Kill Your Startup's Knowledge Chaos with OpenClaw (with Oliver Henry and Jeff Weisbein) | E2254

This Week In Startups is made possible by:Caldera Lab - [calderalab.com/twist](https://calderalab.com/twist)Iru - [iru.com](http://Iru.com/twist)LinkedIn Jobs - http://linkedin.com/twist*OpenClaw is incredible at automating tasks. But what if it could also fix your startup's internal communication problems? Give agents shared memory, and you may be able to break down information silos while ensuring that teammates have the same context.@oliverhenry and @jeffweisbein demo what they've actually built with OpenClaw, including marketing automations, agentic loops, and bug fixing tools. Then we dig into what agentic infrastructure means for how startups operate, and why traditional SaaS products need to quickly adapt for the agentic era. Oliver Henry: The creator of the '[Larry](https://clawhub.ai/OllieWazza/larry)' OpenClaw skill, and founder of [Larrybrain](https://www.larrybrain.com/)Jeff Weisbein: The Claw-pilled founder of [WizardRFP](https://www.wizardrfp.com/) and [WhoCoversIt](https://www.whocoversit.com/), who shared his OpenClaw framework [publicly](https://weisbe.in/openclaw) and built a [getting-started guide for the tool](https://github.com/jeffweisbein/openclaw-starter-kit)**Timestamps:** 00:00 Intro (00:01:43) Here's why you never ski alone in a blizzard! (00:04:22) Why everyone at LAUNCH is going to get their own Mac Mini and AI agent (00:08:06) "OpenClaw has changed my entire solo-preneur lifestyle." — Jeff Weinstein of Hype Lab (00:09:06) Jason's urgent API message to Steve Huffman of Reddit (00:10:20) LinkedIn Jobs - Hire right, the first time. Post your first job and get $100 off towards your job post at [LinkedIn.com/twist](http://linkedin.com/HiringProOffer). (00:15:12) Oliver shows us his Larry Skill to make viral TikTok content with zero human intervention (00:20:10) Iru unifies identity, endpoint security, and compliance into one platform. Book a demo at [www.iru.com/twist](www.iru.com/twist). (00:21:22) Why are platforms like TikTok still so hostile toward bots? (00:24:45) The shift from asking a chatbot how to do things, to just telling an agent to do things (00:26:05) How Oliver is training Larry to get better at its job (00:30:09) Whether you're starting fresh or upgrading your routine, Caldera Lab makes skincare simple and effective. Head to [CalderaLab.com/TWIST](http://calderalab.com/TWIST) and use TWIST at checkout for 20% off your first order. (00:32:47) Why making your agent more PROACTIVE is more important than automating everything (00:37:14) Why pull requests… just aren't really a thing any more. (00:39:40) How Jason is using his new AI assistant, "Roy," to keep track of everything going on at his company (00:53:00) Is the SaaS crash actually rational after all? (00:51:48) Using AI to create "pools of excellence" (00:54:03) The more you integrate software into AI, the less valuable the software becomes (00:56:56) Why "Agentify Your SaaS" may become the rallying cry (00:58:31) How has the age verification scandal impacted Discord's IPO plans? (01:03:10) When you want to build your own skill vs. downloading someone else's (01:03:53) How Larrybrain finds helpful skills and helps creators monetize (01:08:32) When we will get true experts making verifiably top skills? (01:11:40) Jason's SCARY but also AWESOME new OpenClaw CEO tools (01:18:35) Why a lot of MBAs should probably have PhD's Thank you to our partners:(30:09) Caldera Lab - Whether you're starting fresh or upgrading your routine, Caldera Lab makes skincare simple and effective. Head to [CalderaLab.com/TWIST](http://calderalab.com/TWIST) and use TWIST at checkout for 20% off your first order.(20:10) Iru - Iru unifies identity, endpoint security, and compliance into one platform. Book a demo at [iru.com](http://iru.com/).(10:20) LinkedIn Jobs - *Hire right, the first time. Post your first job and get $100 off towards your job post at* [LinkedIn.com/twist](http://linkedin.com/HiringProOffer)

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jason Calacanis?

  The manifestation that I'm seeing right now is unlike anything I've seen in my career. I think we'll be able to automate 10% of our work a week, doubling our efficiency. If I want to know if a contract's been signed or not, Ultron knows. If I want to know if we've talked to a client and when we last talked to them, it knows everything. It's the oracle, it's the Ultron. The whole communication friction and the processing of it and the understanding of what the organization's doing is going to just instantly be removed. There is nothing in Asilo. Scary and every CEO's dream.

• 0:39Speaker 01

  This week in startups is brought to you by Caldera Lab. Whether you're starting fresh or upgrading your routine, Caldera Lab makes skincare simple and effective. Head to calderalab.com/twist and use TWIST at checkout for 20% off your first order. IRU, unify your identity, endpoint security and compliance into a single platform. Book a demo at iru.com. That's I R U dot com. And LinkedIn jobs. Hire right the first time. Post your first job and get $100 off towards your job post at LinkedIn.com/twist. That's LinkedIn.com/twist. Terms and conditions apply.

• 1:19Jason Calacanis?

  All right, everybody, welcome back. It's Twist. It's Monday, February 23rd, 2026. Alex is back. How you doing, Alex?

• 1:27Speaker 01

  I'm fantastic. Snowed in and looking forward to just eating a lot of soup for the next couple of days.

• 1:31Jason Calacanis?

  Ah, yes, it is a snowstorm. I talked to my mom or I texted with my mom. Lots of snow in Brooklyn. And by lots, I mean a foot, maybe 18 inches, which is nothing. You guys should get a broom and just sweep your stoops. It's nothing compared to what happened in Tahoe last week where I almost bit the bullet. I mean, I learned a lot of lessons, Alex. Number one, don't ski alone in a blizzard. Number two, uh, yeah, don't ski alone in a blizzard.

• 1:59Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:59Jason Calacanis?

  And number three, uh, carry a shovel and a beacon in a blizzard. I'm on a very gingerly blue trail. One of my skis came off. That happens sometimes when you're in powder. And so I fell over, probably about five, six feet of snow has fallen in three days. And so I popped back up instinctually, like, oh, I fell, I popped back up to get my ski. I reached for my ski and all the snow just goes. And I do, I mean, it collapses like two feet and then it goes two feet to the left. So I fall over, only my head and one arm are above the snow line. And I'm like, oh no. And I look to my left and I'm right by the trees. There's a thing called the tree well around a tree, Alex. I'm giving this little preamble because I don't want anybody to die.

• 2:45Jason Calacanis?

  The tree wells is just like a pocket of air, basically, that forms around the tree when the snow is not there. And then if you slide into that, you die because you could go literally six, seven, eight feet down and then the snow collapses on top of you, game over. So I'm like, oh no, I can't hit that tree. And so now I have one hand and I can't move the other one. I'm digging the other hand out. I finally, after five, 10 minutes, dig myself out, get the skis, dig those out. And I'm like crawling on top of my skis, my poles, just trying to get back onto the trail. Uh, it was pretty, pretty scary. So I'm not going to be stupid. Next year I will not ski alone in a blizzard.

• 3:19Speaker 01

  Uh, you know, the like chase cars, you know, that follow a car behind or like a support yacht that follows another yacht? You need like a support skier who just kind of goes behind you and then shoots up a flare gun if you ever eat it because.

• 3:29Jason Calacanis?

  We, we have a name for it. It's called a guide.

• 3:32Speaker 01

  You need a guide.

• 3:33Jason Calacanis?

  You know, if you can afford it, you can have a guide. So I should have had a guide, uh, if I was going to go out alone and, uh, I didn't. And so then the next two days I skied, I just met random people off the mountain. I was like, are you alone? Like, yeah, I was like, you want to ski together? Guy's like, are you J Cal? I was like, yeah. He recognized my voice. I wear like a full mask.

• 3:51Speaker 01

  Imagine all of that money being spent on skiing where you could actually go out and go snowboarding like a cool person. Sad times, Jason, but maybe we'll convert to one of these.

• 3:58Jason Calacanis?

  Plenty of snowboarders out there having a good time. All right. So we got, it's, uh, the year of our Lord, A O 29. After open claw, we're 29 days into this and a lot has occurred, Alex. I did, I called like a code red at the company. I had like three people working on open claw, not on the podcast, but like actually building agents. And I said, Hey, just have five people get together this weekend and learn how to use open claw, just, you know, no pressure, just on a Sunday. If you opt in and like, I think 15 people opted in. So they did training all Sunday. Everybody got up to speed on it and. Now I'm starting to think that I'm going to wind up buying everybody in the company

• 4:41Jason Calacanis?

  a Mac Studio to be running their agent locally. Because you run into roadblocks with this OpenClaw. For people who don't know, OpenClaw, open source agent technology. We're going to talk about it today. We're going to talk about it until it stops, until it stops becoming a massive, what would be the way to say this, a massive accelerant to efficiency in corporations. I'll stop talking about it when it slows down. But it's speeding up. It's speeding up away from even me and my team, because we've been in this since day one, basically, or not day one, we've been in it for 29 days. And it was around for maybe two weeks before that. We've been in it. And we feel like we can't keep up with the changes that are happening.

