go through like the human brain. And imagine. Trying to control that on another human being, like, you just can't. So I think once I'm, I'm still, I haven't got it fully.

• 38:20Fearne Cotton?

  None of us have. We're we're working this out together.

• 38:23Speaker 03

  Working it out, working on it. But, you know, once that sort of, um, you know, once that started to click, I think I apply that to like most things. And I think, yeah, I just try to see like the the most positive side out of it, like what did I get from it? What was the lesson? And, yeah, I just like, you know, I celebrate that side of it. So.

• 38:41Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, that is the the best way to do it, the best way. Cause I think. You know, if we can look at the the positives that come from it and and and how you grow through really shitty times, or doesn't even have to be that heavier of an instance, but just people getting the wrong idea about you, or you know, meeting you with assumptions, like, you know, all of us will have to deal with that, that you turn up and people think they've got you nailed straight away, and actually it's quite fun proving people entirely wrong.

• 39:12Speaker 03

  And you know what as well, I will say that like your character will outlive any narrative, any false narrative. Like your character, your character, your character, like I always knew who I was, like my friends and my family. And that will always, and you know, you've got to take age into perspective, experiences and stuff like that, you're gonna make mistakes. You're not gonna do it right perfectly all the time, but as you mature and as you get older, like your real character is like constantly developing. And it will outlive any any negative nar- narrative, I was thinking from my own journey, you know.

• 39:40Fearne Cotton?

  It's so important. The key for me in all of this, and it's something that I think I've probably only properly landed on in the last two years. Is that for me to navigate any either just sort of random dislike on social media or people that I know, because you know, we all have, you know, butt heads with people or have fallouts or situations happening. The only way for me to navigate that without it completely ruining my confidence and my outlook and my general levels of happiness is to like myself. That is the only way, that there are no shortcuts to it, there's no

• 40:22Fearne Cotton?

  like five step trick that we wanna see on TikTok that means you can get through it. You've got to like yourself and that is fucking hard. You've got to forgive yourself from things in the past.

• 40:32Speaker 03

  That's hard.

• 40:32Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, because sorry, there's not a single person out there listening to this that hasn't fucked up at some point in their lives. We all have, we all like to pretend we haven't, we all have.

• 40:40Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 40:41Fearne Cotton?

  Forgive yourself in the past, you've got to be happy with how you are on any given day. A good day, a very average day, a really fucking shit day. You're on your period like I am today, you feel a bit fucking angry about everything, like on those days, you've still got to like yourself then. It's all of that stuff that I think. Really saves your bacon in those moments where you feel like the world's against you or one person's against you. It's something that I think is probably an everyday discipline. I don't suppose any of us can just go, yeah, I like myself and that's just there forever. You know, it's an every get up, you do it every day. But I'm interested to know where you're at at the moment. Megan, do you like yourself?

• 41:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, I feel like I'm about to be thirty two in like a few days. I feel like with age, it is getting so much better. I'm not being as performative for certain, like I said, friend groups that I used to be. And I'm just doing what makes me feel happy. Like, I'm not here and put on this planet to perform for others or do what they want me to do. But I think it's kind of puts pressure on you as society to be like, you should be happy every day. You should love yourself every day. Like you say, like if you're on your period, like you might feel a bit like insecure because you've got a bit of bloating. Or other days you'll be looking in the mirror and be like, oh my god, I am the shit. Like, you know what I mean? Like up and down, but um yeah, I think definitely with age, it does get much, much better.

• 42:05Fearne Cotton?

  Good. How about you, Keisha?

• 42:07Speaker 03

  Yeah, I really do. I'm so proud of myself. I think over the last two years especially, I took a stance against, you know, injustices and really stood up for myself in my personal life. And that's actually been the most proud I've been of myself than any of my accolades or anything like that. Yeah, I definitely, you know, I love the fact that I'm accountable. I love the fact that I'm self-reflective and that I, you know, I see where I still need work. Um, and yeah, those are all the things that, you know, that are important to me. And that the people around me, you know, have a lot of compliments that are outside of my achievements. Because obviously that's something you can get wrapped up in, but it's mostly about the person that I've become and who I'm becoming. So, yeah.

