E149 - Dr. Thema Bryant: Becoming Whole: The Truth About Trauma, Boundaries, and Self-Discovery

Dr. Thema Bryant explores healing trauma, breaking free from people-pleasing, and reclaiming your authentic self. Drawing from her expertise, Dr. Bryant guides us through understanding trauma’s many forms, why we often outsource our sense of self, and how systemic and familial patterns shape our responses. This episode explores practical ways to set boundaries, address emotional suppression, and nurture your unique gifts, while also examining the limitations of talk therapy and the vital role of spirituality in the healing journey. Dr. Bryant offers a roadmap to move beyond survival mode, confront the roots of pain, and embrace the journey toward wholeness and grounded spirituality. Try Pique Life tea and save 20% for life & get a free frother: https://www.piquelife.com/KnowThyself Andrés Book Recs: https://www.knowthyself.one/books ___________ 0:00 Intro 1:29 The Journey to Becoming Whole 3:36 Understanding Trauma & Why Some People Respond Differently 10:15 Stop Outsourcing & Embrace Your Worthiness 16:05 Examining Systemic Issues that Create Trauma 26:22 People Pleasing & Setting Boundaries 33:47 Ad: Pique Life 35:20 How Emotional Suppression Makes You Sick 38:57 Sitting With Emotional Discomfort (& Working Through It) 41:41 Stop 'Keeping the Peace', Find Your Voice 45:23 True Meaning of Grounded Spirituality 48:05 Spiritual Bypassing is a Real Thing 51:14 What It takes to Heal 56:46 Why Talk Therapy Doesn’t Solve All Our Issues 58:33 Spirituality is Essential for Healing 1:02:46 Discovering Your Unique Gifts 1:11:18 Advice for Heart Break 1:15:46 Being the "First" in Your Family 1:20:27 Intelligence of the Heart 1:24:03 Conclusion __________ Episode Resources: http://bit.ly/3SvCUlJ www.drthema.com https://www.instagram.com/andreduqum/ https://www.instagram.com/knowthyself/ https://www.youtube.com/@knowthyselfpodcast https://www.knowthyself.one

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

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• 0:30Speaker 01

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• 0:59Speaker 02

  The emotion isn't the problem necessarily. It's what I do with it. I used to withhold my thoughts or my feelings in order to, I would have said, to keep the peace. And then I had to ask myself, whose peace are you keeping? The cost of a life without boundaries is you have said yes to everyone and no to yourself. It is a vicious cycle that will not stop unless we stop it. When we do the internal work of healing, it's going to have a ripple effect.

• 1:31André Duqum?

  There are a lot of ideas around healing. What have you really seen moves the needle to truly make transformation?

• 1:39Speaker 02

  The world often gives you a feeling like you have to chase worthiness or prove yourself. I would like to remind people that we're worthy. It becomes this radical revolutionary act to decide, even if no one else believes it, I am worthy, that I am sacred, that I am enough.

• 2:03André Duqum?

  Hey, everyone. Welcome back to Know Thyself. Our guest today is a clinical psychologist, a trauma recovery expert, and ordained minister. For decades, she's been helping people recover their voice and dignity after trauma, stepping into full wholeness and empowerment. And I'm so excited to dive in. Dr. Tama Bryant, thank you for being here.

• 2:23Speaker 02

  Oh, thank you for having me. I really appreciate it.

• 2:28André Duqum?

  Do you feel we are fundamentally whole?

• 2:31Speaker 02

  We are fundamentally whole until various experiences fracture us. And so then we learn how to move through life with our fractions. And sometimes the fracturing happens so early that people think that is their true self.

• 2:55André Duqum?

  You have been synthesizing and integrating really beautifully from science and psychology, therapy, and spirituality. In regards to both camps, there's things that often people miss. You know, therapy devoid of spirituality and spirituality devoid of the human developmental characterological stuff. When you say we start out as fundamentally whole, and so much of your work is supporting people returning and remembering back to that place, how do you think of the balance between healing, fixing, versus remembering, returning, and that kind of verbiage?

• 3:28Speaker 02

  Yes. So I think it's easier for people to grab hold of remembering if they recall the age they were when the traumas happened, because then they can think about, like, you know, things were pretty settled or stable, and then at 12, or 15, or 17, or 22, this thing happened. And so then they're like, I'm trying to recover my joy, recover my confidence, like reclaim myself. And then there are those people who have no memory pre-trauma, where, you know, they may have even been born into trauma, the pregnancy was traumatic, events started very early. And so for them, it's harder

• 4:10Speaker 02

  to use the language of remember, because if they think about it in the absolute sense, they're like, I didn't know a me before the catastrophe.

• 4:21André Duqum?

  In that, I think it would be important to actually define a couple of terms. When you say trauma, because it is and it has been more culturally embraced and espoused the past 10 years for sure, how do you define trauma?

• 4:36Speaker 02

  Sure. So there is regular stress or ordinary stress, and then there's traumatic stress. And everyday stress just comes with our roles and responsibilities. It's just a part of life, and usually we know how to navigate that. It's like, you know, I have to do this at work, I have to do this for my family, and I have to deal with LA traffic. And so I just figure out like how to maneuver it. And then a traumatic stress are these overwhelming experiences that exceed my usual capacity to cope. So if I'm not overwhelmed by it, if it doesn't create feelings of a hopelessness or helplessness or powerlessness, then we refer to that as stress.

• 5:18Speaker 02

  So if you get into an argument with a coworker, some people will say, oh, I was traumatized. They really just mean they were stressed. But when we have these overwhelming experiences, that can be a medical event, it can be sexual assault, child abuse, war, natural disasters, a fire, a car accident. When we have these kinds of events, especially if they are long lasting, we can see three major disruptions. So one, it can disrupt your sense of yourself. It's like who I thought I was, and then that gets shattered by the experience, my ability

• 5:59Speaker 02

  to regulate my emotions. So then we see people or we experience ourselves going from like one to 10, right? And sometimes that happening quickly or invisibly, we're like, how did we get here? And the third one is difficulty with trust. So especially when it was an interpersonal trauma, because I mentioned like a natural disaster, it's not really a person. But if you were harmed by a person, then it can be hard to relate and connect with people.

• 6:28André Duqum?

  There is this Sanskrit saying that we come to nirvana by way of samsara, meaning instead of viewing trauma and a lot of the difficulties that we face in our life as a bug of life, in a way, it is a feature of life and the way that we were able to cope with it. Like you spoke to the experiences that have exceeded our ability to be with the experience. And so from that perspective, as Gabramate, who's been on the show, says, trauma is not what happened to you, but what happened within you. And so when you think of how people respond differently to the same external stimulus, somebody it might completely change their personality and traumatize them from an early

• 7:13André Duqum?

  age, and some due to their temperament or whatever reasons, I would love to, you know, get your thoughts on, they use it as a sense of empowerment in a different way, in a different context. So why do different people respond differently?

• 7:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, great question. And I, you know, want to start with the part about, you know, what trauma can lead to. Now, for some people, it can lead to, we call it post-traumatic growth, right? But when we deal with the post-trauma growth, it's important that we credit the person and their resources as opposed to the event, right? Because some people will say things like, I'm glad my parents abused me. It made me who I am today, or it made me strong, or it made me wise. And as you've described, there are many people who have experienced like terrible things and weren't then just like floating in wisdom, right?

• 8:08Speaker 02

  And so there are a couple of different factors that can affect like our recovery to trauma. One of the big predictors is the response we get to our initial disclosure. Disclosure just means sharing. So if you had someone terribly mistreat you, and like, let's say you run, let's say it wasn't your parents, you run home and tell them, and one kid is met with, oh my goodness, we want to protect you, we want to maybe get justice, we want to make sure that you're safe, we want to assure you that you didn't deserve that. That's going to be a very different outcome than that kid runs home and they're like, "Well, why'd you do this?" Or, "Why'd you do that?" And, "That was your fault." Or, "That's not a big deal." Or, "I've been through worse."

