Mary Berry: "I didn't want to leave the house!" How gardening helped me through grief

Mary Berry has been married for 60 years and says she and her husband have never had a cross word. Her secret? Do a lap of the garden before saying the thing you might regret. In this chat with Fearne, Mary shares the simple principles that have guided her life: be kind, contribute to community, and prioritise time in nature. Mary’s 91, and her mum lived to 105. She believes a busy mind makes a happy person, so offers advice for getting into your gardening era (Fearne’s not quite there yet) regardless of how much outdoor space you have. Mary also reflects on the wartime childhood in Bath that saw her school being bombed and her family needing to grow their own food. Plus, how do you move through the grief of losing a child? Mary’s book, My Gardening Life, is out now. If you liked this episode of Happy Place, you might also like: Mary Berry’s first Happy Place chat https://pod.fo/e/1428b Ruth Langsford https://pod.fo/e/3b8e28 Liz Earle https://pod.fo/e/4049a9 Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Fearne Cotton?

  Hello and a massive welcome to Happy Place with me Fern Cotton. This is the show that learns from other people's life experiences. Today, I'm chatting to Mary Berry.

• 0:12Speaker 01

  When we were young, it was wartime. My father really didn't want to garden, but it was part of Dig for Britain. So immediately, our back garden was full of root vegetables, raspberries, strawberries. We liked picking those. But mum said if everybody gave up sugar in their tea, in those days, not many people had coffee. Everybody had sugar in their tea. If you gave up sugar in your tea, there would be some left to make a cake. And everybody did in the household give up sugar.

• 0:45Fearne Cotton?

  Guys, how do I find you today? I've had one hell of a week. I am, you know, you feel like you're slightly going mad because you've just done too many things. There's been a lot of like off school activities, like millions of podcasts and talks, which obviously I love doing. Parents' evening, it's like one of those weeks where there's no time for the gear change. It's like one minute I'm podcasting and then I'm talking to a science teacher about my kids' grades. And I feel slightly mad, which probably means I need to pause at some point. Like, I'm sure many of you do. And maybe this episode is exactly that for you, like you time. I highly encourage it for you and me.

• 1:30Fearne Cotton?

  I never give myself enough me time. So I'm wholeheartedly giving you listeners permission right now to not multi-skill while you're listening to this, if possible. If you can just like lay down on the sofa or in bed, even better, or in the bath. Listen to me in the bath. Oh my God, the best. Look, if you are cracking on with doing a job or you're out on a walk, whatever. Enjoy, but let's just all try and give ourselves a bit of a pause because life is wacky. It's too much. It's so full on. Now, look, I was really excited about today's talk for lots of reasons. Mary Berry has been on the podcast before. It was right at the start,

• 2:12Fearne Cotton?

  like eight years ago, I got to go to Mary's beautiful house, which was sort of surreal in itself. And I remember very clearly that she gave me a little plate of biscuits whilst we were doing the podcast and I was too nervous to eat them. And also, I thought the crunching sound would be maybe not so fun for you guys. But Mary ate biscuits throughout that first chat. Sadly, I did not repay the favour and bring any baked goods for this conversation today. But what a treat. And it's a treat for many reasons. There's something so important about interviewing older people. And I don't want to say that with like any connotations, other than it's someone that's got a lot of years behind them with a wealth of experience and a ton of

• 2:57Fearne Cotton?

  wisdom. And I didn't want to waste the opportunity to ask Mary some pretty big questions about being in your 90s, about looking back at, you know, nearly a century of life. What an astonishing, astonishing thing. I feel very, very lucky I got to do this. Now, obviously, we all know Mary for the endless joy that she finds in cooking and baking. But her latest book is called My Gardening Life. Gardening has been a huge part of her family's day to day life since she was a child. And talking to Mary, there's clearly a lot of crossover between gardening and cooking. There's a lot of inspiration that comes from helping her father with the vegetable patch and knowing how the food that she's cooking was grown is clearly important to her.

• 3:44Speaker 02

  Hey, we're Nick and Jack, hosts of The Best One Yet. Behind every episode, there's research, emails, spreadsheets, and our shared Google Doc, the Headline Hammer. With Google Workspace with Gemini, Google's AI is built right into the premium versions of tools we already use, like Gmail, Docs, and Sheets. No new tools or extra logins, just personalised AI for the way we work. That means less time on the work around the work and more time finding the stories worth talking about. Get AI tools for work. Upgrade to Google Workspace with Gemini at goo.gle/workspacewithGemini. That's goo.gle.

• 4:15Speaker 03

  GLE slash workspace with Gemini.

• 4:17Speaker 04

  Help I sexted my boss is the podcast where manners.

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• 4:21Speaker 04

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• 4:22Speaker 03

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• 4:23Speaker 04

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• 4:26Speaker 03

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• 4:28Speaker 04

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• 4:32Speaker 03

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• 4:38Speaker 04

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• 4:40Speaker 03

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• 4:43Speaker 04

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• 4:44Speaker 03

  Be warned, it's a bit rude.

• 4:50Fearne Cotton?

  Right, let's do it. Here's the show.

• 5:13Fearne Cotton?

  Mary Berry, I am so happy to see you in real life. It's so great to have you here.

• 5:19Speaker 01

  It's good to be here, fun.

• 5:20Fearne Cotton?

  First of all, I must congratulate you for your BAFTA fellowship, which you just picked up this weekend. What a moment.

• 5:28Speaker 01

  Yes. You know, when I was told about it, I thought, well, it goes to actors, actresses. And I looked at the list of people who'd received it in the past. And I thought, I'm a cook and a gardener. And I felt so honoured, you know, and Lucy is my assistant and she's been with me 36 years. And she said, it's so important.

• 5:56Fearne Cotton?

  Yes.

• 5:56Speaker 01

  And she kept saying, it's such an honour. I said, it is such an honour. I can't really believe it.

• 6:02Fearne Cotton?

  It's just amazing. It's so brilliant. And you had that gorgeous pink dress on, walking the red carpet. You looked so beautiful. But it is such a huge honour and such a moment. When you look back at your time on TV, your career on television is so loved by all generations. How, how do you feel looking back at it all?

