Steve Magness on Doing Hard Things and Why We Get Resilience Wrong | All Great Stories Have One Thing In Common

Ryan reads today’s daily meditation and talks to Steve Magness about his new book Do Hard Things: Why We Get Resilience Wrong and the Surprising Science of Real Toughness, how to lead people effectively, embracing the long game instead of quitting, and more. Steve Magness is a world-renowned expert on performance, coauthor of Peak Performance and The Passion Paradox. Collectively his books have sold more than a quarter-million copies in print, ebook, and audio formats. His writing has appeared in Forbes, Sports Illustrated, Men's Health, and a variety of other outlets. Steve's expertise on elite sport and performance has been featured in The New Yorker, Wall Street Journal, The New York Times, and ESPN The Magazine. To learn more about the pre-order bonuses and pre-order your signed or unsigned copies of The Girl Who Would Be Free, head over to dailystoic.com/girlBlinkist takes top nonfiction titles, pulls out the key takeaways and puts them into text and audio explainers called Blinks that give you the most important information in just 15 minutes. Go to Blinkist.com/STOIC to start your free 7 day trial and get 25% off of a Blinkist Premium membership. Ten Thousand makes the highest quality, best-fitting, and most comfortable training shorts I have ever worn. Ten Thousand is offering our listeners 15% off your purchase. go to Tenthousand.cc/stoic to receive 15% off your purchase. InsideTracker provides you with a personalized plan to improve your metabolism, reduce stress, improve sleep, and optimize your health for the long haul. For a limited time, get 20% off the entire InsideTracker store. Just go to insidetracker.com/STOIC to claim this deal. Bambee is an HR platform built for businesses like yours –– so you can automate the most important HR practices AND get your own dedicated HR Manager. Go to Bambee.com/stoic right now for your FREE HR audit.✉️ Sign up for the Daily Stoic email: https://dailystoic.com/dailyemail🏛Check out the Daily Stoic Store for Stoic inspired products, signed books, and more.📱Follow us: Instagram, Twitter, YouTube, TikTok, FacebookSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:03Ryan Holiday?

  Welcome to the Daily Stoic Podcast, where each weekday, we bring you a meditation inspired by the ancient Stoics, a short passage of ancient wisdom designed to help you find strength and insight here in everyday life. And on Wednesdays, we talk to some of our fellow students of ancient philosophy, well-known and obscure, fascinating and powerful. With them, we discuss the strategies and habits that have helped them become who they are, and also to find peace and wisdom in their actual lives. But first, we've got a quick message from one of our sponsors.

• 0:42Ryan Holiday?

  The Stoics talk, of course, about self-improvement a lot. That is the purpose of philosophy in many ways, is to get better each and every day. And I think the Stoics were pretty unanimous in their belief that reading is a way to do that. And that's why I love today's sponsor, Blinkist. Blinkist is a way to get better, smarter, and to do it faster in 2022. Blinkist has takeaways from some of the best books on the topic of self-improvement, books that were written by friends of mine that I've recommended many times. Mark Manson's The Subtle Art of Not Giving a Fuck, James Clear's Atomic Habits, Tim Ferriss's The Four-Hour Body, and more. They also, of course, have my books as well. When I read a book, what I'm really looking for is like, one nugget, one insight, one thing I can take away. And

• 1:26Ryan Holiday?

  if you don't have time to read as much as I do, Blinkist is a great way to just get that, these sort of 15-minute summaries of these books, interviews with the authors, where they really go in-depth, at the core, the crux of what the author is trying to say. Now, I don't think that's enough. I think you should also go read the book. But Blinkist is a great way to tackle reading in 2022, to read more, to read faster. One of the things I do when I tackle a really big, complicated book is I want to read a review, listen to a summary, read the Wikipedia page, so that when I actually do get the book, I know what I'm looking for, and I've got a base of knowledge to start with. Right now, Blinkist has a special offer just for our audience. Go to blinkist.com/stoic to

• 2:09Ryan Holiday?

  start your free seven-day trial, and you can get a 25% off Blinkist Premium membership. That's Blinkist, B-L-I-N-K-I-S-T, blinkist.com/stoic to get 25% off a free seven-day trial. Blinkist.com/stoic.

• 2:30Ryan Holiday?

  All great stories have one thing in common. Nobody would choose to be prevented from getting what they want. But think about all the great stories. The Odyssey, Moby Dick, Star Wars, Huckleberry Finn, Where the Wild Things Are, The Wizard of Oz. They all have one thing in common. A character wants something and the world tries to prevent them from getting it. And it's the tension here. What the character wants and everything that prevents them from getting what they want that drives the story, that keeps hold of an audience's attention and ultimately teaches the timeless lessons embedded in great stories. And this is why the Stoics loved reading fiction, why they loved theater.

• 3:14Ryan Holiday?

  They loved quoting plays and referencing successful and tragic heroes, real or fantastical. Because stories teach, stories inspire. Stories, as Marcus Aurelius wrote, remind us of what can happen and that it happens inevitably. And if something gives you that pleasure on the stage, it shouldn't cause you anger on this one. They remind us that life without tests and challenges is a life without growth or improvement. And they remind us that the obstacle is the way, that adversity is an opportunity, and that it sometimes is a good thing to be prevented from getting what you want. Take the story of Epictetus. As we recently talked about, Epictetus was born into circumstances filled with forces

• 3:57Ryan Holiday?

  working against the most primary of human desires: freedom. Epictetus was the child of a slave woman, then the purchased property of a violent master, then the subject of a brutal law that made it impossible for slaves to be freed before their 30th birthday. Fate tested Epictetus with one blockade after another. But in having to struggle with this, Epictetus managed to discover a new and deeper and more profound kind of freedom: the empire that rests between our ears, inside our souls, within our bodies. And it has been this example that has inspired millions, including Marcus Aurelius, in the years since. Well, it's also what I'm talking about in the new story I've been working on,

• 4:39Ryan Holiday?

  The Girl Who Would Be Free. It's this illustrated fable of Epictetus's life. I've been asked by so many people after The Boy Who Would Be King, if there was a version of Stoicism that they could teach their daughters. I think Stoicism is universal. Musonius Rufus, Epictetus's teacher, would say that gender has nothing to do with virtue. But I do get the idea of representation. And that's why I decided to build this story around Epictetus as a young girl. What did she need to learn? How did this happen? Who taught her? What can her experiences teach us? And these are timeless questions. I think questions best delivered in the form of a story, in a fable. That's why I wrote the book. I illustrated it with my friend Victor Yuhas, who did The Boy Who Would Be King.

• 5:24Ryan Holiday?

  And it's now available for preorder. We produced it here in the US, printed it here in the US. It's been its own set of obstacles. It took about six months longer than we wanted because of this global printer shortage. But if you preorder The Girl Who Would Be Free now through the Daily Stoic store, before July 8th, you can get the audiobook and the ebook for free. You can also get The Boy Who Would Be King for 50% off. And if you order a signed copy of The Girl Who Would Be Free, you can get The Boy Who Would Be King for free. I'd really love for you to check it out. You can go to dailystoic.com/girl to check it out. Can't wait to see what you think. I'm really proud of this one. And I can't wait for you to share it with your family,

• 6:05Ryan Holiday?

  with anyone that you think might benefit from Epictetus's incredible, incredible journey.

• 6:14Ryan Holiday?