• 5:25Jason Calacanis?

  But I think you need, Alex, to have your own desktop. Why? People are starting to block the agents.

• 5:32Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 5:33Jason Calacanis?

  I think Gemini today said they're going to block it. I think Claude's blocking it on one of their plans. And other services like Reddit, they want you to use the API. X wants you to use the API. So when you go and ask it, hey, can you go to X and pull out my DMs and put them into a table for me because I don't have time to read them? Can you go get my LinkedIn messages? Can you go do some research for me? Can you get a Reddit account and log in every day and summarize the stuff? It's like, I can't do that. I can't do that. I can't do that. But if you're on a desktop machine, you can kind of spoof it. You know, do it in a browser window with the Claude extension or an extension or whatever. Long story short, this thing is worth the investment. And anybody who's listening to my voice, go back and listen to all the other previous OpenClaw episodes.

• 6:17Jason Calacanis?

  I think we have an OpenClaw playlist, or just go backwards in reverse chronological order. I think every episode, we're talking 50 to 100% about this technology. Never seen anything like it in my career. Never seen anything like it in my career. It's the equivalent of broadband, the internet itself, cloud, mobile, roll it all up into one. This AI boom has manifested in OpenClaw, and OpenClaw is standing on the shoulders of a lot of giants.

• 6:41Jason Calacanis?

  The manifestation that I'm seeing right now is unlike anything I've seen in my career. It's like taking five giant waves and putting them together into a tsunami. I think we'll be able to automate 10% of our work a week, 5% a week. Doesn't seem like a lot, but I thought it would be five or 10% a month and I was happy with that. But 5% a week compounding means, hey, listen, every 14, 15 weeks, we're going to be doubling our efficiency. I'm looking for things for it to do. I'm giving it access to everything. And I'll talk at the end of the show about some of the things I'm building that are, Alex, if you remind me, scary and every CEO's dream. Scary, every CEO's dream.

• 7:25Speaker 01

  All right, so we have Oliver Henry. By day, he works at Revenue Cat. At night, he is an open claw hacker. He is the guy behind the basically viral Larry skill. And he's building a product called Larry Brain that we'll talk about later on. Oliver, welcome to the show.

• 7:39Speaker 02

  Thank you very much for having me. It's, uh, it's been one hell of a journey the last couple of weeks, going from just under a thousand followers on X to talking about Larry and what he's succeeded. And now I'm on almost 13. So it's been, it's been a crazy couple of weeks.

• 7:54Speaker 01

  I feel like we're all in the same time warp, including my dear friend Jeff. Jeff is a solopreneur for products to his name, and he uses OpenClaw to help automate and extend himself. And he's built some really cool tools, including tips for newcomers. Jeff, welcome to the show.

• 8:09Speaker 03

  Thanks, Alex. Really glad to be here. Uh, I, OpenClaw has changed my entire solopreneur lifestyle. Uh, it's, it's been incredible, the amount of things I've been able to automate. Like Jason was saying earlier, I, I look for things all the time and I'm always integrating new, new things that people have built skills or even building my own. I built one for Reddit the other day because they have one for, called Bird. I'm sure you're familiar with it if you use an open claw for, for Twitter, but they don't really have one for Reddit. So I, I built a similar type of tool and put that online, open source it. Thought that was pretty.

• 8:41Jason Calacanis?

  Tell us about, or show us that tool because that's the tool I need right now. One of my big blockers is I'm always trying to get the recent trends off of Reddit. And then it winds up doing a Google search and digesting those pages. I wish Reddit would just come up with a pro account and let me pay 50 bucks a month to have my open claw have an account on Reddit. Like, I should have my account and then Reddit. Steve Huffman, you're awesome. Congratulations on all the success of Reddit of late. Here's my plan. I will pay 50 bucks a month, maybe even 100 as a power user to Reddit. Be happily pay this. I want to have my account, which is like Jason Caligano or Jason M. Caligano, be able to add my replicant.

• 9:26Jason Calacanis?

  So I get to add it. I'm responsible for it. So I will say, you know, I'm not going to let it post. I'm not going to let it do anything nefarious. But I want it to be able to follow my activity and do its own activities. What are the own activities I want to do? I just want to keep abreast of conversations. This weekend I had Claude Code and I was doing with Open Claw as well. A Claw, Claude coworker. I was just trying to make a weekly dossier for Thursday, Alex, of everything that every Austin newspaper subreddit mentioned was on tap for the weekend or might be interesting that weekend. I did it. It worked. It wound up getting some things from Yelp and got some things from Reddit.

• 10:08Jason Calacanis?

  And the two restaurants I went to Saturday and Sunday with the kids were selected by my Open Claw and Claude coworker. Pretty crazy moment.

• 10:17Speaker 01

  So you've actually, you're now an agentic parent, Jason.

• 10:20Jason Calacanis?

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• 11:02Jason Calacanis?

  And hiring the wrong person not only wastes a ton of your valuable time, but it's going to impact morale at your company. You know that. They become a total drain on the entire team. We spent weeks hiring a new editor for the pod. We arranged and we rearranged our entire production team and they quit on the first day. It wasn't a match. We should have trusted LinkedIn jobs and we did. And now we have a great editor who is dialed in. So hire right the first time. Post your first job and get $100 off towards your post at LinkedIn.com/hiringprooffer. That's LinkedIn.com/hiringprooffer. Terms and conditions do apply. Well, yeah, and I think it's time for Reddit to recognize this or X to recognize it.

• 11:45Jason Calacanis?

  And just let me add this account and pair it with me. This would be a way to say, we know that agents are on these services, but this one is being paid for and I'm responsible for their behavior. Just like if I took you to a poker game, Alex, and you got drunk and threw the chips in the air, whatever, you caused a ruckus, like it's my responsibility. And you could just limit it, like I don't have to go, I'm not going to go crazy and scrape all of Reddit. I just like, I have 20 topics I want to keep abreast of.

• 12:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm gonna, so here is the red skill that Jeff put together. Jeff, for folks who don't know, Bird, explain to them what it does and why we need this.

• 12:21Speaker 03

  So Bird for OpenClaw just basically lets you search and reply to people on Twitter or X from your OpenClaw account. And what Red does is it uses the cookies through Safari, the same way Bird does for Twitter, but for Reddit. And it'll let you, and what I've done, like what you're looking to do, Jason, is I, when Discord recently made the announcement that they were doing the face scans and uploading all that data, there was a pretty big backlash. And one of the products I've built is kind of a social chat app. And, um, and so I was trying to capitalize on opportunities. So I went to Reddit because a lot of people were looking for alternatives. And I just had to kind of search through and find me the best opportunities that way.

• 13:06Speaker 01

  Have other people picked it up? Is it popular, this new, new skill?

• 13:11Speaker 03

  I haven't really put it out there very much. Honestly, I just, I just uploaded it because I thought someone else might eventually stumble across it.

• 13:18Speaker 01

  Man, that is the worst marketing job from one of the best marketers I know I've ever heard. That's incredible. Oliver, I want to bring you in here because your skill Larry interacts with TikTok. And I'm curious if you've run into the same sort of permissions issues that Jason is describing over there on the short video front.

• 13:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, so I have hit a ton of problems with trying to get these open claw machines on any social media. So as you've touched on, the crackdown of these agents is, I think, really against the grain to where things are heading. I believe that these social media companies should embrace the, the open claw overlords and let them on the platform. And it's a great way to get that extra bit of monetization. Currently, the people using open claw machines and are fortunate enough to be buying Mac Minis, et cetera, likely can afford the extra subscription to help them become even more powerful. So at the moment, I'm paying for X APIs. I'm paying for all these different APIs for all my agents. So I may as well pay for Reddit.

• 14:22Speaker 02

  I may as well pay for, I don't know, even Facebook, if that's your target audience.

• 14:26Jason Calacanis?

  How are you using it? And if you have a demo, feel free to share it. But how are you using your agents on X?

• 14:32Speaker 02

  So I've just created a skill that would help with the launch of Larry Brain. So when I launched it, there was a ton of questions and I directed everyone to just at Larry. And then on Larry's own Twitter account, he uses the official X API to just monitor his engagements. And I've created a open source Zendesk alternative. So Larry automatically creates tickets. He assigns them a criticality and also suggests fixes. So I can then go through, see what the tickets are, see if they're legit, see if they're needed. And then I've got a button that just presses fix.

• 15:09Jason Calacanis?

  Larry Brain is your product. It's larrybrain.com, am I correct?

• 15:13Speaker 02

  So I've got larrybrain.com, but that stemmed from the Larry TikTok skill, which I could do.

• 15:17Speaker 01

  Right, which I was hoping you could show us, Oliver.

