Cari Farver | The Disappearance, the Texts, and the Woman Who Wouldn’t Let Go (Part 1)

Support John's Youtube channel here: https://www.youtube.com/@LordanARTS On November 16, 2012, 37-year-old Cari Farver was reported missing by her mother, Nancy, after she suddenly stopped showing up for work and answering calls. No one had seen Cari since the morning of November 13, but her phone was active, sending messages and posting online, making it seem like she hadn’t disappeared at all. Still, Nancy was adamant something was wrong. The messages didn’t sound like Cari. As detectives began looking into Cari’s disappearance, they started receiving reports that she was stalking and threatening multiple people. For more than two years, the behavior continued, growing more intense and dangerous than anyone could have imagined. And by the time detectives finally uncovered what was really going on, they were left trying to untangle a case so complicated, and so bizarre, that prosecutors worried a jury wouldn’t believe it was true.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:12Stephanie Harlowe?

  On November 16th, 2012, 37-year-old Carrie Farver was reported missing by her mother Nancy after she suddenly stopped showing up for work and answering calls. No one had seen Carrie since the morning of November 13th, but her phone was active, sending messages and posting online, making it seem like she hadn't disappeared at all. Still, Nancy was adamant that something was wrong. The messages didn't sound like Carrie. As detectives began looking into Carrie's disappearance, they started receiving reports that she was stalking and threatening multiple people. For more than two years, the behavior continued, growing more intense and dangerous than anyone could have imagined. And by the time detectives finally uncovered what was really going on, they were left

• 0:56Stephanie Harlowe?

  trying to untangle a case so complicated and so bizarre that prosecutors worried a jury wouldn't believe it was true.

• 1:16Stephanie Harlowe?

  Hello, everybody. Welcome back to Crime Weekly. I'm Stephanie Harlow.

• 1:19Derrick Levasseur?

  And I'm Derrick Levasseur.

• 1:21Stephanie Harlowe?

  So Derek, we wanted to talk about something, right?

• 1:24Derrick Levasseur?

  Yes.

• 1:25Stephanie Harlowe?

  Something that is impacting the true crime community, and we want to make everyone aware of it and make a call for support for one of the very important person to both Derek and I and to the true crime community.

• 1:39Derrick Levasseur?

  Yes. John Lorden, also known as LordenArts on YouTube, has been in the true crime content game even before me. And I don't know if before you, but it's been in a long time. But more importantly, he's just an amazing human being. I've had the opportunity to meet him a few times. I know Stephanie, you are even closer with him. You had gone through some things and he was there to support you as well. My first memory of John was actually when we first met at CrimeCon many years ago and we had our little team. And we were right next to John and John was already kind of like in the game, knew the crime con experience and was super helpful and nice and walked us through the process.

• 2:20Derrick Levasseur?

  And at that point, nobody knew who we were. We've talked about it before. We had maybe like 10 people come up to our table. And I just remember how kind he was. And as I have talked to people about John over these last couple of days, when he made, he made a video on his channel. We strongly recommend you go check it out. We're going to have his link in the bottom of the description here. And as I was talking to people about John and wanting to do something for him, I reached out to crime con and they were even saying like, John's an angel. Like every year he's, he's so easy to work with. He's humble. He's always thanking us for having him here and it's, it's terrible that he's going through this. So for anybody who doesn't know, John recently put out a video, like I just was mentioning that we're gonna, we're gonna have the description box with his link and all that stuff.

• 3:01Derrick Levasseur?

  But he basically said that he's been editing his own videos and he's been watching himself on camera for so many years. It was like a joke inside his home where basically he's looking at his own face every single day, not only when he's monitoring his video as he's recording it, but also while editing it. And he noticed something on his neck that looked different than it has in past videos. So he decided to go get it checked out and he learned that he does in fact have a mass that is cancerous. So John put out a video and basically said, listen, I'm going to have to take the next month off. I'd really appreciate if people stick around and watch some of the pre-recorded content that I'm going to be putting out because I'm going to be unable to record.

• 3:44Derrick Levasseur?

  And you know, not only does he do, do a great job for the victims and their families and he's a good representation of what true crime is. The, the reality is as creators and we do this full time, if we don't work, we, we don't make money for our families. And with him going in for the surgery, which Stephanie, you were just texting with him is going to be a rough road. He's not going to be able to record and unfortunately the bills don't stop. Now, John's not going to say that directly. He's not looking for a handout, but we want to help him out. We want to support him. And we want to make sure that people go and watch his videos. So we'll have his YouTube channel at the bottom here. Again, he's he's known. But if you don't know him yet, he puts out great videos and we'd really appreciate it if our

• 4:28Derrick Levasseur?

  community goes over there, supports him, let him know you're thinking about him. Watch the videos, comment on them, like the videos, make sure the algorithm is recognizing him. So that he's able to still make some money during this time when he's going to be unable to work. But he's also a great human being, so you should be supporting him anyways.

• 4:48Stephanie Harlowe?

  He is the best human being. John has been in the true crime game, as Derek said, for a long time. He's an OG and this is one of the nicest people I know in the world, not just the true crime world. I I met him years ago when he was doing a podcast with Danielle Hallen, also a super nice, amazing human being. These like just were two nice, like you said, two angels together. They genuinely cared about the cases they were covering. John has always cared. He does very thorough work. His mind works in the way of somebody who's been looking at and examining true crime for a long time.

• 5:27Stephanie Harlowe?

  He is a sweet, kind, good hearted, genuinely good person. He's always been supportive of me. He's always been there for me personally and professionally. I just cannot say enough good things about him. And if anybody deserves support in a time like this, it's him. And if anybody doesn't deserve what he's going through right now, it's him.

• 5:50Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, it could happen to any of us too. This is such a scary time. I know I have someone close to me right now who was just diagnosed with cancer. They're going through it, just had surgery and and this is a healthy person, a young person, four kids, and it can it can happen to anyone in a moment's notice. Your life can change and I'm thinking about him, thinking about his family and he's going to get through this. He's the prognosis is very good, according to him from his video. Go watch it yourself. But we want to make sure that he's taken care of during this time when he's unable to work and go over there, drop him a comment, let him know that Crime Weekly sent you and that we want you to support him not only now, but going forward. And we're thinking about you, John. You're going to be coming through this just fine. Unfortunately, he won't be at Crime Con this year and he's a staple there.

• 6:33Derrick Levasseur?

  So we have some more ideas planned for how we're going to help John talking with Crime Con. But for right now, instantly, what you can do to help him is go over there, support his channel, show him some love. We would greatly appreciate it.

• 6:45Stephanie Harlowe?

  Absolutely. Thank you so much, guys. We really appreciate it. All right, so let's get into the case. Carrie Leah Farver was born on November 30th, 1974 in Des Moines, Iowa to her parents, Denny, an insurance actuary, and Nancy, a secretary. She was named by her father, as her mother had named her older brother Adam, two and a half years earlier. Denny chose the name Carrie after singer Carrie McDowell, a 10-year-old performer who had just appeared on Johnny Carson's Tonight Show, singing "Somewhere Over the Rainbow." Now, Denny and Nancy loved their children endlessly, but by the time Carrie was 18 months old and Adam was four, they realized neither of them was happy in their marriage, and they made the decision to separate while remaining friends.

• 7:28Stephanie Harlowe?

  Nancy moved with the kids to Macedonia, a small town in southwest Iowa with fewer than 300 residents, where her family had been for generations. Even though they no longer lived together, Denny remained very involved, and he and Nancy worked together to make sure their kids felt supported and spent time with both of them. Five years after the separation, Nancy married her first love, a man named Mark, and Carrie served as the flower girl in the wedding. Mark stepped easily into the role of a second father and became an important part of her life. Growing up in Macedonia through the 70s and 80s, Carrie was active in singing and community theater alongside her family, and in school, she was part of the gifted program. From a young age, people described her as an old soul, and she had a way of drawing people in.

• 8:12Stephanie Harlowe?

  She was known for being tender-hearted, but also protective, and if she saw someone being bullied, she would step in and stand up for them. She didn't speak badly about others, and she approached people without judgment, making it easy for her to connect with just about anyone. She was also deeply caring, and if someone around her was struggling, she wanted to help however she could. In 1993, Carrie graduated from Carson Macedonia High School, and she went on to attend the University of Kansas for a few years before going to work as a secretary. In 1997, she started dating someone she had met at college, but that relationship didn't last long. As they were breaking up, Carrie learned she was pregnant. Now, she and this boyfriend, they tried to stay together, but it didn't work. They ultimately went their separate ways before

• 8:56Stephanie Harlowe?

  the baby was born, leaving Carrie preparing to become a single mother. Nancy and her husband, Mark, made it clear that Carrie and the baby could live with them. They would help however they could. So they were very supportive of her pregnancy. And I think that's important to note because at this point, Carrie's very young, right? She's just started college, basically. She's in college. And not only is she about to become a mother, but she's going to become a single mother. And a lot of parents could kind of maybe focus more on the bad decisions you made, or the things that you had done that didn't work out the way you had planned. But it seems as if Carrie's parents, her mother and her stepfather, were like, hey, you know, stuff

• 9:40Stephanie Harlowe?

  happens, don't worry about it. We're gonna, you know, welcome a new person to our family. You can live with us. We'll help you in any way that we can. We'll make sure you can still, you know, be able to achieve your things and go to college and do all those things that you wanted to do and plan to do. So you can get your life started correctly. And we will, you know, basically be a support system for you and help you with the baby since the father isn't going to be around.

• 10:05Derrick Levasseur?

  As you should, right? I mean, we hear these cases where parents will kind of like disown their child after something like this. I wouldn't call it a mistake, but at minimum, if something like this happened with Tunde or Peyton, regardless of how I felt personally, her child is, you know, not to blame for any of this. And they're still your flesh and blood, and they shouldn't have to suffer because of your opinions on what their mom did. So yeah, I mean, this is the right call. It should be common sense. It should be what you do.

• 10:33Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well, Nancy also suggested that Carrie, who was really good with computers, take a six-month course so she could build a career in that field. And this was right around the time, too, that computers were a new and emerging thing, and careers in computers were taking off. So that's actually good advice. This course was expensive, but Nancy's parents, so Carrie's grandparents, Max and Luann, they stepped in and they paid for it. So overall, it looks like Carrie has a great family.

• 10:59Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, they're supportive, that's for sure.

• 11:01Stephanie Harlowe?

  Supportive, they're, you know, they put their money where their mouth is, basically. They're not just a family system that's like, hey, we support you, but then when you need them and it's like nowhere to be found, they actually pour in words and actions. So Carrie enrolled in this course and a little more than halfway through it, she gave birth to her son, Max, who was named after her grandfather. And also just a great name in general, that's a timeless name, Max, I love it. So after Max's birth, they moved in with Nancy and Mark. And Carrie took to motherhood immediately, Max became the center of her world. And while she was raising him on her own without active involvement from his father, she had this strong support system with her mom, her stepdad, her dad and her grandparents,

• 11:45Stephanie Harlowe?

  all helping raise Max with Carrie, which is amazing. So 10 weeks after having Max, Carrie completed the course. And then she actually got a job working with computers and this gave her a strong start in a new career. But things weren't easy, which is understandable, and Carrie's life wasn't always stable. So over the next decade, she would get married and get divorced twice, and she changed jobs multiple times. Now eventually Carrie was diagnosed with bipolar disorder and she began taking prescription medication. There were times when she stopped taking it because she said it made her feel numb. But over time, things began to level out and her life became more stable.