  I am a big fan of today's guest. I really enjoyed his first book, Peak Performance, which I sell here at The Painted Ports. It's how much I like it. He followed that up with a book called The Passion Paradox, which is actually really similar to, which explored some of the ideas that I was exploring in Ego is the Enemy. I have a chapter on not being passionate. Of course, we think passion is really important, but it's in fact kind of a volatile fuel, as the Stoics would say. And you have to get it under control, or it will explode all over you. And his new book... Do Hard Things is one I was very excited to read and I wanted to have Steve Magness on

• 6:59Ryan Holiday?

  the podcast because in addition to being an author whose books have more than 250,000 copies in print, Steve's also the world renowned performance expert and as it happens, a whistleblower in the world of sports. He took down an abusive and problematic coach in the Nike running world, which we get into in today's episode. And I think this is something that is important when we think about philosophy, that if it doesn't inform and shape our own behavior, the ideas we study, the things we talk about, what good is it? And I think Steve

• 7:42Ryan Holiday?

  is an interesting example then of someone who not just talks to talk, but walks the walk and did so as we talk about in today's episode, in a costly way. It was not an easy experience. It was not an experience that was particularly rewarding, at least as far as recognition or appreciation. He says that you wouldn't have traded it for anything, but it's a reminder, as the Stoics say, that you may do the right thing and not get what they call the third thing, the recognition or appreciation or respect, at least immediately. And these are all some of the awesome topics that we talk about in today's episode. You can see Steve's writing everywhere from Forbes to Sports Illustrated, Men's Health, and a variety of other outlets. He's been featured in The New Yorker, The Wall Street Journal,

• 8:27Ryan Holiday?

  The New York Times, and ESPN The Magazine. You can go to his website, it's stevemagnus.com. You can follow him on Instagram, @stevemagnus. And you can check out his new book, Do Hard Things, Why We Get Resilience Wrong and the Surprising Science of Real Toughness. I think this is an important bit of color and insight into what the Stoics talk about. It does remind me of a related book that I carry here at the painted porch called That One Should Disdain Hardships by Musonius Rufus. He's not saying, I don't do hardships. He's saying Exactly what Steve is saying, do hard things. So check out Steve's new book, which has a cover blurb from Malcolm Gladwell, which are not easy to get. As Malcolm Gladwell

• 9:10Ryan Holiday?

  says, "The do hard things, Steve Magness beautifully and persuasively reimagine our understanding of toughness. This is a must read for parents and coaches and anyone else looking to prepare for life's biggest challenges." I love that. Enjoy. Thanks to Steve for coming on the podcast.

• 9:26Ryan Holiday?

  All right, man. Well, I love the book. Thank you for sending it to me. Well, thanks a lot. That's great to hear. Yeah, yeah, I've loved your other stuff, too. All right. So here's where I wanted to start because I think there is a Stoicism connection to do hard things, which maybe, maybe people wouldn't see. One of my favorite lines from Seneca, Seneca says, "How do you know that you're making progress as you study the philosophy?" He says, "I know I'm making progress because I'm a better friend to myself." And so when I think about do hard things and what the book is actually about, because it's not actually an admonishment to just like whip yourself or push yourself.

• 10:08Ryan Holiday?

  When I think about what it means to be a friend to yourself, I think about it in both senses of the word. So a friend encourages you, pushes you, gets you to see your true value and capabilities and potentials. They're the one cheering for you. They're the one rooting for you. They're the, but they're also the one that doesn't let you beat the shit out of yourself. They're the ones that encourages you to ask for help or perhaps offers help unsolicitedly. So I feel like what you're saying when you say that we should do hard things. It's really, it's not just hard physical things, but it's also the hard emotional things. And it may be the hardest thing of all, which is being kind to yourself.

• 10:55Speaker 01

  I love that. You know, I've, I've studied the Stoics a little bit and that resonates completely because what it is, is you, you're sitting with that tension.

• 11:05Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 11:06Speaker 01

  Right? And that is the space, I think, that is often the, the space for growth is it's sitting with this idea that yes, we need to do difficult things and go towards this discomfort. And often the things where the most growth opportunities are, are a little bit uncomfortable and the things that we often want to avoid. But at the, the flip side of that is, as well as that, that friendship piece you brought in is that to be able to go to that place, to be able to like navigate and come out on the other side, we also have the environment and support to do so.

• 11:46Ryan Holiday?

  When you talk about this early in the book, we had this, like, I think when we think about like elite performance, we have this stereotype of the coach being the bully, the, the, uh, the aggressor. We think of Tom Izzo, like in the face, yell, you know? And, and perhaps that's what we think, like philosophy or self-improvement, or even that voice in your head is supposed to mimic. And in the way that we kind of pick models or representations from culture and movies and sports, I feel like we have internalized that image of the coach, even if one, it's not actually like representative or the most

• 12:30Ryan Holiday?

  effective. And, uh, even if it did get the results, is it the best way to go through the world as a human being?

• 12:41Speaker 01

  Exactly. No, I, I think you're spot on there because it is, the voices in our head are like, they have to come from somewhere.

• 12:49Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 12:50Speaker 01

  And, and what inevitably happens is they come from models that we see in the world, the coaches. We, we have the teachers, we experience all those good things. And I think often what happens is just like you pointed out, we grab onto these models that are, are incredibly appealing in some ways because they almost get to this like natural part where it's like, oh, of course I want someone to like, you know, be in my head telling me, you know, this is what you do. Like get your shit together, all this good stuff. But often like that that backfires. It's almost like it's um this selective pressure where we see someone who does that and says, "Oh, that's the way."

• 13:35Speaker 01

  And then we ignore all these other successful people, coaches, et cetera, who aren't sitting there yelling in our face and get the job done and win the championships and all that good stuff. And that doesn't, you know, that doesn't appeal. It's the classic, you know, the John Wooden versus Bobby Knight.

• 13:57Ryan Holiday?

  Who won more?

• 13:59Speaker 01

  Right, exactly. John Wooden is the the man, the master. Yet, like, how often do we use him as an example versus some of these other coaches who won some, but like, did it in a completely different way? And I think that does us a disservice.

• 14:18Ryan Holiday?

  Well, I think what is much more cinematic and visible, that's probably part of it. But like, it's weird because it just so doesn't jive with anyone's own experience. Like, have you ever been screamed at into performing better? Like, you, I can think of, like, no, it doesn't work at all. And then there's this sense, I think it's almost like, you know, they've done studies where like, why do people reflect fondly on their time in a fraternity, let's say? It's usually because of the cognitive dissonance of like, the pain they had to go through to get into said fraternity, right? And so I think it's like, so many people grew up with shitty coaches who screamed at

• 14:58Ryan Holiday?

  them, that the idea that the younger generation should not have shitty coaches that scream at them seems almost unfair. And then it's like, well, wait, I just let them do this to me and it wasn't part of the process at all? Like, I yeah, I just I even even coaches I know that aren't screamers. If you try to push them to criticize or like critique another coach who does it that way, they're like hesitant to do it, even though I think overwhelmingly like we'd all agree that's not how you get good performance out of people.

• 15:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know, the way I like to put it is when's the last time you performed well out of a place of like just total fear?

• 15:49Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 15:50Speaker 01

  You know, it doesn't happen like, yes, we're gonna have some sort of fear, but we tend to perform best when we have, we're almost freed up. We have the freedom to explore our capabilities and like the security to do so. And whenever you put people in this place of like fear, admonishment, like punishment, etc. to the extreme degree, it just backfires. But I think you're right. I think it's part of like you, we all grew up a certain way. And then I think part of it is too, is from a leadership standpoint, what's the easiest thing or the easiest way to get control and power? It's to be a dictator, right?

• 16:31Speaker 01

  Because the other way requires, you know, oh, I have to cultivate relationships and develop buy-in and that takes time and energy and effort. And when the power dynamics are skewed, like so often in sport and actually in business and leadership, like the cheap way is often like, ah, well, forget this. I'm just gonna be like this hard ass dictator and like tell these people what to do and that'll get the job done.

