Why You Read Their Eyes First

Why would a grown man pay money to sit in the dark and be terrified, and what does that have to do with the reason the modern world feels like it is coming apart? In this lecture, Jordan Peterson argues that everything you think you know about how you see the world is backward: that you do not navigate by facts or reason but through a story, and that the direction you secretly aim decides what you are able to perceive at all. From the first date in a crowded restaurant to the three great stories fighting for control of the West, he builds toward an unsettling diagnosis of a civilization living unconsciously on inherited wealth, illustrated by nothing less than a children's cartoon and a myth older than the Bible. Then the writer Konstantin Kisin joins him on stage to push back, and their conversation turns to the hardest question of all, whether the ancient stories are merely useful or actually true, and what it would cost us to find out we cannot live without them. This lecture was filmed in Nashville, Tennessee, on April 5, 2024. Unlock the ad-free experience of The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast and dive into exclusive bonus content on DailyWire+. Start watching now: http://dwpluspeterson.com/yt ALL LINKS: https://feedlink.io/jordanbpeterson // LINKS // Peterson Academy https://petersonacademy.com Books - https://www.jordanbpeterson.com/books/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

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• 2:06Jordan B. Peterson?

  All these great bands, and here you are tonight. Well, thank you very much for coming. Let me tell you what's going to happen tonight. I'm going to share my thoughts with you for 70 minutes, thereabouts. Then I have a special guest here, Konstantin Kizan, who runs a podcast.

• 2:31Jordan B. Peterson?

  Good, well, you should know about him, definitely. Crazy Russian from the UK. A real, a real voice of reason for, for our, our fellow Westerners in the UK. Konstantin is going to come out on stage and torture me about what I said, I hope. Well, what I'm hoping, Konstantin is a very clear thinker, very witty man. He's got a very sharp mind. He's critically oriented in the best possible way. A good critical mind separates the wheat from the chaff, right? Because to be property critical isn't to hurt or destroy with criticism.

• 3:13Jordan B. Peterson?

  It's to separate what's truly valuable from what isn't valuable, so that you have the solid ground to stand on. And, you know, one of the things that I've strived to do in my whole academic career is to move closer and closer to believing and stating and writing things that I can't, I can't move. And you do that yourself by subjecting your own presumptions to critical analysis. You do that so that you think through what you're doing, so that you don't act out your stupid ideas in the world and die. And, and that's the purpose of thinking, right?

• 3:57Jordan B. Peterson?

  Seriously, the purpose of thinking is to have your stupid ideas die instead of you. And that's part of the reason why your enemy can be your best friend, because if someone can take out something you think, because they can show you how it's erroneous and counterproductive, and then you don't have to go through all the trouble of learning that stupidly in the world, that's a fine gift. And so I'm hoping that Konstantin can stand in for, for the, for the audience, for the critical and skeptical audience. We're talking about very difficult issues. It's highly likely that I could formulate what I'm stating more clearly and precisely.

• 4:40Jordan B. Peterson?

  And so Konstantin will come out and we'll discuss what was presented tonight, and then we'll turn to the questions that you've kindly delivered and discuss those. And, and then we'll reintroduce the band, and that should do for the evening. And so that's the plan. And so away we go. I'm very much looking forward to this.

• 5:14Jordan B. Peterson?

  So the first thing we're going to talk about is, we're going to talk about stories and, and set the stage. I think we're at a crucial inflection point in, in the world, culturally and philosophically. I think we're on the dawn of a new set of realizations. A new set of realizations that will return us to our fundamentals. I think the reason that we have a culture war raging in the West, why there's so much instability, is because something new is struggling to be born or reborn. And I want to explain the reason for that first.

• 5:58Jordan B. Peterson?

  And the reason is that the Enlightenment view of the world, which has guided our technological and scientific endeavor, our conceptual endeavor, our philosophical endeavor for a few hundred years, is there's something about it that's wrong, like deeply wrong. And that error is making itself manifest in the scientific community. Because I would say now that scientists themselves, from a multitude of different disciplines, understand that the idea that we see the world as a place of facts,

• 6:43Jordan B. Peterson?

  or that we see the world as rational creatures, or that you can even see the world that way, is wrong. Wrong. And I believe that it's, it's been demonstrated to be wrong. It's, this isn't a matter of mere philosophical opinion anymore, although it's also that. One example, for example, is that the newest artificial intelligence systems that we've designed, the large language models that have burst onto the stage in the last year or thereabouts, ChatGPT, the catastrophic Gemini that Google so foolishly launched, Elon Musk's Grok. These systems are trained like human beings are trained.

• 7:28Jordan B. Peterson?

  They have an aim. They have a purpose. They were trained with reward and punishment, so to speak. They're approximations to a target. They see the world through a structure of value that they have absorbed from human beings. To make the world's smartest linguistic machines, we had to inculcate in them a structure of value. Okay, and so, and, and we produce machines now that can engage in discourse, that can use language in a way that's virtually indistinguishable from the human, and it's going to become radically indistinguishable from the human very, very rapidly.

• 8:11Jordan B. Peterson?

  And they're not programmed like lists of rules. They're not programmed like ordinary thinking machines. They're programmed the same way that human beings learn. They're programmed with aim. They have an ethos and an ethic.

• 8:30Jordan B. Peterson?

  We can't orient ourselves in the world with the facts. We can't follow the science, because science isn't a leader. Science doesn't establish our aims. Our aims are established using mechanisms of perception and emotion and thought that aren't in themselves scientific. We're aiming at something.

• 8:59Jordan B. Peterson?

  ¿Por qué no nos orientamos en el mundo con los hechos? Bueno, la explicación más simple para eso es que hay demasiados hechos.

• 9:13Jordan B. Peterson?

  Hay tantos hechos como hay fenómenos. Más, en realidad. Hay tantos hechos como hay posibles combinaciones de fenómenos. Te derrumbas en los hechos. Cuando estás confundido en tu propia vida y las cosas son caóticas y estás ansioso, es porque una plethora de posibilidades se está manifestando ante ti y no sabes cuál es la manera de hacerlo. No tienes una dirección clara, no tienes un objetivo claro. No hay manera de simplificar el mundo para que puedas actuar en él. Sabemos, por ejemplo, que para percibir el mundo tienes que deshacerse de tu conciencia casi de todo lo que podrías ver, porque de lo contrario te

• 9:59Jordan B. Peterson?

  estás sobrecargado. Sabemos incluso que los hallucinantes que están estudiando con mayor intensidad en los últimos años interferen con tu percepción normal de tal manera que traen a la conciencia una plethora de cosas que bajo circunstancias normales ignoras. Y la consecuencia de eso es un influxo de un sentido de significado y sentido sobrecargante, pero al mismo tiempo una especie de parálisis de acción, porque cuando todo se vuelve infinitamente significativo, no hay una manera directa de avanzar. Cuando estás en un restaurante con alguien en una primera cita

• 10:42Jordan B. Peterson?

  y estás enfocando en la conversación y acciones de tu cita en una selva de conversaciones competidoras, zeras todo lo que podrías estar atendiendo en cualquier otra mesa, todos los pensamientos y pensamientos en tu imaginación, todas las cosas que podrías traer a la mente para zerar con precisión laser en lo que es que tu compañero en conversación está haciendo. Y eso lo haces en el mundo todo el tiempo. Haces una cosa a la vez de importancia pinnacle y arranjas todo lo demás en el mundo en cada momento que percibes

• 11:26Jordan B. Peterson?

  alrededor de esa cosa que has hecho de importancia pinnacle. Así es como ves el mundo, y no quiero decir pensar en el mundo. Esto está bajo pensamiento, es más profundo. Es lo que haces cuando realmente ves. Si decido hacer algo directo, como caminar de aquí a las escaleras del escenario y establecer mi objetivo, no percibo a ninguno de ustedes como consecuencia, porque el hecho de tu existencia es irrelevante para mi propósito y estás perdido. Ninguno de los hechos del escenario que podría atender

• 12:12Jordan B. Peterson?

  no son relevantes y perceptibles más que en su medida que son caminos o facilitadores o obstáculos para mi viaje hacia adelante. Si estoy mirando las escaleras, veo los asientos, pero no como lugares para sentarse. Los veo como obstáculos que tengo que superar para alcanzar mi objetivo. Todo lo que ves en el mundo se hace manifestar en consonancia con tu objetivo. Y esa es una manera radicalmente, revolucionariamente diferente de conceptualizar el mundo que

• 12:53Jordan B. Peterson?

  la noción de que tomas los hechos y los recueces a pesar de su número infinito y calculas tu camino con los hechos racionando hacia adelante. Eso no es lo que haces.

• 13:08Speaker 05

  Imagina tu lección favorita. Díselo en un Max, ponlo en esteroides y luego añade algunos elementos cinemáticos. Esa es la mejor manera de describir una lección de Peterson Academy.

• 13:21Speaker 06

  Fui a la universidad porque tenía que hacerlo. Voy a Peterson Academy porque quiero hacerlo. Todavía pago la universidad de hace diez años y también estoy cuestionando el valor que obtuve de la universidad.

• 13:30Speaker 05

  En las universidades tradicionales, muchas veces es bastante frío. No traen la misma energía que los profesores de Peterson Academy.

• 13:38Speaker 06

  Es una experiencia completamente diferente aprender de alguien que realmente quiere enseñarte.

• 13:42Speaker 03

  Si te preguntas sobre esto, es el momento.

• 13:46Speaker 07

  Esa cosa que te llama, no tendrás una respuesta a menos que envejeces y veas por ti mismo. Tienes la oportunidad de investigar ese llamado.

• 13:55Jordan B. Peterson?

  Aquí hay una proposición para contemplar. Es otra proposición que tiene significado revolucionario. Explica todo tipo de cosas que sabes ser verdad, pero no sabes por qué son verdad.

• 14:09Jordan B. Peterson?

  La descripción

• 14:12Jordan B. Peterson?

  de la estructura a través de la cual ves el mundo

• 14:18Jordan B. Peterson?

  es una historia.

• 14:21Jordan B. Peterson?

  Eso es lo que es una historia. Bien, ahora esto explica muchas cosas que se quedan de otra manera como misterios o efectos secundarios. Una vez leí un libro de Steven Pinker, Pinker es un racionalista de la Enlightenment de Harvard, un buen tipo y muy inteligente, y mucho de lo que dice es extraordinariamente útil, pero él cree, por ejemplo, que nuestra proclividad a disfrutar y contar historias es como un efecto secundario de algo más fundamental cognitivamente. Es la historia como teoría de entretenimiento. Vas a un cine porque es divertido. Lees un libro de ficción a tu hijo porque es divertido. No es el núcleo de

• 15:04Jordan B. Peterson?

  ¿Cómo dirías? No es un elemento central de la forma en que existes en el mundo. Es solo entretenimiento.

• 15:15Jordan B. Peterson?

  Esa teoría pierde el punto. ¿Por qué es entretenido? ¿Por qué puedes enseñar a los niños con historias? Si consigues la historia correcta para un niño, puedes capturar el interés del niño y puedes

• 15:30Jordan B. Peterson?

  integrar casi cualquier forma de aprendizaje en la historia y el niño será captivado por eso. Cuando los niños juegan, hacen el juego de prejuicio, lo hacen espontáneamente. Dramatizan espontáneamente el mundo. Espontáneamente hacen historias a partir de sus roles y sus y sus destinos. Y eso los captura. Eso forma la base de sus amistades. Por eso los niños quieren jugar de forma frenética, es que están practicando modelar el mundo. Cuando vas a ver un cine, no es que quieras ser entretenido, aunque es entretenido, eso no es por qué estás allí. No es para divertirnos tampoco.

• 16:12Jordan B. Peterson?