• 15:20Speaker 02

  Yes, so this is my Larry skill. This is Larry, his chat. I use WhatsApp. And this is basically the output. So I'll scroll up so you can see what he's been doing. But he gets revenue cat analytics and creates TikTok content to drive downloads and conversions to my apps. They're his goals. When I first set up Larry, his goal, I told him, was to make more money. So we did this by marketing my app. So I created a Snuggly app, which was a revenue cat internal hackathon, and I decided that I want to market it. I've notoriously always hated marketing. I've had an app for two years that I've been trying to automate the marketing for for

• 16:01Speaker 02

  a very long time. And OpenClaw finally gave me all the skills and all the connections I need to be able to do it in a a good way. So Larry has access to all my engagements, all the way through the top of the funnel at TikTok, all the way down to the new use and conversions using revenue cat APIs. So here you can see the the comments we've got and we can scroll down to him suggesting hooks. So these are hooks based off the data of what is performing on TikTok.

• 16:31Jason Calacanis?

  You make software tools. You want to market them. And the way you're marketing them is through TikTok videos. You created a an agent with OpenClaw called Larry. You told Larry, make me more money. And you gave Larry access to the TikTok data by logging into your account, I assume, or using some third-party tool. And it told it how many comments, how many views, etc. You got for each one. Then you asked it, based on that, come up with ideas, editorial ideas, based on those previous ones, correct? So what was his best idea here?

• 17:14Speaker 02

  So what Larry does, he actually does all that himself. I don't feed him anything. So Larry will post and then daily he will look at the TikTok content and see what is performing, see how his post yesterday's performed, all the way through TikTok interactions and views to new users on the app and conversions on the app.

• 17:32Jason Calacanis?

  So what suggestion did he come up with? Yeah, let's let's read it out loud so he can, the audience can get the benefit here.

• 17:40Speaker 02

  So based on historical data that we've already uploaded, he can see that emotional family hooks get the most views. So we got 413,000 views for mum and dad hooks, 202,000 for the ones starting with nan, and then landlord conflicts are consistently 100 to 200,000 views. So based on that data, he has suggested certain hooks. So my landlord said redecorating would lower the property value. So I showed her what AI can do for our bathroom, and now she's asking to do that to her flat too. My nan keeps saying her kitchen is fine.

• 18:16Jason Calacanis?

  Yeah, for that one, the second suggestion, it also put a skull in there, which is something that like Gen Z does. They put a skull in to like express like I'm dead. And then it actually gave a call, a CTA, a call to action. Screenshot it and show your landlord link in bio. So not only is it studying it, it's coming up with, you know, even the call to action and the copy, which is really great. Now, does it actually make an ad?

• 18:42Speaker 02

  Yes. So then it's interesting on the call to action. I want to touch on that. So the call to action, Larry knows that if a TikTok gets a lot of views, but not many new users have the app because he's got all the context of what happens in the app. He knows that the CTA needs fixing. He knows if it got a lot of views, not many users download the app, the CTA needs fixing. If it got not many views, but a big percentage of those viewers downloaded the app, the hook needs fixing and the CTA is fine. So it's all iterative. This is all Larry making these decisions. And then he creates images using OpenAI Image, ChatGPT Image 1.5, and he'll create the images to make his story

• 19:23Speaker 02

  from the slideshow and then overlay the text and post it using Posters, which is also where he gets the analytics from. And all I have to do is, for example, there will be one ready. So I can go to my TikTok. I get this platform notification, not this Gen viral one, but there'll be one from Larry somewhere. So this is a, an old one from five days ago that I didn't get around to posting. And I just click this and this is what Larry's created. And all I have to do is add the sound and a description.

• 19:56Jason Calacanis?

  Ah, so he puts it in your draft folder. So he's like your

• 19:59Speaker 02

  That's key.

• 20:00Jason Calacanis?

  Creative director, puts it in the draft folder, sends it to the CEO and says, hey, if you like any of these, hit publish and you know, we're ready to go. So there is a human in the loop here. Running a startup means you've got to manage dozens to hundreds of devices. Every employee at my company has a work phone. They have a laptop. Maybe they have a tablet in some cases or a desktop. You could pay for an entire IT team to manage your software updates, security patches and policing everyone's password in software. Or you could sign up with our new partner, IRU, I R U, I R U, and get enterprise-grade security at a startup-friendly price. IRU turns small IT teams into force multipliers and they're going to automate your onboarding, patching and compliance, whether

• 20:44Jason Calacanis?

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• 21:13Speaker 02

  The only reason the human is in the loop, because TikTok knows if something's posted through API. So this circles all the way back around to what you were saying about platforms not, not really catering for the APIs. TikTok will really nerf the amount of views that you get if you post through an API and you can't publish a slideshow with sound through the API. So the only reason I do this is not to get it checked. It is for engagement. So I can add the sound and I can show you that if I add the sound and then click next, Larry already has the description. So all I have to do is add the sound. Press post and I do that simply for engagement and I can show you the, I won't post this one,

• 21:54Speaker 02

  but I can show you the, the profile, how it's performing. So the last one didn't do too good, but you can see that we've had 160,000 views, 130,000, 200,000. This one got 400,000, but then we try some and they don't work. So this one gets 2,000. He tried something new. Now we know it doesn't work. We won't try it again. So every now and then he'll throw a new one in there to see how it performs and then we'll go back to what's working. So there is some experimentation.

• 22:23Jason Calacanis?

  How did you do this, how did you do this previously?

• 22:26Speaker 02

  Oh, so this previously I was writing scripts to do this. So I had a football related app, soccer in the US and I would write a script to create hook and demo videos. So I would record loads of hooks of my face, have one demo of the app and then I would write us all my hooks in a text file and then the script would just mash them all together. So put the two videos together and put different text and then I would bulk upload them to upload via API each time.

• 23:01Jason Calacanis?

  So it was basically you were doing all this work. Now this has freed you from doing it as the solopreneur.

• 23:07Speaker 02

  And it has saved me so much time and over 3,000 people are now using Larry and the feedback has been incredible. So I really think I've done a net positive for, for Open Claw and for a lot of people who also hate marketing as much as I do.

• 23:20Speaker 01

  Oliver, one more thing from you. So we were going over this in a pre-call and I was like, can you show it to me live? And you said, no, because I'm using batch processing from, I think it was through OpenAI. Can you just explain why you made that choice and why other people might want to consider using that in their Open Claw setup?

• 23:35Speaker 02

  To preface, Larry doesn't just post slideshows. He, the core of Larry is the full analytic funnel from top to bottom. And no matter what your product is, he can track metrics to a website. He can track downloads to an app. He can track product purchases, but you can create whatever content you want. I created it with GPT Image 1.5 because the app snugly is an interior design app that transforms your room using AI and it uses GPT Image 1.5. So I just wanted the content to match what the user is going to see in the app. You can use anything you want. I use the batch processing because. It's recently come out from OpenAI and it just saves money on the processes.

• 24:18Speaker 02

  So the benefit is Larry can then post, create all the slideshows in the morning to post throughout the day and it just saves me a ton of money posting them.

• 24:28Jason Calacanis?

  I mean, this is genius.

• 24:29Speaker 02

  Or creating them at the time.

• 24:30Jason Calacanis?

  And it's literally, I think, when people, the reason I'm so stuck on this, Alex, and making sure we show over and over and over again how people are building this to people who are the tip of the spears, is we're going to see this solo entrepreneur movement, or just, you know, two, three-person company. But instead of doing what they used to do, which is having to hire people to do all these job functions, the last three years, what I saw founders doing was asking ChatGPT. And they would ask it, how do I write a press release? How do I do a job description? How do I negotiate a convertible note? What's the difference between a convertible note and a save? How do I file a trademark? How do I negotiate a domain purchase? All this stuff.

• 25:15Jason Calacanis?

  And they would get educated really fast. So they became like superhuman. It was like Keanu Reeves in The Matrix, sitting down, they plug him in and he wakes up and he knows Kung Fu. Now, this is totally different. This is like, I'm going to make a replicant who goes out in the world and it goes and learns and it goes and does something. And the failure of humans is our inconsistency. And the success of computers is their consistency. And that's why it's been this great collaboration for the last 50 years or so. But the challenge has always been, the computers aren't very creative or iterative and that you, it's hard, you have to write code to get them to understand it. Now, you don't have to write code, you talk in English and it's recursive.

• 25:58Jason Calacanis?

  And this is where we really have to pause for a second and appreciate what Oliver's doing. Oliver's building this right. He's having Larry, his replicant. Recursively learn how to get better and better and better at the job. You and I, Alex, if we were gonna do a job, like, we try to get better, but we forget. We got lives, we got kids, we got sleep, you gotta eat, sometimes you get sick. These things are now going and learning. Now, Oliver, are you doing any other, like, training for your replicant? Other than just on its own work? Because what we did is internally, we set up every Sunday and Saturday that one of our replicants goes and does the latest research for only the past week

• 26:42Jason Calacanis?

  on how to do better titles, how to do better thumbnails, et cetera, et cetera. It came back this week and said, Mr. Beast released how they're doing thumbnails now? And it summarized it for us on Sunday. And I saw it, I would never, I wouldn't have remembered, oh, I gotta get better at thumbnails. And it said, oh, Mr. Beast is using a heat map piece of software that's available. They put 50 thumbnails in it. They tested across X number of people. Then they take the top five thumbnails and then they do a second test with those top five and see which ones do better. And I was like, oh, heat maps for thumbnails? That might be a little too much for a podcast, but it's kinda interesting, right? So, we're having it go out and teach itself, Oliver. Have you thought of that?