• 17:01Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, I was reading this article recently and it was saying that like, as a parent, you're never like excited that your kids misbehave, right? But they were like, it's actually in some ways a sign, a positive sign in that your kids think they can, it's safe for them to talk back to you. Like, so when you watch a kid who like never talks back, who always behaves, who Never test boundaries. You're you're almost certainly looking at a kid who is afraid of the of the two people or the one person they should not be afraid of. Right. And what does that? So so like what you're judging as success, like, look how quiet my kids are at dinner or whatever.

• 17:44Ryan Holiday?

  You're actually indicting yourself, right? And that's but but the alternative is to go. Shit, well, that's going to mean my house is not as smoothly run or easy. It means I'm going to have to talk about things multiple times. It's going to mean I'm going to have to convince them why they shouldn't do something for reasons other than I'll make you pay for it. You know what I mean? And so like you said, it's easier to be a dictator. It's actually harder to be.

• 18:18Ryan Holiday?

  And no one's saying they have to be everyone's best friend, but it's actually harder to get real buy in, real cultural buy in than to use sort of force or punishment.

• 18:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, I loved I love the parenting discussions and literature on this subject because it's it's just fascinating to me. Because it's there's there's research behind what you just outlined there, which is if if you look at. We're talking actual discipline and actual like ability to handle challenges. The parents who teach are like parent in a way that is just what you described, like where their kids are afraid. As soon as they're out of the house, as soon as they're in their first job, even in studies, if they go straight to the military. Those people, those kids who like behave because of fear.

• 19:07Speaker 01

  They perform worse. They have less persistence when going into the job and they they have they tend to cause or create more trouble and have less discipline. And even a military standpoint, because they were doing it just out of a place of fear.

• 19:22Ryan Holiday?

  And it's it's the only place left that you can get away with it too, right? Like, like I did, we did this daily silk leadership challenge a while back where we interviewed all these leaders. We did these interviews and I interviewed a couple of different generals in the in the army. And one was in the Air Force, one was in the Army. And anyways, he was like, he's like, I'm like, you know, he's a two star general. And he's like, I've been doing this for like 40 years. He's like, I think I may, and he'd also served in combat, but he's like. I've maybe given two direct orders in my entire career. He's like, even people think that even in the people think that in the military, you're like, you know, you that it's it's the old school way. And they're like, oh, it works there.

• 20:07Ryan Holiday?

  That's why you talk about how like sports and and the rest of the world, we take these lessons from the military. But it's really like what we saw in movies is not actually how it is. He's like, no, I have to ask people to do stuff. And there's this great Eisenhower quote where he says, leadership is the art of getting people to do things because they want to do them. And so it's like, if even in the military, they're not operating under force. They're having to appeal to self interest. They're having to get buy in. They're having to to to think about people as part of an organization and a team, and think about their feelings, etc. Like, the idea that you're going to subject your seven year old to this strikes me as preposterous and and of without value,

• 20:49Ryan Holiday?

  because there's no other what environment are you preparing them for in which someone's going to have a similar amount of command and control over them that's going to mimic this environment?

• 21:01Speaker 01

  Exactly. And I'm glad you brought that up because one of the favorite sections of the book to research was the military side, because we have so many misconceptions. And it's exactly what you said is like, we hold on to these ideas from movies we've seen and and so forth that creates this story and narrative that just isn't real.

• 21:22Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 21:23Speaker 01

  And you you talk to, you know, high level military operators. You talk to people in the special forces and they're all say like, oh, no, it doesn't work this way. Like, you know, it doesn't work this way at all. Like, no, we're taught like we have choice and we're taught how to navigate these things. I mean, one of my favorite stats that I found out is that the US Army is the the nation's largest supplier of sports psychologists. Like, they employ the most. And it's like, why? Why are they employing all these like, we'll say, just like touchy feely? Like, this is how the brain works. This is how we perform. It's because they know it's freaking important.

• 22:04Ryan Holiday?

  Epictetus says that I delight in my improvement day to day. Well, today's sponsor, 10,000, has a mantra that's quite similar. Their mantra, "Better than yesterday," works perfectly with what we talk about here on Daily Stoic. Plus, I just, I love their stuff. I've been wearing it ever since my friend, Rich Roll, turned me on to it. I love the interval short. I love their long sleeve shirt that they have. They've got a short sleeve I've been training in lately. They just make high-quality, great-fitting, comfortable running gear that's both well-suited to people who are serious and then you can also just wear it around during the day. Their session short is great. The lightweight shirt is great. They've got all sorts of features. They've got the silver ion in it for odor protection. They've got no-bounce pockets. They've got breathable flyweight shell fabric.

• 22:49Ryan Holiday?

  There's an optional liner that protects chafing and a bunch of the stuff. The shirts are lightweight and sweat-wicking. It doesn't matter what you do, whether you run, or lift, or train in jiu-jitsu, or tactical training, you can find the stuff that you need from 10,000. And they believe in being better than yesterday, which, as I said, is the sort of stoic idea of continuous improvement, not overnight success. All their stuff's tested by great athletes. They asked me for some feedback, which I was happy to give. You can get free shipping and free returns and a lifetime guarantee from 10,000. And 10,000 is offering our listeners 15% off your purchase. You can go to 10,000.cc/stoic to receive 15% off your purchase. That's 10,000.cc, not .com.

• 23:32Ryan Holiday?

  10,000 spelled out, .cc/stoic.

• 23:39Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, like, some people have started, it's like, "Oh, it's the woke military." You know, they're all, they're going soft or whatever. And it's like, actually, no, it's the exact opposite. I remember I spoke at the Marine Recruiting Command. So, these are the people who are having to recruit people to join at the officer level. So, these, you know, for all the military academies, et cetera. And they were like, "We're trying to poach people from Harvard and Yale." Like, we're like, "We're going after the best talent in the country with seemingly the worst offer," right? Like, you're gonna, you know, you're not gonna get a job at an investment bank after this. You're gonna go get shot at. They're like, if we scream at people, if we're horrible, no one will want to join. And, and I think this is also what they're calling the softening of the military is actually,

• 24:24Ryan Holiday?

  no, this is what happens when you didn't draft people into the military against their will. When, when you're trying to appeal to people who are elite performers or want to be elite performers and are more representative of culture, like they come, you know, like a significant percentage of the military is now female. They come from all different backgrounds. They don't want to be screamed at. They don't want to deal with your sexist bullshit or your, your racist bullshit. They're, they're like, I willingly joined this. I can leave, right? And like, I know what you're, I know like what this is costing you. Like it's basically, it's a result of the leverage that talent has.

• 25:07Ryan Holiday?

  And I think at the core of what we're talking about here is like, talent is a, is a critical thing. The idea that you would abuse it or mistreat it or overtrain it, et cetera, the, the way that the old model would do, whether it's in sports or military, is just, it's not just naive. It's like self-defeating.

• 25:27Speaker 01

  Yes, I, I, I think that is, talent is king. And in the old days, sometimes you could get away with it. And I tell the story of Paul Bear Bryant, famous football coach in there. And what struck me is early on in his career at Texas A&M, he's famous for doing those really difficult camps and all this stuff. But what struck me looking back is how much talent he lost. Like he had some of the best high school players in the country who quit because like, he wasn't like, it was really tough to be on the team. And he, and they not just quit, they quit and then did other sports and became like all Americans and like successful.

• 26:10Speaker 01

  So it's not that they couldn't take it. They were highly successful. But the, the key was back in, when he was coaching, like in the whatever 1950s and 60s, like he was getting a ton of talent and he could just do with, hey. Okay, it's okay. You're the best running back in the country. Like, you're not going to go somewhere else and do things because sports was crazy. Nowadays, we can't get away with that.

