Revisited: Love Is Not Enough with couples therapist Shawn McBride

We're taking some time off to bring you even more episodes of A Bit of Optimism that you're going to love! In the meantime, we're revisiting some of our favorite episodes, like this one with couples counselor Shawn McBride. Relationships are hard. No matter how much we like, respect, or love someone, conflict seems inevitable. But even as we fight and disagree, we can also learn the skills we need to resolve our problems. For over two decades, Shawn McBride has helped thousands of couples do the work to strengthen their relationships. And he has tons of practical advice. Shawn sat down with me to discuss the three biggest problems couples face, why I'm a huge fan of his Instagram, and how love can keep relationships afloat, but it's often not enough. This...is A Bit of Optimism. For more on Shawn and his work, check out: @couples_counseling_center @shawnmcbridespeaks and couplescounselingcenter.org

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:03Simon Sinek?

  Relationships, any kind of relationship is hard. No matter how much we like someone, respect someone, or love someone, it seems that disagreements and fighting are inevitable. And when conflict gets to a breaking point, many of us feel the urge to simply throw in the towel. That's where Sean McBride comes in. Sean is a couples therapist, and he runs a practice called the Couples Counseling Center. I actually found him on Instagram and have become a huge fan of his videos. He's helped thousands of couples learn the skills to do the work that makes relationships succeed. And he's got tons of practical advice. Even if you're not in a romantic relationship, I think you'll learn a lot from what Sean has to say. Because in all of our relationships,

• 0:48Simon Sinek?

  be they friends, family, or our colleagues, we could always do a little more. This is a bit of optimism.

• 0:59Simon Sinek?

  I am so glad that you joined me today. I found you on Instagram.

• 1:05Speaker 01

  Yes, sir.

• 1:05Simon Sinek?

  You know, and you were... I mean, there's no better way to put it. You were preaching.

• 1:11Speaker 01

  I'm a former pastor.

• 1:13Simon Sinek?

  Well, it definitely shows up.

• 1:16Simon Sinek?

  You were preaching the most brilliant metaphor to explain why some couples cannot communicate well. And your metaphor was that somebody is drowning.

• 1:29Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:30Simon Sinek?

  And you're throwing facts at them.

• 1:33Speaker 01

  Yes, yes.

• 1:35Simon Sinek?

  You know, I'm drowning. Well, there's a sign that says no swimming.

• 1:39Speaker 01

  No swimming down the door.

• 1:41Simon Sinek?

  I'm drowning. It says no lifeguard.

• 1:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:44Simon Sinek?

  And the amount of times that we are in relationships where somebody says, "I'm in pain, I'm hurt, I'm sad", and we throw facts at them.

• 1:52Speaker 01

  That's it.

• 1:54Simon Sinek?

  And it doesn't work. And the way you captured this dynamic made so much sense.

• 2:02Speaker 01

  Good.

• 2:03Simon Sinek?

  Your ability, and I've watched many of your videos since I'm a, count me as a huge fan. Your ability to capture the discomfort and speed bumps of a relationship in a way that the rest of us can understand, in my opinion, is better than anyone I've ever heard.

• 2:22Speaker 01

  Oh, wow. I'm honored. The check's in the mail. What's the address? The check's in the mail. Thank you. Thank you, Simon.

• 2:29Simon Sinek?

  So let's take a step back, right?

• 2:31Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:31Simon Sinek?

  You're not like the average counselor.

• 2:34Speaker 01

  No, sir. No, sir.

• 2:35Simon Sinek?

  Let's be honest. The average counselor will be like, so what do you think? Would you like to respond to what your partner just said? You are unabashedly opinionated.

• 2:45Speaker 01

  That's it. Let's get to it. Let's get to it. Let's fix this right now.

• 2:52Simon Sinek?

  So obviously, couples come to you because things aren't working. I have a few questions. What are the more common things that people come to you for that it's just a recurring?

• 3:04Speaker 01

  I need one, two, and three. Sean, how do we communicate better? Number two, Sean, how do we resolve conflict? Number three, Sean, how do we recover from infidelity, from cheating? Those are the top three issues that I deal with every single week in my private counseling office, whether in person or virtually online.

• 3:26Simon Sinek?

  Okay, so let's, let's unpackage it. Are there some basic steps on how we can learn to communicate better?

• 3:33Speaker 01

  So number one, it starts with listening. Okay, I often tell people, uh, our creator gave us two ears in one mouth for a reason. Right? Why do we have two ears in one mouth? Because we should listen more than we speak. So effective communication starts with listening, but it doesn't stop with listening. Once you listen with your ears, you have to be sure that you're hearing.

• 4:02Speaker 01

  What your partner's communicating. My wife and I have raised five children. They're all adults now. And when they were little, we used to say, hey, clean your room. Hey, son, go clean your room. Hey, daughter, clean your room. They listened because they have ears. But when you go check the room, you see that it's not clean. That means that you didn't hear me. Okay, you listened with your ears, but you didn't hear me. So part of effective communication is being sure that you're not just listening to your partner. But do you hear what they're saying?

• 4:34Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 4:35Speaker 01

  Hearing leads to understanding. And understanding leads to resolving the conflict.

• 4:44Simon Sinek?

  But most people, especially men.

• 4:46Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 4:47Simon Sinek?