• 8:53Speaker 02

  And so, that's a part of why it's important for us to think about not just how the individual makes sense of it, but as a society, as a family, as a community, you know, how do we respond to people being mistreated, right? How do we respond to these harms? So, you know, the, the level of response can be a predictor. Another piece can be repeated trauma, revictimization. So, some people experienced, let's say, a school shooting, and outside of that one day, everything else has felt pretty stable. And, other people,

• 9:33Speaker 02

  it's been like event after event, like multiple traumas, sometimes multiple offenders. And then, you know, we also just have like a nervous system. So, people even show their distress differently, right? Some people, as a way of coping, cope with busyness.

• 9:54André Duqum?

  Overachieving.

• 9:55Speaker 02

  Right? Yeah. And so, that looks very different from the person who can't get out of bed. They've both been affected, but it's, you know, in some ways like by personality, what, what do you grab a hold of? Yeah. And I want to just say, busy is not the same thing as healed. And so, some people are very productive and look very impressive, but are really struggling on the inside.

• 10:19André Duqum?

  Yeah. And I think it's one of those things that many people who may be coping in a way that is societally rewarded and pedestalized, you know, is overachieving or very successful. So many of the affluent individuals and culture are, are deeply wounded and have been acting from that place.

• 10:36Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 10:37André Duqum?

  And I guess the, an area of exploration or distinction here is, a lot of people Would see individuals who are thriving externally and say, that is a life, that is an ideal life, whether it's a sense of freedom or abundance, or whatever they kind of denote as like that lifestyle. And it becomes very culturally pervasive to continue to externalize and outsource our sense of freedom and security and safety into some event happening outside of us, or some relation happening outside of us. And the first principle is a way of kind of bringing this back home instead of seeing the pursuit of happiness

• 11:21André Duqum?

  and the the goal of everlasting peace or fulfillment is on the on the other side of of certain events, kind of collapsing it down and realizing we have the capacity to to source that within ourself. And so, why do you think it's so pervasive to outsource our sense of freedom and safety? And then, let's walk us back home in our ability to to source that ourselves?

• 11:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, great question. So, you know, there's a couple of different pieces that you brought up or that it stirred ideas in me. One of them is we often tune more into what's missing than what's present. So if what's missing for me is resource, then I imagine if I had resources, I would be happy, which is why some people are stunned to discover there are wealthy people who are depressed, right? They're like, you know, why would they, you know, seek out therapy? Or why would they struggle with confidence when they quote unquote have everything? But it's like, but it's not everything.

• 12:25Speaker 02

  But it sure looks like everything if if those are the pieces that are missing. So, you know, we can be tricked by performance or presentation. And especially in this time of social media, we use this term compare despair. You know, it's so easy to say like, oh, look at them. And we're looking at like their curated life, right? It like, it looks well put together. It's well presented or like the matching pajamas. But people are struggling. So we get pulled into the performance and think like, if my picture looked like that, surely I would be joyful. The other piece, which I do think is important.

• 13:09Speaker 02

  In liberation psychology, we talk about the importance of not only looking at the individual, but looking at context. Because if we just put it on the individual, like, then we won't pay attention to the ways in which systems affect people's peace or happiness. And then we'll just say like, it's an inside job. Don't worry about those things. Like, you know, you should just, you know, meditate more. And so it's a both and. And I think, you know, in psychology, we sometimes use like a false dichotomy, right? It's that, you know, is it nature or nurture? Is it environment or internal? And both things contribute, right? So as a society, we want to work to create an atmosphere,

• 13:54Speaker 02

  for example, where things are fair. Fairness decreases distress. If I can feel like some things are safe, reliable, fair. And then I also, while we're working on those larger things, want to do my internal part of what are the ways that I can nourish myself in the midst of this environment?

• 14:14André Duqum?

  What do you wish to remind people about their fundamental wholeness? In essence, of so much of our life is spent, unfortunately, in this like enchanted view of the world that it's going to happen after all these things. And in your own experience and so many people you've helped kind of guide to that place as well, to experience that and to have a reference point for that level of freedom irrespective of external circumstance is the most liberating thing we can taste in our life. And so what do you wish people were reminded of in regards to that?

• 14:46Speaker 02

  I would like to remind people that we're worthy. And instead of, the world often gives you a feeling like you have to chase worthiness, or prove yourself, or obtain certain things to be significant, right? So we're chasing significant validation, worthiness, and it really requires, I'm gonna say, a stretch of faith because we often base our conclusion on evidence, right? So if I have been continuously mistreated, it's hard for me to believe I'm worthy because the idea is if I was worthy, people would treat me better.

• 15:27Speaker 02

  But if everybody keeps treating me this way, like, there must be some truth to it, right? And so it becomes this radical revolutionary act to decide, even if no one else believes it, I am worthy, right? That I am sacred, that I am enough, and I'm gonna treat myself that way. And then I'm going to gravitate toward people and places that treat me like they see the truth of me.

• 15:59André Duqum?

  And that invitation you gave of reclaiming responsibility for our life, I like how you mentioned when it comes to circumstances that we feel we're worthy or inherently not worthy of, there must be a part of us that believes that thing to be true if there's a repeated circumstance that keeps presenting itself in life. And so I think that's why you mentioned how important the context is and to examine the relationships and things that are happening and the patterns that keep showing up in life. Because that's like, it's an external manifestation of a deeper kind of origination. And so I feel like I would love to get your perspective on when people are thinking...

• 16:41André Duqum?

  You know, in what ways am I unknowingly limiting myself? In what ways am I operating through a lens of pain that I've rebranded as, you know, overachieving or whatever it is? I think examining those patterns and like the fruits of certain things can be telling of the source in which they came from. And so, how do you support people, whether or not they're actively looking for, you know, a deeper sense of wholeness or healing? Examine and identify what their core wounds are.

• 17:16Speaker 02

  Right, great. So, I would say it's a both and when we see like repetition, right? So, or it can be either or, it's not always both at the same time. So, I'll give an example for both. If I notice all my relationships are one-sided, like wherever I end up, I'm the strong one. I'm taking care of people. No one's looking out for me. Then I invite people to slow down, to think about ways in which they may be participating and co-creating that cycle, right? So, that may look like when I'm struggling, I disappear, right? Because I don't want to burden anybody.

• 18:00Speaker 02

  But when I sense other people are struggling, I'm there, I'm taking care of them, I'm pouring out. And so, now, once again, we have this one-sided thing because people never see me in need and I always see their needs. And I repeat that in friendship after friendship, I can repeat that at work. At work, I'm like, you know, we call it like I'm easygoing or I'm easy to please. And meanwhile, all of my needs are being neglected, right? So, that's when it's showing up in work, in home, in relationship. But I'm actually creating it or participating or signaling to people, you know, I don't need anything from you, but I'm here to take care of your needs. Right?

• 18:44Speaker 02

  On the other side of things, there can be a cycle of things happening that you are not creating. So, you know, for example, ableism, right? People discriminate against you because of either a physical disability or because of neurodiversity. Like, you're not doing anything to make that happen, but everywhere you go, people are responding to you based on their assumptions and biases. And I just, it's important to make that distinction because sometimes people are like, well, if you just think positive, people will be loving toward you. And it's not quite accurate. Right? Yeah.

• 19:26André Duqum?

  Yeah. No, that, that side of social justice in your work, I think, is really important because we don't talk about those systemic programs as much. I think in the personal development or spiritual growth scene, it can become a little bit solipsistic and all about self. And our wounds are often in relations and our healing is in relations and relations not just within, you know, peer to peer, one person to one person, but systemic, you know, as a whole. It would be good to spend another couple of minutes here just exploring this.

• 20:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 20:01André Duqum?

  So, again, what, what do you wish people understood about, about that?