• 27:25Jason Calacanis?

  Like, go out on Reddit and X and YouTube and find people talking about how to get better at a skill?

• 27:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, so, not particularly the skill, but when I first created Larry, I installed him and I headed out the house. I went to a soccer match and I was in the stadium, knowing exactly what I want to do, texting him about the goal of this marketing that I wanted to achieve. And the first thing we did was sent him into the world on X using the Bird skill before it sort of got, became a gray area with X, and sent him the accounts that I followed that. Show post slideshow content, marketing content for apps. And I had him just research all that data and see what worked, just to get to a point where we could start. And now I don't really have to do that anymore because he's, he's building his own data.

• 28:14Speaker 02

  And of course, this is going to vary by product to product. So you just have to start. And if you're not getting the hundreds, tens of thousands of views to start, just wildly create different content. Tell your agent, use the Larry skill, say, create different content until something works. At the very bottom of this page, we experimented with faces. So people with different reactions, they didn't get any views. And then as soon as we posted this one, 20,000 views and we would double down and it's taken off. So just do it until what works and it will learn itself. It's pretty, pretty special.

• 28:50Speaker 01

  Jeff, this iterative process we're describing reminds me a little bit of your, your core loop setup that you have as part of your open claw. Guide here. One thing that I was curious about is how you have humans built in here. This is you reviewing and kind of course, questioning what your agent does. So can you talk us through the core loop and then we have that demo plan, let's, let's do it.

• 29:09Speaker 03

  Yeah. Okay. So, so basically the, the way the core loop works is I am still involved in the process, but the, but the process is, is everything is, is run through open clause. So I essentially text it through iMessage. I will send it screenshots of the apps I'm working on, all, all the things I'm working on, bug reports, any kind of console logging. And then it just kind of figures it out. What I've realized is when I used to do this manually before open claw existed 30 days ago, 29 days ago.

• 29:41Speaker 03

  I would have to manually like think of an idea of how, how I wanted to build a feature into my app. Kind of run through Claude code with it and have it spec it out and figure all this stuff out. But what I'm realizing now is when a computer is talking to another computer, I feel like it's just smarter. It just, they get each other better for some reason, like the features that it is producing are of much higher quality and better value. Less bugs right out of the gate than when I'm prompting it. It's insane.

• 30:09Jason Calacanis?

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• 30:54Jason Calacanis?

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• 31:13Speaker 03

  So what I've done in my system in OpenClaw is I've built in additional memory that logs every day. If it's not written down, it's not, it's not remembered. So everything that I send it, it's remembering. And I just built in recently share core memory that between the different agents that I have, I have four. I have FUBS, I have Quill, I have Patches and Scout. And those guys now communicate with one another. So wouldn't it be helpful if the code knew what the marketing, you know, agent was doing so that way, when it wrote the copy, that it actually wrote copy that was aligned with the feature set?

• 31:51Jason Calacanis?

  So how do you sync that memory file between them? Or just point them all to one file? Cause that's not default in OpenClaw, is it? Cause each one has their own memory.

• 32:01Speaker 03

  So that's actually, I sent a link to Alex earlier to an open, the My Starter Kit that I built out and put on GitHub. And it has all that kind of built into it. Essentially what we're doing, cause as you, as you noted, the memory doesn't exist in like the vanilla OpenClaw. It's a memory dot M D file. And basically, you know, it, it gets more knowledge every day. And as you maintain it and you feed it more information, like I'll send it links. Tweets or articles that I think that are worth reading that it should know about. And now, proactively, when I'm building in the future, it'll know about that article or that tweet I sent it. And it'll be, and it'll say, well, here's what, you know, Jason said on Twitter about X, you know,

• 32:45Speaker 03

  the future of OpenClaw and where it's headed, and maybe you should consider this before you build this feature. You know, type of skill. So it's, I think, I think getting it to be as proactive as possible is really more important than automating as much as possible, so to speak. You want it to make your life faster, easier, and the, and the, and the real, the real kind of throttle is how fast you can make good decisions. You know, at the end of the day.

• 33:09Speaker 01

  So show us FUBS. You have a demo of that from iMessage and how you use it. And same thing with Oliver, just make sure you sportscast as you talk through what you're showing us.

• 33:18Speaker 03

  Sure, I'm gonna share my, my iMessage window with FUBS right here. Hold on one second.

• 33:24Speaker 01

  Jeff, I'm not gonna lie, I have to ask, why is it called FUBS?

• 33:29Speaker 03

  Okay, so this is, this is pretty crazy, but I, I had, I started a web forum called Best Techy when I was a 13-year-old kid. And on the web forum, there was a guy who registered, and his name was FUBS, and I always thought it was a great name, and I just stole it. Sorry, FUBS. Here, I'm sharing my screen now. So what I'm gonna do is I'm just gonna start recording us talking. And if Jason or Alex want to give out, you know, essentially, well, you want to build a landing page to talk about whatever it is you want to talk about.

• 34:03Speaker 01

  All right, I'll take a stab at that. FUBS, could you build me a, a landing page that describes how Jason Calacanis should ski safely in the future to ensure stability here at Launch Company?

• 34:18Speaker 03

  Cool. All right, so I'm gonna save this. I'm gonna send it to FUBS.

• 34:22Speaker 01

  So while we're waiting for that, Jeff, what is the method by which you're getting the audio handled on the OpenClaw side?

• 34:30Speaker 03

  So the audio, this is just standard through iMessage audio. Uh, it basically open claw, I think, I believe does have.

• 34:41Speaker 03

  I, I, I, you know, sometimes I forget what, what, what comes out of the box, but I believe you can send in messages out of the box.

• 34:48Speaker 01

  Oh, I didn't know that. I learned something.

• 34:50Speaker 03

  I'm not sure exactly if that comes out of the box or not, but it, you can, you can do it. Essentially, so while I just talk to it, usually via text, I don't type, talk to it that much. Although talking is, I think, honestly, the future where we should be looking, uh, is a lot of voice based stuff.

• 35:07Jason Calacanis?

  I agree with you. I'm starting to now get frustrated. This is how entitled I am with my open claw. I am getting frustrated with having to type and instruct it. And I am, I'm literally like, let's skip the voice and just put it into my brain. Like, give me a neural link so I can just think what I want. But I think this is a short term thing because onboarding these is like, I think, like onboarding a new employee, but an employee who is in, works infinite hours at an infinitely faster speed. So I guess we have to maybe just accept the fact that it's going to take,

• 35:50Jason Calacanis?

  you know, 30 days to obsolete ourselves, which is, I kind of feel is happening.

• 35:54Speaker 01

  We had, um, Matt Van Horn on from last 30 days a couple of times. And I think he was the guy using a, a specific mic on his desk, Jason, and then Whisper Flow to talk to it. And in the moment I was like, that's a little bit fussy. Why do you need that? But I've also found the same thing that when I'm typing to any, any AI, not just open claw, but even like a chat GPT instance, it feels incredibly slow because I can talk, I think, a little faster than I can type, even though I can type pretty quickly. And so suddenly it feels like I'm walking through mud and that's not how I've ever felt before using a computer. I felt fast before, but now I feel slow. So I think this is like demanding new interfaces.

• 36:30Speaker 03

  I joke now that I could only, I'm moving at the speed of compute because I could only go as fast as the computer lets me go sometimes.

• 36:37Jason Calacanis?

  Yeah. All right. Here we go. Keep Jason safe on the mountain, a website.

• 36:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, so this is a pretty simple demo, Jason, but what what Fubs can do and what Jeff showed me offline was that he's also using it to hunt down bugs and build features and that sort of thing, but that's not very visually appealing. So we settled on this to show it off in practice.

• 36:55Jason Calacanis?

  Love it.

• 36:56Speaker 03

  So essentially what this did was it put together this entire website for you. I can send you a link. I'll put it in the chat, but basically, and then it spun it up on Vercell and and now it's available for everyone to visit. But a lot of the stuff that I'm doing is really like troubleshoot, like doing things in real time. So like, I don't think pull requests should be a thing anymore. Like, you should be able to fix things pretty much instantaneously if you feel if you see a bug. And that's pretty much what I'm doing. And so, for example, I can, I can show you the fave icon on my website for Cackles, which is my social app, wasn't working. So I said, fix the fave icon on Cackles. And this is what it did. It found the issue. There's no fave icon. And then it pushed a push and

• 37:41Speaker 03

  update and I have to press any more buttons. It was live, just like that. I asked it this morning, is my app down? I can't log in. And it was just happened to be a bug that it found because it logged me out overnight. Feature requests, I was able to build feature requests. This was also this morning. And this happens like this was just the other day. I fixed 10 bugs in a matter of few hours. It's, it's amazing the amount of how fast I can work using OpenClaw technology here.

• 38:14Jason Calacanis?

  How much faster if you were to just put a number on it?

• 38:18Speaker 03

  Well,

• 38:18Jason Calacanis?

  How much faster are you going in terms of the dev side of the business?

• 38:21Speaker 03

  I couldn't code before, but from the marketing perspective, it like, I'm doing full outreach to people with research on them, understanding who they are, why we should reach out to them, what copy we should say, what platforms to reach out to them, actually automating the out, the output and sending it to them. Like, I'm like, that would take days, weeks, you know, by myself, maybe more, you know, to find all that.