  Think they're great listeners.

• 4:49Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 4:50Simon Sinek?

  Because they heard the words spoken. They are pretty sure they heard.

• 4:55Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 4:55Simon Sinek?

  They can recite back what they heard.

• 4:58Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 4:58Simon Sinek?

  So where are people failing to listen? Like, what is the gap there?

• 5:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, so here's the gap, Simon. Great question. Typically, when a couple's trying to communicate and resolve something. Number one, there is minimization. One or the other will minimize how a person feels or what that person is saying. Oh, well, it's not that big of a deal. Or how could you be upset about that? Or that really doesn't make sense. So they minimize their partner's feelings. And feelings are important. Emotions are very important. And so you can't just minimize what a person says or how a person feels. The second thing that happens is there's a lot of dismissing that's going on.

• 5:46Speaker 01

  When you're talking to me and I dismiss it as, oh, you're just being overly sensitive. Or, oh, you just had a bad day. No, what I feel is what I feel. My feelings matter. So if there's minimization, if there's dismissiveness, and here's the big one. In conversation, sometimes your partner's not being validated. Their feelings are not being validated. Validation is very simple. You're making valid what feeling your partner has. If they're angry, you're validating that anger. If they're sad, you're validating the sadness. Validation is not agreement. It doesn't mean, okay, I agree with everything you're saying, but I can make valid in this moment,

• 6:31Speaker 01

  how you feel, your anger, your sadness, your fear, your shame, whatever you're feeling. So dismissiveness, minimizing your partner and not validating your partner, leads to more chaos and confusion.

• 6:43Simon Sinek?

  Oh, I'm feeling guilty as you're saying it. Because I, I'm literally thinking of conversations I've had where, you know, my partner has told me their feelings and I'm proud I wasn't dismissive. I absolutely validated.

• 6:55Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 6:56Simon Sinek?

  And unfortunately, I did not pass the first test where I absolutely have said, that's so not a big deal.

• 7:03Speaker 01

  To you, it's not a big deal. But that's like saying to your partner who's drowning in the pool.

• 7:09Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 7:10Speaker 01

  It's no big deal. People drown all the time. You know, people fall in the pool all the time as they're drowning.

• 7:17Simon Sinek?

  Right, right.

• 7:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:19Simon Sinek?

  Okay, all right, let's go to number two, conflict.

• 7:22Speaker 01

  There's typically four responses to conflict in a relationship. Fight, flight, freeze, fall. So in conflict, someone is the fighter. They're gonna scream, they're gonna yell, they're gonna argue, they're gonna fuss, they're gonna cuss, because they wanna solve the conflict. So we call that a fighter. Then there's a flighter, someone that flees. Conflict arises, they flee, they run. There's a song on the radio, I forget the musician, but it says, she's a runner, she's a track star. She's gonna run away when it gets hard, right? So you got your fighter, you got the flighter. Then you have the freezer. This person completely shuts down.

• 8:02Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 8:02Speaker 01

  And the shutdown may be for an hour, it may be for a day, it may be for multiple days. So they completely freeze and it takes them a while to unthaw. And then there's the fourth. Person that's a fawn. A fawn is typically a people pleaser. They go along to get along. Typically, people who fawn have some kind of abuse in their childhood. And so to not get beat, to not get whipped, to not get cussed out, they just fawn. And so we bring some in that baggage into relationships. So, so we never learned how to deal with fight, flight, freeze, fawn. And we bring it into relationship.

• 8:43Speaker 01

  And now you got two people that don't have any skills in communication in resolving conflict. Two people that don't have any tools, okay? They get married, they start dating, they get engaged. And they just don't know what to do to resolve the conflict. And that's where I come in.

• 9:03Simon Sinek?

  I've experienced all of those and I've been

• 9:05Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 9:06Simon Sinek?

  At least a couple of them. Now walk me through when in the heat of an argument. Where anger and irrational thoughts are running through me. How do I assess and what skills do I call upon to at least take the first step for resolution?

• 9:21Speaker 01

  So I use this little analogy called smart love, S M A R T. In resolving conflict, in having better communication, the S in smart love stands for self-awareness. It is up to you, it is up to me, it is up to your partner. You have to be self-aware of what you are feeling. You have to be self-aware of your emotions. In this moment, am I angry? In this moment, as am I saying? People go into conflict and people try to communicate. And they are clueless into what they are really feeling. And I find this with a lot of men, that men

• 10:04Speaker 01

  a lot of times can't describe and can't break down. A guy will come to me for counseling, hey man, what are you feeling? I don't know. I just feel, you know? What, what, what to describe it? Like, like break it down? I just, I just feel something. And so I have to help particularly men work through feelings of anger.

• 10:24Speaker 01

  Feelings of sadness or disappointment. And there are many ways you can describe these feelings or feelings of shame or feelings of fear. Right? So you have to have, first of all, a self-awareness. What am I feeling in this moment? If you don't know what you're feeling in this moment, it's going to be hard to communicate to your partner. Remember, we're trying to get understanding. The M in smart love, Simon, is managing whatever that emotion is. So if I'm angry, I gotta manage that. That is not the responsibility of my wife or my partner. If I'm sad, I gotta own that.

