Book Club Meets: Murder mysteries and naming emotions, with Susie Dent

When mysterious symbols appear as graffiti around Oxford, lexicographer Martha Thornhill recognises them from an alphabet created by a deceased writer whose papers she once worked on. But this is no publicity stunt, and tensions intensify when further graffiti is found near the body of a university lecturer... Countdown’s Susie Dent has written Death Writ Large, a murder mystery that cleverly weaves her linguistic skills around a killer plot. In this chat, live from the Happy Place Festival, Susie teaches Fearne a few new words (confelicity, anyone?) and explains where phrases like Flaming Nora come from. Plus, why is it actually really good for you to swear, and how can naming emotions help you manage them? In October, we’ll be reading Murder at the Grand Alpine Hotel by Lucy Foley and Agatha Christie. Thank you to Zaffre for the use of the Death Writ Large audiobook, narrated by Louise Brealey. If you liked this episode of Happy Place, you might also like: Book Club Meets: Chloe Ashby https://pod.fo/e/5804c2 Book Club Meets: Candice Carty-Williams https://pod.fo/e/4d8d3d Book Club Meets: Caro Claire Burke https://pod.fo/e/42730d Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Originally designed for boatyard and factory workers.

• 0:04Fearne Cotton?

  Welcome to the Happy Place Book Club with me, Fern Cotton.

• 0:07Speaker 00

  Besides the old artisan housing.

• 0:10Fearne Cotton?

  Today, Death writ Large by Susie Dent.

• 0:13Speaker 00

  It was also home to the Clarendon English Dictionary, where Martha worked as a senior editor. Each day, she would chain up her bike and climb the stairs to the office, where she and her colleagues would study screens that, to the uninitiated, looked much like any other, but which they knew to be repositories of magic, of history and culture, of lost lives, places and peoples. The Dictionary Corpus, as it was solemnly known, was a vast record of current language, an ever-expanding archive of words drawn from sources as varied as WhatsApp messages and scholarly journals.

• 0:54Speaker 00

  Martha and her team were simply the latest chroniclers of its currents and pools, watching even as they shifted beneath their gaze. The team had developed the habit of treating each other to pastries at the end of the month, and today Martha had decided she'd make an extra effort and pick up a box of her colleague Safi's favourite raspberry shoe from the patisserie on the high street. She was immensely fond of Safi and often wondered where she would be without her colleagues' optimism and curiosity, when her own supplies of each were running low. The gooey indulgences might be particularly welcome this week.

• 1:35Speaker 00

  Martha knew that Safi was racing to finish her prep for a talk on the history of the dictionary's readers, the volunteers who worked alongside the editors in gathering evidence of language in action. She would be delivering it at their annual conference for the large cohort of current volunteers on Saturday.

• 1:57Fearne Cotton?

  Now, you know Susie from Dictionary Corner on Countdown. She's been there since the early 90s, unbelievable. She knows every single word in the English language, and she also knows the history of all those words, which is fascinating. Do you know why we say the phrase flaming Nora? Or do you know the word confolicity? Do you know what it means? Neither did I. Well, you're going to find out in this chat, which I had with Susie live at the Happy Place Festival in Tatten Park just a few weeks ago. So let's talk about Susie's book. She's written this fiction, Death writ Large. It's such a clever thriller, using all her incredible linguistic skills woven into a proper murder mystery,

• 2:40Fearne Cotton?

  which is a central conceit that Sally Ann particularly loved.

• 2:45Speaker 02

  The plot grips you from page one. It's a proper puzzle with clues that are hidden in plain sight. And it's got a really brilliant ending that made the most of all the twists you encounter along the way. The characters are a triumph. They feel real and lived in. They're flawed, they're funny, and in places, they're devastating. So to finish the book, I've really missed them. The part I love most were the inklings. There are these little word plays that are threaded through the narrative. I want to say more, but I can't without possibly giving something away, which I really don't want to. You have to read this book.

• 3:23Speaker 02

  But honestly, the inklings are playful and fun, and they're clever, and they're really woven into the DNA of the book. Death writ Large is clever, it's gripping, and of course, it's beautifully written. I loved it. For me, it's one's treasure, and I can't wait till Susie's third book comes along.

• 3:47Fearne Cotton?

  Now, you can always get in touch. We love hearing from you. Head to Instagram at Happy Place Book Club. Getting to hear your thoughts on these books is beautiful, so let us know what you think.

• 4:00Speaker 03

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• 4:29Speaker 04

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• 5:02Fearne Cotton?

  Right, let's do it. Here's the show.

• 5:25Fearne Cotton?

  Welcome to Cheshire. Thank you, isn't this beautiful? Tatten Park is so pretty. We love it here.

• 5:32Speaker 05

  I love the fact that there were sheep just sort of wandering everywhere.

• 5:35Fearne Cotton?

  The sheep wandering around.

• 5:36Speaker 05

  And that we follow the sheep.

• 5:37Fearne Cotton?