  Es fácil de entender y ver qué es divertido en un cine de terror. Estoy muy serio, es como

• 16:23Jordan B. Peterson?

  la gente estará tan aterrorizada en un cine de terror que cubrirán sus ojos. Se esconden detrás del asiento en frente de ellos. Se preguntarán después por qué incluso se lo pasaron por ellos. Y sin embargo, se rellamarán y pagarán por hacerlo. Bueno, ¿por qué se rellamarían y pagarían por torturarse? Bueno,

• 16:48Jordan B. Peterson?

  porque quieres saber cómo lidiar con lo que es horroroso.

• 16:52Jordan B. Peterson?

  Y quieres practicar eso de una manera, si puedes, que no es en sí misma fatal. Quieres exponerte a las catástrofes de la existencia para que estés preparado cuando esas catástrofes vienen. Quieres exponerte a los predadores que se esconden por todas partes. Quieres incurrirte en lo que es disgustoso y contaminante porque vas a tener que lidiar con ello. Quieres exponerte a lo que es aterrador para que puedas encontrar el coraje dentro de ti para lidiar con lo que es aterrador. Y eso es parte del instinto para desarrollar y expandir tu competencia. Y es en esa expansión de competencia y habilidad que ocurre como consecuencia de esa exposición voluntaria

• 17:36Jordan B. Peterson?

  que el entretenimiento está situado. La razón por la que es entretenido es porque es parte de la manera en la que te expandes. Y puedes hacer eso en la dirección de lo oscuro y terrible justo como puedes en la dirección de, digamos, lo heroico. ¿Qué haces cuando vas a un cine? Vas a un personaje y entiendes ese personaje de la misma manera que entiendes a la gente con la que estás en conversación. Ahora, puede que pienses que la forma en que entiendes a la gente es por escuchar lo que dicen y extraer el conocimiento que te están entregando en términos de hechos y interpretar los hechos y derivar tu comprensión de la persona. Ninguno de esos es verdad.

• 18:20Jordan B. Peterson?

  Eso tiene absolutamente nada que ver con cómo estableces una relación con alguien. Y bueno, aquí hay algunas pruebas. ¿Es eso lo que haces con un perro? Bueno, obviamente no, pero puedes establecer una relación con un perro. Y la relación que tienes con el perro no es la misma que la relación con una persona, pero un perro es un animal de pascua. El perro puede convertirse en miembro de la familia. Puedes entender al perro lo suficientemente bien para que el perro te guste. Correcto, y así, lo que sea que estés haciendo con el perro, no es discours sobre proposiciones, porque la mayoría de los perros que posees no hablan. Así que y es lo mismo con los niños muy jóvenes.

• 19:06Jordan B. Peterson?

  Es lo mismo con un niño. Estableces una relación utilizando mecanismos que no son proposicionales. No son reglas, no son descripciones, no son hechos. Así es como lo haces. ¿Cómo lo haces? ¿Dónde miras cuando hablas con alguien? Miras sus ojos. ¿Por qué? Para ver dónde los están señalando. ¿Por qué? Para que puedas ver lo que están mirando. ¿Por qué? Para que puedas inferir lo que es importante para ellos. Porque nos señalan sus ojos, que es lo que es importante para nosotros. Por eso nuestros ojos miran de la forma que se ven. Negro en el medio, colorado en la red alrededor de eso, contra un fondo blanco. Ese es un mecanismo evolucionario. Puedo ver sus ojos.

• 19:52Jordan B. Peterson?

  Todos nuestros ancestros, cuyos ojos no eran visibles, o murieron o no reproducieron. Lo único que quieres saber sobre alguien, de inmediato, es dónde diablos están señalando sus ojos. Y puedes hacerlo con calma, lo que haces al atender a alguien, sin demasiado mirar a la espalda. Lo haces al atender con calma a su cara, pero no demasiado intensamente, y no atendiendo, digamos, inapropiadamente a otras partes de su cuerpo.

• 20:22Jordan B. Peterson?

  Y van a estar viendo que te ves con tus ojos. Porque lo único que quieres saber sobre alguien, sobre todo, es ¿qué diablos están haciendo? ¿Cuál es su objetivo? Y así, cuando vas a un cine, eso es lo que haces, cuando ves a un personaje en un papel, lo ves en una variedad de situaciones diferentes. Y ves cómo estructura su atención, a qué le presta atención. Su atención es un negocio costoso. Y así, la gente presta atención a lo que valía. Ves lo que atienden. Y ves cómo priorizan sus acciones. Y de ahí, derivas una comprensión de lo que es importante para ellos.

• 21:07Jordan B. Peterson?

  Tan pronto que entiendas lo que es importante para ellos, tienes su objetivo. Te has descubierto a ese personaje. Esto es lo que haces cuando aprendes a conocer a alguien. ¿Cuál es su objetivo? Tan pronto que conoces su objetivo,

• 21:24Jordan B. Peterson?

  puedes ver el mundo a través de sus ojos. Puedes ver los mismos objetos que ven, y los objetos toman la misma importancia emocional. Y cuando dices, "Vengo a entender a alguien", lo que realmente quieres decir es, "Oh, entiendo su objetivo, y ahora puedo objetivizar a la misma cosa, al menos en simulación, al menos en ficción, y puedo llegar a inhabitar el mismo mundo de percepción y emoción que ellos habitan". Incluso puedo suponer cómo actuarán y a qué se atenderán en situaciones que no he visto, porque ahora sé su objetivo. ¿Qué está haciendo? Eso es lo que piensas en un misterio de asesinato o en un thrill. ¿Qué está haciendo? ¿Qué está haciendo? ¿Qué va a pasar después?

• 22:05Jordan B. Peterson?

  Y así, la trama de la ficción es el objetivo del personaje a través del tiempo. El objetivo mientras el personaje se desarrolla. Y eso podría involucrar la transformación de sus objetivos también. ¿Verdad? Y eso sería la transformación de un personaje en un cine. Objetiva una cosa y aprende que ese objetivo está fuera de lugar, de alguna manera. O viene a un final triste y desmedido y tiene que cambiar de camino. Y quieres ver a la gente transformar sus objetivos. Ese es el desarrollo de personajes.

• 22:38Jordan B. Peterson?

  Vemos el mundo a través de una historia.

• 22:42Jordan B. Peterson?

  Los objetos del mundo se revelan en relación con nuestro objetivo. El paisaje de la emoción se presenta como marcadores en el camino a nuestro objetivo. El mundo se revela en acordance con nuestro objetivo. Así es como funciona la percepción. Eso es una cosa terrible de aprender. Porque si el mundo, por ejemplo, aparece a ti solo como obstáculos con espaldas, ¿verdad? Si sientes que todo está en contra de ti y no hay camino hacia adelante. Si sientes que estás rodeado de enemigos y obstáculos en lugar de caminar el camino dorado acompañado de aliados con el mundo a tu lado,

• 23:25Jordan B. Peterson?

  podrías preguntarte si tu objetivo es incorrecto.

• 23:31Jordan B. Peterson?

  Y así, el mundo se presenta en acordance con nuestro objetivo. Vamos... Producimos ficción, generamos ficción. Vivimos en un paisaje de ficción porque queremos obtener nuestro objetivo correcto. Leemos historias, vemos películas, vamos a shows, hablamos entre nosotros porque queremos obtener nuestro objetivo correcto. Queremos encontrar el lugar donde deberíamos ir y queremos aprender cómo llegar there eficientemente. Y estamos forzados por espíritu e instinto a establecer el objetivo y seguir el camino.

• 24:12Jordan B. Peterson?

  Y transformarnos para que nuestro objetivo se vuelva cada vez más preciso y eficiente y nos entregue un mundo que sea cada vez más abundante y hermoso. Y eso es todo una función de objetivo.

• 24:34Jordan B. Peterson?

  Bien, así que vivimos en una historia. Bueno, entonces, tan pronto que lo conozcas, esto es lo que los postmodernistas descubrieron. Por cierto, es por eso que los críticos literarios han convertido a una fuerza dominante en la guerra cultural. Los postmodernistas eran críticos literarios. Piensan, "Bueno, no hay nada más irrelevante que un crítico literario". ¿Quién diablos le importa lo que un intelectual piensa sobre una historia? Quiero decir, de todas las cosas preposterosas a las que te preocupas, eso podría estar en la lista. No si la historia es la cosa a través de la cual ves el mundo. Si la historia es la cosa que ves a través de la cual ves el mundo, no hay nada más poderoso que un crítico literario, excepto quizás un autor. Y no tendríamos una guerra cultural ahora mismo

• 25:15Jordan B. Peterson?

  si el crítico literario no fuera mucho más poderoso que cualquier persona que hubiera imaginado. Porque los intelectuales literarios franceses conocidos como los postmodernistas han criticado la historia central del Occidente a la muerte. Y es por eso que tenemos una guerra cultural. Y no es una broma. Esto es fundamental. No hay más conflicto serio que eso. Y todos pueden sentirlo. Por eso estás aquí. Sabes que el mundo está estancado y incierto de una manera que es nueva. Y la razón de eso es que la historia misma está bajo ataque.

• 25:53Jordan B. Peterson?

  Bien, así que vamos a atravesar eso un poco.

• 25:57Jordan B. Peterson?

  Ves el mundo a través de una historia.

• 26:00Jordan B. Peterson?

  Los racionales o los empiristas, incluso los biólogos, podrían tener una respuesta a eso. Dicen, "Bien, lo suficientemente justo. Ves el mundo a través de una historia". Pero la historia es biológicamente determinada o socioculturalmente determinada. Es una historia de sexo. Eso sería Freud. Porque para Freud y para Charles Darwin, por ese motivo, para Richard Dawkins, el famoso ateo, a un igual grado,

• 26:23Jordan B. Peterson?

  la historia... El...

• 26:28Jordan B. Peterson?

  El objetivo es sexo, reproducción, y la historia está predicada en ese objetivo. Freud, Darwin, Dawkins.

• 26:43Jordan B. Peterson?

  El elemento degenerado de eso es un descenso a un tipo de hedonismo. Porque si el sexo es la historia, entonces, ¿por qué no adorar el sexo?

• 26:56Jordan B. Peterson?

  Y algunos discuten eso y dicen, "No, la historia central no es el sexo". Esto serían los marxistas. La historia central es

• 27:07Jordan B. Peterson?

  poder.

• 27:10Jordan B. Peterson?

  Esa es la historia que las universidades cuentan cuando no cuentan la historia sobre el sexo.

• 27:16Jordan B. Peterson?

  Todo se trata de poder.

• 27:19Jordan B. Peterson?

  El objetivo humano es dominación, opresión, victimización, explotación. El tema central de la familia es una dinámica de poder. El tema central de la relación entre hombres y mujeres es una dinámica de poder. El matrimonio mismo es un establecimiento heteronormativo patriarcal de opresión que vuelve a la luz del tiempo. La familia nuclear es lo mismo. Los arreglos económicos no son nada más que poder. Las amistades no son nada más que poder. El paisaje de la interacción humana es una dinámica de poder. O sexo.

• 28:04Jordan B. Peterson?

  O ambos. O ambos luchando contra el otro.

• 28:09Jordan B. Peterson?

  Miren, estas son ideas poderosas. ¿Por qué? Bueno, obvio. Es obvio. ¿Por qué? Quiero decir, en primer lugar, sin sexo no hay reproducción, y sin reproducción no hay gente. Y así, la afirmación del gen selfish de Darwin, Freud, Richard Dawkins es que... Bueno, ¿qué podría ser, además de sexo?

• 28:35Jordan B. Peterson?

  Y los marxistas vienen adelante y dicen, "¿Qué hay de poder?"

• 28:41Jordan B. Peterson?

