Rewind with Karen & Georgia - 30: The F*ck Word Murder Mystery Show

It's time to Rewind with Karen & Georgia! This week, K & G recap Episode 30: The F*ck Word Murder Mystery Show. Georgia discussed serial killer Cary Stayner and the Yosemite murders and Karen covered con man and murderer Clark Rockefeller (aka Christian Gerhartsreiter aka Chris Crowe aka Chris Chichester). Listen for all-new commentary, case updates and much more!

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  This is exactly right.

• 0:06Speaker 01

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• 0:35Speaker 00

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• 1:20Speaker 00

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• 1:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Hello.

• 1:50Karen Kilgariff?

  And welcome.

• 1:51Georgia Hardstark?

  To Rewind with Karen in Georgia.

• 1:53Karen Kilgariff?

  You see, every Wednesday, we release one of our old shows, but there's a twist. We add all-new commentary, updates, insights, everything, the lives we've led, the people we are, the people we've become, the whole story. We give it to you.

• 2:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Today, we're recapping episode 30, which, for the first time in 29 episodes, isn't named after the number pun. Thank you, Jesus.

• 2:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Phew, thank God.

• 2:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Called one of the greats, it's called The Fuck Word Murder Mystery Show. Find out, find out why by listening to this.

• 2:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Stay tuned and you can find out why we named it that. And join us today as we take you back to August 18th, 2016. God, the summer of 2016. And now we can all be day one listeners together.

• 2:40Georgia Hardstark?

  So let's listen to the intro of episode 30.

• 2:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Are you ready?

• 2:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Are you?

• 2:49Karen Kilgariff?

  I'm ready.

• 2:50Georgia Hardstark?

  And let's have, let's be really low energy this time.

• 2:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Let's be as quiet as we can.

• 2:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes.

• 2:57Karen Kilgariff?

  And.

• 2:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Fuck, I screwed it up already.

• 2:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 3:02Karen Kilgariff?

  You want to be quiet? Yes.

• 3:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes.

• 3:04Karen Kilgariff?

  That's all I ever wanted.

• 3:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, God.

• 3:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Hi, welcome to My Favorite Murder. That's Georgia Hardstark.

• 3:10Georgia Hardstark?

  That's Karen Kilgariff. The quietest, we're the quietest girls.

• 3:14Karen Kilgariff?

  We're so quiet.

• 3:16Georgia Hardstark?

  On podcasts. Thanks for, thanks for being here. It's like spending your, spending an hour with us.

• 3:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Thanks.

• 3:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Thinking about things with us.

• 3:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Guys, there's so much going on in our world.

• 3:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Not the least of which is.

• 3:33Karen Kilgariff?

  How Georgia doesn't like Stranger Things. What? There's someone at the door. They're here to hang you up from the highest limb of a tree.

• 3:42Georgia Hardstark?

  I didn't, I don't not like it. I have issues with it.

• 3:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay, let's hear them.

• 3:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Well, it reminds me, remember the old Stephen King movies that would be made of Stephen King books? That would be on, that were made for TV, like thinner?

• 3:55Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 3:55Georgia Hardstark?

  And how ridiculous they were? And if you guys say, what about true or Pet Sematary? Go back and watch it again. It's the corniest movie.

• 4:03Karen Kilgariff?

  But it would, that was a feature film.

• 4:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 4:06Karen Kilgariff?

  And there was some scary shit in them.

• 4:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes, I love that movie, but if you go back, you're like, oh, this is so corny.

• 4:11Karen Kilgariff?

  It doesn't hold up.

• 4:12Georgia Hardstark?

  No. And it reminds me kind of of that, of Stephen King, like made for TV movies. And maybe it's kind of supposed to. But I also just, it reminded me of like someone who doesn't read sci-fi made up show about sci-fi.

• 4:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 4:28Georgia Hardstark?

  And like, I feel like if, it's the kind of movie where if someone who had read the book were watching it, which I know there's not a book, but if you were, you'd be like, why the fuck did they? Leave this thing out. This was the most important part. Like, I feel like I would have been screaming that if I had read the book.

• 4:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, you know, I've found, uh, I, I think because I like seeing, uh, I'm at that stage where that kind of nostalgia works on me because it's from when I was 10.

• 4:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. Um, I love the look and feel, but that other stuff took me out of it.

• 5:00Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, and it's really hard to connect. This is, this is kind of like the Stephen King problem and like lost a lot of those things. When you get your big, good idea that's gonna freak people out and, and hook people in. And then you try to connect that with kind of believable science or something grounded. It's, it's very difficult to do. So it's like,

• 5:22Karen Kilgariff?

  the upside down, right? Is what it was called. Like, but

• 5:26Georgia Hardstark?

  There was nothing.

• 5:27Karen Kilgariff?

  That you just kind of entered it through this weird, I mean,

• 5:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. And you could go get your, like, it just, yeah, there was a lot of, wait, what? In it for me, like, and

• 5:36Karen Kilgariff?

  If you can walk into it, then why does she have to go into the thing to get into it?

• 5:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. And like, well, what is it? What is it made out of? Why did this happen? Why did this person exist?

• 5:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 5:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Why do they, how did she get out of the, yeah.

• 5:50Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 5:51Georgia Hardstark?

  It's, this is another episode of Georgia can't suspend her disbelief.

• 5:55Karen Kilgariff?

  Uh, you know, and it's a valid, uh, angle.

• 5:59Georgia Hardstark?

  I do, however, like the night of, I've gone through, I'm three episodes in.

• 6:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay. Well, when you get to the episode that aired last night.

• 6:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my God.

• 6:09Karen Kilgariff?

  First of all, I keep falling asleep in front of the TV after watching Night of and then dreaming about, Riz Ahmed all night, which makes me crazy.

• 6:18Georgia Hardstark?

  They were showing photos of him as a kid, like as part of this show and, but there were real photos of him as a kid. And I was like, I want that DNA inside of me. Like, I want that baby. That sounded gross.

• 6:28Karen Kilgariff?

  That's the biggest kind of crush you can have when you want their DNA.

• 6:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Because, who wants your DNA inside me? That's like a serial killer Valentine.

• 6:37Karen Kilgariff?

  That's disgusting.

• 6:39Georgia Hardstark?

  That's a serial killer Valentine.

• 6:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Um, no, that's how I feel about him. I, I steal that idea from you and I take it.

• 6:45Georgia Hardstark?

  I don't want to sleep with him. I have a husband that I love who doesn't want kids, so I'll just have one from him with big eyes and like beautiful.

• 6:52Karen Kilgariff?

  After he and I marry and have many of our own and then you

• 6:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Can we get into a thing here?

• 6:57Karen Kilgariff?

  I guess we could.

• 6:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Like kind of a fun.

• 6:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Fun. It'd be good for the podcast.

• 7:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. Um, it's a very long, long show.

• 7:07Karen Kilgariff?

  I love it though.

• 7:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Episodic. I, okay, two things.

• 7:09Karen Kilgariff?

  It's like a play.

• 7:10Georgia Hardstark?

  It is like a play. I would watch a whole show of just John Turturro and about his eczema. Didn't know there were eczema support groups. That's fascinating. Those poor, those poor people.

• 7:23Karen Kilgariff?

  They can't date.

• 7:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, I didn't know eczema was, was that awful.

• 7:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 7:28Georgia Hardstark?

  That's amazing. And then last night, yesterday, when I watched it, Janet Colgate is now a character from Dirty, Rotten Scoundrels.

• 7:35Karen Kilgariff?

  What?

• 7:36Georgia Hardstark?

  You know, the, the female lawyer?

• 7:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

• 7:39Georgia Hardstark?

  I got so happy when I saw.

• 7:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Named her name, Janet Colgate.

• 7:43Georgia Hardstark?

  I said, when she came on screen, I said it in like, in a, the accent that was said in, and I think Vince was like, who did I, what did I marry?