• 12:25Stephanie Harlowe?

  She and Max eventually moved into a historic home in Macedonia that had belonged to her grandparents. And Carrie loved it. She loved the interior decorating, she did all she could to make it her own. She made the home warm and welcoming, filling it with a mix of antiques that had been in the family for generations and newer furniture that she had picked out. The home meant everything to her and being so close to her mom and stepdad meant they could continue playing an active role in her and Max's lives. By the spring of 2012, Max was 14 years old and things were going well. In May, it came Carrie started what she considered her dream job as a computer programmer for West Corporation. Their offices were about forty-five minutes away in Omaha.

• 13:09Stephanie Harlowe?

  Now, even though the commute was kind of long, Carrie enjoyed the work and no matter how busy she was, her son Max remained her priority. She showed up for everything for him, whether it was football games, track meets, basketball, baseball, you name it, she was always there, always supporting him the way that her parents and her family had supported her. But while 2012 brought that dream job, it also brought heartbreak. Carrie's father, Denny, was battling stomach cancer and he was actually put into hospice. And Carrie and Max made sure to spend as much time with him as they could. So I'm pretty sure that, one, you have cancer and you're put into hospice. It's kind of, it's kind of an indication that this is terminal, right? I'm not off about that.

• 13:53Stephanie Harlowe?

  Like, if you're not in the hospital anymore and you're not receiving like direct medical treatment all the time, once you go into hospice, it's kind of the doctors saying and you acknowledging, there's, there's nothing I can do here medically. Like, I'm just, I'm kind of, I'm losing this battle with cancer.

• 14:10Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, my understanding of hospice is, at that point, the aggressive treatment that had been taking place is, it subsides and it's more about comfort and being around the people you love.

• 14:21Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, so that's why I think, you know, Carrie and Max, they're, they're trying to get over there as much as possible, spend as much time with Denny as they could because his life was coming to an end. Now, at that point, Carrie's focus was on family and work and she wasn't even thinking about dating. But that changed in the fall of 2012 when she took her black Ford Explorer to Hyatt Tire in Omaha. And that's where she met Dave Krupa, the mechanic there. She later told her friend Amber that there was an instant attraction with Dave. And while she thought he felt it too, he did not ask her out. So after she left, she looked him up and saw he was on Plenty of Fish. So for those who don't know, Plenty of Fish is a dating app. I don't know if it's still around.

• 15:06Derrick Levasseur?

  I, I don't even remember that being a thing.

• 15:08Stephanie Harlowe?

  You know, the only reason I know what it is, is because I worked at Verizon around this time. And so obviously, people were just handing over their cellphones to me. And not that I was going through them, I wasn't going through them. I would, you can't, okay? By the way, you can't. But I would, I kept seeing, around a certain time, I kept seeing this app, Plenty of Fish, Plenty of Fish. And eventually I was like, I thought it was a game or something, you know? And I was like, what is this Plenty of Fish? And, and one girl was like, oh, it's a dating app.

• 15:38Derrick Levasseur?

  So this is like before Tinder?

• 15:39Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, I, I think it was like, it was a precursor to Tinder.

• 15:42Derrick Levasseur?

  Okay.

• 15:43Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 15:44Derrick Levasseur?

  Plenty of fish.

• 15:45Stephanie Harlowe?

  It was kind of like around the eHarmony time where, do you remember like eHarmony? And then there was another one, match.com? Yep. And those were like the big ways that you would find like online dating. But a lot of the times you would like meet people who weren't necessarily in your area. And then Plenty of Fish came out and that was like, hey, you can narrow it down to a specific geographical location, right? And then kind of Plenty of Fish became the hookup app. Whereas match.com and eHarmony were like, oh, if you want a relationship, you're on match.com and eHarmony. And if you want to just like, you know, hook up with someone close by to you.

• 16:19Derrick Levasseur?

  Hook.

• 16:20Stephanie Harlowe?

  Plenty of fish is there. Hook up Plenty of Fish? You think that's what it means?

• 16:23Derrick Levasseur?

  I don't know. It just sits where my head went. Hook, hook up, hook a fish.

• 16:28Stephanie Harlowe?

  What? Maybe.

• 16:29Derrick Levasseur?

  And for the record.

• 16:30Stephanie Harlowe?

  Maybe Plenty of Fish is like, there's plenty of fish in the sea. Like you have one tonight, you got another one tomorrow.

• 16:35Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah. Well, Plenty of Fish is still around for anybody who wants to know. I just looked it up. It's still a thing. Plenty of Fish still exists. I don't know. I'm not going to sign up, but, but I could see the website. So it's still around for anybody.

• 16:48Stephanie Harlowe?

  All right. Well, is, is there like a fish?

• 16:51Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah.

• 16:51Stephanie Harlowe?

  Logo. Yeah, okay.

• 16:52Derrick Levasseur?

  Right on the front page. Two fish kind of flirting with each other.

• 16:55Stephanie Harlowe?

  How cute. How cute. I mean, if it's called Plenty of Fish, they should probably have a whole bunch of fish in the, the logo. But so Carrie looks on Plenty of Fish and she sees that this cute mechanic from Hyatt Tire, Dave Krupa, he's on the app, right? So she then created an account hoping to connect with him there. And a few weeks later, Dave came across her profile and messaged her, but still didn't ask her out. So about two weeks after that, Carrie went back to Hyatt Tire. This time the connection was evident and they both knew the other was single. So Dave finally asked her out and Carrie, of course, said, yes, this is what she's been waiting for. This is what she's been setting up for two weeks. They exchanged phone numbers.

• 17:39Stephanie Harlowe?

  And they made plans to go on a date at Applebee's three days later on October 29th. Now, Dave Krupa was born in October of 1976 in Sioux Falls, South Dakota. He was the first of three boys born to Tom and Trish, and he grew up in what he described as a picture perfect household with supportive and loving parents. After high school, Dave moved to Denver, Colorado and joined the National Guard, but he left after two years. Then he attended college and earned an associate's degree in automotive engineering. He eventually moved back to Sioux Falls where he built a career as a mechanic. And it was around that time that he met Amy Flora. The two of them started dating, they built a life together. They went on to welcome two children into the world.

• 18:21Stephanie Harlowe?

  By the fall of 2011, so the year before, Dave meets Carrie. Amy and Dave had been together for over 10 years and Amy wanted to move back to her home of Council Bluffs, Iowa, which is right next to Omaha, Nebraska. So their family made the move and Dave took a job at Hyatt Tire in Omaha, but things between Dave and Amy were not going well. Dave hadn't wanted to get married while Amy did. And this caused tension and eventually they decided to break up. And I think that this is pretty common, like especially if you meet someone young and then, oh, one thing leads to another. You know, you're pregnant, I feel like what Dave experienced and what Carrie experienced is

• 19:04Stephanie Harlowe?

  kind of the, the two ways that these things go, especially back then in like the eighties and the nineties. If you're together, it doesn't matter if you're together two weeks, two months, two years, even if you're young and you got pregnant, it was like, okay, we're going to get married. And so a lot of time you'll see that these people are ending up married, but they don't, you know, they're not compatible. They don't have the same.

• 19:26Derrick Levasseur?

  It's more of because it's like the quote unquote right thing to do.

• 19:29Stephanie Harlowe?

  Right thing to do.

• 19:30Derrick Levasseur?

  Which is obviously the wrong thing to do. Don't marry someone just because you feel obligated.

• 19:35Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, especially if, if you don't even really know them, you know, like, yeah, stay with them and see where things go, but.

• 19:40Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, give it a shot.

• 19:41Stephanie Harlowe?

  It ends up being this thing where two people are together when they don't have the same path in life, they don't have the same goals, they don't have the same compatibility as in what they want. Or who they are. And then this is exactly what ends up happening and it becomes a stay together for the kids thing. And if you've talked to any kid who's been in a stay together for the kids kind of family. It's not, it's not the, not the best case scenario. It's not as good as you think it is. And then like the parents suffer and you think as a parent, you're doing it for the wellbeing of your child, but your child tells you years later when they're adult, they're like, that sucked. You shouldn't have done that, you know? So. This obviously was, you know, something that would eventually come between Dave and Amy.

• 20:22Stephanie Harlowe?

  The fact that Dave was kind of an unwilling participant in the marriage and Amy, I'm sure was able to pick up on that pretty. Pretty clearly and strongly. And so things were rough between Dave and Amy at first, but over time they did become more amicable. They kind of just started getting along and, you know, they got used to the fact that. They were not together anymore. But after the breakup, Dave moved into an apartment in nearby Omaha, so he could be closer to work. And by June of 2012, he was feeling lonely. He had regular visits with his kids, but outside of that, he was basically on his own in a new city where he didn't really know anyone. And within weeks, he realized he wanted to start casually dating again. So he joined Plenty of Fish. See casually dating.

• 21:07Derrick Levasseur?

  Casually.

• 21:07Stephanie Harlowe?

  Plenty of Fish.

• 21:08Derrick Levasseur?

  AKA hooking up.

• 21:10Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah. Let me get a bunch of fish and see which one tastes the best, I guess.

• 21:13Derrick Levasseur?

  Which one's gonna bite?

• 21:15Stephanie Harlowe?

  Which one's gonna bite?

• 21:18Stephanie Harlowe?

  Which one's gonna get on the hook?

• 21:21Stephanie Harlowe?

  And like, like I guess I casual, Dave was not looking for anything serious. He just wanted someone to have fun with. And he, you know, I will say to, as a testament to his character in that, in that scenario, he was making that clear to every woman he would eventually speak to. According to Dave, he wasn't love bombing anyone or promising all these. Yeah. He was just like, listen, I don't want to talk about the future. I don't want to talk about marriage. I have kids.

• 21:49Derrick Levasseur?

  Want to hang out, want to have someone fun to hang with, more than likely want to hook up, have sex.

• 21:53Stephanie Harlowe?

  I want a friend who I can sleep with.

• 21:55Derrick Levasseur?

  If he's making that clear upfront, nothing wrong with that.

• 21:57Stephanie Harlowe?

  I agree. I, I agree. I mean. I'm not, it's not like my cup of tea.

• 22:02Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah.

• 22:03Stephanie Harlowe?

  For.

• 22:04Derrick Levasseur?

  Most people might say, no, I'm out, but at least he's being transparent.

• 22:06Stephanie Harlowe?

  But you know, there's always the, there's always the people, whether it's men or women. When you're dating someone and they're like, oh, I'm not looking for anything serious. They're thinking in their head. I can change him. He's not looking for anything serious until he sees how amazing I am and I make him fall in love with me, right?

• 22:25Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, they like the challenge.

• 22:27Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, they like the challenge.

• 22:28Derrick Levasseur?