  We really, really do. We are a bunch of sheep. But we're so happy to have you here. This is our live Happy Place Book Club. We love our little book club gang. If any of you follow us on Instagram, we pick a different book every single month, and then we deep dive into it and all read it together, and it's just the best. So today, we are talking about our September pick, which is your brand new book, Death writ Large. Now, this is the second in a series, and it's a cosy murder mystery. This is a genre that just keeps on growing in popularity, especially this time of year. Is there anything better than just cosying up with a murder mystery book? Why do you think this genre is just exploding all over again?

• 6:21Speaker 05

  It's interesting, isn't it? I think cosy can cover so many different types of books. In fact, I don't think mine is particularly cosy, but in the same way that Agatha Christie, I don't think is hugely cosy, although she was my comfort reading when I was a teenager. Because she's quite dark, Agatha Christie. You know, because it's about evil in the ordinary, which is, there's nothing more scary than thinking anyone around you actually is capable of murder or whatever. So someone very kindly said that my book was Lexi Noir, because lexicography and noir. And I thought, that's great, because I'll always be number one. I'll always be number one in Lexi Noir.

• 7:00Fearne Cotton?

  What a juicy word.

• 7:01Speaker 05

  Because there isn't another one.

• 7:02Fearne Cotton?

  I love that.

• 7:03Speaker 05

  As far as I know, yeah. But I think, as you say, I think it's just the escapism, isn't it, really? And I don't think any of us should look down on anything that's trying to kind of give you that sense of solace, strangely, given that it's about evil doings, but just that retreat to something else.

• 7:22Fearne Cotton?

  I agree.

• 7:23Speaker 05

  And that kind of thought, well, you know, could that be me? But yeah, I kind of think mine's more, probably more of a mystery than a crime novel, but I don't know. I mean, nothing fits perfectly in any category, does it?

• 7:34Fearne Cotton?

  No, and it doesn't need to either.

• 7:35Speaker 05

  No.

• 7:35Fearne Cotton?

  But I totally agree. I am a massive wuss, and I can't watch, like, true crime documentaries, eh eh, like, absolutely not, or even like films about violence or murder. But a book is a totally different experience for me. Like, a book, I can get into some dark, nitty gritty stuff, maybe because we can filter things or dream up what that looks like in our head. It just, it is cosier, whereas I think, you know, if you had a book like yours with this sort of plot on TV, you would definitely lose the coziness.

• 8:08Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 8:08Fearne Cotton?

  The coziness would go. But there's something about it being in book form, it's really lovely. Were you a big murder mystery fan, Agatha Christie fan, growing up?

• 8:16Speaker 05

  Agatha Christie, and also Dorothy Sayers, if anyone loves Dorothy Sayers. So that's sort of quite old fashioned for me. But yeah, I loved all of those. And I think I still do, even as a child. I mean, I kind of got past the ponies and the orphans. I was big into orphans when I, was anyone else? I think there's that sort of.

• 8:37Fearne Cotton?

  Cozy orphans.

• 8:38Speaker 05

  Yes. I don't know if it's cosy orphans, but just that sense of being alone in the world and letting your imagination fly and thinking, where would I, you know, where? Again, it's that imagining the unthinkable and seeing how you would cope with it. I think that was the thing.

• 8:53Fearne Cotton?

  You, in this book, have married the world of detectives and people that work for the Oxford Dictionary. Where did that idea first start to percolate? When did that come to you?

• 9:04Speaker 05

  Did it occur to me when I was working at the Oxford Dictionary? No, probably not. But to be honest, Ben, I don't think I would have written this book had it not been from my brilliant editor, who said, do you want to give it a go? I used to write short stories when I was little, absolutely loved it. I've been working on a, it's not really a secret, but kind of private screenplay for years. It's where I've wanted to go if I, you know, if I just wanted to escape myself. I don't think we'll ever see the light of day, but crime, I'm not sure I would have considered had Kelly, my editor, not come and said, what do you think about it? And I thought, well, we are word detectives as lexicographers, so why not, you know, see the parallels with crime detection? And we use much of the same vocabulary, so we talk about evidence all the time.

• 9:49Speaker 05

  You know, is there evidence of this word being used in this way? Or what is the evidence of when it was first used, et cetera, and how it's changed? You know, we're constantly following footprints through history. So in a way, there's quite a lot of history of Oxford in this book as well. That's what I wanted to do.

• 10:06Fearne Cotton?

  And also, the lexicographers have this key role, because the killer is leaving little clues, runes, codes, lost language, to sort of leave a little trail behind. And also, at the beginning of every chapter in the book, you start with a lost word, a word that we don't hear anymore.

• 10:24Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 10:25Fearne Cotton?

  For instance, from the 18th century. Marplot, which means a person who hinders progress.

• 10:31Speaker 05

  Yes, don't we all know a marplot?

• 10:33Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, so many marplots all over the gaff. We've all got one. What was your favourite word that you used as a title chapter?

• 10:42Speaker 05

  I'm quite big on the lost positives of language, so the ones which meant something really beautiful, but which we've just dismissed because we're pessimistic lot. And it's respare, which is fresh hope and a recovery from despair. So it's the the parent of despair, if you like.

• 10:59Fearne Cotton?

  I love that word.

• 11:00Speaker 05

  And there are so many of those in the historical dictionary, but we only stick with the negatives.

• 11:05Fearne Cotton?

  Bring them back.