• 42:51Fearne Cotton?

  I love that. How about you, Jade?

• 42:53Speaker 08

  Um, I'd say that I'm still like, well, I've been an adult for like eight years now. So to sit here and say like, I'm really happy with myself, I'm not going to say that. I'd say compared to where I was this time last year, so much better in terms of evolution. But I think that's the thing, like a lot of it is giving yourself grace, like making the mistakes, being accountable for yourself. And then learning from that, so you don't have to do it again.

• 43:19Fearne Cotton?

  But that's exactly it, you know, we're all, we're all gonna fuck up again before we die. Like, there's, there's gonna be more of it. And like you say, it's, it's not about never making a mistake again. It's going, oh, I did that, and I probably won't do that again. And even if I do, I'll think about it and I probably won't do it after that, you know, it's giving ourselves that grace is so, so important. And also, the world supposedly doesn't like women that like themselves. Because the world needs us, I'm talking about the western world, needs us to buy shit. So if we don't like ourselves and we think, oh, I could, I could improve, I could be a better version of me. We're malleable and perfect to control and to get to look at certain things or do certain things that

• 44:04Fearne Cotton?

  the world wants us to do. And if we just go, yeah, I'm kind of good, I'm, I don't need to improve at all. You know, there's, I, I like the idea of self-development because it allows us the grace to mess up and do things differently. But improvement, I feel uncomfortable with. I don't think we need to improve. I don't, I don't. I think we're good as we are. We're, I'm as good as I can be today. And then maybe tomorrow I'll learn a big lesson and I'll, I'll grow a bit. But I think that whole self-improvement thing, throwing up women. It makes us hate ourselves. We constantly look around and go, oh, but blah blah looks like this, or blah blah's doing that, or

• 44:46Fearne Cotton?

  blah blah's able to cope with this and I, and I'm not. And it's like, what's that about? Why, we're, we're forced to compare ourselves to each other constantly, which I think makes it feel maybe unsafe to like ourselves. Like, it feels weird to sit here and go, yeah, I like, I like myself. Feel good about myself.

• 45:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, I feel like, is that, do you think, do you think that it's like a British thing as well?

• 45:07Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, yeah. I think Americans are much better at going, you're great, I'm great.

• 45:14Fearne Cotton?

  And we're all going, I'm not that great, I'm so sorry, you know, I apologize for everything I've ever done and said, you know. That's our mental attitude. It's, um.

• 45:21Speaker 02

  Don't you think it's a misogyny thing as well? Because it's women that compete against each other. Each other, not necessarily us. And I think as we get like more progressive, it's less. But from years and years ago, you would never get men sitting in a pub being like, oh, look at your beer belly, look at my beer belly. Who's got the bigger one? And like put each other down. Whereas women, even if they're friends, they'll be like slide digs. Like, oh, have you put on a bit of weight? Or oh, this like is, men have wanted us to have like some sort of competition. Whereas now, there's like dance classes I go to with Kaz, who's on my season of Love Island. We've done like a Moira Tyra tree and you see the beauty in women, even if they put themselves down like, oh, I'm not feeling great today. Or my hair's greasy. I look at that woman and think, oh my God, you're absolutely beautiful.

• 46:05Speaker 02

  And it's deeper than just her physical appearance. It's her aura, her energy and how she's like being kind. And I think that's the thing that's gone wrong in the like for years, we've been like pit against each other as women.

• 46:17Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 46:18Speaker 02

  And I think the more we like stick together, it's so cliche, but the more we stick together and like boost each other up, the happier we'll be ourselves as well.

• 46:25Fearne Cotton?

  I agree. The judgment on women from other women is immense. And it's something that I've thought about so much because on one hand, if we want to rebel against that, the obvious thing might be to go, well, I don't give a shit what I look like and I'm just gonna turn up whatever. And it's like, no, actually, I'm, I probably have been conditioned to some extent that I want to look nice and a certain way. And maybe that has come from the patriarchy, but I'm sure I'll change it anytime soon. I'm still gonna shave my armpits. Even if it's like hairy armpits are, you know, the most feminist stance, I, I don't want them. And I, and I think that is also okay. Rather than to judge every woman for, oh my God, look at, you know, Madonna. Why has she done so much work to her face? Age gracefully. Let her age how the hell she wants.

