147: How to Build a Relationship with Your boss. Politics. How to Disagree Up the Chain.

0:00:00 - Opening 0:02:50 - Tips for good decision making 0:15:31 - How to practice "normal face" 0:33:50 - Dealing with people who don't deliver as promised. 0:31:09 - Feelings on covering Politics and Current Events. 0:46:11 - How to break past a Jiu Jitsu plateau. 0:54:13 - How to build a relationship with a boss who is distant. 1:00:53 - Dealing with a stubborn boss with a junk plan. 1:07:17 - How to disagree up the chain of command. 1:13:38 - Overbearing Extreme Ownership. 1:22:39 - Dealing with being gun-shy and hesitant after something goes wrong. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jocko Willink?

  This is Jocko Podcast number 147 with Echo Charles and me Jocko Willink. Good evening Echo.

• 0:07Speaker 01

  Good evening.

• 0:08Jocko Willink?

  And it's been a little while since we've done some Q and A, so we're gonna do some Q and A.

• 0:13Speaker 01

  Cool.

• 0:14Jocko Willink?

  Thanks to everyone for the question that you have submitted to the podcast.

• 0:18Speaker 01

  Just a reminder, what's the best way to submit a question?

• 0:21Jocko Willink?

  The best way is Twitter or Facebook. And yeah, those are the best ways.

• 0:27Speaker 01

  Your Facebook.

• 0:28Jocko Willink?

  My Facebook or my Twitter. I don't, the Instagram messages are just out of control. There's too many of them and I appreciate it, but I can't get a grip on them.

• 0:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 0:41Jocko Willink?

  So Twitter and, and people, what if it's a long question? Well, write three Twitter statements. If it's longer than, you know, that many characters, it's probably, then go to Facebook. If it's like really a long, long thing, then just go to Facebook and, and send me the message. What's that called? A Facebook message?

• 1:00Speaker 01

  Instant Messenger, direct message, whatever. I think DM is like a general.

• 1:05Jocko Willink?

  Well, the Messenger on Facebook is what I get. I don't, again, I apologize, I don't get to respond to all of them. Sometimes I just try and get somebody a little like, hey, I read it. Hey, thanks. Uh, you know, you know what to do, right? A lot of times people, they're just asking me because they want to get confirmed.

• 1:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:22Jocko Willink?

  You know, hey, do you think I'm, I'm having problems with this girl and she cheated on me? But I don't know if I should leave her or not. It's like, you know what to do, bro.

• 1:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:29Jocko Willink?

  You know what to do.

• 1:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:32Jocko Willink?

  So speaking of, thanks to everyone for the questions and, and that being said, I still look at just about everything that comes in. Sometimes, sometimes they get a little bit lost, but I look at everything that comes in. Sometimes people, if you're listening, if you send me a question, some people ask me a question that I've, I've literally been asked and we've answered on the podcast three or four times. So keep listening to the podcast because if I don't say anything, most likely it's because I've answered that over, I've answered it two or three times. Or you can deduce what to do just from listening to the podcast. You'll figure out, oh, I need to go get after it like.

• 2:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, when in Dalgo Greta. I think that it might be a good idea to have like a, what do you call frequently?

• 2:22Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I know, I know. We do need to do that. So let's do it.

• 2:27Speaker 01

  Check. First question.

• 2:31Jocko Willink?

  We said that for like two years.

• 2:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, I did. Right when I said that, I was like.

• 2:36Jocko Willink?

  No. Didn't Debbie put together like a whole thing on that?

• 2:39Speaker 01

  Maybe.

• 2:40Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, she did. So we could probably dig that up and actually put it to use, which would be smart.

• 2:46Speaker 01

  Yes, sir.

• 2:47Jocko Willink?

  I believe.

• 2:48Speaker 01

  I believe the same thing. First question. Do you have any thoughts on what disciplines someone can use to improve their decision making skills as a leader? Not only in keeping clarity of thought during high pressured situations and environments, but also in making the correct decisions when it is vital.

• 3:06Jocko Willink?

  Okay, so we talked about this last week. You have to learn to detach. And how do you learn to detach? You learn to detach by putting yourself in stressful situations and then observing how you react. So, good stressful situations to put yourself in. Well, what makes you stressed? One thing that will make everyone stressed, especially when they first start, is start with jiu jitsu. That's gonna, that's gonna put you in stressful environments. Look at sports. What are you gonna do? You know, put yourself in stressful positions in sports. What else makes you stressed? Public speaking, right? Public speaking makes some people really stressed out. Start doing it more. What about competition shooting where you've got a, or hunting where you've got to do something in a stressful environment? Or archery, you know, I started, started archery recently.

• 3:51Speaker 01

  You did? Oh, yeah, yeah.

• 3:52Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. And so that's one of those things where you gotta learn to detach. You gotta learn to pay attention to things that are going on. If you're all caught up in the moment, then you're gonna miss it. So that's number one. If you want to learn to deal with stress, put yourself in stressful situations that are under some kind of control. You know, even something like paintball, you know, we do gigs at Echelon Front where we put people through what we call FTXs. Where you go out and you're gonna fire. We usually use airsoft because it's a little bit more, it's a little easier to work with. But actually, what we started using now is we've got these high-end laser tag guns. And so that's, that's what we use and they are super effective. They're, they're, they're awesome.

• 4:36Jocko Willink?

  They're awesome training tools. Like if we would have had them, if we would have, if they would have existed when I was in the SEAL Teams, I would have used them then because they're that good. So we use those and we put people in stressful situations. Go hit this target. There's bad guys. There's, you know, people are going to get shot. There's people yelling. Put yourself in stressful situations and learn to detach. Put yourself in stressful situations with the purpose of learning to detach and stepping back mentally to figure out what's going on. Okay, that's first part. Next part is how do we make good decisions? Well, number one, making correct decisions. You've got to study. You've got to know and understand. You've got to know the background. You've got to know the historical outcomes of equivalent type decisions that have happened in the past.

• 5:21Jocko Willink?

  Similar situations. And if you know the history and you know the background, then you can use those to assess the current situation you're in. And then, once you assess the decisions that you can make, assess the possible actions that you can take and then assess the outcomes that those decisions will have, those actions will have. And when you're doing that, you also have to assess the possibilities of inaction. So a lot of times people forget that one. They don't know, they don't know if they should do A or B. What they forget is there's also, what if I don't do either? What's going to happen? Sometimes not doing either is good. Most, or a lot of times not doing either is bad. So you've got A or B. What should you do?

• 6:06Jocko Willink?

  Maybe sometimes you've got to pick A or B. Sometimes, occasionally, it's better not to do anything. And you wait and let the situation develop a little bit more.

• 6:16Jocko Willink?

  What, so the point of this is whatever you can know beforehand, you know, you learn, you study, you understand, you know, the standard operating procedures, you know, what variants, variations have been made on the standard operating procedures, and that's how you go forward and you execute. Now, the thing that you have to remember is that you can't know everything beforehand, which is why it goes back to study and practice detaching and making decisions. So, so now let me dig into detaching a little bit. Let's actually break that down, maybe some mechanical steps that you can use. Number one, step back, but literally, physically, take a step back from the situation that you're in and move your head and look around.

• 6:58Jocko Willink?

  So when we used to shoot, they would teach us to scan, like you would have to physically move your head. And what that is, is a mental reminder that you need to look around and assess what's happening. So, once you've taken a step off the line, whether that's taking a step back from the table when you're in a meeting, if you're in a, if you're a firefighter and there's a fire happening, take a step back so you can see the bigger picture. If you're in a cop and, and there's a shootout happening, where can you go to step back, get some cover and look around and see what's actually happening? If you're in a, if you're in a conversation with someone, stop talking. If there's an argument going on, stop talking, take a step back and actually listen to all the other elements that are shouting and yelling at each other.

• 7:40Jocko Willink?

  If there's a decision that needs, needs to be made in a, in a planning situation, step back from the plan. Don't just take a step back from it, look at it more broadly. So that's step number one is to step back. Number two, then you're going to come up with, hey, what are the possible decisions that I can make? I could go this way, I could A, B, D, A, B, C, D. I could do any one of these things. Keep an open mind. This is the problem some people have is they, they come up with two decisions, three decisions, and they don't think about anything else. So you kind of have to like repeatedly detach. You kind of have to stay detached. That's why it's good, you throw out an idea like if we're planning for something and I come up with three ideas, I say, Echo, what do you think of these? I give them to you, then I step back again. I keep my mind open. So that's why the more you can get your subordinates to plan, the better off you're going to be.

• 8:25Jocko Willink?

  The more you can get the people below you in the chain of command to come up with an idea or come up with the ideas, the better off you're going to be because you're not embroiled in it. You're, you're de facto detached because you're letting them run with it. Then, okay, once you look at your decisions, then you gotta look at what the possible outcomes are. What are the possible things that can happen? Is this could, how bad could this go? Risk versus reward. You gotta weigh those things out and you gotta do it fairly quickly. And again, you gotta, you gotta figure out what's the result or possible outcome for inaction. And then you just weigh out these various options that you've created and you figure which one, which outcome has the most, which one makes the most sense.

• 9:06Jocko Willink?

  That's, that's what's good. And like I said, inaction is, some people like any action is better than no action. Not always true. Not always true. Sometimes you can learn more by letting things develop and letting things reveal what, what the status is. So that does make sense and sometimes you do hold off. If, if you, if you can see that a problem is getting worse though, well, then we gotta do something. Then generally, okay, let's make some kind of a decision very quickly. Now, one of the most important things to remember, and there's a little dichotomy to this, is that you don't always have to make giant decisions.

• 9:44Jocko Willink?

  You don't always have to make the all, the, the, the all powerful decision of might. You know, it's like, do we go or do we not go?

• 9:57Jocko Willink?

  You don't always have to say, we go. Sometimes you can go, well, let's push a little further. Let's, let's, let's move a little bit further before we make that decision. Or hey, let's stay where we are and see if it develops. Or let's back up a little bit and keep watching. So instead of we go or we don't go, there's actually a bunch of different decisions that you can make besides we can go or don't go. There's a building, there's a bad guy in it, let's go. Or let's not go. No, actually, let's put eyes on the target for a little while. Let's, let's call and see if there's any other intelligence. Let's put an aircraft overhead. There's all kinds of decisions that you can make. Let's push a little bit closer. Let's stage. Let's monitor. So there's all kinds of decisions that you can make that.

• 10:38Jocko Willink?

  Allow the the situation to develop further and maybe reveal the proper decision to you in the long run. So my my fear of saying that is that people be get paralyzed, what is it analyze the parallel, parallel, yeah, analysis paralysis. That's my fear about saying that because the dichotomy is you can sit around and analyze and figure out and look at something for over for forever while the situation changes and now you lose. So, yes, you don't have to make giant decisions, but at the same time, you gotta be decisive. There's a dichotomy. I'm sorry, I'm sorry, leadership is not easy. Wrote a whole book about it. Dichotomy of leadership. Why? Because that's what happens.

• 11:22Jocko Willink?

  So, there you go. That's my assessment of how you can improve your decision making skills. Experience goes a long way.

• 11:30Speaker 01

  Yes. Yeah, it's one one of those deals kind of when you're talking about the the results versus the the the method, right? Decision making some sometimes like the result, actually both method and results, kind of the value isn't even in the results. It's like you haven't getting that experience going through it, you know? It'll improve your decision making.

• 11:53Jocko Willink?

  True, true, yeah. Anytime you can be in a situation where you're making decisions and getting experience out of it, you're gonna get better at it.

• 11:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, kind of the value in role playing.

• 12:01Jocko Willink?

  That is a value. That's why we do a lot of role playing in Ashland.

• 12:03Speaker 01

  Kind of like a little thing.

• 12:04Jocko Willink?

  And people might think like, oh, that how does that work? Come and get it. Come and get it. I watch people all the time totally improve as leaders because put them through a role play scenario as a leader where they're going up against a combative subordinate or a subordinate that's lazy or a subordinate that's angry or a subordinate that that wants to leave. Like you put it, you put a person role playing in those situations over and over again and they get so much better. Three iterations, three iterations and people are.

• 12:35Jocko Willink?

  exponentially better at handling situations.

• 12:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, cuz it's like some of, I mean, most of the time, I mean, it was just a matter of them like never seen it before. And then, you know, when it's in the during game time, it's kind of like you gotta make the decision super fast. So you can't analyze from the role playing situation, you can analyze, you can do whatever and then and then learn it.

• 12:54Jocko Willink?

  No, that's a great point. I actually should have brought that up. That's a great point is another way that you can get better at making decisions by role playing. For sure. Give yourself the options, put, put your set, set yourself up a pressure situation and have people role play it out with you of what you're gonna do.

• 13:09Speaker 01

  Yeah. So it's kind of like, like mock experience.

• 13:11Jocko Willink?

  That's basically, well, it is, it is mock experience. That's basically what SEAL training, well, not the basic SEAL training, but the SEAL training that I ran. That's basically what it was. We're gonna have people act like bad guys and you're gonna make decisions all day long. That's a role play.

• 13:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:24Jocko Willink?

  Get some.

• 13:25Speaker 01

  Yeah. Like remember, and again, going back to like just seeing it once, right? Just seeing it one time is, is way bigger difference than, than, I mean, compared with never seen it all versus seeing it once. The difference between that is way bigger than seeing it like twice versus once. You know, if you've seen it once, it's kind of like, okay, now, yeah, this, yeah, it's like night and day.

• 13:46Jocko Willink?

  It's night and day. The difference between knowledge and like

• 13:50Speaker 01

  No, no.

• 13:50Jocko Willink?

  No knowledge is crazy.

• 13:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:53Jocko Willink?

  And we see that over and over and over again.

• 13:55Speaker 01

  Like on Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade. You ever seen that one?

• 13:59Jocko Willink?

  I'm pretty sure, wait, how old is that one? Like I saw the, like that series when it came out, I was a kid.

• 14:07Jocko Willink?

  I think I've seen it.

• 14:08Speaker 01

  So at the end, they go through

• 14:09Jocko Willink?

  I had to have seen it.

• 14:10Speaker 01

  The things, right? That they're like these booby traps, right? To get the holy grail. That's what they're doing.

• 14:16Jocko Willink?

  Oh, then I've seen this one cuz everyone, the guy's face melts, right?

• 14:18Speaker 01

  No, that's Raiders of the Lost Ark. When they open the ark, you gotta shut your eyes.

• 14:23Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 14:24Speaker 01

  It's old school. Anyway, no, this one, they have to go through these, like, these tests or whatever. They're, they're booby traps to get to the holy grail. And one of them was you have to kneel. Only the penitent man will pass. That's what it says in the Grail Diary. Which is Indiana Jones dad's diary that he took all the notes in. And so he's like, oh, you gotta interpret that, right? So they had all these people, there were bad guys there too. So they just send someone in there. And then the guy'd go in and his head gets chopped off. So you go in there, you know, hey, that blade is gonna come chop off my head cuz I seen that one guy get his head chopped off. I'm just gonna. Duck.

• 15:05Jocko Willink?