• 20:06Speaker 02

  Yeah. That it is hurtful when other people don't see you as worthy. And it can also be systemic or it can be societal, meaning you can't just avoid it. Right? I always say, because people usually like the language bias, because bias is like one person. Right? If like, and I always say, if like, one person didn't like black people, then like, I just don't go to their house. Right? You could just say, I'll make other friends. It's not a big deal. But when these issues show up in our educational system. And our legal system, and our banking system, to just apply for a loan, and housing,

• 20:49Speaker 02

  and beauty, and like who gets cast to be like the leading person. It is unavoidable. So then a part of my healing is to be able to see it and to know that it does not define the truth of me, right? Even if, even if other people don't recognize it, I need to know it for myself.

• 21:14André Duqum?

  Understanding that it doesn't define you, and then also becoming a conscious positive agent of change to help rewrite the narrative, which you've done, you know, and you spent a lot of time on. Was there an example of your own personal life where this was, this came up? And I'm curious how you navigated that.

• 21:32Speaker 02

  Right. There have been, you know, multiple. One that comes to mind is when I first became a professor, I won't name the school, but I was, my first time being a professor, and they had a parking lot for faculty members. And the faculty would just go in there and park. They didn't give us a decal or anything. It just was known that that was for us. And every week, when I pulled into the lot, the security would stop me and demand to see my ID. Right? And for those who don't know what's happened, they may just say like, oh, they just were checking, but they're not checking anyone else, right?

• 22:15Speaker 02

  So it sends a message like you don't belong here, like surely, like you can't be a faculty member. We have our idea of what that would look like, and it's not you. And so, you know, there is both, when you have these experiences, your internal caretaking, or we call it like emotion-focused coping, and then problem-solving coping, right? So emotion-focused coping is like what you do to take care of yourself. You know, part of it is like taking my breath, because when I drive up, I know what's about to happen, right? So I just slow down before I pull up. Take my breath and, and I know it is coming, right?

• 22:56Speaker 02

  And so, you know, reminding myself, we say like of affirmation, of my worthiness, of my efforts, of my, and then social support, you know? Who are the people who I can park my car and like call my best friend and say, yep, right? It happened again. So having that level of support is important. And then another part is, as you said, being like an agent of change, right? Because even if I say, I'm just gonna deal with it, there are faculty members who will be coming after me, right? And do I think that this should continue to happen to them, right?

• 23:38Speaker 02

  So then I speak to those persons who are in charge, who are shocked and stunned, because nobody checks that lot. And I'm like, oh, yes, they've been checking every week, right? For, for certain people, and so far, like, I'm the only one.

• 23:53Speaker 02

  And so that's an important piece to think about, say strategically, how you want to respond. And one, I want to say to people, if you don't have like some great well-together response the first time, to also give yourself grace, because you don't often see these things coming. You're just driving along and I'm more thinking about like, what's my lecture gonna be? And so then you have these moments where you're like taken aback and have to say, you know, what, you know, what are the possibilities? Because sometimes we feel powerless or hopeless, like there's nothing I can do. And there's many possibilities, whether it's addressing it with the security guards,

• 24:38Speaker 02

  addressing it with the people who are over them, talking to other faculty members, going deeper than that to talk about training. And so I would say, for me, most of the time, it's a both and, meaning nourish myself and try to see if I can be a part of changing what is problematic.

• 24:59André Duqum?

  I think that's really helpful, I'm sure for everybody who's listening right now. Whatever experience we have where somebody judges us bases of, based off our class or race or ethnicity or whatever it is. I'm curious on how you navigate your own personal trigger around things, but then also bring self compassion to the process because it's not something that everyone has to deal with equally, of course.

• 25:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 25:23André Duqum?

  And so that could obviously bring up a lot.

• 25:25Speaker 02

  Yes, absolutely. It's the emotional labor. So it's like, I haven't even started teaching yet and I'm having to like either teach or take care of myself. So there's definitely extra labor involved. A part of it, we talk about like our socialization process, which is preparation. So it helps if you have parents who talk about these things. Some parents avoid these conversations because they're like, I just want them to be confident and go out there and conquer the world. But when they don't have any language or understanding for what they're experiencing, often they would just think like, it's something wrong with me, like individually, and not

• 26:06Speaker 02

  have a literacy, a way of like reading the room, of reading what's happening and not internalizing it. And, you know, some people will, you know, have to learn it. So even if you didn't get that like exposure or those lessons growing up from your family, and it's, it's different in different spaces. Like, you know, what does that mean in the workplace? What does that mean in my neighborhood? What does that mean in navigating interactions with the police? And so, yeah, that process is important. And, you know, a part of what I have done is not just like reactionary when something happens to me, but thinking about it in terms of addressing systems.

• 26:51Speaker 02

  And so a lot of my work, as you mentioned, is with trauma survivors. So I've worked with victims of violence and will often do trainings at hospitals and also with judges and lawyers about the ways these, we say biases or isms can affect us seeing or not seeing people as victims. Right?

• 27:17André Duqum?

  As it relates to the differences between the self-work and the relational work, I would just love to examine a couple of their common patterns that people are going to face and tools to be able to support them. I feel like a pervasive one is that people-pleaser energy, where it's become normalized to sacrifice our own needs and not get from a full place repeatedly, and people that expect that from us also. And so, what comes up for you around what people need to know about how people pleasing actually isn't serving in the way we think it is? And the importance of boundaries and saying no?

• 27:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, so important. And I can definitely, I'll say, testify to this. You know, often we start people-pleasing. It can be for safety or to be liked, right? That socially, people reward those who like bend over backwards for them, right? The friend that we call it going the extra mile, but then never requires that back, right? That gets reinforced, or at work, the person who volunteers for all the extra tasks. Like, "I'll stay late, I'll be on the fourth committee, I'll do all..." And it's like, "No additional compensation, no, no, no, I'll just do it," right? So then, you know, they might make you employee of the month.

• 28:37Speaker 02

  Or say like, "You're the best friend ever," or "The greatest daughter ever." But we have to say like, "At what cost?" So, one is the cost of self-abandonment, self-neglect, self-erasure, where we're exhausted and dissatisfied. At some point, we can also get resentful. So like, everyone else is pleased with this arrangement, but physically, emotionally, maybe even spiritually and financially, it's chipping away at us. And then I would say, you know, along with it, wearing down your own health and well-being, it also stops the possibility of genuine intimacy.

• 29:19Speaker 02

  Right? Because if I will never reveal to you like my hurts or my fears or my needs, then I'm not presenting a self for you to relate to. Right? I'm just being a provider of your needs, right? So if and trauma survivors often study situations and study people to figure out what is required of me because they're thinking if I do the right thing, I'll be safe. Right? But that's not relationship. It's, you know, it's performance.

• 29:59André Duqum?

  I think of how much we all deeply crave that sense of intimacy. And perhaps because we are fundamentally one at that level where we are our whole and our nature is to give and whatnot. And yet, at times, operating from these deeper ways in which we've coped it to feel safe. And a lot of times, that's like, okay with sacrificing your own needs and playing small so that it doesn't make other people feel small, you know? And I feel like on this journey of returning to our wholeness, awakening to our true self,

• 30:34André Duqum?

  inherently, there is relational things and events that that need to change externally. And people will expect you to show up as you have it as a prior version of yourself. And so how how do you relate to that change of environment and her and an atmosphere as you're doing your own growth?

• 30:55Speaker 02

  Yeah. Oh, that's great. And it's so true that when we do the internal work of healing, it's gonna it's gonna have a ripple effect. Right? If before I was kind of like a doormat or had no opinions and everyone was like, oh, you're amazing because you would just echo back what they want to hear. And then suddenly you start, you come to an age or an experience where you want to like, live in truth. And you so you start expressing those things. People may say like, you changed. Right? Or you start telling people no, and you used to say yes to everything. Ah, you know, people will be angry, frustrated, confused. You know, why, why are you doing this?

• 31:38Speaker 02

  It's like, you know, the grandparent who would always watch the kids and is now like, I would have spent some of my retirement time, you know, doing my hobbies or traveling, right? To not assume that I'm gonna always be here. And they'll say, oh, my God, how selfish. You're so terrible. So there is that adjustment period. And I would say, you know, if it comes to us and we recognize like the change, it can be helpful to communicate it, right? You know, to say like with that example, oh, I know before I was like always home and you could just drop them anytime and, you know, plan things without checking in. But I'm trying to do some more things now. Like I've been neglecting myself.

