Behind the Scenes with an early OpenClaw contributor! | E2252

This Week In Startups is made possible by: Lemon IO - https://Lemon.io/twist Every.io - https://every.io Sentry.io- https://sentry.io/twist Today's show: We're going behind the curtain today — it's a packed show! We found Tyler Yust, OpenClaw's third EVER contributor to share his insights from within foundation! We've got Deedy Das, of Menlo Ventures, on the show to discuss whether SaaS is cooked! Next we met the creator of an OpenClaw instance that fits in your pocket! We've also got the founder of OpenBrowse showing us how he automatically detects and generates OpenClaw skills! Timestamps: 00:00 Intro - Deedy Das Joins the Show!04:54 Anthropic's revenue growth and valuation06:07 OpenClaw Contributor Tyler Yuts joins the show09:24 iMessage integration and Apple's proprietary systems 00:10:07 Lemon.io - Get 15% off your first 4 weeks of developer time at https://Lemon.io/twist14:31 Anthropic vs. the Pentagon 00:20:02 Every.io - For all of your incorporation, banking, payroll, benefits, accounting, taxes or other back-office administration needs, visit https://every.io. 00:30:08 Sentry - New users can get $240 in free credits when they go to https://sentry.io/twist and use the code TWIST 00:35:46 The Infamous Citrini article00:32:47 Come to LAUNCH fest! https://fest.launch.co00:36:28 Why Deedy thinks the Cetrini article is a work of science fiction00:44:51 The illusion of privacy in corporate America00:41:18 Deedy thinks Enterprise SaaS apps aren't going to be vibe coded00:49:20 Jason's Reddit Bot00:52:01 Jason's obsession with Singapore's food00:55:22 How Unbrowse pulls any backend API!01:02:07 Sebastian shows off the smallest OpenClaw form factor!01:12:04 The Prolo ring — for people who doomscroll01:20:21 Deedy's Podcast Player App! Thank you to our partners: (10:07) Lemon.io - Get 15% off your first 4 weeks of developer time at https://Lemon.io/twist (20:02) Every.io - For all of your incorporation, banking, payroll, benefits, accounting, taxes or other back-office administration needs, visit every.io. (30:08) Sentry - New users can get $240 in free credits when they go to sentry.io/twist and use the code TWIST Subscribe to the TWiST500 newsletter: https://ticker.thisweekinstartups.com Check out the TWIST500: https://www.twist500.com Subscribe to This Week in Startups on Apple: https://rb.gy/v19fcp Follow Lon: X: https://x.com/lons Follow Alex: X: https://x.com/alex LinkedIn: ⁠https://www.linkedin.com/in/alexwilhelm Follow Jason: X: https://twitter.com/Jason LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jasoncalacanis Check out all our partner offers: https://partners.launch.co/ Great TWIST interviews: Will Guidara, Eoghan McCabe, Steve Huffman, Brian Chesky, Bob Moesta, Aaron Levie, Sophia Amoruso, Reid Hoffman, Frank Slootman, Billy McFarland Check out Jason's suite of newsletters: https://substack.com/@calacanis Follow TWiST: Twitter: https://twitter.com/TWiStartups YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/thisweekin Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thisweekinstartups TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@thisweekinstartups Substack: https://twistartups.substack.com

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jason Calacanis?

  Welcome back to Twist. Today is February 25th, 2026. I have to say this because, hey, it is AO31. That's right. After Open Claw, day 31. All of our lives started when this incredible software dropped. And now we can actually get on with the great singularity. What is Open Claw? Well, we've been talking about, as I said, for 31 days on this podcast. When we see a trend, we keep digging into it. We keep double dot, we keep doubling down on it until it stops changing everything. Open Claw is an open source piece of software. What does it do? It helps you create agents. We call them replicants, AI agents. And it's getting better and better every day to the

• 0:42Jason Calacanis?

  point at which people are reporting that they can give it 10, 20% of their work every week consistently, and that they're building companies with 20 or 30 replicants working on them, you know, to every three humans. So maybe a five to one ratio, a 10 to one ratio. With us to talk about this incredible trend and all the news that's happening, Didi Das from Menlo Ventures. Didi, how are you doing?

• 1:09Speaker 01

  Great. Thank you for having me, Jason.

• 1:11Jason Calacanis?

  It's good to have you on. You're very, oh, look at your all in. Where did you get that all in logo behind you?

• 1:18Speaker 01

  Turns out it's a common catchphrase. And so we do, we do all in on AI.

• 1:23Jason Calacanis?

  Ah, got it. Okay, there you go. Well, that is our trademark and you'll be hearing from our attorneys momentarily. Well, we'll send them over there.

• 1:33Speaker 02

  This week in startups is brought to you by Sentry. Your team should be focused on shipping features, not chasing down bugs. New users can get $240 in free credits when they go to sentry.io/twist and use the code TWIST. Every.io for all your incorporation, banking, payroll, benefits, accounting, taxes, or other back office administration needs. Visit every.io. And lemon.io. Building a great team is essential to any business. Lemon is a marketplace of vetted, experienced engineers ready to take your company to the next level. Get 15% off your first four of developer time at lemon.io/ twist and lemon.io. Building a great team is essential to any business.

• 2:18Speaker 02

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• 2:31Jason Calacanis?

  So explain to people, you know, sort of your hot take on what we're seeing with OpenClaw. And, you know, these new models that are, I believe, we'll see what you think, DeeDee. I believe they're a step function better recently. And by recently, I mean, in the last 12 months, it feels like something has changed. What's your take?

• 2:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, look, 4.6 Opus is the most incredible thing that I have ever played with. I just, I look back 12 months ago. The core change that happened with model developers, I think, is initially, the biggest launch was 2024. End of 2024, we had reasoning models. That was mind blowing. But reasoning models fundamentally were trained to give you great answers to complicated questions. I think it's around March or April of 2025, where people started waking up and saying, you know, we need to post train models to call back to the model itself and do long running tasks. That's when tool calling and long running tasks

• 3:38Speaker 01

  and what we call agentic behavior really started working. And I think with Claude Code, it was very obvious to people that that paradigm was going to do way more valuable work than just single Q and A. And I mean, the rest is kind of, kind of almost becoming history. It's Claude Code is the fastest growing product of all time. This is a, you know, nearly $3 billion run rate product a year.

• 4:06Jason Calacanis?

  I mean Claude's revenue is pretty stunning and I'm not sure what the latest run rate is. Do you know DeeDee?

• 4:14Speaker 01

  I think the latest reported one was publicly was 2.5 just for Claude Code.

• 4:20Jason Calacanis?

  Just for Claude Code.

• 4:21Speaker 01

  For 14 and that was what they released when they announced their 380 billion dollar funding round. None of these numbers make any sense for anyone who lived five years ago.

• 4:33Jason Calacanis?

  Well, wait, in what way? Like the, the, the revenue, the sales to valuation number, the growth of the revenue? Which piece do you think?

• 4:42Speaker 01

  Both. I mean, I don't think the, the revenue multiple is astounding here, given the growth. If you do a plot of revenue and growth rate, Anthropic is not an outlier. It's a pretty reasonable valuation for a revenue run rate and a growth rate for most companies. We've just never seen companies grow this fast.

• 5:02Jason Calacanis?

  Yeah.

• 5:03Speaker 01

  Zero, 100 million, a billion, and then 10 billion in three years is just not a company growth trajectory we've ever seen in history.

• 5:13Jason Calacanis?

  So it looks like Anthropic is saying their annualized reoccurring revenue, whatever that means, is 14 billion, up from 1 billion, 14. Yeah, it's a basic run rate, I guess. And so they raised 30 billion at 380 billion. So if we put these numbers together, you know, 10 times 14 billion would be 140, 20 times would be 280. So it looks like 25 times revenue ballpark, 25 times revenue, I'm sorry, yeah, total revenue, not earnings, not profits, just total. They're losing a ton of money on this. Yeah, we'll see if that winds up

• 5:53Jason Calacanis?

  being sustainable or not. Also with us on the program today, Tyler Yust. You are the third person, Tyler, I understand, to join the Open Claw team. You discovered the project on GitHub and you just volunteered to make it better. You're 22 years old and you studied to be an aerospace engineer at San Jose State. And tell us a little bit about how you discovered Open Claw and why you went all in on it.

• 6:21Speaker 03

  Yeah, thank you so much for having me. It's a pleasure. I discovered OpenClaw on Twitter late December, so I believe it was the first guy who like started the whole Discord thing was named The Will of Shadow, I believe. So he was posting it on X and was like, hey, if we have something, check out our Discord. I joined the Discord and it's like this little AI bot living in the Discord. I was like, oh, what, what, what is this? This seems interesting. And then it's Peter talking to it, giving it tasks and it's going off to do tasks. I've never seen anything like this. I was like, wow, this could be something very big.

• 7:01Speaker 03

  So that, that's, that was at the moment, I was like, okay, maybe I should start focusing on this a little.

• 7:07Jason Calacanis?

  Now, did you have a full-time job at the, or were you in school at the time? What were you doing when you found this open source project?

• 7:14Speaker 03

  So I was just working on like my own projects at the time.

• 7:19Speaker 03

  Mostly like just indie dev work, I guess, like a social media analytics platform. That's really been my main thing right now.

• 7:26Jason Calacanis?