• 7:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Wait, what's that actress's name?

• 7:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Um, you think, I can remember her character from a cheesy movie from the eighties, but I can't remember her real name.

• 7:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Her name is?

• 7:58Georgia Hardstark?

  You'll get this. You always get this.

• 8:01Karen Kilgariff?

  I know, but it's hot.

• 8:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Elizabeth.

• 8:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Nope. It's.

• 8:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Stacey Nancy.

• 8:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Stacy Nancy.

• 8:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Stacy Nancy.

• 8:09Karen Kilgariff?

  It's my favorite actress Stacy Nancy from such plays as.

• 8:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Nancy St. Stacy.

• 8:15Karen Kilgariff?

  And Nancy St. Stacy. That's the best stage name of all time.

• 8:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Taking it.

• 8:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Stealing it.

• 8:22Georgia Hardstark?

  My favorite murder with Karen Gilgar.

• 8:23Karen Kilgariff?

  And Nancy St. Stacy. Oh, my God, that's good.

• 8:28Georgia Hardstark?

  So sweaty.

• 8:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Are you looking it up, Stephen?

• 8:31Georgia Hardstark?

  What is it, Stephen?

• 8:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Is, is the letter P in her first or last name?

• 8:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Penelope.

• 8:35Speaker 04

  Not at all.

• 8:37Karen Kilgariff?

  Damn it. Then just say her name.

• 8:38Speaker 04

  Uh, it's Glenn Hedley.

• 8:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Glenn Hedley.

• 8:41Georgia Hardstark?

  You said that as if it was on the tip of your tongue. It's not.

• 8:44Karen Kilgariff?

  It was nowhere near my brain.

• 8:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Glenn Hedley?

• 8:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Glenn Hedley. She's such a great actress.

• 8:48Georgia Hardstark?

  She is, but oh, her name. Stephen Ray Morris, thank you for that.

• 8:52Karen Kilgariff?

  But yeah.

• 8:52Speaker 04

  Anytime.

• 8:53Karen Kilgariff?

  That's um, that's like one of those white waspy names I would have never gotten because in my world, girls can't be named Glenn.

• 8:59Georgia Hardstark?

  I've definitely never heard that before.

• 9:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, that's a family name, I'm sure.

• 9:02Georgia Hardstark?

  I'm sure it is. That's on a crest somewhere.

• 9:05Karen Kilgariff?

  But, um, so two thumbs up for the night of.

• 9:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, watch it.

• 9:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Um, we're not talking about this, we're not talking about Stranger Things anymore.

• 9:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 9:15Karen Kilgariff?

  It's gone off.

• 9:16Georgia Hardstark?

  I. Did you like the ending that they left it open, obviously, for a second season?

• 9:22Karen Kilgariff?

  I'm gonna admit, I fell asleep at some point in the later episodes, and I can't remember how it ended.

• 9:29Georgia Hardstark?

  They ended it in a way that was, there's just like no satisfying ending. Can I tell you?

• 9:34Karen Kilgariff?

  Because do you think there's gonna be a season two?

• 9:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Well, Nancy and Steve are still together.

• 9:38Karen Kilgariff?

  What?

• 9:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 9:39Karen Kilgariff?

  But she didn't love him.

• 9:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Does she?

• 9:41Karen Kilgariff?

  She doesn't.

• 9:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Does she love fake Ben Schwartz? That's all I could see when I saw him. Did you see that?

• 9:47Karen Kilgariff?

  That's exactly what he looks like.

• 9:48Georgia Hardstark?

  He looks so much, he's like WASP Ben Schwartz.

• 9:50Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, he looks like if Ben Schwartz got put through a rock and roll machine.

• 9:56Georgia Hardstark?

  I really like a Ben Schwartz, I promise. I, nothing wrong with him, but I just couldn't see that character.

• 10:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Um, but sorry, she goes back to him?

• 10:07Georgia Hardstark?

  I feel like I just, I should have spoiled alerted that.

• 10:09Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, that's a big spoiler alert.

• 10:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Excuse me. I feel like I just burped really loudly and like, without warning anyone or saying excuse me before or after. Excuse me.

• 10:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Excuse me.

• 10:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Excuse me.

• 10:20Karen Kilgariff?

  Can I say, can I read you my favorite tweet that we've gotten on the My Favorite Murder Twitter account?

• 10:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Always. This is Tweet Corner with Karen.

• 10:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Tweet Corner, welcome. Meow, meow, meow, meow.

• 10:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Why did you just meow?

• 10:32Karen Kilgariff?

  That's the theme song.

• 10:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 10:34Karen Kilgariff?

  Um, uh, Mimi, the unsung cat of the Hard Stark household, she sings the theme song to Tweet Corner. Meow, meow, meow, meow.

• 10:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Mimi's gotta have her, her spot in the...

• 10:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, this is it. She's come to shine.

• 10:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Ready, Mimi?

• 10:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Meow, meow, meow, meow. She's totally asleep. Um, someone on Twitter named Trash Panda I R L.

• 10:59Georgia Hardstark?

  I love her already.

• 10:59Karen Kilgariff?

  That's not a real person. Read, read what her name is. Oh, Tween Sensation. Tween Sensation is her handle.

• 11:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 11:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Trash Panda I R L is her, I don't know, account name, I don't know.

• 11:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Trash Panda.

• 11:12Karen Kilgariff?

  And on her, on her Twitter account, sorry, but I just noticed this, her header picture is a picture of Barb and it says, "In memory of Barb, see you on the other side."

• 11:24Georgia Hardstark?

  That's incredible.

• 11:25Karen Kilgariff?

  And it's an illustration of Barb from Stranger Things.

• 11:28Georgia Hardstark?

  That's the best.

• 11:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Hell yeah, Trash Panda.

• 11:29Georgia Hardstark?

  The best.

• 11:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Way to bring it all around. So she tweeted at us and said, "My dad keeps calling your show the fuck word murder mystery show because he can't remember the name." And I cannot stop laughing at that.

• 11:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Say it again.

• 11:44Karen Kilgariff?

  "My dad keeps calling your show the fuck word mystery murder mystery show because he can't remember the name."

• 11:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Ah.

• 11:51Karen Kilgariff?

  That is, so first of all.

• 11:53Georgia Hardstark?

  I can't.

• 11:54Karen Kilgariff?

  If my dad heard a podcast where girls were saying the F-word, he would pull the stereo out of the car and throw it onto the highway. I swear, if my dad ever hears this, he's going to call me with such a stern tone. And so I love the fact that Trash Panda IRL's dad is even listening to it at all.

• 12:14Georgia Hardstark?

  I love him.

• 12:14Karen Kilgariff?

  I love him.

• 12:15Georgia Hardstark?

  He sounds like my dad.

• 12:17Karen Kilgariff?

  And I, I think we might need to change the name of this podcast to the fuck word murder mystery show.

• 12:22Georgia Hardstark?

  I try not to do this, but someone who makes the memes needs to get our logo and change it into, say it one more time because it makes me so happy, the fuck word.

• 12:32Karen Kilgariff?

  The fuck word murder mystery show. It's just beautiful.

• 12:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Could I read you something that's probably gonna make you wanna cry?

• 12:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 12:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Liz C. on the Facebook page says, "I'm 19 years old and fighting cancer at the moment."

• 12:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh no.

• 12:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Ready to cry?

• 12:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Yep.

• 12:50Georgia Hardstark?

  "My dad and I listen to the podcast on the way to the hospital and back. It's a great way to keep my mind off things, except now I'm scared to get murders, LMAO. I can't wait for the new shirts to come out. I'm definitely going to be wearing it to the hospital. Love all you murderinos." And then there's 200 comments, including mine, that says, "Your next shirt is on the fucking house."

• 13:11Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh. What's her name, Liz?

• 13:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Liz, yeah, Liz.

• 13:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Hey Liz, you fight the good fight.

• 13:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Girl.