• 11:06Speaker 01

  I have to manage that and not blame my partner for my sadness. If I'm afraid, that belongs to me. That fear is mine. I gotta be able to manage that. And I think if people can get just those first two, let me be self-aware of what I'm feeling. And then let me manage that. Typically, we can cool things down a little bit in the midst of that conflict.

• 11:32Simon Sinek?

  So I'm allowed to be angry, but I'm not allowed to yell and lash out?

• 11:36Speaker 01

  Absolutely not.

• 11:37Simon Sinek?

  That's managing anger, right?

• 11:38Speaker 01

  That's managing anger because, and I even, in my own marriage, my, my wife was verbally abused up to the age of 17. We've been married, Simon, 30 years. And so early on in my marriage, I was making the big mistake of yelling and raising my voice and saying this and saying that. And my wife couldn't handle that. Now, I learned that behavior from my own mother. Because as a little boy in my home, I watched how my mother handled conflict. My mother was a yeller, my mother was a screamer, so she was the fighter. And my mother was also the fighter. So she would fight and then she would run. My father was the freezer and the forener.

• 12:21Speaker 01

  And so we all learned how to communicate somewhere for better or for worse. And typically, it's in our childhood.

• 12:29Simon Sinek?

  Hmm. Okay, so we got the, we have the, we have the self-awareness, we have the management. What are the ART?

• 12:36Speaker 01

  So you got to acknowledge your partner's feelings. Awareness of what your partner is feeling. That's the A. I often talk about connecting before correcting.

• 12:52Speaker 01

  Okay, connect with your partner on an emotional level before you try to correct your partner on a rational level. Having an awareness, what is my partner feeling?

• 13:03Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 13:04Speaker 01

  And then the R is reading your partner's emotions with sympathy and empathy, which is two totally different things. So back to the pool analogy. Sympathy says, when I read my partner's emotions with sympathy, what that says is I care. You're in a pool, you're drowning. Sympathy, you know what, I care. Here's a life vest. Here's a life preserver. But Simon, empathy goes to a deeper level. Because empathy doesn't just say like sympathy, I care. Empathy says, I feel what you feel, and I'm going to prove it by diving in the pool.

• 13:47Speaker 01

  I'm going to risk my own safety so that I can understand you at a level that I can connect with you. And you can't do that standing on the edge. You can't do that unless you get in the pool with the person.

• 14:03Simon Sinek?

  What does that look like practically in the middle of a conflict? To be able to jump in the pool with somebody?

• 14:07Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. To be able to validate that anger and say, boy, if I were in your shoes, now that I understand your anger, I would feel the same way. Oh, my goodness, you're disappointed. You're down. Oh, my, let me empathize with you. If the tables were turned.

• 14:28Simon Sinek?

  That's it.

• 14:29Speaker 01

  Simon, I would feel the same way.

• 14:31Simon Sinek?

  That's it. So you're not gaslighting, making them feel crazy for feeling like they're drowning. You're saying if I were in your shoes, I would feel like I was drowning too.

• 14:39Speaker 01

  Absolutely. Because Simon, think about it. If you dive in the pool.

• 14:43Simon Sinek?

  Yep.

• 14:43Speaker 01

  Now you can see things from their vantage point.

• 14:47Simon Sinek?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 14:48Speaker 01

  You can't see that on the edge spitting facts, although the facts are true. You can't really understand it until you get into the pool and surround yourself with all the fear and the water in your lungs and all of that.

• 15:04Simon Sinek?

  So good. And T?

• 15:06Speaker 01

  Together.

• 15:08Speaker 01

  We journey in the land of emotions. Together, we journey in the land of emotions. We make a big deal about emotions. We make a big deal about understanding emotions. We celebrate emotions. See, Simon, intimacy is not just sex. Intimacy, where I come from, is into me I see. And the way that you can really see into a person is when you understand their emotions. Simon, we've made emotions to be this bad thing. As a little boy growing up, I was taught, "Stop being angry," or "Stop crying," or, you know, so I was taught to suppress my emotions.

• 15:52Speaker 01

  But as, so I became a grown man and I started to still suppress things like this is not working. So through counseling and therapy, I had to realize and to learn it's okay to have emotion. It's okay to express emotion. It's okay to work through emotion. That's how you get closer with your partner.

• 16:13Simon Sinek?

  Brilliant. So in your first, the first example, you know, I realize I'd done some of those things. In this particular example, I'm very proud that I'm thinking of a successful situation.

• 16:21Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 16:22Simon Sinek?

  Where my partner and I were fighting.

• 16:26Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 16:26Simon Sinek?

  And the fight looked like this. I told her everything I was doing right. And then I told her everything she was doing wrong.

• 16:35Speaker 01

  Ah, not good.

• 16:36Simon Sinek?

  She responded by saying everything she was doing right and everything I was doing wrong. And this went backwards and forwards as if it were a tennis match. And I was aware, I had awareness, I had self-awareness, I started with the S. And what went through my mind was, I see what's going on here.

• 16:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:56Simon Sinek?

  And this is not working.

• 16:57Speaker 01

  This is not working.

• 16:58Simon Sinek?

  Like this tennis match is going to go on forever and it's, it's one of us, we're going to get to the point where one of us is going to say something really mean.

• 17:06Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 17:06Simon Sinek?

  We weren't there yet, but I could see how this movie plays out.

• 17:09Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 17:09Simon Sinek?

