How To Feel Safer In A Chaotic World | Dr. Raj Panjabi

Plan for the worst without spiraling, catch trouble early, and turn bad news into fuel. Dr. Raj Panjabi, MD is the author of Safer: A Playbook—Turning Fear into Action and Crisis into Community https://www.harpercollins.com/products/safer-raj-panjabi-md?variant=44717491191842. He served as Senior Director for Global Health Security and Biodefense at the White House National Security Council (2022-2023) where he co-led the largest vaccination campaign in history against COVID-19 and U. S. responses to other public health crises, including mpox, influenza and Ebola. A Harvard Medical School physician, Dr. Panjabi is the co-founder and former CEO of Last Mile Health, which has trained thousands of community health workers to bring care to communities beyond the reach of any health system. One of TIME's 100 Most Influential People in the World and TIME's 50 Most Influential People in Healthcare, twice named to the FORTUNE World's 50 Greatest Leaders list, and to FORBES 250 Most Successful Immigrants, Raj has received the TED Prize, Clinton Global Citizen Award, and World Economic Forum's Social Entrepreneur of the Year award. In this episode we talk about: Why denial is hardwired: the evolutionary roots of normalcy bias How pre-mortems and Stoic "premeditation of evils" calm the nervous system Setting triggers in advance to avoid both overreacting and underreacting Missing his infant daughter's heart failure, and what it taught him Fleeing Liberia's civil war The three circles of community Curiosity over control: asking "what's in the way?" instead of blaming Holding your purpose tightly and your plans loosely, especially in a disrupted economy Why to embrace uncertainty, and how to come out of it stronger Get the 10% with Dan Harris app here https://app.danharris.com/membership Sign up for Dan's free newsletter here http://www.danharris.com/ Follow Dan on social: Instagram https://bit.ly/3tGigG5, TikTok https://bit.ly/3FOA84J Subscribe to our YouTube Channel https://bit.ly/3FybRzD Additional Resources: This episode is sponsored by: Planet Visionaries: In partnership with The Rolex Perpetual Planet Initiative, listen to or watch Planet Visionaries wherever you get your podcasts. FIGS Scrubs: Take fifteen percent off your first order at wearfigs.com http://wearfigs.com/ with the code FigsRx. OneSkin: Get 15% off OneSkin with the code HAPPIER at www.oneskin.co/HAPPIER https://www.oneskin.co/HAPPIER #oneskinpod To advertise on the show, contact [email protected] or visit https://advertising.libsyn.com/10HappierwithDanHarris

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:03Dan Harris?

  Hello, everybody. Welcome to the 10% Happier Podcast. I'm your host, Dan Harris. We live in an increasingly uncertain and unstable world, at least it feels that way. And quite understandably, you might be tempted to approach this constant upheaval by trying to control everything compulsively, or alternatively curling up into a ball of denial. Neither of these is a winning strategy. We are going to talk to somebody today who has some much better ideas about how to navigate the dumpster fire of modern life. His name is Dr. Raj Panjabi. He's a Harvard Medical School physician, who also served

• 0:44Dan Harris?

  as a Senior Director for Global Health Security and Biod Defense at the White House National Security Council under President Biden. Time Magazine has listed him as one of the 100 most influential people in the world, which is not bad. And his new book is called Safer: A Playbook Turning Fear Into Action and Crisis Into Community. Dr. Punjabi, welcome to the show.

• 1:06Speaker 01

  Thanks for having me on, Dan.

• 1:07Dan Harris?

  It's a pleasure to have you on. Nobody's put me on any lists of 100 most influential people, so I'm going to just try to sit here and control my resentment. But very, very nice to meet you. I'm really interested in talking about the book. One of the things that you talk about is that in the face of uncertainty and upheaval, a common kind of signature move of a human is denial. Why do we do that? Is there an evolutionary explanation?

• 1:34Speaker 01

  I found out that there is. I used to think it was a character flaw. If you didn't take a threat seriously enough, and then it came back to bite you. And I kind of experienced that the hard way. I start the book off talking about this experience of our infant daughter developing a life-threatening illness, and I missed it in my own living room. And for a while, you know, felt a deep amount of guilt as a parent, but also as a doctor. I trained health workers around the world to find heart failure. That's what she ended up having. And when I started to do the research on Safer, I found that denial's the first

• 2:14Speaker 01

  feeling we tend to experience in a crisis, or at times of deep uncertainty. And it turns out, it's not a character flaw. What you learn is that it's actually hardwired into our brain evolutionarily. And here's the thing I learned. If you think back to our pre-human ancestors out on the savanna, they'd have to kind of be aware of a leopard was going to jump off a branch and try to attack you. But if you always thought a leopard was going to jump off a branch and attack you, your brain simply can't sustain that level of vigilance. And so it became a way to adapt. And we started to believe that whatever is happening today is how tomorrow will be as well. And that's a phenomenon that psychologists

• 2:59Speaker 01

  actually refer to as normalcy bias. And that is actually a good thing, but it also makes us less capable of assessing when tomorrow won't be like today.

• 3:11Dan Harris?

  We need normalcy bias, or else we're just constantly on high alert and running our nervous systems into the ground. However, we also need a system for recognizing threats as they arise.

• 3:26Speaker 01

  Yes, yes, we do. And part of the reason I wrote this book as a playbook, it's an eight-play guide for navigating crisis and uncertainty, is because I wanted to figure out how we overcome that denial, when it's the right, you know, right time to do it. Like, if your child has a slow-moving health condition, like mine did, that just tips over all of a sudden, and you don't see the signs coming. How do you see the signs coming? Or, you know, you're sitting there doom-scrolling on your screen and thinking about all the bad things happening in the world. Should we be alarmed or not alarmed? So the macro

• 4:08Speaker 01

  crises and the ones that happen every day, turns out there is a way to deal with it. I experienced, like many people, crisis as chaos. But what I learned is actually, it's not formless. There's really eight themes that come up. And one of them's denial, but we also tend to, the next experience is usually feeling alone. You think about someone in your life, or if you've had a severe diagnosis, or you just got laid off, you'll feel isolated. We're often assessing our risk. Change happens often in a crisis. Critical information's always shifting. And then there's other themes that come up, like conflict. You know,

• 4:49Speaker 01

  remember during the pandemic, the challenge during mandates? People felt controlled. And then there's vulnerability that pops up, and hopefully some adaptation. But you have to change and evolve when there's a crisis. And the last one is uncertainty. I mean, sometimes, like in the case of my daughter, we're not sure why the heart failure happened. She's still alive, thankfully. She's nine now. But we don't know if it was an infectious cause, which she did have a virus grow out of her heart, or it was a genetic cause. And we may never know what the cause is. So it may come back, it may not come back. And that sometimes is what happens with the crisis, is that it persists, or the uncertainty around it persists.