• 6:23Speaker 01

  Well, I feel.

• 6:26Speaker 01

  It's an accolade, you know, and it's, I suppose, a thank you. Um, yes, I, you know, the one thing that does cross your mind and you think, you wish your mother and father, mum and dad were here. I know they're looking down, but the first thing you would normally do is pick up the phone. Mum, you do, you know, um, and, um, you know, my husband was very pleased and the children, I think they were too.

• 6:54Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, I'm sure they were. Everyone was so proud, I'm sure. And what's even kind of more extraordinary, it wasn't like you grew up thinking, I want to be on the TV. This is the career for me. It was something that kind of organically just happened.

• 7:08Speaker 01

  Well, um, I enjoy sharing what I love, which is cooking. That was my career because I mean, I didn't do that in a mass and like to be outside and love break and friends and anything to do with sport. And so I wouldn't have been able to be a doctor or anything. But I do like teaching and, and teaching is immensely rewarding.

• 7:36Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 7:36Speaker 01

  Um, and of course, eventually it was television and television is the biggest audience that you could get. And if one makes it very clear and does it sort of step by step and make it enjoyable, people copy you and they are then proud and present it to their family and friends. And they feel good about it. And, you know, sometimes in a family you have children who are very clever at school and win everything. And there's sometimes children that haven't, haven't had that. And then suddenly they start to bake. And I'm teaching them and.

• 8:18Speaker 01

  They become so pleased and sometimes in the mornings when I put the computer on, I will see a little boy maybe with a cake that's a little bit lopsided, but hand decorated by this child. And in the background, parents very, very proud. And the child may not have achieved great things academically, but enjoys producing something that everyone's going to enjoy, family and friends.

• 8:48Fearne Cotton?

  That's why, I mean, I've always loved baking cakes for that exact reason. You've got something to show for their effort at the end that you can be proud of. And also something everyone else can enjoy and then give you praise for and say, that was delicious.

• 9:02Speaker 01

  And again, with gardening, it's something that you can enjoy. You, as long as you dress for it, you can do it all weathers. And it's rewarding. I mean, in cooking, you can make something for supper, buy the ingredients, follow a good recipe and have something in the evening that's delicious. Now gardening takes a bit more time, a bit more patience, but it's a format. You know, you've got to set to plant the seeds or get the plants and so on. They've all got to be looked after. It's something that takes more time.

• 9:39Fearne Cotton?

  Yes.

• 9:40Speaker 01

  But of course you are out in all weathers if you're. And, you know, do you really need to go to the gym? By the time you've hoed a flower bed and so on, or pushed a lawnmower or so on. That's a great way of exercising and in the fresh air you feel so good.

• 10:00Fearne Cotton?

  You feel so good. I mean, you are now ninety one.

• 10:04Speaker 01

  Ninety one.

• 10:05Fearne Cotton?

  Ninety one and fit as a fiddle. So if anyone was going to push gardening on us for exercise, you can absolutely do that.

• 10:13Speaker 01

  Yes, and also it's the fact of clearing your head.

• 10:16Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 10:17Speaker 01

  And I'll come back from seeing you and then I'll very likely shout at the dogs and say, let's go out and I'll go and perhaps pick an odd flower or see if what needs to be done. And you feel in a different world.

• 10:33Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 10:33Speaker 01

  And if it was pouring with rain, I would dress for it.

• 10:36Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 10:36Speaker 01

  Stick a mac on umbrella, get out there.

• 10:39Fearne Cotton?

  I love that. As I said before we started the podcast today, I've not moved into my gardening era yet, but I can see it on the horizon. I know it's going to happen. I absolutely understand the benefits of it. I love going for a walk in the park and just being outside in nature. And I know that if I've got lots of worries or thoughts in my head, that's a really good way of me just having that clarity, that headspace. It's so lovely. The last time you came on this podcast was in 2019, unbelievably. I felt like it was about two years ago, but it was seven, which is mind blowing.

• 11:17Speaker 01

  Your arithmetic's very good.

• 11:18Fearne Cotton?

  To quickly do the maths. But I came to your house, but I think you've moved from that house since. It was the one that had the big pond in the back garden.

• 11:27Speaker 01

  No pond now. No, that was a big garden, took a lot of time. And we moved, the children said, well, my husband actually said to me, when we were on holiday together, and he said, if I, if I put my clogs before you, would you stay here in the house in Penn? And I said, no, I certainly wouldn't. And he said, where would you like to go? And I said, well, I suppose we should be near the children, possibly Henley. And he said, well, perhaps when we get home, we should look. Meanwhile, I phoned Annabelle, our daughter,

• 12:08Speaker 01

  and said, dad says he's not going out feet first in Penn. He would like to possibly move to somewhere like Marlow or Henley. Oh, she said, that's near me and near Tom. That's. I'll find something. By the time we got home, she had found that pass, but it took ages to sort all out. But it was lovely to think that the young wanted to be near and they do pop in.

• 12:36Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, that's so nice. And you've got another gorgeous back garden to be looking after.

• 12:42Speaker 01

  It's not as, not as big, but it's so manageable. But again, it was a learning process.

• 12:50Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 12:51Speaker 01

  Because we didn't want a lot of work, and yet we wanted, you know, we wanted ploughers to pick. And I did raised beds and most raised beds are sort of, you know, foot off the floor, off the ground. These are at sitting height made of brick. So in my dotage, in the years that follow, I'll be sitting on the wall, pulling up my carrots or weeding and without any effort.

• 13:17Fearne Cotton?

  That's so brilliant. I mean, there's some beautiful pictures of all of your gardens, actually, in this book, My Gardening Life, which I loved reading because it's a real education for me, for someone that hasn't started gardening yet. And I loved hearing a lot of the stories behind your gardens, but also what gardening has given you over the years. And also looking at how it evokes a lot of memories for you. You talk about primrose being a real evocative flower for you. Why is that?