  Mm hmm.

• 15:06Speaker 01

  It's one time, that's all you gotta know. The blade's gonna come out, duck.

• 15:09Jocko Willink?

  Good point. Thanks, Indy.

• 15:11Speaker 01

  Grand- granted, there was more booby traps. You kinda gotta refer to the Grail Diary for the answers. Subject to interpretation, by the way, but same deal. You see the point, though, right? If you walk through a hallway-

• 15:22Jocko Willink?

  I get it, yes.

• 15:23Speaker 01

  And you see the guy get his head chopped off.

• 15:24Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 15:25Speaker 01

  You know, okay, I better duck now.

• 15:26Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, you best duck.

• 15:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:28Jocko Willink?

  Yep, I get it. Thank you.

• 15:29Speaker 01

  One time. One time, that's all it takes. Anyway, next question. How do you practice normal face?

• 15:35Jocko Willink?

  So, same, and the reason I grouped these two questions together is because there's a little, there's some similarities there, you know? How do you practice normal face? Which is a legitimate skill, by the way.

• 15:44Speaker 01

  Yes, sir, it is.

• 15:45Jocko Willink?

  It's, it's, oh, it's a funny little game. If you haven't heard it, what you do is I used to do this to my kids. I put, line them up, and if they made any expression whatsoever besides just a normal, plain face, I'd hit them in the head with a, uh, the inside cardboard roll-up of a wrapping paper. So that's, there's the game. And it's a lot of fun, and we'd have fun doing it, and everyone would laugh. Well, i- it's also useful as an adult. To be able to not show your emotions. So, how do you do it? Same thing. Put yourself in stressful situations, and, you know, a good one is jiu-jitsu. Jiu-jitsu, if you can just like act normal, even when someone's just crushing you, then that's a positive thing. Like, you know, sometimes you and I are rolling?

• 16:23Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 16:23Jocko Willink?

  And you'll be like, oh, I felt a sense of urgency.

• 16:25Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 16:26Jocko Willink?

  That's when I lose normal face.

• 16:27Speaker 01

  Failure, yeah, yeah.

• 16:28Jocko Willink?

  It's failure to keep normal face.

• 16:30Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 16:30Jocko Willink?

  So I get a little bit scrambled, because you're gonna pass or something like that.

• 16:33Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 16:34Jocko Willink?

  And then you, then you feel all good, because you made me react. You broke my normal face. So, yes, that's good. I would say, the thing about normal face is practice it all the time. You know where you practice it? You practice it like when you're driving. I mean, I can't do this anymore, because, but I, when we started this podcast, I would get questions all the time about road rage. How do you prevent road rage? How do you prevent road rage? I think everyone's so in the game now that they're, they figured it out. But that's a good, you know, any time where there's something bad happening, like something annoying, something like the line.

• 17:05Speaker 01

  Yes, the line.

• 17:06Jocko Willink?

  The line at the DMV, the line, wherever. And you just, just, just keep normal face and just act like whatever, detach, and just act normal.

• 17:15Speaker 01

  Use your money.

• 17:16Jocko Willink?

  In jiu-jitsu. When you're in between rounds, don't act tired.

• 17:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:22Jocko Willink?

  That's like one of my, I try and maintain that rule all the time.

• 17:25Speaker 01

  You taught me that.

• 17:26Jocko Willink?

  Oh.

• 17:26Speaker 01

  I don't even know if you meant to teach me, and I told the story before, but uh.

• 17:30Jocko Willink?

  But it looks like we're gonna hear it again.

• 17:34Speaker 01

  We'd roll and I'd be tired or whatever after rolling with you and then, you know, and people do this all the time and it sticks. It's like a red flag to me, not a red flag warning of, it just sticks out a lot when people do this. After the round, they'll just flop on their back.

• 17:46Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 17:46Speaker 01

  And be like, oh, you know, like breathing all hard, kinda just, you know, indicating that, oh, that was a tiring round, right? You think, yeah, you're gonna have tiring rounds, I get it, kinda thing. This is the message that you conveyed to me through your actions. You didn't tell me this, but yeah, so I roll with you and I do that, or something along those lines, right? And you like stand up, not breathing through your mouth, I remember that, you're just like, you know, like mouth closed. And then you were looking at me, almost like you're disappointed in me.

• 18:14Jocko Willink?

  I was.

• 18:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, I know you were, now thinking back, yes, I realize you probably were. And you said, you look a little tired, and then you just walked away.

• 18:21Jocko Willink?

  Mm-hmm.

• 18:22Speaker 01

  Like, man, almost like that was the bad part. The, the part that I looked tired, that, that was like the bad part you didn't like. And I was like, from, literally from then on, I'd act like I wasn't tired in between, even if I was tired. I would try to act like I'm not tired actively.

• 18:38Jocko Willink?

  That's so important. It's important in life.

• 18:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:42Jocko Willink?

  You know, it's important as a leader. It's more, way more important as a leader than anything else. When you start to break, think, well, I, I don't know if you have any examples, but like, I think of times in my life where I would see my leader start to break. And just think, like how horrible that is for the rest of the team. And I'd be looking at a leader that was breaking, I'd be like, man, you are letting everyone down. And I, you're not gonna do it to me. I'm gonna, you know what, actually, this is an opportunity for me. If you're looking weak, I'm not gonna get all aggressive, but I'm gonna, I'm gonna make sure that people aren't gonna follow that attitude. Cause that attitude's gonna hurt us all.

• 19:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:20Jocko Willink?

  So as a leader, normal face is even more important.

• 19:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:23Jocko Willink?

  I'm not saying you never show emotions, this is dichotomy, I'm not saying never show emotions as a leader, cause you absolutely do show emotions as a leader. But you make sure that they're controlled, you make sure they're not emotion, negative emotions.

• 19:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:34Jocko Willink?

  So am I saying to not be yourself? Yes, I am. Cause if yourself is being a weak, a weak loser and you're in charge of a team and you show everyone that you're wrong. No, you need to stifle those emotions, which we've talked about before. You just stifle those. You need to act. You need to act like, hey, we're gonna make this happen.

• 19:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:57Jocko Willink?

  This doesn't mean lie to them. This isn't like, hey, the boat's sinking, but don't worry, we're, it's gonna be okay. No. Hey, guess what? Boat sinking. You know what we're gonna do? We're gonna break out of life jackets. We're gonna form into a pool. We're gonna grab whatever we can off this vessel. We're gonna make sure we get some, you know what I mean?

• 20:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:11Jocko Willink?

  As opposed to, the boat's sinking. Right.

• 20:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's true.

• 20:14Jocko Willink?

  So you lead. Check.

• 20:16Speaker 01

  So if, um, what, like when your kid falls down, right?

• 20:20Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, totally, totally.

• 20:22Speaker 01

  Like, you notice.

• 20:23Jocko Willink?

  Oh my gosh, are you okay?

• 20:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, running over there.

• 20:26Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 20:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, wait, oh, how's it? I was at the park. My son, too, climbs up high on this thing. It's like a slanted, uh, jungle gym kinda thing. It's just slanted. It's like pretty high. Where it's not like so high that he shouldn't be up there. It's not that, but it's, it's high where you gotta keep an eye on that thing right there. And sure enough, he takes a step or whatever and just straight up falls to the ground. And the ground is, ah, the ground was like a bunch of this weird hay kinda stuff. So it's, it wasn't like concrete, put it that way, but he fell down full on. And the kind, you know, the kind of other parents are looking and my wife is sitting right next to me, kinda far away, maybe.

• 21:03Jocko Willink?

  You had to grab her, didn't you?

• 21:04Speaker 01

  I gra- literally grabbed her, like, don't run over there.

• 21:06Jocko Willink?

  Don't you move.

• 21:07Speaker 01

  And, um, my daughter was there. She's super caring too. So I'm like, ah, I should've grabbed her too, but she's far away. Anyway, so he falls down, of course, doesn't cry. He's more like surprised and stunned and looking around. Almost with a look on his face like, how should I react right now?

• 21:21Jocko Willink?

  That's exactly what he's doing.

• 21:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:24Jocko Willink?

  And then. You tell him.

• 21:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's all good.

• 21:26Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 21:27Speaker 01

  I mean, I'm.

• 21:27Jocko Willink?

  Tell him how to react.

• 21:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, so I didn't.

• 21:29Jocko Willink?

  I'm sure, I mean, when I'm, my kids would take a digger, I'd start laughing. You know, like, oh, that was awesome.

• 21:35Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, yeah, makes sense.

• 21:37Jocko Willink?

  And then they're like, really? Yeah, yeah, that was awesome. You got a little Skinner? Nice. Oh, look, you're bleeding. That's gonna leave a cool scar.

• 21:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:45Jocko Willink?

  You're awesome. Welcome to the club.

• 21:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's a good one. Like, so like, that's awesome kinda thing?

• 21:50Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 21:50Speaker 01

  I'll be like, oh, I stand up strong. Hurry up, hurry up. Like, kinda like you gotta beat it and tell, like, show me how strong you are kinda thing. Oh, I did that the other day. Nonetheless, yeah, so he got up and he didn't cry.

• 22:02Jocko Willink?

  Mm-hmm. Of course he did.

• 22:03Speaker 01

  That was a high ass fall too. Intrigued. He landed correctly.

• 22:06Jocko Willink?

  How many feet?

• 22:07Speaker 01

  Uh, like it was taller than I stand, so.

• 22:10Jocko Willink?

  So we're talking seven feet?

• 22:11Speaker 01

  Like, seven.

• 22:13Jocko Willink?

  Six, six, six.

• 22:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:16Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 22:16Speaker 01

  Over, over.

• 22:17Jocko Willink?

  That's a good digger.

• 22:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was, it was solid.

• 22:19Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 22:19Speaker 01

  But he landed good. Like, if he would have landed on his head, that's an injury straight up, but he,

• 22:23Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, for sure.

• 22:24Speaker 01

  He felt like good, which is lucky. But yeah, nonetheless. So yeah, the point is if I were to, oh my gosh, oh, it like ran over there or something like this.

• 22:31Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah.

• 22:31Speaker 01

  It would have jammed him up. Um, yeah. Isn't that why the airline pilots, when you get turbulence, they're like, hey, everybody, just go ahead and buckle your seatbelts for, we might feel a little bit more that, you know, instead of, hey, guys.

• 22:43Jocko Willink?

  Buckle your seatbelt now!

• 22:45Speaker 01

  We're going. Yeah, I, I very much appreciate that when they do that, by the way.

• 22:50Jocko Willink?

  Alright, next question.

• 22:52Speaker 01

  Next question. I tell the team, we need this done by three P M. They say, got it. We'll have it done by three P M. But they don't deliver on time and tell me, well, we didn't know we needed it done by three P M. How do I take ownership of this?

• 23:07Jocko Willink?

  Mm hmm. Yeah, this is, this seems like a tough question, right? But it's actually not that tough of a question.

• 23:16Jocko Willink?

  Because what you think is like, well, they, they said they were gonna get it done, then they didn't get it done. Then how can that be my fault?

• 23:20Speaker 01

  Right.

• 23:21Jocko Willink?

  And I, well, maybe that's not how the question is meant, but that's the way I'm interpreting it for the purpose of this answer.

• 23:28Speaker 01

  That's true.

• 23:29Jocko Willink?

  Cause maybe he just meant like, hey, how do I take ownership of this? And if that's the way he meant it, fine. The answer's the same, actually. So what happens is, if you, if that happens with, what happens is, if that happens with your team, then you take ownership of it by recognizing that you did not communicate effectively. Because if your team isn't doing what it is you need them to do, that is actually your fault as the team leader. They either didn't understand how important it was, or they didn't understand how solid that deadline was.

• 23:56Jocko Willink?

  Or they didn't understand that when you said this thing needs to be completed by three o'clock, that you meant completed by three o'clock. Maybe it's because you usually say, hey, we need this done tomorrow at two, and you give them slack and they just kind of take advantage of it, blah, blah, blah. Then, you know, if you want to take ownership of it, maybe you didn't follow up enough, right? Maybe you trusted them too much. Whose fault is it if you trusted them so much that you just let them? You showed up at 2:59. Is it done? Well, no, we didn't think it was due. Like, we didn't know you needed it actually. So, whose fault is that? It's your fault. You trusted them too much. Maybe you gave them too much leeway, right? Maybe you gave them too much leeway, too much decentralized command, dichotomy leadership. Maybe you went too far with decentralized command. You said, hey, get this done by 3 o'clock.

• 24:39Jocko Willink?

  Figure out however you want to do it. I'll be back at 2:59. And you roll out and it's not done. So what do you do? You come back at 3 o'clock. It's not done. It is your fault. You take ownership of it. You say to your team, look, hey, okay, so now how, how do you take ownership of it? Cool, you fix the problem. How do you fix the problem in this case? Well, guess what? Next time I tell you something's done at 3 o'clock, I'm going to check in with you. I'm going to check in with you a few times. Uh, here's the progress that we want to make. I want you to be here by this point. I want you to be here by this point. I want you to be here by this point. And that puts us on track to finish well ahead of 3 o'clock. So let's make it happen. Are you going to micromanage a little bit more? Yes, you are. They missed a deadline. You're not allowed to miss deadlines. Not allowed to miss deadlines.

• 25:23Jocko Willink?

  Do I micromanage you, Echo Charles?

• 25:25Speaker 01

  No.

• 25:26Jocko Willink?

  Have you ever missed a deadline?

• 25:29Speaker 01

  No.

• 25:29Jocko Willink?

  Well, there's been some podcasts that didn't come out on time. Right?

• 25:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, I guess it depends on what you mean by deadline, but yeah.

• 25:37Jocko Willink?

  There's been some podcasts that didn't come out on time.

• 25:39Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 25:40Jocko Willink?

  And I would send you a text like, hey, just wondering if you knew about a podcast that was, you know, supposed to come out five hours ago.

• 25:46Speaker 01

  That happened one time. Well, no, two times.

• 25:47Jocko Willink?

  I think it's happened two times.

• 25:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:49Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 25:49Speaker 01

  One of them.

• 25:52Jocko Willink?

  So you don't warrant micromanagement? Cause you, we've done 147 podcasts and you've had two that weren't out on time. Do I need to micromanage you? No, I don't. Don't need to, because we're all good. The podcast, hey, occasionally, there's times that they didn't come out. One of them was like, straight up operator error. Where you were like, I didn't press the button publish or something really lame like that.

• 26:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:17Jocko Willink?

  The other time was like major technical difficulty. We got a problem. It's gonna be a couple of days.

• 26:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, then there was another time.

• 26:23Jocko Willink?

  What was the other time?

• 26:24Speaker 01

  When we went to Maine the first last year.

• 26:27Jocko Willink?

  And what happened?

• 26:27Speaker 01

  We just got there the on the night that I was supposed to publish and my mind was just, you know, distracted by the new, I had lost my camera. It was a crazy time for everybody. And, uh, you know, the next morning, you so, um, you know, graciously posted a picture of me sleeping on the plane, by the way, and said, maybe someone can tell I could publish a podcast publicly, which is complete violation, by the way.