• 5:33Dan Harris?

  First of all, I'm glad your daughter, whose name I think is Karuna?

• 5:36Speaker 01

  Karuna, yeah, which means compassion.

• 5:38Dan Harris?

  Yes. I come out of the Buddhist tradition.

• 5:40Speaker 01

  Oh, sure.

• 5:40Dan Harris?

  We use Karuna quite a bit in my world.

• 5:43Speaker 01

  Well, our kids are named Abhay, Soham, and Karuna. Abhay is courage, Soham is consciousness, and Karuna is compassion.

• 5:50Dan Harris?

  Nice. I love that.

• 5:52Speaker 01

  Yeah. I'm also, I have a problem with alliteration, so it's the only way I can remember things in medical school.

• 5:58Dan Harris?

  We're going to get to many of your plays for dealing with uncertainty, but let's start with denial. And because you do actually have some recommendations for how do we counteract the normalcy bias without, again, throwing ourselves into perennial hair on fire. What do you recommend?

• 6:16Speaker 01

  So, a few things I've learned. Number one, when you're trying to distinguish crisis from normalcy, one of the first things you can do is to do a pre-mortem. So imagine things going wrong, and you work backwards from there and say, why would they have gone wrong? And you essentially simulate, simulate something going wrong. So this could be, you're at work, and you sense there's volatility in your sector. I'm in the biotech sector. Imagine the stock market crashes tomorrow, and I'm worried about being laid off. Simulate

• 6:56Speaker 01

  what it would mean to get laid off for you. Who would you call first? Do you have enough cash in the bank to help you during that period? That helps prepare your mind for dealing with that if and when it happens. That's one idea. Another tool...

• 7:14Dan Harris?

  Wait, I'm going to jump in on that. Because, I don't know if you know this, but in Stoicism, they have this idea of premeditation of evil, where you deliberately envision horrible shit that could happen, so that you actually, it has the counterintuitive effect of relaxing your nervous system, because you develop a plan and see that in the case of whatever evil might arise, you can survive it. So, for example, in my company, I'm in the creator economy. I have a podcast, I give speeches, I write books, I have a social media operation, I have a meditation app. Like, there are these five or six revenue streams. At any

• 7:55Dan Harris?

  given moment, Apple changes the way its algorithms work, or Instagram changes the way its algorithm works, or the ad market for podcasting collapses. Any number of these things can happen and have happened. So every once in a while, sitting down with my CEO and doing what you're calling a pre-mortem, or what the Stoics would call pre-matatio malorum, which is premeditation of evil, is just thinking, okay, we've had many crises in our past. Let's imagine some future crises. What would we do in those cases? And that interrupts the normalcy bias, but not in the way that makes you feel terrified all the time. It actually soothes you, because

• 8:39Dan Harris?

  you know some bad shit could happen, but we're prepared for it.

• 8:42Speaker 01

  That's right. I think there's that old adage, better to be safe than sorry. It turns out, better to be prepared than to be sorry is the way you probably practice how to be safer. You know, this practice you're describing, I mean, maybe the CIA trains people in Buddhism, because I have seen the pre-mortem work being done by intelligence officials at the National Security Council. I mean, we would do these tabletop exercises, right, to predict a future flu pandemic, for instance. And we would, you know, you'd kind of feed a story, the head of the National Security Council, and you'd say, hey, there's a new flu outbreak in Cambodia, and it is spreading quickly between people, and it's killing a number of them. Okay, when do you start warning the public? Do you have enough

• 9:27Speaker 01

  information to do that, or are you just going to freak everybody out? When do you start putting billions of dollars to invest in a vaccine? Because every day is lives in an emergency. And then I saw, I've seen it, the other place I've seen it, Dan, is in my own practice as a doctor. I spent most of my career in internal medicine, trying to help people deal with common conditions like diabetes and high cholesterol, and trying to persuade them that if they take action now to eat better, more physical activity, they could prevent heart disease. And I kept stumbling. Like, I just failed at, when I

• 10:09Speaker 01

  said heart disease. But the moment I asked them to visualize concretely what they would lose if they had a heart attack or a stroke, like, what would you miss if you actually had a stroke and you couldn't use a part of your body? Then people would start saying, oh, I don't want to lose, you know, the chance to take my kids out into the playground and push them on a swing. Or, I don't want to, I don't want to mess up my golf stroke. Then people realize if you could make risk concrete and emotional, you know, Daniel Kahneman is famous for having written about how people are more likely to take an action if it is framed as avoiding a loss than for

• 10:51Speaker 01

  the equivalent gain. And I think that's the same psychology of denial and fear that's probably playing out in the situation room and perhaps in Stoicism and Buddhism as it is in the, in the, you know, exam room, I think.

• 11:05Dan Harris?

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• 11:47Dan Harris?

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• 12:48Dan Harris?

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• 13:33Dan Harris?

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• 14:17Dan Harris?

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• 14:46Dan Harris?

  That's really interesting. I did interrupt you though, because you were going to move from pre-mortem to some other play.

• 14:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, there's another one that's for, for turning denial into action. And that's the first play in the book. It's, it's called Turn Denial Into Action. So you predefine a metric or a threshold, at which point you would take an action. So as an epidemiologist, when you're trying to detect a new outbreak, you're essentially asking a very basic question. Are there more cases of measles, for instance, than you expect? And you just look at past years and you say, well, there were 10 cases of measles last year and now there's 100 cases. So there's like, something's going on. So what do you do? You then are going to send a team to go investigate that. But you, what you've done is you've predefined, and the pre is the key part. You've written down on the left side of the paper, here's

• 15:36Speaker 01

  the thing objectively, in that case, the number of cases. If that trigger is met, then I'm going to take an action, which is to send an investigation team. And so that, there are ways to apply that in our lives as well. Whether you're leading a business or you're, you know, trying to, you know, help your, your child deal with like, you know, how they're navigating a, a school test, for instance. That trigger action discipline is critical. And the psychology behind it, Dan, is for a slow-moving crisis, what psychologists have found is that we have a very hard time of identifying that threat getting worse

• 16:20Speaker 01

  until it reaches an acute tipping point.