• 13:47Speaker 01

  Well, when we were young and growing up, it was wartime and there weren't such things as, there were parks if you wanted to go to, but there weren't theme parks or places that you could, sports centres or outings. We just stayed at home and had fun and we had dens and we built fires. We used to cook outside, we put tents, we had friends around. You didn't call it a sleepover. They, they came with a sleeping bag and went on the floor. But, you know, nowadays, children are much more entertained every day. We entertained

• 14:28Speaker 01

  ourselves, but we did, we made things and we used to go in dad's work. Shop and make things and mend things. Um. It was different.

• 14:38Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 14:39Speaker 01

  But it's all memories. And talking of primroses, um, there were sort of outings in the seasons. In spring, mum would make a picnic, basic picnic, and take something called a primus, which was a little stove, which needed a lot of attention to get it going. You had to put it on a level bit of ground. And mum would have a kettle and make tea. And then we'd have our picnic. We'd pick primroses and tie them up with a wool into little bunches. And give them to friends. I used to take them to my teachers at school. Because that would sweeten them up, because I wouldn't have worked very hard.

• 15:21Fearne Cotton?

  I love it. Thinking about that era of your life during the war, one of my big regrets is not asking my nan Sylvia would be, I think about your age now. She died many years ago. But she had my mum as a teenager, so she was a young granny for me to have. And I loved being in her company. And I heard little bits from her childhood. She was evacuated to Wales in the war. She didn't have a great time.

• 15:50Speaker 01

  Really?

• 15:50Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, it was really rough. The family that looked after her, or I think it was one woman maybe that looked after her, would beat her and she was quite traumatised from it. And then she came back from the war, and I think it was not long after that, her older sister died of TB, which was of course kind of rife in that era. So I knew little tiny tidbits, but I wish I'd sat with her and just quizzed her more about what that era was like, what her memories were like, and how it felt as a young person, knowing that something so huge was going on around you. What are your memories from that time?

• 16:27Speaker 01

  Well, I was not evacuated because we were in the country in Bath. And I can remember that Bath had a blitz for two days. And I remember all our windows being knocked out.

• 16:41Fearne Cotton?

  Whoa.

• 16:42Speaker 01

  Um, and I remember the blackouts and my school was bombed.

• 16:48Speaker 01

  Which I thought was about the best thing that could possibly happen. But only the next week, the headmistress came to my parents and said, when the windows had been put back in, uh, could a couple of classes come and have it in our house?

• 17:05Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, wow.

• 17:06Speaker 01

  Again, I thought, whoopee, I'd fall out of bed straight into class. But of course, my classes weren't in our house.

• 17:14Fearne Cotton?

  Oh.

• 17:14Speaker 01

  They were about half a mile away, which we had to walk to, which was, you know, not very thoughtful of the headmistress.

• 17:22Fearne Cotton?

  And do you remember like a sense of what was going on, you know, as a, as a child living through it? Was there fear or, you know, what were your kind of feelings around it?

• 17:30Speaker 01

  I don't think there was fear. I knew there was anxiety with my parents. And I can remember the eight o'clock news every morning. Uh, and my parents would sit at breakfast and we had to be quiet while they listened to what was happening. Because the ra- there was no television, uh, and so they would, uh, listen intently. And it was very solemn, solemn, correct voices.

• 17:53Fearne Cotton?

  Hmm.

• 17:54Speaker 01

  Uh, and just before the news came on, uh, a doctor came on for five minutes talking about health and things. It was, you know, just in the back of your mind, but we had to be quiet then.

• 18:05Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, no, I'm sure. And around this time, you became as a family, pretty self-sufficient in terms of growing your own vegetables. That was very much a part of how you would kind of get through it with the rations going on.

• 18:17Speaker 01

  Uh, well, then you're quite right, but, um, but my father really didn't want to garden. But it was part of Dig for Britain. And, uh, so immediately our back garden was, was full of root vegetables, raspberries, strawberries. We like picking those and, um, celery. He grew celery and I remember to keep the celery white, he used to wrap each of the celeries in newspaper and then banked it up with earth, like people do with potatoes now. And, uh, then the, the cost of the celery didn't get any light, it stayed white.

• 18:56Fearne Cotton?

  Oh.

• 18:57Speaker 01

  And he grew sweet peas for mum. I did a little bit of gardening because I was always in his wake. And he helped me, but I'm sort of radishes and things like that.

• 19:08Fearne Cotton?

  And then would you cook together as a family? Or was that very much your mum would be gathering the veg?

• 19:12Speaker 01

  Mum would do all the cooking, but Dan, we had one of the first washing machines. It was a Parnell, I can remember, and he also bought a canning machine to can fruit.

• 19:29Fearne Cotton?

  Wow.

• 19:30Speaker 01

  And he liked that sort of thing, but he didn't actually cook. We just had a gas cooker and oven. And a big kitchen, huge table. And but we always sat round the table for meals. And that was the time that you begin to talk.

• 19:45Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, I mean, that's still my favourite thing now is when my kids are back from school. I'm back from work, we can sit together. It's usually the only moment, especially with my son who's thirteen. That I can actually get anything out of him and talk about the day.

• 20:00Speaker 01

  Always on a full stomach.

• 20:02Fearne Cotton?

  Yes.

• 20:02Speaker 01

  If you want anything from them or from any member of the family, feed them.

• 20:08Fearne Cotton?

  Yes.

• 20:08Speaker 01

  And then when they're feeling, oh, that was good, then you can get an answer that you want.

• 20:15Fearne Cotton?

  Without a doubt. And and what would your mum be cooking around that time from the garden?

• 20:19Speaker 01

  Mum would be, well, it was very repetitive each week, really. You'd have a roast on Sunday. And dad would carve it, but I mean, it was, you had a small portion. Because the next day it would be cottage pie or some form of mince. And and the mince that was in the kitchen, and it was a hand one, and mum would put the meat through it. It might be Monday might be cold lamb, and then it would be a shepherd's pie. And then we would have fish because fish wasn't rationed.

• 20:52Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, right.

• 20:54Speaker 01

  And mum said if everybody gave up sugar in their tea, in those days, not many people had coffee, but if everybody had sugar in their tea, if you gave up sugar in your tea, there would be some left to make a cake every two weeks or have some puddings. Um, and everybody did in the household gave, give up sugar.