• 13:18Karen Kilgariff?

  You get in there, you do your fucking chemo or however you're taking care of this business and get it taken care of and get it out of you.

• 13:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 13:26Karen Kilgariff?

  And many years of this stupid bullshit to come.

• 13:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Wait, the podcast or cancer?

• 13:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Uh, no, no, none of that, only the podcast. And then general fun things in life.

• 13:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, murder, cancer. You're gonna be the smartest person you know because you've dealt with this thing.

• 13:42Karen Kilgariff?

  And you're gonna have a great perspective on life.

• 13:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 13:44Karen Kilgariff?

  I actually know many cancer survivors. And the cool part about it is, once you get through that, all that bullshit of like, "That girl took my brush and now I'm going to try to ruin it." And you don't do that shit anymore because you're like,

• 13:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 13:59Karen Kilgariff?

  You're like, "Oh, I understand what loss is."

• 14:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 14:01Karen Kilgariff?

  And I understand the gift of life that we have right now.

• 14:03Georgia Hardstark?

  And my family, who was there for me when I'd like that we that we were able to get through this together. The fact that her dad listens to that on the way. That listens to this bullshit?

• 14:13Karen Kilgariff?

  You guys.

• 14:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Sorry, we curse.

• 14:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Stay strong. We love you. We're thinking of you.

• 14:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, we're back. Thank you, Tween Sensation and your dad for that amazing title suggestion. That's amazing.

• 14:30Georgia Hardstark?

  And then, of course, you better believe that some awesome murderino created our logo with this brand new title. It's, we'll put it up on the Instagram and on all the socials. It was, uh, Jason Klein.

• 14:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Jason Klein was like, "The wife's out of the house, the kids are asleep. You better believe I'm making you a logo." It was the best.

• 14:49Georgia Hardstark?

  It's so good. It looks exactly like it.

• 14:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Apparently, we really loved Stranger Things. I don't remember having that sort of passion.

• 14:56Georgia Hardstark?

  I don't either. The first season, I think, was fucking excellent. And that's why.

• 15:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Maybe it was the newness of the style.

• 15:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 15:03Karen Kilgariff?

  And then it truly has been on for seasons and seasons.

• 15:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. Mystery, 80s mystery with like, great clothes, music.

• 15:12Karen Kilgariff?

  Winona Ryder.

• 15:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes, the scenery is just like, spot on. There's like a missing child aspect to it, which is always exciting.

• 15:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Somebody like that look, a young girl with a shaved head who looks like she's in a daze with a bloody nose. Boom, I'm in.

• 15:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 15:29Karen Kilgariff?

  What is this? I'm hooked.

• 15:31Georgia Hardstark?

  What happened to her?

• 15:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. All right, well, it's time to get into, uh, yeah, one of, oh, God.

• 15:38Georgia Hardstark?

  I know.

• 15:39Karen Kilgariff?

  This is kind of an epic true crime story because it is connected to another true crime story, which is like, those are very rare and horrifying. And this one is one of the worst. So let's listen to Georgia tell the story of the Yosemite Park Killer, Carrie Stainer.

• 15:58Georgia Hardstark?

  The holidays are coming, which means we'll all be spending more time away from home.

• 16:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Whether you're visiting family or doing something actually fun, you want to know your home is protected while you're away.

• 16:07Georgia Hardstark?

  That's why now is a good time to think about home security with SimpliSafe.

• 16:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Unlike traditional security systems that alert you after a break-in starts, SimpliSafe is designed to help stop intruders before they get inside. These days, you're worried about your house, you're out of town, and then something comes up and you get to look on your phone, and SimpliSafe is going to show you not only the video of like, "It's a raccoon at your front door", but also that they have staff that's sitting there, they already know. And if it was something different or worse, they would have already been on it.

• 16:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, I really think that's invaluable peace of mind that just like relying on your neighbors, paying attention is not going to give you. We've partnered with SimpliSafe to offer our listeners their biggest savings of the year. 70% off your new system with professional monitoring when you visit simplisafe.com/mfm.

• 16:53Karen Kilgariff?

  That's simplisafe.com/mfm. And when you order, write in "MFM" at checkout, and it tells them we sent you, and it really helps the show.

• 17:01Georgia Hardstark?

  SimpliSafe, ahead of crime in real time. Goodbye.

• 17:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Nothing makes you take a good, hard look at your furniture like inviting people over for the holidays.

• 17:10Georgia Hardstark?

  So give your home a little holiday upgrade with Article.

• 17:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Article makes it effortless to create a stylish, long-lasting home at an unbeatable price.

• 17:18Georgia Hardstark?

  They take great care in curating their collection, focusing on pieces that stand the test of time. There's no filler, every item is chosen for its craftsmanship, design, and lasting value.

• 17:27Karen Kilgariff?

  And with Article's 30-day satisfaction guarantee, you can shop with confidence, knowing that if you're not completely in love with your new furniture, you can easily return it.

• 17:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Plus, Article's customer care team is available seven days a week. I know we're getting into fall and winter, but we live in Los Angeles, so my outdoor furniture is just like the perfect focal point for the pool parties we still end up having, sorry, everyone, when it's like sunny and gorgeous year-round. I sit on my Article patio furniture every morning and have my coffee and watch Cookie Lay in the Sun, and the whole thing is just so peaceful and pretty. Article is offering our listeners $50 off your first purchase of $100 or more.

• 18:05Karen Kilgariff?

  To claim, visit article.com/murder, and the discount will be automatically applied at checkout.

• 18:10Georgia Hardstark?

  That's article.com/murder for $50 off your first purchase of $100 or more. Goodbye.

• 18:17Karen Kilgariff?

  This podcast is brought to you by Squarespace. Turning something you love into a career is exciting. Then come the invoices. Lucky for you, Squarespace can handle the business stuff, so you can focus on your business. From consultations to events and experiences, you can showcase your skills with a customizable website designed to attract clients and grow your business. With Squarespace's collection of cutting-edge design tools, anyone can build a beautiful, professional, online presence that perfectly fits their brand or business. Get paid on time with professional invoices and online payments. Plus, streamline your workflow with built-in appointment scheduling and email marketing tools. Head to Squarespace.com/murder for a free trial. And when you're ready to launch, use offer code MURDER to save 10% off your first purchase

• 19:02Karen Kilgariff?

  of a website or domain. Goodbye. I think you're first this week.

• 19:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Am I first?

• 19:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 19:10Georgia Hardstark?

  All right, settle in, Karen.

• 19:11Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 19:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Get ready to hear about something we've talked about, we've touched on before.

• 19:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 19:20Georgia Hardstark?

  But we never delved into.

• 19:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 19:23Georgia Hardstark?

  The Yosemite Murders. Carrie Stainer. As we know, and we've talked about, Carrie Stainer, here's just like the beginning of the fucked up in this. Carrie Stainer was the big brother of Stephen Stainer, who, if you'll remember, in 1972 was kidnapped and held captive by a child of his own, named Kenneth Parnell. Carrie was the older brother, and he was 11 years old.

• 19:55Karen Kilgariff?

  When it happened?

• 19:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, when it happened. And Stephen, the brother, was held captive more than seven years before escaping. That itself is a fucked up story that you guys should look up.

• 20:04Karen Kilgariff?

  So awful. And this was one of our earliest episodes. We were trying to remember the name of the Made for TV movie, which is called I Know My Name is Stephen.

• 20:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes.

• 20:13Karen Kilgariff?

  And we talked about it for way too long, and we're still getting people that are tweeting at us and sending us emails, saying it was called I Know My Name is Stephen. It's like, that happened six months ago.

• 20:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Well, when we talked about that, that was the first time I found out that these two were brothers, because I knew about Carrie's murders, and I knew about Stephen's kidnapping, but I didn't know they were connected. And that just makes it... It just, it makes, it boggles the mind, you know? In a way that's like more than just when you think of a serial killer and you're like, "How does your brain do that?" And then we have this added piece of fucking childhood trauma in there.

