Laurie Santos: ON Teaching The Most Popular Class at Yale University

On this episode of On Purpose, I sat down with Laurie Santos. Laurie is most known for her Yale course “Psychology and the Good Life”. We discussed how our minds are sucky, and lie to us constantly. Laurie reminds us that external accolades will never bring long-term happiness, and that strong social connections are what we should be aiming for. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jay Shetty?

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• 1:29Jay Shetty?

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• 2:16Jay Shetty?

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• 3:10Speaker 01

  I'm hanging out with students. I live with them on campus. I live with them in their courtyard and I hang out with them directly. And I started just seeing how miserable college students were, you know, just the levels of depression, the levels of even things like suicidal ideation. And just like the general, like trying to fast forward their life, you know, you ask students how it's going, it's like, oh, I can't wait to get to the end of the week. I can't wait to get to the end of the semester. And I was like, they're, they're missing it, you know, this is the one time you're going to be at college with your friends.

• 3:40Jay Shetty?

  Hey, everyone. Welcome back to On Purpose, the number one health podcast in the world. Thanks to each and every one of you. I just wanted to say, I've been noticing that so many of you have been sharing the insights, the nuggets of wisdom on Instagram, on Twitter, on Facebook. And I'm so grateful. I love scanning through and seeing what you're noticing, what you're practicing, what you're experimenting with. So keep that going. And thank you all so much for the incredible reviews. I actually read through them personally and it warms my heart to see the incredible impact that some of my guests and some of my solo episodes have had in your life. So thank you so much for sharing those. Those are not unnoticed. I recognize each and every one of them as much as I can. And I wish I could personally write to each and every one of you and say thank you.

• 4:24Jay Shetty?

  So I'm saying that right now. And Today's guest is someone that I'm so excited to introduce to you. I've been following her for an extremely long time. And I'm currently this week at the West Creek Ranch at the Arthur M. Blank Family Foundation. And we're talking about the state of well being in America. And this lady is absolutely phenomenal. If you've not seen her work yet, you're in for a real treat. But she's a psychologist, an expert in human behavior. And she actually teaches the most popular class at Yale of all time, which is an incredible achievement in and of itself. And so you're going to get to be a part of that class today. So you can pretend that you're at Yale right now as you're listening,

• 5:06Jay Shetty?

  whether you're in your car, walking your dog, at the gym, or wherever else you are. And her name is Laurie Santos. Laurie, thank you for being here.

• 5:14Speaker 01

  Thanks so much for having me.

• 5:15Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, I heard you speak the other day and I was just like, my audience is going to love you and going to learn so much from you. I sat there and I felt so much reassurance and confidence that what I was sharing with my audience was true, based on your years of research, based on all your hard work. And today I can't wait for my audience to fall more in love with you and learn more about you, because I think the work that you're doing, and more importantly, the way you do it, is so graceful and so impactful. I just want to point this out to anyone. I've spent only a couple of days with Laurie and we've only exchanged a few moments. But the beautiful thing is when someone's teaching well being, you're hoping that they live it. And when I met Laurie, she's just really sweet, really graceful, really kind. And I love seeing that more than anything. But thank you for being here.

• 5:57Speaker 01

  Thanks so much. This is great.

• 5:58Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, so Laurie, tell me how you even came to this point? Because you've been at Yale for 16 years?

• 6:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, I've been teaching at Yale for 16 years. And most of the time I was just a professor at the front of the classroom. You know, I saw the students, but kind of from a distance. But just in the last two years, I switched. I became one of the heads of college at Yale. So it's worth, Yale's kind of a weird place. It's like Hogwarts. It's got the kind of colleges within a college. You know, you're Gryffindor, Slytherin kind of thing.

• 6:22Jay Shetty?

  Who are you?

• 6:23Speaker 01

  Well, we're Silman, which sounds like Slytherin, but totally no, no, no, no, no connection whatsoever. But that gave me a completely new perspective. I'm hanging out with students. I live with them on campus. I live with them in their courtyard and I hang out with them directly. And I started just seeing how miserable college students were. You know, just the levels of depression, the levels of even things like suicidal ideation. And just like the general, like trying to fast forward their life. You know, you ask students how it's going. It's like, oh, I can't wait to get to the end of the week. I can't wait to get to the end of the semester. And I was like, they're, they're missing it. You know, this is the one time you're going to be at college with your friends. And I was just really sad about it. And so one could be depressed by all those kind of sad statistics, but instead I was kind of inspired because I know all this work in positive psychology. I'm a practicing psychology professor and I'm like, there are answers

• 7:08Speaker 01

  here. You can do better. And so I just decided to teach students all these insights. I'm like, let me just develop a totally new course for Yale kids where I teach them all the stuff you've been teaching your podcast listeners, right? Like just how to do a little bit better, some of these misconceptions about happiness and the practices you can put into your life to do better. And so I put the course together. You know, it was a completely new class. I didn't know what was going to happen. I figured, you know, 30 or 40 kids would take it. I was completely shocked when around 1,200 students at Yale wanted to take it. And this is one out of every four students at Yale who wanted to be in this classroom and learn.

• 7:42Jay Shetty?

  That's insane. How many people is that?

• 7:44Speaker 01

  It's around 1,200, which didn't really fit in any classroom. You know, most classrooms like 100 people. So we were off by an order of magnitude. We ended up at first teaching the class in a church, which I thought was really beautiful and kind of telling. And then we moved to a concert hall, which I think has different symbolism. But we eventually found a place to fit everybody. And then, you know, the class went through. But one feature of the class that I think was important, and a little bit different from a typical college class, is in addition to hearing about all this scientific work, you know, all the studies on happiness, we also forced students to practice those habits. Like just like in the syllabus, you'd have a quiz every week. In the syllabus, every week you'd meditate once a week, or you'd exercise or sleep more. Like all these practices, science tells us

• 8:25Speaker 01

  matter a lot. We prescribed those to students who had to do them. And they were in this course where 1,200 of their peers were doing the same thing. You know, so you'd kind of feel like a loser on exercise week if you didn't get up and do your cardio. And so it was this wonderful social support system for students. So yeah, so that's the story of the class. I didn't expect it to go crazy. But you know, as you've seen and all your listeners know, there's a real hunger for this stuff. People feel like they're not flourishing enough and they really want some answers.

• 8:52Jay Shetty?

  Absolutely. And I love that you were able to create this yourself. I know you were saying that you estimated that 30 or 40 people would do it. Well, that was your idea. And then you have 1,200 people doing it, which is amazing, just to show how much demand there is. Tell me about what your college experience was like when you were at college yourself. Were you one of those students who struggled with optimism? Or have you always been this way?