• 21:15Fearne Cotton?

  Wow. I mean, there was no waste. Everything was used.

• 21:18Speaker 01

  Oh, no waste. And of course we had chickens and in the winter mum would preserve the eggs in isinglass in a great big um, sort of tub, metal tub, and uh, put the eggs in and that seals the outsides of them. So the air doesn't get at them.

• 21:35Fearne Cotton?

  Wow.

• 21:36Speaker 01

  And she would use those during the winter when the hens weren't laying.

• 21:40Fearne Cotton?

  Wow. I mean, you had to be unbelievably resourceful. It was a time where every bit of every veg had to be used, every bit of meat, no waste.

• 21:49Speaker 01

  And the veg peelings uh, would be boiled up and put with bran to feed the hens.

• 21:56Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, wow. I mean, we're so far removed from that mostly in this country these days. There's so much waste. It makes me feel anxious. I can't bear it.

• 22:04Speaker 01

  And there was no dog food. You didn't buy dog food in tins or, or uh, you know, dogs were fed on scraps. But uh, we all love dogs and they got good scraps.

• 22:14Fearne Cotton?

  I bet they did.

• 22:15Speaker 01

  But, but um, you know, it was a different world.

• 22:18Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, completely. And then not so long after the war, or maybe it was just as the war was ending, you contracted polio as a child.

• 22:26Speaker 01

  When I was thirteen years and uh, I, I just, I knew I was ill, but because I didn't feel very well. And I, I thought we had um, in the house, we had fireplaces in the bedrooms and mine had never been lit. And mum and dad lit the fire in the bedroom, which was a huge treat. But I just thought, um, I just thought I'd uh, you know, got flu or something. And when uh, Dr. Love, our family doctor, nice name, isn't it?

• 22:57Fearne Cotton?

  Lovely name.

• 22:58Speaker 01

  Doctor Love came and he said, uh, I think Mary has got infantile paralysis and she must go to hospital at once. And that's what, another name for polio.

• 23:10Fearne Cotton?

  Wow. And you were in hospital for quite some time.

• 23:12Speaker 01

  I was, I was, but I was very well looked after. But you were talking earlier on about TB. And after being in the isolation hospital, I went to Bath Orthopaedic Hospital. And one side of the ward was open with glass because TB people had to have fresh air.

• 23:33Fearne Cotton?

  Oh.

• 23:34Speaker 01

  And you had your toothbrush put in a mug of water, ready for the morning. And I can remember the water that my toothbrush stood in froze. And you can imagine, it was quite cold.

• 23:48Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, my God. That's my worst nightmare.

• 23:49Speaker 01

  I've been cold ever since.

• 23:51Fearne Cotton?

  Mary, that is the pit, especially when you're not feeling well.

• 23:54Speaker 01

  Well, no, I got better there, you know, but at that stage, I was feeling better and had lots of exercises and got back to walking again.

• 24:03Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, thank goodness.

• 24:08Speaker 05

  Hey, we're Nick and Jack, hosts of The Best One Yet. Behind every episode, there's research, emails, spreadsheets and our shared Google Doc, the headline hammer.

• 24:15Speaker 02

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• 24:26Speaker 05

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• 24:38Speaker 05

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• 24:42Speaker 06

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• 24:44Speaker 07

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• 24:45Speaker 06

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• 24:48Speaker 07

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• 25:19Fearne Cotton?

  And so, obviously gardening was kind of part of your family language, whether your parents wanted to or not. It was very much part of family life and how you were looking after yourselves. When did you start to garden more so for fun? When it became something about aesthetics and flowers looking beautiful and making a garden really feel like something?

• 25:41Speaker 01

  Well, all of my childhood, mum always had a bunch of flowers on the kitchen table. And I can remember the very south lawn was the house. And I can remember the individual phlox and dahlias. You know, I could remember, even though I was then in my early teens, I could remember the plant names, not the Latin names. But, you know, I was interested in plants and flowers. And I suppose when I got married, we lived first in London, in near Notty Hill Gate. Behind, before your time, there was a classic cinema, behind the classic cinema. And next door to a fish and chip restaurant, Jill's.

• 26:25Speaker 01

  And our house touched it and it was cheap. And my father, who was a surveyor, came up. And he said, well, people aren't buying that house because it's next door to a fish and chip restaurant. But, he said, he was there when they were frying in the evening and so on. And the smells of the fish was going about eight houses down the street. He said, your house, you won't get any smell at all.

• 26:53Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, wow.

• 26:54Speaker 01

  So, we bought it.

• 26:56Fearne Cotton?

  I love that.

• 26:56Speaker 01

  And the garden was very small and in total shade. I desperately was putting plants in and they mostly died.

• 27:05Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, no.

• 27:06Speaker 01

  But then I had more success later on.

• 27:09Fearne Cotton?

  I mean, I love having fresh flowers in the house. Yesterday, my next door neighbour had picked up a package for me. And she popped over and she'd picked these five gigantic peach coloured roses from her garden. And they smell like nothing else. They're in my kitchen in the vase now. And this morning before I left, I was giving them a big old sniff and they're just, but the colour. It's like the softest peach tone ever. It's such a treat having fresh flowers.

• 27:40Speaker 01

  It is, and obviously because you are in the heart of London, they're already, they're in flower. I mean, my favourite rose is Chandos Beauty, which we have had in all our gardens. And it's British grown, hardness, and it has wonderful foliage, wonderful smell. And it's sort of a sort of white with a bit of pink. And it's good for picking and of course, repeat flowering. Repeat flowering in a rose is, I think, important. So you get two lots.

• 28:17Fearne Cotton?

  And how do you guarantee that? Is that about pruning?

• 28:20Speaker 01

  No, no, no, it's about the variety.

• 28:22Fearne Cotton?

  Right.

• 28:22Speaker 01

  So when you buy your rose, it will say if it's repeat flowering or whether it's not.

• 28:29Fearne Cotton?

  Do you get two, two goes of it?