• 32:21Speaker 02

  So I'll need you to like ask me in advance to make sure I'll be free. You know, so we can, you know, announce the transformation.

• 32:29André Duqum?

  Yeah. A lot of us, though, associate setting boundaries with a sense of abandonment.

• 32:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 32:35André Duqum?

  You know?

• 32:35Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 32:36André Duqum?

  Do you see the path forward in that regard is just practicing that? Or how do you?

• 32:42Speaker 02

  I would say at first, practice it with people who are more open. Right? Because we, we can all think of like the people in our lives who it's easier to say no to and who it's harder. And when you're first starting, because you're already battling with those feelings of guilt, don't start with the hardest one. Like you need some wins to discover. Like if you have a good friend and you feel like if I say, you know, actually this weekend, I don't feel like going out. I know I said I would, but I'm exhausted. You have some friends who'll be like, oh, get some rest. That's, you know, we'll catch it next time. And then you're like, you know, the world didn't fall apart. They didn't stop being my friend. Like they didn't attack me. And, and I set a boundary to take care of myself, right?

• 33:25Speaker 02

  Um, and so the, the practice helps. And then I would also encourage people uh, to try not to over explain. Because the more I'm over explaining, one, I'm queuing to people that I'm not really settled in my answer. So then people will start trying to like, talk you out of it. Um, of like, oh, you could do that later, or just come on, or, you know. So when you said it, you want to stand by it, right? You want to enforce it, so that accountability to yourself.

• 33:59André Duqum?

  What's the cost of not doing that?

• 34:01Speaker 02

  The cost of a life without boundaries is you have said yes to everyone and no to yourself. So your peace is disrupted, your sleep is disrupted, your appetite may be disrupted, your health is worn down. You've given away all of your financial resources and, and to things you, that you couldn't afford. It's beyond generosity. And you have reinforced a cycle, because, you know, people who are asking are never gonna stop, right? Now they get the cue of like, whatever I want, you're gonna do. Uh, and so it is a vicious cycle that will not stop unless we stop it.

• 34:47André Duqum?

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• 35:29André Duqum?

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• 36:09André Duqum?

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• 36:21André Duqum?

  Beyond even people pleasing, what's the link between continued emotional suppression and physiological dysfunction?

• 36:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, when we suppress our emotions, it can literally make us sick. We see suppressed anger and autoimmune disease, particularly among women.

• 36:42Speaker 02

  We, you know, it can exhaust our, our body's ability to fight against infection or disease. Because we are using so much of our energy, right, to suppress. The other thing that, you know, it can disrupt our sleep, our digestive system. Sometimes the suppression can connect with our reproductive system.

• 37:08Speaker 02

  We also have what we call somatic complaints. So soma is the body. And so when you have body aches for which doctors can find no medical explanation. So, you know, what does that look like is when we're feeling stressed, nauseous, migraines, backache. We have a lot of backache. A lot of people, right, are struggling with these backs. And you try to figure like, what is it we're carrying, right? Or what is it we're trying to contain, right, or suppress? So it definitely can affect our, our physical and our mental health. And I would like to say. You know, let people love you, right?

• 37:51Speaker 02

  I'm not letting people love me if I'm not letting people in, right? And I'm also denying that love and care to myself. You know, you can tell, let's say someone's telling you a story and they're all worked up. And you're like, oh, wow, that was really upsetting. And they're like, I'm not mad. It's like, I think you are. I think you are. So that is a lot of work to live in denial. Instead of being able to like, express it. So, you know, the emotion isn't the problem necessarily. It's what I do with it, right? So for example, constructive anger versus destructive anger. So, you know, a lot of people who work to make things better are upset about the way things are.

• 38:36Speaker 02

  And then they say like, we're gonna create a neighborhood watch program. Or we're gonna like, go to city council and try to get some policy or something. Or get funding for something. So positive change can come by the fact that you say this is upsetting, or it's not fair. Or I don't like it. You know, the destructive anger is, I'm upset about it. So like, I'm gonna harm myself. I'm gonna harm other people. I'm gonna like, start doing that, what was done to me, to others. So you wanna ask yourself, not only, one, do I give myself permission to feel it? I'm a human being, I feel. And then, you know, what are ways that I express it? What do I do with that feeling?

• 39:20Speaker 02

  Like when we talk about alchemizing it. You know, I might take those emotions and put them into a poem. I might put it into the music. I may take that, those emotions, and then, you know, alchemize it into gratitude for the spaces and people that don't do those things, right? We take it, we can appreciate it more because we know what it's like when it's the other way.

• 39:46André Duqum?

  Yeah, again, that's a gift of going through difficulty is the amount of compassion and empathy it unlocks within us for others and continued experience of that in the future. As somebody who's so focused and spent so much time supporting people with pretty dense, overt, traumatic experiences, I'm curious what you think about this. We spoke about the repression of emotions. I think it's really fascinating how we can spend so much of our energy, mental, physiological energy, just being in resistance to feeling something that maybe just needs to be felt for a few minutes. And how that saps, it's a dull pain of unconsciousness, but it slowly saps us of our energy and

• 40:31André Duqum?

  we don't realize it unless we have that experience and reference point for wholeness. And so when you're supporting people approaching this sharp pain of self-awareness that is more of like a Band-Aid rip, but when you focus on it and you address it, there's that saying, "Our job is not to feel good, but to get good at feeling." And so, what are your thoughts around the simple act, which can feel not so simple at various times, of addressing and attending to these parts of ourself that otherwise are going to sap our energy in ways we're unbeknownst to for much longer than they need to?

• 41:11Speaker 02

  Yes, great question. And I think we've done a poor job of letting people know what to expect. So when we say healing, people are thinking, "Oh, yes, I'm healing."

• 41:24André Duqum?

  Puppies and rainbows.

• 41:26Speaker 02

  Right, oh yeah, it's gonna be wonderful, I'm healing. Healing can be uncomfortable because, as you talked about, like the Band-Aid removal, the Band-Aid has been maybe the false stories or these habits that I have, or these negative automatic thoughts. And so... You know, to, it's growing pains, right? To grow out of what is familiar. And we have to be clear, doing it another way is unfamiliar. Right? So to stretch, to grow, it's gonna not only feel unfamiliar, it might feel fake. I've had people who say that, let's say, people who didn't grow up in a, an expressive,

• 42:10Speaker 02

  loving household. And now you're trying to encourage them to like affirm their kids. And they're like, that feels fake. It's like, well, do you love them? Because like, if you love them, it's not fake. You're just not used to saying it. But initially, yeah, it'll feel like, you know, who is this person? Or like, uh, like, it doesn't feel like me. Well, it doesn't feel like the old you, right? But as we repeat it over time, the next thing you know, I'm like this verbally loving parent.

• 42:40André Duqum?

  You have a great line around, like, uh, for those that are silent about traum- traumatic experiences and the realization of whose peace that's keeping. I would love for you to share that.

• 42:52Speaker 02

  Yeah. So I used to withhold my thoughts or my feelings in order to, I would have said, to keep the peace, right? I didn't want to upset things. I didn't want to rock the boat. And then I had to ask myself, whose peace are you keeping? Because the person who has done harmful things, they're at peace. Like, no one has held them accountable. No one is saying anything. They're going through life very easy. And so then I had to realize, I'm holding all the distress. And people who are doing harmful things are like going about with ease.

• 43:37Speaker 02

  And so I no longer want to hold it. I no longer want to give up my peace for someone else's peace. Because it's not for the greater good, right? I am supporting.

• 43:54Speaker 02

  Something that really needs to be dismantled. And I will say it requires releasing your fear of abandonment and rejection. Right? Because that's some of the reason why we don't say things is like, well, if I say something and they get upset, they're going to leave me, right? Or they're going to reject me, or they're not going to like me. But getting to a place where I authentically require truth. Right? So that's all like, I only want authentic relationships. I only want authentic conversations. I, I want to be in spaces where truth is spoken.