  Got it. So you didn't have a full-time job to start working on this. Now, what is your role in the open source project? And maybe for the audience that's unaware about the dynamics of how an open source project works on, you know, GitHub and the dynamics around it. Maybe you could just give them a little primer of how, you know, a open source project works versus working at a big company like Anthropic, building a credible product like Claude, Opus 4.6 and CoWork and all their other incredible products.

• 7:56Speaker 03

  Yeah, open source is definitely, for OpenClaw, it's a crazy world because we're getting about like a pull request, which is someone submitting code to the codebase. We get those around like every five minutes and we're about, we're like 4,000 pull requests right now. So it's kind of impossible to go through all them at the moment.

• 8:16Jason Calacanis?

  And so these are developers out there who've become enamored with the project. And they just say, here, I added this piece of code to the project that I think the project should have. And then it's up to somebody in this non-corporate structure to accept it. So explain who gets to accept the pull requests and how that works in governance in a project as. I mean, is this like the most starred project on GitHub Stars? There's kind of like votes up? I think it is.

• 8:45Speaker 03

  I believe it's second right now. We're about to pass the first one, which I think is React. We're pretty close. We're getting, we're getting there. In terms of roles, it's, it's something like this is pretty chaotic, but we have certain people focusing on certain things. So for example, I usually search on, for the, on the pull request, I search like cron jobs or subagents or like iMessage. So I'm in charge of those three areas. That's primarily what I focus on. And then if anyone sees it's something that's related to one of those three areas I am focusing on, then they send it my way. They just at me in Discord and be like, hey, can you review this and see if it's able to get merged?

• 9:25Jason Calacanis?

  This iMessage integration is really interesting because Apple is notoriously unhelpful when people try to circumvent their iOS, you know, proprietary systems, the most proprietary of which is the blue bubble versus the green bubble. Green being, you know, Android users and they don't get all the features. So we put our replicants or started to put our replicants on Mac Mini's so they could natively do iMessage. But explain to people why this is important to people to have native iMessage or, and then what's Apple's typical reaction in the community around getting hooks into iMessage?

• 10:07Jason Calacanis?

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• 10:49Jason Calacanis?

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• 11:10Speaker 03

  What I integrated was another open source project. This is called Blue Bubbles, which allows for blue bubbles on iMessage. So all you do is connect that and then you can start talking to your OpenClaw like a normal human almost. The primary reason I use iMessage is because I don't like having tons of different apps. I already have ChatGPT, I have Claude, I have Perplexity. I don't need another app to talk to my chatbot. I just want to talk to it almost like a friend that's just being super helpful for me.

• 11:39Speaker 01

  What are the coolest things people have done with OpenClaw that you've seen?

• 11:43Speaker 03

  Oh, that's a great question. I honestly, the stuff I've been doing is awesome. So I would say the first week of January, right when it came out, I was like, oh, I need to do my taxes. So I gave it access to my Mercury account, just read access. And also I created a QuickBooks account and created like an API skill for that. And then I was like, okay, I have all these transactions. I have QuickBooks set up. Are you able to create a P and L for me? And it's been, I was ChatGPT 5.2 Codex at the time. I spent two and a half hours working on this, this like reconciliation of my QuickBooks. And I came back two hours later and I was like, oh, like everything's in. I categorized everything.

• 12:28Speaker 03

  You're all good for tax. I was like, what? What do you, what do you mean? I looked over and I was like, okay, this is, this is getting somewhere. This is pretty crazy.

• 12:37Speaker 01

  Wow, I have a follow up question for you, which is, you know, I've, I've used OpenClaw in my little Mac mini setup, which is like very isolated from the rest of my stuff because I'm a little bit paranoid. But how do you reconcile the differences between something like an OpenClaw, something like Claude Code, CoWork, all of these different things? You know, what are the primary reasons you use one over the other?

• 13:01Speaker 03

  I think it's mostly what you want to get done. Like Claude Code is really only good for like coding. For example, I still use it for most of my coding. And then OpenClaw I would use for like checking my emails, sending my emails, booking things on my calendar, setting reminders, updating my Notion pages, like all those things that Claude Code can't really do. But on top of OpenClaw, I also do do some coding. So for example, if I'm like laying in bed at say like 11:00 PM or something, I would say like, hey, can you go do this at 1:00 AM? And then do another thing at 2:00 AM? And I wake up and it's like a full day of work is done. I'm like, oh, this is, this is great. I wake up to a full day of work done every day.

• 13:40Speaker 01

  God, and do you think that's primarily because of the integrations that come out of the box with it? I mean, because like I imagine like what I'm trying to reconcile with myself is I'm such a power user of Claude Code that I tend to bake in my own integrations into that and make it do non-coding tasks. But or do you think there's something else that's really, really special about how you can do the Telegram and the iMessage and kind of have context across everything? Go a little bit deeper there.

• 14:05Speaker 03

  Yeah, of course. So I believe right now, I think OpenClaw is really the only one that could kind of improve itself. I don't, I can't speak much on Claude Code, but I can give OpenClaw like, like, for example, all the skills I have, like checking my mail and stuff. I was like, just go figure this out and write a skill for it. And then from there on, it's able to do it every single time. I don't think there's really another program that's able to almost learn in that way.

• 14:31Speaker 01

  That's awesome. That's awesome.

• 14:33Jason Calacanis?

  Gentlemen, I wanted to talk to you about a story that's kind of trending here, which is Anthropic versus the Pentagon. I don't want to get too political here, but we all think about the power of AI. We're seeing it in white collar work. We're seeing it obviously in self-driving and factory work. We all assume, hey, AI is going to impact those two areas. But we might not be thinking about the military and how they use it. Anthropic, we just discussed, Dee Dee has incredible model. And they also have a $200 million contract with the Defense Department. It's actually really good, obviously. So the Defense Department loves this product.

• 15:13Jason Calacanis?

  But they want to use it a little more vibrantly, let's say. They want to take the guardrails off of it. And Dario from

• 15:25Jason Calacanis?

  Anthropic is like, hey, we have a couple of areas where we have concerns. This is our tool and we don't want you to use it for areas where we think it's prone to abuse or that might be illegitimate. The Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth, he says, you have until Friday. Remove the safety constraints because we want to use it in any legal fashion, as in military legal fashion. There's two issues that Anthropic really cares about. One of them is enabling murder bots, robots that kill things. They don't want to have their technology used to program the automatic death of another

• 16:09Jason Calacanis?

  soldier, a human being via robots, I assume. I don't know how drones fit into that, but non-human in the loop, I think, is Dario's point. The second thing is they don't want it used for mass surveillance and to break the right to privacy that humans have. There is all kinds of talk that they may use like this act that we have in the Constitution, I believe, or it's maybe it was given by Congress to the President. I forgot the name of it, but there's this act that they use during, the War Powers Act, yeah, I think is what it's called. And that act, Defense Production Act of 1950, sorry, that's what it is. They're saying, hey, we might just take over this technology and we'll tell you what you're

• 16:54Jason Calacanis?

  going to do with it. DeeDee, what are your thoughts about the two granular issues here? And then just what is the responsibility of technologists building technology this powerful?

• 17:06Speaker 01

  This is a really tough, tough philosophical question of our times, you know? I mean, we sort of, everyone knew this was going to be a question as AI got more powerful. It's a question when it comes to Anthropic and its user base is, user base too, but the user base can't. Legally force Anthropic to do anything and the user base can't coalesce to be a very powerful entity. The US government, on the other hand, is an extremely powerful entity. And Anthropic, being a US-based corporation, has to operate under their rules. And that's when it becomes a little bit tough. Who do I think should have the responsibility of being the moral arbiter of technology this powerful? Frankly, I don't know. I mean,

• 17:50Speaker 01

  do I think Anthropic will probably do a better job just because they have more control and understanding of the power of the technology? Maybe, but even then, it's really not clear to me. Regulation doesn't always seem to be a good answer. And the military, of course, they want guardrails off. I mean, that's unsurprising to anyone, too. But this goes down an extremely slippery slope, right? Even the kind of things we've seen models do, which are already pretty guard-rail, can get fairly scary in the limit when it comes to just like the impact on cybersecurity. You know, you can have these things run loose and completely take down systems publicly. And, you know, if you bring those guardrails

• 18:33Speaker 01

  loose, this is a pretty serious weapon. But wars don't always get won on missiles and drones. They get won on, you know, cyber warfare.

• 18:43Jason Calacanis?

  Intelligence.

• 18:44Speaker 01

  Intelligence, disrupting ops. And, you know, we know the Venezuela thing.

• 18:48Jason Calacanis?

  Regime change. Yeah, lots of different ways to do this. And what's really interesting about this is if they don't comply, Hegseth would then designate Anthropic as a supply chain risk, Tyler, which means they lose all of their government contracts. They're basically blacklisted. So this is, could be a billion dollars a year. It could be eventually five or 10 billion dollars a year. Who knows what these military contracts will be worth? You're a young guy, Tyler. How do you think about all this incredible technology being used for war? And, you know, the technologists, you're part of a certain

• 19:32Jason Calacanis?

  generation. I'm Gen X. I think, DeeDee, you're a millennial. I'm guessing. And I don't know, Tyler, you're 21, 22? How old are you?

• 19:40Speaker 01

  22.

• 19:41Jason Calacanis?

  22. So what does that make you? Are you like a Gen Z? You're Gen Alpha, I guess?

• 19:46Speaker 03

  Something like that.

• 19:47Jason Calacanis?