• 28:31Speaker 01

  What happens is it comes in, usually starting in June. And then it'll have a flurry till the end of perhaps July. And you deadhead it, deadheading is so important in gardening. And cut it down a bit, feed it, water it, it'll come again. And you should get flowers from a good rose, you know, right up to the frost.

• 28:55Fearne Cotton?

  And are you out in the garden every day? Is that just part of your routine?

• 28:59Speaker 01

  My routine is when I get up in the morning is to go out with the dogs. And so I am. And every time I walk in, it's the back door is open. And you know, I might pick up the post and go and sit, sit in the garden, open the post or whatever, if you get any. But it is, it's part of my life. You feel so much better.

• 29:21Fearne Cotton?

  You do. Is that still something you would rely on? Mentally trying to, you know, mould something over or you've got worries, concerns. Is that a go to for you to clear your head?

• 29:33Speaker 01

  Absolutely, Phil, but don't you feel the same?

• 29:35Fearne Cotton?

  A hundred percent, a hundred percent. It's just not necessarily with a gardening, but just getting, I have to get outdoors. I have to be outside.

• 29:42Speaker 01

  Yes, it is so important.

• 29:44Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 29:45Speaker 01

  And I'm very fussy where I buy my flies, you know. If you go to a local nursery, a good one that perhaps grows their own plants, you know that you're in a similar soil to what you've got, which is, I think, a great help.

• 30:01Fearne Cotton?

  Yes, I was reading all about soil in your book. That was all a new lingo to me. I didn't know anything about it.

• 30:06Speaker 01

  But the time will, well, time will come. Start with pots.

• 30:11Fearne Cotton?

  Yes.

• 30:12Speaker 01

  And pots are lovely because if by any chance they die, you can replace them.

• 30:18Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 30:19Speaker 01

  And they just bring a smile as people walk out and perhaps you're having a drink outside. And even a window box is cheerful, isn't it?

• 30:27Fearne Cotton?

  Well, I'm so lucky in my garden, I've got a magnolia tree that's pretty substantial. It's been there for years, way longer, you know, than I've lived there. And then next to that, I've got a wall of wisteria, which is sadly already dropped. But it looked so pretty, big purple hanging wisteria.

• 30:43Speaker 01

  But most likely it'll flower again later in the season.

• 30:46Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, I didn't know that.

• 30:47Speaker 01

  Usually, yes, if you're lucky, you get a bit of a second.

• 30:51Fearne Cotton?

  That's so good.

• 30:52Speaker 01

  But it's, it's got a smell too. It's beautiful.

• 30:55Fearne Cotton?

  It's heavenly. I love it. Of course, down the line, you started using your garden and the vegetables you were cooking to then run Aga classes at your house, which seems like a lovely marriage of your two deep passions of cooking and gardening. And you would have many people sign up to this course, come to your home. You would all cook together. What was that experience like for you?

• 31:17Speaker 01

  It was when we lost William, our son, I didn't really want to go to London to work again. I wanted to stay with my husband. And I thought, what can I do from home? So I ran a cook, I had an Aga for most of our married life. And I thought, well, I do know more about Aga. As the most people and it's a different technique to cook with an agar. So we started these agar classes and Lucy Young came and we did it together. I used to do the morning demonstrations, she did the afternoon. We'd had it for twelve years and I did every single session. I didn't ever get anybody else in. They'd come to see me cook and I would be there.

• 31:58Fearne Cotton?

  Hmm.

• 31:58Speaker 01

  I wouldn't actually remember their names. I used to put the sticker, Lu- Lucy used to be by the door and put a sticking label saying Jane Brown. So when they eventually came through to coffee to me, I would say, good morning, Jane. And she would think, oh, she's remembered my name. It was just because she had a label.

• 32:18Fearne Cotton?

  That's so great.

• 32:19Speaker 01

  Because I'm not very good at remembering names.

• 32:21Fearne Cotton?

  No, I'm not. I'm very good with faces. I never forget a face. I actually had one of your agar cookbooks because when I was about twenty four, I bought this teeny, teeny little cottage and it came with an agar. And I'd never even seen one. I was twenty four. I barely cooked. I was, but I loved baking. I've always loved baking. I used to bake with my nan. So I had this agar and I was like, I don't know what to do with this thing. Cause obviously they're set at certain temperatures and I was clueless. So I got your agar cookbook and I absolutely nailed baking in an agar from your book.

• 32:54Speaker 01

  It's, it's different.

• 32:56Fearne Cotton?

  It is different, but you can get some beautiful results. So around this time, you've got this nice community of people that are coming to your house. Was that in some way healing with, with the grief that you were feeling to have that distraction?

• 33:11Speaker 01

  It kept me busy.

• 33:12Fearne Cotton?

  Kept you busy.

• 33:13Speaker 01

  Kept me busy and I had my husband and other children about me. So, yeah, it's, it's time. And I think the one thing we've all told ourselves how lucky we were to have had William and how much a wonderful life he'd given us. And, you know, I mean, it's many years now. It's thirty years since he died. And I mean, every Christmas, we're still saying, you know, having a drink to Will and our grandchildren all say he was a very good, um. Uh at sport and I know uh Hobie was saying when he was doing so well at rugby. William would have been proud of me, wouldn't he? You know, it's really nice and they, you know, there are pictures all of him.

• 33:56Speaker 01

  Around and even though the grandchildren didn't know him, they know all about him.

• 34:02Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, that's so lovely.

• 34:03Speaker 01

  But some people don't want to do that. They want to forget it and have a new life, but um he he. Is uh is still part of our lives.

• 34:13Fearne Cotton?

  Um. There's no ru- rulebook when it comes to grief.

• 34:15Speaker 01

  There's no rule with grief at all.

• 34:16Fearne Cotton?

  You have to do it on your own way.

• 34:17Speaker 01

  And um uh my, I now and friends, many of my friends uh at my age. Are losing the other half and I always talk about them or find something nice to say. And I think people like that. I know I did. I loved it if people came up and said, oh. Will was such a smashing chap. Wasn't he a good tennis player or whatever? And you know, I'm proud and I think if one and. If there is a sadness in the family to find something nice to say about them or something. Uh we remember about them.

• 34:55Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 34:56Speaker 01

  It helps people pass the time.