• 38:45Jason Calacanis?

  This is going to be an interesting moment in time when people have so many replicants. Out there contacting humans and then humans are like, you know what? I need a replicant to get in my email box to respond to these. And it's just going to be like a constant back and forth. Very cool uses there.

• 39:02Speaker 01

  So Jason, we have a lot of questions from the audience about memory inside of Open Claw. People are really fired up about this. So a couple of questions for the room here. Jason, this one's for you. Big Will 0504 says, I want to hear about long-term memory management for Ultron, which is the launch meta Open Claw setup. Has performance degraded at all over the last few weeks as context balloons?

• 39:25Jason Calacanis?

  Yeah, TBD. We are waiting on our Mac Studios and I'm on a Mac Mini right now. So I've just gotten on the Mac Mini and it's helping me get to different pages. What I was going to show, actually it's a good segue there. This is what I'm having my replicant do just for me. I gave it access to the entire company's Notion, the entire company Slack, and the entire company's Google Docs. So for myself, I said, hey, just every four hours summarize my email and tell me what I should be doing. But I realized if I show this on the screen right now, it's going to show like people's, what companies we're investing in.

• 40:09Jason Calacanis?

  So I said, just replace any company with color and names of people with animals. So what you can see here is like Moose at Moose Consulting about Cobalt, Circle Back Next Week, yada, yada. This one should be archived. It's just a billing, et cetera. So now I'm starting to put into its memory, all the important emails. And then I said, hey, do this with Notion as well. Give me the last 10 Notion pages from the last, which is just from the last 14 minutes in our company. And it says, oh, there's an untitled page here by Hummingbird. It's empty. Here's a Chartreuse one. Now, these could be private pages. These could be pages I don't know about. This is the last 10 pages.

• 40:51Jason Calacanis?

  And so this is incredibly powerful for the CEO to just understand the pulse of the company.

• 40:59Jason Calacanis?

  So now what I'm doing is, and then here it says, oh, here's this one, they've, this is a company report. We just did our first call with Jaguar. And here's what they do. And they've got 91% trial conversion. All this stuff is coming in. So now I'm saying, hey, number this stuff. I'm going to ask you questions about those. And then it will fire off. I had it fire off over the weekend. Just email everybody on the, or Slack everybody in the team and say, do you have any, um, do you have any questions for Jason? And is there anything that's blocking you from getting work done? And it just sent it to everybody. Now it's going to put into its brain, what are the blockers that we have for the company? Then I'm going to take the team reports. So I'm going to have the investment team, the podcast team, and the sales team. And I'm going to make a ticker, a live ticker, where

• 41:44Jason Calacanis?

  we all see each other working in the hive mind. Here's like, so Alex, when we had this issue with, I think you were producing Monday show, and maybe Jacob was doing Wednesdays, and we invited the same guest. And there was nothing. So the solution to that is, everybody's emails, in real time, everybody's Notion page, everybody's Slack messages, you already see them. But then having the agents say, hey, uh, we've got four discussions going on with companies that are negotiating term sheets, and it's dragged on past the average of three days. Hey, we've got, no, we've got too many guests on the show, we got too

• 42:26Jason Calacanis?

  much booked, you know, we're going to need some help over there. And the idea is to have everybody, um, sharing all information, and then having that one Ultron becoming the ultimate CEO. So I don't have to be the CEO, or hire a CEO. They're just CEO-ing. They understand the entirety of the company. And then they will ask questions to each member, hey, Alex, anything blocking? And Alex is like, yeah, you know, my computer's slow. I need a new computer. Great. Boom. All of these questions will come up, and It's a little bit creepy, I guess, because people have this sense that like, oh, their documents or their work product, like, oh, I'm not ready to share it now, whatever.

• 43:09Jason Calacanis?

  That's kind of over now with this next generation. They all live in public. They all work in public. They all live stream. So for old heads like me and Alex, like Gen Xers, might be like, wait a second. Like, my email's my email. It's like, nope, that's your corporate email. And we're a finance company. So I don't know, maybe a year ago, when we had to lock all the computers down because of some partners we have, many partners we have who require like a certain level of security because of documents we have, like legal documents. We gifted everybody their old computers or told them like, just don't do anything on your corporate computer, ever. That would be embarrassing to you and/or the company, the corporate communications, all owned by the company, and it's all stored forever. This is like standard for JP Morgan or Goldman Sachs.

• 43:53Jason Calacanis?

  But at a startup or a venture firm, you might not think it. So we've been very it's very interesting. We've been very clear with people to be very thoughtful about that. So now with the sales team, I was always asking questions to the sales team. Now I don't have to answer questions. If I want to know if a contract's been signed or not, Ultron knows. If I want to know if we've talked to a client and when we last talked to them, I don't have to ask the salesperson or the sales manager, hey, these five clients, when's the last time we talked to them? It will just tell me. It knows. It knows everything. It's the oracle. It's the Ultron. And that's what I think is going to change, is the whole communication friction and the processing of it and the understanding of what the organization's doing

• 44:38Jason Calacanis?

  is going to just instantly be removed. The number one complaint people have about their company, the highest performing companies, the lowest performing companies, and everybody in between. You ask any employee, what do we need to do better? And they say, communication. They say, absolutely. It's like, always communication. Oh, we got to communicate better. I didn't know about this. I didn't know about that. Now it's like, you know what? You got your wish. Ask the oracle. The oracle knows all. There is nothing in a silo. Break all silos.

• 45:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, it's interesting. It feels like the age of transparency is kind of upon us, so long as our agents can access the information in question.

• 45:15Jason Calacanis?

  Yeah.

• 45:16Speaker 01

  Jason, you're talking about Notion and Slack. These are products that are kind of tech-first, if you will, tech-forward, tech-friendly. They have ways to interact with them. A lot of stuff out there doesn't. So do you think that in time, we're going to see even legacy software create like agentic hooks?

• 45:31Jason Calacanis?

  They're gonna have to, or else they'll be out of business. It's a great question. I mean, if you don't have a hook, I was like literally trading a text message with Mark Benioff about Slack, and he's got Slackbot, which is getting better and better. But Slackbot compared to Ultron is like Superman compared to like, I don't know, like an average barista at Starbucks. Like, one can make coffee and one can save the world. Like, it's just, it's not comparable because of the context and the information it has. So either you're gonna need to make Slackbot be able to read everything else in the world, or Notion's AI to read everything else in the world, or I think these companies are going to become

• 46:13Jason Calacanis?

  the systems of record, but the open claw will come in and be able to do it. And there's a limitation on Slack. Like, we don't have like true API access. We need like a really root level, and I think we have to pay $50 a month per person, up from 25, up from like 10.

• 46:32Speaker 01

  Come on, Mark.

• 46:34Jason Calacanis?

  Well, anyway, it's fine. I get it. Like, it's software. People pay for it. It's worth what you pay for it. But then OpenClaw told me, why don't you use MatterPost? I was like, here's what I want to do. And he said, well, why don't we just fire up MatterPost? And I was like, what's MatterPost? And I was like, oh, I remember that. MatterPost is an open-source version of Slack. And it's like, I could set that up for you this weekend. And I was like, huh. And I was like, well, what about our history? He's like, oh, you can export everything. And if you don't have the business account for Slack, here's your, here's your hack. Go onto the business account for one month, upgrade, and then export everything, then cancel, or just get rid of the number of users. And you can export the entire, you know, even the thumbs up and emojis on your Slack posts.

• 47:15Speaker 01

  You're starting to make me think that the SaaS crash isn't irrational, Jason, by talking like that.

• 47:20Jason Calacanis?

  It is not irrational. I think we should open up that topic to the team.

• 47:25Speaker 01

  Do you want to do that now? Or, I was gonna stick to memory.

• 47:28Jason Calacanis?

  You guys give me feedback on what my vision is here for the all-knowing CEO and the ultimate transparency organization.

• 47:36Speaker 01

  I think it's, I think it's both a good idea and the future. I think people have become incredibly accustomed to transparency at work. When we did swap to the software that tracks what we do, it was weird for like three days. And then I realized that I'm the world's most boring person and so it doesn't really impact me. Like, oh, Alex is looking at Slack again. Woo, you know, it's not, not so big. But Oliver, weigh in for us on, on memory, long-term memory and how it's going to impact corporations. Cause you do have a day job, so I presume this is top of mind for you as well.

• 48:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, honestly, it, the tools that are coming out, especially internal tools, exactly what Jason's described. Every company, I believe, who is ahead of the curve right now is creating tools that are specifically beneficial to them. And the way of which we are working has massively accelerated. There are ways that you can implement different tools to fit your exact workflow. I think the age of transparency is very much among us because for what you lose in your transparency and your secret emails with clients, which is not very secret anyway, you gain so much back in the time, the efficiency and the way you can do your job.

• 48:49Speaker 02

  So everyone says AI was going to replace people, but I think for a lot of people, it is going to help secure their job. Because one good employee is now 10 times better with the help of AI.

• 49:03Jason Calacanis?