  Y luego los marxistas dicen, "Bueno, obviamente es poder, porque

• 28:46Jordan B. Peterson?

  hay desigualdad radical en el mundo. Hay algunos que lo tienen y algunos que no lo tienen". No hay razón para suponer que la propiedad en la análisis final, digamos, no es una forma de robo. Y todos los que se han establecido de alguna manera han hecho eso solo robando de los que son impotentes y que tienen menos de todo lo que tienen y lo acumulan a sí mismos. Y eso es una afirmación creíble por una variedad de razones. La primera y más fundamental razón es que una minoría de personas tiene todo el éxito en cualquier dimensión posible de comparación.

• 29:21Jordan B. Peterson?

  Es un número muy pequeño de personas que son radicalmente atractivas. Es un número muy pequeño de personas que son radicalmente donados en los artes visuales, digamos. Es un porcentaje radicalmente pequeño de personas que son músicos. Un pequeño porcentaje de la gente tiene la mayor parte del dinero. Un pequeño porcentaje de la gente recibe la mayor parte de la atención.

• 29:40Jordan B. Peterson?

  Es una distribución de peritos, y eso es lo que Marc señaló. Los ricos se vuelven más ricos y los pobres se vuelven pobre. Y hay verdad real en eso, y hay verdad en la afirmación de que...

• 29:53Jordan B. Peterson?

  La gente estructura sus relaciones con el poder. Y que algunas personas que obtienen éxito lo hacen como consecuencia de explotación. Y es igualmente cierto que cuando cualquier relación humana deteriora, tiende a deteriorarse en la relación de poder. Si tu matrimonio comienza a volar, entonces empiezas a explotar entre ti mismo, a usar la fuerza. Tratas de conseguir tu camino, tratas de dominar. Es lo mismo en cualquier familia que deteriora en un estado de patología. Es lo mismo en cualquier organización. Hemos visto grandes estados deteriorar en el uso tiránico de poder. Si tuvieras que identificar un atributo cardenal de la humanidad,

• 30:38Jordan B. Peterson?

  el poder es una hipótesis razonable.

• 30:45Jordan B. Peterson?

  Pero pensamos en eso por un minuto. Así que imagina que...

• 30:52Jordan B. Peterson?

  Bueno, imagina que es el sexo lo que es y debe ser la historia completa de la humanidad. Bueno, ¿qué significa exactamente eso? ¿Qué es un mundo organizado en esa base? ¿Cómo se ve un mundo organizado en esa base? Bueno, no hay nada más importante que el sexo. Bueno, ¿qué tal la gratificación sexual inmediata cuando quieras? ¿Qué tal la gratificación sexual inmediata como el arquetipo del hedonismo? ¿Qué tal la gratificación sexual inmediata cuando quieras, independientemente de lo que cualquier otra persona tenga que decir sobre ello? Porque si es la historia y es la historia fundamental, entonces, ¿qué me impide obtener acceso a lo que quiero ahora mismo, independientemente del costo para cualquier otra persona?

• 31:38Jordan B. Peterson?

  Si no hay nada más allá de eso, si solo el pobre cree que hay algo noble sobre la humanidad más allá de la demanda inmediata de reproducción, entonces, ¿qué tienes que decir que es moral sobre el sexo? ¿Y por qué diablos no debería todo el mundo hacer exactamente lo que quiere, con quien quiera, cuando quiera, todo el tiempo?

• 32:01Jordan B. Peterson?

  Y con el poder puedes hacer exactamente el mismo argumento. Y las sociedades clásicas, las sociedades aristocráticas, las sociedades militaristas y marciales están predica en esta idea. Si puedo llevarte alrededor,

• 32:16Jordan B. Peterson?

  todo eso indica que debería llevarte alrededor, porque si eres tan débil que puedo llevarte alrededor, no tienes absolutamente ningún motivo para estar en contra de mí. Porque si eres moral por las tradiciones del poder, no estaría capaz de llevarte alrededor. Y así es muy difícil argumentar de eso desde una perspectiva racional. ¿Por qué no se justifica? ¿Y por qué no son solo los débiles los que afirman que eso es incorrecto? ¿Y por qué no son solo los débiles los que afirman que eso es incorrecto? No porque sean morales, sino porque son débiles. Eso certamente sería un esfuerzo en la noción de Nietzsche que el deseo al poder constituye el núcleo de la humanidad.

• 32:59Jordan B. Peterson?

  Y diría que hasta la luz de la ética judaíocristiana, digamos, el poder gobernaba. Y luego podríamos imaginar qué tipo de mundo es cuando el poder gobierna. Bueno, sabemos qué es ese mundo. Es como... Presta atención al más fuerte o sufrir las consecuencias.

• 33:20Jordan B. Peterson?

  Bueno, ¿hay algo más allá de eso? Que no es solo perversidad.

• 33:28Jordan B. Peterson?

  ¿Qué es...? Si no es el poder la historia y si no es el sexo la historia, ¿cuál es la historia?

• 33:39Jordan B. Peterson?

  Para el Occidente, la respuesta a eso es la biblioteca de la Biblia.

• 33:46Jordan B. Peterson?

  Esa es la historia. Es la historia sobre la que el Occidente se fundó. Es la historia que ha surgido durante miles de años, decenas de miles de años en ese caso,

• 34:04Jordan B. Peterson?

  tratando de abordar el problema central.

• 34:09Jordan B. Peterson?

  ¿Cuál es la historia fundamental? No es un misterio hacer el afirmación de que... El afirmación de la biblioteca de historias bíblica, como es una biblioteca, es que es la historia fundamental. Bien, así que...

• 34:27Jordan B. Peterson?

  Vivimos en una historia.

• 34:30Jordan B. Peterson?

  Hemos identificado a los competidores, el poder y el sexo. ¿Qué es lo que se expresa en la historia bíblica? Mira, si vas a un cine, lees un libro complejo. Vas a un cine sofisticado, un juego sofisticado, un juego de Shakespeare. O lees un trabajo de ficción sofisticado. Ves una caracterización multidimensional. ¿Verdad? Un libro de cómic tiene un héroe con un motivo. Un trabajo de ficción sofisticado tiene un héroe, y tal vez un antihéroe, con motivaciones multidimensionales complejas. Lo que caracteriza a esas personas más realistas no es reducible a cualquier atributo.

• 35:15Jordan B. Peterson?

  Y en un trabajo complicado de ficción, el autor te recoge a través de una caracterización multidimensional. Ves a la misma persona, el héroe, apuntando hacia arriba, el antihéroe o villano apuntando hacia abajo. Ves a esa persona retratada en múltiples situaciones diferentes. Y como... Pursuando reflejos parciales de su objetivo final. Y como consecuencia de eso, aprendes a entender y embotar esa compleja de objetivos.

• 35:53Jordan B. Peterson?

  Cuando ves un cine y ves al héroe, ves al héroe para aprender a actuar como héroe. Cuando ves un cine y ves al antihéroe o al villano, ves el cine para aprender a no fallar catastróficamente y caer en el infierno mientras llevas a todos los demás con ti.

• 36:14Jordan B. Peterson?

  ¿Es reducible a algo tan simple como el poder o el sexo? No si no es un libro de cómic. Necesitas una caracterización multidimensional. Bien.

• 36:29Jordan B. Peterson?

  El corpus bíblico proporciona una caracterización multidimensional del objetivo fundamental de la humanidad y el cosmos. Esa es la afirmación del libro. Así que voy a te recorrer algunas de las historias y te mostrar lo que se está revelando.

• 36:47Jordan B. Peterson?

  Lo que se está revelando es el objeto adecuado de la adoración. Bien, ¿entonces qué significa eso? El objeto adecuado de la celebración. El objetivo hacia el que todos los sacrificios y trabajo se dirige. Lo que debe ser mantenido en el mayor respeto. Lo que debe ser imitado en ritual y admiración. Bien, así que esa es la idea.

• 37:13Jordan B. Peterson?

  La admiración de la misma manera que un niño pequeño que adora al héroe

• 37:21Jordan B. Peterson?

  al niño de la calle que es el estrella del béisbol, porque ese niño retrata un patrón de habilidad y atención que es el siguiente paso apropiado de desarrollo para el niño adorando al héroe. Eso es una recreación del impulso religioso. El impulso de mirar hacia arriba, admirar y imitar. La pregunta es, ¿a qué debemos dirigir nuestra atención? Mirar hacia arriba, admirar y imitar.

• 37:55Jordan B. Peterson?

  Ese objeto de apreciación y admiración más alto es por definición Dios. Es una definición.

• 38:09Jordan B. Peterson?

  Es el objetivo más alto que se esconde detrás de todos los objetivos cercanos. Esa es una buena forma de pensar en eso. Es el objetivo hacia arriba tal y como es. Bien, ¿cómo lo llevas a la tierra? Bueno, empecemos con Genesis 1. Había una caracterización de Dios y la humanidad en Genesis 1.

• 38:30Jordan B. Peterson?

  La historia abre en la luz del tiempo, en el comienzo de las cosas. Ese no es exactamente el comienzo del tiempo. Es usualmente como se lee, pero es más complejo que eso. No es solo el comienzo del tiempo en el sentido linear, sino que es el comienzo de todas las cosas que empiezan. Esto es lo que pasa cada vez que algo empieza. Esto es lo que pasa cada vez que algo nuevo hace su entrada en el mundo. Es el comienzo continuo que continuamente se desarrolla que pasó y que está sucediendo ahora y que siempre pasará. Es el patrón de la emergencia del orden fuera del caos que se manifiesta.

• 39:17Jordan B. Peterson?

  En la forma de tu vida,

• 39:21Jordan B. Peterson?

  ¿cómo está el escenario? El Espíritu de Dios

• 39:27Jordan B. Peterson?

  sobe sobre el agua, sobre el profundo.

• 39:31Jordan B. Peterson?

  Escuchas que

• 39:34Jordan B. Peterson?

  en la tradición judía-christiana, Dios

• 39:39Jordan B. Peterson?

  engendra al mundo, ex nihilo, de nada. Eso no es como se establece la historia. Se establece con el Espíritu de Dios sobe sobre los ríos, pero no es agua. Esa no es la palabra. La agua es una de las imágenes simbólicas tratando de hacer lo que se describe claro usando una secuencia de metáforas complejas. La palabra para el agua sobre la que el Espíritu de Dios sobe es tohu vabohu, o tehom. Y significa, significa muchas cosas. Significa el dragón que vive en el fondo del túnel más profundo. Significa

• 40:23Jordan B. Peterson?

  las profundidades inplumables del océano más abismal. Significa el agua que produce la vida. Significa

• 40:35Jordan B. Peterson?

  el túnel infinito de la propia posibilidad. Significa la confusión que recae cuando tu mundo se desmorona. Significa el día que se manifiesta cuando te despiertas.

• 40:58Jordan B. Peterson?

  Significa todo eso. Significa el dragón que el dios arcaico cortó en pedazos y formó el mundo. Significa que es el hidra que Hercules derrotó para formar el mundo. Es todo eso. ¿Entonces qué significa eso?

• 41:19Jordan B. Peterson?

  Significa que el Espíritu de ser y de ser genera el mundo de la posibilidad.

• 41:27Jordan B. Peterson?

  ¿Qué significa eso? Eso es lo que hace tu conciencia. Eso es lo que haces. Ves, piensas que estás rodeado de un mundo de objetos que manipulas de una forma robótica, pero no te preocupas por los objetos que son estáticos. Te preocupas por lo que puedes transformar dinámicamente. Cuando te despiertas en la mañana, lo que te presenta es un campo de oportunidades indeterminadas.

• 41:55Jordan B. Peterson?

  Por eso te preocupas o quizás te emociona porque tienes algo con lo que tratar que aún no ha llegado a ser. Las posibilidades del día y podrías pensar, oh, Dios mío, tengo muchas cosas que hacer, estoy abrumado, es demasiado. Bueno, eso es tohu vabohu, ese es el caos y la confusión. Es una plethora de posibilidades. Piensas, oh, Dios mío, ¿cuántos caminos hay para que las cosas se vuelvan mal? Bueno, es el serpiente de múltiples cabezas que el héroe siempre confronta. ¿Y qué tienes que hacer con eso? Es como, bueno,

• 42:32Jordan B. Peterson?