• 20:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Also, it makes me think this poor family.

• 20:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my God, totally.

• 20:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Whoever is left standing, it's just like, how much can some people take?

• 20:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Those parents, man, yeah.

• 21:00Karen Kilgariff?

  It's so much.

• 21:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Well, so the year after Stephen came back, I'm gonna call him Carrie. Carrie's uncle was murdered and Carrie was living with the uncle at the time. But no one considered him as suspect and Carrie would later claim that his uncle molested him.

• 21:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, no.

• 21:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Cut to 1997. Carrie was hired as a handyman at the Cedar Lodge Motel in El Porto, just outside of the Highway 140, Ark Rock entrance to Yosemite National Park. So just outside Yosemite, Cedar Lodge. The weekend before February 1999, he was having these murderous fantasies that had become so intense that he knew he was gonna murder someone. He prepared a murder rape kit containing a rope, a roll of duct tape and a serrated kitchen knife, and later a gun and a camera. And as far as we know, other, besides his uncle, which may or may not have happened, this is his first, these are his first murders.

• 22:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 22:04Georgia Hardstark?

  So on Valentine's Day 1999, Carol's son, who was 42, her daughter Julie, who was 15, and Silvina Paloso, who was 16, were his first victims. Carol was initially leery of Carrie when he knocked on their cabin door saying he had to fix the fan in the bathroom. She talked him through the window and didn't wanna let him in and only did so after he said he'd go get the manager to like confirm it. And she was like, "No, no, no, no, that's okay." You know, the way people do.

• 22:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, when they give you the double confirmation of like, "Oh, don't worry, I'll go do the thing you want me to do."

• 22:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Right, well, if you say that, then...

• 22:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, if you say you're gonna do the thing I want you to do, then you must be legit.

• 22:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Right, then, okay, yeah, all right, I'll do it.

• 22:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Mm-mm.

• 22:49Georgia Hardstark?

  So, but once inside, he pulls out a 22 caliber pistol. He tells them he's desperate, quote, and orders them to lie face down on the bed. He bounds their hands with duct tape, gags them, and then he took the two girls into the bathroom. He strangles Carol with a three foot piece of rope, later saying in his taped confession, "I didn't realize how hard it is to strangle a person. It's not easy, but I had very little feeling. It was like performing a task."

• 23:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, keep that in mind if it's really hard to strangle somebody.

• 23:25Georgia Hardstark?

  It's very hard.

• 23:26Karen Kilgariff?

  So, don't, maybe don't do it.

• 23:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, it's harder than one thinks. So after putting her in the trunk of her rented Pontiac, he goes back to the girls, cuts their clothes off, and then he strangles Silviana in the bathroom. And then he sexually assaults Julie in the family motel, in the motel room, and then wraps her up and ties, he ties her to the bed. He says he felt like he was in control for the first time in his life. And he cleaned up the crime scene so well that it appeared that the women had checked out and left when the, when the people came to check.

• 24:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, no.

• 24:07Georgia Hardstark?

  The staff, when the staff came later to check to see if they were there. They had detected no foul play. Let's see. He even wiped his hair off the bed sheets. And then when the FBI agent asked on tape why he did that, he replied, "I watched the Discovery Channel."

• 24:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, no.

• 24:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Hi, that's all of us.

• 24:29Karen Kilgariff?

  Yep. Oh, yeah. Everyone's getting real smart about forensics together.

• 24:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Mm-hmm.

• 24:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Good and bad.

• 24:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, for sure. So at 4:00 AM, he takes Julie out of the motel and drives her away in the rental car with her, her mother and sis, and friend in the back, in the trunk.

• 24:48Karen Kilgariff?

  So she's still alive?

• 24:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes.

• 24:50Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 24:51Georgia Hardstark?

  And I don't know, I don't think she knows that those two are dead and in the trunk because he kind of, there was two motel rooms that he was going between, and I don't think she ever saw the bodies.

• 24:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, okay. She just thought she was separated.

• 25:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. So she says, he says, "I didn't know where I was going or what I was doing. I just kept driving and driving." And he said about Julie, "She was a very likable girl," he said crying on tape. "She was very calm." So Dawn is approaching, he turns off at Lake Don Pedro and carries Julie up a dirt path to a small clearing overlooking the water. "I told her I wished I could keep her," he said.

• 25:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Blech.

• 25:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Then he sexually assaulted her again. Finally brushed her hair and fanned it out on the ground beneath her head. "I told her I loved her," he said, and then he slit her throat.

• 25:34Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, no.

• 25:35Georgia Hardstark?

  "I didn't want her to suffer the way the other two did."

• 25:37Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, too late, asshole.

• 25:38Georgia Hardstark?

  I know. Like, I think because he choked them manually, he was thinking that it was taking longer, so he slit her throat, thinking he was...

• 25:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, comparatively.

• 25:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, like, thinking he was being compassionate. So he hides her body and he drives the car with the bodies in the trunk as far as he could into the forest. Then he takes a cab back to Yosemite, pays with the fare with the $150 she stole from Carol's purse. Two days later, he returns to the car with a can of gasoline and scratches "We have Sarah" on the hood with a pocket knife. And then he lights the car on fire. Then he drives two hours west and dumped Carol's billfold on a pedestrian street corner to fool the police. This is near where you're from, kind of?

• 26:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Kind of. It's the Central Valley.

• 26:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 26:26Karen Kilgariff?

  We're more on the coast.

• 26:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay. So more than a month later, the remains of Carol's son and Pelosi were found in the burned-out rental car abandoned along a logging road. And six days later, the FBI received an anonymous letter with a crudely drawn map and a message, "We had fun with this one." And following the map, the searchers found Julie. The detectives began interviewing employees at the Cedar Lodge Motel, where the first three victims had been staying just before their deaths. One of the employees was Carrie, but he was not considered a suspect at that point because he has no criminal history and remained calm during the police interview. Fucking psychopath, right?

• 27:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Mm-hmm.

• 27:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my god. FBI agents and local police rounded up a bunch of meth heads and sex offenders and told the tourist and residents that they were confident they had the killers in custody. That, da-da-da-da, okay, so another woman disappears on July 22nd. This is Joey Ruth Armstrong, J O I E., who was 26. She was a pretty redhead who worked for the Yosemite Institute, teaching children about nature. Oh, sweet angel. She worked at the, let's see, da-da-da, was alone in the isolated cabin where she lived when Carrie came upon her. Man, we can't have anything. We can't even live alone.

• 27:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Don't, well, but, man, living in a cabin alone in the woods.

• 27:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, but guys could do it.

• 27:52Karen Kilgariff?

  What?

• 27:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Guys could live alone in a cabin in the woods without getting murdered, for the most part.

• 27:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, and they're guys.

• 27:57Georgia Hardstark?

  That's what I'm saying. It's not fair.

• 27:59Karen Kilgariff?

  No, I know. I'm, I'm more in, I'm still in the mode of, if you're going to live in a cabin in the woods, then pull your gun out anytime someone approaches your home.

• 28:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 28:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Like, I don't know.

• 28:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Or, or, big dogs, big anger scary dogs.

• 28:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Pravmaga, I don't know.

• 28:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, no, I get it.

• 28:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Don't be all chill.

• 28:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. I wouldn't want to live, I like living in a big city where there's just people everywhere on top of you all the time. Uh, so, according to the interview, Carrie confronted Armstrong at gunpoint on the front porch of her cabin.

• 28:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, he had a gun?

• 28:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 28:37Karen Kilgariff?

  I wouldn't help.

• 28:38Georgia Hardstark?

  He told her it was a robbery and forced her into the cabin and covered her mouth and bound her hands behind her back with duct tape. Then he put her in his sports utility vehicle, SUV. I could have just said that.

• 28:48Karen Kilgariff?

  That's an SUV.