• 47:10Speaker 02

  I know. I actually, one time, um, one of my friends, I'm just gonna say Leanne from Little Mix, she uh had twins. And I saw her maybe like when the twins are like maybe a few weeks, maybe months old. And she just looked incredible. She was glowing, but from the inside out, just in like a really happy place. And it was her birthday. I remember I put a picture out and I was like, you know, wow, you know, just basically bigging her up is like, and that wasn't to put anyone down. It was just to say like, you look amazing.

• 47:39Speaker 03

  And then someone had done this like article where basically, you know, they felt like by me bigging her up, I was shaming all the other mums who couldn't bounce back or didn't bounce back. And I was like, even that within itself is so, and I didn't um respond to it at all. I'm glad that I'm doing it now, these years later, but I feel like even that was so negative. Because to big anyone up doesn't mean you're putting down anyone else. And actually, I think most mothers, if they were in a room and they saw someone snap back quickly, they would be like, how'd you do that? Or they were like, go up, they would big her up as well, because we all know that it's really difficult to keep in shape to, you know, we're like that with skin and hair, like, oh babe, how'd you get your hair to grow back all of that heat after the heat damage, whatever?

• 48:23Speaker 03

  And so it was just really interesting, you know, how that story was sort of like twisted in a quite menacing way. And I think that women also need to stop doing that, like a compliment is a compliment is a compliment. And if you don't aspire to that, and you're like, actually, I'm gonna keep my mummy tummy, like for for me personally, I had lost like maybe, I think thirty pounds, I would say, over the last two years. And the one thing that I actually don't want is I don't want like a six pack, but I love looking at Tiana Taylor's body. Like, I love that rock hard, but for me personally, that's not something that like I aspire to, I'm fine with like, the tummy that I have, like it's flat, it's all right, it's definitely not hers, but I wouldn't necessarily,

• 49:03Speaker 03

  like I big hers up if that makes sense. So that's another thing that we have to stop doing, like, just basically supporting each other and whatever that looks like, you know, one isn't better than the other. Whether someone wants to be more, and even me losing the thirty pounds, it's like, I just wasn't happy. I like a particular type of clothing, I wanted to fit in it, I didn't feel comfortable when I would put it on in my body. That is completely up to me. It's no one's business. But in this world, you know, you kind of get told almost in a way that if you were to say that or to celebrate that, you know, then then you're maybe not embracing like who you are. And I'm like, It's exhausting.

• 49:39Fearne Cotton?

  It's exhausting. And also, it's because there's so much focus on what women look like over anything else. So we look at. We go back to the example of Madonna, who I think is just a good example in many ways. When everybody's commenting on what she should or shouldn't be doing, who she should or shouldn't be dating, we're forgetting about her insanely amazing back catalogue. And how she changed the face of music. And and with a male equivalent, we give a fuck about what he's wearing or what he looks like. We're just going, oh my god, look how many stadiums he's sold out. Or look at, you know, the achievements and how many awards he's won. We're not scrutinising that person's face, hair or or clothing. We're near as much. And I think that's, that's the other thing is if we, this is the by-product of, I think, liking yourself.

• 50:22Fearne Cotton?

  Is that you don't feel the need to bring other people down or even comment on it. You just, you don't need to. You're just like, you do you, I'll do me over here. And that's, that's, that seems easy and peaceful and less stressful. I think that's the way to go about it. Would you say that throughout your journey of receiving any negative feedback? And it doesn't have to be due to being in the public eye, could be in your actual lives, that you've tried to change yourself in any way, Jade?