  ¿vas a establecer el orden que es bueno a lo largo del día? Porque eso es lo que te es llamado a hacer. Y es tu recreación de lo que Dios mismo hace al principio del tiempo que constituye la acción de tu conciencia en la posibilidad que está ante ti. Tienes un microcosmo de plenitud y posibilidad justo ante ti en cualquier momento que puedes luchar para el orden si tu objetivo es correcto. El proceso que Dios depende de para extraer el cosmos, el orden que es bueno del

• 43:17Jordan B. Peterson?

  túnel de la posibilidad no formada es la palabra, es el logos. ¿Qué significa eso?

• 43:30Jordan B. Peterson?

  ¿Cuánto dios puedes traer a ser al decir las palabras equivocadas a tu esposa?

• 43:37Jordan B. Peterson?

  Bien, ahora tu esposa es quien es, pero también es quien podría convertirse, como no hay duda de haber notado muchas veces. Y puedes extraer algo bueno o algo terrible de la posibilidad que representa con la aplicación cautosa y amorosa de tus palabras o con la aplicación cuidosa y orgullosa y descriptiva de tus palabras. Y el mundo en el que vives

• 44:05Jordan B. Peterson?

  será radicalmente diferente dependiendo de cuál de esos dos enfoques aplicas. Y eso será exactamente lo mismo con cualquiera que hablas y cómo te tratas a ti mismo y cómo interactúas con el mundo de tal manera. Porque hay

• 44:23Jordan B. Peterson?

  una provisión de posibilidad que te ofrecen como participante en el proceso de la creación que formula en acordance con tu objetivo. ¿Cuál es la insistencia en Genesis 1?

• 44:40Jordan B. Peterson?

  Aim for love.

• 44:43Jordan B. Peterson?

  Así que si quieres establecer el paraíso de tu hogar en relación con tu esposa y tus hijos, te centras en lo mejor para el mejor en ellos. Te ofreces la seguridad que puedes imaginar, esas son las paredes de un jardín sellado, y te presentas a ellos el desafío que les permite desarrollar y desarrollar óptimamente. Y lo haces adecuadamente si te centras en lo mejor, lo más alto. Y ese es el Espíritu de Dios que se manifiesta

• 45:27Jordan B. Peterson?

  en los ríos de la posibilidad. Ese es el embodiment, la fuente, la fuente inicial y el espíritu de

• 45:38Jordan B. Peterson?

  el amor de la meta hacia arriba.

• 45:42Jordan B. Peterson?

  Puedes entender esto al entender qué tipo

• 45:48Jordan B. Peterson?

  de jardín sellado produces en tu propia casa con tu objetivo.

• 45:54Jordan B. Peterson?

  Dios

• 45:58Jordan B. Peterson?

  lucha con la posibilidad que aún no se manifiesta y crea el orden cosmico como consecuencia, en secuencia.

• 46:10Jordan B. Peterson?

  Creando las divisiones fundamentales para empezar. La separación de luz y oscuridad. Ese es el fenómeno del día y la noche. La separación de la tierra de los ríos. El establecimiento del domo del cielo sobre el disco de la tierra.

• 46:26Jordan B. Peterson?

  Poblaciona el mundo con sus seres creados y en el sexto día produce al hombre y dice en su propia imagen.

• 46:43Jordan B. Peterson?

  Así que ahora tenemos una caracterización de Dios, quien es el proceso dinámico que produce el orden desde la propia posibilidad en conservación del objetivo más alto posible. Y tenemos una caracterización del ser humano como un microcosmo de ese proceso. La noción de que cada uno de nosotros tiene un valor que es trascendental y no dado por el estado, no dado por ti mismo, no dado por otros individuos, está predicado en esa imagen. Quiero decir eso históricamente y lo quiero decir conceptualmente. La noción es que

• 47:29Jordan B. Peterson?

  una de las nociones es que el estado mismo tiene que darle a ti el valor de

• 47:39Jordan B. Peterson?

  alguien creado en la imagen de el creador mismo en orden incluso para el estado existir, mantenerse y transformarse. Que el estado mismo no puede funcionar a menos que

• 47:56Jordan B. Peterson?

  establezca una frontera sagrada entre sus operaciones y la operación de la psique, la psique humana, el espíritu humano que es una manifestación del Dios que genera el orden que es bueno desde la posibilidad. Y podrías preguntar,

• 48:14Jordan B. Peterson?

  ¿quién cree eso? Y diría trate de hablar con una persona una vez sin creerlo y ve cómo va. Nos llamamos a nosotros mismos todo el tiempo, especialmente en nuestras relaciones íntimas, para ser tratados como si somos el locus del valor. Y si te tratas a las personas de esa manera, si te respetas de esa manera, si te percibes de esa manera, si te animas en ese camino de desarrollo.

• 48:49Jordan B. Peterson?

  Todo o que você interage com seres humanos abrirá-se para você e preencherá sua vida com abundância. Todo mundo quer ser tratado dessa maneira. E a razão disso é que está em conformidade com nossa natureza essencial. E que aquele tratamento hospitável, bem-vindo, encorajador, orientado para cima, amoroso, é o objetivo e atitude com o qual a alma, a comunidade e o próprio ordenamento natural dependem da sua integridade.

• 49:35Jordan B. Peterson?

  Seu país está predicado nessa noção. A ideia de que cada um de vocês é endossado com direitos inalienáveis e suas responsabilidades requisitas é um refletido direto dessa conceptualização. E uma das coisas que você pode se lembrar frequentemente é o fato de que seu país não seria o que é, que é a aproximação mais próxima a uma cidade brilhante na montanha que foi estabelecida até agora no travéu da humanidade sem essa concepção fundamental. Certo?

• 50:16Jordan B. Peterson?

  Então você pode dizer: "Bem, é verdade?" E a resposta é: "Não é o inferno."

• 50:25Jordan B. Peterson?

  Eu quero dizer isso porque muitos países são infernos. E são infernos de uma maneira que abre-se para um abismo e tem a possibilidade de um abismo mais profundo restringido dentro dele, que abrirá-se com a possibilidade de um abismo mais profundo dentro disso. E é isso que acontece quando essa caracterização fundamental é rejeitada de uma maneira revolucionária ou abandonada sem cuidado. E vimos isso para todos nós que não acreditamos e não concepcionalizam a metafísica inferno como real. Vimos a metafísica inferno realizada no século XX muitas vezes.

• 51:09Jordan B. Peterson?

  Se alguém, tendo abandonado suas presuposições metafísicas, foi tão cego que apenas uma lição de objeto bastaria.

• 51:22Jordan B. Peterson?

  Alemanha Nazista, União Soviética sob Stalin, Partido Comunista chino sob Mao. Se isso não for o suficiente para o inferno para você, então eu diria que você deveria rezar que você não seja introduzido em algo ainda pior por os propósitos de convencê-lo sobre o que é real.

• 51:49Jordan B. Peterson?

  No segundo...

• 51:56Jordan B. Peterson?

  Deus anuncia duas coisas, três coisas, quatro coisas uma vez que cria o homem. Ele diz: "O homem deve cuidar do jardim." Esse é o seu propósito. Por que um jardim? É um jardim de muro, na verdade, porque é o que o paraíso significa, jardim de muro. Por que um jardim de muro? Bem, um jardim é um lugar da natureza, obviamente. E os muros são um lugar de cultura. E um jardim de muro é um lugar da natureza encapsulado de uma maneira manejável pelos muros da cultura. É isso que é o seu quintal. É um jardim, é natureza, tem muros, os muros são cultura. Os muros você pode pensar como entidades físicas, como objetos,

• 52:39Jordan B. Peterson?

  mas o seu colégio tem fronteiras se você não tiver um feno. E seus vizinhos sabem onde estão as fronteiras. E onde são as fronteiras? Bem, elas estão na imaginação de seus vizinhos. Eu estou morto sério sobre isso. Os muros... É muito engraçado porque você vai ver pessoas na fronteira entre Canadá e os Estados Unidos. Eles vão sair e vão andar por cima da fronteira. É como se fosse um objeto, como se fosse uma entidade que está lá no chão. E as pessoas sabem que isso é magia de algum sentido, porque a grama

• 53:13Jordan B. Peterson?

  em Canadá é apenas um pouco menos saudável do que a grama nos Estados Unidos, digamos.

• 53:23Jordan B. Peterson?

  É fácil concretizar isso, mas a ideia de um espaço de muro em uma sociedade comunal é um acordo social. Você tem seu domínio, sua casa, seu jardim, seu quintal. É o suficiente cosmos para você estabelecer direito. E talvez se você for competente o suficiente para fazer mais, você expandirá seu jardim para que você tenha mais a cuidar. Mas você começa com um jardim de muro de algum tamanho. E se você o cuidar adequadamente, então a promessa é que conforme sua competência cresce, também seu domínio.

• 54:04Jordan B. Peterson?

  "Homem enviado para cuidar do jardim e para nomear tudo o que está nele." Este é Adam. O que isso significa? Bem, é o logotipo novamente. É uma rerepresentação da Espírita Criativa de Deus que se manifesta quando o tempo começa e quando novas coisas surgem. A nossa habilidade de nomear, a nossa habilidade de falar, é isso de uma forma microcosmica. É o que estamos capazes de fazer. É o que o Espírito Patriarcal faz, é nomear e ordenar o mundo. E Deus traz tudo para Adam para ver o que ele nomeará. E isso é um refletido da ideia de que

• 54:48Jordan B. Peterson?

  temos um ordenamento criado, mas o homem tem um lugar nele. E o lugar é organizar e colocar tudo no seu lugar correto e atribuir à ele sua identidade. E isso não é diferente da priorização da atenção que faz parte da história. Nome as coisas em relação à sua função. Colocar as coisas em lugar em relação à sua importância

• 55:18Jordan B. Peterson?

  na hierarquia do ser. Oriente-as, oriente todas as coisas nomeadas para cima. Sequência, restringir, organizar e ordenar. A manifestação do Espírito Patriarcal. E o que Deus decide? "Isso não é bom o suficiente." O homem falta um auxílio. O homem precisa de um auxílio. Mulher é criada como consequência, porque o ordenamento que os homens produzem

• 55:53Jordan B. Peterson?

  por causa de suas limitações é insuficiente. E algo tem que ser introduzido para falar por aquilo que não está incluído. Esse é o papel da mulher. Esse é o papel bíblico da mulher. É o papel biológico da mãe. Você sabe isso em sua própria casa.

• 56:17Jordan B. Peterson?

  Mulher traz as preocupações dos marginalizados para o centro. Você pode pensar sobre isso politicamente. É útil pensar sobre isso politicamente. Todas as ordens humanas estabelecidas excluem. A exclusão causa dor. A dor de exclusão requer uma voz. Essa é a voz da mãe eterna.

• 56:44Jordan B. Peterson?

  É onde o Genesis 1 termina.

• 56:48Jordan B. Peterson?

  Genesis 2 contém a história de Adam e Eve. É outra história de criação. É comemorante com a primeira. É uma variação de um tema.

• 57:04Jordan B. Peterson?

  Deus cria Adam de matéria, terra e oxigênio, espírito. Por que? Porque é isso que são seres humanos. Somos criaturas materiais que são animadas. "Anima" significa espírito.

• 57:25Jordan B. Peterson?

  O que é o espírito?

• 57:28Jordan B. Peterson?

  O espírito é o princípio de organização vivo do material. E os seres humanos são um alargamento do princípio de organização vivo e do material. E é isso que é retratado na criação de Adam. A combinação de matéria e espírito. A combinação de material e consciente. Você pode pensar sobre isso dessa maneira se você for mais cênico. Somos matéria consciente.

• 57:58Jordan B. Peterson?