• 26:50Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 26:50Speaker 01

  Picture of me sleeping, but hey, nonetheless.

• 26:52Jocko Willink?

  Having fun.

• 26:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, it was, it was actually completely warranted because it really captured like what it felt like. I just totally spaced it out.

• 27:01Jocko Willink?

  So my point is you get stuff done on time.

• 27:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:04Jocko Willink?

  You have a good track record. There's no need for micromanagement. If you were, if you were hitting a lower number, you know, if every, you know, once every, once a month it wasn't on time.

• 27:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:14Jocko Willink?

  You'd be hearing about it all the time from me. I'd be like, hey, we good tomorrow? We good? I'd be checking in with you until you got so mad at me following up with you. You would just be like, hey, I got this and you would never miss it again because you didn't want to be bothered. So for this one, again, it's important to remember that with the idea of extreme ownership, it's not just like, oh, well, I'll say this is my fault. No, when you're in charge of a team and something goes wrong, it actually is your fault. It actually is your fault.

• 27:45Jocko Willink?

  And that's all there is to it. Maybe there's some people you need to fire. Because they are the, they're at fault for this mistake happening and you've let it go too long and you didn't get rid of them. That's your fault.

• 27:54Jocko Willink?

  But it actually is your fault. How do you take, how do you take ownership of it? You fix the problem. Maybe you gotta, in this particular case, maybe you gotta step up the micromanagement. That's, that's the way it works.

• 28:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, it makes sense. Also to the, and I'm speaking from a perspective of someone who could very well easily space out this project by 3pm, by the way, that's, that's potentially me. But this is, this is when it can't happen, um, where. Let's say I get a list of like two, three things, whatever I gotta do, right? Like, hey, we, you know, we want this or whatever. And then, let's say it's not necessarily by 3pm. Let's say it's like by next week Friday. So I got a week and a half to do these three things. And then the next day, there's like another list of two things. And the next day after that, one thing says, hey, you know what? This is the priority. Three days later after a list been established, hey, this is the priority. Get this done first. Then you got one more thing, right?

• 28:48Speaker 01

  So this thing that I said, yeah, got it. I'll have it done by Friday, kind of thing. Sort of gets shuffled and forgot, you know, like forgotten. So maybe I didn't organize it or whatever.

• 28:58Jocko Willink?

  What's your point in saying this? Are you just putting yourself on report? Are you saying that you need to make a list? Are you saying you need to write things down? People that miss things, you know what you do? You write them down. I used to make little boxes. I'll show you some of the checklist. You come to my house, I'll show you checklist I used to make. They were psycho OCD little checklist, little boxes next to. Like I would be going on a trip, I would make a little box. Socks, t-shirts.

• 29:20Speaker 01

  Oh dang, okay, that deep.

• 29:22Jocko Willink?

  Everything, every single thing I was taking, I would have on a list. I still got those lists. I got deployments from the 90s of what I took on deployment. That's pretty legit, right there. Little boxes, little boxes. In the 90s, they were written down on paper. Then in the 2000s, I got the computer. And I'd print those things out. So if people have problems, if you personally are telling me that you have a problem, you gotta write something down.

• 29:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, so, yeah. And obviously, you know, me and you are different. I don't have those kind of notes. But what I'm saying is, uh, yeah, like that could be your methodology of your micro, quote unquote, micromanagement style for things like this. Just make sure they got it, kind of thing. Like if, the things I'm thinking about.

• 30:04Jocko Willink?

  In fact, there could, you can, you can give lists. I normally wouldn't have to do this. But sometimes, there's been a couple of times in my life and career where I'd have to give people a list. Like, hey, I make the boxes for them. Like, hey, here's what you gotta get done today. Make sure we understand each other. I would only do that if they dropped the ball a couple of times. Like, oh, they didn't get this done, they didn't get that done. Okay, guess what? I need to write it down to make sure it happens.

• 30:27Speaker 01

  So yeah, and again, it's not like, and I'm not saying it's not my fault because you give me too much. I'm not saying that. I'm saying like, not everyone, me, I'm talking about me. Not everyone's as organized as maybe you, you know? So they're gonna need some micromanagement in this particular way, you know? Maybe, because maybe that's it. I mean, I, I think the tone here, the question could be me. Totally could be me, mystery.

• 30:50Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 30:50Speaker 01

  But it kind of seems like, hey, they said they got it and they didn't get it. What more do you want from me?

• 30:57Jocko Willink?

  No.

• 30:57Speaker 01

  Kind of thing, you know?

• 30:58Jocko Willink?

  That's a good, that's a good way of putting it. And I just gave the list of what more you can do.

• 31:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 31:01Jocko Willink?

  You can spell it out for them. You can micromanage. You can check and do check-ins with them. Do all those things.

• 31:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:09Jocko Willink?

  Next question.

• 31:10Speaker 01

  Next question. You must have strong feelings about current events and politics generally, given your experience. Yet you remain silent on this issue. Why? To appeal to a larger audience or the soldier's mentality of not criticizing the commander in chief? Is that why?

• 31:28Jocko Willink?

  Do I have strong feelings on current events and politics? Uh, sure, I do, but

• 31:40Jocko Willink?

  they're more broad. So I have very strong, broad feelings on current events and politics. I am a patriotic person. I believe very strongly in individual freedoms of human beings. I believe in having a very strong military. I believe in having a small government. So I have strong feelings about those things. However,

• 32:05Jocko Willink?

  I don't have strong feelings about the nonsense and micro dramas that are on the 24 hour news cycle. That are just constant, and social media, just constant things. And we talked about this last podcast, things that don't matter. So much of the current events don't really matter in the big picture to me or even to the country.

• 32:35Jocko Willink?

  And, you know, I was, uh, on Ben Shapiro's show. And, you know, he was, I basically said, look, like, like, overall, Americans have sort of the same goals. And he said, I don't know if I believe that. And I said, well, I work with all kinds of companies with people all over the country. And the people that a guy like Ben Shapiro hears from, he's just, he's just bombarded by the extremes on both sides 24 hours a day. I don't want to be in that position of getting bombarded by these extremes 24 hours a day. I said, Ben, you're right. There are some people in the country that believe the far left or the far right.

• 33:17Jocko Willink?

  I said, most people are concerned about their life and doing a good job and, you know, building their business or, you know, paying down their mortgage. That's what they're concerned about. And so they're not like freaking out about the little, every little micro drama that gets unleashed into the press and social media every single day. And so, so why do I not join into that? Cause I don't want to join into that. And also I don't want to make a podcast. I don't want to spend all my time making a podcast that's, that's out of date the day it comes out. Like I don't, I don't want to invest my time in that. I don't want to. And guess what? There's, there's literally

• 34:00Jocko Willink?

  giant, multi-billion dollar news media outlets. And guess what they do? That's what they do all day. That's what they do all day. They make a story about this thing and that thing and this thing. I can't react fast enough. It's just dumb. So if we were to be talking about current events, then by the time the podcast comes out, the current event has been over. Some people are listening to this podcast and it's, it's, it's 2022 right now, right now. Some, someone is listening to this podcast right now and it's 2022. No, there's, there's no topic of current events that we could talk about, barely any that actually impact what's happening four years from now. People, I meet people every day now. I meet people that are, that say, hey, oh man, I've been listening to podcasts. I'm on 28.

• 34:46Jocko Willink?

  Um, that's, that's two years ago, right? That's two years ago. What was the, what was the current events two years ago? They were totally different than they are now. So, so there's that. So that's why little current events thing. As far as appealing it to a larger audience, that part of the question.

• 35:06Jocko Willink?

  Well, if my goal was to appeal to a large, larger audience, then I think I actually would talk about the trendy stories of the day and put out little, little clips of soundbites of all this stuff. And instead of, instead of doing what I do now, which is to read a hundred year old out of print books. Like, that's a great way to build an audience. Or let's talk about the Rwandan genocide, or let's talk about the Holocaust, or let's talk about the rape of Nanking, or let's talk about the My Lai massacre. That ought to build a great audience. So, so the idea that, oh, I'm trying to build a larger audience. It's like, no, actually, people that want to listen to this want to listen to it. I'm not trying to, I'm not trying to build an audience by manipulating what, what I'm thinking about. No, I'm actually,

• 35:47Jocko Willink?

  I'm, I'm talking about, and I'm diving into what I find important, and what I think I can learn from. And I get more out of this podcast than anybody. I mean, I know a lot of people say, oh, I've gotten a lot from your podcast. I get more out of it than anybody, because I get to dive deep into this stuff and really look at it. So, no, it's not the trying to appeal to a larger audience. In fact, if I want a larger, larger audience, I do exactly what you're talking about. As far as the soldier's mentality of not criticizing the commander in chief, I actually don't agree. I don't agree that that's a soldier's mentality. And I don't believe that it should be a soldier's mentality. The soldier should question their

• 36:30Jocko Willink?

  leadership. And now, should they do it tactfully? Absolutely. Because I don't want to be surrounded by yes men. That's, that's wrong. Also, if you, what am I trying, this is just a general leadership principle. What have I said a thousand times on this podcast? I'm trying to build a relationship with a person above me in the chain of command. So, when I was in the military, if I wanted to have influence over my boss, over my commander in chief, would I outwardly criticize them and make, make them think, oh, this guy just doesn't like me. I'm going to take my first chance to get rid of him or not promote him. No, I'm actually going to play the game. And I'm going to look and say, okay, boss, hey, I see what you're doing here. I want to support what you're doing. But does this make sense? Could we do it a different way? So I'm trying to build a relationship with my boss up the

• 37:14Jocko Willink?

  chain of command. I'm not trying to ostracize him by, by making him look bad, or by openly criticizing my boss in, in, uh, you know, in the open. Because what have I done? Is my boss going to listen to me? No. Actually, my boss isn't going to listen to me at all. So I don't want to be surrounded by yes men. But at the same time, if someone's making a bad decision, if someone's doing something that's immoral or illegal, I'll call them out on it all day long.

• 37:40Jocko Willink?

  Now, the other thing that happens here is this is a new world and it's a and this is a binary world of sound bites. That's what we've done. We've created this binary binary. World of sound bites. When most answers that you want to give as a human being aren't. One sentence or two sentence on the far left or far right or far light or far dark like there's gonna be, you have to explain things a little bit. More and but when you take these binary sound bites, everyone's immediately thrown into an extreme category. On the far left or the far right. And as soon and here's the bad part. Here's the really bad part. As soon as you get thrown into one of those camps.

• 38:26Jocko Willink?

  Then the other camp stops listening to you completely. They stop listening to you, anything you say. So. You could, you could make a great point, but if you're on the other side. Doesn't matter. No one's listening. They don't want to hear it because you're on the other side. You're the enemy. It's a binary world. You're either with me or against me and there's no in between. So that's kind of what we've created and what I would rather do. Is have people actually listen to what I say broadly and make their own choices rather than me trying to force an opinion down their throat. This is the way it is. This is the way it should be. And by the way, just like leadership, you can't force people. You can't force an opinion down someone's throat. It doesn't work. You can't. It'll work for 30 seconds. It'll work for five minutes. It'll work for five days in a leadership position. Yeah, you better do what I say.

• 39:12Jocko Willink?

  My way is right. Eventually, that kind of leadership does not work. And it's the same thing. With trying to force an opinion down someone's throat. If you listen to what I'm saying. You can form your own opinion and I would rather have you do that because that's going to be stronger than some opinion that I tried to force down your throat. Which doesn't work, by the way. So I would rather people listen to me and not just soundbikes and see where I'm coming from holistically and see where they can agree and disagree and see what feedback they give me because by the way I could be wrong about something which I have no problem with but I would rather do that I would rather have that approach than join the pack whichever

• 39:54Jocko Willink?

  pack that is join the pack on the street and bark loudly like the rest of the dogs. I have no interest in doing that. So, there you go.

• 40:08Speaker 01

  Agreed, dang bro. Yeah, and it's funny man, you're like one of the few people who, I mean, you know, like that whole thing, I mean, to sum that up, I mean, I've heard that before where someone would be like, hey, I'm, you know, I'm like this one, but it's so very, it's so few people that actually do that, the way, the way you do even in real life, like in real life, like you, you don't, even when political stuff will come up, it's real obvious that you didn't jump into any specific group.

• 40:38Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, well, this, this really ties back to last week's podcast of getting involved in things that don't matter. And there is, there's just so much out there that doesn't matter. Now, where you have to be careful is that, that, there's so many things that don't matter, but what I am not saying that little things don't matter. You see what I'm saying? There's a huge disparity between those two things. There's a lot of things that don't matter. What I am not saying is that little things don't matter because there are little things that do matter. And the classic example that we brought up over and over and over again on this podcast is like, oh, the Russian soldiers not shaving in Chechnya and how that led to their eventually, okay, not gonna shave, now we're not gonna clean

• 41:23Jocko Willink?

  our weapons, now, now we're not gonna stay awake on our watch, now we're not gonna execute the missions we're being told to do, now we're getting beat. There are little things that matter. But if I'm barking all day long about things that don't matter, then we have a problem. We have a problem. Now, I'll tell you something else. There's been some issues that have come up lately. There was one issue that I was going to address on the podcast, but, and I still might address it because it's a small problem that I see as being a more significant problem. And if it continues down the road, but luckily, at this point, there's, there's a whole pack of dogs barking about it. It wasn't like, it wasn't like I noticed this problem and no one else saw it.

• 42:07Jocko Willink?

  It was like, I noticed this problem, so did millions of other people. And they, all those dogs start barking. Okay, so now what am I gonna do? Bark with them?

• 42:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:15Jocko Willink?

  It's like, okay, now, if there comes a time where all of a sudden I realize there's one of these small things that matter, or a big things that matter, that I don't see getting the traction that it needs, well then, I will absolutely say, hey, this is what I think about this situation. Generally, there's so many people barking. And they're barking about the same thing. They're barking about a lot of things that don't matter. They're barking about some things that matter. And right now, unless, I mean, what do I say all the time? The less, the less you speak, the more people listen. So if I want to give my, my opinion on the daily news every hour on the hour, no one's listening to anything I've got to say. And then it's a waste.

• 43:00Jocko Willink?

  It's a waste, it's a waste of my time. Because there's more important, there are more important things. When we can, when we can dive into human nature, through the lens of war, through the lens of leadership, through the war of attracity, if we can learn and teach people about the past so that we can prevent it from happening in the future, that to me is infinitely more impactful than barking about some current event that's happening, that's gonna be gone in a week. It's, it's amazing how fa- how fast stuff comes up on the radar. It's all over the headlines and in a week, it's gone. In a week, it's gone. So I'm just not gonna play that game. I have, I, I, I don't. There's no point in doing it.

• 43:38Speaker 01

  That's, that's a really good way to put it. It's like these current events, most of the time seem to be shaped in a way to just- For dogs to bark about, you know, like that's what it is like here and then then they bark and the next thing, you know? Okay, bark about this now.

• 43:53Jocko Willink?

  The the soundbite thing is really interesting too. That everything is a soundbite and it either puts you in one camp or the other camp. And the fact of the matter is, you can't put me in a camp. You can't. Cause I got beliefs that you don't understand. On one side, on the other side.