• 28:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Thank you. Someone needed an extra word count in their newspaper piece, right?

• 28:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Did you also draw a picture?

• 28:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 28:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Page five is just one big picture.

• 28:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Well, I copied a couple of these sentences, and that was one of them. And now I'm like, that guy just needed a higher word count.

• 29:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, yeah.

• 29:04Georgia Hardstark?

  For sure.

• 29:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 29:05Georgia Hardstark?

  He said, "I lost control of myself and I lost control of her." Um, let's see, he said, "When this started out, I had no intention of cutting her head off," which he later did. Spoiler alert.

• 29:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Man.

• 29:18Georgia Hardstark?

  He says he has no intention of cutting her head off. "I had no intentions of killing her, even the first time I saw her." Yeah, right. "Then I started thinking about it. It was in the house, there were, it was, there was nobody in the house with her. She kept walking out by herself and she watered the plants and it was obvious she was taking off and getting ready to go. That's when I started talking to her." So, the Assistant U.S. Attorney

• 29:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Then, mm, mm, mm, okay. In court papers, it was said, after he had driven a short distance, she dove headfirst out of the wind, through the window, out of the moving truck, and still bound with duct tape, ran through the woods toward the nearby community of Forista to get help.

• 29:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Hell, yeah.

• 29:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Girl, good for you. Fight your fucking last fight.

• 30:00Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 30:01Georgia Hardstark?

  You know? I don't know if that was the right saying. While Carrie ultimately subdued Armstrong, she fought so crazy and with such passion that Stainer wasn't able to do his normal cleanup job, like obsessive cleanup job. He disposed of her beheaded body near, in a nearby stream, and the head turned up 27 feet away. In a hurry, he fled. And a close source-

• 30:26Karen Kilgariff?

  He fled?

• 30:26Georgia Hardstark?

  He fled. No, he fled, Karen. Don't fucking correct me when I say-

• 30:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Let her count.

• 30:32Georgia Hardstark?

  He fled.

• 30:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Sorry to correct you.

• 30:33Georgia Hardstark?

  No, you're right. He fled.

• 30:37Georgia Hardstark?

  A, a close source, close to the investigation. Oh, my God. I think you were pointing that out. No, I did not catch that. Says it was a fight from start to finish. She tried to get away, and she almost did get away. And those several minutes of struggle left behind a lot of evidence. Her determined fight for life denied him the chance to cover up the crime scene, and it led to his capture and undoubtedly saved other lives.

• 31:00Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 31:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Honey.

• 31:01Karen Kilgariff?

  She basically ended it.

• 31:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Yep.

• 31:03Karen Kilgariff?

  By fighting that hard.

• 31:04Georgia Hardstark?

  She fucking fought so hard that he lost it. And like, so in his haste, he left behind footprints, and basically, his car was seen around the, the area. It was really distinctive, the tire tracks as were, well, as, were as well. And so, the vehicle was traced to him, and he was arrested. And during his interrogation, he confessed to all four murders. He pled not guilty by reason of insanity. And it, a doctor testified that he had mild autism, obsessive compulsive disorder, disorder, and paraphilia. At one point during the trial, the judge, Thomas C. Hastings, had to leave the courtroom so he could compose himself in private because the testimony was so fucked up.

• 31:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, no.

• 31:49Georgia Hardstark?

  He returned several minutes later, red-faced and misty-eyed. A judge.

• 31:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 31:55Georgia Hardstark?

  "The circumstances of this case are horrendous and devastating," he said before announcing the sentence. Carrie was found sane and convicted of four counts of first degree murder by a jury in 2001. He was sentenced to death and is still in San Quentin. He claimed after his arrest, so everyone's like, did you, did you get these murderous tendencies because of the stuff with your brother?

• 32:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 32:18Georgia Hardstark?

  And all this like horrible stuff that happened when he was a kid, but he said after his arrest that he had fantasized about murdering women since he was seven years old, long before the abduction of his brother.

• 32:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Wow.

• 32:29Georgia Hardstark?

  So what are the chances like those two traumatic fucked up things are gonna happen in one family?

• 32:34Karen Kilgariff?

  So awful.

• 32:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, and then I went on Facebook and found a hometown murder from a reader. So I'm gonna read it.

• 32:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 32:43Georgia Hardstark?

  So Taylor C. says, "In June of 1999, I was 11 and my brother was eight. My family and I went on a road trip to Yosemite from LA and," all caps, "stayed in the Cedar Lodge Motel." This is for everyone, this is right between the murder of the three women and the murder of the single woman, like months before, like months in between.

• 33:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, man.

• 33:07Georgia Hardstark?

  "Around 9:30 at night, my brother and I were watching Batman and Robin and we get a knock at the door. My mom looks through the peephole, sees some dude and asks what he wants. He says, 'Pizza delivery.' We had already eaten, so we knew no one had ordered a pizza. My mom tells him as much and he insists that we did. My mom tells him that he must have been mistaken, but he keeps insisting. After a certain point, my mom walks away and assumes he did as well. Several minutes of knocking later, my mom calls the hotel management. He must have heard her on the phone because when they showed, when they showed up, he was gone. My mom filed a police report, but nothing really ever came of it. When I, I think when they caught him, she be, she was briefly interviewed, but because she didn't get a good look at him, she wasn't useful in the case.

• 33:50Georgia Hardstark?

  To think, my brother and I could have died while watching Arnold laying down some truly excellent ice puns."

• 33:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Because they were watching, where'd it go? Batman and Robin.

• 34:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 34:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Fucked up shit.

• 34:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Was, was it, did she say it was just her mom? It was her brother and her mom?

• 34:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Her and her brother and her mom.

• 34:11Karen Kilgariff?

  So like he spotted like moms with kids?

• 34:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. He must have targeted them.

• 34:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Man.

• 34:20Georgia Hardstark?

  But why would you do it again in the same? I mean, I guess you didn't get caught the first time.

• 34:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, you didn't get caught.

• 34:25Georgia Hardstark?

  And you're cocky.

• 34:26Karen Kilgariff?

  And he has, still has the fantasy, like he still has, it's the compulsion that he has.

• 34:30Georgia Hardstark?

  And then there's sometimes that thing of like, maybe you wanted to get caught.

• 34:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes. Well, it surprised me when you said that he cried when he was talking about that first girl.

• 34:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Well, when that, when, during the trial, when a lot of the stuff is being, or when he was listening to his own testimony, he would, he would plug up his ears and cry, like he couldn't listen to it. Even though when he was giving that information during the interrogation, he was like, like dead, you know, emotionally dead.

• 34:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Wow.

• 34:59Georgia Hardstark?

  So either that was just for the, just for the show, for the jury.

• 35:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, that's true.

• 35:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Or, you know, maybe he was on anti-psychotics or something at that point and understood.

• 35:11Karen Kilgariff?

  Or if he was like, yeah, if he was like, hadn't processed anything when he was confessing.

• 35:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 35:20Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay, we're back. Georgia, are there any updates for this story?

• 35:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, there are some, you know, and before today's episode, I was reading a bunch of articles about everything. Because I'm so curious personally about any other murders he may have committed that we don't know about. And there, there's just still no information about that whatsoever. So that's kind of, I mean, I just, I feel like it has to be there. But so Carrie Stainer is now 63 years old. He's still incarcerated at San Quentin. And as I mentioned, they are looking into him for five other killings dating back to the eighties. And there's just, including his own uncle, and there's still nothing. And he's never been charged in those cases. And then the FBI later revealed that Carrie Stainer originally planned to murder his then-girlfriend,

• 36:05Georgia Hardstark?

  that, that he was dating at the time of these murders and her two children. And he attempted three separate occasions, but was derailed when he saw another person on the grounds where they lived, leading him to find his first victims at the Cedar Lodge Motel instead. And actually, one of the little girls, one of the daughters of the then-girlfriend, has come forward and talked about him as like the perfect, you know, stepdad type.