• 16:22Dan Harris?

  The classic frog in a, in a boiling pot of water.

• 16:25Speaker 01

  Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And they have a term for this. It's called liminality. You've heard of the word subliminal, right? And, and so liminality, liminal threshold. Once a crisis in your home or in the world reaches an acute tipping point, liminality, at that point, it's, how is that defined? It's defined by that point after which things will no longer be the same. That you have to adapt. And, and everyone remembers March 2020, when you had this thing COVID going around for a while. And then all of a sudden, stock market crashed, the National Basketball Association shut down and, you know, schools shut down. All of a sudden, that was the tipping point. But the, the idea of a predefined

• 17:08Speaker 01

  metric or threshold, it being objective measurable, is that you have a better chance of seeing those early warning signals before you hit that acute tipping point.

• 17:17Dan Harris?

  See, it's funny. I am hearing all of this as kind of the middle path between denial and constant freaking out. So these strategies you're giving us feel like ways to not be in denial, not be suckered by normalcy bias, but then also not be so worried all the time that you're burning yourself out. So if I hear your thing about these triggers, I could just think about my son, for example. My son's almost 12. He's really smart, but we don't yet know what kind of student he is. Do I want to spend all my time wondering and worrying about like, is this kid going to be a good student? Or do I want to say, look,

• 18:02Dan Harris?

  if he starts getting Cs, you know, we're going to have a serious conversation about, is he in the right school? Does he need more tutors? Does he need a, a contract that, that, like my parents, when I was a bad student, gave me a contract and said, if you get above a certain grade, I'll pay you a bigger allowance. Like then I will take action. But now the best use of my energy is neither denial nor unrestrained anxiety. And this helps me cope.

• 18:28Speaker 01

  A hundred percent. It helps you avoid overreaction and underreaction, both. And I think that's right. That's the value I found in it. Like with my daughter, for instance, Dan, you know, when she fell sick, I like got a call from her pediatrician. I'm holding my other two sons who were like four and six. And my daughter was just turned two. And the pediatrician said, we just got the x-ray results back. My wife was with her and your daughter's heart is twice the size of normal. And the only time, like I've been on the giving end of that news. And it's usually a 75-year-old who has heart failure.

• 19:04Dan Harris?

  Yeah.

• 19:05Speaker 01

  That night, we're in the intensive care unit. The next three weeks, we're in the hospital at Boston Children's Hospital. Amazing care for her. And she comes out of it and, you know, she's on medicines for the next two years. And I'm sitting there in her intensive care unit room, cuddling my wife the first night. Thankfully, she's, she is a psychologist, my wife. So she's way more like stoic and calm than I was. I got on my phone and started looking up all the, the medical studies to try to predict whether my daughter would be the one-third that needs a heart transplant or would die if there's no, not available, whether she'd recover or she'd need medicines her whole life. So I think now, what I've

• 19:48Speaker 01

  thought is, well, she's recovered. We don't know the cause fully. It could come back. It may not come back. That's what we've been told by her, her pediatric cardiologist. And the good news is they've given us a way to measure if it will come back. And what is that? Every two years, she has to go get an ultrasound of her heart. And the ultrasound of her heart measures how good her heart squeezes. And there's a, there's a fraction in medicine. We call it an ejection fraction. It's like supposed to be, you know, a certain percentage. And the nice thing is now I can just see if it starts to slide. Rather than what I probably would have been doing is ruminating about whether this will happen

• 20:33Speaker 01

  again. And I think that's just an, that, that objective calibration, as you described, the middle path between panic and denial is certainly a more sane path.

• 20:42Dan Harris?

  Yes. Yes.

• 20:43Speaker 01

  And it's a safe, it feel, like I feel safer, but I don't feel like I'm neglecting my daughter.

• 20:47Dan Harris?

  Exactly. Exactly. Yes. It's about the appropriate amount of vigilance, not hypervigilance and not hypovigilance. Okay. So let's talk about another play in your book. One of your core arguments is that when we're in a crisis, one of the most powerful tools is community. I believe that your people like your wife, psychologists often refer to this as social support.

• 21:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:14Dan Harris?

  Let me start with a very basic question. Why is that so important when you're in a crisis?

• 21:20Speaker 01

  The second place called, don't go it alone. It's critical for a lot of reasons. Number one, you might get more information about a threat that you may otherwise not know about. Number two, You may get more resources than you may otherwise get if you try to pursue something alone. So let me, let me just give you an example from my own life. When I was nine years old, so I grew up in West Africa in a country called Liberia, in Monrovia, the capital. My parents migrated there from India in the seventies. We lived under an authoritarian dictator and eventually the country devolved into civil war. My parents had no idea about whether we should flee. When you have to make the decision to leave everything behind, your home, the store that you've,

• 22:03Speaker 01

  the home goods store you've set up, your kid's school, uproot yourself and try to find life somewhere else. When the airport, the airport in the country is shut down and rebels are marching on your hometown, but you're hearing the dictator on TV say, everything's under control and there's no independent media. That was the situation my parents faced. I was nine, my sister was four. You're trying to make a really tough decision, do I stay or do I go? Well, my parents could not rely on the information that they were seeing on TV because you couldn't trust the guy who was leading the country. So where do they reach out to? This group of ethnic Indians, Sindhis were called, sort of migrated around the world.

• 22:43Speaker 01

  They had friends in the US who were getting information from the US embassy as Americans, saying, these rebels are literally marching on the road coming to your town now. You need to get out. My dad started helping evacuate people on planes. He sent my mother, sister and I out. And eventually he got out on one of the very last planes that he helped organize. I mean, quite literally, if we hadn't been able to depend on the community that we were connected to, that in that case by our ethnicity, we may have been caught in the inferno. And then when we ended up here in America, in North Carolina, that family took my family in. So you, you know, we got physical support. I found out where to go to school. My parents learned new jobs.

• 23:28Speaker 01

  So there's some really practical things that social connection can help you with. In addition to emotional support, there's some very physical things that can help you with that are sometimes existential, like to, you know, for your survival or how you're going to thrive.

• 23:42Dan Harris?