  And when it doesn't work out, they're pissed.

• 22:29Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yes, exactly, exactly. So while Dave wasn't looking for anything serious, the first woman he met on Plenty of Fish would become a major part of his life for many years, whether he liked it or not. And I would say that maybe this person was one of those persons who liked a challenge and then got pissed when it didn't work out. So her name was Shayna Elizabeth Goiler. She went by Liz. So when Dave saw her profile, he thought she was attractive, so he asked her out on a date. She said yes, and they met at a Perkins in Omaha. Oh, do you remember Perkins? I used to work at one. Best pancakes. So Dave was nervous because he hadn't dated since he was 22, but things went well. They quickly realized they had some things in common, including that they both had kids who were around the same ages.

• 23:14Stephanie Harlowe?

  And Dave made it clear that he wasn't looking for anything serious, and Liz said she understood. She told him she was busy with her own life, her two kids, her four pets, her cleaning business. She had way too much going on to add more commitments. And Dave, of course, he liked that answer. And they went on a handful of similar low-key dates. Nothing really happened until the fourth or fifth date when Dave kissed her. And they went back to his place, and one thing led to another, and they hooked up. They had sex. So Dave later told author Leslie Ruhl for her book, A Tangled Web, that this whole experience had helped him get his confidence back, which I'm sure that Liz wouldn't have liked to have been described as that, right?

• 23:59Derrick Levasseur?

  Stepping stone?

• 24:00Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah. He's like, you're not, I don't want anything serious with you. I just want you to help me get my confidence back so I can find something that I actually want to be serious about.

• 24:10Derrick Levasseur?

  It's like, what am I supposed to say to that?

• 24:12Stephanie Harlowe?

  Listen, Liz, you're not wife material, but you did help me get my confidence back, so thank you.

• 24:17Derrick Levasseur?

  Thank you. High five.

• 24:18Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah. But it was clear that Liz really liked David, and he liked that she was sexually adventurous. And those were all appealing things. To a man trying to date again for the first time in over a decade. Somebody who was kind of down for anything, fun to hang out with, and also made him feel good about himself, right? He needed that. He needed to see himself as a man that could be desirable to women again. But beyond that, Dave didn't really think there was much of a deeper connection. He felt like he couldn't have a real conversation with Liz, and he didn't see anything more long-term or more committed developing. And to make matters worse, after a few weeks, Liz started to become really clingy. You know, she's busy with her dogs, her cleaning business, and her kids.

• 25:03Stephanie Harlowe?

  She doesn't have time for more commitments, but you know, she fell for Dave, clearly, and she wanted all of his time. And she constantly wanted to know where he was, which didn't sit well with him, especially since he had made it clear from the beginning that he didn't want anything serious, and that he planned to date other people. And she had made it clear that she was totally fine with that, and that she wasn't, you know, that kind of person because she was so busy with her own stuff. So all of a sudden, Dave's like, hey, I was upfront and honest with you. You clearly didn't believe me. It was, once again, something you saw as a challenge. And now, and I get that, like, it makes her feel bad about herself, you know, because maybe she liked Dave more than she expected to. And so mutually, she thought, if I'm feeling that, he's got to be feeling that.

• 25:46Stephanie Harlowe?

  So to know that he's not feeling that, while Dave's confidence is building, Liz's is crashing, right? And yeah, that can cause some emotional rift, which is why I don't think you should casually date people or have sex with them, because there's always going to be tricky emotions that get involved.

• 26:06Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, I mean, there's always the possibility. This isn't really, this isn't really valuable to what we're talking about here tonight, but...

• 26:13Stephanie Harlowe?

  It's valuable to life.

• 26:14Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, I think it is. I mean, if, if someone prefaces a dating relationship by saying, "I'm not looking for anything serious," there is a small chance that they could change their mind, right? If, if, you know, things start to go in that direction, but it's not likely. And so I would say, if you're looking for something more serious, there are plenty of fish in the sea, and there are people out there who are going into it with a mindset of, this could be something serious. So... I would, I would tend to start that direction because more than likely, if you go the other way, you're gonna be disappointed.

• 26:46Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, and I think a lot of men, in my experience, and I've talked to, you know, friends who are girls and things, a lot of men use that as kind of like, well, I told you I wasn't looking for anything serious. You know, but then they're also calling you all the time, or messaging you, or when you're together.

• 27:03Derrick Levasseur?

  Saying one thing, actions showing another. That's fair.

• 27:05Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, when you're together, they seem like they're really into you. And so in your head, you're thinking, like, I'm falling, and I feel like more serious about this, so maybe he's feeling that way too, because his actions are not matching his words. And I do, I do think, like, once again, like Derek said, it is actually relevant to this case, as we'll come to find.

• 27:25Derrick Levasseur?

  Oh, you think it is? Okay.

• 27:26Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 27:27Derrick Levasseur?

  How you handle a dating relationship, we'll see.

• 27:29Stephanie Harlowe?

  How, how Dave and Liz, how their relationship started and what it became. So what I'm saying is I don't think it's enough for a man or a woman to say at the beginning of a relationship, oh, I don't want anything serious, but then to continue on in the relationship long-term. Like, if you're telling someone you don't want anything serious, then they shouldn't really be around for a long time. You know what I mean?

• 27:52Derrick Levasseur?

  Okay, I'm with you. I'm with you there, where, I don't know, I, I'd be interested, predominantly our audience is, is women, so I'm interested to hear the feedback there.

• 28:02Stephanie Harlowe?

  I think it's just some mixed message.

• 28:04Derrick Levasseur?

  I, I do think you're right, where if you're like, I don't want anything serious, but you're getting together, even if it's for sex, three or four times a week, that's not casual, that's consistent.

• 28:17Stephanie Harlowe?

  I mean, if you're even, you're watching movies together, you're sharing stuff about your lives, stuff like that.

• 28:21Derrick Levasseur?

  More than likely, you're not just walking in and having sex. There's conversations before, during, and after.

• 28:25Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, you start to become, you know, you know each other, and you start to become almost each other's, like, support system in a way, as friends would be, but you're also having sex, which confuses that friend relationship. And I, I just think that, you know, emotions do get involved, and it gets complicated. And so a lot of times, men get angry, and they're like, well, I told her I didn't want anything serious, but then you kept having sex with her for months. You know, they call it a situationship now, right? It's a situationship.

• 28:53Derrick Levasseur?

  I'm gonna get hate for this, but... I could see the other side of that where it's like you're not going on dates. You're just hooking up, even if you're hooking up consistently. I'm not looking for anything serious, AKA I'm just looking to have sex.

• 29:05Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, well, you're you're friends, right? So let's say you go out and you grab coffee together, you're getting dinner together, you see a movie together. Now, this is a relationship. You're just not giving me the commitment exclusively of a relationship. What's going to end up happening is the person on the other end of that is going to end up feeling used, right? For sex, for companionship.

• 29:24Derrick Levasseur?

  But if you said it initially, is it their fault or yours? Like if you started saying, I don't want anything serious.

• 29:30Stephanie Harlowe?

  I mean, I feel like at some point Liz should have had a conversation with him instead of getting clingy, or when she starts to feel like she is getting clingy, she needs to have a conversation and be like, hey, I'm.

• 29:39Derrick Levasseur?

  Crush for this one.

• 29:41Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, I'm more invested in this than we had initially discussed and like, I want to see if you're on the same page and if you're not, I'm going to have to end this so I don't get hurt because I'm getting into a place where I'm going to start caring about you and then I'm going to get hurt. But that takes a lot of like emotional regulation and also self-awareness and in communication, which a lot of people don't have and they don't want to be the person to like say that because then they feel like I'm like needy and I'm going to be rejected. Nobody wants to be rejected, so.

• 30:12Derrick Levasseur?

  All right, well.

• 30:12Stephanie Harlowe?

  It's uncomfortable.

• 30:13Derrick Levasseur?

  I'm interested to see how this all plays into this because I don't think at this point, Dave did anything critically wrong, but we'll see what happens.

• 30:21Stephanie Harlowe?

  No, I don't think he did anything critically wrong, but I think that both men and women have to realize that just saying at the beginning, I don't want anything serious.

• 30:28Derrick Levasseur?

  I agree with that.

• 30:29Stephanie Harlowe?

  Isn't enough. You have to reinforce it somehow.

• 30:32Derrick Levasseur?

  If you're saying, I don't want something serious, but yet you're doing all the things that would indicate it's serious, well, then.

• 30:36Stephanie Harlowe?

  And it's going on for weeks and months.

• 30:38Derrick Levasseur?

  Actions speak louder than words. I'm with you.

• 30:40Stephanie Harlowe?

  All right, let's take a quick break. We'll be right back.

• 30:46Stephanie Harlowe?

  You ever open up your refrigerator and see all the healthy food you bought with good intentions and immediately close the door again?

• 30:54Derrick Levasseur?

  Totally, I look in the fridge. I just went to my local market, Dave's market, shout out to Dave's, and then all of a sudden, now it feels like a second job where I'm done for the day, but now it's just getting started.

• 31:05Stephanie Harlowe?

  I that's when I realized for me, eating healthy isn't a willpower problem. It's a capacity issue. It's a setup problem. And that's why we love Factor. Everything's already done for you. These are fully prepared meals designed by dieticians and crafted by chefs delivered straight to your door.

• 31:24Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah. And one more wrinkle, when you finally decide to start cooking the food, you realize that half of it is expired. That happens to me all the time as well. But with Factor, there's no grocery shopping, no meal prep, and for me, which is also important, no cleanup. Love that.

• 31:39Stephanie Harlowe?

  And these meals are actually really good. So one of my favorites recently has been the peppercorn steak. It's high protein, which is I need that. You know, everybody needs protein. I never get enough protein. It's filling and it's delicious. And it's really easy when I'm busy filming or researching all day. And I've talked about the bolognese that they have. It's my favorite thing. I order like six of them a month so I can have at least one a week. It tastes like something you get out of a restaurant.

• 32:06Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah. And they've got different meals depending on your goals as well. So you can be focused on weight loss, overall nutrition, higher protein or GLP-1 support. They've got options for all of that and for workouts and recovery, which I'm focused on right now. They also have the Muscle Pro Collection. Amazing. Something for everybody.

• 32:24Stephanie Harlowe?

  Muscle Pro Collection, which is a step up from the Muscle Navis.

• 32:28Derrick Levasseur?

  And I am by no means a pro, but I like to pretend I'm one.

• 32:31Stephanie Harlowe?

  So they've got over 100 rotating meals every week, including globally inspired flavors and new ready to eat salads, which I've been loving. They have little add-ons like green juices and energy bites. The energy bites are amazing. So we love Factor. We think you will too. It just removes so much stress from busy weeks and makes eating well way more realistic. So head to factormeals.com/crimeweekly50off and use code CRIMEWEEKLY50OFF to get 50% off and free daily greens per box with a new subscription only, while supplies last until September 27th, 2026. Once again, that's factormeals.com/crimeweekly50off with code CRIMEWEEKLY50OFF. See website for more details.

• 33:18Stephanie Harlowe?