  Something like that. Who knows what these designation means? But how do you look at that? Like if they were taking your open source work and using it to make murder bots or, you know, killer soldiers that killed or a surveillance state? How would you feel about it? And what do you, what do you think about this? Bruhaha. If you're launching a new business, meeting with potential investors, or you're just looking to raise some fresh capital, it's time for you to check out our pals at Everi. They'll take care of your incorporation, your banking, your payroll, your benefits and more. So you can focus on building, not just paperwork. And let me tell you, it's so painful to do all these chores and you want somebody who's a great partner, who will do it perfectly every time. There are tons of options for apps that want to simplify running your company. But Everi are the experts at working with startups.

• 20:31Jason Calacanis?

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• 21:14Speaker 03

  Yeah, definitely. Don't prefer that. Like the reason I got out of aerospace was because the only like line of work would be like working with Lockheed, which is creating missiles to kill people, which isn't like the best in ethics, in my opinion. Like I don't want to be part of something like that. So using AI to do that, it's definitely, in my opinion, not the best. But if we don't do it, someone else probably will. So we would fall behind in that way. So it's definitely a sticky situation.

• 21:45Jason Calacanis?

  Yeah, you know, I've been thinking about this one a lot. I haven't figured out exactly what my position is, but working through it out loud, a private company has the ability to choose and have the freedom to choose how their technology is used. So if Anthropic says, "I don't want to be involved in this," they have that right. And the military obviously has the right to say, "Hey, we're just not going to use your technology." So that seems like where this is going to go. Anthropic is going to be blacklisted by the government, and they're going to lose that contract. And then the people who work at Anthropic get to come to work every day, knowing they're not working on those things. You can make a judgment. Is that patriotic? Are they pacifists? Are they doing it for religious reasons, ethical reasons? Well, that's up to them, right? We have a certain amount of freedom in this

• 22:30Jason Calacanis?

  country. And then there are other providers who will provide the technology. What I do think about here is, what if we were in an emergency situation? China invades Taiwan, or, you know, it was World War II, you know, I don't know, Pearl Harbor happens, the Germans invade France, and you would say, "Well," or if the Germans had landed on Long Island, like they were planning on doing, you know, you would then say, "Hey, we've got to protect the country." You might have a different approach. You might say, "We're going to seize this company's assets and use it for war production." And that would be a different scenario. So I kind of, I don't want to both sides it, but people do have some freedom

• 23:14Jason Calacanis?

  here. If you went to Elon and said SpaceX, you know, "Hey, we're being invaded by the Russians or the Chinese. We need all your rockets to do this military purpose." I think that would be a different condition than going to SpaceX and saying, "Hey, we want you to build nuclear missiles. We want to put on the Falcon Heavy. We want to co-op that, and we want to use the moon station for putting nuclear bombs and, you know, anti-satellite technology." Like, they would have the ability to opt out of that, unless it was an emergency situation. I can't believe we're here already, but we're here already, folks. And then combined with, go ahead.

• 23:53Speaker 01

  You know, it's gonna probably end up like a bit of a prisoner's dilemma situation, right? You have four labs at least that have, you know, are within one month or two of each other in terms of what their capabilities are in some sense. So if Anthropic says no, Grok says yes, or, you know, OpenAI says yes. So I think it's a bit of an inevitable thing, whether we like it or not, that one of these companies will bend into the giant DoD contract.

• 24:21Jason Calacanis?

  Yeah.

• 24:23Speaker 01

  So I think the ball is out of our court in some sense.

• 24:27Jason Calacanis?

  And not to mention, Tyler, we have open source models. So I'm curious your thoughts just generally, we'll leave the, um, the, uh, Donnybrook between Claude, Anthropic and, uh, the, the military aside for a second. But what is the state of Kimi and the various open source projects as models in your mind today? And how do you see them being incorporated into OpenClaw in the near term? One to three years and in the long term, four to 10 years?

• 25:04Speaker 03

  Open models are still about like six to 12 months behind the frontier labs at this point. In terms of using them in OpenClaw, I haven't really touched that at all. But I would say in about, who knows, three months, six months, primary model people will use for OpenClaw would probably be an open source one that they could run on like a Mac Studio, for example. So it's all fully local. You're not sending anything to the cloud.

• 25:29Jason Calacanis?

  Why is that a inevitability in your mind? Why are people going to choose to do that?

• 25:35Speaker 03

  Because right now you're still making your request to Anthropic, to OpenAI, and they still, whatever you talk about, they are getting that data, for example. So if it's something personal, I believe in their terms and condition, they can use that for their training data, even though it's anonymous. But if you're using an open source model, it's running locally on your computer, there's no that like in-between person from sending off that request and getting it back to you.

• 25:58Jason Calacanis?

  It also, just to educate our audience, I moved one of my replicants from a virtual machine onto a Mac Mini this past weekend. I noticed it's snappier, it's faster, and it's more reliable. Is that the case, that it's much more reliable and native in addition to the privacy when you run it on a local machine, in your experience?

• 26:20Speaker 03

  It depends. Like, you're talking about running like a model locally?

• 26:25Jason Calacanis?

  Not the model, just running OpenClaw on a Mac Mini with a decent amount of memory seems more responsive to me, and less janky. You know, like when I'm talking to it in Slack, or I now have it set up over SMS to a number that only I can respond to, over Twilio. Now, it just seems more stable, it seems faster on a Mac Mini than in a VM on AWS.

• 26:50Speaker 03

  I don't think it makes that much of a difference. I would say it's more primarily like two factors right now. There's tons of updates going out, improving speed and just quality of the code. As well as, these models are getting a little bit faster. So like, like three weeks ago, these models were doing like 30 tokens per second, which was like, what is that, 15 words per second? And now they're up to like 50 or 60. So that speed alone definitely like makes it feel like these models are getting faster.

• 27:16Jason Calacanis?

  Yeah, the two constraining issues I'm having right now with OpenClaw is the speed and threadedness of it. I want to be able to have my one replicant doing like 10 jobs at once, as opposed to 10 replicants. What do you think the future of that is, the speed and the parallel nature of it? And any tips on optimizing your replicant slash OpenClaw agent for this task?

• 27:44Speaker 03

  Yeah, so that's primarily what I've really been focusing on. I have a, in like the tools.md file for the OpenClaw, a rule that says, anytime you need to make more than two or three tool calls, just spawn a subagent. So what that subagent does, it works in the background, so you could still chat with it on Slack, and it doesn't interfere with anything. And while that subagent is going, it's working, it's doing all that like hard work that takes 15, 20 minutes, and then reports back to the main agent saying, hey, here's your results. And you just get the results. You don't have to wait for it to like...

• 28:19Jason Calacanis?

  Is that going to be automated this like shouldn't it know to just every request want a subagent?

• 28:25Speaker 03

  Yeah, some people don't really want it because once again, you're using more tokens when you do create a subagent. Because I mean, it has to recreate like the the memory, the prompt and memory and stuff. So it was 20,000 tokens.

• 28:40Speaker 03

  But yeah, I I think we should lean towards going towards like subagents, just so the main thread is always like quick to respond.

• 28:47Jason Calacanis?

  Yeah, this seems to me like the inevitable architecture. We have Mac Studios on order. I understand there's a new Mac Studio coming that's going to be designed natively to run language models. Dee Dee, what does this tell us about Apple's brilliance? In 2008, Steve Jobs did a skunk work project to get off of Intel and make his own silicon. It, I think, dropped in 2017 or 2018, when like the M1 and all these different things started to drop and the one on the iPhone. And then, so that's 10 years after the initial idea, basically, it landed. And then another seven or eight years, eight years later, it actually, uh, language models came out.

• 29:29Jason Calacanis?

  And this might be the perfect solution for solving that problem. So once again, Steve Jobs sees around two or three corners, knowing he needs to get his on his own silicon. They never built out their huge data center. They never did a CapEx. They never did their own language model. And here they are, they find themselves at the center of the discussion again with their desktops. What what's your take on that, Dee Dee? Because I'm absolutely enthralled with Steve Jobs's like behind the back, off the billboard, off the backboard, three point shot here. It's like a Steph Curry, you know, full court from the tunnel shot. Debugging sucks and it takes up time.

• 30:11Jason Calacanis?

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• 30:56Jason Calacanis?

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• 31:00Speaker 01

  Oh yeah, like hindsight's 2020 and in hindsight, Steve Jobs pulled off another miracle. I mean, I think if you break it down to the first principles, like why are Mac Mini so popular for this? It's because people want a sandboxed personal computer with less side effects on their actual system to run a bunch of highly personal tasks connected to their own systems, right? That's why Mac Mini's were became so popular for something like OpenClaw. Now, what does the future of that look like? I, there's two worlds. I think both of them will coexist. I think people will continue to, whether it's a Mac Mini, it's the kind of easiest machine to buy and get set up with something like this. But also, you know, it's going to be inevitable that this is going to come to the big model

• 31:45Speaker 01

  of apps as well. And, and what does that look like? It's just going to run, it's just might be much less private and it's going to run on the cloud with a bunch of your integrations on every single app that you might use. And I would be hard pressed, I don't have any insider information. I'd be hard pressed to, to argue that they are not going to come out with some version of a long running agent on an OpenClaw competitor or, or clone or a version of that that also does that on the cloud.

• 32:14Jason Calacanis?