• 9:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think, I mean, my college experience was so different than the current experience of so many of my students. I think, you know, I had the sense that I worked hard in high school, but once I got to college, I'm like, now's the time to reap the benefits. You know, I've kind of hit the finish line, like, let me soak in all the good stuff. And I had, you know, a tight friend group and did the things I loved. I wasn't overwhelmed. I had lots of time free. And this is exactly the opposite of what I'm seeing in my students. I'm seeing these students who are just overwhelmed by all their commitments they have. They're completely time famished. They don't necessarily have a strong friend group because they haven't taken time to develop that. They don't put time into it. They're just kind of too busy. And they seem to be really lonely and just kind of, you know, trying to get through things to get through them and kind of triaging this wonderful experience. So, yeah, my experience is completely different.

• 10:00Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, absolutely. And one of the things I know you said about this course, tell us the name again.

• 10:05Speaker 01

  The course is called Psychology and the Good Life, which we kind of, we called it that to sort of sound a little sexy. We want it to pop from.

• 10:11Jay Shetty?

  And it worked.

• 10:11Speaker 01

  And it worked, yeah.

• 10:12Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, and it worked.

• 10:13Speaker 01

  Maybe too well.

• 10:13Jay Shetty?

  What are the other classes? What are the other classes?

• 10:15Speaker 01

  You know, like Intro to Psychology, or, you know, they sound kind of boring. So I think students saw the good life and they're like, oh, this is the kind of thing.

• 10:23Jay Shetty?

  And for anyone, you won't get, if you're watching this, then you'll be able to see Laurie, but if you're not and you're just listening, Laurie also drops in a lot of Drake references and Treat Yourself references and all these other things. So.

• 10:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, we, the class was filled with a lot of memes. Actually, that was a really fun thing that happened in the class was because so many students were taking it, the class and the content of the class really took over the school's kind of culture, right? So it took over the school's meme page. Yeah, like, imagine like most schools has a kind of meme page. And so all the memes for the whole semester were about things like gratitude and taking time off and meditation. And it was like, you know, we went from like the normal memes to full wholesome memes all the time, which is fantastic.

• 11:06Jay Shetty?

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• 11:49Jay Shetty?

  That's indeed.com/podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Need to hire? This is a job for Indeed sponsored jobs. This episode is brought to you by Mazda. The best habits are the ones we hardly notice, the ones that quietly shape the way we move through life, giving us the confidence to focus on what really matters. That's Mazda's approach to safety. Every Mazda is designed with proactive safety features that help keep you more aware, more connected and more engaged with your drive, so you can stay present behind the wheel. That commitment has earned Mazda recognition as Consumer Reports' safest new car brand. And as of July 2026, Mazda has won more 2026 IIHS Top Safety Pick Plus awards than any other car brand.

• 12:34Jay Shetty?

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• 13:55Jay Shetty?

  Let's dive deeply into some of those practices that you were teaching, both from a science perspective and a practical perspective. And I love both and I try and do the same whenever I'm doing the podcast because I love knowing, and I was saying this to you yesterday, when I lived as a monk and I was studying spiritual texts that were 5,000 years old, all I ever did was sit down with them and then look at behavioral science and try and find the parallels. And I love seeing that because there's a beautiful statement from Martin Luther King where he said, "If you want a new idea, read an old book." And I love that statement because that's what I found, that so many of these ideas that are now becoming more popular are resurfacing, are actually have been a part of the happiness of society for thousands of years in pockets that have just got smaller and smaller.

• 14:40Jay Shetty?

  So I'd love to hear from you, tell me about each of those, but let's start with the science and then switch to the practical, how you were able to actually get them practicing and exercising all these things.

• 14:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, one of the biggest pieces of science that we teach students at the start is that our minds are kind of sucky, like they kind of lie to us a lot of the time, which is a weird thing to realize that your mind might be giving you intuitions that are incorrect. But you know, if you've been on social media, you've seen this, like probably some of your guests have seen the Laurel Yanni audio track or the dress which looks different.

• 15:09Jay Shetty?

  The blue and white dress.

• 15:09Speaker 01

  Blue and white dress, yeah.

• 15:10Jay Shetty?

  Blue, gold and white.

• 15:11Speaker 01

  So we see these visual illusions, which means our mind is telling us the wrong visual information. Our mind also tells us the wrong motivational information. It causes us to seek out stuff that we think is going to make us really happy and it doesn't work in the way we think. Think salary, right? You know, if you're living below the poverty line, yes, it's definitely the case that if you improve your income, you're going to feel a little bit better, you're going to have less stress and so on. But for most folks who have a roof over their head, you know, a reasonable middle-class job, just getting that Christmas bonus isn't going to work. That's not what our mind tells us, we seek out more salary, more money, more material goods, but those things just don't work. My college students, a big thing I see is they are seeking out grades. You know, they think the perfect grade, which gives them the perfect job, like that's the way to well-being in life. But it turns out the science suggests there is a correlation between grades and happiness,

• 15:56Speaker 01

  but it's a negative correlation. What does that mean? That means as your grades go up, you're more and more likely to be less happy. It's not what we think. But it's what the data suggests. So we're going about it all wrong. The next thing I teach is that this is where you need the science. Because if our intuitions are wrong, who do we believe? We can go to the ancient thinkers and we can go to the behavioral science. And the good news is, as you said, those link up way more than we expect. What seems to matter scientifically for well being? The top thing is social connection. Like you can pull out any happy person and you'll find that those folks tend to have lots of social connections and they just tend to spend lots of time with people. This is the thing that's tragic for me with my Yale students. Because what's the opportunity cost when you're focusing on grades? You don't have time to hang out with anyone. You don't have time to make friends.

• 16:41Speaker 01

  What's your opportunity cost if you care about salary and you're putting in tons of hours at work? You don't see your family. You don't get to hang out with your pals. So I think that's a huge one.

• 16:49Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, let's dive, let's dive into some of these because I think they're fascinating. So I love that point you're making about how what we expect to make us happy doesn't actually work. And there's that fantastic statement from Jim Carrey where he said that we should, I wish that everyone would become rich, famous and get everything they ever wanted, just to realize it's not the point. And it's fascinating that we actually trick our minds. So in the Vedic teachings, that was called the four defects of the mind. And there were four defects that were explained to show how everything from visual to mental stimulus can actually drive us wrong. So you specifically said there that actually we believe that an increase in wealth, despite the poverty line example you gave, an increase in wealth actually doesn't correlate.

• 17:33Jay Shetty?

  Is there a space that does correlate with a certain amount of happiness? Is there a exact number or salary per year or anything that does correlate?

• 17:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, it gets really tricky, but there's some numbers that are floating around out there. Actually, one study by Danny Kahneman and Angus Deaton, two different Nobel Prize winning economists. So they should get it right. They grabbed all these different well being measures, how stressed you were, how happy you were and so on. And they tried to plot that against your income. And what they find, at least in the US, is that lower incomes, so if you're earning $10,000 or something like that, if you get more money, you'll increase on all those well being measures. So you'll be less stressed, you'll be happier and so on. But in the US, they find that that bump up for salary drops off. It kind of flatlines at a certain point. And the flatlined is at around 75K in the US right now. What does that mean? That means if you're earning $75,000 right now in the US, even if I quadruple your salary,

• 18:23Speaker 01

  you're not going to see one tiny increase in your happiness levels, whether it be in terms of your stress, your positive emotion, and so on. Now, this is not what we think. I bet there's folks who are earning 75K out there who play the lottery, thinking, you know, if I could only get 16 million, I'd be happier. And that's just wrong.