• 11:06Speaker 05

  Exactly. That's what we need to.

• 11:07Fearne Cotton?

  Like, everything in full circle comes back. People are wearing flares again. Let's bring back, yeah, exactly.

• 11:12Speaker 05

  Me too.

• 11:12Fearne Cotton?

  Let's bring back these words. They're so beautiful.

• 11:15Speaker 05

  I agree.

• 11:16Fearne Cotton?

  As you said, the book is set in Oxford and you get such a sense of the place throughout the novel. And also the class system at play. You've got in this book a group of elite people. And then you've also, and the people in the inner workings of the university, but you've also got the everyday people that live there and work there, the working class. And that concoction of people makes for quite an interesting place. Was that your experience of it when you were working there and studying there?

• 11:43Speaker 05

  Yeah, so I studied there and I was, when I studied there, I was quite aware of the town gown thing, as you are, I guess, as a student. I think it's overplayed a little bit, but it's still very much there. And then I went away, actually, I went to the States for three or four years and then lived in London for one. I just felt this pull towards going back. I actually then got the job with the dictionaries. And I became aware of it the moment I was sort of back, that it's not so much resentment, although there probably is a little bit of that, but it's just, I think I write about the sort of, the rhythms of the university somehow dictate the rhythms of the city. And they both kind of go on, they intersect, and then they, they just sort of, the city absorbs it all.

• 12:26Speaker 05

  And I find the sort of the tensions, but also the comfort with which they fit together quite interesting. And it's a stunning city, but it's a huge city and it's really, it's a gnarly city. It's quite complex. It's bigger than Cambridge. I think people often think of it as this sort of little picturesque city of dreaming spies, which it is, but it's also, you know, got, like any other big city, it's got its shadows. So I wanted to explore that a bit.

• 12:51Fearne Cotton?

  And you've also got a whole host of characters who are either trying to solve these mysteries or nefarious types that we're trying to figure out as you move through the book. Are you particularly fond of one of the characters?

• 13:02Speaker 05

  Well, I mean, Martha is the main editor. She is too much like me, actually. Do you have, if I'm only writing a book, I just, of course, there's the pull of the autobiographical, but there's also the desire, at least there was in me, to pull away a little bit and just to make her different. Or, or someone that I would like to be. So Martha definitely has characteristics I would like to have and don't have yet. But I think she's rubbing off on me a bit. So I would say always Martha, that she works with two lexicographers called Alex and Safi. Sorry, I've got this, there's delicious breakfast in the green room. And I think I've got something stuck in my throat, so apologies for this.

• 13:40Fearne Cotton?

  I can do the Heimlich manoeuvre if we need to. Yeah, I can do it.

• 13:43Speaker 05

  Feel it, I'll bring that.

• 13:46Speaker 05

  Alex is in her 50s. She's sort of been through stuff. She's come out the other side. She's savage, she's sassy. So I would like to be more Alex. Safi is the youngest, hugely curious about everything. But she is like a bull in a china shop, or a bowl in a china shop, as I read the other day. And she just goes about stuff, trampling on people sometimes because she's just so eager to get to the truth. But there is that indomitable curiosity, as I say, in Safi that I love. I quite like Oliver Caldwell as well, who is the detective, who we get to know a little bit more in this novel. And again, you discover a bit more about his past. So I think I've got, even for the perpetrator,

• 14:30Speaker 05

  I actually have some sympathy as well because of the motivations for their, for their wrongdoings.

• 14:38Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, I think that's always an interesting take because it's so easy just to write a nefarious character who is just evil for the sake of it. But I think when you get to know the motives and you sort of can understand them, it makes for a much more complex read in terms of.

• 14:53Speaker 05

  Yeah, back to Agatha Christie.

• 14:54Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, exactly. Absolutely.

• 14:56Speaker 05

  That sense of the ordinary.

• 14:57Fearne Cotton?

  For people who are wondering, what does a lexicographer do day to day? Like, how does, what is the rhythm of your day in that environment? It's a fascinating job that not many people get to do. How does your day play out?

• 15:10Speaker 05

  So I don't hardly do this anymore, but if you go into the dictionary department, it's the Oxford English Dictionary, you can hear a pin drop. It's really quiet and you just think, oh yeah, I expected this, you know, this is just a bunch of nerds sitting at computers. But honestly, what we're looking at is just the most, and I talk about this in the book, is the most marvellous thing, because they are databases of current language. So a lot of our day is spent looking at collections of words that have been gathered from novels, from chat rooms, from blogs, from podcasts, from scholarly journals, broadsheet newspapers, as much evidence as we can find.

• 15:51Speaker 05

  And we use this to show which words are being used more frequently, which words, new words are bubbling under or, you know, erupting into use, which words are being, you know, their meaning is flipped. Because as we all know, we can change the meaning of a word quite dramatically. If you think about things like sick or, or even gnarly, that I used the other day. I remember using that with Clara Amfo and she said, I love gnarly. And I was just thinking, yeah, but you're young and you use it in a different way, don't you? I just mean quite complex, whereas gnarly obviously means great, sick. So we see all of this and then chart those words and make, eventually you will get someone sort of drafting an entry for that, which is, it's not as easy as it sounds.