• 36:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Wow.

• 36:33Georgia Hardstark?

  And they had no clue whatsoever, of course.

• 36:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Wow.

• 36:36Georgia Hardstark?

  You know, and then her horrible survivor's guilt that she had and just how awfully it affected her life. It's really moving. But yeah, in general, it's just like, just such a fuck story.

• 36:50Karen Kilgariff?

  It's just, it's so dark and so odd, the like, because I think someone in this story, he was arrested and then someone asked him if he got his murderous tendencies because of what happened to his brother. And he was like, no, I've been fantasizing about murder since I was seven years old.

• 37:06Georgia Hardstark?

  So dark.

• 37:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Just terrible.

• 37:09Georgia Hardstark?

  I know. I think there's a really good documentary out there about this too, if you want to check it out. All right. Well, let's get to your wild story. Wild, also heartbreaking. This is Karen's story about Clark Rockefeller.

• 37:29Georgia Hardstark?

  The holidays are coming, which means we'll all be spending more time away from home.

• 37:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Whether you're visiting family or doing something actually fun, you want to know your home is protected while you're away.

• 37:38Georgia Hardstark?

  That's why now is a good time to think about home security with SimpliSafe.

• 37:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Unlike traditional security systems that alert you after a break-in starts, SimpliSafe is designed to help stop intruders before they get inside. These days, you're worried about your house, you're out of town, and then something comes up and you get to look on your phone and SimpliSafe is going to show you not only the video of like, it's a raccoon at your front door, but also that they have staff that's sitting there, they already know. And if it was something different or worse, they would have already been on it.

• 38:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, I really think that's invaluable peace of mind, that just like relying on your neighbors, paying attention is not going to give you. We've partnered with SimpliSafe to offer our listeners their biggest savings of the year, 70% off your new system with SimpliSafe. Professional monitoring when you visit simplysafe.com/mfm.

• 38:24Karen Kilgariff?

  That's simplysafe.com/mfm. And when you order, write in MFM at checkout and it tells them we sent you and it really helps the show.

• 38:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Simply Safe, ahead of crime in real time.

• 38:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Goodbye.

• 38:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Holiday shopping gets a lot easier when you can find something for everyone.

• 38:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Especially when everyone includes yourself.

• 38:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Find thoughtful, high-quality gifts for everyone on your list at Quince.

• 38:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Quince makes beautiful everyday essentials with high-quality materials like Mongolian cashmere, organic cotton, and premium stretch denim. They're the kind of things you love to give as a gift or get yourself.

• 38:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Their 100% Mongolian cashmere sweaters start at just $50 and they also have beautiful 14-karat gold earrings and bracelets that make great gifts.

• 39:05Karen Kilgariff?

  I was so excited when I got home and I got to break out my gray Quince cashmere sweater that I wear constantly around the house. We've been waiting for even the slightest temperature drop so that we could get into sweater weather and finally it's here. And I celebrated with my beautiful Quince cashmere sweater that I think I got the second year we started doing ads for them.

• 39:28Georgia Hardstark?

  They laugh.

• 39:29Karen Kilgariff?

  They do.

• 39:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Give the gift of quality this holiday season.

• 39:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers or go to quince.com.

• 39:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns.

• 39:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Now available in Canada and the UK, too.

• 39:41Georgia Hardstark?

  And when Quince asks where you heard about them, let them know it was My Favorite Murder. It's the best way to support the show.

• 39:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Goodbye. The most annoying thing about dinner is that you have to keep making it.

• 39:54Georgia Hardstark?

  And every single time you have to figure out what you're going to eat.

• 39:57Karen Kilgariff?

  It's time to take some of that work off your plate with Hungry Root.

• 40:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Hungry Root is like having your own personal shopper and nutritionist all wrapped into one. They'll take care of the weekly grocery shopping and recommend groceries and meals tailored to you. It's so nice having Hungry Root just take care of the thinking part of dinner because I swear, like every 10 minutes of my life is what's for dinner? I'm so sick of it. And so I love when you can just open your fridge and be like, okay, great. We have roasted chicken with fries and broccoli from Hungry Root. Or Wagyu ribeye steak with Green Goddess potatoes. Great. Let's go with that. I don't want to think about it. That sounds amazing and it's easy.

• 40:35Karen Kilgariff?

  It's easy and it's good for you. You're not just ordering another pizza. You're gonna love Hungry Root.

• 40:40Georgia Hardstark?

  For a love at a time, get 40% off your first order, plus get a free item in every box for life.

• 40:44Karen Kilgariff?

  Go to hungryroot.com/mfm and use code MFM.

• 40:48Georgia Hardstark?

  That's hungryroot.com/mfm, code MFM to get 40% off your first box and a free item of your choice for life.

• 40:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Goodbye.

• 40:58Karen Kilgariff?

  All right, are you ready to transition?

• 41:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Always.

• 41:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Because mine, I actually, this, I was watching this documentary this weekend about this guy that I'm gonna talk about, and it's very entertaining, even though he is also a murderer.

• 41:16Karen Kilgariff?

  He is more a con man, which I actually kind of adore.

• 41:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Like a mobster who won't kill women and children?

• 41:25Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 41:25Georgia Hardstark?

  And you're like, you know what?

• 41:27Karen Kilgariff?

  You know, when you can like pick and choose the bad, like this is the kind that I like.

• 41:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 41:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Where, for the most part, now, he is a borderline personality, I think, extreme narcissist. They're, they have all kinds of, you know, the psychiatrist talked about what he was in court. But he, basically what it was, is he is a guy who grew up in Germany as a very awkward teen. In this documentary, they talk about how he, when all their friends would go to like to the lake every summer, he would always go, but he would be fully dressed up and he would never, they never saw him in a bathing suit.

• 42:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Because it's Hitler?

• 42:09Karen Kilgariff?

  That man's name was Mr. Adolf Marie Hitler.

• 42:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Noah, this was, uh, well, he was born Christian Karl Gerhard Schreiter.

• 42:25Karen Kilgariff?

  Um, but he had many names in his long con career. He also went by the name Chris Chichester, Chris Crowe, uh, Chip Smith, and finally Clark Rockefeller, heir to the Rockefeller.

• 42:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh.

• 42:41Karen Kilgariff?

  You know this guy?

• 42:42Georgia Hardstark?

  What's the documentary called?

• 42:43Karen Kilgariff?

  It's called My Friend Rockefeller.

• 42:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, I never got through it. So tell me everything.

• 42:48Karen Kilgariff?

  It is here, it's worth getting to the part where Clark Rockefeller, or Chris Chichester, or Chip Smith, or, uh, Chris Crowe is my favorite. Cause he, when he was Chris Crowe, he claimed to be a relative of Cameron Crowe. He, he does all these lies that are just small enough. They're big enough to impress you, but small enough to be believable.

• 43:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 43:13Karen Kilgariff?

  And it is masterful. And he's a really legitimately IQ style, intelligent person. But he also doesn't really have any morals. So most of the time, everything's fine, cause he's just trying to get money and like work for himself and get what he wants, but.

• 43:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Fair enough. And doesn't he make like everyone happy around him too? Like everyone thinks he's so funny and cool.

• 43:35Karen Kilgariff?

  For a little while.

• 43:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 43:36Karen Kilgariff?

  I think the limit's two years that people are happy around this guy. Then he starts getting real irritating and that's when he gets kicked out of houses, fired from jobs, what have you. But, uh, so this is basically how it goes. He grows up as an awkward teen in Germany. He has a group of friends and in the documentary, the friends get interviewed. And what I loved is one of the friends goes, I love that he tricked all those rich Americans. And that part made me go, oh yeah, that's true. He really did get away with huge, huge lies for a really long time.

• 44:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 44:09Karen Kilgariff?

  So here's basically how it went. Um, he also claimed to be, these are all the things he claimed to be. An actor, a producer, a director, an art collector, a physicist, a ship's captain, a negotiator of international debt agreements, and an English aristocrat.