• 44:36Speaker 02

  And if I speak the truth and someone doesn't like me for it or rejects me for it, then that's a gift. Because we've been in this false thing, right? We've been in a relationship that was based on my silence, not based on my truth. So let, and not just me, of course, for everybody to be able to speak theirs. And then we can actually know each other and decide, are these people that you want to keep up close in your life?

• 45:07André Duqum?

  And it requires courage at so many times. And I think we have this Hollywood romanticized version of a heroic sort of courage. But courage is only really courage when it's, there is, you're facing vulnerability, you know? And when you feel like you're actually putting something on the line, whether it's a perceived sense of self or a relationship or whatever. And it's freeing to let go and have, and have faith that what's meant for me will be mine and what's not meant for me will go. Which, again, isn't always puppies in rainbows. It's difficult at first, but ultimately, I think the story ends well.

• 45:42Speaker 02

  Yes, it does. And to say to yourself, it's like, even, you know, if this means a season of solitude, I'll take it to be living in truth instead of being surrounded by people who don't really accept me. They like my performance. Mm hmm. It's like, find your, your real people. There are people who are like you, right? It's like if we're hiding our spiritual selves because we think like, oh, this circle of people thinks spirituality is whatever. It's like, yeah, let them go ahead. And I, there's like-minded people who I can connect with.

• 46:21André Duqum?

  I feel like there is this, there's often this view of spirituality as sort of an inert, docile, meditative person somewhere off in a cave. And this spirituality as a lived experience and lived reality relationally is a lot more like fire and burning away the impurities internally.

• 46:42Speaker 02

  Love that.

• 46:43André Duqum?

  And like a flame, it illuminates darkness where it goes, right? And so I see, especially in your talks and like in ministry, like you are very passionate and you bring that like force and light and fire of spirit. And so, yeah, I would just love to like hear, like hear how you, I guess, relate to that and the importance and how you view that.

• 47:05Speaker 02

  Yeah. I would say, you know, our spirituality, you know, we want to ground ourselves so that then we can live, right? If the grounding is just to stay in a permanent place of disconnection from others and from the world, then it's more like escapism, right? But, you know, I used to say like our greatest, I said, whether a sermon or a testimony is like how we live and how we treat others, right? And so it doesn't matter if people say like, I believe this, I believe that. Like, how does that show up in life?

• 47:50Speaker 02

  Like, if you, if you couldn't tell me that, if all I could do was watch you, then like, does that feel like it is real or like it is true? And sometimes we're engaging in these practices, but there's been no transformation. You know, people are like, I like, I couldn't forget her name, maybe I don't want to say it wrong. It's a stand-up comedian, an Indian woman on Instagram. And she says, talks about how like, America has taken over yoga, made it like an industry. And she says, you know, I see all these people with their yoga mats running around. And she says, if you're running to yoga, rushing to yoga, you're doing it wrong. Right?

• 48:34Speaker 02

  And so I think about that in terms of people who are, whether it's attending services or meditating or praying or journaling, but like, nothing is.

• 48:46Speaker 02

  Nothing is shifting you, right? Then, you know, I don't want to say you're doing it wrong, but it is meant to transform us so that then we can live in a certain way and like live out those values.

• 49:04André Duqum?

  Yeah, it's something I feel like I'm in conversation around quite frequently on this podcast or within my friend groups of, you know, even on this podcast where we talk about a lot of great concepts and insights that can support people. And if it stays as a sort of intellectual insight,

• 49:22André Duqum?

  as they say, the proof is in the pudding. So if you're not putting it into action in your life, you know, your beliefs and what you proclaim, you know, it's not what you verbally say, but actually how you live and you put into practice. Because there are a lot of people who know a lot of great spiritual quotes.

• 49:37Speaker 02

  Can quote it, yeah.

• 49:41André Duqum?

  You know, are acting in very wounded ways relationally and very dysregulated in their day to day life. And so as you've been in this work and you have also this unique balance of being in many different worlds and the therapeutic and psychological side of things, as well as the deeper spiritual or contemplative space. What do you think about spiritual bypassing?

• 50:05Speaker 02

  It is pervasive and easy to come to. So, you know, for those who are, if they watch your podcast, they already know. But for those who maybe haven't heard the term, people who utilize their spirituality as a cover to not address real issues, both within themselves and like in the larger world. And, you know, one thing that comes to mind is, you know, talking to someone and she got a parking ticket and I was, and I saw her after she got the ticket. And she goes, you know, ah, the devil's busy. And I'm like, oh, what happened? Got this parking ticket.

• 50:50Speaker 02

  So I said, uh, where'd you park?

• 50:56Speaker 02

  Right, like, we could make this into spiritual warfare, or we could say, like, you parked in the red zone.

• 51:03Speaker 02

  So we gotta, you know, have room for, we're here in the present where there are rules and guidelines.

• 51:11André Duqum?

  Yeah, yeah. Spiritual verbiage and the clothing and the quotes and the way of kind of, you know, verbally relating to the world. It can become just another way to actually avoid facing things as they are.

• 51:28Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 51:29André Duqum?

  Like, our ego and our mind is so slippery and tricky and we'll use anything.

• 51:33Speaker 02

  Yes, well, yeah, we'll use it for our purposes, for our cover. You know, even when there's only room for gratitude. You know, I've talked to people, and again, dealing with trauma, but, you know, may have traumatic grief, where if someone says, like, oh, like, they're missing their loved one who died, and someone with a spiritual bypassing will say, you should be grateful that you had them as long as you had them. It's like, are you kidding? Like, where is your compassion? It's, yeah, yeah, you should be grateful.

• 52:06André Duqum?

  Yeah. One of the last kind of notes on on trauma is continuing to ground this in for people. For for those that want to dive a little bit deeper into exploring

• 52:18André Duqum?

  how they can, you know, individually come into wholeness. Like, you spoke, and it's been a golden thread throughout much of this podcast of, by filling up your own cup, by coming and returning to wholeness, you lay the foundation for truly being of service in a way that is empowering for for the world. There are a lot of ideas around healing and and and moving beyond their trauma or facing it. And I'm curious, as somebody who's worked with people hand in hand for so long, what have you really seen moves the needle? And whoever's listening right now, what direct actions can they take to to to truly make transformation?

• 52:56Speaker 02

  Right, great question. And I think one of the things to recognize is with post-traumatic growth, it gets described as the fact that growth and despair can coexist. And that's important to name because sometimes people have this false notion of like, when I'm recovered, right, or when I'm healed, I'll never be triggered by anything, I'll, you know, never lose a night of sleep. Like, everything is just gonna flow easily. And so, you know, we're layered people. So I may see my growth in one area and another area I'm still struggling with and working on.

• 53:38Speaker 02

  Different things come easier to us, or we have more opportunities to to practice it out. So I would first start with giving yourself grace for that the struggle does not erase the fact that you may have grown, right? And then, you know, it's about getting to see where the trauma is showing up for me. Because as we were saying in the beginning, for some people, it may be camouflaged in their busyness. So then you're thinking, I have nothing to work on, I'm great. Like, I'm not like these folks, or whatever I've looked down on in terms of a coping strategy. So to connect the dots with what are the things that I'm doing

• 54:23Speaker 02

  that are still out of my wounded place? Because I have to see it so that I can work through it, right? And then we talk about in your present circumstance, trying to create an environment where you can bloom. Because if I did experience trauma, but I continue to spend most of my time with people or in places that are not really safe physically or emotionally, it's gonna be hard for me to heal because everything in my nervous system is telling me, be on guard, fight, flee, you know, freeze, all those things. So I can help facilitate my growth.