  And I remember literally interrupting. I said, babe, this is clearly not going to resolve. And neither of us is going to win this.

• 17:19Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 17:20Simon Sinek?

  I would like to propose new rules for our argument. Because we're going to argue. I'm okay with that.

• 17:25Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 17:26Simon Sinek?

  I would like to propose new rules for this argument, for this game. My rule is, I will now, instead of telling you everything I did right and you did wrong, I will now say what you did right and what I did wrong, and then it's going to be your turn. And I'll go first. And I said, babe, you nailed this. You got this right. And here's where I screwed it up. And she looked at me and said, well, here's what I got wrong and you got right. And now we were practicing your T-togetherness, where we were celebrating what the other person got right. And for the first time, we could see that the other person wasn't wrong, but that they were trying.

• 18:00Speaker 01

  Yes, yes.

• 18:01Simon Sinek?

  And that we weren't necessarily helping the situation. Because we were, so we saw each other as complicit in the tension.

• 18:10Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 18:10Simon Sinek?

  We saw ourselves as complicit in the tension, and we saw them as attempting to alleviate the tension. And I got to tell you very quickly.

• 18:17Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 18:18Simon Sinek?

  The tension.

• 18:19Speaker 01

  The tension subsided.

• 18:20Simon Sinek?

  It subsided. We sat closer together. We started smiling. And we could actually get to the point of being rational and then like trying to figure out, how did we get in the fight in the first place?

• 18:31Speaker 01

  Yes. Simon, that is such a powerful principle. That is such great rules of engagement. I love it because it expresses humility. But more importantly, it expresses, here it is, appreciation for your partner's perspective. Simon, every counseling session, I end every couple's counseling session, the last five to seven minutes, having that couple look at each other and share a couple of appreciations.

• 19:03Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 19:04Speaker 01

  Because Simon, just think about it. When you first started dating, there was a great sense of appreciation.

• 19:11Simon Sinek?

  Yeah, for sure.

• 19:11Speaker 01

  For your partner's perspective. And, and, and this is new. And, and you value, you value that perspective and you validate the perspective and you love the perspective. And come on, give me some more perspectives. But once you've been dating a year, or two years, or three years, you stop appreciating.

• 19:33Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 19:34Speaker 01

  The perspective. You stop appreciating the difference. So I encourage couples every single day. Make a deposit into your relationship by telling your partner one thing you appreciate about him, one thing you appreciate about her, and watch what happens. In most relationships, couples are making more, if the relationship is a bank account.

• 19:56Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 19:57Speaker 01

  They are making more withdrawals.

• 20:00Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 20:00Speaker 01

  Than they are deposits. When you're making deposits, you're intentionally looking for things to be grateful for. You are intentionally looking for things to appreciate your partner for. So now you're on this quest to say, you know what? First of all, I accept you for who you are.

• 20:22Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 20:23Speaker 01

  Not for who I want you to become. See, a lot of couples get into relationship in the back of their mind, I'm gonna change him. I'm a changer. No, no, you don't go into a relationship to change people. In a relationship, if you go into it to be served, that's not gonna work. Cause that's a lot of selfishness. But if you go into it to serve, to give of yourself. One of the greatest quotes of all time, it is better to give than it is to receive. And so oftentimes in relationships, we're looking to get and we're looking to take. And I'm saying, no, we have to go into it. How can I serve my partner? How can I love my partner better? How can I give to my partner?

• 21:06Simon Sinek?

  One of the best things I ever learned, and thank goodness I learned it early in, in the relationship was that both partners, or at least I, show up every day with the fantasy that my partner can read my mind. You know, like, how did you not know that I...?

• 21:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:24Simon Sinek?

  You should have known that I...? Dot, dot, dot.

• 21:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:27Simon Sinek?

  You know?

• 21:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:29Simon Sinek?

  I just, and I just love that, that we show up with the fantasy that our partners can read our minds and instantaneously like.

• 21:34Speaker 01

  Our partners cannot. So in communication, in a relationship, what do you want? What do you mean? Break it down.

• 21:43Simon Sinek?

  We are students in our own relationships.

• 21:45Speaker 01

  Yes, we are.

• 21:46Simon Sinek?

  And for years, like, like these little nuances, like, I grew up in a different country. And so sometimes the language I use or the points of view that I have are different than where I live now. And my partner is on an education and I can't be frustrated if my student doesn't understand something. I have to be, I have to be a good teacher and be like, ah, here's what I meant. But likewise, I am the student as well.

• 22:09Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 22:10Simon Sinek?

  And if our teacher gets mad at us for not understanding, we can say, hey, I'm the idiot. I didn't understand. You need to teach me your point of view so that I can learn it. So this doesn't happen again. So the next time you say it, you can say it in the shorthand next time and I'll understand.

• 22:26Speaker 01

  Yes, yes. And doing that with patience.

• 22:30Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 22:30Speaker 01

  Doing that with grace, doing that in calmness. Hey, teach me. I don't understand. Hey, rather than fighting, rather than, I don't understand. So I'm out of here.

• 22:44Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 22:44Speaker 01

  Or I don't understand. So I'm a freeze up on you for a week. Right?

• 22:49Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 22:49Speaker 01

  So, so being able to communicate in a kind way.

• 22:53Simon Sinek?

  So we have one more to get to, which is infidelity. But before we do that.