  Unpack that a bit. Give us like some examples in your mind of, which I'm sure was Alex is going. Hey, if one employee, if we start seeing one employee be able to do the third job, the fourth job, the fifth job, that may not mean I cut the other people, but might it mean I don't hire the 11th person? So walk us through your thinking, Oliver, here.

• 49:23Speaker 02

  So my feeling is that the better AI is getting, the good employees that have great work ethic, get things done, are going to become better employees. But I do think there's going to be a point where those employees are going to be even more hireable than what they currently are. And then the employees that don't cut the slack are going to become less desirable to companies. So there is going to be a trade-off in terms of the people getting hired. But I think as long as you're utilizing the tools to not, not just keep.

• 49:59Speaker 02

  At the level you are, but use it to accelerate where you are. I think that's going to massively help companies and that is the goal of AI. I don't think the goal of AI in the short term is to completely replace people at their companies. It's just to help enable the better employees to get more stuff done because you want your best players in the team at all time.

• 50:16Jason Calacanis?

  Yeah.

• 50:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, but I do worry about the B players. Like I, as a society, we cannot only have an economy for A players. And this is me just worried about, we've all had a friend who has an IQ of 95. What are they going to do?

• 50:29Jason Calacanis?

  Dude, I'm right here, bro. I'm on the pod, I'm the host of the pod.

• 50:33Speaker 01

  What I would do. I would round it up if I was talking about you to a solid 97.

• 50:38Speaker 03

  I would just say what I would really be concerned about if I was a person who had a, you know, a software engineering job or just any job really. Is that, well, it's not just that you might be replaced by an agent. What does it cost to, to hire an agent essentially for, you know, to, for that person who's already working for you? Like versus, versus replacing them completely versus hire in addition to hiring an additional person. You know what I mean? Like where, like there's an actual cost to this agent stuff. It's not, it doesn't just, it's not free. You can't just, you know, just run this stuff for free. So it costs me money every month to be able to do all the work that I'm doing. Uh, in addition to, you know, you know, paying myself or paying whoever.

• 51:23Speaker 03

  Uh, there's an additional kind of allowance you need to set up for your business that equates to tokens essentially.

• 51:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:30Jason Calacanis?

  We talked about that on All In, it's just the token cost getting out of control. But we have a plan for that, which is, you know, we got Mac Studios and I am just started to pencil out like, I think we need like five mega replicants and we're going to put specialization into each one. I think that actually is the best way to do it. Just because we don't want to hit upper memory bounds. We don't want them to be slow and grinding to a halt and. It'll create like pools of excellence where I can put two or three employees who are responsible for the first calls at our venture firm, or the three or four people who are in charge of sales and, you know, advertising on this week and startups and our events,

• 52:12Jason Calacanis?

  put them just in charge of that. So if they're just in charge of those things, they can scale up. And I like buying two Mac Studios for 10K each and, you know, whatever, spending 25K for four or five or six instances, 100K, 200K, who cares if it makes everybody that much faster? Because you spread that cost over four years or five years and you're golden. The issue around SaaS, I think, is a big one, Alex, that we should discuss. And there was, you know, this something is happening post from a couple of weeks ago, a video I did with the Bulwark where I said, listen, I think Amazon employees are all gone by 2030, 2035. And then this one came out, which is titled,

• 52:57Speaker 01

  The 2028 Global Intelligence Crisis from our dear friends at Citrin Research.

• 53:02Jason Calacanis?

  Yeah. So, I mean, their basic premises around SaaS and they're basically saying, hey, when people got on the calls with their SaaS salesperson, they were asking for the standard 5% increase in cost. And the CFO, who was working with the CTO, said, hey, we love your software, but we're thinking about spinning up our own, which we can do with our frontline developers. Therefore, we'll keep your software, but we want a 30% discount.

• 53:28Speaker 01

  There you go.

• 53:29Jason Calacanis?

  And they make the meta point that all these companies then cut headcount, start using AI tools to make, you know, let's say Salesforce or Asana, I think they use, let's make Asana, let's make Salesforce more efficient as a company. And in the short term, their profits went up. But in the long term, they fed the AI how to build their software, where I think they kind of imply this, I kind of read into it, that the more you use these tools and the better they get and the more you invest in them, the more you accelerate the compression.

• 54:00Jason Calacanis?

  Of profitability of software. Does that make sense, Alex? Am I explaining it correctly? It's like super deflationary.

• 54:06Speaker 01

  It's super deflationary because one thing people forget is that SaaS was super popular for a couple of reasons. One, it was recurring, yes, but also people hired more people over time. And so you would sell more seats and you could raise prices. And what that did was give SaaS companies a really beautiful tailwind, Jason. It meant that you could invest today, a flywheel even. You can invest today in sales and marketing, burn some cash, but who cares? Because you know that that contract will grow by 10, 15% every year. And so the money always made sense. But the moment you start moving that number down, suddenly your CAC looks terrifying. Suddenly you're worried about your marketing efficiency. Suddenly you can't count on your revenue the way you could. And SaaS is not durable in that context. It's a sponge you can squish.

• 54:48Speaker 01

  And the thing that I like about this piece, Jason from Citrini, is that it's not doomer in that, you know, AI will fail or open clause, you know, a hype fat or whatever. But instead it's like, what if it all goes right? What if AI is powerful? What if it is as strong as we think? And I think more people should be thinking about that.

• 55:06Speaker 03

  So I've actually been thinking, I have two SaaS businesses that I built, the Who Covers It and the Wizard RFP. And essentially I've been thinking about, well, now I got to agentify them. I got to figure out a way to, to make them so that way agents, like another agency's agents can talk to them. And just basically work through the whole process in a couple of chat messages as opposed to traditional kind of click here, click here, type a few things, hit a button, wait a second, and then it loads. You know, that's just not going to cut it anymore. And I think, I think as more people start moving towards this environment where I, I think about computing,

• 55:49Speaker 03

  how it's evolved and it's crazy because we're, we're, we're, you know, we were, we were point and click and type for a while. Now we're tap, tap, tap on a screen where we're, you know, and, and, and now we're just, and we've actually compressed our entire computing environment into just a chat message now. Like we, you know, we used to be in every different apps. Windows, things like that. One of the big complaints for the iPhone originally, I think, and still to this day is that it's not good at multitasking, really. Same with the iPad, but now it doesn't really matter because we're only, we're all living in one window. So.

• 56:23Speaker 01

  I mean, I, I remember with my parents, uh, they had a small business and they upgraded their office suite from like, I, I don't know, from 2003 to 2007 and they introduced the ribbon interface and they were freaking out because they'd used Word in one way for their entire life and they couldn't take the change to where their buttons were. What a silly conversation today because we don't need an interface the way we used to. People talk about how apps are, you know, going away, everything's going to become atomized. But I think the phrase agentify your SaaS is going to be a little clunky phrase there, Jeff, but I like it. I think that's going to become a theme for 2026.

• 56:56Speaker 02

  This is, this is also my big thing at the moment. There is definitely going to be a time that there is going to be a side of the internet for the AI and a side of the internet for humans. And the goal for the AI would just be making the, making everything as easy to find as possible. And I've got a demo based on what we've been saying, where I think the future of SaaS is heading. Because with these servers we've got, I'll show you, with these servers we've got in our homes now, we don't have to be worried about hosting costs. We don't have to be worried about any of these things. Here we go, here's Chrome. So you don't have to worry about domain costs. You don't worry, have to worry about hosting costs.

• 57:39Speaker 02

  With these skills, this is a skill that I've created that scans Twitter for mentions to particular accounts and creates tickets based, all based on Larry, so that you can see the channel is from X. Larry assigns an urgency to them. I can click into the tickets and then Larry suggests fix for me. And then I can set it solve, I can make Larry fix it. And the future of SaaS is just making these skills as searchable as possible. And I've sort of moved towards this with my product Larry Brain. So you can ask your agent right now to install the Larry Brain skill. And what the skill is, is it gives your agent context of.

• 58:17Speaker 01

  We're gonna, we're gonna come to skills in just a second, but first we do have to take a look at our final live thing of the day. So can you stop screen sharing for a moment? I'm going to do this and we're going to get right back to skills in a second.

• 58:26Speaker 02

  Okay, cool.

• 58:27Speaker 01

  All right, Jason, there is a company out there that we talked about on the show called Discord, and they are currently in the middle of blowing up their reputation by demanding that everyone scan their face, which people don't want to do. And so I was curious what the sharps over at Polymarket are doing when it comes to their IPO prospects. And you might be shocked to hear this, but they're relatively stable. Except for one important thing. During the great brouhaha and blow up of Discord, people claiming they're going to uninstall it, stop using it, the people were betting quite heavily on that it would not go public, essentially. And then suddenly that's changed again. But it's fascinating to watch people kind of like vet the news items against the IPO prospects. And this is actually, I think, one of my favorite use cases of Polymarket,

• 59:12Speaker 01

  because I know what I think about a couple of news points that might tell me where the world's going in the technology space. But I love to see kind of the aggregated wisdom of the crowd.

• 59:21Jason Calacanis?

  The Polymarket for the Discord IPO closing market cap. If we put it, when did the news drop? This dropped today, yesterday, a week ago?