• 50:50Speaker 08

  I, like, the friends that I have, like, I always say to them, like, I need you to be honest with me. And it's really important that I have friends who are actually honest and don't just say things because they wanna put me down out of their own self-interest, right? Because unfortunately, there are people out there like that because they're jealous or whatever. I think I'm, I'm not the kind of person to kind of be like, I can't believe you said that. Like, I will always take what you said. Because it lets me reflect from a different angle and I find that really helpful because you only have your perspective. So when I have my friends and I value their opinions, I'll be like, basically, have I been an asshole?

• 51:25Fearne Cotton?

  Yep.

• 51:25Speaker 08

  Do you know what I mean? And it's not that I.

• 51:27Fearne Cotton?

  I wanna be told that.

• 51:27Speaker 08

  Yeah, I wanna be told if I've been an asshole. Like, that's, it's not a bad thing to ask. And it kind of just helps reaffirm. Not that you need the affirmation, but it's kind of like if you want to have room to know if you've done something wrong, then you know.

• 51:41Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 51:41Speaker 08

  Yeah.

• 51:42Fearne Cotton?

  I love that. I think that's, especially at your age, I'm not saying that in a patronising tone. But I don't think I, in, I would have at your age had. That idea about my friendship circle or life, but I am very much on the same page that now, you know, especially I keep referencing my friend Claire, but she will say the thing that I need rather than the thing I wanna hear.

• 52:02Speaker 08

  Yeah, and I think that's really important. Yeah, I think that's really important. And like when you're with social media and like, you know, AI-generated crap going on out there, like you just need people who will be around you to ground you. And I think that's really important because the people that you surround yourself with are the energy that you're gonna get.

• 52:19Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 52:19Speaker 08

  And if it's all just shit, then what's the point otherwise?

• 52:22Fearne Cotton?

  I absolutely agree.

• 52:26Speaker 04

  The youth mental health crisis is growing and social media is a major driver. Kids are spending up to nine hours a day on screens, often unsupervised, and studies show a direct link to anxiety, depression, and even suicidal thoughts. That's where Gab comes in. Gab offers safer phones and watches for kids with no social media, tailored to every age, offering the right tech at the right time, or Tech in Steps. From GPS-tracking-enabled watches for younger kids to phones with parent-enabled apps for teens, each device allows kids to more safely grow their independence. Visit gab.com/getgab and use code GETGAB for an exclusive offer.

• 53:07Speaker 04

  That's G A B B dot com forward slash get gab. Gab, Tech in Steps. Independence for them, peace of mind for parents.

• 53:17Speaker 07

  Help, I Sexed My Boss is the podcast where manners meets M A M. I'm William Hanson.

• 53:22Speaker 06

  I'm Jordan North.

• 53:23Speaker 07

  And together we take on the hilarious challenges of modern life.

• 53:26Speaker 06

  William's the arbiter of etiquette.

• 53:28Speaker 07

  And Jordan's the chaotic yin to my perfectly polished yang.

• 53:32Speaker 06

  So if you want laugh-out-loud stories and brutally honest moments, then you'll love Help, I Sexed My Boss.

• 53:38Speaker 07

  Watch and listen every Tuesday and Friday.

• 53:40Speaker 06

  On YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts.

• 53:43Speaker 07

  Just search Sexed.

• 53:44Speaker 06

  Be warned, it's a bit rude.

• 53:50Fearne Cotton?

  When I was, I'm trying to think of what age, probably the whole of my twenties, I could probably say. When I was on TV and I didn't quite know who the hell I was, because who does in their twenties? I mean, I don't even know, in my forties, but I certainly didn't know then. And I had a lot of feedback, whether it was from, you know, things I'd read in the papers or people would say things to me.

• 54:15Fearne Cotton?

  Or even TV execs would be like, could you be a bit more this or a bit less that? I would go, okay, today I'm gonna be a bit more like Zorri Ball. Or tomorrow, I'm gonna be a bit more like Cat Deeley, because they seem to be doing well. So I'm just gonna emulate them and hope for the best until I work out who the fuck I am. That felt safer than just being myself. Do either of you, let's start with you, Megan, have you ever had moments where you thought, if I'm just a bit more like that, then I'm safe and everyone will leave me alone?