  O que está acontecendo com isso? Ninguém entende isso. Nenhum materialista entende isso. Nós entendemos nada sobre consciência. É tão misterioso agora quanto foi através do nosso entorno inteiro de existência. Nunca foi reduzido a um fenômeno material. Nós não temos ideia do que isso significaria. E se nós o reduzirmos ao material, tudo o que isso significaria era que inadivertidamente elevámos o material. Nós tratamos um ao outro como se fossemos conscientes. Nós presumimos de princípios primeiros de que somos conscientes. Nós nem podemos distinguir entre o ser em si e o ser consciente. E assim, essa é uma representação perfeitamente razoável do homem.

• 58:43Jordan B. Peterson?

  Mulher é tomada do homem, de um peito, de um lado, como igual. Há uma crítica de narrativa judeocristã patriarcal do lado feminista ressentido que faz a afirmação de que a narrativa bíblica é, por exemplo, radicalmente patriarcal em sua orientação. Dúvida das mulheres para a subjugação.

• 59:09Jordan B. Peterson?

  Essa é uma afirmação preposterosa, por acaso. Não é apenas falsa. É falsa de uma maneira muito particular. Há falsidades que são aproximações da verdade.

• 59:21Jordan B. Peterson?

  Há falsidades tão profundas que são o exato oposto da verdade. E a verdade do matter é que, direto das primeiras palavras, a biblioteca bíblica é miraculosa em sua insistência de que mulheres, como homens, são feitas na imagem de Deus. Isso emerge no primeiro capítulo. E que Eve é igual a Adam de todos modos,

• 59:48Jordan B. Peterson?

  embora complementar e não idêntico. E nossa sociedade é arrastada por conflito tão profundo que agora nós duvidamos de ambas dessas proposições. Não há forma de confusão mais profunda que isso.

• 1:00:06Jordan B. Peterson?

  Criaturas sexualmente reproduzidas sem sistemas nervosos podem dizer a diferença entre homem e mulher. Eu estou morto sério sobre isso.

• 1:00:20Jordan B. Peterson?

  Si puedes hacer que la gente se coma la mentira de que no hay diferencia entre hombres y mujeres, no hay mentira que no se coma, ¿verdad?

• 1:00:32Jordan B. Peterson?

  Así que Dios hace a Adam y Eva, cada uno con su propia función,

• 1:00:40Jordan B. Peterson?

  y él los pone en el jardín para jugar siempre bajo el ojo de su padre celestial. Y él les dice que tienen libertad de reino en el jardín, con todo lo alegre que se ha creado, excepto por una cosa: no coman el fruto del árbol del conocimiento de bien y mal.

• 1:01:07Jordan B. Peterson?

  ¿Entonces qué significa eso? Man, eso es un misterio. Pasé mucho tiempo tratando de romper las narrativas micro en la historia de Adam y Eva, y no fue hasta hace tres o cuatro años que creo que empecé a entender ese fragmento en particular de la historia. Un amigo mío está aquí, Jonathan Pageau, algunos de ustedes podrían haberlo estado siguiendo.

• 1:01:35Jordan B. Peterson?

  Jonathan y su hermano Matthew realmente me ayudaron a romper esto. Y así estamos aquí. Estoy aquí con Jonathan y un número de mis otros colegas y amigos ahora mismo con The Daily Wire. Estamos grabando otro seminario. publicamos un seminario sobre Exodis, estamos grabando un seminario sobre los Gópulos ahora mismo. Estamos por el 60% de la ruta de eso. Y así, solo para que ustedes sepan, eso también está a punto de llegar.

• 1:02:02Jordan B. Peterson?

  Dios dice a los seres humanos, él hace una regla fundamental: No coman el fruto del árbol del conocimiento de bien y mal. Está bien, eso es conocimiento moral. Eso debería ser evidente, conocimiento de bien y mal, eso es conocimiento moral.

• 1:02:19Jordan B. Peterson?

  El conocimiento moral está predicado en la idea de que hay un camino hacia arriba y un camino hacia abajo, que hay cosas deseables y que hay cosas deseadas, y que en el pico de lo que es deseable es lo que es celestial o paradiso, y en las profundidades abismales de lo que es deseados es el diabólico y el malvado. Y ese es el paisaje moral, ese es el paisaje de bien y mal. Ese es el paisaje ficticio, ficticio en el sentido de caracterización y trama, ficticio en el sentido de distil de la verdad, no de falsedad, ficticio en el sentido de que la ficción describe la estructura a través de la cual ves el mundo. La ficción tiene la forma más profunda de la verdad.

• 1:03:00Jordan B. Peterson?

  ¿Qué significa comer el fruto del conocimiento de bien y mal?

• 1:03:07Jordan B. Peterson?

  Cuando Nietzsche anunció la muerte de Dios en los últimos años 1800, dijo algo que creía que constituiría un camino hacia adelante. Dijo: "Hemos despedido con Dios, somos los mayores asesinos que hayan vivido. Hemos... ...engajado en un asesinato tan profundo que nunca se va a deshacer el sangre." ¿Cómo podríamos... ¿Cómo podríamos conducirnos en el trasfondo de ese asesinato?" Si lees a Nietzsche como un anti cristiano triunfante, él era una persona muy complicada,

• 1:03:48Jordan B. Peterson?

  y él sabía perfectamente bien que la disolución de la metafísica cristiana produciría una consecuencia cataclísmica. Predijo en los últimos años 1800 que Europa se convertiría en un egualitario comunitario radicalmente resentioso que mataría miles de millones de personas, lo que es exactamente lo que pasó. Y vio eso venir tan claramente como su contraparte rusa, Feodor Dostoevsky, lo vio. Sabía lo que surgiría en el trasfondo de la muerte de Dios. Sabía que el resentimiento y el comunitario serían una tentación.

• 1:04:28Jordan B. Peterson?

  Y trató de formular un camino alternativo. Dijo: "Vamos a tener que crear nuestros propios valores, vamos a tener que tomarlo por nosotros mismos para crear el paisaje moral."

• 1:04:42Jordan B. Peterson?

  Leí eso y entendí por qué dijo eso. Podía ver su influencia en la psicología clínica, por ejemplo, la noción de la persona auto-actualizada, la noción de que nuestra alma debe deslizarse en la dirección que es comensurate con la mejor comprensión de nuestros seres subjetivos, ¿verdad? El desvelamiento radical de la subjetividad, la definición de sí mismo. "Soy lo que digo que soy", lo cual es un afirmación radical en nuestra sociedad ahora. Afirmación de omniscientismo, no solo soy quien digo que soy, "Tú mejor actúa como soy quien digo que soy". Ese es el afirmación del subjetivo radical. Bueno, ¿qué pasa con esa afirmación?

• 1:05:26Jordan B. Peterson?

  Bueno, los psicoanalistas criticaron a Nietzsche muy efectivamente. Dijeron: "Mira, ¿cómo vas a crear tus propios valores cuando no estás mando en tu propia casa? ¿Has intentado decirte qué hacer? ¿Cómo funciona eso para ti? Sé que eres solo tu propio sirviente obediente, ¿verdad? Eres tan moralmente puro, solo te dices en el año nuevo que vas a ir al gimnasio y vas a dieta y vas a ser algún estelar, physique, lindo, mío, máquina de lucha a marzo, y vas una vez y luego te dices mentiras sobre por qué no tienes que ir de nuevo, y ese es el final de eso. Y si eres capaz de crear tus propios valores, no serías

• 1:06:08Jordan B. Peterson?

  el...

• 1:06:11Jordan B. Peterson?

  el anillo, el anillo arrugado que sopla en el viento de sus propios alas." Los psicoanalistas descubrieron esto muy rápidamente. Eres una guerra de alas que compiten. Y una criatura como esa va a tener un momento muy difícil de navegar el paisaje complejo del pronunciamiento moral máximo. ¿Quién eres para tomar una decisión sobre lo que constituye bien y mal? Y eso es lo que Dios dice a los hombres y a las mujeres. Es como si no pudieras crear el orden moral, puedes vivir dentro de él. Puedes alinearte con el orden moral preexistente. No tomes a ti mismo el derecho, la presumptura de definir bien y mal por sí mismo.

• 1:06:55Jordan B. Peterson?

  Te abrazas a ti mismo

• 1:06:59Jordan B. Peterson?

  a bien y te rezas por la liberación del mal. Y si violas eso, mira el maldito. Y ese es el pronunciamiento. ¿Y entonces qué pasa?

• 1:07:15Jordan B. Peterson?

  El serpiente ofrece a Eva el fruto. ¿Por qué el serpiente? Bueno, el serpiente está camuflado,

• 1:07:26Jordan B. Peterson?

  el serpiente es crafty, sutil, el serpiente es

• 1:07:34Jordan B. Peterson?

  marginalizado. El serpiente es la voz de la orgullo. El serpiente es Lucifer. Ese es el entorno metafísico de la historia que desarrolla a través de siglos la noción de que el serpiente en el jardín del paradiso es Lucifer mismo, el espíritu de orgullo. ¿Qué significa eso? Es la presumptura orgullosa la que te hace asumir que puedes definir el orden moral. ¿Cuál es la presumptura orgullosa de Eva en el comienzo del tiempo y siempre? "También puedo clavarme al serpiente en mi cuello". Es el alegre agradecimiento del monstruo y orgulloso

• 1:08:17Jordan B. Peterson?

  bajo la presencia de la compasión maternal.

• 1:08:23Jordan B. Peterson?

  Y si no puedes ver eso suceder en nuestra sociedad, eres ciego. ¿Y cuál es el pecado de Adam?

• 1:08:31Jordan B. Peterson?

  Bueno, ¿qué se preocupa los hombres? Las mujeres se preocupan, correctamente, por

• 1:08:38Jordan B. Peterson?

  el infante inútil.

• 1:08:43Jordan B. Peterson?

  Es una virtud femenina poderosa y puede ser invertida y做得 orgullosa y trompeteada y presumptuosa para infantilizar el mundo y para anunciar esa compasión como una insignia

• 1:08:59Jordan B. Peterson?

  de valor y honor, como un modo de obtener estatus. ¿Cuál es el pecado de Adam? ¿Qué se preocupa los hombres? Impresionar a las mujeres.

• 1:09:11Jordan B. Peterson?

  Los hombres son fundamentemente ambiciosos para impresionar a las mujeres,

• 1:09:16Jordan B. Peterson?

  para mejor o para mal.

• 1:09:19Jordan B. Peterson?

  ¿Cuál es el camino orgulloso y falso para establecer una relación con la demasiado exigente femenina?

• 1:09:32Jordan B. Peterson?

  "Lo tengo, lo que quieras, querido". ¿Verdad? Y ese es el pecado de Adam. Eva alega a la voz del serpiente y la clava en su cuello

• 1:09:46Jordan B. Peterson?

  a pesar de la clara injuncción del divino nunca hacer eso. Y Adam diariamente hace exactamente lo que la peor parte de su esposa quiere. Y así estamos aquí, amigos.

• 1:10:06Jordan B. Peterson?

  So what's the consequence of that? Well, the scales fall from the rise and they notice they're naked.

• 1:10:15Jordan B. Peterson?

  And they're deeply ashamed and they cover up. They become self-conscious. Okay, so when do people become self-conscious?

• 1:10:24Jordan B. Peterson?

  When they make prideful errors. When you overreach and you reveal your inadequacy as a consequence of the mismatch between your pride and your ability. You'll be ashamed. You'll recognize your insufficiency. You'll be aware of yourself as an isolated entity. That's all to become self-conscious. Psychologists have learned over the last 40 years that there's no difference between being conscious of yourself and being miserable. Those are literally the same thing. If you're living a life of other-centered, communally-oriented, hospitable calling,

• 1:11:08Jordan B. Peterson?

  you're not attending to the miseries of your isolated self. If you stay in your bailiwick and you don't put forward your hand presumptuously, you can live in the absence of painful self-consciousness. Pride goes before a fall. We have a month devoted to pride in our culture. Right? Pride goes before a fall. You know this in your own life. You can ask yourself, and this has been a Christian conundrum since the beginning of time. Is your life miserable because misery is baked into the structure of the world?