• 34:58Fearne Cotton?

  You say in the book that around this time, one of your friends, one of your neighbours invited you to the Chelsea Flower Show and you weren't.

• 35:05Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 35:06Fearne Cotton?

  Particularly keen at this point on leaving the house, being around other people, but you actually managed to push through.

• 35:12Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 35:13Fearne Cotton?

  And you went and you've got no regrets.

• 35:15Speaker 01

  I had no regrets and she asked me, Will died in January, she asked me in January. Uh she said, I've just got two tickets or whatever. And I thought, oh, thank you very much, Claire, thank you very much. And um then, of course, as it got nearer, I was feeling a bit more outward looking. And I went and bought a new jacket and of course, it it really started me off, realised that we have to go on.

• 35:43Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 35:43Speaker 01

  And of course, Chelsea is something that is such a good day out.

• 35:48Fearne Cotton?

  Do you still love going?

• 35:50Speaker 01

  Oh, yes, I'm there for a couple of days this year.

• 35:53Fearne Cotton?

  So good. I've only been once, but I loved it. It's just a feast of colour and creativity. It's so beautiful.

• 36:01Speaker 01

  Lot of ideas that you can copy. And when you see the height of certain plants, you remember that, which are the ones to put at the front of the border and which are the ones to put at the back. And that's what I've learnt in my gardening life, you know. To begin with, I would, you know, just go to the nursery, get a plant and not bother to read how tall it got. And, you know, things went, and also, because we have quite a big bed, gardening bed, I always buy three, you know, one looks a bit lost.

• 36:37Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 36:38Speaker 01

  And a group always looks better, in threes or fives or whatever. Depends what it is.

• 36:44Fearne Cotton?

  I've dog-eared a page in your book here, Mary, because it says on page 114, I'm addicted to ferns.

• 36:54Speaker 01

  Oh, sweet.

• 36:57Fearne Cotton?

  There it is, a print. What is it about ferns that you love? I mean, there are loads of ferns. People don't realise this. There's so many varieties. What do you love about ferns?

• 37:05Speaker 01

  I really love ferns because they like shade.

• 37:09Fearne Cotton?

  Yes.

• 37:09Speaker 01

  They like shade, they like damp. So if you've got a wet part of the garden, they don't need too much looking after. I cram them in there and we do water them.

• 37:19Fearne Cotton?

  Yes.

• 37:20Speaker 01

  And I remember going to Highgrove years ago, or the King, he was Prince Charles's garden, and they had a lot of ferns there and it was very damp around them. They really do, to start with, the first few years, they need to be damp. Once they're fully rooted, they can manage without so much water. But I know that the more I water mine, because they're only two or three years old, the better they are.

• 37:48Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, I relate. I drink a lot of water and I'm low maintenance.

• 37:52Speaker 01

  I do not drink a lot of water.

• 37:55Fearne Cotton?

  I know, I remember this about you. When we did that TV show together, we made a roulade. We had, I think I was grabbing a glass of water and I think you told me you just, you don't drink it.

• 38:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, but my mother was a hundred and five.

• 38:08Fearne Cotton?

  Which is mad.

• 38:10Speaker 01

  Mad. And she had water at lunch and water with supper and nothing else. And I don't drink a lot of water. Mind you, I don't race about an awful lot. I'm at a, you're at a fast pace and running and things like that. But I don't drink an awful lot, but you must do what your doctor says and what you're advised. Don't listen to me, but you can listen to me about gardening, but not about how much water.

• 38:40Fearne Cotton?

  I mean, my parents don't ever drink it. They drink about 20 cups of tea a day, but no water. They can't stand it. They don't like the, the nothingy taste of it.

• 38:49Speaker 01

  Well, it's liquid, isn't it?

• 38:50Fearne Cotton?

  It's just that you've just got to chug it down and get on with it.

• 38:56Speaker 05

  Hey, we're Nick and Jack, hosts of the best one yet. Behind every episode, there's research, emails, spreadsheets and our shared Google Doc, the headline hammer. With Google Workspace with Gemini, Google's AI is built right into the premium versions of tools we already use, like Gmail, Docs and Sheets. No new tools or extra logins, just personalized AI for the way we work. That means less time on the work around the work and more time finding the stories worth talking about. Get AI tools for work. Upgrade to Google Workspace with Gemini at goo.gle/workspacewithGemini. That's goo.gle/workspacewithGemini.

• 39:30Speaker 06

  Hello, I'm Joanna Fletcher.

• 39:32Speaker 07

  And I'm Marco Bortella.

• 39:33Speaker 06

  And this is Boots Off.

• 39:36Speaker 07

  We are friends who have spent a decade together, walking up mountains, across deserts and along coastlines with some seriously awesome groups of humans.

• 39:44Speaker 06

  And something happens when you're out there, feet on the ground, surrounded by nature. The conversations just spill out of you.

• 39:51Speaker 07

  This series is about the adversities that lead to adventure.

• 39:54Speaker 06

  The adventures that lead to adversity.

• 39:56Speaker 07

  And how life can be one big adventure in itself.

• 39:59Speaker 06

  Listen every Thursday. Just search for Boots Off.

• 40:06Fearne Cotton?

  Let's talk about your mum being 105 is something we can't breeze over because that is a substantial number we're talking here. You're 91, your mum was 105. You've obviously got something and your dad lived into his, was it late 80s?

• 40:24Speaker 01

  Yes, early 80s, actually. I think genes are very important.

• 40:30Fearne Cotton?

  Yes.

• 40:32Speaker 01

  And if, I mean, if you've got your health, which thank God I have, and I do the things that I should do, and I eat sensibly, I'm very fortunate. But in the back of it, it's your genes.

• 40:47Fearne Cotton?

  Do you think there's something to be said for having a passion? I often think when, like, look at David Attenborough, who's just turned 100. I feel like his passion is something that gets him out of bed every day. It's just been this constant throughout his life. I think there's something to be said for having great passions. I mean, you've got many.