  This is one of the riffs I go on a lot on this show. I suspect my staff has a little drinking game every time I give this speech, but I'm going to give it again. We are living in a counter evolutionary way in a society that is built around consumerism, individualism and tech-driven isolation. I don't think it's a coincidence that we're also seeing unprecedented levels of anxiety, depression, suicide, addiction and loneliness.

• 24:12Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 24:12Dan Harris?

  So you want to be healthy and happy and as anxiety-free as possible? Pay attention to the quality of your relationships. It's much more important than tracking your steps or achieving ketosis or all the other bullshit that we get obsessed with on Instagram. So I'm fully with you on all of that.

• 24:31Speaker 01

  And by the way, Dan, just, just my friend Vivek Murthy, who was our-

• 24:35Dan Harris?

  He's been on the show several times.

• 24:36Speaker 01

  And as you know, is our 19th and 21st Surgeon General. He, you know, issued a surgeon general's advisory, sort of like the highest call you can make from that, that office and essentially found that having loneliness and isolation pervasive throughout your life is as bad as smoking 15 cigarettes is to your health.

• 24:56Dan Harris?

  Yes. I sometimes worry about Dr. Murthy's framing because I think a lot of people don't see themselves in the word lonely, but I just reframe it more as pay attention to your relationships at all levels, from so-called micro-interactions or making eye contact and saying hello to the barista, to your family relationships, to don't let your friendships wither, which is very easy to do when we're mid-career, really obsessed with what we're working on. Let me just frame it in the, in the really positive, as I did before. If you're interested in longevity, which is what everybody's obsessed with these days, longevity and happiness, this is the most powerful lever and that's supported by data.

• 25:37Dan Harris?

  Your institution, Harvard, has been running this study for 90 years, I believe, called the Harvard Study for Adult Development.

• 25:44Speaker 01

  Bob Waldinger and the team, yes.

• 25:45Dan Harris?

  Who's also a frequent guest on the show. And they have found that the number one variable for long, healthy, happy life is the quality of your relationships. So, yeah, so I think the loneliness thing is a problem. I just worry that it doesn't speak to many people who might qualify as lonely, but not see themselves that way.

• 26:03Speaker 01

  Right, right. And where your point is that even if you don't feel that way, investing in those and nurturing those relationships still gives you positive benefit. And I agree with that. Actually, in, in the book, I was trying to figure out, how do you practically? Because my wife and I are always talking about like, how do you build community? And community, the definition I like is, you know, shared responsibility, people who share responsibility to one another. And in the book, what, what I wrote and we're practicing now is think of three circles. Your inner circle, these are your, you know, your partner, people you live with, your immediate relatives. Have you checked in with them daily?

• 26:46Speaker 01

  Your middle circle, and that's the, this is the harder one, I think. You described it, given the kind of lives we live now, tech savvy lives. These are like friends, neighbors, colleagues at work, maybe your extended family. You know, more of us migrate our lives, social lives online. We kind of have lost touch with those folks. And so one of the things I, we try to do, my wife and I is like, can you pick one person once a week that you could do an act of kindness for?

• 27:13Dan Harris?

  Yeah.

• 27:14Speaker 01

  We're not always good at keeping up with that practice, but every time we have it, it just has felt, you know, it might just be getting a meal for someone who's having a hard time. It might be like picking up somebody's kid from school after school if they're, you know, overwhelmed. We found that that really sharpens that sense of responsibility between people who otherwise might not be related.

• 27:37Dan Harris?

  And you said there are three consenter?

• 27:39Speaker 01

  Yeah. And the third one is the outer circle. And this one describes as sort of community leaders, experts, people in your community that you trust, that are, and, and we actually argue like, you, you should at least know who those are. And, and in medicine, you know, given how much, how many crises we're facing now, this country's had twice as many measles cases in the last two years and in the prior two decades combined. A lot of people in Washington are saying, we need to rebuild trust in public health. I've never seen trust be rebuilt from Washington. It's rebuilt by, and I'm not saying that's a partisan statement. I think, you know, it's, it comes from your local doctor, your local nurse,

• 28:23Speaker 01

  your local trusted community leader. But if you identify that trusted community voice in advance of a crisis, that's critical. And we also, I also argue that you should try to diversify that outer circle. Cause I think that's another challenge we have is a lot of the people in our circles are people who think and look like us, sort of pushing people to ask like, is your circle, the outer circle, think and look like you? Or can you push yourself a little bit to add somebody who may not have the same lived experience?

• 28:51Dan Harris?

  I think one of the biggest problems with this outside ring that we're describing is, and there was a big piece about this in the Times the other day. Distrust is on the rise in this country in a massive and corrosive way. Distrust especially of so-called experts. We are in the do your own research era, which is fucking insane, in my opinion. And honestly, like, you know, with respect to you, because I think you, you and many others did heroic work during COVID, public health officials made some mistakes.

• 29:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:26Dan Harris?

  Don't wear masks, do wear masks, keep the schools closed longer than they probably should have been, et cetera, et cetera. That added to the mistrust. And then you have what are sometimes called conflict entrepreneurs, you know, people like Trump and Tucker Carlson coming in and stoking this mistrust for their personal gain. And a democracy cannot work if we can't stipulate to the same set of facts. So I worry about, I mean, I, I feel much safer telling people, hey, work on your first two circles, your inner circle and then the slightly wider circle. But knowing who to trust in an age of rampant mistrust is super tricky.

• 30:10Speaker 01

  It's very hard. It's very hard. In fact, the, the fifth play in the book is called find common ground because this, this theme of conflict, either conflict within yourself, within your family or within your workplace, or just broadly in our society, comes up often when there's a crisis. Right? When things are in upheaval. What I learned is there's this, part of the reason the distrust is persistent during those times and escalating, as you describe, is because we've, and public health officials to their fault, which is appeal to control instead of curiosity. And what I mean by that is just an example, again, I'm, I'm using measles because we have a lot of it right now.