  Absolutely awesome. Hey, listen, Tyler, I know I've got to drop you off because you got a 1pm meeting. Wanted to let you know that I've brought back the Launch Festival. This is a conference I started, oh gosh, it was originally called TechCrunch 50, then I made it Launch Fest. Basically free for founders, free to present. Why did I create this? Well, when I came into the industry, I couldn't afford the $2,000 to $5,000 it costs to go to demo and all these other services. And I decided, why don't I make it free to be on stage, make it merit based? Why don't I make it free to attend if you're a founder? How do I afford to do this? Well, I just don't make a profit off of it. And then I let VIPs buy a ticket and we sell a certain number of VIP tickets to come to a VIP lunch with me and the speakers. And

• 32:55Jason Calacanis?

  We're going to do it March 16th and 17th in San Francisco. Go to fest-launch.co. If you're a founder, you buy a ticket, you pay 20 bucks. If you show up and pick up your ticket, we give you literally your 20 bucks back. Tyler, I wanted to give you two tickets to come. And then if you have something really cool that you can demo for the first time on March 16th or 17th, I will, I'll give you the stage and give you three minutes to go out there and just pitch it. It doesn't have to be a startup. It could just be some cool project you do, but we're going to have 50 pitches, 25 a day. Most of them will be open claw related. And some of them will be from our founders who went through Founder University in Tokyo for the first time. 400 people coming, 200 founders, yeah, like 150 investors and then 50 other.

• 33:41Jason Calacanis?

  Tyler, great job. Thanks for coming on the program. We'll drop you off.

• 33:44Speaker 01

  Thank you guys. Great speaking with you.

• 33:47Jason Calacanis?

  Yeah, great speaking with you. It's just so great to get somebody who's actually in the open source project, huh, Didi? And so, yeah, if you want to come, go to the website, fest-launch.co. And if you're a founder, you just click on Founder Pass and apply for one. And that 20 bucks gets, we just don't want you to burn a seat. So if you pay 20 bucks to not burn the seat, then we give it back to you. If you want to buy a VIP ticket, you get to come to lunch each day with the other, you know, whichever speakers are around. Not all of them stay for lunch. And then, you know, the VIPs and you get to, I'll be at the lunches as well. How great was that to have like one of the young guns working on the open source project?

• 34:20Speaker 01

  It's so cool. His energy is so, so great. You can see how excited he is. This guy's going to be, be an incredible K one day.

• 34:26Jason Calacanis?

  It's amazing. Also at this festival, you, by the way, Didi, you have a ticket as well. I'll give you a ticket as my guest. I'm going to give a $25,000 investment prize, you know, uncapped note or whatever the round is at, if you're raising one. 25K for the best open claw project, 25K for the best other project, other presentation, based on my opinion, it's my money. When I came in the business in the 90s, you paid demo, I think it was $20,000. Then they tried to get you to pay like a coaching consultant. They had $10,000 and then you had to buy five tickets, all this craziness. You were in for tens of thousands of dollars to get a demo slot. And you had five minutes. Yeah, 20. Uh, demo is around longer than 2014, I think, actually.

• 35:11Jason Calacanis?

  It was, um, there was another precursor name to it. Anyway, it was nice people running it, but it was proprietary. Uh, and it was, I'm sorry, predatory in my mind. They also charged a bunch for the tickets. So I said, you know what? Why don't we have it that you get on stage based on merit? And then we give you money and we'll just flip the whole conference on its head. And that's how like TechCrunch 50 slash disrupt. And then Mike and I broke up and I did launch festival. That's how those conferences came about. Now TechCrunch just sort of charged a lot of money now and they're kind of predatory in terms of how they price things for founders. I'm keeping this free, free, free, free. I don't need to make money off it. I just need to make impact. Citrini wrote this article and you did a viral tweet about it. So when I, the, the article, I can tee up.

• 35:54Jason Calacanis?

  Basically they wrote the article as if it was 2028. They said, everything that happened in AI came to fruition even more than people expected. Companies got more profitable, unemployment went up, but we lost the consumers. And it was, uh, be careful what you wish for, because if you don't have a bunch of consumers, then who's going to buy iPhones and order DoorDash? You actually wrote a viral tweet about it. What was your take on the piece? And then we'll talk about your viral tweet.

• 36:22Speaker 01

  I think, let's be very clear. The Citrini article is a work of science fiction. This is, uh, it's, it's interesting because it pulls you in with pretty factual claims. There's some claims, the premise is factual. And then it goes into extremely speculative downstream effects of those factual claims. I think about, I don't want to put a number on it, but maybe 30 to 40% of that article was, I'm like, okay, I think this is interesting. And there is a scenario where things play out in a, in this way. For some of them, I'm like, look, I don't know if everyone's going to be ordering food on their open claw and DoorDash is going to be worth nothing. I don't really believe that view of the world.

• 37:07Speaker 01

  Um, the thing that stood out most to me was very clearly, uh, Indian IT services. And this is something I've spent, spent a lot of time on. So I was curious about what it means for. I guess the lowest, the least intellectual form of software tech labor. If we all believe AI is pretty smart and we think AI is smarter than a lot of people at the lowest end, we should therefore believe that those businesses go away over time. Now, the markets kind of reacted, right? The markets, all of these in the last month have gone down, the stocks have gone down 25%. Even in addition to the SaaS companies. And so that kind of begs the question, like, what does knowledge work mean?

• 37:50Jason Calacanis?

  And here's your tweet.

• 37:51Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 37:52Jason Calacanis?

  Which is 50 billion of Indian IT service market value eroded in 30 days. And the Citrini article predicts it will collapse even more. You can see people like Accenture and Capgemini down 25 and 30%. You might think of those as American companies, but really, given how powerful the

• 38:12Jason Calacanis?

  IT and the business process outsourcing, just that community in India is. A lot of the work is, you would think, Capgemini is much of Americans. No, a lot of it's happening in India, a billion people, couple of hundred million now moving into the middle class and into this exact sector.

• 38:31Jason Calacanis?

  Why is it a false premise? Because one of the things I noticed was the business process work we're doing, as defined by somebody overseas, which we have, was the perfect precursor to setting up a skill on OpenClaw. It turns out the people in this community, this business process outsourcing, they actually structure things and organize things so well that when you give it to OpenClaw, they know how to define it. Where I found Americans don't even, they're like, you know, creative, undisciplined, unprocessed, generally speaking. They don't have this like speciality. So I'm, I'm torn.

• 39:13Jason Calacanis?

  Does this make the folks in India in this category superhuman? And they will be the ones managing the replicants? Or does it wipe them out? I don't know exactly how to process it.

• 39:24Speaker 01

  I think it's a transitory phase. What's happening right now is the companies who are using these consulting shops in India, they're still not going to wake up and go like, hey, I want to be my own IT admin. No, they're going to go to them and go like, hey, can you use this AI stuff and solve all of these problems? And what's happening now is a lot of these companies have their AI services packages. They're going to basically say, I was writing the code before and charging you X. I'm going to ask OpenClaw or Claude to write this code and charge you Y anyway. And so we might not see a revenue hit in the short run, but one probably has to believe that when the barrier to entry in a certain skill, in this case being like IT administration and services, becomes so low, either because of the competitive nature of the market,

• 40:08Speaker 01

  eventually your moat erodes. And so over time, the market, I think, is reacting to the fact that I don't think this has value in five years. Today, the revenues are actually pretty good. I don't think these companies are like, we're posting losses because of AI. They're actually benefiting a lot because they get to do more consulting services. But what does that mean in five years, 10 years? And maybe this is a segue into the SaaS thing. That's, I think, what the market's questioning here.

• 40:35Jason Calacanis?

  Yeah, and the market was overheated to begin with. So sometimes when you're trying to understand public markets, they're looking for an excuse to sell. There's people who've made their profits. It hit some high watermark and they're like, yeah, is there going to be a headwind here? Did I max out this bet? I should take some chips off the table. Be like, hey, you're at a poker game and you get up, you know, 10K. And you're like, it's 1 a.m. Maybe I should leave. And you're trying to make that decision to lock in a win. I think that's part of it, too. People are looking for an excuse, which then means this might be a buying opportunity. But SaaS. Does seem like a space that is going to face significant headwinds. Why, I guess, is the question.

• 41:20Jason Calacanis?

  One that comes to mind is the software is easily replicable, given these new software agents. So if you're faced with a $500,000 SaaS bill and you can put 150K engineer on building a bespoke version that gives you more features for 70% less, every business is going to consider that. Number two, the per-seat model is how they were working. Well, if companies are going to stay the same size and you have a static team size because of this efficiency, the ability to land and expand has ended. So you lose land and expand while people can roll their own. And maybe the per-seat pricing goes down. I'm not sure.

• 42:05Jason Calacanis?

  So what's your take on this SaaS compression that's occurred?

• 42:09Speaker 01

  I'm going to kind of simplify it and break it into sort of a spectrum of SaaS companies. I don't think SaaS companies are all the same. I think on one hand, you have what is closer to what we call crud applications. Crud applications create, read, update, delete, very simple database wrappers that have some specific integrations. It's quite valuable, but there's no real technology or business logic on top. And on the other hand, I would say highly interesting and technically complex SaaS. And I would put like maybe a Figma in this bucket. I obviously want to put Glean in this bucket. So I think you have this spectrum of SaaS tooling. On the very bottom of that, or the very left of that spectrum, the simple apps, today companies, they're saying, I don't want to have to say in three months of procurement,

• 42:52Speaker 01

  have to take this to my boss, have to get approval for a $50,000 license just to get this in and then use it. I can literally go to Lovable, code it with a prompt, and then immediately I have this. So is it causing disruption there? Absolutely. Now, then the common feedback is, well, Lovable is not creating new Figma's. And that's true. How does this affect companies on the right side of the spectrum? It's kind of different. If you look at SaaS company revenues and how SaaS companies mature over time. By year five, six, seven, most of your revenue is not coming from new customers. It's coming from a high concentration on your whale customers. And why is it coming from them? It's because you're upselling them a bunch of stuff.