• 59:30Speaker 01

  This was, Jeff, back me up here. When did Discord say that we're going to do the facial scanning thing?

• 59:36Speaker 03

  A week or so ago.

• 59:37Speaker 01

  About a week or so ago.

• 59:38Jason Calacanis?

  So put it on one week, let's see one week view.

• 59:40Speaker 01

  All right.

• 59:40Jason Calacanis?

  I just want to see if I can, yeah, okay. So here's one week. And the top choice of 15 billion, 32%, that didn't really change.

• 59:51Speaker 01

  No.

• 59:52Jason Calacanis?

  It may have gone down a little bit in the beginning of the week, it looks like, but not much. So the second one is the one that seems to have been volatile, that blue one, which is no IPO. So they, there was a group that thought maybe it would not IPO because of this, or it could get pushed back in 2016, but then that came back down too. So yeah, the news is, what do they say? Sell the news?

• 1:00:17Speaker 01

  Uh, no. Buy the rumor, sell the news.

• 1:00:19Jason Calacanis?

  Sell the news, right. Like the news doesn't matter, I guess. Or maybe the news is always bad, anyway.

• 1:00:25Speaker 01

  Or it's priced in.

• 1:00:26Jason Calacanis?

  Or it's priced in, so why would you buy on it? Uh, you know, this is interesting. Why do they want to scan people's faces? And is this because of the new kids regulation or because of bots?

• 1:00:38Speaker 01

  It's the kids thing and the fact that people are doing nefarious things online without proper oversight. And countries like Australia are banning social media. So you need to know how old people are so they can't join your products. And so this is kind of the future, which is oddly retro. But I do like to see how regulation and product changes impact people's IPO prospects, Jason. Because what's my favorite thing? IPOs.

• 1:01:01Jason Calacanis?

  Yeah, I am, I am a fan of restricting kids under 16 on social media severely. I think it's incredibly bad for their health and I'm really happy that a lot of the schools, including ones I go to, have a no phone policy now. And that's all happened in the last two years where phones get checked in at the front desk. Kids don't use them during the day. They can go check them if they have to call their parents for some reason or whatever. And they get them on the way out and kids hate it for three days and then they become kids again. So it's incredibly reversible, you know, what we've done to kids. But being permanently online is the issue and we really need to figure out ways to turn off internet access.

• 1:01:42Jason Calacanis?

  In fact, that just reminded me, I have a router where I can pick everybody's devices and I should be able to turn their devices off. But then I just realized they have 5G connections on some devices. So we have a basket in the kitchen where you're supposed to put your devices at the end of the day.

• 1:01:58Speaker 01

  We're literally getting one of those for our house. Yeah, it's time. But I was about to say, Jason, you should just open claw the wifi access on a per-device basis using your home Mac Studio.

• 1:02:07Jason Calacanis?

  I can do that. I can do that now with my Unifi router. The problem is if your kid has 5G as well, you can't turn it off. But I guess I can use the Mac settings to turn off the phone, you know, at a certain time at night. Anyway, this is all very complicated.

• 1:02:22Speaker 01

  Great in your world.

• 1:02:23Jason Calacanis?

  Is the, I guess the facial scanning does a good enough job knowing age that they think that this would be a plausible way to age gate? Is facial recognition is plausible?

• 1:02:35Speaker 01

  I think it needs to be good enough as an age gate mechanism to get regulators off their backs and also good enough to get parents out of their legal filings. But I don't think they're shooting for, for a hundred percent. We were about to talk about skills and this is something that I've been thinking a lot about in the open cloud context. I've done some homebrew hacking of skills myself, but one thing I've been thinking about is that people love to say, oh, you know, I now have five, you know, agentic employees. One's a marketer, one's a copywriter, one's a developer. And to me, that is predicated or depends on there being a, an ample library of skills that are very good at the thing you're trying to automate. But often people will automate or try to get open cloud to do things they're not good at, like, I don't know, software development's one example.

• 1:03:18Speaker 01

  But how do people ensure that they have the skills they need? And when should they build their own to make sure that what they're putting together is a direct fit for what they're trying to accomplish?

• 1:03:30Speaker 02

  So this is an extremely interesting topic and it's one I struggled with when I first downloaded open cloud myself. I knew that skills were a thing, but finding them was very difficult. It was very hard to search through the Claw hub marketplace at the start. So I created Larry Brain, which is a skill in itself that searches the Larry Brain marketplace. But as soon as you install it, whenever you ask your agent a question, it will say, hey, there's a skill available on Larry Brain for this. And it's what I was showing before. So these can be web interfaces hosted locally because you've got a server in your room. That's Larry behind me. So he can host these web services. And again, you no longer need to pay for cloud costs.

• 1:04:13Speaker 02

  You no longer have to pay for domains hosting. The skills can be a variety of things, whether it's, as Jason said earlier, plugging, plugging into the matrix and teaching your agent Kung Fu, or a whole tool that you can use to monitor your, your current product. It's incredible how powerful these skills can be. It's the enablement of finding them that I think a lot of people have found as a, as a struggle, especially people who aren't familiar with computers then downloading OpenClaw.

• 1:04:43Speaker 01

  So ClawHub's gotten better. It's not great. It's definitely an improved state over where it was when I first started to play with it. So why do we need Larry Brain, which is a SaaS product, as far as I understand it, to help us find skills? And does that not go against a little bit of the, the open source ethos that's powered the OpenClaw boom?

• 1:05:02Speaker 02

  So I'm all for open source. I think I was the first, one of the first people I published Larry on ClawHub, the Larry skill, which was the marketing we discussed earlier. But it's just the discoverability of ClawHub. And then, of course, people still want to make money from these skills. And Larry Brain enables you to monetize your skills. So you can publish to Larry Brain, get a similar revenue share model that X would use. So the most popular skills will get the most money. But I think there is definitely going to be paid skills, premium skills and open source skills.

• 1:05:33Jason Calacanis?

  I would pay for skills for sure, especially if they continue to be updated and I trusted the person making them. So I really need to have that trust layer. And I want to see, like, I don't know, every 10 days, you tell me, hey, here's how it got better. And that would make it worth paying for in my mind, for sure. Because I'm trying to teach it, you know, if somebody made one, how to evaluate startup companies. I'd be like, well, I have my own methodology, but why wouldn't I pay a thousand dollars a year or a month if it was good to add it to ours and say, hey, we have our score, give me your score. Just like there's a Rotten Tomatoes and there's a Metacritic score. If somebody came up with those for scoring startups and there were five different people

• 1:06:17Jason Calacanis?

  who made them, I would run all five of them. And then I would have my agent Ultron look at the five scores and say, how does this apply to our methodology and our experience? Right? And I would, I mean, I might pay $100,000 a year for a skill that was actually that good.

• 1:06:32Speaker 01

  Yeah. And more secure. We just had a comment from West Doc over on X and he's like, skills are the number one attack vector. Do not auto install skills by default.

• 1:06:40Jason Calacanis?

  Definitely not.

• 1:06:40Speaker 01

  But, but Jason, if you pay for a skill and you're paying for that trust layer, that should come with some cybersecurity protections built in. Yeah?

• 1:06:47Jason Calacanis?

  Yeah. I want to know who's, who's making the skill, why they're making it, what their perspective is. I would, it's almost like, you know, you can, the story behind the restaurant or the story behind the album is as important as the food or the music. Sometimes like understanding this artist who just went through a breakup, I forgot her name, English actress, English, she is an actress too on Broadway. Anyway, she just came up with an album about breaking up with the guy from Stranger Things and Lily Allen, thank you.

• 1:07:22Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:07:22Jason Calacanis?

  So Lily Allen's album is about this like personal heartbreak and whatever. And this is all very dramatic, whatever, but the intent behind it matters. Same thing with a restaurant. You go to a restaurant and the person says, hey, listen, I went to Japan and I really enjoyed this type of sushi, really high end sushi served in a pretty fast casual way, you know, and a small number of items, but done really well, like this guy Philip I know who's a chef here is doing. And the intent behind his restaurant made me want to go. Right? So the intent behind the skill and the person and their perspective and why they're creating it really matters.

• 1:08:03Speaker 01

  We're so far from that.

• 1:08:04Speaker 03

  AI now, I think, I think, you know, having product experience or just general, you know, market experience in a particular industry is critical, more so than even being, more so than being able to code now, certainly. You know, if you can, if you can figure out how to, how to code, vibe coded or whatever, it's, you know.

• 1:08:26Speaker 01

  So when, when, when does the 10x, but Jeff, when does the, when does the 10x marketer make the 10x marketing skill? When does the 10x, I don't know, public speaker make the public speaking skill? Like, like, how long until we get like the, the best skill made by the best person who can vet it and verify it as the best at its task? Cause I, like, you wouldn't want me to make the sushi skill, cause I don't eat seafood, you know?

• 1:08:49Speaker 03

  Right, right. No, it, it, we, it has proliferation of open claw or similar type products that, that come out will, will make this happen faster. As more people get this stuff in their hands, the faster we'll see stuff created and the better it'll be.