• 18:37Jay Shetty?

  Wow, amazing. Okay, and then the other one was the grades one, which fascinated me even more because is that more linked to ambition and success and achievement? Or is it specifically linked to grades?

• 18:47Speaker 01

  I think, folks, this is one that folks haven't dug as deep into. It's really linked to grades. It seems like grades, higher grades are correlated with lower well-being, also correlated with lower optimism levels and lower self-esteem. Again, not what we think, but that's what the data suggests. The causal reason for that one is tricky. I think we have less data. But my guess is, again, it's based on opportunity costs. You know, if you're freaking out about your grades, you're not hanging out with your friends. You're not taking time to just be and be present. You're focused on this external reward that even once you get it, is going to be, it's going to go away. You're not focused at all on the journey. And so focusing on grades is at a cost of focusing on all the good stuff that really does matter.

• 19:24Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, especially, I think, when you could also be working hard for a grade that you don't even care about. I feel like if there's more meaning from, from anything I've seen. I remember I was reading The Upside of Stress by Kelly McGonigal, and she was talking about how actually, when we're doing something meaningful, we can take on more stress.

• 19:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:42Jay Shetty?

  And we can deal with more pain when we feel connected or a mission or meaning. And so I feel like sometimes grades don't make us happy when they are. And I loved what you pointed out there about the journey. And, and that's what I've seen in my life as well is that I get these beautiful moments. And I know you've had them too in, in your work of like getting on to the Today Show or being interviewed by Ellen DeGeneres or any of those things that have happened for me. And, and I'm always saying to people like, no, but it's the journey that I'm in love with. And those are beautiful, almost mile, what am I calling, what are they called? Milestones. They're beautiful milestones along the journey, but they just pinpoint the external journey. But the internal journey of waking up every day and doing what I love is far more fascinating.

• 20:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I think this is what I see in the students all the time. I think the students who are studying these things because they want to learn more, right? They want to grow in their understanding. They have some purpose in doing it. You know, they want to be a doctor or something like that. Those are the students who don't fall prey to this kind of thing. The students who are just obsessed with the A because it has to be a A.

• 20:39Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 20:40Speaker 01

  They get there and they get the A and they immediately get anxious for the next step because you know, now I've gotten strays for like three semesters, you know, now it's going to be four next. And so I think we put in these kinds of accolades like the, the, the idea that they're going to just make us happy like for all time, right? We think these accolades are just going to bring us the wellbeing we've been craving. But when we put all our eggs in that kind of external reward basket and we get there and we're like, okay, now what? It's just on to the next thing.

• 21:06Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 21:06Speaker 01

  You have to pay attention to the journey. There has to be some purpose there.

• 21:09Jay Shetty?

  I love that. And, and I think that's so indicative of just, it's okay to get good grades. It's good to get good grades, but with the intent of you're getting them in something meaningful, that's purposeful to you, that's useful, and not believing that the grade in and of itself will provide you happiness.

• 21:24Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 21:24Jay Shetty?

  So I love that.

• 21:24Speaker 01

  Yeah. In fact, the grades, if you just focus on the grades in and of themselves, then you kind of get off track. It's not about learning anymore. It's about the grade. So what does that do? There's research suggesting kids who are focused on grades are more likely to cheat. Why? Because they don't care about learning it. They just want to get a grade. Kids who are more focused on grades don't like the learning as much, right? Because the learning is kind of scary, right? It's this outcome that could make or break your opinion of yourself, right? And kids who are focused on grades actually end up hating learning over time. So the kids with the best grades sometimes have the least enjoyment of school. So the kids who are doing the best like school the least, which doesn't make any sense, but.

• 21:59Jay Shetty?

  No, absolutely. That's crazy. And you brought about this point of social connection, which, which I really appreciate and I totally see the value in. The biggest challenge I see today and at moments in my life, which I'm very aware of as well, is that you can be surrounded by people and still feel lonely. And I think one of the people that made us most aware of that was Robin Williams. When, when Robin Williams passed away, he spoke so often about, and he was just there, hidden in messages that we didn't notice until he wasn't here with us anymore. But this message around how you could actually be around lots of people and still feel lonely.

• 22:39Jay Shetty?

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• 23:23Jay Shetty?

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• 24:03Speaker 04

  What would happen if I stopped doing it? You're stalled, you're freezing there, that's what.

• 24:07Speaker 03

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• 24:10Speaker 04

  I'm not the first then.

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• 24:18Jay Shetty?

  Tell me, tell us about what true social connection is, because I think sometimes we mistake it for being at the coolest party or being out with everyone at the beach. And I don't think that's what you're trying to say.

• 24:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think I think we mess up social connection all the time. You know, I see this so tragically just in my own college at Yale where now walk into the dining hall and students will be, you know, quote unquote, connecting. They'll all be on their phones, you know, scrolling through likes and texting someone, but they have these, you know, big Bose headphones on and they're not connecting with the other humans that are there with them. Like, real social connection is about like, real connection. It's talking to like, people live in the flesh, or at least people in real time, like, you know, talking to your family on FaceTime or something like that. And I think it's not about being around lots of people, it's like, deeply connecting with other folks. Another spot where our mind lies to us is we think that it'd be more fun to kind of connect really shallowly. You know, go to the party and just like, you know, talk about the weather, talk about something stupid.

• 25:12Speaker 01

  But the research suggests that like, actually having these deep, meaningful conversations, ones where you're vulnerable, those are the ones that really increase wellbeing. So a conversation of like, oh, you know, what happened on Netflix last night? We predict that that will feel more comfortable, we'll enjoy it more. But a conversation where you're like, hey, when's the last time you cried? Or, you know, what's something that you feel really guilty about in your life? Or what's a thing that like, you don't admit to people, but you're really grateful for? Like, those aren't the conversation starters we use at the beach party, but we should be, because those are the ones that both make us feel better, make us feel more connected, and drive the kind of deep friendships that we really need.

• 25:46Jay Shetty?

  I love that. That is such practical advice, and I think it's so powerful, because when I first started making videos, my belief was that people had meaningful conversations, but not often enough, and in very small circles. And my hypothesis was, if I could make videos that would spark a conversation and give people thought-provoking discussions to have around meaningful life, then we could test whether people actually cared. And what I shared yesterday showed that people do, people do want to have meaningful conversations. And it does feel, and I know you addressed this really well, and I'm glad you did that, in the beginning, a lot of your students were like, oh, that's cheesy, or that's cliche, or that's so, what was the other word you used?

• 26:31Speaker 01

  Awkward. Emo, emo.

• 26:32Jay Shetty?