• 16:32Speaker 05

  But most of the time we are studying this evidence and then we have these great conversations. Like in the book, Safi is desperate to find out the identity of Mickey Bliss. And Mickey Bliss was the inspiration in cotny rhyming slang for taking the micky, which was a euphemism for taking the Mickey Bliss, taking the piss. And in some cases, we do know who these people were. So we know that there was a real Jack the Lad, for example, who was Jack Sheppard, who became a folk hero for escaping from unbelievable sort of situations in prison, where he would be shackled to the floor, but always managed to escape until the last time. And because he was a folk hero, he became known as Jack the Lad. So we do know some of them, but we don't know who Mickey Bliss was.

• 17:14Speaker 05

  So Safi is, you know, we have conversations about, about that kind of thing. And, and then the mundane things like, you know, what are you going to have for lunch and, and that stuff.

• 17:23Fearne Cotton?

  But honestly, it's a fab job. Like, we say so many turns of phrase without having a clue what it means, like Gordon Bennett.

• 17:33Speaker 05

  Gordon Bennett.

• 17:34Fearne Cotton?

  Is that a person?

• 17:35Speaker 05

  Gordon Bennett was the son of a newspaper magnate called Gordon Bennett. So he's Gordon Bennett Jr., the one that we talk about today.

• 17:43Fearne Cotton?

  And like, it's nuts that we say that, like, oh, Gordon Bennett.

• 17:46Speaker 05

  Gordon Bennett.

• 17:48Fearne Cotton?

  What is, what's nuts?

• 17:49Speaker 05

  Yes, it is nuts. And I think, so he became, he was a sort of bit of a playboy and fast moving, fast cars, all of that. So he was quite high in the popular imagination and people knew about him. But it was crucially because Gordon sounds a bit like Gord, and it was a euphemism for God, that we said, oh, Gordon Bennett. It's a bit like saying, did anyone's grandmother used to say Flipping Ada or Flaming Nora?

• 18:14Fearne Cotton?

  Flaming Nora, yeah.

• 18:15Speaker 05

  So that's flaming horror, I think, originally, but in, well, our grandparents' day, but also go back to the Middle Ages, the big thing you could not do was take the Lord's name in vain, which is why you have crikey for Christ and Jiminy Cricket later on for Jesus Christ, or Jeepers Creepers, or all of those. And actually, our swear words, you know, like the big arsenal that we have today, they weren't particularly taboo. They were a bit improper. But you could use the F word amongst friends and no one would think, you know, that was less rouge than saying, damn it.

• 18:50Fearne Cotton?

  Wow. It's so, I mean, I'm a big fan of crikey. I've definitely brought that one back for myself recently. Like, it's just, it's got some punch behind it.

• 18:58Speaker 05

  It has, isn't it?

• 18:59Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 18:59Speaker 05

  Crikey, it's got that sort of sense of, ah.

• 19:02Fearne Cotton?

  It is so fascinating. I love learning the etymology and the stories behind all of this stuff that we just say without any thought. You know, we had your dear friend, Tom Reed Wilson here yesterday, which was such a joy. And we touched on this a bit, just like learning about language is endlessly fascinating. There's so many tales.

• 19:20Speaker 05

  Tom just, I mean, he views every word as being delicious in some way. And he's a bit like me. When we have lunch together, we are.

• 19:29Fearne Cotton?

  Oh my God, I can't imagine.

• 19:31Speaker 05

  We are insufferable because we just, one of us will use a word and then we will just sit there, kind of almost like we're just sort of holding it up and marveling at it and sharing its story. I'm total geeks.

• 19:43Fearne Cotton?

  I think they're probably quite long lunches, aren't they?

• 19:46Speaker 05

  They are, they are quite, they're not boozy lunches.

• 19:49Fearne Cotton?

  No, but just like, there's a lot of words.

• 19:51Speaker 05

  They're just great. Yeah. He's, he's a lovely human, as you discovered.

• 19:55Fearne Cotton?

  He is. He is so gorgeous. He's such a lovely man. Which word do you overuse?

• 20:02Speaker 05

  Oh, that's such a good question.

• 20:07Speaker 05

  Sure, do I overuse? I think it might be fab that I just used the other day, actually, which I use with my sister. I'm not sure it's fully come back in, like flares. It's very 1960s, but I just quite like the sound of fab. And I used to like the ice creams as well.

• 20:22Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, me too. I sadly think mine is, not a word, but I make it sound like one word and it's, fuck's sake.

• 20:33Speaker 05

  I like that. I like that.

• 20:34Fearne Cotton?

  And I wish it wasn't, but it just is. Like, it just is.

• 20:39Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 20:39Fearne Cotton?

  Especially in the morning when I'm trying to get all my kids' stuff ready for school.

• 20:44Speaker 05

  And you're saying it to yourself.

• 20:45Fearne Cotton?

  I'm saying it to myself.

• 20:47Speaker 05

  Yeah, the only time I ever swear properly is, like, Tom doesn't swear.

• 20:53Fearne Cotton?

  No, I noticed that.

• 20:54Speaker 05

  Very much at all. And I think, yeah, I've never had this conversation with him really. But it's, for me, it's, it's on my own when, there's a word for this, which I've talked about a lot, which is lalocesia. Lalocesia is the, literally the physical relief you get from having a good swear. So.