• 54:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, and it's been so hard because I am such an introvert in certain situations. But then obviously with my job and like being, working as a sex worker, whether that's like webcam, stripping, all of that. There's a side that people wouldn't dare wanna do that, that would be the worst fear. But it's so, so it's hard and then people don't understand, like, what is your actual personality? It's like you can be both.

• 55:10Fearne Cotton?

  Yes.

• 55:11Speaker 02

  So I think when I first started stripping, I was petrified, never stepped foot in a strip club ever. Walked in there and I was just hungry for money. I was like, can I get a job? They was like, yeah, we can start tonight. I just picked the hottest dancer I thought, I thought whatever she does, I'm just gonna copy. And you do, you like emulate that person. I wanted that aura, I wanted that confidence and to believe that. And it is so cringe about fake it till you make it. But even with, in my darkest days when I've been unhappy, my mom would be like, look, just go out, go for a walk and just smile. Even if you don't feel happy, if you see an old lady, if you see someone, just smile. And by the end of, you've got to the walk, you feel like I've smiled at so many people. It ain't that bad. The sun's shining, I had a nice walk, I got fresh air. And that's the same as what I'd done with the stripper. I was like, literally shaking for my first dance.

• 55:56Speaker 02

  This guy probably wanted a refund. I was like, what on earth is this? But anyway, I like pretended to be like her and by the end of like a couple of dances, I was like, yeah, I've got this. So I think that you can do that in a healthy way to like take parts of people's character and like aura that you want. And then put it in your own way, if that makes sense.

• 56:15Fearne Cotton?

  Until you work out who you are, there's nothing wrong with it. Have there been any comments from people online, people in, journalists in the press, people in your life that have stuck? Because I see these things like, you know, when you walk through a meadow and you get those little balls of like from bracken and they just stick to your clothes and you can't bloody get them off. I have had comments that have stuck with me for years and it's taken a lot of work to either not take them seriously or completely like pull them out and remove them. If I give you example, an example, for instance, I remember being, I was about to do a Radio One show live and I was reading the paper and there was a TV reviewer who had written a review about a TV show I'd done, this is probably 20 years ago.

• 56:56Fearne Cotton?

  And he said, and this, you know, you remember this shit verbatim, it sticks with you. He, I had to do a bungee jump for this TV show and he said that the biggest shame of the show is that the bungee rope didn't snap. And I thought, oh God, I'm that unlikable that he had hoped that I would die at the end of that TV show. And yes, it's all said in jest, but I was about to fade up a mic and talk to five million people. And all of a sudden I was like, I don't want to be here. I feel mortified. I feel like there's something inherently wrong with me. This shit sticks to you. And now I can sit here and go, what grown man would write that about a young woman? You know, shame on him.

• 57:39Fearne Cotton?

  I, I'm not carrying that with any weight anymore. It just lives in my brain. Have any of you got that? Keisha?

• 57:47Speaker 03

  Oh my goodness. Yeah, I will always just go back to, I won't be like completely specific because I think that um, there's, there's so many different things that like, I'm still like quite like traumatized by. But I think a lot of it was just to do like with my character, assumptions being made uh just about me and my relationship with the girls in the group. Um, never being asked like, Keisha, what happened? Or how did you feel about that? Just like it being decided that no matter what, like I was never going to be like believed. And so I would just sit in that. So I think that generally that was what I kind of accepted. Like there's no point speaking up because who would believe me? Who would believe me?

• 58:32Speaker 03

  And that has been really, really hard, like a hard journey to kind of get over. But I'm also. A very faith based person. My background is like Christianity. So I think the one thing that I learnt through my faith is that, you know, not to come into agreement with, I think it's such a powerful thing. Like if someone says something about you and you'd know internally like that's not what God says about you. You know, you can sit with that. I refuse that. So you know how people say like calling back your energy or calling back or whatever. I had to literally be like, I rebuke that. Yeah. I'm not accepting that. That's not who I am. Uh, that's what you say, but that's not who I am.