  Emo, yeah, right. Like, that's so emo, or that's so awkward, and, oh, that's like, that's soft stuff. And how have you seen that change? Tell me about some of those stories in which you saw people say that, but actually you saw these transformations. Because I think what you're encouraging people to do, and you're so right, we think talking about that show, or that sports game. Is where that social connection comes from, but you're totally right. It's totally beyond that. So give us some of those examples.

• 26:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, the sad thing is there are not lots of examples where people get it. And I think that comes from a really dumb feature of our mind, which is like, our mind is biased, but even knowing about those biases doesn't make them go away. And so my favorite recent example, you know, we're here at this wonderful ranch at the Art of the Bank Foundation that's funding this wonderful happiness summit. And they have a lot of these exercises that are evidence based. And last night at dinner, they gave us these deep conversation cards, like at dinner, have these deep conversations. And a whole room of experts, some of whom know this data really well, were like, ah, this is awkward. Like, do we really have to do this? And then the person was like, no, you really have to do it. And then we were talking about things, you know, hard questions like, you know, who are you closer with, your mother or your father?

• 27:40Speaker 01

  Or if you had one thing you regret about dealing with your family, what would that be like? You know, I'm talking with these other scientists about those deep questions. And even I had the intuition of like, this is going to be weird. I don't want to talk with these folks. But by the end, we were literally hugging and high fiving and it just kind of came together. And so I think this is a hard thing, even for folks who listen to your podcast and have been learning all these insights. It's like, even if you know the insights, sometimes they still don't start feeling intuitive. You still have to kind of like, no, I know this doesn't feel right, but like, I'm going to do it anyway. And I think there can be really power to that. Once you understand the deep wisdom, once you understand the ancient stuff and the behavioral science, that gives you clues about what to do. It doesn't always feel intuitive, but as you do it more and more, you're like, oh, this is going to work.

• 28:25Speaker 01

  This is going to feel good.

• 28:26Jay Shetty?

  Absolutely. And you were telling me that some of the students actually, after being grateful or after doing the exercises that you set out, actually had moments where they did realize the value.

• 28:36Speaker 01

  They had the insight, yeah. I mean, it's always in the context of like, I didn't believe you, but I did it anyway and it worked. One of my favorite ones, another thing we prescribe are these healthy practices, simple things like sleep, which we know can improve mental health. And I had one student in my college who was, you know, it was midterm season, which is a time when no students are sleeping. They're all kind of staying up and studying. And he said, you know, like Professor Santos, this year, for the first time, I decided I was going to follow your advice and I was just going to get eight hours of sleep for every midterm. And the whole time I was just completely freaked out that I was not going to study enough. I get the best grades this semester that I've ever gotten.

• 29:09Jay Shetty?

  Oh, wow.

• 29:10Speaker 01

  And I was like, well, you're gonna do it for the finals? And he's like, well, maybe. So it doesn't always translate, but I think, yeah, I mean, I think people get these insights where you start realizing, you know, the old way wasn't working, right? And so you start doing, you're like, wait, this feels better.

• 29:22Jay Shetty?

  Yes. And I think it's so important that when we do have that moment, we write down what those patterns are. Because I remember when I was at college, university, as we call it in England, every year when I do well, and then it would get to the next year, and I'd be like, how did I get do well last year? And I'd, and then I'd be trying to figure out what I did last year that worked well. And then after a while, I just started to write things down. And so I know that I'm most impactful between 10 a.m. to 3 p.m. And that's when I do most of my creative work in the day. I know things like I don't like revising or studying late at night, because that actually gives me anxiety and stress and pressure. And so I barely work at night in a, in a creative way or a diligent way. I also know that I like more breaks now.

• 30:06Jay Shetty?

  And one of my favorite things that I'm practicing a lot right now is single tasking is, I don't like doing multiple different activities in the same day. I'd rather have a day where all I do is record podcasts, and then have another day is all I do is write scripts, than live a life of doing all of it at the same time. And I see when I do mix it too much, because my life gets crazy, I start to see myself becoming less effective, less creative, less productive. And, and so for me, I think that's such a valuable point. Tell me about the study you talked about when students were on the train, sorry, people on the train and talking to strangers. I thought that was fascinating.

• 30:38Speaker 01

  And another spot, another spot where we get things wrong is like, we just don't think that talking to people will feel good. I think that's especially true in the modern day, especially true in cities, right? I have trouble like, you know, striking up a conversation with somebody on the train and so on. But the data suggests I'm going about it all wrong. Some lovely work by the psychologist Nick Epley, where he did this crazy study. He just walked up to people on the L train in Chicago who are commuting to work, said, you want to be in a study? He offered them a $10 Starbucks gift card, which turns out is the engine of all of scientific research, because people say, yes, I want to get this $10 Starbucks gift card. He said, great, you can have the $10 Starbucks gift card, but for the rest of the train ride, you have to pick a random stranger and talk to them. And don't, don't just talk, like, do that exercise, really trying to make a social connection. That was one group.

• 31:21Speaker 01

  The other group just was told, you know, be silent on the train, don't talk to anybody. Or a kind of control group were just told, do whatever you want. He always had people predict. And so people predict probably what a lot of your listeners are predicting when you think about being on some commuter train and picking a complete stranger and just walking up to them and trying to connect really deeply.

• 31:37Jay Shetty?

  Awkward.

• 31:38Speaker 01

  Awkward, emo, like, this is gonna suck, right? And people actually predict their positivity and they think their positivity is gonna drop, like, pretty drastically. That's what they predict, but what really happens is just the opposite. It's the solitude condition where you're not talking to anybody. That's what makes you feel yucky. The connection condition boosts people's positivity for long ranges. The other thing he finds is like, that's true for introverts and extroverts too. The only difference between introverts and extroverts is that introverts overpredict it's gonna feel really awful, but they get the same basic benefit when they actually engage in connection.

• 32:12Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, that's insane.

• 32:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:13Jay Shetty?

  And I'm recommending, everyone listening right now, I want you to try it out.

• 32:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, they have to take their headphones out on the train right now and just like, pause, pause the podcast, talk to somebody for five minutes and then see.

• 32:23Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, and make sure you come back to the podcast.

• 32:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:25Jay Shetty?

  But yeah, no, like, literally, just try it out, whether you're on the train or whether you're walking down the street or whatever it is, just try and do that more. If you're at a coffee shop and there's other people there and you're alone and they're alone, give it a go.

• 32:36Speaker 01

  And I know, I mean, I know what your listeners are thinking, because I thought the same thing when I heard this study, like, maybe for other people, but not for me. And this is, I think this is the thing I still struggle with, you know, as a person that teaches, you know, the happy class at Yale, you know, these intuitions don't come easy for me, too. I remember with this particular study, a very embarrassing thing. So I was on a flight to California, you know, like, long six-hour flight. And I'm not taking my own advice, I hadn't actually struck it up a conversation with the person who's sitting next to me. And I get an email from one of my former students, who was saying that, you know, she, like, was trying to follow the advice and she's doing this more. And she was on a flight where she started talking to the person next to her. It was a really long flight and they had this amazing conversation. And at the end of the flight, the guy who was sitting next to her was like, you know,

• 33:20Speaker 01

  This was the first time for me, the first time I talked to somebody, but I took this class by Laurie Santos and you know, they taught, and she taught me to talk to someone and it totally worked. And she was like, "Thank you so much. I just thought it'd be cool that you know that, you know, people are spreading this message and talking to people on the plane." And here I'm sitting with my laptop and I looked at the guy next to me and I was like, "All right."