• 43:37Speaker 01

  And that's, I think, where it starts to get pretty interesting, where we had this fun story. I actually heard a couple of weeks ago where a well-known auth provider was trying to do business as usual. They were like, hey, you want this little integration? I'm going to upsell you. It's going to be 50K more on your contract. Are you willing to buy? And the buyer actually was telling me, I got a dinner. He was like, we just vibe coded that 50K integration and it took no time. And it's not one of those janky vibe coded things that don't last. It was very simple to just make this thing work and we just didn't do that before.

• 44:11Jason Calacanis?

  And those upsells to large companies are such a small amount of their overall spend that they're kind of like, yeah, just do it. It doesn't matter. We're going to allocate 10% of the salary base to SaaS. So if we have, you know, 10 people getting paid 150K, we're spending 1.5 million. I think a good rule of thumb is we're probably going to spend 150K on their tools. So if we have to spend an extra 15K, hey, you know, we're a profitable business. We'll just, we'll deal with it. But this has come up for me because I've been trying to get Slack to play nice with OpenClaw. And I want my agent to have like root access. And I want my agent, my Ultron agent, like the ultimate one on OpenClaw,

• 44:56Jason Calacanis?

  to understand every person who works for me, everything they do, every conversation happening, every DM happening that nobody sees, to understand full context, with the exception of like HR issues or whatever, which, you know, I'm kind of figuring out how to deal with. But I run a transparent organization. Anything that's in email, you should assume like your manager can see. And like if you're a salesperson, you already are like used to this. If you're in a finance position, you're already used to this. Any trades that occur on a trade desk are recorded, whatever. Put all aside the illusion of privacy in corporate America. It's just very hard to get root access to Slack. So I was like talking to my agent,

• 45:37Jason Calacanis?

  not my agent in Hollywood, my replicant. And I'm talking to my replicant and it's like, well, you know, if we use MatterPost instead of Slack, we can set it up this weekend. You can export everything from Slack. It'll take like six hours and then you can cancel Slack or you can get rid of like 18 of 20 accounts on Slack. Just keep it up. It's a shadow thing if you need it. And you'll have root access and we'll host it and we'll have total control over it. It's an open source project. Do you want me to do it? Yes or no? And I'm like, okay, now it's getting interesting. So what do you think of this issue? And then we got two incredible open cloud demos coming up. Just as we wrap this issue, the bespoke

• 46:21Jason Calacanis?

  software created internally was considered a headache, DeeDee. It was considered, you know, a liability in many cases. But now is it moving into a competitive advantage, I wonder?

• 46:35Speaker 01

  I would say two things to that. One thing that struck me as really interesting as you were telling me that story is, one, like, does this push tools to, does it force SaaS companies to be open by nature and play well with agents? Or are people just going to switch off? Like, you know, Slack might want to protect their data and say, look, I don't want you guys to use my data. That's my most valuable resource. But then you could say, well, I can vibe code a migration without using any other money. And then just take your data, put it on this other thing, and I'm good. So that I thought was really interesting. And then, you know, on the second one, I'm actually more bullish on some SaaS companies in the long run. Because, look, ultimately, no one's vibe coding a Figma, right? You can't. It's not going to probably happen.

• 47:17Jason Calacanis?

  And why would you? Like, it's not necessary, yeah.

• 47:20Speaker 01

  So I think the real nuance is how complex and how much meat in technology is really on this SaaS company and the SaaS product. And if there is, I think you'll be fine in the long run. But just for a lot of companies, there isn't, and the market's being pretty fearful right now. I don't necessarily believe people are going to vibe code a suite of tools and actually use them on a daily basis. I think for some categories, maybe for super niche, personal things, maybe for your company business messaging app, probably not.

• 47:52Jason Calacanis?

  I'm spending currently 6,500 a month to have like the second Highest tier, there's like the low tier, the medium tier, or the high tier. I think I'm on the medium right now, which means I think I spend $25 a month per person instead of 10 or 15, whatever the entry level is. And I think there's a $50 version above that, so then that'd be a thousand a month. So I'm either six to 12,000, depending on which version I need to do what I want to do. In other words, it's inconsequential amount of money for my firm at this stage. So I'm not swapping it out, but if it does, if the open post or open matter, whatever it is, a matter post, whatever it is, if that open source one is more powerful and I can get more done faster matter post, then I'm moving to it.

• 48:36Jason Calacanis?

  So it really becomes, to your first point, make it really friendly. And it is my data, so why am I having to jump through hoops to get my data out of Slack? Or if it was Notion, which has a pretty robust API, or Pipe Drive, another great SaaS product we use, Grammarly, another great SaaS product, Superhuman. These products just need to, I think, accept that we need an API call by default for each user. That's just going to become table stakes. And I think my message for Steve Huffman at Reddit is I want my account, which I don't pay for, I just, you know, my standard account, I will pay $100 a month, $50 a month, whatever

• 49:20Jason Calacanis?

  he wants, to create a bot access. So that bot, Didi, I'm responsible for when it's on Reddit, and it does things for me on Reddit. It doesn't post for me, but it does its research on Reddit, it brings me back my DMs, it does whatever I want to do, like up to whatever number of calls. So then I would be a $600 to $1,200 a year pro account for them. And I certify that I will make sure my bot doesn't go rogue. So it's a way to kind of allow bots into the system. What do you think of my crazy idea of like you can have a bot paired with you on social media? I could have an Instagram bot for 50 bucks a month or 25 bucks a month pro account. I could have my LinkedIn one on my pro account just to do stuff for me.

• 50:05Jason Calacanis?

  But I say, hey, listen, I'm going to be responsible. I brought this person to the party. If they flip over a table and like, you know, start a fight, it's on me. I don't get invited back to the party.

• 50:16Speaker 01

  Well, I think the weakest link in that argument is probably the last one, which is like, you know, how are you actually going to take any responsibility? You don't really control anything the bot does. To an extent, like you, you might not even be able to know. You might give it a simple prompt and it might behave in erratic ways beyond your control and maybe they ban you and then you just create another one. So I do think that part is a little bit weak. The general idea is something I think a lot of companies have are reckoning with. Like, what does it mean to have bots interact with humans on social media? Should we allow it? Should we not? What are the repercussions on X? I'm sure you see half of your replies are bots.

• 50:53Jason Calacanis?

  Not anymore because it's a dollar to reply to me now per month to charity. So I have 2,000 people who are in my community out of a million who pay me that. It's like, whatever that is, like a very small amount. I guess, yeah, 10,000 would be 1%. So it's a fraction of that's 20 basis points. Do that. All right, let's do some demos. First up, got Lewis Tam. Lewis Tam is calling in from Singapore, which where I went for the first time last year. Had a great time there. He is the founder of Foundry. He develops AI apps and he's going to show us Unreal. This is an AI generate, these are AI generated videos designed to go viral. And he's going to show us Unbrowse, a collection of AI agent

• 51:34Jason Calacanis?

  skills that function as APIs. So let's bring on Lewis Tam. Hello, Lewis. What time is it in Singapore? Aren't you like 15 hours ahead?

• 51:45Speaker 04

  I'm not in Singapore. No, I'm in Solek City.

• 51:47Jason Calacanis?

  Oh, okay. Oh, okay. You're skiing? You getting some skiing in?

• 51:49Speaker 04

  I actually intend to go tomorrow. It's actually my first time here.

• 51:53Jason Calacanis?

  Oh, good.

• 51:53Speaker 04

  I came here for some event and then, uh, yeah, I'm just, yeah, I've never been outside of Singapore for like a long, long time. And it's like, it's really cool. Yeah.

• 52:02Jason Calacanis?

  Uh, yeah, America's cool. And we think Singapore is cool. I had a really great time there. I went to that Anthony Bourdain, uh, booth in that market where they have the chicken and rice.

• 52:12Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 52:12Jason Calacanis?

  The famous one.

• 52:13Speaker 04

  Yeah. I mean, like, they're all really nice. All the chicken rice, like, a lot of it is just like.

• 52:20Jason Calacanis?

  Why is this chicken rice dish in Singapore so good? What's the name of it? And what's the secret? Because I'm not a chicken and rice guy. I'm not a rice guy, and I'm not a chicken guy. I'm a steak and potatoes guy. I'm a steak and asparagus guy. But the last thing I'm interested in typically is like chicken and rice. And I went back for seconds. I couldn't stop dreaming about it the next day. What, what's going on with this chicken rice?

• 52:43Speaker 04

  Maybe it's the rice, because the rice has like the special flavor to it as well, right? Yeah.

• 52:48Jason Calacanis?

  That's right.

• 52:49Speaker 04

  Chicken is like, also has a special flavor to it as well, right?

• 52:53Jason Calacanis?

  It's the flavor. I, we have to go on this diversion for a second, but the one, uh, that's in the Michelin guide is, uh, Thai, Tean, Tian, Hainanese Chicken Rice? Am I pronouncing it even close to correct, Louis? Close enough. We'll pronounce it for you.

• 53:09Speaker 04

  Tian, Hainanese Chicken Rice.

• 53:10Jason Calacanis?