• 22:56Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 22:57Simon Sinek?

  Before we do that, I want to interrupt with

• 22:59Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 23:00Simon Sinek?

  an observation, which is one of the main reasons I wanted you on here. One of the reasons I love you is because all relationships are the same, whether it's a romantic relationship or a work relationship. And in work relationships, we have communication breakdowns, we have conflict, we have power dynamics, we have misunderstandings, we have misuse of language, all, everything that you and I have said.

• 23:23Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 23:23Simon Sinek?

  Everything you and I have talked about is transferable.

• 23:26Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 23:27Simon Sinek?

  Is transferable to a work environment because all relationships are emotional, even at work. The reason I'm interrupting now to bring that up is because as we get into the third one, which is infidelity, you don't really have infidelity in a work environment. I guess you could go give something to your competitor, but that doesn't really happen much. But it's what we're talking about is the complete break of trust.

• 23:48Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 23:49Simon Sinek?

  And so I wanted to, I wanted to share that we're, we're about to talk about infidelity has application to any relationship where there's a complete break in trust.

• 23:58Speaker 01

  Yes, yes.

• 24:00Simon Sinek?

  Sean McBride.

• 24:01Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 24:01Simon Sinek?

  Infidelity. How do you help couples overcome the trauma of trusting someone who just at every core of what a relationship is supposed to be, they violate that trust? And how do they repair it?

• 24:15Speaker 01

  It's very hard, Simon. It's one of the most painful, difficult, arduous conversations that I have during the course of the week when couples are trying to recover. Simon, I don't, I don't want to sound like I'm making excuses for anybody. But before we talk about the relationship, sometimes we have to go back. I never say to a man who's cheated or a woman who's cheated, what's wrong with you? I have a better question that Dr. Bruce Perry talks about in his book with Oprah Winfrey is, what happened to you?

• 24:56Speaker 01

  Because Simon, sometimes what is happening is connected to what happened, whether it's a man or a woman. And sometimes men and women go into these relationships with unresolved childhood trauma. What happens to a man or a woman in the first two decades of their life will influence them as adults for better or for worse. So when you talk about a child who's been abandoned, a child who's been neglected, a child who's been abused verbally, sexually, emotionally. And if, if that a person who's now, who's an adult,

• 25:42Speaker 01

  if that stuff is not unresolved, I'm not saying it's the reason they cheated. What I am saying is you have to include that in the conversation. Because some people in infidelity are trying to heal core wounds outside of their primary relationship. They're trying to get very basic needs met outside of their relationship. Because the relationship is not working. The relationship in their mind is not fixable. So, but I still have these needs. For, for a woman, she still wants conversation. She still wants affection.

• 26:25Speaker 01

  And so she can't get that in her primary relationship. She's human. I'm not saying it's right, but she'll seek it elsewhere. Okay? If you look at statistics, the number one reason that men cheat is not because of sex. What they're really seeking is admiration. What they're really seeking is respect. Sex becomes this secondary thing that happens. But they get connected to the woman because she admires him. She honors him. She makes him feel a certain way. Same thing with a woman. When a woman cheats, when you break it down, okay, what happened? It started with the conversation. Cause most women want two hours of conversation every day with their man. 14 hours of conversation a week.

• 27:09Speaker 01

  If they're starving for conversation. If that man is freezing. If he's flighting and not giving her conversation. She finds it elsewhere. Again, I'm not saying it's right. I'm saying here's what I've discovered with thousands of people. Why some people make that choice and recovering from it is very hard.

• 27:31Simon Sinek?

  And I think what you're also saying is you're not offering an excuse for the behavior.

• 27:35Speaker 01

  Absolutely not.

• 27:36Simon Sinek?

  What you're saying is that the person is still accountable for their behavior. But we want to understand the root of the behavior because we don't understand the root. The behavior will probably continue. It's accountability and.

• 27:48Speaker 01

  Accountability and, but Simon, what's interesting is. I would say 90% of the couples I've worked with. Through the process of recovering from infidelity. Either one of them acknowledges that while they are not responsible for the behavior.

• 28:08Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 28:08Speaker 01

  They contributed to the behavior.

• 28:10Simon Sinek?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 28:11Speaker 01

  They contributed by doing something, pushing the person away. Or not doing something that pushed the person away. And so this is what men and women are telling me.

• 28:23Simon Sinek?

  This is something I've learned in my own relationships as well, both professional and personal, which is.

• 28:27Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 28:27Simon Sinek?

  We both like to accuse the other person of having started the fight.

• 28:31Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 28:31Simon Sinek?

  And what I have learned is, yes, absolutely. And there is usually one person who started the fight. And almost always the other person poured gas on the fire.

• 28:40Speaker 01

  That's what I'm saying.

• 28:41Simon Sinek?

  Almost always, somebody started the fire, but invariably, the other person poured gas on the fire.

• 28:46Speaker 01

  Poured gas on it.

• 28:46Simon Sinek?

  We both fight about who started it, but the reality is, I either started it, or I made it worse.

• 28:51Speaker 01

  Oh, you made it worse.

• 28:52Simon Sinek?

  So I'm accountable. I bear some accountability for the fire that exists right now.

• 28:57Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 28:58Simon Sinek?