• 33:37Jay Shetty?

  And you did it?

• 33:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, I finally talked to him.

• 33:40Jay Shetty?

  How did it go?

• 33:40Speaker 01

  It went really well and I felt much better afterwards. But yeah, I think it's important to realize that if you're hearing these things and you're like, "Ah, that's not me," that's just the way minds work. Like, we might not get the quick intuition that it works. You have to try it, but then, once you try it, you can reap all these benefits.

• 33:56Jay Shetty?

  And where is the space, because I know you speak about this too, where is the space for personal time? Because I know that I'm someone who, because my world is so much of giving and interacting and communicating, and even though I'm a self-admitted introvert, which no one would probably ever agree with who knows me, but I find myself far more at the corners and edges of rooms. I find myself in a more one-to-one, smaller, deep, meaningful group. I barely speak up in a group unless I'm asked to or referred to. I feel very comfortable on stage, but I feel that's a very different, different part of being an introvert. So for me as well, like, where is the room and space in our

• 34:36Jay Shetty?

  lives to have decompression time, to have time to refuel, to have time to gain energy from being silent and alone, which I take so much personal pleasure in?

• 34:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:47Jay Shetty?

  And, and personal kind of sacred space in. Tell us about the studies and research that you found around that and how you encourage the students to do that too.

• 34:54Speaker 01

  Yeah. So, so this gets to another topic that's big in the field of positive psychology research right now, which is the phenomenon of time affluence, which is just having time for exactly the kind of thing you're talking about. It's not the objective amount of free time you have in your life, but it's the amount of free time you perceive yourself having, which can be a little bit different, right? That amount of free time, it turns out, goes a long way for our mental health. In part because we can be by ourselves and recharge. We can take time to be present. We can take time for serendipity where you're walking down the street and maybe you have a conversation with someone or not. And the research suggests that people who prioritize getting a little bit more of that time affluence, feeling wealthy in time, like that can go a long way for improving your happiness. Turns out, people who focus on becoming wealthy in time are happier than people

• 35:39Speaker 01

  who focus on becoming wealthy in money. Again, a thing that we mispredict, but it can be really powerful. And this is something I see my college students going wrong all the time, right? They think that the way to a happy life is to like fill it, like meeting with friends and I'm going to run to my extracurricular, then I'm going to switch to the gym, and then I'm going to study. And it's like, you look at their GCal and it's like it bled all over itself. It's just a sea of red. And you think like, can I just open this up a little bit? Like, what would it look like to have, you know, a free hour every day? You know, just to kind of have space to breathe and space to be.

• 36:09Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, absolutely. And I love what you said about changing our perception because it's not objectively around how much time we have. And I always joke, like, you know, Beyonce and Bill Gates also have 24 hours in a day. And, and it's, you know, if you have that, how do you change your perception of how much time you have? Because I feel the world, we're all time poor. The most common thing we hear from our friends and family is, I don't have time. Probably the most common thing we say to people is, I don't have time.

• 36:39Speaker 01

  People ask, how are you? You're like, busy.

• 36:40Jay Shetty?

  Busy, right? And I started changing. One thing I started to do last year, because I started to realize that I was using that word a lot, and I started switching the word busy for productive for my mental state. And because I started to realize that that forced me and pushed me to be more productive too, and be careful about recognizing that time affluence was a part of productivity. But time affluence did not sit in busyness. And so for me, just that mental switch was huge.

• 37:05Speaker 01

  And if the words we use matter, right? I mean, this is our own perception of time. So if someone, you know, three times a day, people ask, how are you? And you say, busy, you start convincing yourself. And the data actually, the data don't necessarily bear out that we're becoming busier. Ashley Willens, who's at Harvard Business School, looked at this and she found that like, it's not the case that we're busier. We're just as busy as we were 20 years ago. We just think we're busier. And so, so what can you do to feel less busy? One is, it sounds odd, but to feel like you have more time, you have to gift yourself some time. You have to like, just allow yourself to have some. And we all know this kind of implicitly. Like, if you've ever had, you know, a moment at work or something where you thought you had like, a day filled with meetings, and you show up at one meeting and it gets canceled.

• 37:46Speaker 01

  And like, oh, what's happening now? It's like, this happens to me sometimes. I like walk into a faculty meeting, like, where is everybody? Like, oh, it got canceled. Didn't you hear? I'm like, no. Then I'm like, I have a half hour. And objectively, it's only a half hour, but for your, I mean, I feel like I could go skiing, like I could take up a new hobby. Like, it's like a half hour, right? And so that's the power of giving yourself a little free time that you didn't expect, right? Is it can feel so much bigger than it is. We, I did this for my students. So I found it really ironic that I was going to teach them a whole lecture on time affluence and all these studies when they're just so time famished. And so I'm like, let me let them see what this feels like. So on the day we were supposed to have this time affluence lecture, students came to class.

• 38:25Speaker 01

  And my teaching assistants were handing out these flyers. And the flyer said, today's lecture is about time affluence. And to make you feel what that's like, I'm going to give you some. No class today. Right? And it's better, I couldn't cancel class the day before, because then they'd know. It's like, but it was like that canceled meeting moment. And And they were screaming. And students freaked out. One student brought out Bluetooth, a speaker, and they were playing like Drake, God's Plan. I was like, oh, yes. Like, but what was amazing was some students reacted like, with a deep emotional reaction. Like, one student burst into tears. And she said, this was the first free hour and a half she's had all semester. And I think, you know, we can all start feeling like that, but, but that's our choice. You know, we can free this up. So, so homework, because I'm a professor, I give even your podcast listeners homework. Homework is go into your Gcal or whatever calendar system you use right now.

• 39:09Speaker 01

  And block off next month, sometimes just pick a random day, just block off a month and put it in there and write time affluence. Two hours, time affluence. And I promise when you get to that spot, it will just feel amazing.

• 39:20Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, she's a professor after all.

• 39:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, I have to give you homework.

• 39:22Jay Shetty?

  No, I love it. And yeah, I talk a lot about people setting meetings. So meetings, I E M E, and then meetings, because I feel like we're so busy scheduling meetings with everyone else. Yet the most important meeting of the day is with yourself. And I don't know anyone who's really prioritized meetings with themselves. And when we were monks, time with ourself and meetings was such an important part of, before you have time for anyone else, if you haven't had time for yourself, how are you going to show up in that podcast meeting, conversation, discussion, et cetera. So I'm glad that.