  Okay, we're back. So Dave continued seeing Liz even after she got clingy. And he was like, I don't like this. I told her I don't want anything serious. He continued seeing her. But he kept telling her they would never be together and that this was casual. So he is reinforcing this with his words. But he's still having sex with her, which is going to cause Liz to feel like she's being used. So at the same time, he went back on Plenty of Fish and he started meeting other women going on dates regularly. And he did not hide this from Liz. Once again, I will give him credit for that. If she asked what he was doing and he had a date, he told her. But every time he had plans with another woman, what would happen? Liz would show up at his apartment beforehand and want to have sex with him. So she's trying to stake her claim.

• 34:03Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah.

• 34:03Stephanie Harlowe?

  Right? She's trying to, you know, make sure he goes on this date, thinking about the mind blowing time he just had with sexually adventurous Liz. And that she's like distracting his brain from these other women. Or like, I'll show you what these other women have to measure up to. And this, I will say, not self-aware.

• 34:21Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, or trying to lower his libido.

• 34:27Stephanie Harlowe?

  His libido, right. All of the things, probably all of the things, right?

• 34:29Derrick Levasseur?

  There's definitely some psychological warfare going on there.

• 34:32Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 34:33Derrick Levasseur?

  Where it's like, I'm going to put you in a position where you just want to go to sleep.

• 34:37Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, this also comes from a place, I think of like, knowing your worth.

• 34:41Derrick Levasseur?

  I would agree with that.

• 34:42Stephanie Harlowe?

  Like if I'm with someone and I like them and they've made it clear that they don't want to be exclusive and that...

• 34:48Derrick Levasseur?

  Nah, I'm done with you.

• 34:49Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, that doesn't feel good with me. I'm just gonna, I'm gonna cut out, right? I'm gonna cut my losses.

• 34:53Derrick Levasseur?

  I agree. As a guy with two daughters, if a guy's not reciprocating feelings and he's telling you directly, I don't want anything to do with you long-term, then don't give him the other aspect of it, you know, the sexual side of things. He loses that as well.

• 35:08Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, because now who do you have to be mad at? Yeah. And I will say, like, listen, Liz is doing all of the things, but she's got kids and she's got a business and she's got dogs. Like, this feels exhausting. This feels exhausting to be doing for a man that has let you know you're not the one. Like, he's just not that into you, right? So after this happened three times, Dave realized, no, well, she's trying to get him to stay with her and cancel his dates.

• 35:36Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah.

• 35:37Stephanie Harlowe?

  Uh, but that didn't work. He would leave for his date anyway. And you know, she got more and more pissed off every time it happened. She was like, this did not work. My plan did not work. I gotta try something different next time. I gotta try a different position and a different piece of a lingerie.

• 35:50Derrick Levasseur?

  Also, just to knock Dave a little bit, he could easily say, don't come over.

• 35:52Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, well, I guess she would show up. She wouldn't like call ahead of time.

• 35:56Derrick Levasseur?

  All right. Well, if she was just randomly showing up, okay, but if there's any indication where she was like, hey, I'm gonna come by and he's like, well, if you want to.

• 36:03Stephanie Harlowe?

  No, even just randomly showing up, like as a man, you have to have enough self-control to be like, no, I can still say no, even though you're in person and you look really good. I can still say no to you because this is starting to get a little crazy.

• 36:16Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, sending mixed messages too.

• 36:18Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, exactly. So there were also issues whenever Dave went to see his kids. So he would drive to Council Bluffs and meet Amy and the kids at a public place, something completely normal for parents who share custody. But Liz absolutely hated the visits because it meant Dave was seeing Amy. And she would make comments about how much time he was spending with Amy, suggesting he was cheating and Dave would remind her that he was there to see his kids and what he did with his time wasn't her business. So now Liz is also jealous of Amy, who Dave's already been with for 10 years and it didn't work out. So she's jealous of his future girlfriends, his current girlfriends, his past wife, basically any other woman in his life, which is a bad sign.

• 37:02Derrick Levasseur?

  I know we've talked about Liz a few different times here and we're talking about how she should have taken a hint and got out of there and stopped, you know, giving him the certain benefits of a relationship without the actual relationship. I gotta put some blame on Dave here though, because he has all these red flags that are being shown and yet he's thinking with the wrong head, right? He sees it. He knows what's going on. He's having these uncomfortable conversations where he has to remind her it's none of her business, but clearly he can see that she's, she's emotionally invested. She's jealous over these things. It's not gonna lead anywhere good. You gotta stop having sex with her.

• 37:34Stephanie Harlowe?

  If someone's accusing you of cheating when you're technically not in a relationship.

• 37:38Derrick Levasseur?

  Baby mama, like, I mean, like, that's a red flag. You need to make a conscious decision not to see her anymore. And he didn't. For up to this point at least.

• 37:47Stephanie Harlowe?

  I mean, don't, don't act like men don't cheat with their baby mamas, though.

• 37:50Derrick Levasseur?

  That's what I'm saying. He could be sleeping with his baby mama. It wouldn't be crazy to think that he's out there having sex with a woman that he had a kid with.

• 37:57Stephanie Harlowe?

  Two kids, yeah.

• 37:58Derrick Levasseur?

  But if he is, it's none of her business. However, if you're, if you're involving her in your life consistently and she's voicing these opinions, it's kind of your bet that you gotta lay in it. Like you're, you're sending mixed signals.

• 38:10Stephanie Harlowe?

  Or you gotta get out of it. Yeah.

• 38:11Derrick Levasseur?

  He's showing you who she is and yet you're not, you're not getting out of the situation.

• 38:15Stephanie Harlowe?

  They're both showing each other who they are.

• 38:18Derrick Levasseur?

  Right.

• 38:18Stephanie Harlowe?

  Some people like this kind of toxic relationship. I will say that they like.

• 38:21Derrick Levasseur?

  I think it's clear why he's sticking with her.

• 38:23Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well, remember she gave him his confidence back, so.

• 38:26Derrick Levasseur?

  Right. And I mean, let's just be blunt. We're all adults here. She, there was probably good sex. They had been having sex for a while.

• 38:31Stephanie Harlowe?

  She was sexually adventurous.

• 38:32Derrick Levasseur?

  He liked the convenience. He liked the, you know, I guess the adventure of it. Yeah, you know, and so he's out there trying to find new fish. But at the same time, going back to the one that he's comfortable with and to be candid, something that's pretty much, it appears to be automatic at this point where he wants to hook up, Liz is available.

• 38:52Stephanie Harlowe?

  It's familiar. It's comfortable. He knows he can kind of try new things with her where you might not feel that comfortable doing that with somebody you just met. Yeah. So it's like, once again, all the benefits and comfortability of a relationship without giving that person yourself, which is unfair.

• 39:05Derrick Levasseur?

  Yep. And so a lot of what the other things that he's experiencing as far as her calling him out for cheating and all this other stuff.

• 39:12Stephanie Harlowe?

  He thinks he can manage it.

• 39:13Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, well, not looking good.

• 39:16Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well, we've been in true crime long enough to know.

• 39:18Derrick Levasseur?

  To know it ain't gonna end well.

• 39:19Stephanie Harlowe?

  With some people you can't. So this all of course became a huge point of contention for Dave. It really bothered him that Liz was being so jealous, but no matter what he said, Liz didn't back off. She kept pushing and pushing, becoming more jealous of the time he spent with Amy. Eventually Dave told her he didn't want to talk to her anymore because he didn't need the drama. She left him alone for a few weeks, but then reached out again, asking for help with something at her house. And because she was a single mom, Dave agreed. But would you believe it after he helped her out with what he was there to help her out with? They had sex or at least she suggested they have sex and then they did have sex? And just like that, they were back to talking again, which would you believe it was probably Liz's plan? The whole time she didn't need help with anything at home. Come on.

• 40:04Stephanie Harlowe?

  It's a, it's a tale as old as time. That is a trick that goes all the way back in the book of tricks that the men and women use with each other. You know, it's the same thing as like leaving something behind at somebody's house. So they have an excuse to see them again. She gave him some space for a few weeks to prove she could, to prove she wasn't crazy. All right, I can leave you alone. But then she's like, all right, he's probably missing me. He misses, you know, what we had together and he's going to come over to help. And I'm going to be wearing something cute, something low cut. And then it's going to happen. And then just like that, they are back on talking again, having sex again in the same toxic pattern that wasn't working out for either of them before they're back at it again.

• 40:49Stephanie Harlowe?

  So this was the start of a cycle between Dave and Liz. Surprise, surprise. Things would go well for a few weeks and then the same patterns would start again. Liz would become clingy, jealous and accuse him of cheating with Amy. And Dave would get frustrated and tell her he didn't want to see her anymore. Then she would back off and disappear for a few weeks, come back asking for help. Dave would go over and they'd get back together. So as time went on, Liz's behavior escalated and she became less willing to back down when Dave put up boundaries. Yeah, because at this point, Dave has sent her a message. I can't stay away from you. And she's in her head thinking, he's into me. He just, you know, he's afraid of commitment or he's not able to love, but he, he's into me

• 41:31Stephanie Harlowe?

  and he loves me. He just can't admit it like, because you keep coming back. You keep coming back. So.

• 41:38Stephanie Harlowe?

  She now wanted constant communication, right? Because she thinks she's got him. And she would text, email, she would call Dave dozens of times throughout the day. She'd even show up at his apartment unannounced to try to talk to him. And by September of 2012, they had only been seeing each other on and off again for a few months, but Liz was already pushing for a commitment. Dave kept saying no, but she continued to bring it up, suggesting they try a four-week commitment where they would only see each other during that time so he could see what it was like. So basically, she's saying, "We'll be exclusive for four weeks. We will only see each other and you can get an idea of what it's like." Like, he was with Amy for 10 years. He knows what it's like.

• 42:22Stephanie Harlowe?

  He told Liz no three separate times, but she kept asking. And eventually, he agreed just to get her to stop. Ugh. So at that point, he wasn't really seeing other women anyway, because he was busy with the kids and dealing with Liz constantly contacting him. So it kind of felt easier to just say yes, like, play into it, appease her. And then at the end of the four weeks, I can be like, "Yeah, as I thought this wasn't for me." And hopefully, that sends a sign that all the other signs haven't sent before.

• 42:54Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, but again, he could have also said, "You're pushing me too much. I don't like the pressure. We're done. No sex, no nothing." But it sounds to me, reading between the lines, he didn't want to give up the sexual side of things. So he agreed to appease her because there was something still in it for him. I don't think that he was doing this out of the goodness of his heart. He was benefiting from it as well. So again, I'm going to say this phrase a couple of times, thinking more with the wrong head in this situation where the only reason he was willing to do it was because, candidly, he wanted to keep having sex with her.

• 43:26Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, which is, you know, the epitome of what she's feeling. I'm being used for sex and I want to prove that I'm not being used for sex and that I have more worth than that, when that worth has to come from within, Liz. All right? So he, he kept his word and he didn't date anyone else during those four weeks. But during that time, Carrie came into Hyatt Tire to have her Explorer worked on. And he did, he felt an immediate connection with her. So what Carrie was feeling, and she was like, I wonder if he's feeling it too. He was, but the reason he didn't ask her out was because he promised Liz that he would be exclusive for four weeks. Okay. And listen, Dave's a simple man who, yes, is a man and he thinks with the wrong head.