• 26:33Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 26:34Speaker 01

  Like, if you if you lose your top talent, you can't just replace them. It's like you're gonna get someone who's who's not as good. And and that's what I think we have to, you know, zooming out to outside of sports. That's one of the lessons that we often forget. And my wife is a is an elementary school teacher. And it drives me nuts because teaching is the worst at this. And that they get good talent. And then they treat everybody the same and like, you know, almost like trash and like, hey, we're going to micromanage you and not allow you to flourish. So they lose the the amount of talent they lose in the first five years of teaching careers is astronomical.

• 27:16Speaker 01

  And then we we sit back and we're wonder, we're like, well, why is the US education system not, you know, not that great? And it's like, yeah, there's all these things and all these solutions, but the bottom line comes to it is like, you're not attracting good talent and then you're not giving them the room to flourish and grow because you have this kind of old school mindset. And that's, again, across the board. Often what we see is if you're, just like the military example you gave, is if you're like sticking to a model that treats people kind of not like decent human beings, you're going to lose that talent and eventually like your performance is just going to plummet.

• 27:53Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, I I've gotten to know the folks at the Rams pretty well. And and I think what's interesting about them, obviously, they have some of the largest budgets in sports because the owner is so wealthy, but they they sort of like they're they're pretty well known for giving like large contract extensions to talent that's performing well. And people are like, why are you doing this? You have them under a contract. You don't have to do it. And they're like, but we want people to work here. Like, we want people to want to work here. And this is also how they've been able to pick up talent like that's left other teams where they've been unhappy. They're like, I'm gonna go somewhere else. I'm gonna go to the Rams because they treat people well. Do you know what I mean? Like, that's not to say that it's Easy to play for the Rams and that they don't get, they're not going to get their money out of you.

• 28:38Ryan Holiday?

  They are, but it's the understanding that yeah, talent is king and that you very rarely does talent. When it has options, is it going to sit around and be abused or mistreated? Or screamed at for no reason. It's just, nobody performs well under that.

• 28:59Speaker 01

  And, and I think what you said there is the option and that's what you see nowadays that you, that we didn't have 40, 50 years ago, right? We have free agency in sports where people can choose where they want to go.

• 29:13Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 29:14Speaker 01

  In, in college sports, you can now transfer freely in the workplace. Like you don't go somewhere and have to work there for 30, 40 years. Like you have the option and, and the worker has a little bit more leverage. And I think that's why you're seeing like teams and organizations like the Rams that are like, oh, like the key is if we treat people decently, yes, like we're going to have high expectations and work hard and all those things. But if we cultivate and create the environment that allows people to flourish, they're more likely to choose us and then stay with us. And I think that is often like, that is the switch that, that we're seeing in modernity and modernity.

• 29:59Speaker 01

  And the, the teams, organizations that succeed.

• 30:03Ryan Holiday?

  I like that you called it attention though, because it's, it's funny, right? Like, uh, and he's probably wrong, you know, Elon Musk is saying about like, uh, no more working from home, you know, you got to come back in the office. I think he is an example of what we're talking about. He, he, he's expecting everyone to work the imbalanced dysfunctional schedule that he has. But it is true that as talented as people can be, this includes you as the individual. It's just because everyone's nice and supportive, doesn't mean you're going to thrive. Like if the tension is you have to create an environment in which people are supported when they're, which they're not mistreated, where you understand the talent is king and.

• 30:48Ryan Holiday?

  You have to, you can't, if, if left to our own devices, we do, I think it was Bill Walsh said that people are like water, we always seek lower ground, you know, so it's this tension of like, um, don't be a hard ass, but also sometimes we need a hard ass.

• 31:10Speaker 01

  Yeah. And, and this is that nuance, right? That is often lost in the social media world, where it's like, we can't swing to one extreme of the pendulum and think like, oh, everybody happy-go-lucky, et cetera. You have to be in a situation where, I like to call it like, that safety and security and where you can flourish, but also that environment that is going to sometimes nudge, sometimes shove you to where you're like, working towards growth. And I think, you know, you do this brilliantly in your own life, but we need to have something in our life that is like, difficult, that pushes our bounds, that like,

• 31:53Speaker 01

  makes us feel a little bit of anxiety, uncomfortableness, discomfort, all of those things. And that it is something that we have in control and that we can kind of like, take on and challenge. And I think that is often the tension there is that like, it's not just like this happy-go-lucky place. It's like the Rams, like, we're going to create an environment that is, that is great, supportive, et cetera. But we're still going to coach you up.

• 32:20Ryan Holiday?

  And if you don't perform, we'll trade you and get in someone who's better.

• 32:24Speaker 01

  Exactly. And I think it's like, it's, you need a little bit of that, you know? One of my, uh, one of my good friends who's coached at a high level professional sport always tells me is like, it's that balance of doubt.

• 32:39Speaker 01

  Too much doubt can be, you know, just hold us back. But a little bit of doubt can be that nudge that says like, okay, like, I gotta stay focused. I gotta keep my mind sharp. I gotta be in this game. And I think that's, that's that tension we're talking about.

• 32:57Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, I, um, you know, I've definitely been guilty of the like, you know, somebody screws up and you're like, what the fuck were you thinking? Like, how could you do this? Right? And I've worked on it where, you know, I've tried to be more controlled. I try to, you know, okay, let's go through this. What happened? And I've been amazed. Typically, it's, it often is with younger people. And, and so it's like, I know when I've, I know when it's on me, right? And then other times I'm like, I'm gonna handle this calmly, patiently. I might be very upset. I'm not gonna let it be known how upset I am when we're through. And the person's still like, I just can't do this. I quit. Right? Like, so it's, it's ironic that like, you know, we're sort of talking about sometimes we can be too tough on people.

• 33:39Ryan Holiday?

  And then I think it's also simultaneously true that there's kind of an epidemic of softness out there where people are not nearly as tough as they need to be to do the things that they say they want to do.

• 33:54Speaker 01

  Yeah. So this is again, one of those tensions that is really fascinating. And for a long period of time, for almost 10 years, I coached collegiately. So worked with 18 to 22 year olds. So I got to see this firsthand. And what I saw is that if you put people in the right environment and then can kind of nudge them towards, hey, we gotta handle difficult things. They're capable of it. But it's almost like they're under trained in that area because we've kind of have this society that like teaches them avoidance.

• 34:31Speaker 01

  And because of that, it's almost like that muscle is just atrophied. The example I like, I like to give is in the sporting world, we'll use running, but I don't know if you've ever had this experience, Ryan, maybe you were coming off an injury or sickness for a while and you get a little bit out of shape. And then that first like hard run you do back, that alarm in your brain just like goes off super early.

• 34:54Ryan Holiday?

  Sure.

• 34:55Speaker 01

  And it's just yelling at you. It's saying like, slow down, stop, like this is really hard. But you know, because of experience, you're like, no, this isn't really that difficult. It's just, I haven't done it in a while.

• 35:06Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 35:07Speaker 01

  And I tend to think like, that's how a lot of younger people like face this world is that when we haven't done anything difficult or challenging, that alarm goes off super early and they mistake it as like, oh, this is real. This is, I'm actually in danger instead of the reality, which is like, no, you just haven't been in the spot for a long time or ever before. So if you just like sit with it and understand it, eventually you're going to learn like, hey, this isn't that bad. And I think that that's the thing we're missing often.