• 39:57Speaker 01

  And the work that Ashley Williams is doing is suggesting that just feeling time strapped causes us to do all this yucky stuff. She finds that people who are more time strapped, even if I just do some intervention where I have you, you know, list all the things you have to do today, which makes me feel like, oh, gosh, I have so much to do. Those people she finds will recycle less for the rest of the week. Like, there's old work in psychology suggesting that people who are kind of feeling in a rush will be more mean to other people.

• 40:21Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 40:22Speaker 01

  This very classic study where they had seminary students. So these are people who should really be wanting to help other people. Seminary students where they made them either feel like they were in a rush for a meeting or not. And they did this thing where as the seminary students were walking out to this meeting they might be in a rush for, there was a homeless person, a seemingly homeless person, it was actually a confederate, like a fake actor who was in the study, who seemed like they were in distress. And the question was, who stopped? And what you find is almost three times fewer people stopped when they were in a rush than if they felt like they had some time, right? So all these things we value about ourselves, we feel our moral choices, like whether we recycle, whether we help people. As soon as we get in kind of frantic time famine space, all those goals go away.

• 41:00Jay Shetty?

  Yes. And I think that's the study where actually they were made to be in a rush to give a presentation on being a good seminary.

• 41:07Speaker 01

  That's right. It was like, rush, I have to, I have to get out of here to be a good, I give Jane Lai lecture on being a good Samaritan. Like, then they're not actually being a good Samaritan.

• 41:15Jay Shetty?

  Exactly, yeah. And that's the dichotomy of it always, that. You know, and we went, they didn't do any mean tests like that on us as monks, but we were, when we were out on the streets and asked to fend for ourselves, what we saw were two modes that people went into. And what we saw initially was survival mode, where you just started focusing on how do you survive yourself? And then others went into service mode. And we found that over two to three weeks, those of us that went into service mode, not only were happier and healthier and actually had all our needs provided, but we were also accomplishing the task of actually doing what we were meant to do from a soul point of view and from a service point of view. Whereas those who went into survival mode also didn't have the same access to food or friends or any of it.

• 42:00Jay Shetty?

  And so we find that that survival mode is such a, it's such a disconnecting way of believing and thinking. And that's kind of like what we were just doing now. We're having a group. And, and what I'm so excited about collaborating with you and figuring out ways to work together is that I've always believed that people who can figure out a way to work together and collaborate will be happier than those who build their own towers and are sitting on them alone. And, and I think we see that a lot in society that we always hear the words, it's lonely at the top. And it's because a lot of people grow their own tower, but they didn't grow everyone else's tower and share towers at the same time. It's, it's boring being in your own tower, but if you could visit someone else's tower and they could visit yours, it'd start becoming a more fun place to be.

• 42:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I think you learn incredible amounts, you know. I mean, you mentioned learning from my talk, but I feel like I learned so much from hearing you speak, both hearing your journey and hearing how you put this into practice in your own life, you know, committing to being a monk, committing to the service, but also just like how much you realized about, you can teach people through things that are fun. You know, your, your, your listeners aren't taking, listening to this podcast in part because they're getting a grade for it, like my students in class, right? They just think it's really cool. And so, so I'm grateful the fact that you've shared your tower with me or our towers have collided or whatever tower metaphor we want to use.

• 43:12Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, we have a bridge.

• 43:13Speaker 01

  Yes, a bridge. That's a good one. Yeah.

• 43:15Jay Shetty?

  No, no, no. It's the same for you. Like, when I saw you present, it's like, your work is very entertaining. You're great at communicating in a way that's really simple and effective, and that's what I love. And I think that's why people are now listening to podcasts like this. And I know your podcast is coming out late this year, too.

• 43:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, so just to do a little plug.

• 43:32Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, do it.

• 43:33Speaker 01

  So I'm starting a new podcast called The Happiness Lab, which will launch September 17th. It's a free podcast that's coming out from Pushkin Industries. So those are the folks who brought us Revisionist History by Malcolm Gladwell.

• 43:43Jay Shetty?

  My favorite author of all time.

• 43:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, he's incredible. But it's gonna be great. Every episode is gonna be a different way your mind lies to you about what you can do to be happy and what you can do to live a little bit more flourishingly.

• 43:55Jay Shetty?

  Amazing. I love it. I think it's gonna be incredible.

• 43:57Speaker 01

  Thanks so much. And Jay's gonna be on the podcast.

• 44:00Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, and I'm really happy you're doing that. I just think there's such a need for people who are deep into research to share what they're finding, because I think it gives people so much more confidence and conviction in what they're doing. And I know, like I've said before, I'm quoting studies all the time in my work. My solo episodes are full of me quoting studies that I'm reading that back up the points I'm trying to make and make them more relevant. Tell me, what's the biggest thing you've seen that differentiates happy people from unhappy people? What have you seen as being the critical?

• 44:30Speaker 01

  The biggest thing.

• 44:31Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, one of the biggest things you've seen.

• 44:32Speaker 01

  I mean, if you had to rank, I think it really would be social connection. You know, loneliness is as bad for us as smoking 15 cigarettes a day. And these days in colleges, for example, we have over 60% of college students report feeling not just lonely, but very lonely most of the time. So I think that's hit number one. I think hit number two would be to take time, to have time, to be present, to take time to be with oneself, either through meditation or through prayer, or just you just canceled some meetings and you had some time to yourself. And then the final thing that we preach is sort of healthier practices. So silly things that we forget, things like taking time to exercise, taking time to be in nature, taking time to sleep, those things are much more powerful than we think.

• 45:11Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 45:12Speaker 01

  And just one more plug, if I can squeeze in, yeah. If folks really want to learn more about the science than they've been able to get on your podcast, one fun thing that we've done is that we've put the Yale class online completely for free.

• 45:23Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 45:24Speaker 01

  So if this short version of the Yale class piqued your interest, students can check out Coursera.org, The Science of Wellbeing. It's a 10-week class where you do all the stuff that the Yale students do. You don't have to take it for 10 weeks. You can binge-watch it like a Netflix series. Just watch all the lectures. But what's amazing is we're seeing scientifically that this class is helping people. We have these data showing that within 10 weeks, it's increasing people's positive emotion. It's making people feel less stressed. It's actually giving people more of a sense of meaning in life. So scientifically-backed ways of learning these habits, putting them into practice and feeling better.

• 45:56Jay Shetty?

  Hundred percent. Definitely check it out. I think that's awesome for anyone who's who's enjoyed this conversation, which I'm sure you have, make sure you go ahead and take a look at that.

• 46:03Speaker 01

  You can be a Yale student for free.

• 46:05Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 46:05Speaker 01

  No SATs. It's like really easy.

• 46:07Jay Shetty?

  You don't have to take an exam. Like, it's amazing. Yeah, that's awesome. I absolutely love that you've done that. I'm glad that it's spreading further. It needs to. And you saw that, right? Because you told the story of the reason it spread is you had a student that was interning at the New York Times, or?