• 44:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Gee whiz.

• 44:26Karen Kilgariff?

  He did it all. So, um, when he was 17, he met an American couple who had pulled off and asked him for directions. On the side of the road and he met them, got their names. And then when he wanted to go to America, when he was 17, he used their names on the like entrance documents to say that they had invited him there and that he was going to go live with them.

• 44:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Smart.

• 44:52Karen Kilgariff?

  This was a one-off meeting on like the side of the road and those people are also in this documentary.

• 44:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, yeah.

• 44:57Karen Kilgariff?

  It's pretty awesome. So he comes to the United States and he goes to Meriden, Connecticut, and he finds the family of a backpacker he met once on a train in Germany.

• 45:09Georgia Hardstark?

  I can't even talk to the person sitting next to me on an airplane.

• 45:12Karen Kilgariff?

  I have a hard time talking to people I've known for 20 years.

• 45:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 45:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Much less asking people if you can go stay at their parents' house.

• 45:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my God. I asked Vince if I can like eat some of his chips because I feel bad about it. I can't imagine me like, can I stay at your place we met once?

• 45:29Karen Kilgariff?

  And just weird and uncomfortable.

• 45:31Georgia Hardstark?

  No.

• 45:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Um, okay, so he explains to them that he is from a very wealthy German family and that he is in America, like he's a foreign exchange student and can he stay with them because he's going to be going to the local high school. Basically, he starts going to high school in Connecticut and basically his whole thing is he wants to be American. He wants to blend in. He becomes obsessed with Gilligan's Island and he starts talking like Thurston Halberth.

• 46:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, that's cool.

• 46:01Karen Kilgariff?

  And when he appears in this documentary, that's who he's talking like. And it wasn't until I was reading this article where they mentioned this specifically where I started laughing.

• 46:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Because they don't talk about him in the documentary?

• 46:12Karen Kilgariff?

  He does talk about it, but they talk about it like it's an inside. He goes, the, um, the guy who makes the documentary, who was friends with him, brings it up, but they don't like. He ba- the, um, Clark Rockefeller like kind of brushes it off like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 46:30Georgia Hardstark?

  But he totally sounds like him.

• 46:32Karen Kilgariff?

  But he's talking like this.

• 46:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my God, that's perfect.

• 46:35Karen Kilgariff?

  And he is basically saying. But it's the funniest, but also it's that thing where I don't like to usually, I don't like to listen to killers, especially, I never watch anything where the serial killer's talking. I don't give a fuck what that guy has to say.

• 46:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 46:51Karen Kilgariff?

  He's evil. This guy's different, though, because he's a con man first.

• 46:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 46:56Karen Kilgariff?

  And foremost.

• 46:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 46:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Even though, yes, he's an, he's a bad person, killer, all of that, but he is a fascinating mind because he was smart enough to like, in, as a teen, con all these people. So he goes, he goes to this high school, um, he, uh, he decides that he wants to be an actor, so he heads west. But he makes it as far as Wisconsin and he decides he's gonna go to the University of Wisconsin at Milwaukee. So, once he's there, um, he decides he needs to, he's been in, in the United States long enough where he needs a green card, basically, and he's becoming a citizen.

• 47:37Karen Kilgariff?

  So he decides he's gonna marry a local 22-year-old woman, um, who he explains to her that he, he needs the green card, because if he gets sent back to Germany, he will have to fight in the Cold War on the Russian front.

• 47:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Hmm.

• 47:55Karen Kilgariff?

  Now, if you knew anything about anything, I mean, and I barely know anything about anything, but when I read that, I was like, hey, wait a second. Pretty sure the Cold War didn't have a front.

• 48:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 48:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Because the Cold War was all about tensions.

• 48:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 48:10Karen Kilgariff?

  And basically threats.

• 48:11Georgia Hardstark?

  There's no such thing as.

• 48:13Karen Kilgariff?

  There was no Russian front in the Cold War.

• 48:15Georgia Hardstark?

  No.

• 48:15Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, there were places to go, there were bad things happening, definitely. He, if the idea was that he was gonna get sent back to like, East Berlin and have to spy on his neighbors, yes, horrible, but there was no Russian front.

• 48:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Or be a prisoner of war because of, or not a prisoner of war, of a, accused of war crimes or something like that.

• 48:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Like a political prisoner, yeah. But there was no, the Russian front was from World War II.

• 48:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 48:37Karen Kilgariff?

  That was a bad, bad place to be.

• 48:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Sure.

• 48:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Anyway, she fell for it and married him, and the next day, he left for California.

• 48:47Karen Kilgariff?

  So I was like, was she, was she in agreement and fine with it? But then later I read that she filed for divorce in 1992, 11 years later.

• 48:59Georgia Hardstark?

  What? Maybe she was like, needed him, she's like a lesbian and like needed to appease her family.

• 49:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Cover story?

• 49:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 49:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, I didn't even think about that. I was, I immediately wrote the story of she was just heartbroken and like pining in Milwaukee.

• 49:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh.

• 49:13Karen Kilgariff?

  For this fabulous European that bailed on her the day after, because it said, um, their wedding. So it's, it sounded like it wasn't just the basics, like city hall signs and papers.

• 49:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Like they had a wedding.

• 49:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, no.

• 49:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Um, sad.

• 49:29Karen Kilgariff?

  A little crazy. All right. So he, or maybe she like, is like me and is just bad about paperwork and doesn't get shit done in time. She's like, oh, that's right. I have to get divorced.

• 49:40Georgia Hardstark?

  I'll do it when I meet someone else.

• 49:41Karen Kilgariff?

  I'll do it. And I have good reason that she's on Tinder swiping, swiping, swiping.

• 49:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Come on.

• 49:47Karen Kilgariff?

  So he heads out to California. Now this is, it's so fascinating. He goes to San Marino. Now, I don't know if you've ever been to Huntington Gardens. Oh, you're from down here. You know. San Marino is like, so Pasadena is a rich area that very few people I know live in. Cause it's like old money rich, you know, you have to live out of the city. San Marino is richer than Pasadena.

• 50:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 50:10Karen Kilgariff?

  It's the, it's the city nestled up right next to Pasadena where all the mansions are.

• 50:15Georgia Hardstark?

  And it's gorgeous.

• 50:16Karen Kilgariff?

  It's crazy. So this is a guy who's in his early twenties, like college age. He's moving to LA to be an actor and he moves to San Marino to get, so it doesn't make sense.

• 50:27Georgia Hardstark?

  No.

• 50:27Karen Kilgariff?

  San Marino, I looked it up. It's, it was rated more expensive than Beverly Hills.

• 50:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Holy shit.

• 50:35Karen Kilgariff?

  And Malibu.

• 50:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh my god.

• 50:37Karen Kilgariff?

  To live in. So it just is nonsensical for like a young actor type to live there.

• 50:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Sure.

• 50:42Karen Kilgariff?

  But that's, that's what he was about. He was like a total, he was Thurston Howell the third. And he was trying to go become that person in like a very real way.

• 50:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 50:52Karen Kilgariff?

  So he got, he rented the guest house that was, um, in one of the least nice houses in all of San Marino. There was, there is actually a slightly shabby part, which is just basically not million dollar homes. And, um, in one of those houses, a woman named Dee Dee Sohas, um,

• 51:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Had a guest house on her property. Dee Dee reportedly was an alcoholic who was always dressed in a housecoat.

• 51:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Uh, sounds like.

• 51:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Hey, sister. High five.

• 51:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 51:28Karen Kilgariff?

  And Dee Dee had a son named John, who was five foot five, super into Dungeons and Dragons, Coke bottle glasses, and was married to a woman named Linda, who was six, a six foot tall redhead.

• 51:39Georgia Hardstark?

  They sound like fucking our type of people.

• 51:42Karen Kilgariff?