• 41:07Speaker 01

  Having, having passion, yes, definitely. Or having a purpose. And I do think it's important to contribute in this life. If you live in a village or a street, to know your neighbours, to be aware, you know, if this one, two doors down, and she's rather old, can you put the bins out for them? It's contributing. I say that because yesterday, our help was away and we had very heavy bins. And our builder was passing and he said, I see the bins are out, can I put yours out? You know, it's contributing.

• 41:46Fearne Cotton?

  That's so wonderful. Did you quiz your mum much about her longevity and?

• 41:51Speaker 01

  Not really, but I was quite close to my mum and she did look after an awful lot of people. She, she started the Friends of the RUH Hospital in Bath because she suddenly realised, this was a long time ago, that the beds had no curtains round. Whenever anything was in a ward, everybody could see what was going on. So she knew some of the doctors and she's got hold of all the surgeons and doctors' wives and said, do you realise that the service in the hospital's wonderful, but could we knock up together and

• 42:34Speaker 01

  raise money for the little extra things in the hospital?

• 42:38Fearne Cotton?

  Too right.

• 42:38Speaker 01

  And she did, and it's still going now.

• 42:41Fearne Cotton?

  How wonderful. That's so amazing.

• 42:43Speaker 01

  And the coffee shop she started.

• 42:45Fearne Cotton?

  No way.

• 42:46Speaker 01

  So, you know, it's it's contributing, doing things, helping.

• 42:49Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 42:50Speaker 01

  A busy mind is a happy person.

• 42:52Fearne Cotton?

  Hmm. I like to think that. I have to always have a project or something that I'm, a painting I'm working on, a book I'm writing, or I can't, I'm not very good at being idle.

• 43:03Speaker 01

  You don't need to worry. You've got such a busy life.

• 43:06Fearne Cotton?

  I've got a lot going on. A happy life. It's so important. And also, you've been married for a very long time. Sixty?

• 43:14Speaker 01

  Yes, sixty years this year.

• 43:15Fearne Cotton?

  And you've got some beautiful wedding pictures in your book. Oh, there's a gorgeous picture of you getting married, isn't there? I think it's quite early on.

• 43:24Speaker 01

  I remember the flowers.

• 43:26Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, it's just a gorgeous black and white photo. What do you think? I mean, like, divorce rates are obviously through the roof in this day and age. What do you think creates? There we go. There's the picture.

• 43:37Speaker 01

  Oh, yes. Well, that's the cake. I did make the cake and we didn't get round to icing it very much. And we just went in the garden on the morning and picked a few bits and bobs and put it all round. I had the vase on top.

• 43:52Fearne Cotton?

  What was it? Just a, was it a Vicky sponge?

• 43:53Speaker 01

  No, no, no. In those days, you always had fruit.

• 43:56Fearne Cotton?

  Fruitcake. Yes, of course.

• 43:57Speaker 01

  We've been married sixty years and I think.

• 44:00Fearne Cotton?

  Astonishing.

• 44:01Speaker 01

  We, we've never had a crossword. I can't bear shouting.

• 44:05Fearne Cotton?

  No.

• 44:05Speaker 01

  And, you know, we're both the same. And again, the garden comes in and even if I hadn't garden, I would walk out of the front door, you know. When you think, I can't believe that he's done that, or how stupid, you know, I will walk into the garden.

• 44:23Fearne Cotton?

  Yes.

• 44:23Speaker 01

  And walk round and think, now, am I going to say something? I think we'll just let it pass.

• 44:29Fearne Cotton?

  It's a good idea, remove yourself from the scene.

• 44:32Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 44:33Fearne Cotton?

  Have some headspace, bit of distance, work out whether it's worth saying the thing or not.

• 44:37Speaker 01

  And also, I think to, to, to say sorry.

• 44:41Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 44:42Speaker 01

  I went to, I've been to, um, a girlfriend's has three sons. And at each of the weddings of these sons, yeah, you know, the vicar, this was the lady vicar, uh, talk to them, uh, uh, and you can hear what they're saying, uh, at the altar. And, um, to each of these boys, she said, remember to say sorry.

• 45:06Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 45:06Speaker 01

  Or to both of them, because it's rather difficult, because you always think you're perfect. And it does help to say sorry.

• 45:13Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, my gosh, I completely agree. The one thing, you know, as parents, it's always hard raising kids. You're going to mess up constantly. You're going to have good days and bad days. But the one thing I'll always do is say sorry. If I've, you know, had a go at one of them or I've been a bit grumpy, I'll always say, I'm sorry, mum's tired today. And now in return, they're so quick to do the same. If one of them's, you know, my son even last night said, oh, sorry, I was being grumpy after school. And I was like, it's okay, it's all good. It's, it's a really good practice to have, I think.

• 45:45Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 45:45Fearne Cotton?

  Really good practice. So at the age of 91, when you look back over the years, what are the important things that really stand out to you? The, the moments in your life where you've really learned valuable lessons or, or just moments that feel extremely important?

• 46:04Speaker 01

  I think one of the most important things in life is to be kind.

• 46:10Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 46:10Speaker 01

  It, it takes a bit of thinking about. And, um, to be kind, to be helpful, to be tolerant.

• 46:20Speaker 01

  And I'm not always right.

• 46:22Fearne Cotton?

  Hmm, none of us are, none of us are. And do you have any regrets?

• 46:27Speaker 01

  Um, rather like you did, I wish I'd talked more to my, my father, who was quite brisk. Um, I should have talked and spent more time with him. But of course, when you, I came to London to work and I would go down at weekends and see friends. And I should have spent more time with them.

• 46:49Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, I think most of us feel like that about a grandparent, a parent, you know, you think, oh, I wish I'd asked for more stories. That's what I'm craving from my, my nan, certainly, like all of those brilliant life stories. Because of course, they had a whole life before they became parents, before they became grandparents. And it's so interesting. Many of our listeners, Mary, will be around my age, you know, in their kind of forties, younger and older. But a fair few of them will be around mid forties. If you could say anything to Mary in her mid forties, what advice would you give her?

• 47:24Speaker 01

  Um.