• 59:13Speaker 03

  Like, for example, you mentioned the Masked Singer before and I was on it this year and I won and I was super excited about it. But to actually get up there, I got quite emotional when I was singing um, Colors of the Wind because, you know, I started remembering words that were said to me. You know, no one will ever wanna see you sing on stage. This was like people in circle who are, you know, who I was working with at the time. No one wants to see quote, you know, a black pop star singing. No one's gonna wanna hear you. No one's gonna, you're better as a songwriter behind the scenes and stuff. And it really broke me down. But even in that, I remember in the moment turning around and saying to that person, well, it's not what you say about me. It's what God says about me. And I think I did that in defiance, but I think there was a small part of me that believed that.

• 59:56Speaker 03

  Which is why you could probably only find maybe like five things outside of the show babes that I've ever done in twenty five years or something crazy like that. So to actually get up there, to actually win, to actually be the first black person to win in the UK. I was like, so like, wasn't expecting that in a million years. But I was thinking to myself, actually, they do wanna hear me sing, you know, they actually, fair enough, I was under the mothyma. But the point is, you know, my jammer quote on the second one, but for me, it was, it was more so every achievement that I have. You know, whether it's even just like sitting here today, it just actually shows that like my voice is important and that rejecting those narratives, rejecting those things that are, I feel like targeted at confident people because obviously there was a bit of jealousy there

• 1:00:41Speaker 03

  from, you know, those people that maybe have said those things to me. And so now that I've like rejected them, I'm literally just embracing the, the the truth, what I believe is to be. I love it. Reject. It's just, it's a strange, it's just an instant. I reject that. I really like that. I like that as a notion. I reject it.

• 1:00:58Fearne Cotton?

  It's not going anywhere, sorry. Sorry, I'm taking that while I'm running with it. How about you Jade, anything that has stuck with you, you don't have to be specific because like Keisha says, some of this shit, you know, it is fucking traumatic and it is awful and I nearly quit TV about a million times before I started Happy Place because I was like, can't do it anymore, too painful, don't like it, it's shit.

• 1:01:17Speaker 08

  Yeah, I think it's more like feelings or like it leaves a bad taste in my mouth. So like, you know, there was a lot of conversation around unconscious bias and the traitors and I was doing a Sky interview with Fraz and right at the end, one of the presenters directly asked Fraz, leaving me out of the question, do you think there's an influence of unconscious bias on the traitors? And I was just kind of sat there like, one, okay, fair enough, you've directed it to him, but also like, I have a say in this as well. And it was really hard because, you know, like, I grew up in a British country, I like identified as mixed

• 1:01:57Speaker 08

  and then like sometimes I feel like I have a voice, sometimes I feel like I don't have a voice because, you know, at the end of the day, I am half white, but I'm also half Asian. So like, I do have an opinion and it was just kind of like, okay. And Fraz, lovely, like, was just like, well Jade's here too, which was really good. But it was just the fact that like, not that I wanted to comment, it was just, do I not come across like I can speak on this as well? Because I am also half white. So it's just obviously complex, but yeah, that and you know, being asked to comment, you know, there are a lot of reserved and quiet women out there. Like, what would your advice to them be? And I'm like, why have I now become the spokesperson for reserved and quiet women? Let them do what they want. Stop judging them for being reserved and quiet.

• 1:02:40Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, why do we have to change?

• 1:02:41Speaker 08

  Yeah, leave them alone. Do you know what I mean? There's nothing wrong with that. If I want to sit there and just not say anything, leave me alone.

• 1:02:48Fearne Cotton?

  Well, this is the other thing for women is that we're constantly told we're too something. We're too much, we're too little, we're too quiet, we're too loud, we're too quirky, we're too basic, we're too everything. In someone's eyes, we're always too a thing. And that is a hurdle that we all need to get over to care less, but also like ourselves more. Is that something you felt, Meghan, that you've had that kind of? Commentary that you're too something.

• 1:03:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, especially given like how I came across on Love Island because I went for what I wanted. I was like called a man eater and this and all like. And then when I came out and like that relationship broke down, I was partying, I was packed to party and like I did look a bit messy, I won't lie.

• 1:03:35Fearne Cotton?

  But also, who gives a shit, like, have fun, go have fun.

• 1:03:39Speaker 02

  I was twenty four, like, let me live.