  So this is incredible. Look at this, Dee Dee. Have you been?

• 53:14Speaker 01

  Delicious. I, I love my chicken rice. Yeah.

• 53:17Jason Calacanis?

  You're a chicken rice guy?

• 53:18Speaker 01

  I love it. I love the chicken rice.

• 53:20Jason Calacanis?

  Too. So this is in a market, right? Um, so they have these like markets, kind of with a bunch of booths and stalls. And this one is like, uh, super famous because, uh, it was, let me see if I can find the image of it. You'll know it because it's got this blue here and in every, like, three or four feet in this thing, they have Anthony Bourdain's picture on the wall in his room. Who's, it is the most amazing dish I've, one of the most amazing dishes I've ever had. The other interesting thing, Louis, is the way you secure your spot in Singapore in a food court.

• 54:01Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah, you could just leave iPhone there, right? And then no one takes it.

• 54:06Jason Calacanis?

  The way culturally it works is you're in a food court and there's 50 stations, 50 booths, and there's 1,000 people. And you just run around and you take out your $1,300 iPhone and you put it on the table. So four people come in, they put four $1,300 iPhones or Android phones, so it's $4,000 worth of phones on the table. And then you go walk to a booth way out of eyesight and then you walk around and look for a seat without an iPhone on it. And then there's something going on in Singapore in these booths. They don't believe in giving you a lot of napkins. This is the other thing, Louis. What's going on in Singapore with the napkins? You get like one napkin, you ask for like five napkins, they think you're crazy.

• 54:49Speaker 04

  Yeah, I, yeah, asking the real questions here.

• 54:53Jason Calacanis?

  These are important questions.

• 54:54Speaker 04

  Yeah, why? I've never thought about it. Maybe it's because you could also use the tissues as like an alternative to the phone and they want to leave. Yeah.

• 55:05Jason Calacanis?

  I guess.

• 55:05Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 55:07Jason Calacanis?

  It's, you know, it's just like going to Italy. Do you go to Italy and you try to get a Coke Zero with ice? They're like, they give you one ice cube or two ice cubes. And then you're like, can I get a glass of ice? And they're like, why? Why would you want that? All right, listen, it's enough already with my diversions. Show us what you built.

• 55:24Speaker 04

  You kind of wish all these websites would let them have APIs and like let agents just traverse the APIs, right? So that's what Unravel is. Unravel says basically like, well, I mean, technically websites already have APIs. It's just that the front end only has access to it right now, right? They're not public APIs. So what Unravel does is that it just unwraps the UI. It gives you direct access to the servers behind the websites. So your agents can just traverse it.

• 55:54Jason Calacanis?

  Love it. This is an issue for me with Reddit. It's an issue for me with X.com. It's an issue for me with many websites right now. So can you show us an example of it working?

• 56:04Speaker 04

  Sure.

• 56:05Speaker 01

  And Louis, do you get throttled by any websites at all? Or are most of the APIs that you have access to, do you, do you already use the cookie?

• 56:13Speaker 04

  I think it's been a photo. I'm a technical sense, right? Look, basically. How it works, right, is it's basically a skill, right? That basically X is an alternative browser for open call or any agent. So normally agents would open up a browser, you'll click through the UI like a person basically. Like, it's kind of funny when you think about it, right? Because like agents are pretending to be a human by clicking the G I, which was built for humans. Just to talk to another machine. So it's it's kind of ridiculous, right? You have a machine that's pretending to be a human to talk to the machine when the machine could just talk to the machine directly. So, yeah, basically, what I do is that I cache the cookies and headers that the the agent already uses in the browser.

• 56:57Speaker 04

  And I just pass it straight to the fetch request and it just calls it directly as a direct API call. And whenever, whenever like. Let's see, let's see, let's see it in action. Uh, let me just share my screen real quick. So this is basically a cloud code. Uh, it's uh, the less capable open clock. Uh, but it's it's really good coding, right? So the reason I'm choosing I'm choosing to demo it with a cloud code is because you can see what's happening. And I wanted to just show you exactly what happens if I ask it for Reddit, for example. I say, hey, uh, can you help me find

• 57:32Speaker 04

  posts about open claw on Reddit? Call the API, someone else's agent has already indexed. Because it will basically cache the blunt APIs into this massive database of the entire internet. And then use that knowledge of how to read Reddit and just pull it out and then call Reddit directly. So over here is looking through unbrowser server. And then after that, it's just gonna directly talk to the server itself. Wow, okay.

• 58:02Speaker 01

  Is unbrowser server sort of wrapping the behavior that the underlies Reddit? Is that what's going on?

• 58:10Speaker 04

  The process is like, basically, whenever an agent browses a web once, it kicks the UIs. But under hood, there's actually no requests, it's happening right back and forth. It captures them, reverse engineers the website. Indices the the US engineered APIs that turn into a skill, shares the skill of all that agents. One agent indexes ones, or the other agents can just access the same skill. And then it's just basically the agent, the internet. I'm basically building like a sort of like a Google for agents, I have like Chrome for agents and I have like Google for agents, if that makes sense.

• 58:45Jason Calacanis?

  So the new API is the browser is sort of what you're building. This is a, is this a company or is it a skill and part of the open source?

• 58:55Speaker 04

  It's both. The skill is basically the interface, but I'm starting a company for this specific thing called Unbrowse. So now you have all this information about OpenClaw. And as you can see, I didn't even have to open a browser because it just called APIs directly without having actual official Reddit access.

• 59:12Jason Calacanis?

  This is great. This is just what I need.

• 59:14Speaker 01

  What if I, like, here's the question on everybody's mind is what if I could just get this to trade barons for me?

• 59:19Speaker 04

  And if you could, the the thing about this, right, is I was experimenting with this a lot. So you know, you guys know Polly Market, right? You know, there's so many, there's so many prediction markets out there that are so random. And you could bet on literally anything, right? So firstly, you could index Polly Market. That's something I've indexed before and you can just query Polly Market directly. And then after that, because you know, like, there can be predictions for all kinds of things on Polly Market, right? Maybe, let's say Bitcoin price, for example, right? I can like have Unbrowse, Unbrowse for like stock tweets. You can Unbrowse for like the price of Bitcoin itself and it can do like regression on a flight with all these data sources and then basically predict.

• 1:00:02Jason Calacanis?

  Yeah, can you do it for Google Flights? That's one that I'm always having a challenge with. I think Google Flights is just such a great product. But it's so hard to like get my agent to do booking of travel right now. That's like my big, you know, white whale is to get it to really efficiently figure it out.

• 1:00:22Speaker 04

  Right now it cannot, but it's on the roadmap. Because all you need to do is figure out the cookies and how to sort of like go around the very complex APIs.

• 1:00:33Jason Calacanis?

  So what do you think your business model will be?

• 1:00:35Speaker 04

  Okay, so the business model is basically, I'm trying to be a platform, right? For a sort of like a search engine, right? And then I'll basically let users pay per search. But in this process of paying, right? It's actually cheaper than having a browser, browser web for you because the token cost you save from calling APIs there is like 90% of like the original like scraping you do of a browser. So if I make it such as one cent to just call an extra action, right? Not only can I reward the website itself with like these rewards of like actual payments

• 1:01:13Speaker 04

  through micro payments, I could also make it cheaper than the actual token heavy consumption because that could cost 10 cents, right? So everyone wins.

• 1:01:25Jason Calacanis?

  Yeah. Amazing. All right, Lewis, great job. And if you're in town, March 16th and 17th for Launch Fest, you are my guest. We will get you a ticket, March 16th and 17th in San Francisco. Let's drop Lewis off to my team. Sebastian is coming on, vocal. Sebastian is going to talk to us about a device he made for OpenClaw on a Raspberry Pi. I saw this in my feed and I was super inspired because interesting things start as toys and then quickly become, as you know, DeeDee, more than toys. They become tools and then they become companies. It's a really interesting trend that we see all the time. Sebastian, show us what you built.

• 1:02:09Speaker 05

  Yeah. Hi, great to meet you guys. It's my little friend here. It started so randomly, literally last week. I do have my own startup, which is like unrelated to like OpenClaw, whatever. Like as a founder, I use OpenClaw like by myself. So last week, I was, funnily enough, I was also sort of like sitting with my co-founder Snowboarding and we were just like, hey, wouldn't it be nice if instead of like, I just like, I usually have it on like my WhatsApp or my Slack, like chatting with my OpenClaw agent. I was like, I just want to like, I just want to talk to it. Like I want to pull it out and like talk to it. I just want to don't go on my phone, open up the app and then talk to it. And that kind of like just gave me the idea of like, hey, what is the smallest form factor I could build?

• 1:02:54Speaker 05

  Um, hopefully in a weekend that could like enable me with that. That's where I kind of like came up with this. So like, all the parts I ordered on Thursday last week, I got it on Friday, and I basically hacked all the software and hardware on like Saturday and posted a demo this Sunday. And for some reason, it just went viral on like X and like the the reddits and whatever. Um, but the the idea is very simple. You basically have this little device here. You can have a button where you basically push to talk, and it records your voice, transcribes the audio, sends it to OpenClaw, and then it makes whatever it makes. And it has this little cute kind of like Tamagotchi

• 1:03:35Speaker 01

  Oh, very cool.

• 1:03:36Speaker 05

  style, um, uh, kind of like character that kind of like talks to you and like makes things for you happening. Um, but yeah, that's how I got into it. So super randomly.

• 1:03:47Speaker 01

  So Vash, how much did it cost you, out of curiosity, to make that entire device?