• 1:11:46Jordan B. Peterson?

  Or is your life miserable because you do stupid things and refuse to learn and bring endless misery on yourself in your presumption? And you know, you might say a little column A and a little column B, and fair enough. But you certainly know that the most painful episodes of your life come when you

• 1:12:05Jordan B. Peterson?

  claim falsely to be more than you are.

• 1:12:09Jordan B. Peterson?

  And the core narrative in the Christian Judeo-Christian ethos is that the fall of man into the profane world is a consequence of pride. And that is really something worth thinking about. You know, Adam and Eve are called upon to work in misery as a consequence of their pride. Well, could you work joyfully? If you didn't overreach yourself, if you were aiming upward properly, if you were telling the truth, if you were acting communally, if you're acting in relationship to what was highest, would it be possible that your work would be joyful and bring abundance? Isn't there times in your life when that's happened? Is it, is it the case that you move forward in misery?

• 1:12:54Jordan B. Peterson?

  In precise proportion to the pretension of your aim?

• 1:13:00Jordan B. Peterson?

  It's worth considering.

• 1:13:04Jordan B. Peterson?

  It's the suspicion that arises at the end of the story that begins history because it's with the prideful fall of Adam and Eve that history begins.

• 1:13:19Jordan B. Peterson?

  Adam and Eve discover they're naked and they hide. And God comes along and says, "Adam, where are you?" And Adam says, "I'm over here. I'm hiding." And God says, "Well, why are you hiding? It's a foolish thing to do," right? Because Adam is perfectly aware that God can see through bushes. Adam is hiding from God. Is it your pathetic self-consciousness that makes you hide from God? That's a good question. Are you not everything you could be because you're ashamed of who you are? That's what that story indicates. And so God calls Adam on. He says, "Who told you? Why are you hiding?" And Adam says, "Well, I'm naked." And God says, "Well,

• 1:14:04Jordan B. Peterson?

  how do you find out that you were naked? How did you find out that you were inadequate? How did you find out that you are shameful?" And Adam says, "You know that woman you made me? It's her fault." And that's the second sin of Adam, and that's another indication of the non-patriarchal nature of the text. You know, Eve is the first human being to take a bite of the apple, but Adam follows along. And it isn't obvious to me that the follower of sin is in a worse, better moral position than the initiator. And then he compounds his sin like men do by blaming the woman. "Why is your life so..." "Well, if you had my wife, man, you'd know."

• 1:14:45Jordan B. Peterson?

  It's like those damn women. It's like, it's a handy excuse for men all the time to say that, and it's not least because men can't tolerate being rejected by women, and women reject them all the time. And the reason women reject them is because they're not all they should be. And so of course that makes men painfully self-conscious and makes them shake their fist at God and makes them hide. And so, what God says, and so Adam reveals himself in this pathetic manner. It's like he can't even take responsibility for his own misstep. He has to blame the thing that's been granted to him as the highest form of gift. And not only her, but God.

• 1:15:27Jordan B. Peterson?

  "Whose fault is it?" "Well, it's not mine. It's probably women's fault. And if it's not women, it's clearly God." "It can't be me."

• 1:15:37Jordan B. Peterson?

  So what happens? Well, both Adam and Eve are condemned to suffer in their work. And that's how history begins. And that's the situation of fallen, of the fallen world. And that's the description of the

• 1:15:55Jordan B. Peterson?

  landscape of

• 1:15:59Jordan B. Peterson?

  profound fiction that we

• 1:16:02Jordan B. Peterson?

  that we inhabit.

• 1:16:04Jordan B. Peterson?

  And that's only a tiny fraction of the characterization of God and man in the biblical corpus.

• 1:16:15Jordan B. Peterson?

  Thank you very much.

• 1:16:29Jordan B. Peterson?

  All right, so

• 1:16:32Jordan B. Peterson?

  we'll welcome Constantine onto the stage. He's gonna...

• 1:16:41Jordan B. Peterson?

  Thank you. Hey, sir.

• 1:16:44Jordan B. Peterson?

  Thank you. That was great, Jordan.

• 1:16:49Jordan B. Peterson?

  Shall we sit? Absolutely.

• 1:16:53Jordan B. Peterson?

  Well, so much to agree on first of all, not least just when you were talking about the founding, foundation of America and how great it is. How could anyone disagree with that? Everyone here has guns.

• 1:17:09Jordan B. Peterson?

  No, but I mean it actually. And one of the things I was thinking that I really agreed on, I don't want to spend too much time on the stuff that I agree on, but I've been, I've had this phrase in my head for a long time now, which is the cultures, the stories we tell ourselves about ourselves. And I thought that was very interesting that you mentioned it, but you brought me here to be a contrarian, so it's his fault, not mine if I offend you. When I offend you.

• 1:17:40Jordan B. Peterson?

  You said, "We're here partly because the Enlightenment doesn't work," is wrong. If the Enlightenment is wrong, why are we sitting in an arena of 6,500 people with bright lights and all of this created through the scientific method and research and all of the stuff that comes out of the Enlightenment? How are we here?

• 1:18:04Jordan B. Peterson?

  I don't think the scientific method is wrong.

• 1:18:08Jordan B. Peterson?

  I think the Enlightenment is wrong. So I don't know how many of you noticed this, but yesterday, the day before, something like that,

• 1:18:20Jordan B. Peterson?

  Richard Dawkins announced that he was a cultural Christian. Most upvoted question for the Q and A. Okay, okay. Well, there we go. Well, because Richard Dawkins, who is a genuine scientist, and I think actually a good man,

• 1:18:36Jordan B. Peterson?

  is feeling in his bones that something is up. And what he said essentially was that even though, and it's paradoxical, right? He said, "Even though I'm happy that formal belief in Christianity in the West is on the decline,

• 1:18:54Jordan B. Peterson?

  I would rather live in a Christian culture than in a religion, than in a culture dominated by any other religion." And so that's kind of a backhanded compliment. And then he said also, he doesn't want the cathedrals to go. He doesn't want the churches to go. He doesn't want Christmas to go. There's a lot of beauty in the culture that he wants to maintain. And so that puts Dr. Dawkins in a difficult position. I don't say this with any delight.

• 1:19:25Jordan B. Peterson?

  If Christianity works in the manner that even makes science possible, which is something that Dr. Dawkins is beginning to understand, what is it about Christianity that works? And how is what works different from what doesn't work? Now, Dr. Dawkins doesn't like to mention this, but one of the things he is doing is contrasting what he believes is the Christian UK with perhaps what the UK might be if it was fundamentalist Islam, for example. And I'm not criticizing Islam when I say that. I'm criticizing more pointedly fundamentalism.

• 1:20:06Jordan B. Peterson?

  And Dr. Dawkins knows that there's something, regardless of what might be wrong with Christianity, let's say, there's something like seriously wrong with that kind of fundamentalism. And that means he's making a hierarchy of moral order. And he's placing what's Christian above what's fundamentalist. So that's part of that reflection of a moral order. And then he's stuck with the problem. He's like, "Well, then what is it about Christianity that makes it right?" Well, we have to get rid of all the...

• 1:20:35Jordan B. Peterson?

  What? The miracles, the magic, the superstition? Well, how do you separate out that from what's hypothetically good? And why do you even think that's possible? There's no evidence that it's possible. Like, perhaps it's possible. We haven't done it since the Enlightenment arose, so I don't think we can.

• 1:20:57Jordan B. Peterson?

  The... so... So there's that problem. The Enlightenment has run to its end because it's fun... There are fundamental propositions that it was predicated on that aren't true. Like what? We don't orient ourselves empirically. We don't orient ourselves rationally. We orient ourselves in the narrative world. And we don't yet really understand what that means. Like, let me give you an example of that, okay? So

• 1:21:29Jordan B. Peterson?

  Carl... Sigmund Freud believed that the reason your dreams were mysterious was because your dreams were delivering to you messages about your desires that you didn't want to become conscious of? And that the dream was symbolizing them to to hide what was repressed, but well, offering it, you might argue, in small doses. And that accounted for the mystery of dreams. Why are dreams so mysterious? Well, Freud's answer was, "Well, because the dream disguises unpleasant truths from the dreamer so that he can maintain his slumber." Carl Jung came along and said, "No."

• 1:22:16Jordan B. Peterson?

  "The dream is the universe within which philosophy situates itself." "You dream about what you do not yet understand." "The dream is the mediator between what is still mysterious, so mysterious you might not even know that it exists, and what you concretely can contend with."

• 1:22:38Jordan B. Peterson?

  Jung's correct. We know not enough now about how the hemispheres of the brain function. We know enough about how the dream functions. We know enough about the relationship between the imagination and our ability to speak to say that what we understand is nested in a dream. The dream is mysterious. The dream isn't the same world as the graspable, describable world. Christianity is the dream within which the West is embedded. And there are elements of it that we can't understand, partly because we have to situate ourselves in relationship to what's ultimately mysterious. And that means that the dream

• 1:23:21Jordan B. Peterson?

  shades into the miraculous and mysterious. And there's no way around that because we need that buffer, at least because we need that buffer. It's also because things that are true that we cannot understand from our current frame of reference appear as miraculous within that frame of reference. Now, that doesn't mean I know how to contend we're doing this gospel seminar now. I don't know how to contend with the plethora of miraculous healing stories. I don't know how to contend with the story of the quelling of the waves on the Sea of Galilee. But...

• 1:24:01Jordan B. Peterson?

  But I know that we live in a story. And I know that the story mediates between the finite and the infinite. And I know that we can't dispense with the story, not without opening ourselves up to invasion by any number of catastrophic, competing stories. And that is what's happening in the West, as far as I'm concerned. Not least the story of power, or the story of hedonism, or the story of paganism, the story of nature worship. We moved very quickly from worship of the transcendent spirit beyond nature to worship of nature itself. That's what the environmentalist movement is. And you know this. The Irish want to sacrifice 200,000 cows

• 1:24:47Jordan B. Peterson?

  to change the weather.

• 1:24:50Jordan B. Peterson?

  Right? Right, and that's a reemergence. That is truly a reemergence of that pagan spirituality, and a whole different aim. We put nature above all else. Well, where do we put man? What's our birth rate? Way below replacement. We know where we put man. There's too many of us

• 1:25:12Jordan B. Peterson?

  in relationship to what? Nature.

• 1:25:16Jordan B. Peterson?

  So

• 1:25:18Jordan B. Peterson?

  how is the Enlightenment wrong?

• 1:25:22Jordan B. Peterson?

  Well, man does not live by bread alone. You know? The technological enterprise offers material abundance and more power to it, but

• 1:25:35Jordan B. Peterson?

  as an end in itself, as a moral ethos in itself, it's unsustainable. It produces nothing but towers of babel. And

• 1:25:45Jordan B. Peterson?

  it produces people who can't master their own tools. And we're in that situation.

• 1:25:58Jordan B. Peterson?

  Do you think it's possible that it's the material abundance that's the problem?

• 1:26:03Jordan B. Peterson?

  I wouldn't say it's "the" problem. The cause of the problem. No, I don't think so. I think it's a fundamental symptom. Let me tell you a story. This is very cool. This took me 40 years to figure out. And I can tell you in three minutes, so that's a good deal for you.

• 1:26:24Jordan B. Peterson?

  You remember, I liked the movie Pinocchio a lot. I've talked about it a lot. I would do a whole series on Pinocchio if Disney hadn't crookedly reestablished copyright control over it by bribing public officials.

• 1:26:38Jordan B. Peterson?