• 30:55Speaker 01

  It's, it's on a lot of our minds, certainly a lot of parents like me who are sending their kids into under vaccinated communities are worried. But you could, you could talk about this in other situations as well. So we spent-

• 31:09Speaker 01

  Measles vaccine came out 1963. We spent about 37 years getting to a place where we eliminated measles. And to get there, yes, we had school mandates, but we also had outreach, meeting people face to face. All of a sudden, you eliminate it. We stopped doing the outreach and the education. We rely on this brittle foundation of mandates alone. And of course, it takes just another 14 years for the first outbreaks to come back. And now we're in a place where we're likely to lose our elimination status, which like very few countries at our like level of wealth have ever lost. And I think it's a lot of it has to do is like, if you only apply, appeal to forcing

• 31:51Speaker 01

  someone to do something, but not curious about what might make them do something. People ask me all the time, if they're vaccinated, they're worried about a loved one who isn't. The first instinct is to ask a blame oriented question. Why aren't you following the guidelines? Actually, what I've learned a more useful question to be is what's in the way?

• 32:10Dan Harris?

  Yeah.

• 32:10Speaker 01

  Cause then you're, and you often need to do that in person, which is harder and harder to do when you can communicate so easily by text and phone. People don't even use as much anymore, but by text and email and social media. And what you're doing when you do that, certainly as an official, but I think you're doing it as a parent with a kid, or you're doing it as a brother with a sister, or a friend with a friend, is you're humanizing yourself and you're understanding their humanity because you're meeting face to face and you can listen to their concern.

• 32:40Dan Harris?

  I think we should talk about this, not only in the, in the context of public health, because most people watching and listening are not public health officials. It's about how can you get the people in your life to do what's in their best interest and will keep them safe without having it backfire. And if you call them an idiot all the time and/or impose rigid rules, they're unlikely to listen to you.

• 33:10Speaker 01

  Yeah. And case in points, our 14 year old at home, our teenager who really wanted a smartphone when he went to middle school. And my wife's a psychologist, remember? So she's consuming all the pieces of information that say you really shouldn't have a smartphone until you're 16 and above and your brains aren't fully developed till 26. Mine might have taken even longer to get developed. And our 14 year old comes home from school, like a lot of kids, their friends have the phones and the smartphones and they want the device too. And you know, we sat down with him and initially we were like, no, you can't have one. What I learned doing this research is when you do that, there's a part of our brains

• 33:55Speaker 01

  called the prefrontal cortex, and many will have heard that. It's like, kind of like the part of the brain that reasons. When you tell someone, no, you can't, that part of the brain, the signal dampens at the very time you want them to be open to reasoning. So of course we tried, said no, and he came back with a vengeance and kind of pushed us and started, you know, acting up. And then we got to a point where we said, well, why is this important to you? And he said, you know, what's really important to me is I don't want to be on social media, which is what we were worried that he would want to be on. He's like, yeah, my friends have it, but I can't be in touch with my friends in the evening like they are over text and I feel like I'm being left out.

• 34:39Dan Harris?

  Yeah.

• 34:40Speaker 01

  My wife, I give her all the credit for this because she does a lot of tech management in her home, set the phone up so that allows him to text and he's got like the New York Times app, but no social media.

• 34:51Dan Harris?

  Yeah.

• 34:52Speaker 01

  And I think if we hadn't listened to his concern, we wouldn't have found that insight.

• 34:57Dan Harris?

  Yep.

• 34:58Speaker 01

  Curiosity, not control.

• 35:01Dan Harris?

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• 35:46Dan Harris?

  and radiance, and visibly fewer fine lines for skin that both looks and acts younger. My wife and I have both been using OneSkin products for several months since they became a sponsor of this show. Thank you, by the way, for that. And we have enjoyed their products very much. Born from over 10 years of longevity research, OneSkin is helping you unlock your healthiest skin now as you age. For a limited time, try OneSkin with 15% off, using the code HAPPIER at oneskin.co/happier. That's 15% off oneskin.co with the code HAPPIER. After you purchase, they'll ask you where you heard about them. Please support our show and tell them we sent you. Not long ago, my wife had an interior design dilemma.

• 36:31Dan Harris?

  She's been researching a book for a while and in order to do the research, she's been ordering a lot of books that she is then reading. But then the question became, what do I do with all these books? She didn't want to throw them away or give them away because she wants to be able to refer to them for her research. So she found a great solution via one of our sponsors today, Wayfair. Through Wayfair, she got these really beautiful translucent bookshelves. They're not even waist high and she has lined her office with them and filled them with books. And the net effect is it looks quite beautiful. It's an elegant solution and that is what Wayfair can do for you for many of your interior

• 37:11Dan Harris?

  design and also outside backyard furniture solutions as well. And now they have something called Wayfair Verified. Wayfair helps you create a home that stands up to real life with quality products, great value and trusted reviews. Products that you see through Wayfair Verified are hand vetted by product specialists using a 10-point quality inspection. Find pieces made for real life and get even more value with Wayfair Rewards. Join Wayfair Rewards today to get 5% back on every purchase. Head to wayfair.com to shop all things home. That's W A Y F A I R dot com.

• 37:47Speaker 02

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• 37:50Dan Harris?

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• 38:33Dan Harris?

  For every item you purchase, they donate an essential clothing item to somebody facing housing insecurity. One purchased equals one donated with over 200 million donations and counting. Head on over to Bombas.com/happier and use the code HAPPIER for 20% off your first purchase. That's B O M B A S dot com slash happier. Use the code HAPPIER at checkout. Just to reset, we're talking about strategies or plays, as you call them, for keeping yourself safe in an increasingly uncertain and chaotic world.

• 39:11Dan Harris?

  Another of the plays that I found particularly interesting is you put a high, high premium on flexibility. I think there's a, there's a tendency, this may be the opposite of our tendency toward denial. Some of us, I'm not going to name any names, but his initials are Dan Harris, would try to deal with uncertainty by compulsively planning rigid plans for everything. That can get brittle. As I said, place a high premium on flexibility and the willingness to pivot. So can you talk about how that keeps us safe?

• 39:51Speaker 01

  When you're in a crisis or a period of deep uncertainty, so let's just take AI, for instance. In my line of work in medical research, we are constantly trying to keep up with AI and how it's shaping how we find cures for treatments for cancer, heart disease, dementia. And it's really tough to keep up as, as a business. We have scientists, we have entrepreneurs. They are constantly hearing every day in the news of some latest advance of how AI or some other company's already gotten the answer to it. So that's just an example. Our economy is very volatile when there's such rapid technological change. So how do you deal with that?