  And as you're speaking about the difficulties of resolving infidelity, it does go directly to work relationships as well, which is people who are secretive, people who hide information, maybe lie at work, is because they have been taken advantage of. They have been, they've had their ideas stolen.

• 29:16Speaker 01

  They don't feel safe to share.

• 29:18Simon Sinek?

  I had a teammate once, years ago, who would lie to me if she got anything wrong. She would just flat out lie. And we were going through a document that I could plainly see that the numbers didn't add up, literally. And I basically pointed out, say, "These don't add up." And she basically fought me and said, "They do." I don't understand why she's telling me they do add up when clearly they don't. So I'm rational now. So I now start doing math on a piece of paper, pointing out to her how she's wrong, and she's getting angrier and angrier. And I keep trying to show her the math is wrong. I later learned that she had a completely screwed up childhood with a very overbearing father, and judges her self-worth on her work product.

• 30:01Simon Sinek?

  And by me criticizing her work product, she took it as I was criticizing her entire self-worth. She wasn't defending the math. She was defending herself.

• 30:10Speaker 01

  Herself, yes.

• 30:12Simon Sinek?

  And fortunately, we had a good enough relationship that that came out. And I could learn that. And I could say, "Look, you telling me a mistake, I'll help you fix it. If you hide a mistake, or you lying to me about a mistake, I can't help you."

• 30:28Speaker 01

  Yes. And Simon, every couple has a story. Every couple, they have a background. They have, they typically have wounds. They typically have trauma. They typically have unresolved stuff in their life. That doesn't just change because you turn 30, or 40, or 50. Simon, I work with a lot of- I do a lot of work with African American men. I got guys coming to me in their sixties and seventies, Simon, who are trying to make sense of why they are, you know, making these mistakes at this particular stage in their lives. And what I try to help them to understand is because you've never connected the dots with your trauma from the past.

• 31:13Speaker 01

  I had a guy recently who committed infidelity and he's sixty five years old. And when you spend time and you break it down, he's been trying to prove something.

• 31:26Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 31:26Speaker 01

  Ever since he was fifteen years old. Again, I'm not making excuses for anybody, but I'm not the therapist that's just gonna write people off. Hey, you made a mistake. You're the worst person ever. You won't be the first person to commit adultery. You won't be the last person. Let's try to understand what happened therapeutically. Let's try to understand the dynamic so we can fix it, hold you accountable, so you never make that mistake again.

• 31:52Simon Sinek?

  Okay, now let's talk about the things that you have seen that actually make relationships work.

• 31:56Speaker 01

  Oh, good.

• 31:57Simon Sinek?

  I have to believe that there's more than just the opposite of what you're talking about. They're good at listening. They're good.

• 32:01Speaker 01

  Yes, yes.

• 32:03Simon Sinek?

  Like, what are the things that we can learn? That we can start a relationship and say, okay, here's what I know. Shaun's practice of decades and working with people, here are the common threads that he has found of great relationships that are the models that we should admire. These are the common threads.

• 32:19Speaker 01

  Yes. So, Simon, let me say, first of all, love is important, but it's not enough. Love can make the relationship work, but it's not enough. So in addition to, hey, we loved each other.

• 32:36Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 32:36Speaker 01

  If a relationship is not working, I try to take a couple back to the beginning of the relationship.

• 32:42Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 32:43Speaker 01

  What were you doing at the very beginning? Cause there's a reason you stayed this long. And typically, when you go back to the beginning. Number one, we spent a lot of time together. We made the relationship a priority. Because couples that play together stay together. A lot of couples who date, if they get married, they're getting married because they're having so much fun. They don't want it to end. And they say, let's do this forever. They get married and guess what they stopped doing? They stopped dating.

• 33:15Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 33:15Speaker 01

  So, so dating each other. I know it's very basic and elementary. But you would be shocked at the amount of people who are now married that no longer date. Because, listen, everything in their life is pulling away from the relationship. Now they have kids, now they have work, now they have in-laws, now they have responsibility. So, everything is pulling away. And if they are not dating, if they are not investing and spending time, they grow apart. So, love is important. Dating is important, spending time together. Uh, Simon, patience is a virtue. Listen, I've been married thirty years to the same woman.

• 33:59Speaker 01

  I'm not the guy I was thirty years ago. Simon, I don't even think I'm the guy I was five years ago.

• 34:05Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 34:06Speaker 01

  Patience is a virtue. People should go into relationships not as a sprint.

• 34:13Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 34:14Speaker 01

  But as a marathon. People are human. People mess up. People don't know how to communicate. People don't know how to resolve conflict. People say the wrong things. But you gotta be patient with your partner, right? Trust is important. Making sure that we don't do anything that's going to jeopardize the relationship. You know, as a former pastor, I've done a lot of weddings to have, to hold, to love, to cherish, for better, for worse, for richer, for poor, sickness and in health. Forsaking all others. Forsaking all others. In other words, we're not gonna let anybody get between us.

• 35:00Speaker 01

  We're gonna forsake them so we can be loyal to each other. So that loyalty, Simon, that we are loyal and committed to each other. I give you two more and I'm done. Being able to adjust. When you get into a relationship, your partner becomes a mirror. And if you love your partner, your partner loves you, you can learn from each other. Are you willing to make adjustments as your partner suggests? Cause we all have blind spots. As a therapist, I tell my clients, it's hard to see the picture when you're in the frame. I'm outside the frame. So I can point out things that y'all can't see because you're in the frame.