• 44:09Stephanie Harlowe?

  But at least he's like trying to keep his word here. Like he's trying to do the morally correct thing. And he's trying to be honest with Liz and he's telling her, I don't want anything serious, even though he's sending the wrong, the wrong kind of messages. Because I think for a lot of men, sex is something different than it is for a lot of women. He doesn't think he's doing anything wrong technically. But he did not ask out Carrie, even though he did want to because of what he had promised Liz.

• 44:36Derrick Levasseur?

  Can I just ask for all the viewers out there that are like me, anyone who's listening or watching right now, a lot of what you're describing here is, is it safe to assume much of this is coming from, from his account of what he remembers, how it happened? Is that fair to say?

• 44:52Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yes.

• 44:54Derrick Levasseur?

  Okay.

• 44:54Stephanie Harlowe?

  Sort of.

• 44:55Derrick Levasseur?

  I just wonder, you know, where the truth really is.

• 44:59Stephanie Harlowe?

  There is, yes, there's documented evidence.

• 45:02Derrick Levasseur?

  Okay.

• 45:03Stephanie Harlowe?

  Of the timelines and.

• 45:04Derrick Levasseur?

  I'm sure most of it's true, but as far as the reasoning, the motives and the intentions and all that.

• 45:09Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well, also Dave didn't want to cross any boundaries because Carrie was a customer at that time.

• 45:15Derrick Levasseur?

  That, that would make more sense. Yeah. It would be difficult to go that far without knowing for sure that the feeling would be reciprocated because you could get fired.

• 45:23Stephanie Harlowe?

  Mm hmm. Yeah. I mean.

• 45:25Derrick Levasseur?

  That makes more sense. Self-preservation opposed to being concerned about how it would make Liz feel. See, it makes more sense to me. Based on.

• 45:32Stephanie Harlowe?

  According to him, it was a little bit of both.

• 45:33Derrick Levasseur?

  Okay. Well, according to him.

• 45:37Stephanie Harlowe?

  So Dave is keeping his word to Liz. He doesn't want to cross any boundaries because he's got a job there and you know, he needs a job. He's got kids to provide for and he doesn't want to get fired. But the second time Carrie came in, his four weeks were coming to an end. And he'd seen her on Plenty of Fish because remember she, you know, made a connection with him there. He knew she was single. And she thought he was single and he technically was, but not technically. So before Carrie left, Dave asked her out and they made plans to go on that date three days later on October 29th. So by that day, the four week commitment was up and Dave once again made it clear to Liz. Okay, I did the four weeks. I did what you asked. Yeah, nothing has changed.

• 46:21Derrick Levasseur?

  We're, uh, it's still what it is.

• 46:24Stephanie Harlowe?

  I'm still not looking for anything serious. I'm still not looking for a commitment with you, with you.

• 46:28Derrick Levasseur?

  That should have been Liz's cue to be like, okay, no problem. Have a good life.

• 46:31Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yep. And then as planned, Dave and Carrie went on their first date, meeting at Applebee's. And from the beginning, they were having a great time, but before they were even done eating, Dave's phone started blowing up with texts and calls from you know who? Liz. So he ignored all of them, but after they continued for 10 minutes straight, Dave started to think something might actually be wrong. So he got up, he went to the bathroom and answered. Liz then said she needed to get her things from his place right now, at that moment. Despite not seeing him for a few days, she had chosen the exact moment he was on a date to be concerned about a couple of shirts, a toothbrush and some pants that she had left there a few weeks earlier. Dave told her that he was on a date and to leave him alone. And then he went back to the table with Carrie.

• 47:17Stephanie Harlowe?

  Did you have to tell her you were on a date, man?

• 47:19Derrick Levasseur?

  Well, I think she already knew he was on a date.

• 47:21Stephanie Harlowe?

  She did, I know.

• 47:22Derrick Levasseur?

  I don't think he was telling her anything she wasn't aware of, hence the reason she was calling at that moment multiple times for a toothbrush.

• 47:28Stephanie Harlowe?

  It's just like add insult to injury here. So despite the interruption, Dave still felt like things were going really well with Carrie and he asked her if she wanted to go back to his apartment, which was nearby.

• 47:38Derrick Levasseur?

  Dave.

• 47:39Stephanie Harlowe?

  Damn.

• 47:40Derrick Levasseur?

  What are we thinking, Dave?

• 47:41Stephanie Harlowe?

  Damn, Dave. Knowing, knowing Liz.

• 47:44Derrick Levasseur?

  Is lurking.

• 47:45Stephanie Harlowe?

  Is always lurking?

• 47:46Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, that's a risk.

• 47:47Stephanie Harlowe?

  That is a risk.

• 47:49Derrick Levasseur?

  As the, uh, One of the like 3% of guys that are that are listening to this episode. I'm gonna say that Dave doesn't sound as innocent as I as as he's portraying himself to be. I'm just gonna be that guy.

• 48:00Stephanie Harlowe?

  Or he's just not that smart, or he literally just.

• 48:03Derrick Levasseur?

  That's what that's what guys use as an excuse. I'm just dumb. I didn't think about it. He knew exactly what he was doing.

• 48:08Stephanie Harlowe?

  Some men are like actually dumb, man.

• 48:10Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, I mean, it could be a combination, but I'm gonna say it. You know. I think this dude's a player.

• 48:15Stephanie Harlowe?

  Definitely a player.

• 48:16Derrick Levasseur?

  That's my opinion.

• 48:17Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 48:18Derrick Levasseur?

  Maybe it's a girl dad in me, but this guy seems like. He's out there just slinging it. Trying to hook up with women.

• 48:25Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well, yeah, obviously. That's what he's that's why he's on plenty of fish.

• 48:28Derrick Levasseur?

  You have one girl hitting you up saying, I'm at my place. I need my stuff. And he's like, eh, I'm on a date. And he's trying to bring another girl there that same night. That seems pretty idiotic to me.

• 48:37Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, and this is the first first date for him and Carrie. Yeah, so it's also like, do you really like Carrie?

• 48:44Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah.

• 48:45Stephanie Harlowe?

  Or do you really just want to have sex with her?

• 48:46Derrick Levasseur?

  There you go.

• 48:47Stephanie Harlowe?

  Okay, so. Carrie says yes, right? Because she's into Dave. She's been trying to get him on her hook for two weeks. And when they left the restaurant, they headed over to Dave's apartment together. Almost as soon as they got inside, Liz started ringing the bell at the security door of Dave's apartment building.

• 49:03Derrick Levasseur?

  Shocker.

• 49:04Stephanie Harlowe?

  He should have known what was gonna happen.

• 49:05Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, I mean, come on.

• 49:06Stephanie Harlowe?

  She said, I gotta get my stuff right now. You know, she's in like a very intense state of mind.

• 49:12Derrick Levasseur?

  She was probably at Applebee's.

• 49:13Stephanie Harlowe?

  She was probably watching him leave the apartment. She was probably at Applebee's. She probably followed them back to the apartment. So Dave left Carrie in the apartment and he went down to talk to Liz, who was crying and upset and saying she needed to get her things. And if I'm Carrie right now, I'm like, I'm out.

• 49:28Derrick Levasseur?

  I'm out, yeah, for sure.

• 49:29Stephanie Harlowe?

  Your phone's blowing up at dinner. You're going to the bathroom all sketchy, making calls.

• 49:33Derrick Levasseur?

  Said you were single.

• 49:34Stephanie Harlowe?

  Some crazy crying woman at your door. Yeah, exactly. No, I'm out. So Dave was like, you can't get your things right now, whatever. But Liz refused to leave. So Dave left her at the security door. He went back upstairs to explain the situation to Carrie, telling her that a woman he had been seeing was nearly hysterical and refusing to leave. And at this point, Dave's like, yeah, you know, I'm just so I'm catnip to these women, you know? You felt the connection immediately, Carrie. You get it. You get it. You just they they keep coming back. That's what happens. It's a curse. They they just they're hysterical about me. I'm like the Beatles. And Carrie, instead of seeing this as a red flag, she she was completely understanding,

• 50:19Stephanie Harlowe?

  right? She laughed it off. She said something like, we've all been there. Call me when you get it straightened out. So Dave walked Carrie down to the security door where Liz was waiting. What the hell? He didn't introduce them. And neither women acknowledged the other as he let Carrie out. And Dave's in his glory right now, right? He's like, look at these two women, just like, sending daggers at each other, not even exchanging pleasantries over little old me, Dave, the catch of Omaha, the catch on plenty of fish. Oh, this had to have really been stoking his ego. So Carrie went back to her car. She started driving home. At the same time, Liz rushed

• 51:03Stephanie Harlowe?

  inside and dramatically started gathering her things from Dave's place. But when she was done, she didn't leave. She stayed, of course, to argue and cry. And eventually, Dave asked her to leave, and she did. And not long after that, he called Carrie. She was still on her way home. So Liz wasn't there for that long. And she invited him to come out to her place. So she's like, all right, the night's not over. The night is still young. It didn't work out at your place, but what about mine? Now, Dave said yes. He hopped in the car immediately. When he got to Carrie's place, they continued having a good time, just like before. And Dave couldn't help but notice how much he liked her. She was beautiful. She was fun. She was really smart, which stood out to him. And then, as they were sitting there, she told him she didn't want anything serious.

• 51:48Stephanie Harlowe?

  Those words were music to Dave's ears. After months of Liz pushing for more, Carrie's laid-back approach to relationships felt like a relief. And he ended up spending the night. And over the next 10 days, they saw each other about every other day. Even though neither of them wanted anything serious, they were doing things together that Dave had never done with Liz. They went shopping for a better couch for his apartment, which had been more of a bachelor setup with bare furniture. And Carrie, who had a talent for interior decorating, helped him pick out something much better that he liked. And in return, Dave helped Carrie look For a car for her son Max, who would be driving soon. So they're doing relationship stuff, right?

• 52:24Derrick Levasseur?

  This is reminding me of that movie Friends with Benefits. Or what's the one, what's the?

• 52:28Stephanie Harlowe?

  Is that Ashton Kutcher?

• 52:29Derrick Levasseur?

  Okay, but it's not. I'm saying the wrong movie then. It's the one with Justin Timberlake and Mila Kunis.

• 52:35Stephanie Harlowe?

  Oh, that might be Friends with Benefits.

• 52:37Derrick Levasseur?

  Whatever one that one is.

• 52:38Stephanie Harlowe?

  I get all those rom coms.

• 52:39Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, like this is, uh, I think you might be right, but my point being.

• 52:44Stephanie Harlowe?

  I think you might be right.

• 52:45Derrick Levasseur?

  Well, you know, I know my, my rom coms.

• 52:48Stephanie Harlowe?

  You know, you're Justin Timberlake.

• 52:49Derrick Levasseur?