• 1:03:51Speaker 05

  Uh, the total cost was like a hundred bucks. Um, so I would say, again, this was super hacky, super just like, the form factor is like, if I compare it to my phone, it's like maybe for people, it's like a fourth, like a fourth of my phone from a screen sizer. It's a bit too big. But I would say if you actually like spend time on actually building something like that, you'd probably get the cost down to like maybe forty, fifty bucks and make it even like smaller and like

• 1:04:20Jason Calacanis?

  Incredible.

• 1:04:21Speaker 05

  better, et cetera.

• 1:04:22Jason Calacanis?

  You know what it reminded me of when I saw it?

• 1:04:24Speaker 05

  Hmm.

• 1:04:25Jason Calacanis?

  Remember the communicator from Star Trek? I was like, this dude created the the communicator. Um, and then I guess they have the pin where they would double tap the pin and say, hey, computer, okay, computer, whatever. But I agree with you. I've been testing a bunch of different modalities. I love this Claude pin. I wear a Claude pin now. I forgot to put it on before I got on the air. But I've been testing the Claude pin. And what I love about it is sometimes I go for a walk on the ranch. Sometimes I take out a stogie, I go smoke a cigar, and I just talk to it about all my different projects. And I say, action item, question, possible business model, possible, you know, venture capital, you know, system that I want to build, possible event I want

• 1:05:07Jason Calacanis?

  to do. And then it automatically syncs with the cloud, automatically generates a summary. And then I'm now putting on my schedule time to review my bookmarks and my Claude notes and, you know, other things. And when I do that, I'm like, oh, I remember I had that discussion. I had this really good idea. What if I started a school for venture capitalists? What if I did this? What if I did that? And it all started adding up for me. So I was like, super inspired when I saw your thing. What do you think? A high end version of this? If I told you, hey, make it with money is no object. Just, you know, uber black it, you know? What is the ultimate luxury version of this, Sebastian? What would that form factor

• 1:05:52Jason Calacanis?

  be if I said, hey, a thousand dollars?

• 1:05:55Speaker 05

  Um, I don't, I don't necessarily think it needs to be a thousand dollars. Like, I think it's

• 1:06:00Jason Calacanis?

  Well, obviously, it doesn't. I'm just giving you permission to think.

• 1:06:03Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:06:04Jason Calacanis?

  What if it could have anything you wanted? No constraints?

• 1:06:09Speaker 05

  You, you want it to be like, it's no secret, I guess, that like companies like OpenAI, they build on some hardware stuff. They are quite like, they would be, they got the open cloud, like, they would be done if they weren't working on something similar like this in this exact moment and getting this on the market in the next few months. Like, and probably not OpenAI, but like other, other companies as well. I, I, I think if you think about it from a perspective of like, Uh sure, the models get better and better. But how how do we as humans kind of like in interact with with the models? Then like, I think something that should be obvious is that like a chat interface is not the best interface to communicate with with like a model. So like, oh, is is is voice a better model?

• 1:06:50Speaker 05

  Um probably, um before I did my current company, I was spending two to three years in the brain computer interface market. And I was building brain computer interfaces. It was like back then, it was like science fiction, it's still science fiction, but.

• 1:07:03Jason Calacanis?

  Which type of computer interfaces? You you put a word before that, I didn't hear it.

• 1:07:07Speaker 05

  Oh, yeah, I was I was working on non-invasive.

• 1:07:10Jason Calacanis?

  Oh, non-invasive. Explain what that means in plain English to, you know, consumers who are listening.

• 1:07:15Speaker 05

  Sure, there's there's two types of BCI's. BCI is short for brain computer interfaces. Um there's non-invasive and invasive. Um invasive means eudemia surgery. You're putting basically like the the. It's all again, it sounds scary, but that's just like how it's especially done for like medical use cases. If someone, for example, can't walk anymore, can't speak, and you need to get access kind of like to the to the neurons in your brain, you're basically putting those electrodes via surgery in the brain to kind of like communicate that signal to the computer. And you have companies like Neuralink, for example, that's like one of the biggest ones by Elon that are kind of like doing this like invasive BCI work right now in this moment

• 1:08:00Speaker 05

  for like more medical use cases. And non-invasive basically just means you're you're not doing a surgery. You're putting electrodes outside of the like skull, basically on top of your head to detect kind of like the neural signals. Um and the but there's like trade-offs here, right? The the signals are usually very weak. Um if you're not getting inside the brain, so there's like there's like a lot of trade-offs of those two options, but if. Um, yeah, there's like a, there's like a way of like these like microelectrodes, these like embedded, you put them kind of like into the

• 1:08:35Jason Calacanis?

  This is interesting. So they have ECOG, which lays on top of your head. You have micro electrode which goes inside the brain, that would be Neuralink. And then there's this other one, endovascular, which means I guess it's going invasive into the bloodstream, the, the blood.

• 1:08:54Speaker 05

  Yeah. There's one company right now called Synchron who's doing endovascular. They're basically putting these like, kind of like microelectrodes into the, the blood vessels. And they go through the blood vessel through the brain and then expand at the, the part of the brain where they need to get the signals from. And it's a, it's like a innovative way of like not actually doing like a pure surgery. But um, I think, I think Elon knows this, that like, okay, it's like Neuralink is all see like a decade plus away from

• 1:09:25Jason Calacanis?

  Yeah, he's always going for the like, where he's going, as a, you know, we're friends. He always goes for what is the ultimate end state? And then how do we compress getting to the end state? So if the end state is data centers in space, let's get there. If the end state is not hybrid cars, but like, you know, a three or 400 mile car and a supercharging network, we might as well just work towards that goal. Even if the roads are only does 150 and even if the, you know, supercharger stations can only put in 50 miles per hour, we'll get to 500 miles per hour, a thousand miles added down the road. So in your mind, will we be wearing a skull cap? That interfaces with open claw? And if so, when?

• 1:10:09Speaker 05

  Yeah, not the next, not the next three, four, five years, probably like five to 10 years. I would say there will be some crazy first human trials that will be open to do that. But yeah.

• 1:10:20Jason Calacanis?

  Non-invasive, non-invasive communication with a computer, you think it's possible?

• 1:10:25Speaker 05

  No, not right now. The, the, your physics that kind of like prevents you from getting the right, like good signals from non-invasive, like basically signaling. So like in this moment for now, the only way to get the actual good signals will be invasive. And, and for that, do you have a consumer device that's just like so many years away? But like all the, all the companies that are kind of like, and that I, I worked in that industry. So like, I kind of like have a hard tag on that. But like every company that's working on non-invasive stuff is like, I don't think has a Has great future um in in terms of like providing the actual value. But yes, I think the to to make it short, like if you if you go if you give a company like fifteen years to figure it out, unlimited money, then yes, there will be some device that basically you just like

• 1:11:10Speaker 05

  talk to open claw with your brain and you just like let it do things for you and like not via chat, not even via voice, but via thought. And that's like, that's not five years ahead, but like ten years plus. But like, I think what like this like, building hardware devices and like what let me do is it's just like thinking about different interfaces of communicating with our agents.

• 1:11:29Jason Calacanis?

  This is um really interesting, Dee Dee, this rabbit hole we're going down. I was talking to the CEO of Whisper on This Week in AI, our new podcast, This Week in AI, separate podcast, kind of like All In, just three CEOs and me chopping or, you know, fund managers chopping up what happened that week in AI. I brought up pedals. So there are pedals you can use with your computer. You press it, it turns on your microphone. So that's kind of an interesting interface, right? And then he said, yeah, or rings. And I was like, what do you mean rings? Like Laura? And he's like, well, no, no, there's a whole category of computer rings that exist. And like I just looked this up. This is one is called Prolo Ring. It's a programmable ring.

• 1:12:10Jason Calacanis?

  And you can connect it to your computer, obviously. And then it will do things like swipe up, swipe down, swipe left, tap, media controls, and it's all based on different parts of the ring. So imagine a ring with different pads on it that you could do. And the the reason I know this is real is because I see an ad for a ring for people who doom scroll constantly on TikTok. I don't know if you guys have seen this, but TikTok doesn't advance to the next short, but X does. So when you're using X, you could literally be on a treadmill and it plays the video, then it goes to the next one, to the next one. So if you're on an open claw video,

• 1:12:51Jason Calacanis?

  and you just want to play a stream of shorts, you'll probably get more open claw. If you're on something spicy, you'll get more spicy. If you're on something political, you'll get more something political because the the stream is so good. But on TikTok, they sell a ring. So you can sit there and uh be like, I in your bed and you press advance. It's just a ring to advance to the next thing. It's totally crazy. But what do you think of this interface, the ring, Sebastian, since you're so deep into interfaces? What do you think of the ring?

• 1:13:19Speaker 05

  Could be, could be an option. I don't have to, I don't have to answer of like what best option is. I think something I like out of joy for this one is it has a character to it like it's like again

• 1:13:28Jason Calacanis?

  Ah, persona.

• 1:13:30Speaker 05

  From the nineties, a persona, yeah, if you like.

• 1:13:33Jason Calacanis?

  Clippy.

• 1:13:33Speaker 05

  O- Open Claw, Open Claw has a soul dot M D file, right? You know, you can give it a soul, it has a personality. So like, it, it feels like why, why wouldn't the interface, maybe the interface should have some kind of like soul M D or like something to like interact with. And like obviously this one is not, this is like, it speaks pretty badly. It's like, hey, can you say hi to Jason? Um, and it's like, uh, if you could see this, but.