  You remember something? There's a variety of very strange things happen in Pinocchio. But one of the strangest is that Geppetto ends up in a whale. And that's never explained. It's like, Geppetto makes Pinocchio. He's the benevolent father. And Pinocchio leaves, and Geppetto goes and looks for him. And, fair enough. And then he ends up in a whale at the bottom of the ocean. And no one just walks out of the theater thinking, you know, "What the hell? What's going on here?" They think, "Oh, yeah, well, of course he's in a whale." And then, of course, Pinocchio goes to the bottom of the abyss, like Jonah,

• 1:27:15Jordan B. Peterson?

  to find his father, who's living in a gigantic carcass.

• 1:27:22Jordan B. Peterson?

  Right?

• 1:27:25Jordan B. Peterson?

  There's an ancient story the Mesopotamians told called the Anuma Elish. And in the Anuma Elish, the world is constituted by Tiamat, who's a feminine dragon. From her name, Tiamat, comes Tohu, Vabohu, and Tehom, that possibility that God makes order out of at the beginning of time. She's the feminine dragon that represents

• 1:27:51Jordan B. Peterson?

  nature and possibility. And she has a husband, Apssu, who's the patriarchy. Matriarchy and patriarchy, yin and yang. It's the age-old story.

• 1:28:01Jordan B. Peterson?

  They unite and they give rise to the first world. The deities of the first world start pursuing their own aims, and they get noisy and prideful.

• 1:28:15Jordan B. Peterson?

  They kill Apssu, and they live on his corpse.

• 1:28:20Jordan B. Peterson?

  That's what we're doing. Geppetto is in the corpse of a carcass. Why? Wealth is a carcass. Wealth is a storehouse of value. Wealth can be traded for food. The past is the carcass of a whale. Harvard is a whale carcass. Harvard is a whale carcass inhabited by unconscious people who are living on the storehouse of past value. Right? Right, absolutely. Without replenishing it, right? It's the parasite problem fundamentally. And it is a problem with wealth because the problem with wealth is like, this is the problem Abraham has. Abraham has wealthy father,

• 1:29:05Jordan B. Peterson?

  and he doesn't launch his life till he's 70. And the reason for that is because he doesn't have to. He can exist unconsciously in the carcass of his ancestors. Right? That's what we're doing in the West. And we've been building these storehouses of value since World War II. We're so rich, and now we have the pathologies of the wealthy. And one of the pathologies of the wealthy is prideful ingratitude. And that's what the universities specialize in. That's what they train their students to have. You know? Prideful presumption. And the universities opened the door to the non-productive scavengers starting in the 1960s. And

• 1:29:51Jordan B. Peterson?

  they took over over a 40-year period. I watched it happen. And much of what's happening downstream is a consequence of that. And this is an age-old story, like the Mesopotamian story. That's the oldest story we have. It's like 3,500 years old, something like that. And in its oral form, way older. People knew a long time ago that if you are stupid enough to kill the spirit of your fathers, you die. What happens in the Mesopotamian story is that Tiamat, whose chaos itself, comes back, just like God in the story of Noah. It's exactly the same idea. She comes back and says, "I'm gonna take you all out."

• 1:30:33Jordan B. Peterson?

  Well, you brought me here to disagree with you, and I'm struggling here because I agree with everything you're saying. I'm tricky that way. Well, it's just, it's much easier to see as an outsider, like me, having come from the Soviet Union, to see a civilization essentially forgetting how it got there. I feel like we're in a we're kind of a cargo cult, in a way. Right. But the obvious question then is, how do you put the toothpaste back in the tube? Which I think is where we are. Now, you're here talking about Christianity being the dream in which we're all embedded. But there is what I call the generation of Dawkins, the children of Dawkins is what I call my generation. And that conversation became fundamental.

• 1:31:19Jordan B. Peterson?

  About one thing, I think, which is, are the metaphors that you laid out so beautifully true? That's what that discussion is about, and it's very difficult to convince people like me. You know, if you have to believe that my suit is red in order for everything to turn out correct, you still weren't, because it's not red, right? Does that make sense? Of course, of course, of course. Okay, so you had two, you had two questions, so I'll address them in order. Okay, so I'm going to tell you the rest of the Mesopotamian myth. Okay. It's a key, so you know what happens in the Pinocchio story, right? Pinocchio, by the time Pinocchio gets to rescue his father, he's a braying jackass

• 1:32:04Jordan B. Peterson?

  who is enticed into slavery by hedonists. And also by neurotic hedonists, because if you remember the story, the reason he ends up on Pleasure Island is because the criminals convince him that he's too sick and neurotic and victimized to become real. So then he goes to Pleasure Island with all the delinquents, and they throw rocks through the masterpieces of Western civilization, and they turn into braying drunken donkeys while the slavers prepare to sell them to the coal mines. And Pinocchio escapes with some of his voice intact, and he goes to the bottom of the ocean to rescue Geppetto.

• 1:32:46Jordan B. Peterson?

  Okay, so that's the first part of the cure. You go into the depths to find your lost father, into the depths. Now, what's in the depths for Pinocchio? A fire-breathing dragon, right? You remember the whale has fire in it, and when it comes up to the surface, it breathes fire. It's a dragon, it's the dragon that has the treasure. The treasure is not only the father who's rescued, but the discovery of the true pathway that restores Pinocchio, restores his voice, restores the true voice to Pinocchio, and transforms him into what he could be. And that's the courage to confront

• 1:33:29Jordan B. Peterson?

  the unconscious abyss. And that's what the psychoanalysts were calling for, especially Jung, is the courage to confront the unconscious abyss. Auschwitz, the darkness itself, and that's the pathway to the light. There's no difference between that and the idea of the crucifixion. The ultimate confrontation with death and mortality and malevolence and the revelation of eternal life in consequence. The Mesopotamians, Tiamat reemerges, the dragon of chaos, to destroy everything, because the ungrateful inhabitants of her husband's corpse have enraged the structure of being so profoundly

• 1:34:13Jordan B. Peterson?

  that devastation is the most likely outcome. The inhabitants of Absu panic and marshal their forces to confront chaos. They send out one hero after another, and they all fail. While that's happening, new beings are born, and one of them is qualitatively different. This is the birth of the hero. This is the god of Mesopotamia, whose name was Marduk. Marduk has eyes all the way around his head, and he speaks magic words. That's the logos in nascent form, magic words, words of truth, words of truth.

• 1:34:58Jordan B. Peterson?

  And the eyes are the same as the eye of Horus, the Egyptian eye that sees everything. What's the antidote to unconsciousness? Pay attention. What do you pay attention to? Everything you don't want to pay attention to. So Marduk goes out, Marduk tells all the other inhabitants of the dead corpse, he says, "Look, I'll go out and I'll attend to and deal with chaos." Tiamat. The chaos you brought upon yourself with your unconscious presumption. But here's the deal. I'm at the pinnacle. This is the emergence of a kind of monotheism. What's at the pinnacle? Magic truth and vision. The Mesopotamians figured that out.

• 1:35:43Jordan B. Peterson?

  So how is that concretized? The magic words of truth and the vision that enables you to forthrightly confront chaos and malevolence itself, the darkest elements of possibility, and to make the orderly world as a consequence. And that's exactly what Marduk does. He goes out with a net. He encloses chaos in the net. That's understanding as a consequence of confrontation. He cuts her into pieces, and he makes the world. And that's the eternal medication for the death of God.

• 1:36:26Jordan B. Peterson?

  It's happened, Merche Elia had mapped this out in his magisterial works on the history of religion. We think the death of God has happened in 1850. It's happened many times, repeatedly. It's the same pattern all the time, which is why the Mesopotamians had it nailed like thousands of years ago, and the medicine is always the same. Here's another example. In Numbers, Moses is leading the lost Israelites through the desert. They're a long ways on their journey by this time, they're almost at the promised land. They've been wandering around lost for a long time. And they're still pining for the tyranny and whining and irresponsible, they're still

• 1:37:09Jordan B. Peterson?

  slavish, they still wish they had a king. They are whiny and terrible, and they run out of water, and they're not really listening to Moses, but they're starting to die of thirst and and worse. And they're complaining about this bitterly, and God has had enough of them by this time, and he sends poisonous snakes in to bite them. And the meaning of that story is that you might be lost, and things are miserable, and you're irresponsible, and you think it's pretty dismal, and that you get to shake your fist at God, but if you keep being stupid, worse things will happen to you without end. And so God sends some poisonous snakes, and so the Israelites, that's enough for them.

• 1:37:54Jordan B. Peterson?

  The thirst and the lostness is enough, the snakes are too much. They go to Moses with some degree of humility, and they say, "Do you want to ask, we hear you've got a pipeline to God, do you want to ask him to call off the snakes?" And Moses says, "I'm not very happy with you people, and I'd just as soon leave you, like, die and be poisoned in the desert, but I'll see what I can do." So he goes and has a chat with God. And God says, "Yeah, I don't think I'll call off the snakes. But what I'll do instead is, I'm going to ask you to do something. I want you to cast a bronze serpent. Take all the bronze that you have and make a serpent out of it, and put it on a stake,

• 1:38:35Jordan B. Peterson?

  and like, make a statue out of it, and put it somewhere where the Israelites can all see it, and if they go and actually look at it, then they'll be immune from the poison." Okay. So that symbol, that stake with a snake around it, that's the same symbol that Asclepius, who's the Greek god of healing, that's the same symbol that represents Asclepius. It's the same symbol that your physicians use to signify their operation. And there's a principle there, which is that a little poison voluntarily incorporated will increase your resilience.

• 1:39:19Jordan B. Peterson?

  That's what a vaccine does when liars haven't made them. So so the Israelites go look at the snake on the bronze staff, which is also Moses' staff, by the way, which is also the staff that transforms itself into serpents, and that transforms itself into the serpent that eats all the serpents of the Pharaoh's magicians. All of that's symbolically locked together. And what's the idea? Confront what you're terrified by that poisons you and prevail.

• 1:40:02Jordan B. Peterson?

  In the Gospels, Christ says to his followers that unless he's lifted up like the serpent in the desert, that men will be redeemed if he is lifted up like the serpent in the desert. That's what Christianity was. And so, so this is a way of thinking about it. The serpent on the stake is a symbol of what's dangerous and poisonous. And what's dangerous and poisonous is an example of the danger and poison of life. The danger of life is the brute reality of mortality, our vulnerability, our naked vulnerability, and the poison is malevolence.

• 1:40:46Jordan B. Peterson?

  And so a serpent is threat and poison. You're to confront threat and poison. The crucifix is a meta serpent. It's everything about life that's catastrophic and everything about life that's poisonous in one symbol. And the West realized in this dreamlike fashion that we're to look upon that, we're to imitate the pattern of that confrontation, which is a sacrificial pattern, and we're to regard that as the center of the community, which is why the cross is at the center of

• 1:41:29Jordan B. Peterson?

  the church, and the church is at the center of the town, and the town is at the center of the state. It's all predicated on the idea of the ultimate sacrificial offering of voluntary acceptance of the mortal and poisonous preconditions of life, right? And that's the cure. That's the cure, and that's always been the case, right? So I want to bring a couple of audience questions in while we have time, and actually on this very point about Richard Dawkins and whether cultural Christianity

• 1:42:08Speaker 07

  ...quote-unquote can be the solution.

• 1:42:14Speaker 07

  Can it? Can you have practice with our belief?

• 1:42:19Jordan B. Peterson?