  I definitely know JT. The thing about it, it's kind of like this, this gray area because just like in that movie. There's a sexual relationship where you're meeting up late night, it's hookups and you go on your, you're not, you're not cuddling through the night, you're not, you're not, you're not going out interior decorating. You're not doing all these relationship things, but it seems like Dave wants a relationship just without the title. Which gives him an opportunity to still, still say, hey, we're not exclusive. So if he finds someone else, he's like keeping that door open. It's like all the benefits of the relationship without committing to it.

• 53:25Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, I think Dave wants a relationship until he thinks the other person does.

• 53:32Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, that too. I just think he's looking for the better, bigger, better deal all the time.

• 53:35Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well, he wants to keep one foot out the door in case.

• 53:38Derrick Levasseur?

  Like, there's no commitment.

• 53:39Stephanie Harlowe?

  He didn't, he didn't even want to get married to Amy, remember? So I think just in general, some people have issues with commitment.

• 53:46Derrick Levasseur?

  He wants the benefits of a relationship when they're convenient for him.

• 53:49Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yep. So here's the thing. Carrie tells him she doesn't want anything serious. Liz told him that too, remember in the beginning? She was like, yeah, I don't want anything serious either. Now Carrie's saying to him and Dave's like, okay, this is good. Let's do it. But in this situation, Dave's kind of into Carrie now, like he really likes her. And during that time, Liz kept trying to contact Dave, but he completely ignored her now. Which only made her more upset because now he's found someone he likes. He's enjoying this person's company. He can have conversations with her. He can do all this stuff with her and he likes, you know, sleeping with her.

• 54:30Stephanie Harlowe?

  So he has what he needs now. There's not a part where he needs to like fill a hole in his life. And Liz is worthless to Dave now. This is horrible to say, but that's, that's exactly what we're dealing with here. And Liz is understanding that. And she's becoming really angry. So around November 7th, Liz called Dave and said she thought she had left some pans at his place and he offered to bring them to her. But once he got there, she immediately jumped on him and they had sex.

• 55:00Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, I'm putting the blame on Dave.

• 55:02Stephanie Harlowe?

  Dave has no control over himself.

• 55:04Derrick Levasseur?

  No, I'm putting the blame on Dave because again, like she jumped on him. Come on. Come on.

• 55:10Stephanie Harlowe?

  I mean, she might have, but you can still say no.

• 55:12Derrick Levasseur?

  Did you speak to Dave before this script was created? Cause Dave is a victim in every sense of the word.

• 55:18Stephanie Harlowe?

  No, Dave talked to, um, Anne Roll, the author who wrote the book. But listen, she may have.

• 55:24Derrick Levasseur?

  She jumped on him, Stephanie.

• 55:25Stephanie Harlowe?

  But that doesn't mean.

• 55:26Derrick Levasseur?

  What was he supposed to do?

• 55:27Stephanie Harlowe?

  But that doesn't mean that you can't be like peel someone off you.

• 55:31Derrick Levasseur?

  That's what I'm saying.

• 55:32Stephanie Harlowe?

  You know?

• 55:32Derrick Levasseur?

  Oh my God, she jumped on me.

• 55:34Stephanie Harlowe?

  She may have jumped on him.

• 55:35Derrick Levasseur?

  And I'm trying not to be too vulgar here, but like.

• 55:37Stephanie Harlowe?

  But what does that mean?

• 55:38Derrick Levasseur?

  How did your pants get off? How did you, you know, let's, how did everything else happen? Come on, man.

• 55:43Stephanie Harlowe?

  She jumped on me.

• 55:44Derrick Levasseur?

  She jumped on me. I couldn't, I could, I tried to fight her off.

• 55:47Stephanie Harlowe?

  I hit her pants with my hand and I was smacking her with them, but.

• 55:50Derrick Levasseur?

  Did you file charges, Dave? Was it that bad?

• 55:52Stephanie Harlowe?

  It was like Velcro.

• 55:52Derrick Levasseur?

  Come on, man. He went over there. He wanted one last hurrah.

• 55:58Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yep. But in her head, it's not, in Liz's head, it's not one last hurrah, right? It's once again, hope being dangled in front of her.

• 56:04Derrick Levasseur?

  It's also confirming to her, like, there's still something there.

• 56:06Stephanie Harlowe?

  There's still something there, even though he's seeing someone he really likes, he still wants me. But for Dave, the sex with Liz didn't change anything. He continued seeing Carrie and he continued spending as much time with Carrie as possible. And then on November 9th or 10th, Carrie's Explorer was vandalized with silver spray paint on the hood and down the side, along with a deep scratch. So Carrie and her son Max spent hours removing the paint, but even so, Carrie didn't appear to be angry. She was surprised though. Her car had been parked in Macedonia where nothing bad ever happened. I mean, there's 300 people that live there. So I think we know where this is going, right?

• 56:42Derrick Levasseur?

  Oh, no doubt.

• 56:43Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah. But before we continue, let's take our last break. We'll be right back.

• 56:51Stephanie Harlowe?

  So Derek, I would tell you, I'm excited to tell you about the world's number one expanding garden hose and their new product, the Pocket Hose Ballistic. But you are a Pocket Hose fanboy, so I don't think I even need to tell you about it.

• 57:05Derrick Levasseur?

  Huge fan. I got the one that came with our promo package. It was the 25 foot hose. I've now purchased multiple Pocket Hose Ballistics, including their 75 footer. It's amazing. And by the way, it's French Bulldog approved because Vinny, he loves to bite things like the ropes and stuff. So when the Pocket Hose expands, he starts to chew on it. As soon as they bite on it, French Bulldogs, they got those sharp teeth, there's a puncture hose. Knock on wood, multiple encounters, if you will. Not one puncture hole in the hose. Works great. I love how it expands when you turn it on. And then as soon as you turn the water off, it shrinks back down to pocket size. It's amazing. I can't say enough good things about it. And also, by the way, it has this liquid crystal polymer in it, which

• 57:47Derrick Levasseur?

  is the same stuff you find in bulletproof vests. So that's something I know a thing or two about.

• 57:51Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah. So actually, it's interesting because I'm going to be honest here. I'm not like an Incredible Hulk or a strong person, but I have never treated a hose gently in my life. And nobody does, I think. You know, that's what they're made for. They're made for like outside work. People are dragging them across concrete, yanking them around corners, leaving them in the sun, leaving them in the cold, and then they act shocked when they split open six months later. But like you said, Pocket Hose Ballistic, it's kind of insane. It's reinforced with that liquid crystal polymer, and it makes the outer sleeve incredibly durable and actually five times stronger than steel. So.

• 58:26Derrick Levasseur?

  It has over 100 patents for a hose.

• 58:28Stephanie Harlowe?

  Plus, the pocket pivot, it rotates 360 degrees. So instead of fighting the hose every time you want to move it or twist it, it actually moves with you. Plus, they upgraded the washers to resist leaks and they added UV coating. So it keeps it looking good year after year. So there's like.

• 58:43Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, it's a really cool copper look. You'll see, it's awesome.

• 58:46Stephanie Harlowe?

  And right now, for a limited time, when you purchase a new Pocket Hose Ballistic, you'll get a free 360 degree rotating pocket pivot and a free thumb drive nozzle.

• 58:56Derrick Levasseur?

  It's basically a nozzle that's got like seven. Different sprays, it matches the aesthetic of the rest of the hose. It connects right on to it. It's got like this rubber seal. When you connect it where there hasn't been even a drop of water coming out of it.

• 59:08Stephanie Harlowe?

  This clearly is Derek approved, which means it's clearly most men approved. And I know that a lot of us are always like, what do I get my boyfriend, husband, father?

• 59:17Derrick Levasseur?

  When?

• 59:18Stephanie Harlowe?

  It looks like pocket hose would be the perfect gift for any man, any time of the year.

• 59:23Derrick Levasseur?

  Yes.

• 59:24Stephanie Harlowe?

  All right. So all you have to do to claim this amazing offer is tax C W to 64,000. That's C W to 64,000 for your two free gifts with purchase. And one more time, that's C W to 64,000. Message and data rates may apply.

• 59:44Stephanie Harlowe?

  All right, we're back. So a few days later, on November 12th, Carrie was scheduled to start a week long project at work that would require long hours. Dave offered to let her stay at his place so she wouldn't have to commute back and forth. And she accepted and arranged for her son Max to stay with her mom and stepdad.

• 59:59Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, I was about to say, yeah, totally normal thing for just two people who are having sex.

• 1:00:04Stephanie Harlowe?

  Mm hmm. Yeah, right. Exactly.

• 1:00:05Derrick Levasseur?

  Come on.

• 1:00:06Stephanie Harlowe?

  So that Monday, Carrie went to work as expected and she got out sometime between 8:00 PM and 9:00 PM. And then she went back to Dave's and spent the night. The next morning, Tuesday, Dave left for work at around 6:15 AM. When he left, Carrie was awake and on her laptop, working on coding that needed to be finished soon. She also called work around that same time and left a message for her boss saying she was working on things. The plan was for her to finish the code that morning, go into the office, meet with coworkers and verify everything. They were on a deadline and everyone was depending on her. But Carrie never made it into the office that morning. Her supervisor was shocked because she was always reliable and always on time. And she had just called with an update not long before. By mid morning, when Carrie still hadn't shown up, the supervisor called her, but it went straight to voicemail.

• 1:00:50Stephanie Harlowe?

  The supervisor left a message and continued trying to reach Carrie throughout the day, but there was no response. Carrie's phone wasn't completely silent that day, though. At around 10:00 AM, Dave got a text from Carrie's phone asking if he wanted to live together. And that immediately caught him off guard because they had already agreed the relationship was casual. Now Dave's thinking like, man, I let this woman spend a few days with me and Dave, the catnip Dave worked again. What is my deal? It is a curse. These women always want to just marry me as soon as they spend a little time with me. So he responded, no. And then less than 30 seconds later, another text came through that said, quote, fine, I hate you. I'm dating someone else. I don't want to see you anymore. Go away. End quote.

• 1:01:34Stephanie Harlowe?

  Now Dave didn't know what to think. He's probably thinking, why is every woman that I meet absolutely out of her mind? Why am I so appealing to all these women? He was completely thrown off because this didn't feel like the Carrie that he had gotten to know. But at the same time, he reminded himself that he didn't really know her all that well yet. And he didn't want to deal with the drama. So he put his phone down and he went back to work. Now, when Dave got home that evening, Carrie was gone. And after that, he didn't receive any messages from her for almost two days. Carrie's job didn't hear from her either. The only person who got a message from Carrie's phone was her mom, Nancy, who received a text on Tuesday saying that Carrie had found a new job in Kansas. And that didn't make sense to Nancy because Carrie was already working her dream job.

• 1:02:17Stephanie Harlowe?