• 35:40Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, Seneca talks about how we treat the body rigorously so that it's not disobedient to the mind. It's like sort of, you have to cultivate a relationship with yourself where it's very clear who's in charge, right? That doesn't mean you never listen to the body when it says like, I'm hurt or I'm injured or whatever, but you do create a sort of a general sense that the body, the body, it's like in my car, for whatever reason, the check, the, um, the gas light goes on when it still has like 150 miles, it's like it gets good gas mileage. I'm used to that in other cars. I'm like, oh, I gotta handle this right now. And it's like, no, no, you don't even know what you're talking about.

• 36:24Ryan Holiday?

  I can drive this to work like three or four more days before I even need to think about this. You have to cultivate that, like who's in charge? Is it the warning light or is it you?

• 36:33Speaker 01

  Right. I love that analogy because it, in this example with people, I think when we talk about being soft, it's, it's as if you see that warning light and then you just spiral out of control, freak out and like try and find the first gas station no matter what. Yes. And that's because the light is dictating. It's, it's saying that you're, you know, it's the one in control of your actions and behaviors. And I think what, what we're saying is you can use that light as feedback. Yeah. You know, it can be, you know, tell you something, but you have to be the one in control where you say, okay, does that light mean I've got 20 more miles or a hundred more

• 37:13Speaker 01

  miles? And like, you need to know that. And the only way you know that is if you get experience, like being in that situation and like pushing the boundaries a little bit. And I think that is what we're missing often in the rest of life is that we have to put ourselves in those experiences. And the example I like to give out, you know, in the athletic realm is, you know, again, I'll just go to running is the longer you run, the more you realize like what the difference between pain and injury is, right? Pain is something temporary that I can control, that I can navigate, that if I keep going, it's not going to be a big deal. Injury is something that, you know, could set me back, that I

• 37:57Speaker 01

  need to listen to, that I need to heed right away because, you know, if I keep pushing and going, I could put myself in even further damage. And like, understanding and picking apart that nuance is, is a skill that we have to develop. And I think it's, again, in the rest of our life, it's that same skill of what's real, what do I pay attention to versus what is like just my body telling me, you know, hey, this is kind of hard and I can just, you know, forget it, ignore it and keep going and keep moving on.

• 38:30Ryan Holiday?

  Your age, the Stoics would say, is just a number. A lot of people have a lot of years, Seneca says, and not much to show it. But I think the idea here is that we age at different speeds. And the date on your license may not represent your inner biological age at all, or the extent of your experiences. And if you are looking for ways to extend your lifespan, or slow down the aging process, well, the key to that is in your blood. And that's why today's sponsor, InsideTracker, provides you with a personal plan to improve your metabolism, reduce stress, improve sleep, and optimize your health for the long haul. Created by leading scientists in aging, genetics, and biometrics, InsideTracker analyzes your blood, your DNA, and your fitness tracking data, like from a smartwatch or smartphone,

• 39:15Ryan Holiday?

  to identify where you're optimized, where you're not. You'll get a daily action plan with personalized guidance on the right exercise, nutrition, and supplementation for your body. And you can add their product, Inner Age 2.0, to any plan for a definitive calculation of your true biological age, to see how you're aging from the inside out. For a limited time, you get 20% off the entire InsideTracker store. Just go to insidetracker.com/stoic. That's insidetracker.com/stoic. I'm waiting on my DNA results right now, to see about the changes that I'm going to make in my life. And I'm excited to see what you all

• 39:57Ryan Holiday?

  come up with by trying InsideTracker at insidetracker.com/stoic. You can get 20% off using that landing page.

• 40:10Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, it's like, what are the warning lights, and which ones you listen to, and when? Like, I remember, I had this kid who worked for me, and he made it like, a week. And he was like, you know what, I just, I don't think this is right for me. I'm worried about my work-life balance, or whatever. And I'm like, first off, it's been a week. Second, you're 20, you know, you're single. What are you talking about, right? And I'm not saying that we should all think about things the same way. It'd just be like, if you were talking to a woman who is 20, and she's like, I'm just really worried about my- Biological clock and it's like that is a concern, but you've got like 15 years before that's like an acute concern, right? Or whatever. Like you're, you're taking somebody else's

• 40:52Ryan Holiday?

  warning light that you've heard about and making it your own as, as an excuse to not have to do this hard thing in front of you. Right? Like what, what this kid was actually struggling with was going from college, I do this stuff for fun. Um, I think I want to do this to, all right, now this is on you and there, and people will be disappointed, upset, you know, frustrated with you if you don't deliver results in a short, like what he was really struggling with was the responsibility of the ownership and decided to make it a work life thing. So he could turn away

• 41:34Ryan Holiday?

  from it. Right? And I think what that's often what we do when we're struggling with hard things. There's, everyone obviously has a limit and there is this point where, yeah, you're about to go into rabdo or you're about to, you know, you're about to burn out or, you know, whatever. There is stuff like that and, and I've dealt with those myself, but often what we're really looking for, what we really want is an excuse to not have to do the hard thing. And we're, we're just looking for anything that will sell. As you know, that expression about will, will the dog hunt? We always want any dog that'll hunt, that'll mean I don't have to be in this discomfort anymore.

• 42:12Speaker 01

  Exactly. And I think the, the thing is our brains are master storytellers. They will give us whatever excuse works. And the more uncomfortable we feel, the more our brain kind of defaults towards, I'm gonna give you an out. Like, let me find the whatever, the hole to step in so I can, I don't have to do this climb or whatever it is. Like, that's what our brains do. They're protective in nature. And I think part of it is like,

• 42:47Speaker 01

  When we're, when we're in those situations is we have to slice and dice up is what's real and what's not. What is my brain freaking out and trying to protect me on versus what is, hey, this isn't really a big deal, or this is coming from this insecurity that I've never dealt with or faced before. And that is the tough part. I think for a lot of, a lot of people going from high school to workforce or college to work is that when we're not put in those positions, we have these kind of distorted expectations where, you know, oh, I'm going to go into the workforce and like, everything's going to be great. And I'm going to make a lot

• 43:29Speaker 01

  of money and move up and do all these things. And it's almost to me like stepping on the starting line of a marathon and expecting it like, oh, this is a piece of cake. I'm never going to go through a difficult time. I'm never going to struggle. Well, what happens? Like you get to mile 13 and it actually freaking hurts. And it's like, oh, there's a lot of doubt. Well, if you expected it to be easy, then the moment it starts getting difficult, your brain spirals towards what's the easiest excuse I can grasp onto. Same thing here.

• 44:02Ryan Holiday?

  I think that's right. And I think the big, the big thing that I find that we use is extrapolation, right? So we go, we extrapolate this out a year or 10 years or 10 minutes. And we go, if it's like this, for that amount of time, I will die, I will hurt, I will be laughed at, I can't cut it, whatever. So to me, you know, when people talk about being present, they think it's this kind of like monkish Buddhist zen thing. But oftentimes, it's more, I think rooted in this sort of stoic idea of like, how tough can you be if you're just like, can I do this right now? Right? Like, like the kid who is concerned about work-life

• 44:44Ryan Holiday?

  balance is thinking like way off in the future. You know what I mean? There's no, he's not extrapolating out a learning curve, getting better, making adjustments, asking

• 44:56Ryan Holiday?

  For, you know, changes, he's just extrapolating out if it's hard right now, it will be hard forever. And I don't want to do a hard thing forever for uncertain rewards. Right. And so I often, I just go like, I'm just going to sit with whatever this is and understand, I forget which runner I heard this from, but something, something about like how it never always gets worse. Like sometimes it gets better, right? Or you get stronger or the, the, the pain just it, it turns itself down a little bit. Oftentimes I think what gets us into trouble and why we can't stay with difficult things is because we've done this insane extrapolation

• 45:38Ryan Holiday?

  that really is a mechanism for creating outs, as you said.