• 44:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:12Jocko Willink?

  You know, and so you can't talk to me about that kind of thing. You can't, not that you can't talk, you can't put me in a camp. But the instinct of the world right now is take that person and put him in a camp. I'm not going in the camp. That's what's happening. If you want to figure out what I'm thinking, listen to what I'm saying about, listen to what I'm saying in hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of hours where I talk about human nature. Right? If you want to figure that out and then you want to ask me a pointed question about something, cool, ask it. Bring it. If it's something that's gonna, if it's, if it's a bark, if you want me to bark about something, I'm probably not gonna bark about it.

• 44:50Speaker 01

  So what, throwing you in a camp, all you'd have is a whole lot of unhappy campers?

• 44:55Jocko Willink?

  No, you throw me in a camp. If you put me in one camp, the other camp doesn't listen anymore. And that, and that means their minds are closed, so they're not gonna, and, and is, the fact of the matter is, there's, there's good people in, in both camps. And, and both people can be, can be, can change and can, can accept new ideas. If their mind is open, if their mind isn't open, they're just staying in their camp. And everyone else, I mean, when you watch the extremes of either camp right now, it's, it's like, it's like, really? It's, it's bizarro world.

• 45:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's kind of odd, yeah.

• 45:33Jocko Willink?

  So you, you just sit there and say, okay, what, why am I gonna play that game? Let's just become better people that understand people better and will make better, oh, make the place, make the world better.

• 45:45Speaker 01

  Can't disagree.

• 45:46Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 45:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, the whole unhappy campers. That was me more making a joke. I dig it.

• 45:51Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, no, it was a good attempted humor. Well, actually, no, it wasn't. It was a failure, but that's cool.

• 45:57Speaker 01

  Oh, what was the the other point you made? Uh, sometimes it's better to just just try, you know, and

• 46:04Jocko Willink?

  Oh, the humor thing?

• 46:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. See what up. Now I know.

• 46:07Jocko Willink?

  Now you know, don't try that again.

• 46:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:09Jocko Willink?

  No more jokes from Echo Charles.

• 46:11Speaker 01

  Learned from my my mistakes. Anyway, next question.

• 46:16Speaker 01

  What is the best way to break through a plateau in jujitsu? I'm stuck doing the same moves against the same training partners that have the same moves done to me. Beating the same guys and getting beat by the same guys. What should I do? What should he do?

• 46:28Jocko Willink?

  Well, I'll tell you what I would do.

• 46:31Jocko Willink?

  Go on a crazy training binge.

• 46:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:34Jocko Willink?

  Take, take a week off from work and train eight hours a day. Just get crazy. Make sure you're healthy and then take a week off and train eight hours a day like nuts.

• 46:49Jocko Willink?

  That's number one. Number two, you could also opposite, take a short break, take a little time, don't take a long break, take a little step back. That's another option.

• 47:00Jocko Willink?

  Another option is only start working on certain moves, like only utilize one, like, okay, so every time you get arm lock from the bottom of you, you gotta be a guard player, don't play guard anymore.

• 47:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:11Jocko Willink?

  Don't play guard anymore. Uh, start just look, I'm not gonna play guard every time I'm gonna come up and I'm gonna get a, I'm gonna go for a single leg from the bottom like Dean does. I'm gonna do that every time until I start making it work. That's what I'm gonna do. And if I get choked a thousand times, that's fine, because I'm gonna get better at it eventually. And the other thing is train like, you know, you get your little clique of training partners at your gym. Start training with some of the other people that have different body styles and different body shapes. So you get used to, you have to bring out a new part of your game. The first one that I talked about. Training binge, eight hours a day. I know it's hard for people to actually make that happen.

• 47:47Speaker 01

  It's not for everybody.

• 47:48Jocko Willink?

  The the the times that I've done that. The first time I did it, I actually, it was the time that I taught the uh, the Jaco, the jiu-jitsu for offense, the jiu-jitsu offense for combat killing operations, the Jaco course. And I trained these guys, it was a small group, it was like five of us, and we trained all day. And one of the guys was equivalent to me, uh, Dan, he was, like, we were both like blue belts. And so, we, not only we were teaching people, but we were training, long. And like, my jiu-jitsu visibly got better in a, in a five day period. Because I trained super hard for five straight days.

• 48:30Jocko Willink?

  So that's a cool way, you could probably do it for a weekend, you know, probably just like a three, take a Friday off, train Friday, Saturday, Sunday, eight hours a day, work on some stuff. Be careful, you know, because you, you get your overuse injuries and/or you get, when you're tired, you're more likely to get hurt. So you gotta use a little caution, but, those are some good ways to break your plateaus in jiu-jitsu, which we all, we all hit.

• 48:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 48:53Jocko Willink?

  One way to know that you're breaking your plateau is you're gonna get worse first. You're gonna get, you're gonna lose, you're gonna lose to some of these guys that you have been tapping, because you're trying something new.

• 49:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, yeah, that is an indicator for sure. I like the do certain moves, or omit certain moves. Because like, it's a natural thing where like you, when you're, when you're ascending, right, when you're, when you're training, you kind of settle into a certain type of game, you know, so maybe, yeah, you like to play guard a lot, maybe you like to get the triangle from the guard a lot. That's your kind of go-to, you know? Where it becomes sort of this, almost like a muscle memory kind of thing, where it's like boom, you'll pull guard, your routine in a row, no matter who you're going against, it's real similar all the time, right? Um, so yeah, if you start omitting that stuff, where it's like, okay, I'm not, I won't go for that triangle anymore. I'll play guard, but I cannot do the triangle, so it forces you to do other stuff.

• 49:44Speaker 01

  And then sometimes, depending on your experience, you might have two, three, four go-tos, right? So you still, you're still kind of trapped in that same plateau, but if you just omit one move. So in that case, you think of a move that you might notice other people getting a lot, not necessarily on you, but you know, just in general, and be like, hey, that's all I'm gonna do. I can't get any other submission, I can't. I can only do, I don't know, the guillotine, for example, right? Let's say you, you just don't do guillotines that much, or whatever, I know you can't relate to that. But, you say, okay, I'm only going for guillotine. If I'm like in my guard, I can't really like- I can't really get a guillotine from the guard or whatever. Put it this way, if you're not good at guillotines, that'll force you to find ways to get a guillotine.

• 50:27Speaker 01

  It'll just force you. And then if you do that for, I don't know, I would say maybe even like three months, maybe in six months. Brian Sargent was like, hey, yeah, like I, what I did, I, cause he like, he likes to play on top. Smash from the top. He's like, I didn't, for six months, I just didn't play on top. Well, that might've been you who said that. I don't know. One of you guys said that.

• 50:46Jocko Willink?

  That definitely happened with me.

• 50:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:48Jocko Willink?

  It definitely happened with me. I didn't like being on the bottom.

• 50:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:51Jocko Willink?

  And then I just, it's just like, okay.

• 50:53Speaker 01

  Yeah. No sweeps allowed, um, no, like, starting from the top. If you're, if you're starting, you pull guard. That's it. Like, no, that's your rule. And that's the thing. It's hard to like, it's hard to come to training unless you have this plan in your mindset. It's hard to come to training and be like, you know what? I, I think I'm gonna just only play guard today if like you don't like guard. Cause it's like, I don't wanna get like tapped out from everybody, you know, especially when you just got your purple belt. You know, or something like this. It's hard to do that. But yeah, if you just make up your mind, kind of think of it long-term, like I'm playing the long game here. And just only go for that certain move that you wanna get good at. That's all you're doing. It'll, that'll bust you, pass the plateau easy.

• 51:35Jocko Willink?

  It'll, I don't know about easy. It's a good way to work through your plateau.

• 51:40Speaker 01

  But I think that's a very high probability that you'll, you'll get past it.

• 51:43Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 51:44Speaker 01

  And also, uh,

• 51:45Jocko Willink?

  But it's not easy.

• 51:46Speaker 01

  No, no.

• 51:47Jocko Willink?

  Cause you just said blast through your plateau easy. It's not easy.

• 51:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, but,

• 51:50Jocko Willink?

  It's actually hard.

• 51:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. Okay. And, and I dig it.

• 51:54Jocko Willink?

  I just, I just wanna make sure people aren't like, oh, you know, Echo said to just try one move and then it's gonna be easy to break. No, that's actually not true.

• 52:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:01Jocko Willink?

  It's actually hard to, it's A, it's hard to not just resort back to what you're good at. And B, when you don't resort to what you're good at, you get your ass kicked on a regular basis, which is not fun.

• 52:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:11Jocko Willink?

  So it ain't easy.

• 52:12Speaker 01

  Yeah. And that easily could be the two main challenges of going through jujitsu journeys.

• 52:20Speaker 01

  Those two things.

• 52:21Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 52:22Speaker 01

  Arguably. Um, yes, you are right. Correct. That is absolutely correct. If that's what you mean by easy. What I kinda sorta meant was. You're.

• 52:31Jocko Willink?

  There's this surf spot. There's this surf spot that I surf at.

• 52:35Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 52:35Jocko Willink?

  And one of the ways to get out of the water is dangerous, but fast.

• 52:43Speaker 01

  Fast, yeah, I got you.

• 52:44Jocko Willink?

  The other way to get out of the water is mellow, but it's a longer walk. And I was surfing with my buddy, Stoner. And he's like, hey, which way is it easier to get out?

• 52:59Jocko Willink?

  And I said, well, bro, it depends on what you mean by easier.

• 53:02Speaker 01

  What you mean by easy, yes, sir.

• 53:03Jocko Willink?

  Cause one of them's not more than a few steps. Once you're good.

• 53:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:08Jocko Willink?

  But getting good is, getting to that point is, is a challenge. The other way is real easy, but it's a long walk.

• 53:16Jocko Willink?

  So it just depends what you mean by easy.

• 53:18Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. So I mean, to me, probability wise, let's say if you chose to break through your plateau by going to another gym to train with all different guys. That would get you past your plateau. But I think if you did this thing where you omit a certain move, or you just add a move that you're not good, and that's only what, if you did that and really committed to it correctly, which is hard, by the way, mentally, but if you did that, I think, I think. You, the, the probability of you breaking past your plateau and ending up at a further uh place in regards to progress is much higher if you did that.

• 53:50Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 53:50Speaker 01

  That's what I think. And that's what I meant by easy, which I guess, yeah, that I shouldn't use the word easy.

• 53:56Jocko Willink?

  Depends what you mean by easy.

• 53:57Speaker 01

  Depends what you mean by, also, uh, do tournaments, plenty. If you do a lot of tournaments, bro, you'll, you'll bust past, past the plateau.

• 54:04Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Weaknesses will be exposed.

• 54:06Speaker 01

  Yeah. And it's like, you'll, your mind will be way more at ease in training too. It'll be like more open. It's weird.

• 54:14Jocko Willink?

  For sure.

• 54:14Speaker 01

  I think so. Anyway, next question. How do you apply the principle of building a relationship with your boss when your boss doesn't value relationships? For example, he consistently avoids interactions that don't lead directly to a deliverable on a current objective. He avoids all other interactions, such as those that are for the purpose of building relationships and chemistry within the team.

• 54:37Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 54:39Jocko Willink?

  What would I do in that situation? Well, then obviously what I would do is I would build a relationship based on deliverable current objectives. Right? If that's what he's into, I'm gonna make that happen. Like, I'm gonna be the guy that he thinks can get this to happen, and that's what our relationship is gonna be based on, and I'm fine with that. When he wants to talk about work, I'll talk about work. I had bosses like that. I had plenty of bosses like that. And what do you do when you have bosses like that? Play the game. Like, okay, we're gonna, let's just make this happen. Let's do this.

• 55:11Jocko Willink?

  Now, let me say this. Because he isn't personable,

• 55:18Jocko Willink?

  this means that you have to be more personable, not so much with him,

• 55:24Jocko Willink?

  but with the rest of the team, because there's a lacking element within the team that you, as a good team player and team member and leader, whether you're in a positional leadership or just a human leader, you can improve the team by building some of that human connection that bonds the team more. So even though my boss is impersonable and is just about the business, and just about the current objective, that's fine with me. I'm gonna do my best to support him and make him realize that I'm gonna got the guy that's gonna make those objectives work, and I'm gonna build the human connection with the rest of the team, which will make our team stronger. Now, I am not going to

• 56:09Jocko Willink?

  offend my boss by being the guy that is more popular than him. Some people have, some, some people that have the attitude that this individual's talking about, what would you call this person? Just, just like 100% work focused. If I got a guy that's 100% work focused, sometimes that kind of boss finds the person that wants to chat annoying.

• 56:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:32Jocko Willink?

  Right? Annoying.

• 56:37Jocko Willink?

  Which is possible. So you don't wanna, you don't wanna be, you don't wanna annoy the boss and he thinks all this, oh, this guy joggle, he just wants to build friends, he's not here to work. No, you gotta be careful about that. And, and, and the weird thing is honestly, I'm very work focused. I'm very work focused. And I have to like, I don't really have to do anymore, but I used to like, I have to consciously think about, okay, on top of, actually, I still do have to do it sometimes. You know, like, I have to consciously think about like, okay, I also need to like, be nice and build relationship with the person that I don't normally interact with, right? So you, you do have to do that.

• 57:18Jocko Willink?

  So form the relationship with the rest of the team, the good relationship, and then form the best relationship that you can with the boss, and that is gonna help the whole team. That's it. It's as simple as that. And I'll say one more thing about this.

• 57:33Jocko Willink?

  You don't get to pick your leader. Generally, you don't get to pick your leader. But you can pick the relationship that you have with your leader. So if what your leader's into, let's get in the game, let's build a good relationship. Once again, if someone's out there thinking, oh, so you just want me to kiss ass. What I'm saying is not that I want you to kiss ass. I'm saying I want you to win. That's what I'm saying. Because the better relationship you build with your boss, the more influence you have over him, the better chance you have of getting promoted, the better chance you have of accomplishing the mission and taking care of your team. That's, that's the way it works. Why do I wanna get promoted? So I can get more money for myself? No, I wanna get promoted so I can do the mission, so I can take care of my team. That's why I wanna get promoted.

• 58:16Jocko Willink?

  If it was just about, like, taking care of myself, I wouldn't go work for this guy. I'd go find another job and pick a different boss, because you do get to pick your boss, you can quit your job. Quit your day job.

• 58:29Jocko Willink?

  So that's what you do. You build that relationship. Hard as it is. Get some.

• 58:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's a good point with the with the kind of the details of it where you can't just start trying to chat the guy up.

• 58:41Jocko Willink?

  No, he's not. He doesn't like that.

• 58:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, no one does, actually. Even if you're a social person, but you're let's say you're just focused on something, you know? And I don't know, you focus on it and your friend calls you and you're like, oh, they called me. It might be important.

• 58:55Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, why are you talking?

• 58:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, and they're telling you about, you know, the episode of whatever last night and you're like, Brad, I'm working right now.

• 59:02Jocko Willink?

  Brad, don't watch TV. Don't call me again.