  And she liked living close to her family and her father was in hospice. And there was all these things tying Carrie to where she was. And this is just not like Carrie at all. Over the next few days, Nancy kept texting Carrie, asking things like, when was she going to pick Max up? Because they were supposed to go to a wedding for Carrie's half birthday where Max would be the usher. The wedding had been moved up because Carrie's father was not doing well. But Nancy never got a response, which was unusual because she and Carrie talked every single day. So at this point, Carrie's basically left, not going to work, not picking up her kid, not doing anything. And this is sending up a ton of red flags. It's not typical for Carrie. And Carrie never showed up for the wedding either, which was completely out of character for her. She wouldn't have missed something

• 1:03:02Stephanie Harlowe?

  like that, especially with her dad in hospice. And she would not have left Max and her family without any communication. But Nancy didn't have Dave's contact information. She didn't even know anything about him. She didn't even know his last name or where he lived. So she had no way to reach out to him to ask if he had seen. Carrie, she was left trying to figure things out on her own. Then on Thursday, November 15th, Carrie's employer received a text from her phone saying she was resigning. And that she was sending Liz Goiler to replace her. This is bananas. So later that same day, Liz filled out an online application with the company. And listed Carrie as her reference. Carrie's supervisor was just absolutely confused, completely shocked by the whole scenario.

• 1:03:43Stephanie Harlowe?

  The idea that Carrie would try to send someone to replace her didn't make sense, especially since Carrie knew the company had a strict hiring process and wouldn't just bring someone in like that, especially someone who didn't have a background in computers. When you're doing coding work.

• 1:03:57Derrick Levasseur?

  But she did stay at a Holiday Inn. You don't get that reference. It's a, it's a commercial. It's like.

• 1:04:01Stephanie Harlowe?

  Cause they have a business center?

• 1:04:02Derrick Levasseur?

  No, it's like, you know, like the Holiday Inn commercials where they're like in a surgical room and they're in a hospital and like. This person's about to have surgery and they're looking at this guy putting on gloves and he's like, oh, are you a heart surgeon? He's like, no. But I did stay at a Holiday Inn last night.

• 1:04:16Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah. Cause I think it's because they have like a business center, right?

• 1:04:18Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:19Stephanie Harlowe?

  It's supposed to be for like the traveling professionals.

• 1:04:21Derrick Levasseur?

  Whatever it is. So like, yeah, she has no background in computers, but you know, it was a joke that didn't land.

• 1:04:25Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, I'm sorry. I.

• 1:04:26Derrick Levasseur?

  I'm sure it landed for some of you out there.

• 1:04:28Stephanie Harlowe?

  I'm sure it did. I'm sure it did, but I was like, really? Did she stay at a Holiday Inn? Like, do you know this case?

• 1:04:34Derrick Levasseur?

  No, but, but that all said, this is wild. Like I'm trying to let you get through the context here. So I'm not like interrupting the whole time. But to think that Carrie would not only recommend someone based on all the things you just said, that's not their practice. That's not their policy. But then to recommend the woman who was sleeping with the same guy as her? Crazy.

• 1:04:57Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well, nobody would really know that except Dave, right?

• 1:04:59Derrick Levasseur?

  Nobody would know that except Dave, but also take Dave out of the equation. Carrie didn't know Liz before Dave. She, all she saw her was in passing.

• 1:05:07Stephanie Harlowe?

  She saw her once.

• 1:05:08Derrick Levasseur?

  So she's not going to recommend a woman that she's never interacted with before.

• 1:05:13Stephanie Harlowe?

  But nobody knows that except Dave.

• 1:05:14Derrick Levasseur?

  Nobody knows it, but crazy if the person sending this text is who I think it is. Why would you expose yourself like this? But anyways, okay.

• 1:05:21Stephanie Harlowe?

  She's not right in the head, obviously.

• 1:05:23Derrick Levasseur?

  I'm listening, I'm listening. I know this is a multi-parter, but I'm like, where are we going with this?

• 1:05:28Stephanie Harlowe?

  It feels like we're going already, right?

• 1:05:30Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, it feels like this is gonna be a slam dunk, but I, I digress. Let's see.

• 1:05:33Stephanie Harlowe?

  All right. So also on November 15th, Dave's phone started blowing up with messages from Carrie that said things like, quote, "I hate you. You've ruined my life. You're a terrible person," end quote. Cause now Liz is mad. Cause Liz is like, hey, I thought he really liked Carrie, but he hasn't messaged her either. So, you know, I have to get a response out of him. Liz is doing what Liz would do if it was her, but she's doing it as Carrie. And so Dave believed Carrie was the one sending those messages. He had no idea that just one day later, on Friday, November 16th, Carrie's mom reported her missing to the Potawatomi County Sheriff's Office, which served Macedonia residents. A deputy came to Nancy's house and took the report, but it was clear he did not think the situation was suspicious.

• 1:06:15Stephanie Harlowe?

  I mean, we've seen this a million times. Carrie's an adult. She has every right to disappear and not call her mom. She got a new boyfriend, you know, she's got all these responsibilities. She wanted to like, take a break from them.

• 1:06:25Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah. Can I, can I address this quick though? Because although it happens all the time, I talked a, a lot about this on Detective Perspective, because it's always unsolved. And I, I, I practiced what I preach here, okay? There's a distinction, right? And I think it's, we have to make it clear. As a police officer, when you respond to a call like this, and someone says there's an adult, there's no previous medical history, nothing that would suggest that this is something you need to report right away. There is a clear difference between reporting it, entering this person into NCIC, and doing the investigation.

• 1:06:59Stephanie Harlowe?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:07:00Derrick Levasseur?

  Simply put, you can tell the complainant, the person trying to make the report, unfortunately, they're an adult, maybe they don't want to be found. I can't report them missing it. They have a right to do what they want to do and have that privacy. However, if you don't mind, I'd love to have their car registration. I'd love to have their phone number, any potential addresses they would go do, the phone numbers of people they were friends or colleagues. I want all of that. Why? Oh, just in case we have to do something later. But in reality, what I'm going to do, and what I always did, was I went and found that person. I conducted the full investigation without the report. And it usually ended with me calling the person and finally getting a hold of them,

• 1:07:44Derrick Levasseur?

  whether it was directly or by me just being a nuisance and contacting all their friends and being like, hey, listen, I need her to call me. I don't care where she is. She doesn't have to tell me, but I need to hear her voice. And normally, I would get that call. What? What do you want? Listen, sorry. Just so you know, so and so is looking for you. I didn't take a report. You're good to do what you want. I just wanted to hear your voice and have you tell me you're okay. Once I got that, I'm good. So I say all that to say, I don't know where this case is going. But there's a big difference between, hey, I can't do nothing and not making the report. I totally agree with that in most circumstances. Although this one is a little odd. But there should be a follow up in this, in this story

• 1:08:27Derrick Levasseur?

  where you tell me, yeah, Derek, they didn't take the report, but they did contact her and speak with her. That is the proper procedure.

• 1:08:33Stephanie Harlowe?

  Or they, or they contacted her employer, or they contacted this guy that she was last known to be with who Carrie's mom didn't even know. So it's like, well, yeah, this guy could be like a murderer.

• 1:08:43Derrick Levasseur?

  No doubt. No doubt. There should be an investigation. There have been dozens, if not 100 different cases where I was being contacted by a significant other, someone who's, you know, had some stock in where this person was. And they would be calling me after the fact like, yeah, still haven't heard from this person. And I already knew where they were. And I knew they were safe. And I'm like, yeah, listen, unfortunately, sorry, I can't report them. There's more context to these stories sometimes where this person may not want to be found by this other individual, whether I agree with it or not. Not my, not my story to tell, not my decision to make. But I hate when we hear this and because of the technicality of the law, officers wipe their hands clean of it.

• 1:09:26Derrick Levasseur?

  I can't take the report. And this happened on my job, by the way, when I was a supervisor as a sergeant, and I would get the report or the dispatch log, and I would say to them, All right. Did we track them down though? Did we at least put eyes on them or have ears on them? No. What do you mean? No. They're an adult.

• 1:09:42Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah. Talk to Carrie's, talk to Carrie's boss and they'd be like, she never misses work. This is really out of

• 1:09:47Derrick Levasseur?

  One phone call staff.

• 1:09:48Stephanie Harlowe?

  Multiple people. Yeah.

• 1:09:49Derrick Levasseur?

  One phone call, right? One phone call, but they, no, I didn't, she's an adult, right? What can I do? Uh, you can find her. Find her. Make sure she's okay. Call the employer. Like you said, everything you just went through. I want to know that she's okay. And then once we know that I'm good with it, but this, it's nonsense. I get so frustrated with this response and it's, it's prevalent throughout law enforcement because they always rely on this. All right. There should be documentation showing, hey, this is what I did right in the dispatch log. Don't have to pull official case number. Although I didn't take the report because of this, this, and this, I did speak to this person confidentially. They're fine. Normally not the case though, as you know.

• 1:10:29Stephanie Harlowe?

  No, and that's, that's what's annoying. I mean, once again, this I think has changed in recent years.

• 1:10:37Derrick Levasseur?

  And I'm going to give you credit because you've been doing this longer than me and all of you listening and watching. It's the public pressure. It's the embarrassment that comes with them not doing their job. And then podcasters and YouTubers and television shows and streaming services calling them out by just presenting the facts. And all of us going, well, why wouldn't, the conversation we're having right now, well, why wouldn't they have followed up with it? Even if they didn't take an official report. So now there is that policy where supervisors and patrolmen are saying, I don't want to be on Netflix, you know, and, and if that's the reason they're doing it, that's fine.

• 1:11:14Stephanie Harlowe?

  And I'm just the amount of cases where it's been proven that there was something going on that could have been.

• 1:11:19Derrick Levasseur?

  No doubt. You don't know until you follow up on it. They don't want to be on the next episode of Crime Weekly. If that's the reason they're doing it, I'm fine with it, but you are right. There has been a change in recent years. And I strongly do believe it's because of crowd solving and podcasts, and that is one of the benefits to having true crime creators have a platform where they can expose this behavior. And even though they're not legislators, they can, they can. And that change.

• 1:11:45Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well, Nancy pushed back. She told him she understood all of that. Carrie's an adult, whatever. But this wasn't normal for her daughter, and something was wrong. But no matter what Nancy said, her concerns were not taken seriously. And things took an even more difficult turn when the officer asked about mental health, and Nancy shared that Carrie had been diagnosed with bipolar disorder and was on medication. So the officer told her situations like this happen all the time, where someone stops taking their medication, starts acting erratically. Nancy told the officer that wasn't what was happening, but he didn't listen. And the only action he took was entering Carrie into NCIC. So especially if you're having a mental health episode, that's even more of a reason to track Carrie down now, I think, right? So he's like, oh, she's off her meds and she's bipolar and she's acting erratically. This

• 1:12:30Stephanie Harlowe?

  happens all the time. She'll be back. This is even more of a reason to make sure she's okay. Am I wrong?

• 1:12:36Derrick Levasseur?

  Of course. And everyone knows, I think at this point, what NCIC is. Is that fair to say? What do you think?

• 1:12:42Stephanie Harlowe?

  Oh, yeah. Yeah, I think so. Yeah.

• 1:12:43Derrick Levasseur?