• 45:43Speaker 01

  Exactly. Um, actually this, this weekend I heard a brilliant story. So Des Linden won the Boston Marathon a couple of years ago. And if you listened to what she said early on in that race, she, she actually turned to another American, one of her quote unquote teammates and said, I feel really bad. This isn't my race. Like, let me help you. Like, do you need anything? Do you need any water? I can get it. Like, I'm not going to be able to finish this one. And this is at like mile six of the marathon. Well, because she's Des Linden, a pro marathoner, she like starts helping this athlete, like just runs next to them. Eventually she starts feeling good and she wins the whole freaking thing.

• 46:24Speaker 01

  And I think that gets to this point, which you talked about, which is often we think we get stuck in that the here and now, if it's difficult, it's always going to be this way. And we just project out. And what happens there is that we almost like narrow our worldview. So we can't see anything in the future except for this is going to suck. I'm never going to have my work life balance. And you can't see the positive changes are that, that are going to occur. And if you look at people who will say it thrive under difficult circumstances over the long haul, they possess this really critical ability.

• 47:06Speaker 01

  To both zoom in and zoom out, which means occasionally you're gonna go to the future and get some perspective and be like, hey, how will this look? And, you know, five years, but there also can go the other way when their mind is dragging them to that, that place of like, oh, this is gonna suck for a long time. They go the opposite route and they say, you know what? Forget all that. How do I get through the next five minutes, the next hour, the next day, the next week? And they have almost this faith of like, if I do that, eventually like, I'm gonna come out of this and things are gonna change.

• 47:42Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, yeah. I was just reading some New York Times piece about difficult marriages. And it was saying something like, um, people who were about to get divorced and then didn't, five or six years later, like two thirds of them are actually happy or still happy. Like, so it's not the point that, that, that, uh, people who get divorced always regret it, uh, although, uh, it was saying that most people who get divorced are not happier after they get divorced. Like they say, that when they check in with the people who, who stayed married or got divorced, uh, you know, the people who got divorced are not necessarily happier. And a good chunk of the people who didn't get divorced and stayed married, stuck with the difficult thing are actually in a better place. Right?

• 48:26Ryan Holiday?

  Which is, when we think about hard things, it's not just, hey, I run really fast or I push through it. It's, it's sticking through anything that's challenging you. Um, and understanding that usually you come out of the other side, having learned something, having adapted in some way, gotten some deeper, uh, you know, understanding or perspective that, that makes you glad that you didn't quit when you had the opportunity to quit said thing.

• 48:56Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I think the thing that, that is there is that often the quitting is the easiest choice.

• 49:03Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 49:04Speaker 01

  So we tend to, when we're in the, the thick of things, we tend to default towards the easiest path.

• 49:10Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 49:10Speaker 01

  Because again, our brain is protective. It wants us to get out of that situation. It's in kind of flight mode where it says, oh, we feel anxiety or uncomfortable or whatever, like hit the eject button. And like, that is one path that, that often what happens is like, we regret because it's the simplest, easiest choice, but it's not always the right wise choice.

• 49:35Ryan Holiday?

  Well, I get that because kids reach out to me all the time because they know that I'm a college dropout. And I think something I wrote like ranks well on like, should I drop out of college? I get like lots of emails about it. And I'm always like, how are you doing in school? Right? Because if you're quitting college because if you're dropping out of college because you are failing college, that is not the same thing as I'm leaving college to go do X, Y, or Z. Right? Leaving college when you are failing is almost always the easier thing.

• 50:07Speaker 01

  Right?

• 50:07Ryan Holiday?

  Right? And the fact that you haven't been able to succeed at this hard thing makes me suspicious that you won't be able to do this harder thing, which is make it on your own without the piece of paper, without the support. Like, if you can't muster the discipline to show up to classes, even when they don't matter, right? Like, if you can't figure out how to study for a test or game the system that is college, what makes you think you're going to be able to figure out the writing world, which is even more arbitrary, which has less of a safety net, you know, which requires more bullshit and more daily discipline? Like, why do you think

• 50:49Ryan Holiday?

  you're you're going to be able to do that discipline if you couldn't do the pretend discipline over here?

• 50:57Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I think it like toughness to me comes down to that decision. Right? That's what it's all about. It's like, you're sitting in this place where it's like, I could go the left, I could go to the right. And inevitably, we are drawn towards one because it it makes our life easier. And in that case, like with the college, if the easy choice because you're failing, quote unquote, failing and all of that stuff, the easy choice is to quit. And then to rationalize it afterwards and be like, oh, I'm doing this because, you know, college dropout succeed and this, this and this, and I'm gonna have all this motivation and stuff. Well, that's just the rationalization.

• 51:40Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 51:41Speaker 01

  And what I want people to do is to like, sit in that decision and figure out what is the fake BS rationalization and what is the actual difficult thing, right? If you're failing into college, the difficult thing is to say, okay, why am I failing in this environment and can I turn it around? And to sit with that and ask that. And that's where I want more people to go towards. It doesn't mean it's always the right answer, but if you're, it's almost like going against the natural inclination to take the easy path and just like sitting and evaluating if the difficult path or if the other path is the right one, which often we just kind of, you know, again, rationalize our way out of it

• 52:25Speaker 01

  so that we don't have to even think about that other path.

• 52:28Ryan Holiday?

  Do you think it's important to have a, have a practice in which you cultivate that ability? Like, I think for me, like, running or the physical training that I do, part of that is creating the muscle that allows me to go like, I didn't want to go for a run this morning and I went. I also don't want to take notes on this boring ass book that I read, but I know I need to for something I'm writing, but like, I'm the kind of person that easily and regularly does the things I don't want to do, not just because, not just if they're hard, but because they're hard.

• 53:09Speaker 01

  I, I think it's absolutely a, a muscle that we have. It's a mental muscle. And I think the research backs this up is that if we can train that discipline, that self-control, that ability to sit with that, that hard thing and navigate it, it helps in other aspects of our life.

• 53:28Ryan Holiday?

  And how, how do you cultivate that in your life?

• 53:30Speaker 01

  So in my life, a lot of it is around physical practice, right? In my own world, it's running and I'll give you- You know, when I was growing up, I was a very competitive runner and I don't push it that much anymore. But what I make sure that I do is that in addition to, let's say, my easy running, at least once a week, I'm doing something where I'm pushing like the bounds of my physical ability. That could be going to a nearby hill and doing some sprints up and down it. It could be like, you know, I'm gonna go out four miles and then turn around and try and run the last four miles like hard home. And I do that not because I'm trying

• 54:11Speaker 01

  to race. I don't race anymore or get in good shape. It's just because I want to be able to sit with that like situation where part of my mind is screaming at me to say, hey, like, you're not training for anything. Like, why don't you just slow down? Why don't you quit? You don't have to do this. And just like, sit with it. And I, and I think like, physical aspects are great. But it can also, if I wasn't, you know, I think I do that because most of my work is more intellectual. Sure. And that gives that like, natural, easy thing to do. But just like you as a writer, like, there are tons of things that I don't

• 54:52Speaker 01

  like about, you know, this business that I, that I have to do. And I just, you know, try whenever it's almost like in, in certain aspects of my life, whenever I feel that like anxiety or that fear or that pull towards like, hey, you don't have to do that. That acts as a signal to me to, to sit there and be like, all right, maybe I should move towards this for a little bit. Maybe I should do this thing.

• 55:20Ryan Holiday?