• 59:04Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, now you're going to step step further than I had in mind, but I'm just saying that that's annoying no matter who you are. So if you're thinking, you know, this boss is like, he he doesn't like to quote unquote build build relationships and like all this stuff. He's only then you're gonna you run that risk of annoying him.

• 59:19Jocko Willink?

  Yes, you gotta be. That's why I said you gotta be careful.

• 59:21Speaker 01

  That's a big step backwards.

• 59:21Jocko Willink?

  Dichotomy. This is a dichotomy.

• 59:23Speaker 01

  But there's little and usually it has to do with time too, you know? So if you go in and you just go just little digs of like relationship building stuff, but not don't take, don't go in there and be like, hey, did you catch the game last night? Don't do that stuff.

• 59:35Jocko Willink?

  I don't want to talk about the game. I don't care.

• 59:38Speaker 01

  But, you know, I don't know. Nice tie. Boom, out, you know, kind of thing. I don't know. Don't say nice tie. I don't know.

• 59:44Jocko Willink?

  No, don't.

• 59:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. Next question.

• 59:46Jocko Willink?

  The guy that's a high level worker does not want to hear about his tie. Does not care about his tie.

• 59:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:53Jocko Willink?

  That actually annoys a lot of people.

• 59:55Speaker 01

  But, yeah, and I don't know, I haven't been in the corporate scenario with I think my whole life, but so I don't know, that just seemed like something on the movies they might say.

• 1:00:03Jocko Willink?

  A long thing about your shirt.

• 1:00:06Speaker 01

  That wasn't corporate. That was in a nightclub, but yeah.

• 1:00:09Jocko Willink?

  Leadership.

• 1:00:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, same kind for sure. And the point is, there's things you can say that don't take up his time and necessarily his his full attention to annoy him that you can say or do. That's what I'm saying. I don't know what that is, because I don't I don't I don't work with you guys, but.

• 1:00:26Jocko Willink?

  Check.

• 1:00:27Speaker 01

  Next question. Hey, Jocko, my boss is trying to implement, I say boss because it's highlighted, my boss.

• 1:00:33Jocko Willink?

  I don't know why it's highlighting all my bosses.

• 1:00:39Speaker 01

  Well, it works, man.

• 1:00:40Jocko Willink?

  Somebody was talking about on social media about how you said peas. Feel like I went to the grocery store, I got some peas. Uh, yeah, I mean, hey, you know?

• 1:00:50Speaker 01

  It's a, you know, variable thing. I don't know why I say that. Nonetheless-

• 1:00:54Jocko Willink?

  Variable escalation.

• 1:00:55Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:00:57Speaker 01

  My boss is trying to implement a process that I see the end result not being what is needed. And I have proposed an alternative that is proven and will add value to the company. Do I give up trying to position to get the outcome we need? Or do I commit to help implement his process and wait for the outcome, then try again?

• 1:01:20Speaker 01

  It is a relatively small failure in the big picture outcome, but would like some input on how to get the results we need long term.

• 1:01:29Jocko Willink?

  Very cool question. And so, yeah, you got a scenario where your boss wants to do something. You know, you got a better idea that'll work better. What do you do? Well, first of all, any way that I can make my idea and his idea, that's what I'm gonna try and do. So you have to be careful. And again, I don't know, your boss might be an open-minded person. If you've got a good leader, you can go in there and say, hey, boss, this is what you're trying to make happen. I think this will work better. And your boss may go, oh, wow, that's a great, that's a great idea. You know what? Let's go with it. That, there's, there's leaders like that out there that make it happen. You're probably not asking this question if you have that kind of boss. You're probably talking about someone that has a little bit more ego, thinks they, thinks they know a little bit more, not really open-minded to new ideas. And that's why making your idea into his idea is gonna be a better option.

• 1:02:12Jocko Willink?

  Don't try and force your idea. And one thing you could do is you could, you could ask questions. And, and I've talked about this before, but like, you say something like, you know, hey, hey, boss, I want to make sure that I'm supporting this in the best way possible. So I really want to understand this fully. So can you explain this here to me and why we're doing it like that? And then, you know, you have a conversation with your boss and then you go, oh. And maybe your boss has some good points that you didn't understand. Or maybe that opens the door for you to say, hey, boss, the way that this other group is doing it is like this. Do you think we could try that? Or you say, if you want to ego him up a little bit, it's like, hey, boss, you know, I don't, I don't fully understand this, you know, as well as you do. Could you just help me understand why we're doing it this way? And then, once again, what you're doing is you're starting a conversation.

• 1:02:57Jocko Willink?

  If you can't get the message across in that indirect manner, you can be a little bit more direct, but be careful when you're direct with people. They dig in, man. They dig in, especially with anyone with any kind of Edo, ego. They dig in. You tell them your idea and they just, all of a sudden, they, they come up with reasons not to do it. And you have to be careful. That's why you have to use caution when you reveal your plan.

• 1:03:26Jocko Willink?

  It's, it's better to not even reveal it as your plan. It's better to reveal it as like an idea and then let it become their plan. Don't reveal your emotions. Okay. Now if all that fails, this guy's just dead set in, hey, we're no, we're doing it my way. Shut up, Echo. We're not, we're not listening to your plan. We're doing it my way. Then what you do? Yeah. You go all in. You support it the best of your ability. You, you try and learn what they want. You try and execute what they want. You try and understand what they want better than anyone else, including him. So that way you go out, you execute, you know where all the weaknesses are. Now you learn and now you can come back with a better argument or a better seed to plant in their head. Hey boss, I know your plan. It's working really, really well.

• 1:04:08Jocko Willink?

  One thing that we could do to make it even better, I think, what do you think of this? If we did XYZ instead of X Y B? I think it might work a little bit better. What do you think? And then you, again, you, you plant this, you plant the team and maybe, I mean, you plant the seed and maybe you can incorporate, you know, there's times where, there's times where I did this. Oh, that's what you want to do, boss? Cool. Got it. Yep. That's what we're gonna do. Go and do something. Same result, get the same result, but do it a different way. You know, it's the ask for, better to ask for forgiveness than. Right. Permiss. Yeah. Then, then permission. So sometimes it's like, it's like the, again, we're going back to the idea of things that don't matter.

• 1:04:48Jocko Willink?

  If my boss wants me to do it one way and I can do it just a little bit different and no one's gonna know and it's gonna be all good and our results gonna be the better or the same. I'm probably just gonna be like, hey, boss, I got it. And then, hey, boss, on the fly, we made a little call here. We went with A Y B. Or, you know, Z D A instead of Z D B. I, I hope it's not, you know, bad, but here's the results. By the way, we, we did it in even shorter time. And the boss goes, oh yeah, that's cool. It's no big deal. Cause he sees the results and he wants to take a little bit of credit for them. So. Again, what's this about? This is about building the relationship. So, let me ask you this. This is important. A good question to ask yourself. Will, what will help the team more?

• 1:05:32Jocko Willink?

  What will help the team more? Will it help the team more to disrupt the relationship and undermine the boss? Will that, will that help the team? No. Will it help the team if you create an antagonistic relationship with your boss? No, that won't help your team. Will it help your team if you build a relationship with your boss? If you unify the team? If you strengthen the team and you bring everyone together? Will that help the team? Yes, it'll help the team. Will that build a relationship with your boss? Yes, it'll build a relationship with your boss. If you have a better relationship with your boss? Is your boss more likely to accept the influence that you're throwing at him? Yes, absolutely. So, I think that's something you can ask yourself a lot.

• 1:06:14Jocko Willink?

  Is what I am trying to do gonna help the team or hurt the team? And you actually have to look at those two in the long term and the short term. Because sometimes you do something that hurts the team right now and it'll help the team later. Like, for instance, hey, we're gonna fire a guy. Everyone loves him, but it's gonna disrupt the team, but long term, we'll be better off. Sometimes that works. Sometimes it's like, we're gonna fire this guy. Everyone loves him, and it's gonna be a long-term down. It's gonna be a long-term detriment that you made this call. So, you have to check yourself and check what's gonna help. The long-term, short-term of the team, is it gonna make it better? Is it gonna make it worse? In this case, try to make your plan your boss's plan. If you can't, then support, build relationships, and influence over the long-term.

• 1:06:58Jocko Willink?

  Especially because this guy, very smart to mention that this is a relatively small failure. Like, this isn't a huge risk. Doesn't, you can, hey, boss, you know what? We got it done, didn't quite come the same way. Here's where we're going. So, very good question.

• 1:07:14Speaker 01

  Next question. Similar question.

• 1:07:17Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, this is why I grouped this one together too. We had a couple grouped questions. This is one of them.

• 1:07:21Speaker 01

  Jocko, I was wondering what your advice is for disagreeing up the chain of command? Obviously, this needs to be done with some tact, i.e. in private, not in front of others. But in those private conversations, how should one respectfully disagree?

• 1:07:35Jocko Willink?

  Again, again, similar question. A better technique than disagreeing is just to ask questions. You know, "Boss, hey, I want to make sure I get this right. Can you explain it to me again? Can you, can you watch me do it?" Right? So your boss actually sees what the problem is. Uh, that way, you're, you're not being offensive. "Hey, boss, can you explain why you chose this course of action? I really want to learn from, from what you do, what you, the way you do it."

• 1:08:04Jocko Willink?

  I, again, does that sound like a kiss ass? Yes, because I'm exaggerating. You know what I mean? "Hey, boss, you're so incredibly smart." No, I'm not talking about that because bosses don't like ass kisses, at least good bosses. Good bosses don't. And actually, even good bosses, they might keep their kiss asses around, but they don't respect them. So you don't gain influence by being a kiss ass. It's not a good situation. So I'm not talking about kissing ass, but you know, "Hey, boss, I really want to understand this and make sure I understand it. Can you, can you explain to me why this is the best way to make this, to do this? Versus the other way?" You know, that's the kind of question. That's not kissing ass. That's actually, you know, it is actually legitimately wanting to know.

• 1:08:43Speaker 01

  Well.

• 1:08:43Jocko Willink?

  Like, I legitimately want to know, maybe, you, what if we, instead of assuming that we know better than our boss? What if we assume that my boss knows better than me? Let's make that assumption. And if you communicate with that assumption, then you're probably going to communicate in a much better way than communicating with the assumption that my boss is an idiot and I know better than him.

• 1:08:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:09:00Jocko Willink?

  Which is not a good way to communicate.

• 1:09:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:09:04Speaker 01

  It's funny when you, now that you kind of said that about the kiss ass guy. Cause that comes up a lot. Cause I don't wanna be kiss ass. And yeah, you don't. The kiss ass guy is the same thing as being friend zoned. You know what friend zone mean?

• 1:09:16Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I do.

• 1:09:17Speaker 01

  It's the same thing.

• 1:09:18Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:18Speaker 01

  So like, the girl, right? Typically, it's a guy who gets friend zoned, right? Cause he's like too nice, he's too nice, he's too whatever, he'll, it's, he's like, he's essentially a-

• 1:09:29Jocko Willink?

  You're like a brother to me.

• 1:09:30Speaker 01

  An intimate yes man, that's what he is. So of course, the girl's gonna keep him around for all this like good feeling superficially, by the way.

• 1:09:36Jocko Willink?

  I didn't mention lunch.

• 1:09:37Speaker 01

  All that stuff, all the superficial stuff. He's not gonna get anywhere of legitimacy with her. Actual decision makings, if you translate that into the, you know, work environment or whatever. Where yeah, the boss, I mean, a certain kind of boss, just like a certain girl's gonna keep a guy around for that reason. Certain boss is gonna be like, yeah, I'll keep him around. I feel a little bit bad even firing the guy like that, a little bit, cause he's just so nice to me. Gives me all these compliments. And even, in, in a, in a weird way, I think the kiss ass guy kinda knows that too. You know, like, how, why would he ever fire me? Even though he's not that good at his job, or whatever, right? Because, you know, he can't fire me, I'm just too nice to him, you know, there's, that feeling is floating around, is what I'm saying. But it's the same deal, right? Like, it's too many compliments, just too much of a yes man.

• 1:10:21Speaker 01

  I'll keep you around for very superficial reasons, but that's it, brother. You, you don't get past-

• 1:10:28Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's, and that's not a good-

• 1:10:29Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:10:30Jocko Willink?

  -place to be in.

• 1:10:30Speaker 01

  No, it's not, sir.

• 1:10:32Jocko Willink?

  That's why I'm not saying kiss ass. And, and the way I just explained that of, of actually assuming that your boss knows more than you is, is a good way to approach the situation. As opposed to approaching the situation like you know more than your boss.

• 1:10:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:10:45Jocko Willink?

  Why act like that? Dude, the outcome isn't gonna be inferior. The outcome is inferior. The outcome of, of acting like your boss, or assuming that your boss knows more than you, the outcome is you treat them with respect. Cause the other way, you could try and treat him with expect, uh, respect, but inadvertently, you sound like, you know, some people, I just, we, we talk about normal face, right? Some people, they cannot even ask a question.

• 1:11:12Jocko Willink?

  In a respectful way, right? They can't even, what was I saying over here? They can't even say, you know, hey, boss, can you explain this to me? Cause I really want to, they can't even say that, you know? Hey, boss, can you explain this to me? Cause this doesn't make any sense. You know what I mean? Like they can't even, they can't even ask a question in a respectful way. That's a skill you should master as a leader and as a follower. As a leader and as a follower, how to ask questions in a respectful way. Leif pointed this out. Leif pointed out, we were talking about the fact of, of, I would say, it's a story he's told a bunch of times of going through the kill house and he's in the back of the train. And you shouldn't be in the back of the train. You should be somewhere where you can lead everyone.

• 1:11:57Jocko Willink?

  Cause when you're in the back of the train, you don't know what's happening in the front of the train. Of assaulters, a big group of people moving through a kill house. And I didn't, and he goes, you know, Jaco didn't say, hey, stop doing that and do it this other way. He's like, he asked me questions and he's like, they were real questions. I wasn't like, hey Leif, why the hell are you in the back of the train? Is that a respectful question? No, it's not a respectful question. But it's like, hey Leif, what are you doing in the back of the train? This is a respectful question. I, I'm actually assuming that maybe Leif, who doesn't have the experience that I have, who's my subordinate as a platoon commander, to me, the big task unit commander. My assumption is not that I know more than him. My assumption is that he's got a reason for that. My assumption is that he knows more than me. Which, well, this is one of the, one of Jordan Peterson's 12 rules for life.

• 1:12:41Jocko Willink?

  It's like, uh, I think it's assume the person that you're talking to knows more than you. What I'm saying is the same thing, up and down the chain of command. You assume that your boss or your subordinate knows something that you don't know. And if you can, if you can ask questions in that way, instead of asking questions, boss, what are we doing this for? Or Leif, why are you doing that? Leif, why are you in the back of the train? That's stupid. No, it's like, hey Leif, why are you in the back of the train? What do you, what is, what is your purpose of being back there? I, I genuinely, genuinely want to know. And, and this isn't like, I'm not even saying I'm acting like that. I truly genuinely want to know what the deal is.