  We were at, Konstantin and I were in a conference in London, the Alliance for Responsible Citizenship, ARC, which we put together as

• 1:42:31Jordan B. Peterson?

  a distributed responsibility alternative to the global internationalists, the doomsaying prophets of the future, who offer tyranny as a offering to the gods of nature and as false security. And Ayaan Hirsi Ali came to the conference and she spoke very eloquently about her recent conversion to Christianity from Islam, which has made her a marked woman yet again. She's a very brave woman, Ayaan Hirsi Ali. And she said, "A flower can live for a time when you cut it off from its roots, but only for a time. We're living on borrowed time. It's the same idea with regard to the corpse,

• 1:43:15Jordan B. Peterson?

  let's say, of Apso or the whale carcass. There's a spirit that gives rise to that plenitude, right? And it is something like the spirit of communal self-sacrifice. It's something like that." Now,

• 1:43:29Jordan B. Peterson?

  okay, so that's one story. Now Douglas Murray said something interesting to me too that was very surprising because Murray has come to the cultural Christian conclusion, despite also being a follower of Dawkins, like Ayaan was. He said, "I realized something. If you take the magic and the miracles away, Christianity degenerates into woke-ism." And so now, it's not like I understand that. I'm not claiming that. But it has something to do with this issue of the dream. It's like the narrative of our culture has to mediate between us and the infinite. And that means it has to shade into the miraculous. Now, you might say, "Well, what does that mean in reality?

• 1:44:14Jordan B. Peterson?

  Is that just a metaphor?" Which is kind of the question you asked earlier. "Your suit isn't red, it's green. And how can we predicate our culture on a lie?" Well, I hashed this out with Jonathan Pagé and he said something which I thought was brilliant. He said, "Look,

• 1:44:32Jordan B. Peterson?

  if the pattern that you're identifying is that deep

• 1:44:38Jordan B. Peterson?

  and it's crucial to the maintenance of the integration of the psyche and of culture itself,

• 1:44:46Jordan B. Peterson?

  how can it not actually be reflective of the structure of reality itself?" And, you know, I've

• 1:44:55Jordan B. Peterson?

  had a proclivity to view the

• 1:44:59Jordan B. Peterson?

  mythological stories, let's say, as symbolic. And that's a valid reading. But the question that Pagé posed is a very trenchant question. It's like,

• 1:45:12Jordan B. Peterson?

  at what point is something so highly functional and universally applicable that you have to allow that even though you don't understand it, it's reflective of the deepest

• 1:45:24Jordan B. Peterson?

  structure of reality itself? And I'll put a twist on that.

• 1:45:30Jordan B. Peterson?

  I tried to get Richard Dawkins to talk to me for a couple of years. Now, he eventually did and we're going to talk again publicly. I hope, we're arranging that at the moment. The first thing he said, he's a very disagreeable guy, like very educated Englishmen. Those are dangerous people, man. They'll cut you into ribbons politely and be quite gleeful about it. And they're very good at it. Better than anyone else in the world, I would say. And he, first of all, he said, "I don't think I'd have enough patience to talk to you. You've said a lot of preposterous things. And I don't know why the hell you want to talk to me anyways. But maybe it has something to do with this." And he sent me a paper that he wrote like 30 years ago. And I thought, "You know exactly why I want to talk to you." So he sent me this paper

• 1:46:16Jordan B. Peterson?

  where he made the claim that, and it was a paper I had read and that it actually had some influence on me, that a living organism has to be a microcosm of its environment. So what that means, for example, imagine an alien scientist came to Earth and took a bird up to its lab and took the bird apart. Well, what could it learn about the Earth? Well, it could learn the the chemical makeup of the atmosphere by studying the bird's blood. It could derive a tremendous amount of knowledge about the whole history of life on Earth by analyzing the DNA. It could infer the density of the atmosphere by the ratio of the area of the bird's wings to the mass of the bird.

• 1:47:01Jordan B. Peterson?

  It would know something about the temperature that the Earth, that characterizes the Earth and could infer something about the Sun. It would be able to derive

• 1:47:13Jordan B. Peterson?

  knowledge of the gravitational field. The bird is a model of its environment. And Dawkins went further. He said, "No animal that isn't a model of its environment can survive. We're a microcosm. A creature is a microcosm of its environment." That's a medieval conception of the relationship between man and God. It's like, we're a microcosm of the cosmic structure. And at the highest level of organization, the highest level of human organization, we're a personality. Do we live in relationship to the spirit of the cosmos? That's the biblical claim. I think it's correct. I think reality itself is founded on sacrifice. Do I know what that means? Not completely. I do understand what it means

• 1:47:56Jordan B. Peterson?

  that the integrated psyche and the community are founded on sacrifice. I think I can make that argument completely coherently. When you mature, you give up your hedonistic, short-term whim for the future. That's the sacrifice. When you become communal, you give up your self-centeredness for others. And so the community and this integrity of the spirit are predicated on complex sacrifice. What does that mean about reality? The answer to that is, it depends on what you mean by reality.

• 1:48:31Jordan B. Peterson?

  Right? See, most people who say, "Is the religious worldview true?" Assume axiomatically that the rationalist, empiricist, materialist worldview is true. See, I don't think it's true. I think you can't help but bring the nature of reality itself into question when you ask that question. This is why I don't like people asking me if I believe in God. It's like, not on your terms. We don't mean the same thing. I mean something in my belief, such as it is, that's radically different. So there's no difference between asking the question, "Is the religious real?" and asking the question,

• 1:49:14Jordan B. Peterson?

  "Well, what do you mean by a reality that's not religious?"

• 1:49:20Jordan B. Peterson?

  So they're equally mysterious. And I would say, a reality that's not religious can't maintain itself. It can't. It's missing something crucial. It's missing meaning. That's a problem. It's like, not only is it our problem, it's possible that it's the problem. This is why Christ says you can't live by bread alone. And that's part of the problem with the technological enlightenment. It's like, here's all the bread you need. Yeah? For what? What? For what? To pursue my hedonistic whim? Like, for what? This is a crucial question. People in abundance will commit suicide without an answer to that question. Right? So the technological enterprise is insufficient. That doesn't mean it's unnecessary or unworthy.

• 1:50:05Jordan B. Peterson?

  It just means that it has to be put in its proper place and its proper position in the hierarchy. That's how it looks to me.

• 1:50:12Speaker 07

  I have so many questions.

• 1:50:17Speaker 07

  But we'll have to save them for next time because we're together for a few shows. I want to ask you, we've been wrestling some very difficult questions tonight. I want to finish maybe with the most difficult one. This is from Jonas, who says, "My wife and I took your personality test. I'm 0.1% neuroticism. She's 99%. Any advice on navigating this difference in personality?"

• 1:50:44Jordan B. Peterson?

  Well, the first thing I would say as a clinician is that...

• 1:50:52Jordan B. Peterson?

  I would find out if your wife is suffering from an anxiety disorder or depression. Like, I would first of all find out if there's something physical that's troubling her, because that's a high enough level. So neuroticism is sensitivity to negative emotion, right? There's five cardinal personality dimensions. Sensitivity to positive emotion, that's extraversion. Sensitivity to negative emotion, that's neuroticism. Agreeableness, which is really a maternal care dimension. It's people orientation rather than thing orientation as well. Agreeable people are empathetic and compassionate, and disagreeable people are blunt and competitive. And there's quite a sex difference there, by the way.

• 1:51:37Jordan B. Peterson?

  Conscientiousness is dutifulness and orderliness and industriousness. And openness is breadth of idea and aesthetic interest. It's creativity. That's a good way of thinking about it. If you're at the 99th percentile for neuroticism, you're more sensitive to negative emotion than 99 people out of 100. That's sensitive enough to raise the question, are you depressed? Or do you have an anxiety disorder? And that raises the question, first is, are you ill in some way? Because people suffer from depression and anxiety for all sorts of reasons.

• 1:52:21Jordan B. Peterson?

  And some of them are linked to behavior and attitude, but a lot of them are linked to physical health. And so, especially if your wife has a proclivity for depression, which means she becomes hopeless, that's the absence of positive emotion, she suffers a surfeit of pain and anxiety, you might want to see if something can be done about that. If it's merely a matter of variability and temperament, I would say, the way that you help people who are very sensitive to negative emotion become more resilient is

• 1:53:02Jordan B. Peterson?

  to help them establish an aim, because that stabilizes them, so she could do my future authoring program, that's selfauthoring.com, that helps people establish an aim. And then, once she decides her aim, there will be things that get in her way, that she's afraid of, that'll be the negative emotion. And you want to work out routines to have her practice exposing herself to the things she's afraid of. That's what you do too, if you have a timid child. You know, so maybe you take a timid child to the playground, and they want to hover around your feet, because they're afraid to go make friends. You say, "Well, look, kid, today we'll just go to the playground and you can watch the

• 1:53:47Jordan B. Peterson?

  other kids. Tomorrow, we'll go to the playground and you can sit on that bench over there, and I'll sit over here 20 feet away, and you can just watch from there." And the day after that, you can do this progressively, you go and stand near the kids. And the day after that, you go say hello to one kid. You know, and you, with someone who's very sensitive to negative emotion, you can find the border of their fear. And then you want them to put, you want them to put themselves voluntarily on the border of their fear, until they're habituated, until they understand that nothing terrible is going to happen, and then you want them to take a step forward.

• 1:54:32Jordan B. Peterson?

  And if you do that carefully, you can take anyone who's very afraid of virtually anything, and you can make them more robust. And it's, it's the clinical application of the Marduk principle fundamentally, is find out what the person's afraid of, break it into manageable challenges, expose them to the manageable challenge one, so you could ask your wife, "Is there something that you'd really want to do, that you're afraid of doing and haven't done because of the fear?" You know, list 10 things like that. Okay? Now list them in order of fear, with number one being the thing I'm most afraid of, and number 10 being the thing I'm least afraid of.

• 1:55:14Jordan B. Peterson?

  Okay, now take number 10, and break that into steps, and then have her take the steps. And just do that as a routine, as a practice. This is what you can do too, like in your own life, if you're afraid of things, it's like, well, cut the thing you're afraid of down to size, how much do you cut it down? Until you're willing to advance. That's the rule, you just break it down until you'll do it. Wherever that is, no matter how pathetic that is, let's say, you have to accept that. And if you do that, you'll face it, you'll master it, and then you can take on the next task. And people get, it's exactly what God tells the Israelites to do in the deserts, like

• 1:55:57Jordan B. Peterson?

  you look at what frightens you and throws you into chaos. You look at it voluntarily. Every school of clinical therapeutic endeavor, since the dawn of the 20th century, has converged on the understanding that voluntary exposure to what stops you as you move forward is curative. So you can use that as a treatment for negative emotion. It's well documented among timid children. This is why it's so dangerous to have an overprotective parent, because the overprotective parent stops the child from transforming. You have to say, "Out to the edge there, kid." You know, "And I can only get within five feet, it's okay, five feet's good.

• 1:56:42Jordan B. Peterson?

  Get four and a half feet away then. Get three feet away, right? Dance on the edge of the abyss." And that's a terrible thing for a mother to tell her child to do, but all the good mothers do that, even with their terrified children. It's even more important for them. You know, and there's a kind of harshness about that, but it's a harshness that prepares them to not die when they leave. So, so that's the answer to that question.

• 1:57:12Speaker 07

  There you go, I thought that was going to be a lighthearted question. Jordan, what a pleasure it's been tonight. I just thought I would maybe emphasize one thing that you said before we go, before we bring Kelly's heroes back on to send us off with a bang, which is, we've had this conversation about religion and God and so on, but actually, I think irrespective of where people are on those issues, two of the most powerful things that I thought you said tonight was a reminder that, A, perception is projection. What we see is a function of what we project into the world, what we expect to see. And the second one is, we wake up every day with the opportunity to reorder the world. And I thought that's a very powerful couple of things to take away.

• 1:57:57Jordan B. Peterson?

  Thank you, sir. Good to have you aboard, man.

• 1:58:00Speaker 07

  Thank you.

• 1:58:01Jordan B. Peterson?

  All right, everyone. Thank you very much. It's a pleasure talking to you all. Much appreciated. I love your city, by the way. Good work. Yep. All right, so we'll bring the band back on, and they'll take you out rockin'. Good night, everybody.

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