  As a business owner who has my share of employees, I've thought a lot about HR. It's not just enough to hire great people. You have to manage and develop and train those employees. You have to make sure they're comfortable, they're happy, that their needs are met, that, that you're following laws and best practices, or else you're just throwing money down the drain. And that's why today's sponsor, Bambi, is here to help small business owners implement good HR practices. Bambi is an HR platform built for Businesses like yours, you can automate the most important HR practices and get your own dedicated HR manager. First, Bambi's HR autopilot automates your core policies, workplace training, employee feedback. And then your dedicated HR manager helps you navigate the more complex parts of HR,

• 56:04Ryan Holiday?

  guides you to compliance and they're available over phone, email, real time chat. And look, this is a lot cheaper than an in-house HR manager, which can cost more than 80,000 bucks a year. But with Bambi, your dedicated HR manager starts at just 99 bucks a month. No hidden fees, cancel anytime. You run the business, let Bambi run your HR. Go to bambee.com/stoic for your free HR audit. That's B A M B E E dot com slash stoic, bambee.com/stoic.

• 56:36Ryan Holiday?

  Do you think that that practice, because I know you were one of the whistleblowers in the Alberto Salazar thing, which for people who don't know, maybe you can explain a little bit. But I imagine that was a difficult thing. I imagine that was a scary thing. I imagine it was a risky thing and I imagine there were moments in it where you could have been like, you know what? I'm done. I did my part. I don't care about this anymore. Do you feel like cultivating the sort of physical practice also then translates to what we might call the sort of the more moral domain where we have to exhibit toughness?

• 57:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's a great question. I do. So the brief rundown on that is I was a whistleblower in a case that saw anti doping violations. So, you know, performance enhancing drug violations. And I blew the whistle and US anti doping took, you know, investigated and found that there were violations. And that was one of the most difficult periods of my life and it lasted almost 10 years. From the very beginning of like blowing the whistle to the final, you know, conclusion after appeals and all that stuff. And there were many, many moments where I thought about how my life would be easier

• 57:57Speaker 01

  if I just stepped back and checked out.

• 58:00Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 58:01Speaker 01

  And in fact, like my parents, relatives, like all preferred that I went that that path. They were like, this is not going to be easy. Like you're going up David against Goliath. This won't end the way you think it will. So I do think that like this toughness is also wrestling with like that moral decisions. Because the easy decision, what is it there? Well, it's to stay quiet, shut up and go about your life because like your life will be better. My like my life is not quote unquote better because I I blew the whistle. It is 100% not. But what it what I was forced to do is wrestle with like

• 58:44Speaker 01

  that discomfort of, well, if I choose the easy path, what's the result? Well, the result to me was other people would be put in the situation. Other people would potentially be harmed. Like at that point, what really, you know, pushed me forward is I saw teenage, you know, teenagers joining the team on and what I saw and I I thought I was like in my mid 20s when I went through it. And I in my head, I'm like, gosh, I can't imagine going through this and being in these situations as a 17, 18 year old. Like, they're certainly not equipped if I wasn't equipped as a 26 year

• 59:22Speaker 01

  old. And like those sorts of things, like, it's just like in in navigating a physical discomfort. Half your brain is telling you take the easy route. And then you have to figure out, okay, but is the easy route the correct decision? Is that the one I want to live with? And I think having that physical practice like did help because any and in fact, I know it did because like, whenever I had to do something hard around the case, like go in and, you know, give testimony and and be grilled for like, you know, five, six hours under oath. Like,

• 1:00:02Speaker 01

  what did I go back to? I went back to, I'm feeling this anxiety. I'm feeling like I want to escape and I want to say no. But I need to navigate it. And how do I navigate it? I went back straight to my my running. I was like, how do I get through these things? Just break it down.

• 1:00:21Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, it's funny, we we. Think that we support whistleblowers and we think we celebrate whistleblowers, which sometimes we do after the fact. And then we don't really realize what a grueling marathon it is. Like, like we do this all like, oh, they're just doing this for money or they're just doing this for attention or whatever. First off, there's almost never any money in it. Second of all, they're almost always would have preferred to just be able to do their fucking job and not have to do this stuff. But like, the amount of bureaucracy and setbacks and discouragement and collateral damage and punishment that goes into,

• 1:01:06Ryan Holiday?

  before the public even hears about it, is usually so immense that I think, I think people think though, oh, I would do it. If I saw something wrong, I would do something about it. And they don't, they don't fully realize what it takes out of a person. And then that's why most of us don't do stuff like that.

• 1:01:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, it's, it's, it's so emotionally draining. I mean, I wouldn't wish blowing the whistle on anybody because it is, it was emotionally draining to the max. Like, it impacted my relationships, my friendships, like my environment. And in, in all honesty, also, it shifted kind of my personality for a long time. Where I became like, almost like timid and didn't want to like, you know, put myself out there in any way. Because like, I was going through this really challenging, hard time.

• 1:02:06Speaker 01

  So, you know, being a whistleblower is, I, I don't, it's not something anybody wants to do.

• 1:02:15Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah. Yeah. No, I had Alexander Vindman on the podcast and the amount of emails I got from people in the military that were like, oh, he just did it for X, Y, and Z. And I was just like, look, why don't you challenge the most powerful man in the world and then come back to me and tell me if you still think, you know, he did this for the following reasons, right? Like, it's just, I think we, we think of these moral acts as being like easy or default, but in a sense, they're as difficult an ordeal as running some insane mile time or lifting some

• 1:02:56Ryan Holiday?

  absurd amount of weight. Like, it, it is not what we are meant to do, and it's certainly not what most people do, right? By definition, like, if everyone was a whistleblower, there would be no need for whistleblowers, right? Like, so the fact that everyone, like, that many people saw the same thing, and they were the only ones, or in your case, you're the only that did it, should give us some immediate bit of context that this was a hard thing to do.

• 1:03:27Ryan Holiday?

  If it was easy, if it was easy, everyone would do it, right?

• 1:03:31Speaker 01

  Exactly. We wouldn't need whistleblowers, and we wouldn't. And, you know, maybe to give context, I remember, so at the very beginning, when I was contemplating, you know, blowing the whistle, because it took me, you know, I sat, sat on things for a good couple of months before I said, okay, I have to do something. I remember talking to this, like, very esteemed, like, judge in, in my native Texas. And my parents, like, you know, they were the only ones who knew I saw anything. And they're like, why don't you talk to someone, like, here's this judge that we know, like, go talk to him. And I remember him saying, Steve, the right thing to do is probably to speak

• 1:04:12Speaker 01

  up. But I've been on the bench in some high, you know, powered cases for like 40 years. And let me tell you, the whistleblowers, like, never benefit.

• 1:04:24Speaker 01

  They never come out like, you know, never come out on the, on the good side. People will hate them. You'll go through very difficult things. And he's like, I'm not here to tell you what's right or wrong, but just know that and consider that before you come out. You're not going to be like some hero or whatever have you. And it was absolutely true. And I think that, that framing really helped because it did suck. And like part of what allowed me to, or what pushed me to, to, to take that step where others wouldn't, was I remember, you know, in fact, I read some of your, your Stoicism books back then on this. And then it was like, I just had to prepare for the reality

• 1:05:09Speaker 01

  that was about to approach. So I went through the exercise of what happens if I can never do the job that I went to school for? What happens if I have to pivot completely? What happens if I have to cut myself off from like these friends and colleagues I've formed in the workplace and in the, the environment I was in? What happens if, you know, I can't get jobs because I'm, you know, blackballed and like have to find another way to make money? And I went through all of those things just so that I knew like, am I prepared for this? And am I still willing to do this?

• 1:05:51Speaker 01

  And it came down to where it's like, I knew from my conscience that I had to do it. And then I was prepared if I had to pivot, go a whole different direction. And, you know, again, couldn't make money for a while.

• 1:06:03Ryan Holiday?