• 1:13:20Jocko Willink?

  So make the assumption up and down the chain of command that your boss, your subordinate knows more than you. And then ask good questions with true, genuine curiosity that you want to know the answers to.

• 1:13:37Jocko Willink?

  It's a good way to go about it.

• 1:13:41Jocko Willink?

  Next question.

• 1:13:42Speaker 01

  Next question. I'm a young warehouse manager that takes ownership for anything and everything that goes wrong. This seems to offend my coworkers. How can I fix it?

• 1:13:55Jocko Willink?

  Um, okay. Classic dichotomy leadership quest right there. You've gone too far. That's what's happened. You've gone too far. So what you have to be, what you have to do is don't be offensive when you take ownership. When you take ownership, you can't be offensive. When you take ownership, some people get offended by that. So when you say, hey, you know what? This is mine. I got this. That bothers some people. When you say, you know what? This is my fault and I'm gonna fix it. That, even that offends some people.

• 1:14:32Speaker 01

  What, the tone?

• 1:14:33Jocko Willink?

  Just the tone of like, no, this is, hey, my fault. I got this. And you do that three, three times, four times, five times and then all of a sudden goes, oh, what? Everything's his fault. Now he's gotta fix everything. They, he doesn't think I can fix it.

• 1:14:45Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:14:46Jocko Willink?

  You can offend people with eh, with, with all kinds of stuff. You don't have to work very hard to offend people. I mean, there's people get offended when you say something nice to them. You know what I mean?

• 1:14:57Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:14:57Jocko Willink?

  You know what I mean?

• 1:14:58Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:14:59Jocko Willink?

  I was watching, uh, I met, I met, you ever seen the yoga dude that does like yoga videos? He's got red hair. His name is Spears.

• 1:15:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:15:10Jocko Willink?

  I met him just randomly, uh, getting off a plane. But he's, he, what I.

• 1:15:15Speaker 01

  Is it Spears or Sears?

• 1:15:16Jocko Willink?

  Sears. I think it's Sears.

• 1:15:19Speaker 01

  Maybe Spears.

• 1:15:19Jocko Willink?

  What did I say? Spears?

• 1:15:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:15:21Jocko Willink?

  I don't know.

• 1:15:21Speaker 01

  I know the guy though.

• 1:15:22Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:23Speaker 01

  It's a spiritual AF on his show.

• 1:15:25Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Very funny guy, very cool guy. And I was, once I met him, I was laughing. I was checking out a couple of his videos, but one of them was, you know, how to be offended.

• 1:15:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:15:35Jocko Willink?

  At all things. And it's, it's hilarious. Because that's exactly what people, the people, some people can get offended by anything.

• 1:15:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:15:44Jocko Willink?

  So.

• 1:15:46Jocko Willink?

  That's what you gotta watch out for. Even when you're taking ownership, people can actually be offended by that if you go too far. So instead of overtly stepping up and taking ownership in this particular case, and you can tell what's going on here. My brother here, young warehouse manager, he's fired up. He wants to make things happen. He wants to get after it. And so what does he do? He's like, oh, I read Extreme Ownership. I'm gonna take ownership of everything. And that's a great attitude to have. Except for you can offend people when you go too far. Cause you gotta read the second book that I got of leadership. So that you can, you can balance that out a little bit. So instead of saying like, hey, this is mine. I'm gonna take ownership of this and make it happen. Instead, you know, you look at someone, you say, hey, you know what? Do you want me to take care of this?

• 1:16:31Jocko Willink?

  Or hey, you know what? That's probably in my department. You want me to take care of that? So that way, or like, hey, it seems like this should be something I should take care of. You want me to handle that? Instead of me, me, me, me. I got asked a question the other day at a Q and A. And the question started off with, the person started the question with, I've got the most, I've got the question that everyone in here needs answered. So, so, so out of the gate, I was like, okay, so we have a situation here, right? Because that immediately tells you that in that person's head, they've got, they've, they've got the question that everyone needs answered. So there's already an ego scenario happening, like out of the gate. So,

• 1:17:17Jocko Willink?

  same thing here. You don't know if you're gonna touch someone's egos, right? So when you say, look, this is my deal and I'm gonna fix it. Like, some people will take offense to that. So again, you soften those a little bit. Try and give credit up the chain of command, right? Try and give credit down the chain of command. Instead of, I'll take ownership of this. It's like, hey, we got, what if you say we? When, when credit gets dulled out, get past that credit on, pass it to your peers, pass it to your subordinates, pass it to your boss.

• 1:17:46Jocko Willink?

  So that's it. Take ownership. What you need to do at this point, young man, is take ownership of being offensive.

• 1:17:54Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:17:55Jocko Willink?

  And when you do that, you're gonna be less offensive, you're gonna be more covert. Hey, guess, remember I said earlier, like, you don't get to pick the boss, you, you don't get to pick your boss. You, but you get to pick the relationship you have with them. You don't get to pick your, your peers. You don't get to pick your subordinates. You get your team.

• 1:18:15Jocko Willink?

  Hey, can you pick them? Yes, you can quit your job. Can you hire the right people? Yes, you can. But, look, what you got is what you got. You gotta work with it. You don't, everyone, man, I wish everyone was more fired up like I am. Like, that's not gonna go well. You know, it's great that you wish that. That's not gonna go well. What you have to do is you gotta, you gotta, you gotta...

• 1:18:38Jocko Willink?

  Here's another one. This is similar, right?

• 1:18:41Speaker 01

  Millennials.

• 1:18:45Jocko Willink?

  Well, hey, one of the things, one of the things, this is a very simple, you know, I've done the millennium questions a thousand times. And, you know, the Vietnam veterans, the Vietnam draftees compared to the, like, hey, we can talk about that again, we don't need to. But, if you've got a, if you're in charge of millennials,

• 1:19:01Jocko Willink?

  and you think to yourself, millennials thinks everything's, they think everything centers around them. Well, what do you do as a leader? You know what I do as a leader? I make everything center around them. And then they perform, and then they get after it. And as they grow up, they learn that everything doesn't center around them, but I bring them there. Why? Because I form a relationship. Why? Because I listen to them. Why? Because I understand them.

• 1:19:23Jocko Willink?

  So you don't get the team that you want, you don't get the boss that you want. What you do is you play the game up and down the chain of command and form relationships up and down the chain of command that you want. What relationships do you want from up the chain of command? You want them to listen to you, you want them to give you what you need, you want them to get out of your way? And let you do the mission. What about down the chain of command? You want them to support what's happening. You want them to get after their job. You want them to step up and lead. That's what you want. If you have an antagonistic relationship because your millennials think everything's about them, well, then guess what? You're not gonna be able to have any influence on them, any real influence. You can have the imposed will on them.

• 1:20:05Jocko Willink?

  But the imposed will is a, is a paper tiger, right? It's not real. It only lasts when you're there. And guess what they're doing? They're looking for another job.

• 1:20:18Jocko Willink?

  So, take ownership of being offensive and be less offensive and more covert. And you know what, bro? Young warehouse manager, keep getting after it and it will pay off. And the fact that you're fired up and you're crushing it, crush it with a little bit more tact and you're gonna, one day you're gonna be making it happen.

• 1:20:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:20:38Jocko Willink?

  We got time for, uh, one more question?

• 1:20:41Speaker 01

  Yeah. To add though, a little tip, I think that, I think you taught this to, actually I realized this when I embraced extreme ownership. You can't say, "Hey, I'm gonna take extreme ownership of this." Like it's, it's one of those things, it's like, just like taking the high ground, right? You get in like, a thing with somebody.

• 1:20:58Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:20:59Speaker 01

  You can't say,

• 1:20:59Jocko Willink?

  I'm gonna take the high ground.

• 1:21:01Speaker 01

  And then it doesn't work like that, like it ruins it.

• 1:21:04Jocko Willink?

  You just gave up the high ground when you announced that you were taking the high ground.

• 1:21:06Speaker 01

  Gave it up, exactly right. Same thing with extreme ownership, like in these situations.

• 1:21:10Jocko Willink?

  That's a very good point, Echo Charles.

• 1:21:11Speaker 01

  And the thing is, I get it, man. When you're like, you know, I'm taking, and he even said, "I take ownership of anything and everything." That goes wrong, anything, like straight up, he's your guy, right? So it might indicate, I'm not saying he's doing this, but he could be going, "Hey guys, no worries. I'm taking extreme ownership of this situation." You know, like if you say that kind of stuff, yeah, I could see that would rub somebody.

• 1:21:30Jocko Willink?

  What's odd, and this is a very good thing to understand about human nature. Everyone's jealous of you. Everyone's jealous of each other. Everyone's jealous of everyone else. No one wants you to win. Right? It's just like, so when this guy is stepping up, the, the, the crowd starts to pick at him. They start to pick at him and they wanna pick him, they wanna pull him apart. That's generally what the crowd wants to do to you. When you step up, when you elevate yourself, generally the crowd wants to pick at you and pull you back down.

• 1:22:01Speaker 01

  Who does he think he is?

• 1:22:02Jocko Willink?

  Exactly, exactly. So if you're aware of that, then you can combat it by when, instead of elevating yourself i- in an overt manner where everyone can see you saying, "I'm gonna take ownership of this right now and get it solved." No. Usually if I can say, "Hey, you know what?" This is probably my fault. Do you want me to, let me try and take some time and get it fixed? Everyone goes, they're actually kinda happy. They're like, "Yeah, it was your fault." They're kinda like, it's okay with them. Whereas opposed to, "I'm gonna take ownership." This is dichotomy leadership. You read Extreme Ownership, awesome. You gotta read dichotomy too.

• 1:22:44Speaker 01

  When something goes wrong, I freeze up. Opposite of the other guy. I freeze up. I get stagnant. I don't wanna move. I just ask myself, "Why me?" I've tried saying "good," but it's not getting me moving forward. Any advice?

• 1:23:02Jocko Willink?

  You ask yourself, "Why me?"

• 1:23:08Jocko Willink?

  So...

• 1:23:10Jocko Willink?

  Saying "good," that should fix your attitude. But that alone, that alone will not fix your problems.

• 1:23:24Jocko Willink?

  If you're having problems, sure. Say "good." That's perfect. But then, don't ask yourself, "Why me?"

• 1:23:37Jocko Willink?

  Instead, ask yourself, "Now what am I going to do about it?"

• 1:23:43Jocko Willink?

  What are you going to do about it? Ask yourself that question.

• 1:23:48Jocko Willink?

  And then, figure it out. Figure out what you're going to do. Say to yourself, "I am going to detach." "I am going to assess the situation." "I am going to come up with a plan and I am going to execute."

• 1:24:08Jocko Willink?

  And then,

• 1:24:11Jocko Willink?

  start moving. It's not gonna be a perfect plan, but take action. Action that moves you in a positive direction.

• 1:24:23Jocko Willink?

  And if it ends up being the wrong direction, that's fine.

• 1:24:27Jocko Willink?

  At least you've learned where not to go.

• 1:24:33Jocko Willink?

  Now, where this gets tough is if it is something that seems like it's completely out of your control. And you know what? Some things are completely out of your control, and that's fine. And when that happens, you ask yourself, what can I control? What can I control that will make this situation a little bit better? And then you go.

• 1:25:14Jocko Willink?

  Don't get crushed by things going wrong. Ask yourself, what am I going to do? And then go. Do it. And I think that's all I've got for tonight. So, Echo Charles, speaking of moving in the right direction.

• 1:25:42Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:25:43Jocko Willink?

  I know you've got some things that can help us move in the right direction. What do you got for us?

• 1:25:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, okay. So, do jiu-jitsu. That's it.

• 1:25:51Jocko Willink?

  That's a good one.

• 1:25:52Speaker 01

  So, the path has, what, many directions, but it's all in the same general direction. It's improvement.

• 1:25:58Jocko Willink?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:25:59Speaker 01

  It's improvement.

• 1:26:00Jocko Willink?

  There's different roads on the path.

• 1:26:02Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:26:03Jocko Willink?

  Which is a really weird thing to say.

• 1:26:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's more of a gentle thing. Anyway, but jiu-jitsu is universal, in my opinion. I'm assuming in your opinion too, where if you're not doing jiu-jitsu, more so than I would say, like, that's terrible. I'm not gonna say that. But I'm saying, if you go through life and not do jiu-jitsu, and you're on the path, you might be left, maybe, missing out.

• 1:26:27Jocko Willink?

  You know what's really cool about this podcast?

• 1:26:30Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:26:31Jocko Willink?

  And about people listening to this podcast?

• 1:26:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:26:33Jocko Willink?

  And about people starting jiu-jitsu. This is the coolest thing. Two years ago, I would have been like, hey, you know, you should try jujitsu. It's really good. But I couldn't like confirm how universal so many people I just so many people after they take their first class or the first nine classes or first three classes. They're like, I'm addicted.

• 1:26:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:26:55Jocko Willink?

  Why is that? Cause there's something special about jujitsu. So you should train it.

• 1:26:59Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. When you can draw them the the parallels, the meta, it's a metaphor for like, Dean Lister told me that early on, actually.

• 1:27:06Jocko Willink?

  Oh, interesting. Dean Lister, philosopher.

• 1:27:09Speaker 01

  It is. And Andre Gavau illustrated some points and a big one that Andre Gavau said that I will never forget is like, jujitsu is like, is life. So consider jujitsu. Like if you turn your back on your problems in jujitsu.

• 1:27:21Jocko Willink?

  They're gonna get worse.

• 1:27:22Speaker 01

  And let's face it, that's in especially early on, that's how you get a guy to turn, that's how you get a choke, right? When you're mounted on somebody, you slap him in the face. Why? Why? If you get slapped in the face, what do you want to do? Turn your back, right? Like, oh, don't slap my face. That's how you get the choke. So Andre Gavau said in jujitsu, you turn your back and you give your back to your opponent. That's the worst thing you can do, but it's hard to face them usually. You gotta work, you know? Same thing in life, man. Turn your back on your problems. Those problems are gonna get you.

• 1:27:49Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. And you've heard me say that at the muster.

• 1:27:52Speaker 01

  Yes, sir.

• 1:27:52Jocko Willink?

  You turn your back on your problems. They don't go away. They actually get worse. And it's the same exact thing in jujitsu. Yes.

• 1:27:59Speaker 01

  Getting bigger behind your back.

• 1:28:01Jocko Willink?

  So it's cool now to get feedback from thousands of people that have now gotten in the jujitsu game and the feedback. I've got probably, I think, three people out of many, many. And this isn't one of yours where you say like a lot of people and it's like four. I'm talking thousands of people. I've gotten three that don't like jujitsu. That they just don't like it. And that's why I came up with the rule. Okay, if you don't like it, that's fine. Train at least until you've submitted someone that's kind of equivalent. And then you can stop.

• 1:28:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:28:36Jocko Willink?

  And the reason I think, I think that's actually once you do that, you'll, you'll understand jujitsu. Cause sometimes you just don't even understand it.

• 1:28:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:28:42Jocko Willink?

  Sometimes people just can't comprehend it. They can't comprehend what's happening and it's just too much.