• 47:27Speaker 01

  I think don't make rash decisions. Um, you know, if something comes, you know, comes through a new job, a new thing, a new venture, whatever, sleep on it and do something about it the next morning. Uh, whenever I've sort of thought, oh, that'd be fun. I'll do it, you know, and I ring back and I think I should have waited. I should have thought, uh, and just, you know, make sure that you're going to make the right decision.

• 47:55Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, less haste.

• 47:56Speaker 01

  Less haste and think about it.

• 47:59Fearne Cotton?

  One of the important relationships in your life has been someone you mentioned a couple of times, lovely Lucy. Who I know, who you've worked with for, how would you say, thirty six years? An incredible partnership and a friendship that's grown out of a love of cooking. What does that relationship mean to you?

• 48:17Speaker 01

  It means the world, really. Um, she has become very wise and, um.

• 48:25Speaker 01

  She's the one, she won't let me pick up the phone because, you know, I'll have a someone will ask me to do something up in Manchester or something and I'll say, oh, that, oh, yes, of course I'll try and fit it. And Lucy says, I, she picks up the phone and if we've got a connection or whatever, and we'll try and fit these things in. But she really advises me what I'm to do. She's got an enormous smile, great knowledge. Uh, and she's terribly good with people.

• 48:56Fearne Cotton?

  Um, yeah, she's amazing.

• 48:58Speaker 01

  And we normally do things together.

• 49:00Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, I love that.

• 49:01Speaker 01

  And, uh, yes, we, we, she comes everywhere where I go and make sure I'm on time. Uh, and if it's something very smart, she said, you have to have makeup and I was always say, oh, no, no, it doesn't matter. Oh, yes, it doesn't.

• 49:17Fearne Cotton?

  She's so brilliant. It's such a good partnership.

• 49:19Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 49:20Fearne Cotton?

  It's important to have people like that in our lives.

• 49:22Speaker 01

  And we laugh a lot and we have a lot of fun.

• 49:24Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, it's wonderful. So we're also putting together a collection of songs that will make people feel really good. So every guest that comes on, I get them to choose a song or a piece of music that they find uplifting, makes them feel really jolly. Which song would you pick?

• 49:41Speaker 01

  Uh, oh, something from ABBA.

• 49:43Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, we haven't got any ABBA on our playlist so far. That's great. I know.

• 49:47Speaker 01

  Well, I don't mind which one.

• 49:49Fearne Cotton?

  Any ABBA song.

• 49:49Speaker 01

  I love Sailing.

• 49:50Fearne Cotton?

  Okay.

• 49:51Speaker 01

  No, that's not ABBA, is it? No, Sailing, uh, no.

• 49:55Fearne Cotton?

  Is that Rod Stewart?

• 49:56Speaker 01

  Yes, Rod Stewart. But, I mean, I like Rod Stewart and I, I like Sailing Rod Stewart and I like most of the ABBA songs.

• 50:02Fearne Cotton?

  Okay, we'll put an ABBA song on there, a good upbeat one, we'll put on there. And lastly, Mary Berry, where is your happy place?

• 50:10Speaker 01

  My happy place is with my family at home, preferably on a lovely spring day, outside, having a sort of easy lunch, lots of conversation and fun.

• 50:28Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, that sounds like the perfect day. Well, look, thank you so much for being here today. I urge. Anyone who either loves gardening or like me sees it on the horizon to read this book because not only is it packed with great stories, but it's got a lot of very useful tips and tricks and hacks for gardening. If you're a complete beginner or someone like you that is very used to gardening. So go get it. Mary Berry, My Gardening Life. Thank you so much for being with me today.

• 50:58Speaker 01

  I've loved it, Fern.

• 51:00Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, I loved that chat. What a treat. I mean, if you want, you can go back and listen to chat number one, which was lovely too. But this felt really in-depth and just so wonderful, magical. I would say if you've got a granny alive, a grandad alive, or someone in your life who's in their eighth or ninth century, quiz them, quiz them about life, get all the wisdom, get all the tips. This, this is, you know, we need to be learning about life and longevity from people who have lived long lives. I loved that conversation. Mary's book, My Gardening Life, is out now. Right, have you read our Happy Place Book

• 51:41Fearne Cotton?

  Club read for May? It was yesteryear. I mean, a lot of people have read this book. This book has been a global hit. And in a few days' time, author Caro Clarebrook will be here to talk about trad wife influencers, the manosphere, and finally having a novel published after many years of writing. It's a really lovely conversation. I think you're going to like it, especially you bookworms. In the meantime, a massive thanks again to Mary and to you lot. You are bloody wonderful.

• 52:29Fearne Cotton?

  Happy Place is researched by me, Fern Cotton. The producer is Anushka Tate at Happy Place Studios with studio engineering by Basil Oxtaby.

• 52:40Speaker 02

  Hey, we're Nick and Jack, hosts of The Best One Yet.

• 52:42Speaker 05

  Behind every episode, there's research, emails, spreadsheets, and our shared Google Doc, the headline hammer.

• 52:48Speaker 02

  With Google Workspace with Gemini, Google's AI is built right into the premium versions of tools we already use, like Gmail, Docs, and Sheets. No new tools or extra logins, just personalized AI for the way we work.

• 52:59Speaker 05

  That means less time on the work around the work and more time finding the stories worth talking about.

• 53:03Speaker 02

  Get AI tools for work. Upgrade to Google Workspace with Gemini at go.o.gle/workspacewithGemini.

• 53:10Speaker 05

  That's go.o.gle/workspacewithGemini.

• 53:14Speaker 06

  Hello, I'm Joanna Fletcher.

• 53:16Speaker 07

  And I'm Marco Burchella.

• 53:18Speaker 06

  And this is Boots Off.

• 53:21Speaker 07

  We are friends who have spent a decade together, walking up mountains, across deserts, and along coastlines with some seriously awesome groups of humans.

• 53:29Speaker 06

  And something happens when you're out there, feet on the ground, surrounded by nature. The conversations just spill out of you.

• 53:35Speaker 07

  This series is about the adversities that lead to adventure.

• 53:38Speaker 06

  The adventures that lead to adversity.

• 53:40Speaker 07

  And how life can be one big adventure in itself.

• 53:44Speaker 06

  Listen every Thursday. Just search for Boots Off.