  Well, and I think it's like, why are you doing this? If you're doing this thing for the rewards, if you're doing it because you think it'll be fun, if you do it because you think it'll be easy, you know, you're gonna, you're gonna, you're not going to make it through the valley of despair, as they, as they call it. Like in the startup world, it's like you get the elation of your first media hit and then they call it the trough of despair. And so if you're starting a company because you think it's going to be a great way to meet women, or because you think it's an easy way to make a lot of money, or blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, you're not going to make it through the trough of despair. Right? And so if, and it's the same thing, if you're running to, to win an award or to be recognized. You're not going to do the day to day training that you need to do when no one's

• 1:06:47Ryan Holiday?

  watching. If you're doing it because you love it, if you're doing it because you want to see what's on the other side, if you're doing it, blah, blah, blah, then, then you can do it. And so I think, like, I think about this with books, like, I, I have something I have to say, that's why I'm doing it. If I didn't have to say it, I wouldn't say it, right? Like, if you, if it was optional, you wouldn't make it through the other side. And so I think if you're doing it because you have to, because you're asking yourself that question that Hillel said, like, if not me, then who, right? Like, if you're asking, if it's on some deeper level, then you have the toughness, or the, the why that can get you through. And if you don't, you're just going to wilt, because like, it, it

• 1:07:29Ryan Holiday?

  doesn't make financial, economic, physical, it doesn't make sense. You know what I mean? The equation doesn't get you there.

• 1:07:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's, it's that meaning and purpose behind it. It has to be something deep. And I, I think that's what, you know, whatever we're talking about, starting a company, writing a book, you know, blowing the whistle, is it has to be something that is powerful enough to get you through that trough of despair, to get you through the, the very difficult times. Because if it's not, you're going to fade.

• 1:08:00Ryan Holiday?

  And so, go ahead, sorry.

• 1:08:02Speaker 01

  I was gonna say, ironically, what we often try to do, though, is cultivate a motivation in younger people based on like, the external, external, the rewards, like, write, write this book so that, like, you can get more clients. And you and I know, like, if that's why you're starting to write a book, you're gonna get halfway through and be like, this sucks, I'm not gonna do it. So it's like that why, that deeper connection, like, has to be there. And that is often the fuel that gets us through really challenging times.

• 1:08:34Ryan Holiday?

  Yes, I think that's right. So the last thing I wanted to ask you about was, I'm glad that you brought up that Stoicism was something you looked at as you were doing this, because I think sometimes people think of, they think of Stoicism as one, being sort of passive, or they think about it just as this thing that helps you do tough, physical feats, like sort of being the emotionless robot, or, you know, the emotionally invulnerable person. But I like that it was something you turned to for the moral support necessary to do a thing that other people around you were saying, you know what, this might not be worth it.

• 1:09:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, I mean, I remember reading, again, Obstacle is the Way, I read Marcus Aurelius' Meditations, because like, and Marcus Aurelius was really kind of formative on that, because I remember reading that and being like, here is this person who is going through, like, leading an empire, essentially, through these challenging times, and he's having, like, some of these same doubts, the same insecurities, and then giving kind of a roadmap on like, here's how I think about it, here's how I'm on a, like, here's how I think about, you

• 1:09:54Speaker 01

  know, preparing for things. And that was, again, very powerful, and I remember that was kind of the, uh, the, the thing that, that forced me to say, okay, like, what's the reality I'm preparing for? And am I okay going on that journey? And what does it mean to go, go on that journey? And I think this is where it, you know, at the beginning, we talked about the stories that we have in our heads, on coaches and others that form, form, you know, your, how you approach difficult things. I think this is where, whether it comes from religion, or Buddhism, or Stoicism, or whatever have you, a combination of this,

• 1:10:37Speaker 01

  is that really great thinkers have spent a lot, lot of time, like, navigating these challenges. And what that does is those ideas, those philosophers, those thinkers, they almost give us good language and models for how to tackle these things. And it replaces the, what I would call the cheap language and models of like modern society with something that is timeless and that has helped people throughout the world. And I think that to me is like, one of the best things that something like Stoicism has done. And then also, as you know, I'm a big fan of your work, Ryan, is that like your work translating that to the masses

• 1:11:20Speaker 01

  has done as well as it provides us with these mental models that are actually useful and that actually help us in the real world.

• 1:11:28Ryan Holiday?

  Well, I think that's an important point that you just made, which is that like, whatever the hard thing you're trying to do is, whether it's make it through bootcamp, or start your own company, or be a whistleblower, or be a pioneer in some new field, or whatever it is, someone has done some version of that hard thing before. And probably written a book or more about that topic. And you're an idiot if you don't avail yourself of that very hard-won knowledge. And yet, that's what people do all the time for some insane reason.

• 1:12:11Speaker 01

  Exactly. This is why, you know, to me, like, reading, or if you want to listen, or whatever, like, books is the best thing that you can do. Because you're taking someone's experience that was probably hard fought over years.

• 1:12:26Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 1:12:27Speaker 01

  And they're condensing it down to, these are the important points. This is what helped me get through this. And like, these are the lessons you can take away. And that's why whenever I'm going through, you know, something uncertain, I turn to reading. Like, and often, and the other advice I'd give to listeners is, I do two things. Whenever I'm facing something challenging, I turn to reading, but I make sure I read something. Contemporary and then couple that with something that is, you know, hundreds or thousands of years old. So that hopefully you get that ancient wisdom. And then also, you know, hopefully you get something that maybe can apply or that is more applicable in contexts

• 1:13:12Speaker 01

  that is today.

• 1:13:13Ryan Holiday?

  And the third thing, though, I would add to that. And in some cases, this is the toughest thing for people to do, which is I would try to look around you and think of people you know or have access to who have also been through something like this and ask them for help, right? Like, there's this great line in this book, The Boy, the Fox, the Horse and the Mole, that I like to read to my kids. And he says, asking for help isn't giving up, it's refusing to give up. Right? And that sometimes we, we, we internalize toughness as going it alone, gutting it out, just, just taking it. When it may well be that somebody you know, like you

• 1:13:57Ryan Holiday?

  have kids, well, you also have parents, right? And grandparents and aunts and uncles who have been in the shit that you are in right now. And you, you should avail yourself of that hard won wisdom too. And don't be afraid to ask for help. And to go to where we opened this, this idea of being a good friend to yourself. When your friends ask you for help, you're not like, this guy again, you know, you're like, you're flattered, you know, you're, or it's interesting or exciting. You're like grateful for the opportunity to help. And then when we have problems, we're like, I don't want to bother anyone with this. It's, it's totally irrational.

• 1:14:36Speaker 01

  Oh, I'm, I'm so glad you brought that up because I think that is it. Like, again, what's the easy decision in those moments? It's just to put your head down and be like, oh, I'm not going to bother you. Often the tough decision is to be like, you know what? I'm going through something. I gotta reach out. I gotta get help. And this is also a place where I think mentors are invaluable because they often have gone through the challenges that you're facing. So to have someone where you have that relationship, where you can pick up the phone or, or have coffee with them and just be honest and open and, and get advice. I think that is, you know, that is the tough thing to do. But it's also the thing that will get you through really challenging times.

• 1:15:21Ryan Holiday?

  That's perfectly said, Steve. Look, I loved the book. I also loved Peak Performance, which I carry in my bookstore, and I really appreciate you writing this, and I hope we can do this again sometime.

• 1:15:33Speaker 01

  Thanks so much, Ryan. Really appreciate it.

• 1:15:42Ryan Holiday?

  Thanks so much for listening. If you could rate this podcast and leave a review on iTunes, that would mean so much to us, and it would really help the show. We appreciate it, and I'll see you next episode.