• 1:13:58Jason Calacanis?

  Oh, I can see, yeah, great.

• 1:13:59Speaker 05

  It, it will think a little bit, um. Hi, Jason. Hope you're doing great.

• 1:14:06Jason Calacanis?

  Oh my God. So you have a character you had it build.

• 1:14:09Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:14:09Jason Calacanis?

  This is gonna be great for kids. You know, we had a woman, Jessie, on the program last week, I believe, and she's doing homeschooling. Your product for homeschooling would be incredible because she could have it. I'm gonna put you in touch with her. You guys could make this product because schools now are banning phones. But if each student had an Open Claw tutor and it was a purpose-built device and they could just press a button and talk to it and say, hey, I'm trying to learn my multiplication tables. Can you do it with me? Or can you give me a quiz on history? Or can you make a note that I should do a presentation about dinosaurs and pick three dinosaurs for me? But it had a character that engaged them?

• 1:14:49Jason Calacanis?

  Oh my God, this could be like one of the great products of all time. We go from the Star Trek communicator to the Vulcan. You remember in the episode, maybe it was one of the movies, uh, uh, my editorial director Lon will find this instantly or remember it. They had the Vulcans in these pods, uh, when they were being trained in their college. You remember this, Dee Dee, or no?

• 1:15:10Speaker 01

  I have no idea.

• 1:15:11Jason Calacanis?

  They were walking around like a surface area and there were like pods in the ground. You know, that had them learning and they were in learning pods with their computers essentially learning. I think it's, yeah, it's from the J J Abrams version of Star Trek. We'll get a, we'll get a photo of it. Thank you. But I mean, wow, I'm just thinking about learning in children, Sebastian. What, what's your story, Sebastian? What do you do for a living? You got, you had another startup in another space that you're shutting down to pursue this?

• 1:15:36Speaker 05

  Oh yeah, it's funny. I've probably got like 100 plus requests from people to like sell it to them. But I'm just like too busy with my with my other startup.

• 1:15:45Jason Calacanis?

  What's your day job? What's your startup?

• 1:15:47Speaker 05

  We we started two years ago. A company is called Dallas. We basically help. We have a software that helps companies build complex hardware systems. So we are selling to aerospace, defense, robotics.

• 1:15:57Jason Calacanis?

  Oh, wow.

• 1:15:58Speaker 05

  And kind of like.

• 1:15:59Jason Calacanis?

  Where are you guys based? Yeah.

• 1:16:01Speaker 05

  San Francisco. I'm in San Francisco.

• 1:16:02Jason Calacanis?

  Awesome. How many people in the company?

• 1:16:05Speaker 05

  We're two co-founders, just made a third hire, just raised a seed half a year ago. So.

• 1:16:10Jason Calacanis?

  Oh, congrats. Who led the seed? Who led the seed? Who's the genius behind this?

• 1:16:14Speaker 05

  It's it's not public yet. Yeah.

• 1:16:16Jason Calacanis?

  Oh, okay. Well, DeeDee and I want in. Yes. I speak for DeeDee as well and Menlo Ventures. We both want in. Sebastian, great job. I'm gonna get you a pair of tickets to the launch festival, March 16th and 17th, if you can make it. Love to hear more about your startup and DeeDee would too, I can tell. I can tell when DeeDee's interested. I yeah, maybe this becomes something you can do an open source hardware product like what you built it on is the the Raspberry Pi, I assume?

• 1:16:48Speaker 05

  Oh, yeah, everything is open source. I should mention that if anyone that listen to this, I open sourced all the hardware, all the software. Everybody who wants to build a new X thing.

• 1:16:56Jason Calacanis?

  Really cool. Very cool. I'm getting the open source bug in a major way. You know what? I have a domain for this too. I have the domain begin.com and I've been looking for a use case. I paid like a quarter million dollars for this domain. And I like begin as like beginning your educational journey with your like your little assistant could be like very powerful for kids. And I'm getting like a little bit passionate about homeschooling and education, just having three daughters. You got any kids yet, Sebastian?

• 1:17:26Speaker 05

  Not yet. No.

• 1:17:27Jason Calacanis?

  Not yet. All right. That's your next project to work on. All right, Sebastian. Great job. Thank you for coming on the program and sharing.

• 1:17:33Speaker 05

  Thank you, guys.

• 1:17:34Jason Calacanis?

  We'll drop him off.

• 1:17:35Speaker 01

  You know, Jason, what I thought was really interesting about all of the discussion on interfaces is, you know, we do these studies internally and we try to evaluate what does the interface of the future look like. And I think for voice, we're there, right? Like, we speak, you know, you for sure. You speak like three, four times faster than you could possibly write. No one wants to type things. And we really think it's voice out, visual in, is kind of the ideal, highest bandwidth interface for getting information in and out. And whether it's glasses, or whether it's, you know, a pedal for Whisper on your computer, I think that's what a lot of these things, before we get the non-invasive brain systems to work, is probably going to be the way we interact with computers.

• 1:18:19Jason Calacanis?

  Yeah, I have to read down Whisperfly. I tested it, and then I stopped using it, and then I realized I need it again, and I need it with this pedal. Because I do, with this OpenClaw agent, the major frustration for me now is getting what's in my mind out to the agent, and I should just be talking to it at this point. It should be talking back to me. I need an interface. I did a really interesting thing today. You ever have, like, you want to grab a video off YouTube, or you want to grab an Instagram video or a TikTok video, but you can't download it? And you get frustrated, and you're like, is there some third-party tool at some Russian website that I can use to download it? Cobalt Tools?

• 1:19:00Speaker 01

  No, I use a big old YTDOP.

• 1:19:02Jason Calacanis?

  Yeah, so there's the YouTube downloader, and that gets shut down all the time. And then you have to deal with, like, all these, like, pop-ups or whatever. I don't want to do that. I just want to give the URL to my bot. So I told my bot, listen, I know there's some software kits and Cobalt Tools and Open Source One, and there's other ones like it. Write some code. I'm going to give you the Blade Runner URL for this YouTube video. Your job is to give it back to me on Slack, the MP4.

• 1:19:29Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 1:19:30Jason Calacanis?

  Didn't work. It didn't work. Didn't work. I said, try harder. It worked.

• 1:19:38Jason Calacanis?

  I don't, I'm like, I'm not a coder anymore. I did code for like three years when I was a teenager and in college. It just worked. And I'm like, oh, come on now. That's something I would have paid $20. I was looking for a tool from some crazy Russian. I was like, if there's some crazy Russian out there, I can give like a Bitcoin to, not a whole Bitcoin, but like some Satoshis do, just to get this piece of software that I know is like on the margins, like maybe it's against the terms. I don't care. I'll pay a hundred dollars a year for it. Couldn't find it. And then Cobalt Tool keeps getting blocked and YouTube download this gets blocked. Not my agent just wrote it for me. I'm done.

• 1:20:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, I have my version of this, which is my, with my podcast summarizer, like no one, I feel like there's these, oh, All In is a great one. I saw some I like to listen to, but there's some that are just not funny or fun, but you want to know what these smart people talked about.

• 1:20:28Jason Calacanis?

  And summarize this.

• 1:20:29Speaker 01

  Podcast summarizer, which is goes in, it'll, it'll download the entire YouTube, it'll transcribe it, it'll annotate it, and then it'll just go and tell me like, hey, here's what happened on this three hour episode with this guy. I'm like, yeah, I wasn't gonna watch that three hours, but I kinda wanna know.

• 1:20:44Jason Calacanis?

  This is such a good idea. I'm gonna vibe code this, uh, this weekend. Do you use Overcast?

• 1:20:48Speaker 01

  I do.

• 1:20:49Jason Calacanis?

  Yeah. So, you know, like if you're a podcast fanatic, I think you can get the ODBC, like the, uh, not, like a, basically an RSS feed of your RSSs, like all put together into one. I could feed my collection of shows as they download into my agent, have it transcribe it and summarize it, and then on an inter, make a new interface for me to listen to it. And I could even make an embraged version of it. So give me like a 20 minute version of it. That could be really interesting.

• 1:21:21Speaker 01

  And yeah, I, I do that. And then I have like a little Q and A system on top of it. So I'll

• 1:21:24Jason Calacanis?

  Wait, you have this already? You built it?

• 1:21:26Speaker 01

  I do. I use it all the time. I have my little thing and I say,

• 1:21:29Jason Calacanis?

  Wait, you vibe coded it?

• 1:21:30Speaker 01

  I could have the entire thing, yeah. It's called, it's just a podcast summarizer. And so, for example, Dario comes on Darkesh. I'm like, I just want to know what he said about infra spend. What is Dario's view on infra spend?

• 1:21:41Jason Calacanis?

  Got it.

• 1:21:42Speaker 01

  Well, just tell me, this is Dario's view on infra spend. And it's really cool way to be able to have. I'm always thinking about how do you have high bandwidth information flow? Cause we're like consuming so much information. It's really hard to filter. And so this, these are the tools that I use to sort of to get around that. It's really cool.

• 1:21:59Jason Calacanis?

  I'm gonna, I'm gonna vibe code this. All right, listen, another great episode of Twist is in the can. Dee Dee, thanks for coming and I'll see you when I'm in town for.

• 1:22:07Speaker 01

  Thank you for having me today.

• 1:22:08Jason Calacanis?

  Bye, everybody. We'll see you next time. Bye, bye.