• 55:09Speaker 02

  And like what I am choosing now, right? I choose to be in the presence of more peaceful people, right? I choose to have friendships with people who know how to work through conflict without it being an attack or, you know, becoming an eruption. So making choices in my present can be a part of it. And then the combination of self-care and community care. So how do I pour into myself? And how do I have reciprocal, mutual relationships? And then, you know, preparing for the triggers, right? Recognizing what are the things that like set me off?

• 55:54Speaker 02

  And instead of just accepting them of like, oh, that's just me. People have to deal with it. Then instead to say, you know, maybe I don't do well with dealing with people in authority or people who have power. Or if I feel rejected, then I become rageful. Right? So I have to see those cycles. And then if I see something coming that may be, you know, similar to that, to give myself like the reminder to make a different choice. Because often what happens is we feel backed in a corner and think all I can do is like this dysfunctional or toxic or unhealthy response. You know, it's like, you know, well, I had to yell and throw things at my kids

• 56:39Speaker 02

  because that's the only way they're going to learn. And it's like, is it, right? Is it really the only way? Which also means for some of us having to learn another way, you know? But not all of us ever got to see that you could handle a disagreement differently. Right? So being open to learning and giving ourselves grace. Because sometimes what happens, if we mess up or go back to our old ways, we surrender. And it's like that I want to prevent the relapse. But when it happens to say, okay, getting back in my process.

• 57:18André Duqum?

  Yeah, it really seems like there is both experiences in our past that

• 57:25André Duqum?

  Happen that we're beyond our capacity to be with, but then also the experiences that we didn't get enough of. And so the, the healing journey then isn't just seen as it often is of the reconciliation of, of past events, but also the rebuilding of a scaffolding and, and new skillsets and, and in reparenting. When you think about that and how therapy again has grown a lot in, in culture and society, which has great, and I think that any act in, in a sense that's in the direction of self-love is, is worthwhile. Yet where does talk therapy in particular fail short? Because a lot of these things in terms of true transformation is in the soma,

• 58:10André Duqum?

  like you mentioned earlier. And therapy, that's not great therapy can become venting and further patterning our perceived problems.

• 58:20Speaker 02

  Yeah. The trauma affects our bodies. And it is like we are the site of the trauma. And so to leave this out of it, to leave the body out of it, it's going to be incomplete. So a lot of it is focused on shifting your thoughts, trying to shift your emotions, shifting your behavior. All those things are important, but when we ignore people's spirituality, which for many people is the way they see the world and make meaning of the world. So if we say, no, no, no, can't talk about that. And no mention of embodied healing, right?

• 59:04Speaker 02

  How do I come home to myself? Then we're going to miss it. Now, will, will people get some things out of those? Sure. But it's a incomplete healing, a fractured, a fraction healing, half healing.

• 59:21André Duqum?

  Yeah. Hey, which is better than nothing.

• 59:24Speaker 02

  Right, yes. It's good you win. And now seek out those places where your body and your spirit will also be welcomed.

• 59:33André Duqum?

  Where do you, how do you distinct, I guess, the spirituality side of these things? And I think this is just a nice transition generally towards as one sinks back deeper into themselves, there are both these latent faculties, sensitivities to intuitions, access to the guidance from our heart that become available to us. That is an incredible place to live life from. And so as you support people with the healing journey and then waking up to their true power,

• 1:00:07André Duqum?

  I would love for you to share what becomes available as you go deeper on this path.

• 1:00:11Speaker 02

  Yeah. So, you know, the first thing I'll mention is, yeah, when I'm doing classes with future therapists, I talk about the importance of moving beyond symptom cessation. So symptom cessation is basically when we focus all the therapy on the ways you're showing your distress and we want to decrease those, right? So if someone is cutting or self harming, we want to decrease that. Emotional eating, we want to decrease that. Thoughts of suicide, we want to decrease that. And all those things are important, but you can have a decrease in

• 1:00:51Speaker 02

  depression and still have no joy, right? You might have less panic attacks and still no sense of purpose. So, yes, we want to try to bring down the distress, but then people can start the work of like, living, right?

• 1:01:07André Duqum?

  Crazy idea.

• 1:01:09Speaker 02

  Isn't that something, right? Like, we're not done yet, okay? Like, we finally got to a place where you're grounded enough where you can consider how you want to live, right, and who you are. So whether people call that positive psychology or spiritual psychology, but yeah, we don't want to neglect the growth and the thriving and like, the fullness of life. And a part of, you know, the fullness of life is also us being able to see the sacred, you know, in ourselves and in others. And to be tuned into, you know, you were talking about whether we call those spiritual gifts, those abilities that when we are...

• 1:01:55Speaker 02

  Being led by our wound, we can't connect to it. Like, we're perpetually triggered. But, you know, once I'm set up within myself, I can, you know, everything is different. I breathe different, I see, I move different, I hold my body differently, I show up to intimacy differently, because then there's that freedom.

• 1:02:18André Duqum?

  What else?

• 1:02:19Speaker 02

  Yeah. So, you know, it's important to think about our spiritual, not only gifts, but in terms of our spiritual practices and what can also be spiritual community. I think some people are good with doing like their internal or individual practice, which is good. And we can also grow in communities with other people who have made this a priority, right? That we can learn from each other, that we can grow in that way. And so to consider, you know, what's my soul food? You know, what are the things that feed my spirit? Who are the people that feed my spirit?

• 1:03:03Speaker 02

  What books feed my spirit? What gathering spaces feed my spirit? So that I can, you know, live fully and more freely.

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• 1:04:14André Duqum?

  It's very fascinating to me, the individuation of uniqueness on this planet as it expresses within all life, but particularly humans, and how we all have these, for various different factors, through life experience, genetic, and maybe you have some ideas of spiritual past lives, or whatever it is, that we have unique gifts that are very distinct in our capacities to show up in life. And I'm curious about

• 1:04:44André Duqum?

  becoming a leader in this new paradigm and how it expresses through us each differently. So what do you feel like comes online? And how do you begin to nurture that aspect of yourself that isn't just the healing and repression of bad systems and cessation of that, but the uplifting of a life well-lived?

• 1:05:02Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm. I think our unique gifts are the ones that come to us often naturally. We can sharpen them, and it is important to grow in them. But it's often the things we take for granted. Like, you don't realize that not everyone has that. You go into a room, and there's a lot happening, and you see some things that not everybody saw, right? So our ability to tune into things, it may be particular gifts, but it also can be, some of us are gifted or graced for certain populations, right? That, you know,

• 1:05:47Speaker 02

  some people are wonderful with children. Like, you're not doing anything. It's just like who you are, and they gravitate toward you, and you have... Some people have such a gifting for elders. And it's a reciprocal piece, where they feel fulfilled by it and nourished by it. And so noticing both your gifts and to who or for what do you feel that resonating? And to get...

• 1:06:23Speaker 02

  One of the things is, you know, there's a scripture that says, "When you get in the presence of prophets, you will prophesy." Right? So sometimes it's, you know, our, we've been in environments that haven't facilitated the gifts coming forward. And so being in a place where your various gifts are welcomed, or where there are people present who operate in those gifts, can stir that up for you. Yeah.

• 1:06:53André Duqum?

  It's amazing what opens up as you go on that process, you know? Also scripturally, in various ways, it talks about how, like, you will not receive what's not given. And how in the act of giving, which is, you know, you look at nature and how there is a reciprocity inherent within all life. When we stop ourselves from that flow, we stop our capacity to receive as well. And so it's amazing what shows up on the journey. And I'm sure you felt that in your path as well. When you start to give and show up and follow that inclination of what you feel called towards, then all these amazing things show up spontaneously.

• 1:07:35Speaker 02

  Yes, definitely. It's so beautiful. I like to say, release to receive. And sometimes we're like clinging on to things that are not for us, chasing things that are not for us. I like, open my hands, open my heart, and give. It puts me in a posture of like more readiness, right? So to not operate in that scarcity, where in the scarcity, yeah, I'm being selfish, I'm being competitive, I'm being driven by fear, versus like that saying, "The sky is big enough for all the stars to shine," right? Which then makes me excited when I'm in the presence of gifted people, right?