• 1:28:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:28:49Jocko Willink?

  There's too much.

• 1:28:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:28:51Jocko Willink?

  And so they don't want to do it.

• 1:28:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:28:53Jocko Willink?

  But if you do it long enough that you submit someone, then you get that little like, wow. It's incredible like at the muster when you when you show the connection of two moves.

• 1:29:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:29:05Jocko Willink?

  This like it's like amazing.

• 1:29:07Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:29:08Jocko Willink?

  And then when you try and explain that every move is connected that way. Cause that's a big.

• 1:29:14Speaker 01

  Network of connections.

• 1:29:15Jocko Willink?

  Big network, but but people don't understand that jujitsu is not just moves.

• 1:29:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:29:21Jocko Willink?

  That it's all this grouped thing together, this symphony of movement.

• 1:29:27Speaker 01

  Language that's good.

• 1:29:28Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:29Speaker 01

  Anyway, when you do it, you're gonna need a gi, because you're gonna do gi and no gi. So gi and rashgar, that's the uniform, we'll call it a uniform.

• 1:29:37Jocko Willink?

  Sure.

• 1:29:38Speaker 01

  So you go to Origin, because you're gonna get an Origin gi. It's the best one.

• 1:29:42Jocko Willink?

  OriginMaine.com. Sometimes we forget to say that. Which is not good.

• 1:29:46Speaker 01

  I feel like I forget to say that the name is Origin. We I say Origin Maine.

• 1:29:51Jocko Willink?

  Oh, okay.

• 1:29:52Speaker 01

  So cool, but you you'll yeah, you'll you'll come to realize that it's very obvious that Origin is the only kind of gi that you'll want slash need. I'm made in America, by the way. The threads are made in America.

• 1:30:04Jocko Willink?

  Throw that out there, just like, oh, by the way, like it's made in America. No, it's not just something you throw out there.

• 1:30:08Speaker 01

  It's a big deal.

• 1:30:09Jocko Willink?

  We're talking about a loom.

• 1:30:12Speaker 01

  Multiple looms, actually.

• 1:30:14Jocko Willink?

  I actually had this, uh. So I was talking to, is actually my literary agent.

• 1:30:20Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:30:20Jocko Willink?

  And I was like, well, you know, I said, it turns out, um. You know, they're not, they can't put out Mikey and the Dragons before November, so I'm just gonna, you know, miss make this book myself. I'm starting a publishing company.

• 1:30:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:30:31Jocko Willink?

  And she's like, um. Well, you know, a lot of people try that, but you know, it's there's a lot more to it. You know, it's really hard.

• 1:30:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:30:40Jocko Willink?

  And I was like, okay, cool. Do you know what a loom is? I go, my friends up in Maine brought a loom back from the grave. And weave material from cotton and nylon to sew together.

• 1:30:54Speaker 01

  The loom weighs nine thousand pounds, by the way.

• 1:30:55Jocko Willink?

  Nine thousand pounds, it has five million threads in going into it. It's got it's got millions of parts inside of it. It was rusted. You're gonna tell me we can't get photocopy some stuff and put it out in a book? I got this. I got this. Don't, don't, and it's funny because I told that to Brian and Pete. I was, I was laughing so hard because, because really, what's, what, I don't even know if I could think of something harder. Than saying, oh, we're gonna drag a loom out of a damn abandoned factory in Lewiston, Maine. One loom left. The rest of them have been sent overseas during the economic downturn.

• 1:31:33Jocko Willink?

  Oh, we'll just, we'll just outsource. Never mind outsource. We're just gonna send our bread and butter, our American hardware overseas and let someone else make it. There was one loom left. And guess what? We got it.

• 1:31:45Speaker 01

  Origin.

• 1:31:46Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. So you're telling me that we can take this old loom that's 30 years old, that hasn't been run, that's rusted and dirty and abandoned and bring that thing back to life? You're telling me we can't print some books and get them out to my people? You're wrong. Watch me.

• 1:32:04Speaker 01

  Straight up wrong.

• 1:32:05Jocko Willink?

  Get some Jaco Publishing.

• 1:32:08Speaker 01

  Yep. And that loom does not only make geez and rash cards, by the way. Multiple looms, by the way. It wasn't just that one loom.

• 1:32:15Jocko Willink?

  No, it was one loom at first.

• 1:32:16Speaker 01

  To begin with, yes.

• 1:32:17Jocko Willink?

  And now there's three looms.

• 1:32:19Speaker 01

  Rockin' and rollin'. Yeah. So, yeah, you can get shirts and joggers and sweats. Sweats, uh, uh, named. Named. I don't know about named. We'll say named the most comfortable sweats in the world, straight up. The joggers, I proclaim straight up most comfortable pants in the world. Nonetheless, find out for yourself. Anyway, originmaine.com. They make a lot of cool, good stuff. All made in America, by the way.

• 1:32:44Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, and that includes made in America supplements.

• 1:32:48Speaker 01

  Jaco sup-

• 1:32:49Jocko Willink?

  Jaco supplements. You know, the Jaco thing is just a complete, A, lack of originality. That's what it is. Because if you think about it from a broader perspective, and you know me well enough to be like, the last thing I would do is like, oh, I'm just gonna call everything Jaco.

• 1:33:08Speaker 01

  Well, well.

• 1:33:09Jocko Willink?

  It's like Bizarro though.

• 1:33:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, well.

• 1:33:11Jocko Willink?

  And it started with Jocko Podcast. It started with Jocko Podcast and that, I've said this before, but I was on Tim Ferriss's podcast and he was, he said like, are you hungry? And I was like, Jaco hungry. And for some reason that just made me chuckle. And then when we were naming this podcast, I was like, well, you're like, what are you gonna call him? Like Jocko Podcast? As if it's the same Neanderthal thing. And so then, then it was like, okay, we're gonna make tea. Well, what do you call pomegranate white tea? What do we call it? Like, the Vedic solution? I mean, what are you gonna call it? Like, it's like, okay, well, this is gonna be the tea that I drink. So we'll just call it Jaco White Tea. Okay, cool. Well, then, hey, when I, when I, when I started saying, you know what?

• 1:33:53Jocko Willink?

  I need to make some good supplements, Pete and Brian in the game. Like, I'm like, hey, can you make this? And they're like, yeah. And I said, okay. Well, then what are we gonna call it? Well, just call it, you know, Jaco Super Crumble. And there you go. So that's how we end up with the least creative name of any products that have existed. I apologize to everyone.

• 1:34:18Speaker 01

  Actually, it seemed like, well, early on anyway, it seemed like it wasn't creative because you're like, hey, this create, like, if I create this super creative name, like, is that important really right now? I'm too busy making it good.

• 1:34:30Jocko Willink?

  Well, we talked about in the last podcast that sometimes I'm so into functionality that I'm, that I'm not in, in synchronicity with the rest of the world sometimes. For instance, if you allowed me to design a house, no human being would live in the house except for me and like three other seals that I know. That would be like, oh, this house is perfect, man. Everyone else would be like, bro, what is wrong with you? And I, so you, you know, you have to keep that. Same with vehicles. Like, if I could design my own vehicle, no one would wanna drive it but me. Maybe that's, that one may be a little bit broader. Cause you get people that'd be like, yeah. So I have to be careful because sometimes I'm just so into function that it just doesn't make sense to anyone else but me.

• 1:35:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, but it does have its value big time when it comes to these supplements because what? Joint warfare function. Try lose function of your joint and see what happens. Same thing with krill oil. Same thing with discipline, brain function. And then of course, Moke, that's muscle function. Muscle building function, recovery, if you will. So, look, all of them together. Brain function, joint function, muscle function. Boom, you're good to go.

• 1:35:40Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Yeah, and speaking of functionality, and this is one of the things where you kind of attacked me.

• 1:35:48Speaker 01

  Uh, sure.

• 1:35:49Jocko Willink?

  You attacked me because for you, in my, you see, this is, this is a perfect example. In your mind, I'm all about function, right?

• 1:35:57Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:35:57Jocko Willink?

  Then, when I started making supplements, I wanted them to taste good.

• 1:36:02Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:36:02Jocko Willink?

  And that was actually, it was actually side by side with functionality is taste. Why is that? Cause if you do, if it doesn't taste good, then it's not gonna function, cause you're not gonna use it.

• 1:36:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:36:14Jocko Willink?

  So, these taste delish, especially Molk, let's face the facts. There's, this is, it's just a whole new thing.

• 1:36:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:36:22Jocko Willink?

  It's a, it's literally a new thing in the world. We had to create, I created a name for it. Molk. Why did I create that name? What else are you gonna call it? It doesn't make sense to call it anything else, cause it's not anything else.

• 1:36:33Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:36:33Jocko Willink?

  It just is Molk, that's what it is.

• 1:36:35Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:36:36Jocko Willink?

  Now, okay, I got four kids, we know I have four kids. I spend time with kids, I see kids all the time, we got kids jujitsu programs at my gym. What do kids need? Kids need fuel. What do kids get fed? They get fed crap. Why? Because there's, there's sugar in everything, there's high fructose corn syrup, corn syrup and everything. There's, it's just garbage. So, with my own kids, what do I wanna feed them? I wanna feed them something that's good. We made Warrior Kid Molk. Why? Because kids need good food to eat. We're, we're putting kids on the warrior path. I get letters every single day from kids all over the world. New Zealand, Australia, Europe, America for sure.

• 1:37:20Jocko Willink?

  Kids that are seven years old, that are nine years old, that are 11 years old, that are 14 years old. And they're on the path. They're doing pull-ups, they're doing jujitsu, they're sending pictures of their jujitsu tournament. They're drawing pictures of their medal that they got for jujitsu.

• 1:37:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:37:34Jocko Willink?

  There's kids that are on the Warrior Kid path. What are they eating?

• 1:37:39Jocko Willink?

  Are they eating junk? Sometimes they're eating junk, not cause they want to, but that's, cause what's, that's what's in their fridge.

• 1:37:44Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:37:45Jocko Willink?

  So, had to solve that problem. So we made Warrior Kid Molk. Again, what was equivalent to functionality? The function was they need protein, they need vitamins, they need probiotics, functional. Part, side by side with that, had to taste good, had to taste good. And what do we end up with? Warrior Kid Molk, chocolate and strawberry. It's freaking delicious.

• 1:38:13Jocko Willink?

  Both of them, they're so good, they're so tasty, it's ridiculous. So, that's Warrior Kid Molk, that's available from originmaine.com. We're gonna try and get that one out to the masses. Every kid needs Warrior Kid Molk, instead of drinking some sugar full crap of fillers. We're gonna give you real food, gonna make you stronger.

• 1:38:39Speaker 01

  Or soda.

• 1:38:40Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, man.

• 1:38:41Speaker 01

  Bruh, I used to, uh, we never had soda growing up in my house, but I used to go to my friend's house, name is Eric Masters, he's a pilot for the Air Force, by the way. Um, so I'd go to his house and they'd have soda, he wasn't pounding soda all the time, he's a superior athlete, all this, this guy, but they had soda kinda above the thing.

• 1:38:56Jocko Willink?

  Wait, wait, so when I was a kid, we didn't even relate, like soda wasn't bad for you, we just were like, oh, this is just, this is just how, like, oh, we just drank, oh, I'm thirsty, I'm gonna drink a Coke. Me and Tony Friday used to joke about that, like when you were a kid, like, oh, I haven't drinking anything all day, I'm really thirsty, give me a Coke, and you just drank it.

• 1:39:14Speaker 01

  Exactly right, and that's the point.

• 1:39:15Jocko Willink?

  You didn't know that there was thirty-six grams of corn syrup in there.

• 1:39:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's, uh, yeah.

• 1:39:20Jocko Willink?

  Good job.

• 1:39:21Speaker 01

  Thinking back, I'm like, dang, that is a crazy violation, I mean, well, could you imagine like a-

• 1:39:25Jocko Willink?

  And you only weighed forty-eight pounds.

• 1:39:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:39:28Jocko Willink?

  It wasn't like, it wasn't like you're a two-hundred-and-twenty-five-pound grown man like I am right now, I could probably put down a Coke and it wouldn't-

• 1:39:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, no factor.

• 1:39:36Jocko Willink?

  But you're, you're nine years old, here, get some of that, wrong.

• 1:39:41Speaker 01

  Some grape crush.

• 1:39:43Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:39:44Speaker 01

  Pineapple.

• 1:39:44Jocko Willink?

  So anyways, I cut you off into Mr. Masters.

• 1:39:47Speaker 01

  No, yeah, but no, that was, that, that's the point, where you go, it's just, that's just how, oh yeah, grab a soda after school, whatever, they'd sell sodas for fifty cents, after our school, you go in the thing, you buy the soda, whatever, soda machine, whatever. What if it was Molk though? Way better, way better, cause it tastes just as good, it actually tastes better than soda.

• 1:40:05Jocko Willink?

  Tastes better than soda for sure, undeniable.

• 1:40:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, and you're, yeah, that'd just be way better.

• 1:40:11Jocko Willink?

  So, there you go. Warrior Kid Molk. Molk for the adults. And then the other funny thing was I had all the people sending pictures of their kids drinking. Before we had Warrior Kid Molk, it was the kids were just straight up going down the Molk train themselves.

• 1:40:25Jocko Willink?

  Little kids, two years old, three years old, four years old. Little kids drinking Molk. Now we got the Warrior Kid Molk. Little less protein. Tasty as can be. Vitamins, probiotics. Just good to go.

• 1:40:39Speaker 01

  Hundred percent.

• 1:40:41Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, totally good to go. You're gonna change the world with that one. You're gonna make it strong again.

• 1:40:45Speaker 01

  Also, if you want to represent, we got some shirts for you. Go to JacoStore.com. That's where you can get Discipline Equals Freedom. A shirt with Jaco's head on it that I made with the word good written.

• 1:41:00Jocko Willink?

  You can also get a shirt with Echo's head on it.

• 1:41:02Speaker 01

  That Jaco made?

• 1:41:03Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, which have been now captured in the wild, people representing.

• 1:41:07Speaker 01

  Yes, that made me feel really, really good.

• 1:41:11Jocko Willink?

  Really? Oh, so you kind of got off on that. That was like really cool. Like, oh, I got fans.

• 1:41:16Speaker 01

  No, it was, I, I, of course, well, there's that. Put it this way, for someone to represent that hardcore. To wear that shirt, because it's a cool design. I like it. And then, you know, for them.

• 1:41:28Jocko Willink?

  That was a little subliminal compliment in my direction because I designed it.

• 1:41:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, everyone seemed real happy with it. I'm saying the whole group.

• 1:41:35Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, there's some layers on that shirt.

• 1:41:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, massive. Multiple layers. Nonetheless, some cool stuff on there. We got some hoodies on there. Yeah, if you want to represent, go to JacoStore.com. Some good stuff on there for everybody, by the way.

• 1:41:50Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, and also subscribe to the podcast. This podcast, for sure.

• 1:41:56Jocko Willink?

  iTunes, wherever you get podcasts, you know that. Also, the Warrior Kid Podcast. Take a listen to it. All ages. Take a listen to it. Definitely kids. Dave Burke, he's saying he just got that Warrior Kid Podcast on repeat.