• 35:43Speaker 01

  Are you willing to adjust to the areas, the blind spots that your partner brings up? And the last one I'll give you, which is big. Simon, we gotta learn how to apologize. We have to learn in relationship to say, I'm sorry. Will you forgive me? Not just, I'm sorry. I own my mistake. I acknowledge my mistake. I said the wrong thing. I yelled, I shut, whatever. I'm sorry, will you forgive me? When couples get humble and are able to apologize. Simon, do you know how many times in 30 years of marriage, I've had to apologize to my wife? How many times she had to apologize to me?

• 36:28Speaker 01

  Isn't that the nature of relationships, whether in the workplace or in, in relationships, dating, engaged, married? To be able to say, I'm sorry.

• 36:39Simon Sinek?

  Saying you're sorry doesn't mean you're wrong. It just means you accept accountability for your role in the situation.

• 36:44Speaker 01

  Accept accountability, yeah.

• 36:46Simon Sinek?

  I really like the, I'm sorry, I'm accountable. And the ability to say, I'm sorry I yelled, I'm sorry I contributed, I'm sorry I pulled, poured gas on the fire. I'm sorry I started the fire, whatever it is. Will you forgive me? Apologizing is a humbling thing and it creates, it creates a lopsided balance in that dynamic. Will you forgive me evens it out that both in the couple have to be humble in that moment?

• 37:11Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 37:11Simon Sinek?

  That, that's an addition that I hadn't thought about before, which is incredibly, incredibly magical and powerful.

• 37:16Speaker 01

  And that's what keeps people together for a long time. Forgiveness. My parents have been married 55 years. If you ask them, what's the secret? We've been forgiving each other for fifty five years. My wife's parents were married forty five years before they passed. If you ask them forgiveness, we've been forgiving each other. If if people can't forgive, they shouldn't be in a relationship. Because if you're in a relationship, you're with another human being.

• 37:43Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 37:44Speaker 01

  Who's gonna make mistakes along the way.

• 37:47Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 37:47Speaker 01

  But being able to forgive is grand. It's golden.

• 37:52Simon Sinek?

  Can you tell me an experience you've had in your years of doing this? Or maybe it's one couple that you worked with that really stands out in your years of doing this? That if every couple was like this couple or every experience you had was like this one experience? You would be the most fulfilled person in the world.

• 38:07Speaker 01

  Boy, very specific. I'll give you a couple that came to me several years ago. On their last leg, last thread, married forty two years. So I'll use an older couple, married forty two years. And they are ready to call it quits. They're ready to give it up, grown children, grandchildren. Simon, number one, they did the work of therapy and counseling as a couple.

• 38:38Speaker 01

  So much to unpack. But I worked with them for a year. So much to work. You don't do that in fifty five minutes. You don't do that in two sessions. They committed themselves before we give up, before we throw in the towel. Let's meet with a third party to get perspective. I've worked with them for a year. Number two, they did individual work. Simon, when people get into a relationship, it goes back to how we started this conversation. They come into the relationship with baggage, with issues, with pain, with trauma. That they're thinking the relationship, the marriage, the boyfriend girlfriend's gonna fix. It doesn't.

• 39:22Speaker 01

  They did the individual work through individual therapy. So just think about it. A healthy me leads to a healthy we.

• 39:34Speaker 01

  We are better because I'm better, right? Because just showing up for couples counseling and therapy, just showing up for individual counseling and therapy doesn't solve the problem. You have to be intentional in doing the work. Simon, if I was a doctor and I wrote you a prescription for your bronchitis, okay, Simon, take this pill once a day for the next 14 days. If you don't take the medicine, you gonna be stuck with bronchitis. It is not just showing up, it's doing the work. Whether that work is reading, whether that work is dating, whether that work is daily appreciation,

• 40:15Speaker 01

  whether that work is having deeper conversations. Couples get better. Individuals get better when they choose to do the work. That couple I met with several years ago, married 42 years, that's 40 something now. This past Saturday night, the husband took me out for a steak dinner. He reached out to me and said, hey, I'm thinking about you. You saved our marriage, you saved our relationship. I want to take you to dinner. And I took him to the most expensive restaurant that I could find. I got the most expensive steak.

• 40:53Simon Sinek?

  You earned it.

• 40:54Speaker 01

  No, no, no. But he was just so appreciative. And again, even to this day, he is still doing the work.

• 41:03Simon Sinek?

  So, so of all of the couples you've helped, you've helped a lot of people. Not all of them were successful, but you've helped a lot, thousands of couples.

• 41:09Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 41:10Simon Sinek?

  Find solidity in their relationships. What is it specifically about this one couple? That's so amazing that you choose to talk about them and not any of the others right now?

• 41:22Speaker 01

  Oh, man, I don't know. They represent longevity. I think people give up on each other too soon. They just represent longevity to me. They represent a couple that's had every issue imaginable in their relationship. They've been through the fire, they've been through storms, ups and downs. They got married young, highs and lows. But 42 years later, when they're ready to walk away.

• 41:51Speaker 01

  They say, let's give it one more chance. Let's get help. And I don't know, Simon, I, I, I'm just an optimistic guy. I want every couple to win. I want every relationship to last forever. And I, I, I don't know. I just think if people can learn the skills and get the tools and be patient and keep working, that will have less breakups and more love, uh, and more unconditional love. So.