• 21:14Fearne Cotton?

  That is my perpetual state. Like, that is just where I'm at.

• 21:17Speaker 05

  There's been so many experiments about this. Do you know the famous one with your hand in ice cold water?

• 21:22Fearne Cotton?

  No.

• 21:23Speaker 05

  So if you, if you dip your hand in ice cold water and shout bollocks as opposed to bust, then you can keep it in for twice as long.

• 21:35Speaker 05

  So it raises your serotonin levels, it lowers your cortisol levels. But obviously, we're not talking about aggressive swear, we're not talking about swearing at someone.

• 21:43Fearne Cotton?

  No, no, no, for your own happiness.

• 21:45Speaker 05

  To your own, if you're in labour, if you stub your toe.

• 21:48Fearne Cotton?

  Yes.

• 21:48Speaker 05

  Any of that, it helps.

• 21:51Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, okay.

• 21:51Speaker 05

  Literally physically helps.

• 21:52Fearne Cotton?

  Giving me even more permission to carry on as I was.

• 21:55Speaker 05

  There you go, you're a lalociziac.

• 21:59Speaker 04

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• 22:32Fearne Cotton?

  Tom and I yesterday were talking about your book, The Emotional Dictionary, which is so fascinating again, because I think a lot of the time, we assume like, oh, there'll definitely be a Japanese word for this, or there'll be, you know, another language will have the word for this feeling, like something that I want to express about where I'm at, something quite niche and specific. But actually, we've got loads in the English language that we just don't know about, and you explore a lot of them. And I learned a few good new words that I'm going to start using. One of them, from your emotional dictionary, is groking. We've all experienced groking. Anyone know what groking is? You've all had it.

• 23:09Speaker 05

  Does anyone have a dog? Yes. So this is what your dog does the entire time, or at least mine always is too, which is stare longingly at your food in the hope that you will share it. And as I think I say in the book, you know, adults do this, whenever there's chips around, I think everyone, everyone grokes.

• 23:26Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, when you think, oh, I should have got that, and I didn't get that. And then you look at your meal and you feel annoyed, and then you look at theirs, you're groking the hell out of it when you're looking at that. Such a great word.

• 23:38Speaker 05

  It's a great word.

• 23:39Fearne Cotton?

  Another of my faves, confolicity.

• 23:43Speaker 05

  Oh, see, last positive. So you know, we have schadenfreude, which is delight in someone else's misfortune.

• 23:49Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, yeah.

• 23:51Speaker 05

  Yes. Well, the opposite of that, where there is just pure altruistic joy in someone else's happiness, is confolicity, which is just so gorgeous.

• 24:01Fearne Cotton?

  Yes, I think that we do that all weekend here. Like, I will walk past a tent of people line dancing, or whatever, and everyone's laughing, and someone, there's like a big conga going on yesterday or something, and it was just like a joy to watch other people enjoy. Or like, we do it with our kids, certainly. Like, when my kids are, I'd say, getting along, that's never happened. But when they're like, they're laughing, they're doing something, and they, and they look so joyful, that is when I'm at my peak happiest, when I can see them. And I had no clue there was a term for that.

• 24:33Speaker 05

  No, and there's no, there's no kind of benefit to you. It's just observing other people's happiness.

• 24:38Fearne Cotton?

  So lovely.

• 24:39Speaker 05

  It's lovely.

• 24:39Fearne Cotton?

  The next one, I don't quite know how to pronounce. Age atori?

• 24:43Speaker 05

  Argo atori, oh my goodness, we've all had this.

• 24:46Fearne Cotton?

  Yes.

• 24:46Speaker 05

  So Japanese, I really want to learn Japanese, because it's so evocative. It has so many gorgeous, gorgeous words, and I'll share another one with you. But argo atori is, it's kind of shifted a bit from its original Japanese meaning, but it is essentially leaving the hairdressers looking far worse than when you went in.

• 25:05Speaker 05

  Which, and I think we also need a word for that false reatturancy of your hairdressers when they got the mirror.

• 25:12Fearne Cotton?

  What?

• 25:12Speaker 05

  And they say, do you like it?

• 25:13Fearne Cotton?

  I love it.

• 25:14Speaker 05

  Oh, thank you so much.

• 25:15Fearne Cotton?

  I love it so much.

• 25:17Speaker 05

  And you're dying inside, exactly.

• 25:19Fearne Cotton?

  I've had it so many times. I once, when I was about seventeen, I asked, I took in a picture, and it was like of this really surfy girl, and she had like bleached blonde hair. And my hair at that point, I just had like two sun in bits at the front, but the rest was quite natural. So these were orange ovs. And I went in and went like, can I just look beachy like this? And I looked in the mirror, and it was yellow. I had yellow hair. And of course, I didn't say, what on earth have you done? I went, that is exactly it. Thank you so much. And I left, and then I got to work, and my friend went, all right, big bird. And I was like, oh, so bad.

• 26:01Speaker 05

  That's exactly, argo atori. They've also got kuchi sabishi. And kuchi sabishi is going to the fridge for the umpteenth time in a day to stare at its contents in the hope of finding something new.