• 1:42:08Speaker 01

  That's a good deal, Dave.

• 1:42:10Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, good deal, Dave. He's got the Warrior Kid Podcast on repeat for his kids. I talked to so many people when we were at Roll Call, muster, they're like, yeah, we're going, we just got it 24/7. Kids are in the car, we're listening to Warrior Kid Podcast. The lessons that you want to teach your kid, that your kid doesn't really want to hear from you because you're their mom, you're their dad. They don't want to hear it from you. They want to hear it from Uncle Jake. They want to hear it from Uncle Jake. And I would go so far as to say.

• 1:42:40Jocko Willink?

  Don't even, one of the, you know how you said you can't just say, "I'm gonna take extreme ownership of that."

• 1:42:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:42:45Jocko Willink?

  What you can't do with your kids is turn around when you're in the car and say, "You see Uncle Jake saying the same thing I told you."

• 1:42:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:42:51Jocko Willink?

  No, don't do that. Don't discredit Uncle Jake. And you're not really discrediting him, but what you're doing is you're bringing, you're forming a team, right?

• 1:43:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:43:03Jocko Willink?

  You're forming a team. It's us against you. And when Uncle Jake's talking to the kid, they're on the same team.

• 1:43:08Speaker 01

  Same team, yeah.

• 1:43:09Jocko Willink?

  Uncle Jake is in the game with the kids. The kids, you have a natural friction with your parents. If you take Uncle Jake's side strongly, now you're on Uncle Jake's side. It's you against your kids against you. You don't want that. You should almost play reverse psychology.

• 1:43:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:43:25Jocko Willink?

  And be like, "Well, you know, it's a little extreme for Uncle Jake to wanna work out that much." And your kid be like, "Well, I think we should probably listen to Uncle Jake, Dad."

• 1:43:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:43:36Jocko Willink?

  Maybe, maybe we should get a pull-up bar.

• 1:43:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:43:38Jocko Willink?

  By the way, get a pull-up bar for your kids. Just get a pull-up bar for them. It doesn't cost much. It costs 12 bucks. You just need a piece of pipe. And you just, you just put it, hang it somewhere for your kids so they can do pull-ups. Pull-ups are important for children.

• 1:43:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:43:53Jocko Willink?

  Straight up. There's some fact about no kid that can do a pull-up is obese in the whole world. You can't be obese and do a pull-up as a kid.

• 1:44:02Speaker 01

  Thanks. That's good.

• 1:44:03Jocko Willink?

  So let's do some pull-ups.

• 1:44:04Speaker 01

  Dig it, yeah. Yeah, I feel like a good way too for the, don't, don't be like, "I'm gonna put this on and you're gonna listen to it."

• 1:44:11Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah, don't do that.

• 1:44:11Speaker 01

  And like it.

• 1:44:12Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. You want the kids, you want, it's like when you go through military boot camp, the drill instructors are real mean, cuz they want you to form a gang against them. That's part of the psychology. They want it to be us against them, so we form up into a platoon and we're against this guy, and then in the end it all comes together.

• 1:44:33Speaker 01

  Gotcha, yeah.

• 1:44:33Jocko Willink?

  It's the same thing we're going here. We, you don't, you wanna let Uncle Jake be part of their team.

• 1:44:40Speaker 01

  Well.

• 1:44:40Jocko Willink?

  And you just, "Man, a lot of the stuff Uncle Jake says, man, he seems like a pretty intense guy."

• 1:44:46Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:44:47Jocko Willink?

  Oh. And actually, Uncle Jake isn't that intense on the Warrior Kid Podcast.

• 1:44:50Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:44:51Jocko Willink?

  He's telling stories about being a kid.

• 1:44:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:44:54Jocko Willink?

  He's answering questions about being a kid.

• 1:44:56Speaker 01

  Yeah. Podcast is soft, or not softer, but like, he's not as, he's more intense in the book, for sure.

• 1:45:02Jocko Willink?

  He's more intense in the book, yeah.

• 1:45:03Speaker 01

  The trash can, waking up.

• 1:45:04Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:45:05Speaker 01

  You understand.

• 1:45:06Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:45:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:45:08Jocko Willink?

  So yeah, there you go. Also, the also get your Warrior Kid soap, which Irish Oaks Rants, Aiden's up there making soap on his farm so that you can stay clean. Thirteen year old businessman getting after it. YouTube, we are stepping up YouTube videos confirmed.

• 1:45:26Speaker 01

  Confirmed.

• 1:45:26Jocko Willink?

  Confirmed. You may have seen some of them. Little shorter, little bit more tight.

• 1:45:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:45:33Jocko Willink?

  Right and tight.

• 1:45:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:45:34Jocko Willink?

  We like that. So go to YouTube, subscribe to that. And you can see Echo's legit longer videos too. Echo has skills. This is a known fact.

• 1:45:46Jocko Willink?

  Psychological Warfare, little album with tracks to help you get through those moments of weakness. There's a new one being made. We're working on it. If you got any recommendations or any suggestions or anything you need from Psychological Warfare, some moment of weakness that you have, we got a request for shopping, an impulsive shopper. We're gonna put a damper on that, straight up. We're gonna shut that down.

• 1:46:06Speaker 01

  Curve that.

• 1:46:07Jocko Willink?

  Other things, smoking, we're gonna shut that down.

• 1:46:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:46:11Jocko Willink?

  So if you got any suggestions for that, then you can make that happen. That's available anywhere. You can buy MP3s.

• 1:46:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, very helpful. Hundred percent success rate. Also, speaking of moments of weakness, like if you don't wanna go to the gym, get stuff, gym stuff, workout equipment for your house. This is where you get them, onnit.com. Get kettlebells, rings, battle ropes. Get a mace and a club. Do that. Bro, you'll get a good workout. Anyway, makes it way easier to stay on the path one, cuz let's face it, driving to the gym is not that cool. And if you're feeling lazy or your time is pressuring, like time constraints, bro, just stay home, get a workout, hard one too. That's where I get mine from. Anyway, yeah, onnit.com/jaco, that's the spot to go. Hundred percent.

• 1:46:58Speaker 01

  Also, Jaco Whitey.

• 1:47:02Jocko Willink?

  That sounded like almost like it was gonna have some music kicking in. Jocko White.

• 1:47:09Speaker 01

  Well, in, there's a dichotomy in that too. Sure, it tastes good. We know that. It's tasting good is part of the functionality. I get it. But like, white tea kinda sounds kinda light and like, dainty. I don't know. See what I'm saying?

• 1:47:23Jocko Willink?

  And then you, and it's red.

• 1:47:25Speaker 01

  Black coffee, you know, and they get, no, no, no, no black coffee. Get some pomegranate.

• 1:47:29Jocko Willink?

  I was telling Leif, I've never had a sip of coffee in my whole life.

• 1:47:33Speaker 01

  I thought you said you didn't like the taste?

• 1:47:35Jocko Willink?

  Okay, well, I should have clarified that.

• 1:47:36Speaker 01

  You don't like the smell?

• 1:47:37Jocko Willink?

  I didn't even like the smell. So I didn't even put it to my lips.

• 1:47:41Speaker 01

  Really? Alright, hey man, fair enough. I dig it. Um.

• 1:47:44Jocko Willink?

  Jocko White tea, my wife's mom, a Brit.

• 1:47:48Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:47:49Jocko Willink?

  Like, my wife's a Brit. My wife's mom is even more British, right? Cause she's this old school Brit. She, guess what she drinks? Cause you know, you know, British people, they don't even play around with tea. They don't even play around with tea. That's part of the deal.

• 1:48:02Speaker 01

  Part of the, yeah.

• 1:48:03Jocko Willink?

  Part of the life. Guess what kind of tea she drinks?

• 1:48:06Speaker 01

  Jocko White.

• 1:48:06Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, boy.

• 1:48:08Speaker 01

  So obviously she does.

• 1:48:09Jocko Willink?

  Now we're sending shipments of Jocko White tea to England.

• 1:48:12Speaker 01

  So she brews it hot?

• 1:48:14Jocko Willink?

  The, the, the, the damn world, global home of tea.

• 1:48:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:48:19Jocko Willink?

  They're, we're having to ship it.

• 1:48:20Speaker 01

  Cause you, but your thing was always the cold, the iced tea.

• 1:48:23Jocko Willink?

  No, I have the warm tea.

• 1:48:24Speaker 01

  So you, oh, I mean, as far as like before you made Jocko White tea, you, I'd always see you drinking the cold one.

• 1:48:31Jocko Willink?

  Most, most of the time, most of the time I prefer cold. Cause most of the time I'm in a situation where I am hot and I need to cool down.

• 1:48:38Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:48:39Jocko Willink?

  Sometimes I'm in a situation where I'm cool and I need to warm up. Seldom.

• 1:48:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, when you're cold, you wanna be cozy.

• 1:48:45Jocko Willink?

  No, I didn't say that. You better back off.

• 1:48:50Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, I'm saying Brits, they don't dig the cold iced tea. That's why.

• 1:48:53Jocko Willink?

  Well, you know what's nice is like before you have to talk a lot?

• 1:48:56Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:48:56Jocko Willink?

  You, you can drink some white tea for the throat. Just like relaxes the throat. And yet at the same time, you're getting a little caffeine hitter.

• 1:49:07Jocko Willink?

  Get a little caffeine hitter with some antioxidants. And not to mention, if there's any vehicles you need to pick up, you got an eight thousand pound deadlift. So you're good to go. Guaranteed.

• 1:49:16Speaker 01

  Whatever you need. Yeah, it's good.

• 1:49:18Jocko Willink?

  I saw Theo Von the other day and he was, he posted something on Instagram. He had a Chick-fil-A hitter.

• 1:49:26Jocko Willink?

  So those of you that are wondering about my hitter reference, yes, Theo Von, thank you. You have brought that word into my vocabulary and I had a little Jaco Whitey hitter. I also have been using the term to describe one scoop of milk. That's just a one, it's a one scoop hitter.

• 1:49:45Speaker 01

  Good.

• 1:49:46Jocko Willink?

  Cause, cause two scoops legitimately fills you up. You don't want to eat a meal.

• 1:49:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:49:50Jocko Willink?

  No, you don't want to, or you, you ate like a little decent meal, but you still want something, a dessert? Two, two scoops and you're just, that's too much, too much. You have that little one scoop hitter.

• 1:50:01Speaker 01

  Easy money.

• 1:50:02Jocko Willink?

  And you're good to go.

• 1:50:03Speaker 01

  Good to go.

• 1:50:04Jocko Willink?

  And if you tried the strawberry kids. Strawberry kids milk is ridiculously tasty.

• 1:50:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, you're onto something on that one for sure.

• 1:50:11Jocko Willink?

  Check. And.

• 1:50:14Speaker 01

  Some books, I think, right?

• 1:50:16Jocko Willink?

  Got some books. I got quite a few books, actually. Way the Warrior Kid, Mark's Mission, already talked about that a little bit. You want your kids on the path to pull-ups, studying, memorizing, getting smarter, getting better. This is not, this is not, hey, I think this will happen. This is, at this point, same thing. I know this will happen.

• 1:50:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:50:38Jocko Willink?

  I know this will happen. Your kids will want a pull-up bar. Your kids will want to do jujitsu. Your kids will want to study for school. Study for school? What kid wants to study for school? Warrior kids.

• 1:50:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:50:49Jocko Willink?

  Warrior Kid, the first book is called Way of the Warrior Kid. The second book is called Mark's Mission, Learn About Life. Next book, Discipline Equals Freedom, Field Manual. I forgot to say this recently. If you want the audio version of that, it's on iTunes, MP3s, whatever, Amazon Play, Google Music, whatever. It's on, it's on all those and that will, that's where you get the audio version. I recommend, the book is not normal. It's not a normal book. So get that book, read a page a day. Read a page a day for a year. See what that does to your life. I'm gonna, I, I'll get, make an assessment. You, your life will get better. Is that a bold statement?

• 1:51:35Jocko Willink?

  Maybe. But let me tell you, give it a try. Give it a try.

• 1:51:41Jocko Willink?

  Extreme Ownership. Interestingly, Extreme Ownership, number five on the Wall Street Journal bestseller list. It wasn't number one New York Times bestseller. That list rotates or whatever. Wall Street Journal, number five on that. Number 13 on Amazon, most read books of all books on Amazon. There's millions of books in the world. It's number 13. We got. So Extreme Ownership, leadership book. Experiences from Combat Applied to Your Business and Your Life Today. The follow up to that book, The Dichotomy of Leadership, also a New York Times bestseller.

• 1:52:22Jocko Willink?

  Number 19 on Amazon of all books read. That's crazy. Number one Wall Street Journal bestseller in business right now. Why is this? Because of you all supporting. So thank you for supporting those books. And the feedback has been awesome on both books and definitely appreciate that feedback. And then coming soon. Mikey and the Dragons. It's coming out on Jocko Publishing. Like I, like I said, if we can make looms, if we can weave material, we can print some books.

• 1:53:06Jocko Willink?

  And that's what we're doing. It means it's us against the big dogs, against the big publishing companies. So need a little bit to get some for this one. Going to try and crush them. Why? Because that's what we do over here. Hey, Story of a Little Boy That's Scared of Everything. And learns through the reading of a story inside that story of how another little boy, a little prince overcomes his fears. How to face his dragons because of course we all have dragons to fight.

• 1:53:41Jocko Willink?

  Mike and the Dragons, it's available for preorder right now on Amazon, comes out middle of November. Echelon Front Leadership Consultancy. We will help your team solve whatever problems that they have through leadership. No matter what that problem is, it's a leadership problem. It's me, Leif Babin, JP Denell, Dave Burke, Flynn Cochran, Mike Sorelli, and Mike Bahama. Email us, [email protected], or check out the website if you need that kind of help at your business. I already talked about the muster, it's been sold out. The next muster's 07, 08.

• 1:54:24Jocko Willink?

  We're looking at Denver and Chicago, so you're on notice to set that up. And of course EF Overwatch, connecting special operations leaders and combat aviation leaders, experienced leaders, tested leaders, combat proven leaders with companies in the civilian sector that need experienced, proven leaders. Go to EFOverwatch.com to get in that game. And if you want to roll with us virtually, you can find us on the interwebs, on Twitter,

• 1:55:03Jocko Willink?

  on Instagram, and on @fishyfishyfishyboah. Echo is at Echo Charles, and I am at Jocko Willink. And thanks to everyone for listening, especially our military, police, law enforcement, firefighters, paramedics, EMTs, Border Patrol, correctional officers, and all first responders. Thanks for making this podcast and our way of life possible by keeping us safe from evil and misfortune of the world. And to everyone else, when you face those hardships and challenges that are coming

• 1:55:47Jocko Willink?

  your way, and they are coming your way, don't get pushed back on your heels. Don't ask yourself, "Why me?" Ask yourself, "What am I going to do about it?" And then, go get after it.

• 1:56:10Jocko Willink?

  Until next time, this is Echo and Jaco. Out.