• 42:16Simon Sinek?

  Tell me an early, specific happy childhood memory, something I can relive with you.

• 42:21Speaker 01

  Boy, an early memory of childhood, I was three years old, moved out of a one bedroom apartment with four kids and two parents into our, our very first home in Maryland. My parents got their very first home, rent with the option to buy. And I remember that like it was yesterday, being in this, back then, what I thought was this mansion, you know? My parents getting that home was just, I'll never forget that. And, and, and growing up there and the experience is there. Christmas is there. Thanksgiving's there.

• 42:53Simon Sinek?

  What was it about that memory of the leaving the one bedroom apartment and going to the home? What is it about that memory that brings you such joy when you talk about it now?

• 43:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, security, growth, accomplishment for two poor, lower middle class African American parents who some way, somehow through a rent with an option to buy, got favor, didn't have the credit, but got favor with an owner who let them do that. And by the way, they've been living in that house for 50 years now. Same house for 50 years. So.

• 43:33Simon Sinek?

  So what I find magical is the way that you describe that childhood memory is very similar to the way that you described that couple. Which is, they started in a place.

• 43:45Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 43:46Simon Sinek?

  And they moved into a home. And they decided to make a life together that had the growth and the love and the family.

• 43:56Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 43:56Simon Sinek?

  And the reason after forty one years or forty something years, they decided not to just go to a therapist or have a session or two, but to commit an entire year of couples and individual therapy is because we've moved into a home and we could abandon an apartment, but you can't abandon a home.

• 44:13Speaker 01

  That's it. That's it. Simon, you're so wise. Great connection. Great connection.

• 44:19Simon Sinek?

  And, and like dating is an apartment.

• 44:21Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 44:22Simon Sinek?

  You know, it's a little cramped. It's a little, you know, it's, it provides some security. It provides some comfort. And if the dating doesn't survive, so you move into another apartment. There's not that much stuff. It's not that difficult. But when you, when you find yourself in relationship, you have decided you have moved from dating into, we are going to build a home. We're going to build a relationship. My couch becomes our couch.

• 44:46Speaker 01

  Me becomes we.

• 44:48Simon Sinek?

  Me becomes we, and we have children and, and just the same as your parents, which is, you know, we didn't have a lot.

• 44:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:55Simon Sinek?

  But we did the work. We had a little help from the outside. Somebody believed in us. We believed in ourselves and we built a home. And to throw that away

• 45:04Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 45:04Simon Sinek?

  is ignoring the work that has been done. And this is what I think your life's work sounds like. It has, and it is in your therapy, which is you've done the work. Why would you let that work go in vain? Like, if you've done no work, go ahead, date someone else. Move on. It's okay. But if you've done so much work to build a relationship, to, to learn how to fight, to learn how to listen, to learn the techniques, to learn the skills, don't let that effort go in vain. And I find that just poetry, to be honest.

• 45:37Speaker 01

  Yes, it's poetry. It's poetry. And Simon, we learn to.

• 45:42Speaker 01

  If through counseling and therapy, if we can get the individual help, we can break patterns, negative patterns, we can break cycles, we can get healed, we can become whole, we can become better, we can have greater understanding, rather than doing that with 20 different people over 10 years.

• 46:06Simon Sinek?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 46:07Speaker 01

  Like, like, there's, if you, if she keeps breaking up with you, maybe you're the common denominator, right?

• 46:13Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 46:14Speaker 01

  Or if you keep breaking up with her, so how do we break those cycles?

• 46:18Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 46:18Speaker 01

  How do we learn to live in love and peace and get healthy? And so I'm just a huge fan of counseling and therapy, which I think works as people do the work.

• 46:28Simon Sinek?

  You're a big fan of work. You're a big fan of doing the work.

• 46:31Speaker 01

  Doing the work, yes.

• 46:32Simon Sinek?

  Sean, are you free for the next four hours to keep talking?

• 46:35Speaker 01

  I wish, man.

• 46:37Simon Sinek?

  Because I absolutely love talking to you.

• 46:40Speaker 01

  Me too, man.

• 46:41Simon Sinek?

  You have taught me so much. You have challenged perspectives, you've given me tools.

• 46:45Speaker 01

  Bless you.

• 46:46Simon Sinek?

  I leave after this time with you, I hope, a better leader, a better partner, a better friend, because you are out there in the world spreading your gospel.

• 46:55Speaker 01

  Thank you, buddy.

• 46:57Simon Sinek?

  Thank you for inspiring us to continue to do the work. We've already come this far. It's worth that we keep fighting.

• 47:06Speaker 01

  Yes, indeed. You're very welcome. It's been my honor, it's been my privilege. Thank you. So great to meet you, Simon.

• 47:15Simon Sinek?

  If you enjoyed this podcast and would like to hear more, please subscribe wherever you like to listen to podcasts. And if you'd like even more optimism, check out my website, simoncinek.com, for classes, videos, and more. Until then, take care of yourself, take care of each other. A Bit of Optimism is a production of The Optimism Company. It's produced and edited by Lindsay Garbenius, David Ja, and Devin Johnson. Our executive producers are Henrietta Conrad and Greg Rudershen.