• 26:16Fearne Cotton?

  Amazing, amazing.

• 26:18Speaker 05

  The reason I love this is that its literal translation is lonely mouth.

• 26:23Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, poor little lonely mouth. Sorry, but that, do you not have that when you're writing? When I'm writing a book, this is me.

• 26:33Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, just go to the fridge, come back, two more words. Oh, just have another look. It's, and I write in the kitchen. faux pas. It's terrible.

• 26:42Speaker 05

  No, no, we're just going to do the washing, anything other than sit down.

• 26:45Fearne Cotton?

  Anything than sit and write.

• 26:46Speaker 05

  Right.

• 26:47Fearne Cotton?

  What was the process of writing this for you? Are you quite good at going, right, I'm going to do two hours, let's go?

• 26:52Speaker 05

  No.

• 26:53Fearne Cotton?

  Okay.

• 26:53Speaker 05

  It's the answer. I can completely get lost in it and then write and write and write. Or I just have days where I do exactly this. I get up, look at the fridge, and do anything. I'm quite a restless person anyway, so I'm not very good at sitting down for a very long time. But more with fiction than the non-fiction, I can suddenly find it, and then I just have to go with it.

• 27:15Fearne Cotton?

  Because you get lost in the world of it. It is pure escapism.

• 27:18Speaker 05

  Yeah, you do. And the key thing is, there's a scene where I know I've just got to write it, and not self-edit on the screen, which is what I do all the time, longhand for me.

• 27:29Fearne Cotton?

  Right, nice.

• 27:30Speaker 05

  But only for particular scenes, because I can't read my writing half the time, so I have to then transcribe.

• 27:34Fearne Cotton?

  This whole book, I'm like, what on earth is, what is this stuff?

• 27:38Speaker 05

  But it does help, because you're not going back and crossing out or deleting or whatever.

• 27:42Fearne Cotton?

  Well, there also, there's lots of research into even just like, you know, any of us getting up in the morning and getting a pen and just writing exactly how you're feeling, and it being a more honest approach to what's in your head. I'm imagining it's the same sort of thing.

• 27:54Speaker 05

  Yeah, no, I think that is true, as opposed to looking at your phone, which is what we all do.

• 27:58Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, which is the pits.

• 28:00Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 28:00Fearne Cotton?

  We can't have this chat without talking about Countdown, because you are the longest-serving person on that show. You started in, was it 92?

• 28:08Speaker 05

  Yes, 92, well, I was one of many, though, so I can't say I just.

• 28:13Fearne Cotton?

  Who's doing the sound effects? I just, I can hear, I can hear you, I can hear you.

• 28:20Speaker 05

  That clock. So in fact, I'm now older than the clock.

• 28:23Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, I love it.

• 28:24Speaker 05

  Which is slightly worrying, because the clock was replaced.

• 28:29Fearne Cotton?

  That's so great.

• 28:30Speaker 05

  Yes. So I'm definitely the oldest living thing on that set, although some of the, some of the team actually have been there for as long as me, which is lovely. So yeah, I was one of many lexicographers who sat in the corner, and then Carol and Richard, Carol Wardman and Richard Whitley, wanted a full-time team, and I was there, thank God, so, yeah.

• 28:49Fearne Cotton?

  So wonderful.

• 28:50Speaker 05

  I know, I'm so lucky. I still love it. We were recording this week.

• 28:53Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, it's so great.

• 28:55Speaker 05

  Brilliant.

• 28:56Fearne Cotton?

  And it's just one of those shows that will never go anywhere. There's no way it's going to go anywhere. There's still so much love for it.

• 29:01Speaker 05

  Yeah, there is huge love. It's, we've got such a lot of following. And then with the naughty version, we, I think we brought an audience back to it, because they, you know, they remember how good that format is. Because no matter how much you're laughing at the comedians, you still have to get the longest word or whatever.

• 29:17Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, it's so great.

• 29:18Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 29:19Fearne Cotton?

  And what's the plan next? Is there a third part to this series?

• 29:24Speaker 05

  Yes, there will be a third book. And I have to see what happens with Martha and Caldwell for a start, which I'm looking forward to. So I'll be writing that next year. I have a non-fiction book to write first, which actually will bring in some of the, you know, the words that we've talked about in terms of, what's the word for this? We must have a word for this. So it's all about filling the gaps in language.

• 29:45Fearne Cotton?

  I love that.

• 29:46Speaker 05

  And then on to the next book, which I'm looking forward to, actually.

• 29:49Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, do you have an idea of where it's going, or is that something you're kind of willing to like? Because I think with fiction, the most important thing you can do is go out and live your life and be inspired by people you talk to, with conversations you've had, and then that starts to inform where a book's going to go.

• 30:05Speaker 05

  Yeah. Well, it's interesting, you were talking about emotions, because this morning, as I was, as I was driving in, I was remembering, or I was thinking that Martha probably at some point in the next book will talk about naming emotions and how that gives us power over them. So there's so much interesting neuroscience at the moment, which might be quite nice for Martha to talk about, where if you are feeling overwhelmed by something, or really anxious about something, or stressed, literally naming those emotions, which is probably what Tom was talking about yesterday, gives you power over them. And it's not like going to town and saying, I'm feeling blah, but just literally saying overwhelmed. Anxious, fearful, whatever, you're not forcing them down because that never works.