• 1:09:06Speaker 01

  I think we need like a rating system. I, I love what Oliver's doing with Larry Brain. I think it's a really cool idea and I hope it succeeds. But I think we could also use like a, like a Yelp for skills, because right now on Claw Hub, I know I can see downloads and I can see the little virus scan, but past that, I'm just reading the skills dot M D, you know, I, I.

• 1:09:23Speaker 03

  There's a popular skill that's going out. It was on X all over the place for a couple of weeks called Claude Mem, I believe. Anyway, it's like, it's like, it's like a crypto scam thing. They basically are crypto. And, and like I, I, I ran it across, I ran it against Fubs to have it check it. He's like, don't install this. This is bad. I was like, I'll leave a comment to let everyone know, but it already had like hundreds of like retweets and stuff. It was, this stuff is out there. You just have to be careful.

• 1:09:53Jason Calacanis?

  Amazing. All right. Let's drop off our guest, Oliver, Jeff. Great job. Where can people find out more about what you're working on?

• 1:10:00Speaker 03

  Yeah, you can on X.com at Jeff Weisbein, which is just my name, one word. And you can also find me at Cackles Club on X as well.

• 1:10:09Jason Calacanis?

  Okay. We will put both of those in the show notes. Oliver, where can we find you?

• 1:10:13Speaker 02

  You can find me at Oliver Henry on X. I post all my Open Claw findings and discoveries on there.

• 1:10:19Jason Calacanis?

  I'm going to do like a little mini launch festival. I vent I used to do that was pretty big, but I'm going to do a little mini one for Open Claw. And some of our other startups, especially the ones from Japan who are in town, March 16th and 17th. That's Monday and Tuesday, March 16th and 17th. So if you made it to this point in the show, uh, we have Open Claw at launch.co. I think I have like 400 seats in the auditorium, 300 seats, and I'm going to just look for maybe 30 demos of Open Claw stuff. And I'm just going to do an old school demo, uh, like a demo or die kind of thing. And the dates will be.

• 1:10:53Speaker 01

  March 16, 17 is the Monday, Tuesday.

• 1:10:56Jason Calacanis?

  Perfect. March 16, 17. I have a, I have a location in San Francisco in the city. And if you want to come, I'm going to sell some tickets to folks and then I'm inviting investors and some founders. If you have a demo, Open Claw at launch.co, if you want to sponsor lunch, Open Claw.

• 1:11:14Speaker 01

  Now, Jason, at the very top of the show, the very top, you said you were building something that is scary and every CEO's dream. Did we touch on that already during the show or do you have yet to show it off?

• 1:11:23Jason Calacanis?

  What I, what I showed there. And so what I think is going to happen is I'm going to have this Altron CEO. Be able to look at everybody's work product and then coach them. And say, hey, here's your day. So we do self-reporting, right? Start a day, end a day. What I've started to realize is like, okay, that's fine. But what if you actually had a coach who was like, here's what you did in the game. Like if you're a basketball player, professional basketball player, when you finish practice, they tell you how you did. They give you all some tape. They give you some notes. When you play the game, they give you a lot of tape, a lot of notes. Hey, you played the game for 36 minutes. Here's your shooting.

• 1:12:06Jason Calacanis?

  Here's the times you took, these are the shots you took that were wide open. Great. Here's how you got wide open. Here are the shots you took that were a challenge that you should have passed. And here's the passes you missed. Here's why you missed them. Right? So they get like really studied, right? And the job of management is to kind of study the team members and say, hey, these are the highest performing ones. These are the lowest. Here's how you can reward the highest, get them into their natural positions and double down on their skillset. Here's the lowest, you need to cut them, or they need to move on to do like some other function at the company. That's starting to happen here in real time. As just but one example, I had, every time we meet with a founder, three

• 1:12:46Jason Calacanis?

  days later, they rate the call. Turned out huge disparity in the top performers and the low performers. And we kind of put things into buckets. Tomatoes and like cheers. Under seven and underscores are tomatoes, and eight and above are cheers, kind of like the net promoter score.

• 1:13:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, I was gonna say.

• 1:13:05Jason Calacanis?

  So now that we're tracking all that, I need to know like, why? What's going on on the phone calls? I need to analyze the phone calls. I need to coach people. But it's very, people get very sad or thrilled if you tell them, hey, like, look at your score, it's not good. They can get freaked out. So now, having a Ultron robot that's just looking, hey, you produced today's show. Here's how the guest did. Here's that number of comments. Hey, this show, these four shows had the most comments. Here's what you need to learn from that. The demos in this show were mind blowing. The demos in this show were solid. The demos in this show were bad, whatever. Boom, it just tells you. This like

• 1:13:47Jason Calacanis?

  self coaching, or this replicant coaching you, and coaching your team members, and holding them accountable, then takes the human out of it, and the bias out of it. Because there's always been, oh, this person's popular. Oh, this person defends their work better than this person defends their work. You know, you always get into that situation where you're in like some meeting, and, oh, you know, I deserve a raise, dah dah dah. I've had people who like, you know, are the squeakiest wheels, who put in half the amount of work as the quiet people. And when I discovered this years ago, I was like, wait a second, I need to have a better way of separating performance from performative, from, you

• 1:14:30Jason Calacanis?

  know, hard work, from, and hard and effective work from, you know, I'm just chilling at the office, but I put in, I punched a lot of hours, but they weren't productive hours, right? So all of that, a replicant.

• 1:14:47Jason Calacanis?

  Taking over that management coaching position should take all that dicey energy out of it, I think.

• 1:14:55Speaker 01

  I think you're right.

• 1:14:56Jason Calacanis?

  Okay, go ahead.

• 1:14:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think you're right, but I think we're still, this is something I was trying to get to in today's show, I don't think I fully nailed it, but like, we are depending on the intelligence of the models in question to be nearly superhuman. Because what you're saying sounds amazing. I would love to get, you know, non-human feedback like, okay, Alex, you said this word eight times in the show, don't do that.

• 1:15:19Jason Calacanis?

  Yeah, you had ums and ahs as a performer.

• 1:15:21Speaker 01

  Sure, sure, absolutely. And it will sting less coming from a robot than from a human that I that I know and have a relationship with. But it's gonna have to know what to look out for. It's gonna have to know to make the decisions, how to be this Ultron CEO. And so that's either gonna be done by increasing an incredible intelligence at the model level, powering these agents, or through increasingly intelligent and specific skills that people who are already experts have imparted their human knowledge into. And so to me, there's two different vectors by which we can get to what you're saying. But we are, we are implying in our enthusiasm, frankly, that both things will improve in tandem. And I think that's right, but I also think there's still a lot more work to be done, especially on the second half of that equation.

• 1:16:03Jason Calacanis?

  Yeah, the skills is kind of like a new concept, I think, for all of us to rock as a business community. We've previously had like, an app, a piece of software that can accomplish things. But if you were trying to get this intangible, like a skill, okay, how do you know somebody has the skill of podcasting? When you look at the ultimate output, but there might be precursors to it, like picking interesting topics, having hot takes, the cadence, the whatever. But you're right, in addition, that like, well, you don't just want people. Spewing conspiracy theories to get a bunch of people retweeting them saying that's a conspiracy theory, right? The incentives do matter. How you train it's going to matter. But brave new

• 1:16:47Jason Calacanis?

  world folks, if you are not using open claw. Listen, I can tell you this feels a lot to me like the beginnings of Bitcoin, which nobody owned, but profoundly changed, I think, a lot of people's fortunes, literal fortunes, and also how we think about currency and just all the things that came downstream from Bitcoin, stable coins, DAOs, everything. Open Claw may not be Bitcoin. Eventually, it could be remembered as like DAOs or something, but it is definitely the start of something. These self, you know, improving replicants that have the keys to the kingdom, that are dangerous to use, but could replace you ultimately and then leave

• 1:17:32Jason Calacanis?

  you with hours a day to go, I don't need to do this reporting anymore. And that was three hours of my job. What could I do with those three hours?

• 1:17:41Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:17:42Jason Calacanis?

  Maybe the four day work week arrives, you know, we have to think about that. Or people are just able to do more human things. This is what I told my team. Learn how to use these things. Get rid of your chores. Increase the amount of FaceTime with founders. We've got bigger issues to think about, which we'll probably talk about on Wednesday's roundtable. The thing I'm thinking about is what's the future of venture capital? What's the future of venture capital in a deflationary period like this? Especially like, do people need large amounts of money? Yeah, to do rockets or cars, sure, or military weapons. But for software, which is 90% of the business, do we need late-stage venture capital? Do we

• 1:18:22Jason Calacanis?

  probably need early-stage and accelerators? But do we need, how much of the rest of the stack is going to be necessary? And how much capital is going to be necessary?

• 1:18:33Speaker 01

  The shift from software is cheap, everyone can make it, you don't need capital, to hardware is hard, now we have to only invest in that because it's what's left, is going to mean a lot of MBAs are going to wish they had PhDs.

• 1:18:44Jason Calacanis?

  Yeah, mechanical engineering, or just how to deal with the real world. Right?

• 1:18:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, where the hype literally touches the world. But we should stop. Jason, as always, a treat.

• 1:18:55Jason Calacanis?

  All right. We'll see you soon. Bye bye.