• 40:36Speaker 01

  Well, one of the key things, whether you're a business leader or you're the head of a household, is, is to anchor tightly to purpose so that you can hold loosely to your plans. And, and the way I translate that in my own life is, is to ask the question, or at, at my workplace with the entrepreneurs and medical researchers I work with, is to say, don't give me your, a perfect plan. Tell me what the next experiment is. And that is a way to hold tightly to the mission of the company, but also what the purpose is, is it a cancer treatment you're trying to develop?

• 41:15Speaker 01

  But also be able, almost by, by proactively being, wanting to experiment. And I think that that's a, you know, something that's going to, a skillset that's going to be more and more critical as we enter an age where, you know, we're, as they say, the, the fourth industrial revolution with, with AI sort of.

• 41:37Speaker 01

  Pervasively, you know, both upending, but also accelerating many parts of our lives and economy.

• 41:44Dan Harris?

  So to put that in, in language that might resonate with just a regular person running a household, whether it's a single person household or, or you've got a full family. Your purpose is to stay safe in an ever-changing world, in particular, like to figure out how you're going to have enough money to support your life in the midst of the emerging fourth industrial revolution about which none of us know anything.

• 42:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:11Dan Harris?

  And we're hearing differing predictions every day. It's going to turn us into paperclips in a decade. It's going to create unprecedented abundance in 20 years. Who knows? Your idea is, okay, be clear about what your purpose is, which is, I want to have, I want to create a happy and healthy life for myself and the people around me. And instead of coming up with one rigid plan, run a series of experiments tied back to your values and purpose.

• 42:41Speaker 01

  That's right. That's exactly right. Yeah, yeah. I describe it in the book as sort of iterative navigation, you know, and Apollo 8, before they had GPS, goes up to the moon, they had to program the rocket and the computer to keep reprogramming, but they always knew they wanted to go to the moon. As long as they kept that as their purpose, they could iterate how they got there. And so I think in many ways in our families, the, you know, many of us are worried about our jobs getting disrupted. You know, I've, I've worked with executive assistants, for instance, who are deeply worried that agentic AI that can schedule, you know, an executive is going to displace you from the job career you've always had.

• 43:24Speaker 01

  And what I've told some of the colleagues I've worked with who are working as executive assistants is if you enjoy that work, you can still anchor to that path. But you probably want to experiment with AI yourself. Maybe you could become the executive assistant that learns how to use agentic AI so well that you become the executive assistant all the executives in the company have to work with and want to work with. And, and that's one way of implementing, you know, this idea of holding tightly to purpose and loosely to our plans.

• 43:58Dan Harris?

  Another thing you talk about in a, in a crisis in terms of maintaining a simultaneity of focus on your purpose and goals and also a willingness to stay flexible is to label the unknowns?

• 44:13Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yes. The idea being when there's critical information and lots of shifting data, it's really easy for the mind to trick itself into believing that there is certainty in that fact. And you brought up, you know, masks and, and schools closures during COVID as an example. In New Zealand, they did something very different. This prime, their prime minister at the time, Jacinda Ardern, sort of famous for leading with kindness and humility during that time. She would, and her health secretary equivalent, would get on Facebook and social media and they would brief the public and they would not withhold any information, known or unknown.

• 44:58Speaker 01

  They would tell the public what they didn't know. And it's simply saying in real life or practically in life is, I have a crystal ball and the crystal ball can only tell me how far I can see for these three or four things. And it can only tell me for these two or three weeks. And then I'll need to recalibrate. And I think that naming of the unknown also breeds trust because, you know, people don't follow, especially at times of distrust, they don't follow invincibility. Whether you're a parent leading your family, you're an executive leading your company, you're a leader like Jacinda Ardern, leading a country, people don't follow invincibility. They follow authenticity.

• 45:42Speaker 01

  Actually conveying, you don't know, but with the message that we're going to figure this out together actually brings more people along.

• 45:53Dan Harris?

  Don't you think there's also something, I mean, I always look at everything through the lens of just an anxious individual. There's something about listing the known unknowns, to put it in, in Donald Rumsfeld's speak. For young people out there, Donald Rumsfeld was the Secretary of Defense during the war in Iraq, and in my opinion, not a great actor. But he had this idea of known unknowns and known knowns and unknown unknowns anyway. But listing the known unknowns can, is a way to kind of wrap your arms around uncertainty that makes it just feel a little better, if that makes sense?

• 46:29Speaker 01

  I, I think it does. I think it does. We sometimes conflate uncertainty, the unknown unknowns, with the known unknowns in that phrase, which is actually risk. The difference between risk and uncertainty is, in my mind at least, is risk is you can quantify it. It's either high, medium or low. Uncertainty, you cannot calculate. So you think back to like the maps, the medieval times, and when they didn't know, like people hadn't like gone on a ship to various lands on earth and they would put, here be dragons, if you, you know, on it. And it was a void.

• 47:09Speaker 01

  And so risk would be, hey, we're going to get on that ship and charter that sea that no one, and get to that land no one's been to. Risk would be, hey, there's a storm, there's clouds coming, our ship may sink or we may go, go through, you know, a very difficult journey. It's high or low. There's a high chance of it, a low chance. As you can see a cloud, there's a signal. Uncertainty is when we get to that land, we don't know what we're going to meet when we get there. We don't know whether they're going to try to attack us or it's going to be a wonderful paradise to live in. That's the way I think about risk and uncertainty. And so naming the known unknowns at least lets you calibrate risk.

• 47:53Speaker 01

  And then with uncertainty, which is harder to measure, you just have to take a different approach. I mean, this is, I think, why we struggle sometimes is AI is a great example. Like, you know, you had these reports in recent weeks about AI, a bunch of CEOs of various AI companies saying like AI could end humanity, you know, and somebody said there's a 10% chance all of humanity will end. Well, I think that's uncertainty. It's not, you're attributing 10% as if there's a risk. It could be 10% today and 5% tomorrow, like there's a chance of rain tomorrow or sunshine tomorrow. But I think it's a mistake because uncertainty is un- incalculable. And that's actually incalculable.

• 48:34Speaker 01

  It doesn't mean you can relax and say, because I can't do anything about it, I shouldn't do anything about it. You still have to, even when we feel out of control, we still have this desire, when we feel out of control, that is, to feel steadier. And so the way we do that is by taking a very small, practical step, right? The next meaningful step can still be in our, in our control. And in the book, for instance, in, in the eighth play, the chapter is actually called Embrace Uncertainty. I learned about this idea called shift the locus of control. It's a, it's a pretty common idea in psychology, it turns out, where basically what you do is if you feel totally overwhelmed by not knowing if the risk is high or low and it's just uncertain, AI, for instance, is it going to be great?