• 30:48Speaker 05

  You're naming them down somehow because your amygdala, which I think is the stress, this is where you get the surge of emotion, that stops and the thinking, the prefrontal cortex or whatever kicks in and you start thinking and so the emotion subsides, which is incredible. So just this morning I was thinking, oh, I think Martha would quite enjoy that. So I'm already thinking about where Martha's going in her head, but I haven't quite got the plot yet.

• 31:12Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, oh, it will all come. I love that. I think there's something deeply powerful about using language to work out where we're at because I think certainly in our weird British culture, we're subliminally taught to sort of go, oh no, I shouldn't be feeling this. I should not be feeling this. I should be happier or I should be grateful and we ignore that feeling. And I think it's so important that we go, do you know what? I'm a bit sad at the moment and that's okay. Like we've all got permission to just feel it. You don't want to get stuck in anything, obviously. We want everything to be fluid and like my, um, my therapist too is just like saves my life again at the end. She's amazing. She'll say the word emotion is in it, like emotion, it's meant to move.

• 31:56Speaker 05

  Oh, interesting, yeah.

• 31:57Fearne Cotton?

  You can say, I feel sad and then you would look to then hopefully move through it. But I think when we're totally ignoring it, there's no motion because we don't even, we don't even know what we're feeling. We're going, no, I'm just going to be okay. I'm going to get through this and there's a lot of force. Whereas actually when you can give it a name and you allow it to be there, that's

• 32:16Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 32:16Fearne Cotton?

  Really, really powerful.

• 32:17Speaker 05

  Literally just giving it a name. And I think you're right because there's so much emphasis now on resilience and sort of which is, which is really good. But equally, yeah, we are all valuable, all vulnerable and actually just saying, yeah, actually feeling really lonely. You've said it and you can think about it and then you might, you might be able to fix it or you might not.

• 32:35Fearne Cotton?

  Exactly.

• 32:35Speaker 05

  But you are, as you say, moving forward and you've, you've done amazing stuff on that front.

• 32:39Fearne Cotton?

  Well, I just, I'm constantly living and breathing it and learning all about it. And it's so endlessly interesting.

• 32:45Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 32:46Fearne Cotton?

  Like the whole thing and we're all, you know, we all show up and give it our best every day and sometimes we have good days, sometimes we feel a bit crap. I actually like today, I feel very present, guys. I'm just going to put that out there. Yesterday I was a bit like, oh my God, I'm at the festival, there's lots of people, I can't cope. I was very overwhelmed. And then today I'm like, I'm really very much here. Okay. That's where I'm at today, uh, which is a good thing.

• 33:08Speaker 05

  Actually, the same goes, the same goes for positive stuff. See, I know this stuff about manifesting. I don't know enough about manifesting.

• 33:14Fearne Cotton?

  I think it's a load of shit.

• 33:15Speaker 05

  Know whether it works. Okay. Okay.

• 33:18Fearne Cotton?

  Just going to say that.

• 33:19Speaker 05

  The only thing I would say is that by the, all that, all that stuff about naming your, um, response, if anyone's interested, there's this great guy from the US called Matthew Lieberman, who's done those stuff on it. But there's a, um, woman called Lisa Feldman Barrett, who has also talked about, it sounds really ridiculous, but emotional granularity, which is all about having a high EQ, a high emotional quotient, whereas high IQ, being able to name your emotions, but also finding that if you use a positive word, if you compliment someone, if you stop going about insulting everyone in your head, saying fuck's sake all the time, um, then it's not actually, that's fuck's sake. What, how are you saying it?

• 33:59Fearne Cotton?

  Fuck's sake.

• 34:00Speaker 05

  Fuck's sake. Then actually you start to feel, again, you can raise your serotonin levels. So choosing those positive words and being truthful, not just ruthless for the compassion, then you might begin to feel it.

• 34:12Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 34:12Speaker 05

  I don't think that's quite the same as manifesting.

• 34:14Fearne Cotton?

  No, but I like, so let me contextualize me just saying that bold statement there. I think we've lost sight of like what the word manifesting means because I think in modern day parlance, it's become this kind of like, you know, make a mood board, dream that you're going to be in, you know, Rio, driving in a Ferrari and it will happen.

• 34:37Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 34:37Fearne Cotton?

  And that's not how life works. And also you could be driving a Ferrari in Rio and be miserable, absolutely miserable. So I always find it really hard when I hear people say like, just write your manifestation list. Cause I'm like, I now at this point in my life, and I've had, I've lived a weird life and I've had like lots of very big ups and downs and the bits where people assume you feel really, really great, you often don't. So if I were to write a list of, I would like to host the biggest TV show in the world, which I would have definitely perked when I was like 22. I did that and I was really unhappy, but then I equally have had like the most joyful moments that have boosted me and taught me things, literally like, I don't know, me

• 35:21Fearne Cotton?

  and my kids went on a nighttime walk the other night and I was buzzing, like absolutely felt like everything was fucking perfect in that moment. So what am I, what am I writing down apart from, I would like to feel mentally peaceful? I don't know. Like, I'm not quite sure.