  National Crime and Information Center. It's basically a national database that all police departments have access to. You can enter people for missing persons. You can enter stolen vehicles. You can enter anything you can think of. You can, if you're looking for someone, this is the database you would enter it in. And this is where you see in the movies, TV shows, whatever, where they'll, you know, I'll say 37 to 311. Can you run a 28 on or 29 on this person? The dispatcher then looks into NCIC. It's not an internal database. They will run that person, and it will report back if they have any warrants, not only locally, but nationally, right? It'll let you know if it's an extraditable warrant. It's all in there, entered by the individual agencies responsible for uploading that. So

• 1:13:27Derrick Levasseur?

  I will say, this is better than some of the cases I hear, because at least what this does is if, if she's stopped by an officer, whether it's under a good circumstance or a bad one, and they say, hey, what's your name? I just want to enter you into dispatch. At that point, the dispatcher's job is to run all those people, even if it's just like a, just a normal routine stop, like, hey, there's a party going on. I just want to document these people were here. The dispatcher, if, if it's accessible and convenient at the time, if they're not too busy, they're supposed to run those people to make sure that there's no violent offenders, nobody with warrants. And at that point, they would respond back to the officer and say, hey, just so you know, that person's currently entered as missing. And that's where you go from there. So I like the fact that they at least did that.

• 1:14:10Stephanie Harlowe?

  It was the least they could do, yeah.

• 1:14:12Derrick Levasseur?

  And you know, we've done this a long time. That's not even the case a lot of the time. But I think the standard should be, I'm not only going to enter her into NCIC and hope that someone runs into her.

• 1:14:24Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well, he probably did that because of the bipolar, because of her not having her medication.

• 1:14:28Derrick Levasseur?

  I agree, but he should have went and found her for those reasons. He should have conducted his own independent investigation, confirmed she was okay, and then you don't need to enter into NCIC because you already know she's fine. So there's an acknowledgement that she could be in danger by entering her into NCIC because you're not supposed to if you think she's fine, and yet no investigations conducted. They're contradictory, the actions. So I don't like it.

• 1:14:53Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well, it was like the easiest thing you could do without having to do anything.

• 1:14:55Derrick Levasseur?

  Thank you. It's laziness. They just don't want to be involved.

• 1:14:58Stephanie Harlowe?

  So then on Saturday, November 17th, Carrie's phone texted her mother Nancy again, this time asking Nancy to let a woman into Carrie's house to pick up a bedroom set she had supposedly purchased. The text included a photo of a $5,000 check made out to Carrie with bedroom set written on the memo line. There were immediate red flags for Nancy. For starters, Carrie didn't have a matching bedroom set. Her furniture was a mix of antiques, many of which had been in the family for generations, and Nancy couldn't imagine her selling any of it. The check itself also looked suspicious. It was a starter check. So they're the ones that you get at the bank before your real checks come. There's no name or address printed on them like a normal check would have. So the whole thing felt off, like someone was pretending to be Carrie.

• 1:15:43Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, no phone call, by the way. All text message.

• 1:15:46Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:46Derrick Levasseur?

  That to me as well is a red flag because I'd say, hey, can you call me quick?

• 1:15:50Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:51Derrick Levasseur?

  You know, can I hear your voice?

• 1:15:52Stephanie Harlowe?

  Then that's exactly what Nancy did. Nancy texted back saying she needed to hear Carrie's voice before she would do anything.

• 1:15:58Derrick Levasseur?

  I love it.

• 1:15:59Stephanie Harlowe?

  And then the responses became angry, calling Nancy a bad and controlling mother, and that confirmed it for Nancy because the person texting her was not Carrie. Carrie had never spoken to Nancy like that, not once. They had a good relationship. They were supportive of each other. They weren't a toxic family dynamic. And clearly the person- And texting did not know that and the messages themselves had grammatical and spelling issues which was another red flag because Carrie was very particular about things like that even in texts. So Nancy contacted the police again relaying information about the conversation but they still didn't see it as concerning.

• 1:16:34Derrick Levasseur?

  Ridiculous.

• 1:16:34Stephanie Harlowe?

  I know. They believed Carrie was fine and would come back and part of that may have been because her Facebook and phone remained active. In fact, multiple people in Carrie's life, including Carrie's mother Nancy, Carrie's son Max, and Carrie's friend Amber kept receiving messages from Carrie's phone. Dave also received dozens of messages a day telling him he belonged to Carrie and referring to Liz as a whore. So it wasn't long before Liz reached out to Dave and told him that his crazy ex Carrie had found her number and address and was harassing her as well. She claimed she was receiving threatening messages and that Carrie had even broken into her garage and spray painted the words whore from Dave on the wall. Liz told Dave how upset

• 1:17:16Stephanie Harlowe?

  she was to be targeted by his stalker. And Dave thought things with Liz were over and he hadn't planned to see her again, but now he felt obligated. He felt bad. He felt he had to meet with her and talk about what was going on. He apologized for what was happening to her. She accepted and they started seeing each other. They started seeing each other again on and off.

• 1:17:39Derrick Levasseur?

  I'm not a fan of Dave in case you can't tell.

• 1:17:41Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah. So basically Liz planned this whole elaborate thing and she she got what she wanted out of it.

• 1:17:46Derrick Levasseur?

  Allegedly.

• 1:17:47Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, I'm not. I'm not a big fan of Dave either. I'm gonna be honest. So things did remain rocky as they would, but one thing always seemed to pull them back together and that was the fact that over the next three years, both Liz and Dave would be the targets of a relentless stalking campaign that would escalate into arson, gun violence, and more. So Liz is orchestrating a trauma bond to keep this man in her life for three years.

• 1:18:18Derrick Levasseur?

  Insane.

• 1:18:19Stephanie Harlowe?

  Insane. All of that's gonna have to wait though, Derek.

• 1:18:22Derrick Levasseur?

  It's gonna have to wait, but I do want to round this episode out by saying this could have been solved very quickly.

• 1:18:29Stephanie Harlowe?

  I can't believe that they let Carrie be missing for three years.

• 1:18:32Derrick Levasseur?

  No, it's insane. Just as simple as. Hey Nancy, I see you're receiving phone calls from Carrie. She won't call you back. Okay, we know how to solve that. We're gonna take this as a report. We're gonna secretly call AT&T, Verizon, whatever service she has. This is 2012, right? We're gonna get the coordinates for that phone. And we're gonna have you keep interacting with this person so that they keep their phone on, which is gonna result in more pings. We're gonna triangulate it, we're gonna pin it down, we're gonna go to that location. We're gonna locate Carrie or the person with her phone, and we're gonna figure out what happened to her. Done, case over. This person thinks they're in the clear, they're gonna keep their phone on, they're interacting with people. It's solved. I mean, this is not brain surgery. And so, the fact that none of that was done, or even just,

• 1:19:17Derrick Levasseur?

  I wouldn't have gone this route. I like to be a little bit more creative, but if you were really lazy, you could also just leave a voicemail on Carrie's phone saying, "Hey, this is Officer Levasseur. I need you to call me back immediately. If you don't, we're gonna report you missing." And then if you don't get a phone call back, then you know something's up. But I wouldn't have done that route because it spooks not only potentially Carrie, but who has her phone. I would have gone the other route, file the report, get it approved, go to a judge, get the search warrant for the phone, track her down, make sure she's okay, or get the drop on the person who's currently in possession of her phone because the people closest to her, her own mother, who knows her better than you, is saying it's not her. What more credible witness do you need in that? So that's what I would have done.

• 1:20:02Stephanie Harlowe?

  And she never comes back and just leaves her son and her life and everything behind?

• 1:20:06Derrick Levasseur?

  No, it's crazy. And I'm frustrated not because of the case, I'm frustrated because I know this is a multi-parter. And the reality is, we shouldn't be covering it. It should have been a slam dunk. None of this other stuff that you're gonna cover for the next couple of episodes should even have transpired. And when you go down to the foundation of why that occurred, it's law enforcement. It's the inaction, it's the laziness, it's the incompetence, it's all of that. And that is my job here. Like, I can't defend this. None of this other stuff, like, they probably couldn't have stopped whatever happened to Carrie. I don't know what happened to her yet. I'm hoping you tell me that she's still out there. My gut tells me that's not the case. And they may not have been able to prevent that.

• 1:20:50Derrick Levasseur?

  That's on some other people, and we'll get into that, but...

• 1:20:53Stephanie Harlowe?

  But the whole, it going on for three years?

• 1:20:56Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, this is on law enforcement, this is at their feet. Obviously, the person responsible, which... I think we're all looking, we're all looking in Liz's direction, right?

• 1:21:05Stephanie Harlowe?

  We're all looking at you, Liz.

• 1:21:06Derrick Levasseur?

  We're all looking at you, but there's so much, there's so many more layers to this and I'm glad you're covering it because just like with Crime Weekly News earlier this week, talking about Athena Strand, right? There's not a lot we can do to go back and change what happened. We can only learn from it and this is an opportunity to learn from it and call out bad police work because again, like we said mid-episode here, the public pressure and the exposure to this, to this bad police work is in a way effectively how we get it to stop. By having our own people, meaning me, calling them out, saying, "You're morons. What are you doing?" And if for no other reason than that, it usually does have people say, "I don't want to get called out, man. I'm gonna go cover my bases."

• 1:21:50Stephanie Harlowe?

  I don't want people to know I'm a moron.

• 1:21:52Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, exactly. And if you are, just quit, just quit, man. Go find another job. But this is an insane case.

• 1:21:59Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:00Derrick Levasseur?

  This is, I can understand why, you said there's a book about it?

• 1:22:04Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, and a NAN rulebook.

• 1:22:06Derrick Levasseur?

  Oh yeah, man. This is like, I can, I can only wait to, I can only imagine where this is gonna go, but uh, it's, it's an interesting one, that's for sure. Um, any final words from you? There's one other announcement I had to make, but that was it.

• 1:22:19Stephanie Harlowe?

  No, I'm good. I, I mean...

• 1:22:21Derrick Levasseur?

  Just a real quick one for anybody who doesn't know, Stephanie and I have a coffee company called Criminal Coffee. We donate a portion of the profits to solving cold cases. We also donate to foundations that are there to support victims and their families and also try to find the bad guys. Right now, for anybody who doesn't know, go over to CriminalCoffeeCo.com. We have a few sales going on, but one of the biggest ones are for our decaf drinkers. If you haven't tried decaf or you're someone who wants to stock up on it, we have decaf K-cups. We're gonna have small runs in the future, but right now, we have an extreme discount on it because we want more people to try it. Lowest price we've ever had, it'll be up on the screen here. We also have flavored coffees like hazelnut, French vanilla, and then our singular roasts like undercover roast, Alias, and Rogue.

• 1:23:04Derrick Levasseur?

  Rogue is probably our most popular.

• 1:23:07Stephanie Harlowe?

  Hazelnut is so good, too.

• 1:23:08Derrick Levasseur?

  Yep, they're all great. And again, portion of the profits go to solving cold cases. We have a couple... Couple other cases we're working on right now and we're continuously donating to foundations. And you're able to go on to the website for transparency purposes and see where your money is going. So if you want to support that cause and get a great cup of coffee, go check us out at CriminalCoffeeCo.com. That's going to do it for us, guys. We're going to be back next week. Until then, everyone stay safe out there. We'll see you soon.

• 1:23:34Stephanie Harlowe?

  Bye.