• 49:19Speaker 01

  Is it going to be bad for, for us? Take that situation and put a circle on a piece of paper. Everything outside that circle, as in like, is AI going to take my job or not? Keep it outside the circle. Within the circle, what's the one practical step you can take in the next 24 hours? And then you commit to do it. And in the case of, like I mentioned, executive assistants, it would be, let me go sign up for an AI webinar, because whether it's good or bad, that's a step I can control is at least understanding what it is.

• 49:52Dan Harris?

  I do want to highlight, you called it play number eight, and it is, I think, a core argument in your book, and it's counterintuitive. Your argument is that we should embrace uncertainty, the thing most of us dislike the most. You say we should embrace it. Why?

• 50:11Speaker 01

  Well, first of all, I think it's pervasive. And the second reason is because ignoring it.

• 50:21Speaker 01

  Is sometimes not possible and often can cause us harm. So I'll give you an example. In the case of, you know, the, the origins of COVID, just to put that out there for a second. I helped oversee the White House's review of the declassification of whether, did it come from a lab? Did it come from a bioweapon? Did it, did it, was it naturally occurring? I'm, I'm not going to share anything on this podcast that I couldn't share. The declassified report showed that it either is from a lab or it's naturally occurring and it's certainly not, or almost certainly not a biological weapon. That's what it showed in 2023. Now, I believe that when, when that report was being released from the White House in 20, or from the

• 51:04Speaker 01

  Office of Director of National Intelligence in 2023, there was a lot of concern that the public was going to struggle with not having a clear answer to this horrific pandemic that took the lives of a million Americans and millions more around the world. We would want some closure, right? We're not getting it. We're not getting it. We don't know if it came from a lab or it came from nature. What did we decide to do? We decided to deal with all three potential causes, whether it came from labs, nature, or a potential biological weapon. And my point being is that if we had avoided the

• 51:43Speaker 01

  uncertainty or just ignored it, then we would not be taking as potentially effective actions could we, we could be to reduce risk from all three potential causes and make ourselves safer. So that, that's at a macro level, how we can think about why addressing uncertainty matters and managing through it. But then the last thing I'd say, Dan, and turn it back to you, is there's two or three practical things we can do to make ourselves feel a lot less uncomfortable with uncertainty. One example is, is, is the idea of that shifting the locus of control. That's one. A second is updating your story. And my parents, when they came here, could not know,

• 52:29Speaker 01

  after losing their home and their jobs and their careers in West Africa, whether they would be able to build a life, to keep a roof over our head and have successful careers. They updated their story. My dad would say this thing all the time. No condition is permanent. This come to mean for me that we can't control the conditions we face, but we can control how we respond to them. And so they dedicated that moment of their lives to invest fully in their kids' education. I got to become a doctor because they got me so focused on school, but they were thinking long-term. And then the other thing, Dan, you can do to manage uncertainty is something they use in the, in the VA system.

• 53:13Speaker 01

  There's this idea of, called acceptance and commitment therapy. I don't know if you've heard of it before. Yeah. And for, for, you know, listeners who may not have heard of it, there's a real nifty tool that's called choice point check-ins. And here's what it is simply. When you feel uncertain about a decision, should I take that job that I've been offered or not? For instance, you often hit a fork in the road. One part of the fork is the away move. The other part of the fork is the toward move. You could take the away move, which is away from what you value and believe in. The toward move is aligned with your values.

• 53:58Speaker 01

  And what they found through research with vets who've experienced PTSD and a lot of anxiety is that if you take the toward move towards your values, even if you feel more anxious, over time, you actually learn not to be your fear, but to live with your fear and still actually align yourself with your values and be connected to your values. And you have less regret over time. So that's, that's the third, you know, way to think about it is this, to do these choice point check-ins with yourself.

• 54:33Dan Harris?

  At a high, high level, are you also in some way saying, look, uncertainty is just the ground truth of this being alive thing. So you either embrace it because it's non-negotiable, or you're just going to suffer indefinitely.

• 54:51Speaker 01

  I think that's right. I mean, you're not going to be able to avoid it. And I think that if you find some practical ways to manage through it, that's possible. You will at least find you can mitigate its impact on your life emotionally. What else may be true is you might find yourself getting stronger every time you face it. And, and, you know, I talk about this idea of using tension to adapt in the book, meaning it's sort of inspired by our biology. So our immune systems are designed such that if they face a threat, an infection, for instance, they remember that threat so that the next time they face it, they get stronger.

• 55:34Speaker 01

  And the only way they can get stronger in the first place is by facing the first threat. What if we could approach uncertainty that way? That every time we feel a threat, some uncertainty, that we could build an emotional memory cell, like our, our B cells in our body build that memory for that infection? And by documenting who showed up for me, what skills helped me through this, what it did reveal about who I want to be, what my strengths are, what my limits are. Might we build an emotional memory cell so that the next time we face uncertainty, we could, as, as Nassim Taleb talks about, not just be resilient, but be anti-fragile, the idea of not just bouncing back, which is what resilience is about.

• 56:18Speaker 01

  Anti-fragility, as he describes it, is about getting stronger only because you got, went through that threat. And you start to then ask a question when difficult things happen in our lives, not what can't I be because this happened to me, but what can I only be because this happened to me?

• 56:37Dan Harris?

  I've never met this guy, Jaco Willink, who's a former Navy SEAL and podcaster. And there's, and I've, I've mentioned this a few times on the show. So Jaco, if you or anybody you know is listening, you're welcome to come on and talk about it. But there's this viral clip of Jaco talking about how he developed the muscle when something shitty happened to say, good.

• 57:04Dan Harris?

  Oh, I just, uh, lost my job? Good. Or I just, I just tried this project and it failed? Good. Because there's always some opportunity in whatever quote, unquote disaster you're facing. How does that land for you?

• 57:24Speaker 01

  I think it's very resonant. Just give you a very simple example. I now commute for work from the Washington DC area to Boston almost every week. And that's the least favorite part of my job is having to leave my teenage and pre-teenage kids at home and my wife with them. And yet I'm stuck because this is the way I kind of keep the roof over the head of our family. And I like what I do.