• 46:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, he actually just, he just had started a job at the New York Times, or was gonna start when he graduated, and he was in the class. And, you know, he, he decided to pitch a story on the class. And I think the folks in New York Times were like, "That's so weird that one out of every four Yale students is taking a class on happiness, not a class on computer science or pre-med class or some data, whatever." It's like on happiness, right? And so, yeah, so he did this lovely article on the class that went completely viral. You know, then, you know, just like you, I'm on the Today Show, I'm on NBC News. I had all these international outlets that are talking about me. You know, I have a little Google of myself, as I imagine you do as well.

• 46:56Jay Shetty?

  I don't.

• 46:57Speaker 01

  You should do. Actually, you definitely should do. Yeah, you get lots of interesting stuff. But, but it would, it would pull up articles that were like, you know, in Thai and in Czech. And I'm just like, "This is crazy." Yeah.

• 47:07Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, and it's beautiful. And I'm so glad that. I am so happy that the proof is that that's the most subscribed-to class at somewhere like Yale.

• 47:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:16Jay Shetty?

  And, and I know so many, you showed so many examples of other famous schools and different schools coming to that point of wanting to do the same. And it just shows that despite us knowing that the future is data and the future is AI and the future is VR and the future is all this incredible stuff that ultimately, if it can't be used and leveraged to create more happiness... Where is it going to go? And that's, I believe that all of those things I've just mentioned can be used for happiness. It's just, we have to look at it through that lens.

• 47:48Speaker 01

  And it's also just, you know, I think many people, particularly young people, kids in high school, think, you know, students at Yale have kind of won the life lottery, at least up to that, you know, 19 year old point, right? They're young, they're at an Ivy League university, they got into this place. And that many of them felt like they weren't flourishing enough, that they needed some scientific tips to feel better. I think that's really telling too. And I think particularly for your younger listeners, you know, even like this moment, you got into Yale, like, you're not done. Like, it's a journey. And like, the things they teach at Yale, apart from my class, the things they teach at Yale might not be the kinds of things that are really generating well-being.

• 48:21Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, absolutely love that. I've got one last question for you before we move forward, and this was around gratitude. And what I loved yesterday is you talked about gratitude letters. And when we're monks, we did the same thing. And so gratitude letters have been a part of my life for a long, long time. I'm a huge fan of writing handwritten notes or personal notes to people as well. Tell me about how my audience today can use your form of gratitude letter writing for their own lives.

• 48:44Speaker 01

  You want me to give them more homework?

• 48:46Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, please, please.

• 48:47Speaker 01

  Okay, I love, I love shelling out the homework.

• 48:49Jay Shetty?

  I love homework.

• 48:49Speaker 01

  Yale professors, yeah. So gratitude letter is just a simple act of thanking somebody you haven't gotten around to thank for a long time. You know, it could be an old teacher, it could be a family member, it could be someone at work. We often don't express gratitude to the people we care about the most. And for a couple of reasons, we assume they already know it, we assume it'll kind of be awkward, because we don't, you know, we feel like the sharing is going to feel weird. And that means we don't share the kinds of things we're super grateful for. But sharing what you're grateful for is great, because it's a way to make a social connection. You have this really vulnerable conversation with somebody, which we know boosts well-being. You're feeling gratitude, which I'm sure as listeners of your podcast know, can bump up well-being. And you can kind of cement this bond with someone and really help them, like really do

• 49:31Speaker 01

  something nice for them that they weren't expecting. And so the, the, the challenge, the homework is do this, you know, take 10, 15 minutes, pick someone, the prompt is just write a letter thanking somebody you haven't thanked yet. And in the best case scenario, don't just like mail it to them or email them, find them in person and read it to them.

• 49:48Jay Shetty?

  Yes.

• 49:49Speaker 01

  And I'm sure some of your listeners are thinking, what my Yale student said, like emo, awkward, ew, yuck, yuck, yuck.

• 49:54Jay Shetty?

  A little emo, awkward moment.

• 49:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. But the research suggests that it, that that letter will make the person who receives it, not just incredibly happy, but will boost up their purpose and meaning in life in ways they don't expect. But what's more amazing is what will happen to you. The research by positive psychologist Marty Seligman and colleagues suggests that it not only bumps up your happiness, but it's a happiness bump that can last for over a month, which is crazy. I mean, when I present the study in class, I say, if I started this lecture by saying there's something you could do in a half hour today, that would statistically bump up your wellbeing for over a month, you would say I was crazy, or I was trying to sell something or make money. But like gratitude is completely free. You know, maybe you have to like pay for the paper or something, but it's really cheap, right? And so it's

• 50:36Speaker 01

  like such powerful interventions that are completely free and don't even take that much time. We have this huge effect on our happiness.

• 50:42Jay Shetty?

  I absolutely love that. And, and what, what turned me really on to gratitude was, I remember a few years ago, one of my friends lost his father, his father passed away, and his last conversation with his father was an argument. And he remembers that being the last thing he said to his father, and they were shouting at each other. And then his father passed away, you know, it was unpredicted and no idea that it was going to happen. And I remember him opening up to me and saying to me that he'd regretted that was his last conversation with his father, because really he loved his father, and that was just the argument that they were having at the time, because of whatever reason. And I remember him telling me that and just thinking to myself, okay, my last conversations with everyone I have from now. Are going to be good conversations.

• 51:26Jay Shetty?

  So I'm never going to go to sleep angry. I'm never going to say something mean to someone as the last thing I say to them. I'm never going to end anything on that sort of a note. And so I've gone around trying to always, I tell my wife I love her every day. I tell my mama, I message my mom as much as I can to tell her I love her. And it's not just artificially just saying, I love you, I love you, I love you. It's like you said, being specific, and that's for me, gratitude is specific. For me, whenever I teach gratitude is like, how specific can you be about what you're grateful for and what someone's done in your life? Because we all get, like, when someone comes up to me and says, Jay, that was a really nice presentation. I'm like, that's nice and I appreciate that. But when someone says, Jay, that was a really nice presentation because this is what I learned?

• 52:06Jay Shetty?

  That is far more revelatory to me that the person was actually listening and engaged. And also, it's just so much more meaningful and deep and you form a bond. And, and so I feel that the more specific we can be in gratitude, the more we feel the benefit and the more the other person does too.

• 52:22Speaker 01

  And there's research on this. It's the specificity and it's also, but it's also the emotion part. You know, when somebody says, you know, I loved your talk and like, it really touched me. And they're being vulnerable and like admitting emotions to you, that might be awkward, especially if they just met you at your talk, like that feels really good. But that's not what people predict. One of the challenges of writing the gratitude letter is our own perception of what the other person's thinking. Like, we think like, oh, if I express too much emotion, it's going to feel weird. Or if I mention some specific thing, it might sound like really strange, like why that one specific thing in the talk? Or even worse, we start analyzing, especially if you're writing it, like what the letter sounds like. I know I can be very perfectionistic and I get this myself of like, they're going to analyze my grammar. This is some work by the psychologist Nick Epley.

• 53:05Speaker 01

  And what he finds is like, that's what, that's what the writers are thinking. And so they're so worried about it. But what the listeners want is just like, just to feel like you connected, you know, just a specific emotion and like, oh man, you just, you noticed this, right? That's what people are paying attention to.