• 35:37Speaker 05

  Yeah. I think you're right. It's the surprising moments, isn't it? That you can't plan for. So how can you manifest them?

• 35:42Fearne Cotton?

  I don't know. I, I, all I think we can do is like, hope that we keep learning and growing and expanding in the right way and not experiencing stagnancy or like getting stuck in stuff. I don't think there's any one event or anything that will truly make us like, has a guarantee to make us feel a certain way. So I, I'm really confused by manifesting is what I think I should say.

• 36:09Speaker 05

  Yeah, it's really interesting. I don't think I know much about it except yours, but you know, like do all those notes or whatever on your ceiling and just stare at them and then they will multiply.

• 36:18Fearne Cotton?

  And then it'll just happen. But I think what you said is really important because if you do, like I remember one time, I can't think whose book it was that I was reading, but it basically said, it might have been Louise Hay book and I love her books. And having like a little positive thing you can say to yourself, about yourself, or if you're nervous, like you've got to do, I don't know, public speaking, or you've got to do some confrontation or whatever, to have a little mantra in your head. I do think that works. I do think that makes you feel like, you say it boosts the serotonin, it makes you feel more grounded, it makes you feel like you can cope with what's about to come. That could be manifesting because you're manifesting the outcome of a current situation you're in by being in a more positive mindset. I think that might be manifesting.

• 37:01Speaker 05

  And also what might be manifesting for me is, um, and I knew I was saying at the time, so have you been on Taskmaster?

• 37:08Fearne Cotton?

  No.

• 37:08Speaker 05

  No. So I went on the, on Taskmaster and I literally said to myself before I started, you are going to be rubbish at this because I am not hugely practical for a start. And also when people expect me to excel at something, I will immediately then disappoint. And, um, and I was literally telling myself to fail.

• 37:27Fearne Cotton?

  Hmm.

• 37:28Speaker 05

  Whereas other people would be like, you're going to smash this. And I think that, that attitude, because I, I'd already decided I was, you know, so I think in that situation, it probably, it probably would help. That's a different kind, isn't it?

• 37:39Fearne Cotton?

  No, I think, well, yeah, like whatever, we need a word for the opposite of manifesting. We've probably all done that, haven't we? Like we've gone on a first date, we've gone to a job interview, we've gone and tried out, someone's arranged a hen party and it's an activity and we've said to everyone, I'm going to be shit at this. Like we've all done that. Like the opposite of manifesting is definitely real. So there has to be something in manifesting. I just don't know exactly what it is.

• 38:04Speaker 05

  Yeah, maybe, maybe we haven't discovered it yet.

• 38:06Fearne Cotton?

  Maybe we haven't. Maybe that will be my next book. It won't be. Um, look, Susie, thank you. I'm so grateful for you being here today.

• 38:15Speaker 05

  Oh, it's a joy.

• 38:16Fearne Cotton?

  What a joy to talk to you. What a joy this brilliant book is. If anyone wants like a very cozy, you say it's not cozy, it's also dark, dark and cozy. Uh, read for September, this is the book. Um, are you doing a book signing for us today?

• 38:28Speaker 05

  I am doing a book sign.

• 38:29Fearne Cotton?

  So if you, uh, weren't here yesterday or you've never been before, literally there is our beautiful book area and all day there are amazing authors signing loads of different books and you can buy lots of different books, some beautiful books there. So, um, do have a look at the schedule and if you're not part of our book club, head to Instagram, at Happy Place Book Club and you can hear about all the books that we're reading because we are a bunch of bookworms. Um, thank you so much and I'll see you for the next chat in a bit. Thank you, Susie.

• 38:55Speaker 05

  Thank you.

• 38:59Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, do you know what I want to do more than anything? Go for lunch with Tom Reed Wilson and Susie, who actually go for lunch together and they just both chat about words. Oh my God, I'm not clever enough, but maybe I could just sit there and listen and eat garlic bread. That's my plan. Oh, Susie, you wondrous human being. I just adored that chat. So fascinating. And if you haven't already listened to the chat with Tom Reed Wilson, I heard you do. Um, not only is it just lovely listening to him use beautifully long elaborate words, but we also talk a lot about nineties food. I don't know how we got onto it, but we couldn't get off of it. So do go and have a listen. There'll be a link in the show notes. Right. What are we all reading this month in the Happy Place Book Club?

• 39:44Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, this book. I'm so excited about this book. You know, when you can't wait to get into bed to read? That is this book. I was racing to get to bed so I could read it. It's Murder at the Grand Alpine Hotel by Lucy Foley and Agatha Christie. And this is so exciting. I'm going to be having a chat with Lucy live at the Pig Hotel near Bath on Wednesday, the 21st of October. We're going to have little drinks and nibbles. I want to dress up like I'm going to the Alpine Hotel for a start. Um, and of course we're going to have a delicious two course lunch as well. It's going to be sublime. Keep an eye out on Instagram, at Happy Place Book Club for more information about that.

• 40:27Fearne Cotton?

  And we'll take loads of pictures and show off about it, obviously. Until next time, a massive thanks again to Susie and to you lot. You are the best bookworms ever.

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