• 1:08:19Speaker 02

  It's not a threatened or a competition, like, oh, this is wonderful. Like, this person is like flowing in their gift, like, living out their purpose, and that's contagious, right?

• 1:08:31André Duqum?

  Yeah, I think it only feels threatening when you're operating as a copycat of someone else.

• 1:08:37Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:08:38André Duqum?

  Because you'll never be as good as somebody else if you're trying to do that, right?

• 1:08:42Speaker 02

  That's right, that's right.

• 1:08:44André Duqum?

  Yeah, but when you, when you discover your own uniqueness, there is... There's maybe textures where you could compare with other people, but as a whole, you're, you know.

• 1:08:53Speaker 02

  It's, it's you, it's the unique self. And I tell people like, that's your special sauce is you. So if you've been like diluting the special sauce, right? Like bring yourself through it. Even, you know, our students who are training to become therapists. I'm like, yes, learn the theories, learn these interventions, but then you have to let them come out of you. Cause people are, you know, one of the biggest predictors of the effectiveness of therapy is the therapeutic relationship. Right? So when people feel connected to you, you know, you do a number of different interventions, but they're trusting you and trusting the process. So then we can have some fruitfulness.

• 1:09:34André Duqum?

  How would you describe your unique special sauce? Like, what do you feel like that is?

• 1:09:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, I would say I am a healer who is healing and who has healed. So the truth of that, like my, going back to our earlier conversation, my heartbreak has made me tuned in to heartbreak. I can see it and I can feel it, right? Because I know what it's like to be in a space where you're not breathing. I recognize when people aren't breathing, right? And so me bringing my full self into the place, you know, the wounds and the wins, right?

• 1:10:23Speaker 02

  I think creates a special sauce.

• 1:10:27André Duqum?

  I took an extra deep breath when you said that. Am I breathing?

• 1:10:30Speaker 02

  Yes, we, sometimes it's just like, yeah.

• 1:10:36André Duqum?

  Yeah, that, that really is a beautiful full circle to where we started where, of course, it doesn't feel like it often in the moment, but in hindsight, our challenges, traumatic experiences.

• 1:10:49André Duqum?

  Some might say there is a divine design in what it unlocks in our capacity to show up for others and.

• 1:10:57André Duqum?

  That was a really graceful way of sharing that for you because it's your lived experience is your unique special sauce.

• 1:11:03Speaker 02

  Right, right.

• 1:11:04André Duqum?

  It's what makes you you, no one else has that.

• 1:11:06Speaker 02

  That's right. Versus, I think usually we think like, those are things I need to hide about myself, or those are barriers to me being. And it's like, no, that's a part of the making of you.

• 1:11:19André Duqum?

  I've experienced that definitely even like in this podcast, certain relationships in the past where the perception was by presenting the best version of yourself, you'll be able to connect with others the most directly. And it sometimes works for a while or appears to as if it does. But the real intimacy is actually honoring your vulnerabilities and like that is what actually connects with people.

• 1:11:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:11:47André Duqum?

  And so it's a really good note to hone in on is like embracing those aspects.

• 1:11:51Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:11:52André Duqum?

  You don't want those relationships that don't want the real you anyways. You want those authentic connections.

• 1:11:57Speaker 02

  Yeah. It's so true. I, you know, think about that in terms of like the humility, but also being relatable. So I have two kids and my daughter was kind of like a mini me. And, you know, she follows directions. She does what she's supposed to do. I could take her to faculty meetings. She would like sit in a stroller. You know, people are like, what is she doing? So, but when, when I only had her, I would say I wasn't arrogant parent. I would be like, just talk to your kids, right? That's all you have to do. Like just tell them to settle down. And then I had my son who's like a firecracker. And I say like, it humbled me. Like you could say, sit down. Sit down.

• 1:12:41Speaker 02

  And so then that, so then when I talk about parenting, it's like, you know, I don't have it all figured out. Like it's not perfect. It's not just all with ease, right? You know, there are struggles there and you gotta, you know, figure out their personality and all of these things. Then it opens people up as opposed to like the, you know, I know the formula and all you have to do is the formula. It's like, yeah, no, this is our human journey. We're all, what they say, all walking each other home.

• 1:13:10André Duqum?

  Absolutely.

• 1:13:12André Duqum?

  Absolutely. You mentioned your own personal heartbreak. I'm curious, in hindsight now, as it's easier to connect those dots, what do you think she would have, would have been supportive for her to hear? And as it pertains to people that are listening that maybe are going through their own versions of struggle or heartbreak, heartache, yeah, with that lens, looking back, what would have really supported you?

• 1:13:34Speaker 02

  Well, a big one is it gets better. It gets, because in the moment, you feel like you can't see beyond the moment, right? It's just like, like, this is a disaster and like, everything going forward is gonna be ruined. Right? And so that it gets better, you get better. You're deserving of good things. You're worthy of peace and you can have it. Yeah. Yeah, that's true. It's true. So the grand, you know, in my community, the grandparents, older folks would say, keep on living. Right? Keep on living, you'll see. Yeah.

• 1:14:16André Duqum?

  They got, they got the experience that it works out.

• 1:14:19Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:14:20André Duqum?

  Yeah. And it feels like one of the common themes of regret in hospice care and elderly homes is the lack of faith throughout their life and the sorrow they experience of things maybe not working out, realizing that, okay, it did and I wasted time for joy, you know?

• 1:14:43Speaker 02

  Right, stressed out and worried about things. And I'll say, it doesn't always look the way you imagined it was gonna look. So the working out doesn't mean like, because you know, at 20, we have an idea of like, I'm gonna do this at 25 and this at 28 and you know, we have it all mapped out. So it may not look like that, but that we say like, in the fullness of time, that you'll be at home, you can be at home with yourself. Yeah.

• 1:15:09André Duqum?

  It's so liberating, too, to see how life, you want life to unfold greater than you can actually plan and, you know, project. Because otherwise, it'd be super boring. And so that element of surprise and awe is amazing to integrate. I've heard you quote, which I also really loved that quote from Howard Thurman.

• 1:15:30Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:15:31André Duqum?

  Yeah, which is.

• 1:15:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, do the things that help you to come alive, because far too few of us are actually alive. And it's true, like, so many people are just going through the motions. But it's like, you know, you think about like, what am I doing in those moments when I feel like, like, this is what I'm here for. And if you can maximize those moments, yeah, it's a fulfilling life.

• 1:15:59André Duqum?

  Yeah, and in that, too, him mentioning like, don't ask what the world needs, right?

• 1:16:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:16:05André Duqum?

  Ask what makes you come alive.

• 1:16:06Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:16:06André Duqum?

  Because that's what the world needs, is people who come alive.

• 1:16:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, because when it's what the world needs, then it's, again, the people pleasing. The world has many needs, so, but it's like, but what's your path gonna be? You know, like, we need more environmentalists, we need more social workers, we need more, like, all these, we need more spiritual podcasts, you know, we need all these things. But what's, you know, your unique calling?

• 1:16:34André Duqum?

  Yeah, it's a great reminder that, because of course, we all want to support in ways we can consciously say, but then, when we discover what it is that actually ignites us, you know, we need people that are ignited in all different areas. And so it's like, not to put a hierarchy of one's better than the other, but like, yeah, get lit by what lights you up and follow that.

• 1:16:57Speaker 02

  Yeah. And I will say to recognize, I'm gonna say the privilege of that. You know, because you may have been raised by people, or they may have been raised by people who like literally just had to do the nine to five and that's what like got the family through. And so, you know, we have gratitude for that. And then, you know, is it possible in your lifetime to have some choice in the matter? And I would say even for those who are in a financial situation where right now I'm just having to do a job and it's not the job that feeds me, can I, you know, create time and space in my life to be able to do the things that feed me even while I may be holding on to this to cover the bills?

• 1:17:43André Duqum?