• 53:19Jay Shetty?

  Absolutely, absolutely. In Sanskrit, there's a word that's called sara grahi. And what it means is that the seeker of the essence. And it's said that ultimately, everyone is just. You're not listening to what people say, you're listening to how they say it. And what's being communicated is the emotion. And I think we all do that, and we were talking about it yesterday. That when we're speaking and communicating, sometimes you could be saying something that makes complete sense. But you say it in the worst way, and everyone's already shut off. And, and sometimes, like you said, we're trying to poetically articulate how we feel. But the person's just gonna get the message from emotion.

• 53:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, just the emotion there.

• 53:54Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 53:54Speaker 01

  And there's so much research on the power of that, right? This is another benefit of gratitude is that you can actually use it to increase productivity. You know, there's studies in business schools about, you know, if you want to motivate your workers, if you're a manager, don't pay them more, express gratitude. There's one study by Adam Grant where they have folks who are working in like a university call center. So these are like my poor students who have to make money by calling alums and begging for money. And it's, you know, really kind of like soul-wrenching sort of work. But what they find is that if the manager comes in and just says, you know, we're really grateful for what you do. You're really like positively affecting the university, thank you so much. And like in a way that the emotion kind of comes out, using your Sanskrit term. What you find is not only do people work more, they work, they make twice as many calls.

• 54:35Speaker 01

  So you increase productivity twofold just by the simple act of expressing a teeny tiny bit of emotion in a short thing. We forget the power of this stuff to affect people, to affect ourselves. But we just have to be a little vulnerable and sometimes go against, you know, as my class teaches, go against these instincts. And our, what our mind's telling us to do, it's like, oh, it's gonna be awkward. Just do it, you get all these benefits.

• 54:57Jay Shetty?

  Okay, one last question before, because you're, you're just too good to not ask this.

• 55:01Speaker 01

  I'll have to come back, I'll have to come back.

• 55:02Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, you a hundred percent have to come back. This, this one's really important to me because I think so many people, and I'm sure you see in students the most, and I get asked this a lot, that's why I'm asking you, because I think you'll be able to help. Procrastination and overthinking, it's huge right now. The amount of people that message me and say, I don't know what to do because I'm procrastinating, I procrastinate too much, I overthink too much, I overanalyze. What have you seen both from a science? And practical step-by-step process of overcoming procrastination and overthinking.

• 55:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, part of it kind of comes from this stuff that we've been talking about. Like, we're not trying to enjoy the journey, we just have this destination in mind, right? You know, I have to write the perfect essay, or I have to, you know, finish the perfect project, this huge, huge thing. And it's from the anxiety that comes from putting all our eggs in that basket that procrastination arises, right? You know, my students will be, you know, doing a final paper and they're so worried about their grade. The final paper has to be perfect. You know, they're not thinking about what they're going to learn, how fun it's going to be. It's just like the anxiety of that. And that's what plagues you, that's why you can't, that's why you can't start. And so I think, you know, one, one way to get over procrastination is to, you know, often people talk about breaking up the project into kind of steps. And I think that does two things. One is it makes it more manageable, that you can kind of feel like your journey is getting you to like

• 56:16Speaker 01

  some goal and you can keep kind of building on that. But a lot of it is getting us away from this external mindset, you know, we're not, if you're thinking about, oh my God, my final grade in this whole class, that's going to freak you out and you're not going to be able to start. But if you're thinking about like, I'm just going to do the first paragraph. And even that, kind of be mindful about like, what am I going to learn from this paragraph? Like, how can I make it more about the journey? How am I going to make it fun? That kind of opens you up a little bit, sort of shuts off all the emotion that comes with procrastination.

• 56:40Jay Shetty?

  That's awesome. Laurie, you're amazing. What we end every interview with is a final five, quick-fire, rapid-fire round. So it's, you have to answer these questions in one word or one sentence, maximum.

• 56:52Speaker 01

  I'm a length, I'm a, you know, wordy professor.

• 56:54Jay Shetty?

  No, you're not. You're actually very good at it.

• 56:56Speaker 01

  Just kidding.

• 56:56Jay Shetty?

  I usually ruin this because I get really interested by what people say and then I ask more questions. But anyway, we'll try and do that. So what's the one thing you can always count on to lift your mood?

• 57:05Speaker 01

  Uh, my husband.

• 57:06Jay Shetty?

  Oh, that's amazing. I love that. I'd say my, I say my wife to that answer. That's awesome. Question number two, what's the biggest lesson you've learned from being a teacher?

• 57:13Speaker 01

  Uh, this is a hard one.

• 57:17Speaker 01

  Patience, patience.

• 57:19Jay Shetty?

  Question number three, what's the best piece of advice a student's ever given you?

• 57:24Speaker 01

  Uh, to practice what I preach.

• 57:25Jay Shetty?

  Nice. That's the challenge of being a teacher. Yeah, and a good one.

• 57:29Speaker 01

  Yes, yes.

• 57:29Jay Shetty?

  Yeah. The fourth one, uh, what's one piece of advice you would give to a student that's struggling in your class?

• 57:36Speaker 01

  Take time off. Time affluence is a big one. Just get it out of your schedule.

• 57:40Jay Shetty?

  Okay, perfect. And five, what's your favorite part about teaching college students?

• 57:45Speaker 01

  Just interacting with the students, especially as, I know we're not supposed to talk, but especially as head of college, these students that I get to know feel like my family. You know, they're my deepest and most meaningful social connections, and I just wouldn't give that up for the world.

• 57:56Jay Shetty?

  That's amazing. Everyone who's been listening or watching, you've just had a free Yale class. If you, I highly recommend you go and check out Lori's class on Coursera. If you've enjoyed this conversation, you're going to get so much more out of completing that 10-week class as well. So go check it out. Lori's podcast is coming out later on this year, The Happiness Lab. Make sure you check that out as well. And go and follow Lori on Twitter. She's really, really active there as well. So that's another place that you can find her work. Lori, you're amazing. I'm so glad that

• 58:24Speaker 01

  Ditto, ditto, ditto.

• 58:25Jay Shetty?

  we've connected on this trip here because for me, I just, I love learning and I love growing. And sitting with you is like the best thing for me because all I have to do is just sit and listen and just, it feels like music to me because your incredible work and the fact that you've taken this research and turned it into something practical, I'm so grateful you've done that. Thank you so much. Because I'm sure that it's not only impacted the people in the class and at Yale, but you've taken it beyond and taken it to the world. So thank you so much for doing that.

• 58:56Speaker 01

  Thanks. And thanks so much for having me.

• 59:08Speaker 05

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• 59:38Speaker 02

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• 59:48Speaker 03

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• 1:00:02Speaker 04

  I'm not the first daddy.

• 1:00:03Speaker 03

  Digger. See the trailer online. Only in theaters October 2nd. Rated R. Under 17. Not a middle without parent.