• 1:03:41Fearne Cotton?

  Yes.

• 1:03:41Speaker 02

  Um, so yeah, it's always too something, too like, yeah, too opinionated or then too sexual, too this. But going back to what you said about like, what's the worst thing? I think for me, it was like, because I had had that past in sex work, because I had been that party girl, it's like. Oh my god, imagine if that was your wife and I was ever gonna wanna marry you and I was ever gonna be such a terrible mum. And for ages, I, well, I'd go to interviews and they're like, do you want kids one day? Do you wanna get married? And I'd be like, no. Do that whole defensive thing. And it's only since I got my little puppy, like this shit, I'm like, no, actually, one day I would be a sick mum. Like, I do wanna settle down and like have a husband one day.

• 1:04:23Fearne Cotton?

  And you will.

• 1:04:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, but for ages, I just felt like, oh, okay, if you think that I'm not worthy of being a mum because of my past, I'm just gonna go that narrative. Don't want it anyway. I'm just gonna party and hang out with all my gay boys till I'm sixty. Fuck you up. But like, that's not actually how I feel in my heart. So I think, yeah, just like again, age has made me think, no, actually. Your opinions aren't gonna change what my life narrative is gonna be because you think that and you're trying to put me in one dimensional box.

• 1:04:51Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, I think that is, again, a key thing that we need to remember is to not become the thing that you're being told you are. Because I certainly did that. I would constantly go, well, I just am that. I am that. I am, I'm annoying. I'm annoying. I'm just gonna go with that. I'm a bit. And I would, and you hear yourself parroting it and you're like, why am I confirming something that I actually truly don't believe? I, I, I don't believe I am whatever anyone is saying. But it's, you have to have nerves of steel to rally against that stuff. And I'm so glad to hear you at that point, you're like, yeah, I'm not going with that narrative. I'm gonna. I'm deciding. My lovely mate Gock, who's one of my best mates, speak to him every damn day.

• 1:05:33Fearne Cotton?

  He texts me at seven AM every morning and he said something so game changing four days ago to me. And it has stuck with me in the best possible way, and it's so simple and it's the most obvious thing ever, but I love it. He said, Fern, you're the CEO of your happiness. Hmm. I thought, yeah, too fucking right. I I am. I'm I'm the one that gets to decide that, not anybody else. Doesn't matter if, you know, I've got people telling me I'm this or that, or having a go at me, or trying to mess with my happiness. I'm gonna decide how happy I am on any given day, and it might not be every day that I feel happy. Hmm. But if I I used to, I used to have this weird superstition, and and I'm not religious, but I believe in something.

• 1:06:16Fearne Cotton?

  But I used to have this superstition that if I allowed myself to be too happy, something bad would happen, trip me up and go, ah. You thought it was safe to be happy. Look what, someone's gonna, a bad comment would literally evaporate all my happiness. And I thought that's how the world worked, and now I don't. It's like, no, you can, you can give it a good go and you can try, but that's not up for debate. I will, I will decipher that. And I think that, again, is a key, key thing to remember, that we we don't take on other people's narratives. And that we choose how we feel about our lives and ourselves. And actually, fundamentally, we decide how likeable we are and how much it matters to us at the end of the day. Yeah, yeah.

• 1:06:59Speaker 08

  That's powerful.

• 1:07:00Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, it's fucking great. I'm like, I'm excited to have this chat. I am by no means at a point of completion with this, like, yes, and I don't care if I'm likeable or not. And I will never lose sleep over it again. I'm just so curious about how we start openly talking about it. And can live more peacefully with people not liking us and still like ourselves a hell of a lot. I think it's so, so important. And I'm so grateful to each of you today for being open and vulnerable. And honest about this subject. I think it's gonna be so, so helpful to people. Before we wrap up, I would love to ask each of you, where is your happy place? Jade, let's start with you.

• 1:07:47Speaker 08

  Oh. Honestly, it's gonna be so nutty. Honestly, at my desk, my boyfriend's sat next to me. We're playing games and then I'm just like smiling, laughing, crying at something stupid going on.