  It's a unique gift that we get to embrace and the, and the privilege that maybe for

• 1:17:52André Duqum?

  dozens and dozens of ancestors have not had the privilege to be able to explore. And I'm just curious your thoughts on both the challenge and the privilege of being the one who kind of breaks these family cycles and the responsibility that comes with that, but also the absolute amazing gifts that come on the other side of it for everyone who comes after you and for your own life.

• 1:18:19Speaker 02

  Yeah. The challenge is, you know, you often don't know people who can help you navigate the path, you know, they may give you the fundamentals of like what it means to be a person of integrity and those things are important, but in terms of, you know, if someone's first in their family to go to college and they're, you know, let's say attending a public school where they're not really shepherding you through that process, it's like trying to figure out like what do I put in a statement or, you know, just those, or what helps me to, to position me for possibility or for greatness, you know? So I often say, you know, if you didn't grow up surrounded by that, you actually in a lot

• 1:19:04Speaker 02

  of ways have even more intelligence, right? Because I, you know, the example I. Is, you know, when we're studying for these standardized tests, there are those of us who like walked around with the book, like memorizing those words. And then there are people who grew up just hearing those words. Right? So if you're like, you're telling me like you just spent the last year with that thick book, memorizing words and a number of them, just imagine if like you had heard those in conversation. So, you know, it is the challenge of sometimes not knowing the path or having people who can help you with the path. And then, you know, you talked about like the weight of responsibility. And sometimes that is going into people's decision making.

• 1:19:49Speaker 02

  You know, I'll have students when I, now I teach in graduate school, but when I taught undergrad, I would have students often from immigrant families who would want me to explain to their parents, you know, what it is to be a psychologist and why it's a good choice because their parents were like, doctor, lawyer, engineer. You know, we know that those things make money and those things are reputable. And so they're like, psychology, like, what's that? And so sometimes it can be the weight of wanting to be something or do something that either you haven't seen or your family hasn't been exposed to. But also that sense of responsibility of people may have been kind of banking on you

• 1:20:33Speaker 02

  to bring the family to a new place, maybe like financially. So then they may say like, oh, you can't major in poetry. Right? Like, you had to pick something that's going to help us all. So that can be a weight. And then when you come from an underrepresented group, you know, the weight of, you know, feel like you are representing everybody. Right? So it's like, if you're the first and you, you know, you fail a test or you mess up with something, then the stereotype becomes they can't do it. Right? Versus if there are many of you there, then it's just you of one. Like this one person flunked the test.

• 1:21:17Speaker 02

  So that can feel a heavy. But I like to say, in addition to intergenerational wounds, we could also have intergenerational wisdom. So while, you know, your four parents may not have like faced these corporate barriers or academic barriers, they know some things about like how to survive life. And then it's about trying to figure out, how do I apply that knowledge to this new environment? And then finding mentors in your new space.

• 1:21:49Speaker 04

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• 1:22:18Speaker 01

  Now, more than ever, we need someone on our side. But Rob Whitman? Whitman's votes drove up costs, cut Medicaid, and risked 350,000 Virginians' healthcare to pay for tax breaks for himself and his donors. He's not on our side. Shannon Taylor will fight corruption, cut taxes, and bring down costs. This November, vote for Shannon Taylor. She's for us. Paid for by HMP, the House Majority PAC dot com. Not authorized by any candidate or candidate's committee.

• 1:22:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:22:49André Duqum?

  I love the reflection of both, yeah, there's intergenerational wounds, but the gifts that come alongside them as well. There are different cultures and heritages that give us all unique skill sets. And that's awesome to be reminded of as well.

• 1:23:05Speaker 02

  That's right. That's right. It's like they, they'll tell you some things and sometimes they don't know the environment, but they know people. So you describe an event and, you know, you'll have that aunt who's like blah, blah, blah. You know, they've got the whole thing figured out. So it's helpful to tap into that wisdom.

• 1:23:23André Duqum?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:25André Duqum?

  What do you feel is unique and distinct about the intelligence of the heart? I know you've written and spoken to a lot about this. And I'm just curious, what comes up for you?

• 1:23:32Speaker 02

  Yeah. Our hearts are sources of information. Sometimes people, you know, speak negatively about feelings. They're like, feelings aren't facts and, you know, ignore your feelings and don't be all, you know, the problem is people are too emotional. Or I'm grateful for those of us who have remained tender hearted. You know, it's a gift that life has not hardened you, you know? And some people understandably have like become stone hearted. And so for those of us, I'm one of them, who grew up being told like, you're sensitive. It's a superpower.

• 1:24:15Speaker 02

  It's a super, I know it doesn't always feel like it to feel it so deeply. But that you are a compassionate person, a caring person. And that part about noticing things that other people may be overlooking. Those who aren't connected at the heart level, you know, give an example, in a workplace, people may be giving a complaint. And it's really that they feel unrecognized. And if you're not in the heart place, you might respond by saying, you know, this is better for the, for the budget, right? Which it may be, but like you're missing like this human moment of what people are really asking for. It's like, even if I can't change the budget, can I honor your heart and the fact that

• 1:25:00Speaker 02

  you're feeling, you know, erased or taken for granted? So, yeah, there's wisdom in both tuning into our own hearts, like what is your heart telling you? And also wisdom into being open to feeling where other people's hearts are.

• 1:25:22André Duqum?

  Yeah, that I really enjoy and appreciate spending time around other individuals who are also like haven't lost their sense of sensitivity and tenderness of their heart and like the grace that brings into our life. It just rounds out the edges of all human experience, you know? It doesn't mean there's obviously not difficulties, but you become powerful and fluid in that way instead of rigid and resistant to life.

• 1:25:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's beautiful. Those are like, those are the people.

• 1:25:58André Duqum?

  Yeah. And

• 1:26:01Speaker 02

  And it also keeps us grounded in, I don't say like, human hurts, right? Because sometimes we're just like, oh, you know, we don't really take in all these things that are happening globally and locally. So for people, you know, who can really tap in and feel it, I think it becomes like a point of reference for those who are just like going through the motions, not really paying attention.

• 1:26:33André Duqum?

  Yeah.

• 1:26:35André Duqum?

  Yeah, it really feels like that the truly awakened individual isn't the one on the beach in a remote place who's marinating in their bliss, but the one who has taken their sense of realization to extend the pervasive suffering that's available to serve on the planet.

• 1:26:54Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 1:26:56André Duqum?

  And so, thank you for being an example of that.

• 1:26:59Speaker 02

  Oh, thank you, and thank you for being an example of that, serving with an open heart.

• 1:27:04André Duqum?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:06André Duqum?

  This is incredible. I'll just leave the floor for anything else you want to share that's come up for you and then also where people can find you and stay connected.

• 1:27:14André Duqum?

  And I'm just curious, like, what are you up to nowadays?

• 1:27:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, so my latest book came out this year. It's called Matters of the Heart: Healing Your Relationship with Yourself and Those You Love. And along with the hardback and digital, there's also the audio and they let me record it. I like to say it's in my voice. I have my podcast, it's called The Homecoming Podcast. It's on major platforms. And I have started putting on retreats. The first one I did last year, so I've spoken at other people's retreats, but now I'm doing like facilitating the whole thing. So the one last year was in upstate New York. But now I've been doing them in Southern California.

• 1:27:58Speaker 02

  And so to get information on those, my website is drthema.com. D R T H E M A. You can follow me on social media. And yeah, those are the highlights.

• 1:28:12André Duqum?

  Amazing.

• 1:28:14Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 1:28:14André Duqum?

  This is so great. I love getting to just connect with such a variety of humans on this podcast and that I otherwise likely wouldn't have come into contact with. And it's just such a pleasure to connect with you and get to know you more. And let's just stay connected.

• 1:28:28Speaker 02

  I would love to do that. Thank you so much. This has been really enjoyable.

• 1:28:33André Duqum?

  Good, I'm glad. All right, everybody, thank you so much for tuning into this episode. Let us know in which ways you are navigating your own path and maybe any insights, lessons that you've resonated with from today's conversation with Dr. Thema. I appreciate you. Until next time, be well.

• 1:29:04Speaker 01

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