• 57:49Speaker 01

  And so the first year of the job, I was struggling with it. And then the second year, I told my wife, again, I have the advantage of being married to a psychologist, but she has the disadvantage of me being her 11th patient every day. And, and I, I talked to her and we, and I, I was writing that chapter and learning about embracing uncertainty and asking that question, not what can't I be because of this, because I'm telecommute, because I'm commuting? But what if I asked, what could I only be because of this? And two very simple things came to my mind. This is through some journaling as well. One is, I realized actually in the evenings, I'm by myself. And when I'm with my kids in DC, I rarely have gotten to

• 58:33Speaker 01

  go to an evening lecture or, you know, a, a, a play or that, you know, I would have enjoyed doing. And so now, when I'm in Boston, I like, I'll just go down and actually go watch a lecture from somebody I hadn't seen before. Now that's, lecture's not necessarily everybody's cup of tea in the evening. But the other thing I realized is, well, what if the kids could come and summer camp with me in Boston? And all of a sudden, they're doing camps they wouldn't otherwise do. But importantly, they're getting one-on-one time with me that for a week at a time, that they otherwise wouldn't have gotten when I was at home. And so, yes, I agree with what he said.

• 59:14Speaker 01

  I think that there is opportunity in every situation, but we have to pause and reflect to imagine it. And for, you probably can't be told what that is. You kind of have to ask yourself.

• 59:28Dan Harris?

  Yes. Two expressions from the meditation world are coming to mind. One is, everything is workable. Like no matter what's happening, there's a way to work with it.

• 59:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:39Dan Harris?

  The other comes from a guy I quote. On almost every episode, Joseph Goldstein, my longtime friend and meditation teacher, and he always says, don't waste your suffering. We are going to suffer because life, either we're going to screw up in some way, or life is going to foist some sort of unwanted circumstances on us. But don't waste it because there's always an opportunity embedded in the shit show.

• 1:00:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Now, my dad, that, that mantra, no condition is permanent. We can't control the conditions we face, but we can control how we respond. I think he would probably agree with what you just said as well. I think that's very powerful.

• 1:00:20Dan Harris?

  We have a segment we do at the end of the show now, where it's called what's good. And so it's an opportunity for the guest to recommend something. It could be a book, a movie, a play, could be some little practice there they've integrated into their lives. And then I'll reciprocate with something from my side.

• 1:00:37Speaker 01

  One of the things I find good in my life is morning pages. And if listeners don't know the practice, Julia, Julia Cameron, in her book, The Artist's Way, writes about this practice where you, the moment you wake up in the morning, you get out three pages of paper and it's really important you write, get a pen or pencil and write whatever comes to your mind. I didn't hear it from her first. I heard it from my friend, physician, author, Atul Gawande.

• 1:01:07Dan Harris?

  Who was recently on the show.

• 1:01:08Speaker 01

  Oh, okay. Yeah, I'm not surprised he's so terrific. He described it as a way he learned, writes, his writing practice. When I read it in Julia's book, I learned it as a spiritual practice. And I will just spend time taking questions like that. One, in fact, that's how I discovered the answer to what could I only be because I commute? Was through morning pages and just writing out three pages in a row, whatever comes off your mind. You might start with, as I did, I feel tired. I feel groggy. And that's fine. Just like, it's a way of like, releasing the cobwebs from your mind so that then clarity comes. And I recommend that practice for writers,

• 1:01:53Speaker 01

  but just for any individual, morning pages.

• 1:01:55Dan Harris?

  There's also a bunch of research around a related practice, therapeutic journaling, where for one or two days in a row, you spend, I think, 15 minutes and you just write with no particular agenda and no finickiness about the quality of the writing. And in the wake of a traumatic event, or just if you're doing it for no particular reason at all, it's been shown to have all sorts of positive benefits. So there's something about writing out what's going on in a, in a kind of discursive, unplanned, no going back and editing it. And then in fact, like, usually burning it afterwards. That really does help people. So you're, you're on to something. And so is Julia Cameron.

• 1:02:39Dan Harris?

  Mine is much more lowbrow. I've found in the few weeks that we've been doing this, that guests always recommend something really like, high-minded and beautiful. And mine is always like, some TV show I'm watching. And in this case, it is literally a TV show I'm watching. On HBO, there's a show, a new documentary series, although by the time this posts, it may not be that new. It's called A Killer Story. And I will admit that one of my guilty pleasures is true crime. HBO documentaries are always so, the filmmaking and the storytelling is always of such high quality. I mean, I'll watch shitty true crime.

• 1:03:16Dan Harris?

  Because I love, first of all, I love mysteries. I love seeing, I love watching the act of people figuring something out. But also, from a Buddhist lens, crime really is about the, the unwholesome aspects of our mind, unregulated, unrestrained. But in this, this actually is quite an interesting story, because it's about this couple that identified what they thought was an injustice, a woman who was convicted for killing her ex-husband and her ex-husband's current wife. And nobody believed this woman was not guilty. She was convicted and in prison. And these two people have dedicated their lives to getting her

• 1:03:58Dan Harris?

  out. And, and the story's kind of told through the POV of a grizzled, cynical, hard-bitten New York Times investigative reporter, who this couple had reached out to for years and he had ignored them until actually, her case was overturned. And then he started to get interested. And, and you see him go there for her retrial. I'm not yet done with it. But it's, the characters are really vibrant. And it's, yeah, it's, it's an elevated version of true crime on HBO. Killer story. I recommend it.

• 1:04:36Speaker 01

  Well, my wife is a big fan of those, like, CSI. And so I've got something to take back to her.

• 1:04:41Dan Harris?

  Yes, yes.

• 1:04:42Speaker 01

  As a recommendation.

• 1:04:43Dan Harris?

  I feel much better that your wife, as a psychologist, is interested in CSI. Because it makes me feel like, less of a repro bet.

• 1:04:52Dan Harris?

  The book, everybody, I have it for, if you're watching, you can see me holding it in my hands. If you're not watching, the book is called Safer, A Playbook Turning Fear Into Action and Crisis Into Community, written by my new friend, Dr. Raj Panjabi.

• 1:05:07Speaker 01

  And you can get it wherever you find your books.

• 1:05:09Dan Harris?

  All right. Go check it out. In the meantime, thank you very much for doing this. Great job.

• 1:05:14Speaker 01

  Thank you, Dan.

• 1:05:15Dan Harris?

  Thanks for making the time.

• 1:05:28Dan Harris?

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