• 1:08:00Fearne Cotton?

  What, what games are we talking? What kind of gaming?

• 1:08:02Speaker 08

  Just like video games, like we were aliens trying to run like, like a, a gas station in America. And like, we're, we're probing people coming into the gas station. Like, it's rogue.

• 1:08:14Fearne Cotton?

  I love it.

• 1:08:14Speaker 08

  But I'm sat there crying. I don't think I've cried so much from laughter in such a long time. So I'd say that's my happy place.

• 1:08:20Fearne Cotton?

  I like niche and we've not had that answer before. I'm really here for that. We probably won't again. Keisha, what about you?

• 1:08:27Speaker 03

  Um, I would say my happy place is like a shared space. So I'm, I can't be happy unless like everyone around me is like, okay. So I feel like starting with that, I can be anywhere, just as long as like, I know that like mum's good. My nieces and nephews are good. My best friends are good, you know? Yeah. And then you could plot me on any island with sun and, and I'm good with some, with some food, you know, like a quick takeout. Like I'm a very simple girl, simple girl. Everyone around me needs to be happy and then I'll just get in where I fit in. Yeah.

• 1:08:59Fearne Cotton?

  I love that. How about you, Megan?

• 1:09:01Speaker 02

  Definitely sunshine. I'm copying that one. It's such a mood booster, don't you think? The sun. I love it. Living for the sun.

• 1:09:08Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:09:08Speaker 02

  Sun, good food, my gaze, good music. We're happy.

• 1:09:13Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:14Speaker 02

  Maybe a spicy marg. Spicy marg too.

• 1:09:16Fearne Cotton?

  That we're talking. That's very much my drink of happiness. I love it. But you're so right. Even just having the blossom on the trees at the moment is making me feel so good. Ladies, I think you are all utterly wonderful, brilliantly likeable, whether that matters or not. And I'm just very grateful to sit here with you today. So thank you.

• 1:09:34Speaker 03

  Thank you. Thanks for having us.

• 1:09:38Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, that is one of my favourite chats we've had on the podcast ever. And do you know why it is? Not only are they brilliant women, but I think when I started the podcast eight years ago, that is exactly the sort of feeling I hoped I would have during a chat, that we are creating a space at Happy Place for women and other humans, men, anyone, to just feel like they can be themselves, say exactly how they feel, speak their mind without judgement or assumption or critique. And it felt like that. It felt like we could all chat really openly and safely. And I loved it. I fucking loved it. I'm buzzing. I'm still buzzing about that chat.

• 1:10:23Fearne Cotton?

  I just bloody loved it. And I really hope that you did too, that you got something from it, that you might want to pass it on to a friend that you know is struggling with people pleasing, or send it to your mum, or I don't know, whoever you want to pass it on to. I hope it helps them too.

• 1:10:39Fearne Cotton?

  As I said, my book, Likeable, which very much inspired this chat, is out right now. And I would love to know what you make of it. You can have a chat with us about it over on our Instagram, at Happy Place Official. And it's also, self-indulgently, our Happy Place Book Club pick. So you can head to our Happy Place Book Club account, at Happy Place Book Club, to tell us what you're thinking about it too, or maybe your own thoughts and feelings around people pleasing. Just slide into our DMs. But in the meantime, a massive thanks again to Keisha, Megan and Jade, brilliant women. We love you. To the producer, Anushka Tate, at Happy Place Studios, and to you. You are very, very likeable.

• 1:11:50Speaker 04

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• 1:12:35Speaker 04

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• 1:12:41Speaker 09

  Hello, this is Susie Ruffel. And Maisie Adam. And together we host Big Kick Energy. Hey Mais, what is it? Only the best podcast ever. Yeah. A comedy entertainment podcast with a focus on all things women's football, all things hilarious, all things friendship. It's a laugh is what it is, Ruffel. Yeah, and a fair bit of gossiping too. Oh, and a lovely bit of gossip. Chow down on the gossip. Nom, nom, nom, nom, nom. You can listen wherever you get your podcasts, just need to search Big Kick Energy. Grab a knife and fork and tuck in, baby.