  They are, they are our type of people. They lived in, like, the house adjacent, so it was almost like this little compound. And Clark Rockefeller, at the time, his name was, let's see, his name here was Christopher Chichester.

• 51:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 51:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Which is the dumbest made up name of all time.

• 52:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Chichester, that sounds like when I said, what was it, Nancy, Saint Nancy?

• 52:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Nancy, Saint Stacy.

• 52:07Georgia Hardstark?

  That's, that wasn't as bad as Chichester.

• 52:09Karen Kilgariff?

  That's not as bad as Chris Chichester.

• 52:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 52:12Karen Kilgariff?

  Just.

• 52:12Georgia Hardstark?

  It's like you stuttered three times.

• 52:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, throw more C's in there, you dork. So, okay. So he shows up in San Marino, he get, he's, he's, he's charming everybody. And what he tells them is that not only is he a computer expert, a film producer and a stockbroker, he is also the nephew of Lord Mountbatten. So what I kind of do like about this all is all the people that get tricked by this guy are people who are label horrors and status horrors. So anyone that's like.

• 52:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Impressed by.

• 52:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Impressed by someone talking like Thurston Howell III and saying, I'm, I'm related to Lord, Lord Mountbatten.

• 52:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 52:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Where, like, in my family, if you said that, it'd be like, well, go do the dishes. It'd be like, really, Lord Mountbatten? Can you go get some more beer out of the downstairs refrigerator?

• 53:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 53:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Um, but it's the, it's a lot of people, and especially that's why he was going to places like San Marino. You go to places where people work in those worlds, and those are the people that are most impressed by. You know, you're all rich. Well, I'm a blue blood. Well, I'm a royal. I'm actually royalty.

• 53:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 53:20Karen Kilgariff?

  The someone that can come in and beat them at their own game. What's more interesting than that? So, uh, the locals said he was a whiz at everything. He, uh, proved especially popular with the women who were very charmed by his royal bloodline and his courtly manners. One of the women said he knew everything about everything and he was just fabulous.

• 53:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 53:41Karen Kilgariff?

  So it's not just a, an act. He's really getting away with it and he was very, very smart.

• 53:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Sounds like it.

• 53:48Karen Kilgariff?

  So, um, so in 1985, tragedy strikes. This is two years after Chris moves into, um, the Soh, the Sohass's, you know, house. Dee Dee's son Jonathan and his wife Linda go missing without a trace.

• 54:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Hmm.

• 54:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Um, Chris tells everybody that they told him that they were going to go to Europe. Um, the family got a postcard from France, supposedly from the couple after the disappearance, but its authenticity has been questioned.

• 54:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Mm-hmm.

• 54:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Um, and so, soon after they disappear, Dee Dee Sohass disinherited her son, who was beloved to her up until that point. Um, the police think that she was convinced that he had abandoned her.

• 54:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, no.

• 54:38Karen Kilgariff?

  And after, when Dee Dee died, they found that a hundred and eighty thousand dollars of her estate had been looted. Her entire estate, sorry. Her entire estate was worth a hundred and eighty thousand dollars and all of it had been taken.

• 54:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, that's so sad.

• 54:52Karen Kilgariff?

  So.

• 54:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Dungeons and Dragons.

• 54:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Dungeons and Dragons. Um, in the late, I just say that like it's, I mean something by it.

• 55:00Georgia Hardstark?

  I know, I do too.

• 55:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Dungeons and Dragons.

• 55:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 55:02Karen Kilgariff?

  But we know what we mean. In the late eighties, police pull Christopher Chichester over in Greenwich, Connecticut.

• 55:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Mm-hmm.

• 55:12Karen Kilgariff?

  He's driving Jonathan Sohass's truck.

• 55:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Uh-oh.

• 55:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Um.

• 55:18Karen Kilgariff?

  The police, he leaves the area before police can interview him. I don't know what that means if he's like, oh, well, thanks, everybody. It was thanks for pulling me over. Great to see you and just drives away. I'm not sure. Or if they meant

• 55:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Like come to the

• 55:31Karen Kilgariff?

  The neighborhood.

• 55:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Sounds like the neighborhood, right?

• 55:34Karen Kilgariff?

  It's just weird because if you've got him there and he's driving. So maybe they just had the information that it was that truck and they didn't put it together till later.

• 55:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 55:43Karen Kilgariff?

  But I looked it up Greenwich. Um, in the year 2000 Greenwich was the third wealthiest town in Connecticut. So he's just going east coast. Now he's going to do this on the east coast.

• 55:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Big money.

• 55:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. So he rents a post office box in Greenwich under the name Christopher C. Crow. C, C, C. He loves those C's.

• 56:04Georgia Hardstark?

  He does.

• 56:05Karen Kilgariff?

  He literally walked into the Indian Harbor Yacht Club like he owned the place.

• 56:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my God.

• 56:10Karen Kilgariff?

  So there, this is a rich town that has a yacht club. And he rolled up on in. Here's how he was described. He looked like he walked out of a magazine. He always had his Burberry winter coat, Burberry umbrella, very fine cotton button down white shirts with C, C, C monogrammed on the pockets for Christopher Chichester Crow. Always pristine, always perfect.

• 56:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Uh, sounds like what you wear whenever you go out.

• 56:37Karen Kilgariff?

  Yep. I, I do have my button down K, L, K shirt on now.

• 56:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Bye.

• 56:43Karen Kilgariff?

  I'm so hot. Um, someone else said, he's talking to you as if he's smarter, wealthier, more connected, more everything than you, no matter who you are.

• 56:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Fuck you.

• 56:53Karen Kilgariff?

  So he's, he's just playing the rich game and beating them at the rich game.

• 56:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 56:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Because I think Thurston Howell III was the richest man on the planet. So if that's who he is, he is right.

• 57:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 57:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Um, so he sleeps with a woman. He, so that basically his inn in Greenwich was this yacht club.

• 57:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 57:13Karen Kilgariff?

  He's, he starts sleeping with a woman who ends up getting him this really high level job. Um, in town at a broker dealer firm. I don't know what that is.

• 57:24Georgia Hardstark?

  I don't either.

• 57:24Karen Kilgariff?

  I cut my eyes were skipping over the part where it got into like finance. But basically a huge finance job.

• 57:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 57:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Um, you have to take two tests to do this job. One called the series seven and one calls the uh series sixty-three. There's seven, it's seven hours of questions.

• 57:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Holy shit.

• 57:43Karen Kilgariff?

  And he passed it.

• 57:44Georgia Hardstark?

  What the shit?

• 57:45Karen Kilgariff?

  So he's not, he's a very, very, very intelligent person. So now you know the brain that's being applied to conning people.

• 57:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, fair.

• 57:54Karen Kilgariff?

  A memorizer, an absorber of personalities and information and the kind of person that will tell you the perfect lie.

• 58:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 58:00Karen Kilgariff?

  He's Lord Mountbatten's nephew. He's not anybody's son. He's not, there's nothing direct. Um, so, alright, so he's, he stays at this job for two years.

• 58:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh my god.

• 58:16Karen Kilgariff?

  But he's super, um, people don't, at first it's interesting that they have this royalty working there. After two years, they're sick of hearing him talk. And he did the ultimate uh wrong move, which was the boss, the guy that hired him, who was the president of the company, wanted to access his own computer. And Chris wouldn't tell him how to do it. Because he thought, if I'm the only one that knows how to do it and you don't know,

• 58:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh.

• 58:43Karen Kilgariff?

  I will never get fired. Instead, the guy in charge was like, get the fuck out of here. And somebody else is gonna teach me how to get into my computer.

• 58:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Weird.

• 58:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, from there, he gets a better job.

• 58:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh my god.

• 58:55Karen Kilgariff?

  So he gets fired from that job and then he gets hired at a place called Nico. I don't, it, it's another one of these like Wall Street jobs.

• 59:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, Karen, this is not our universe.

• 59:05Karen Kilgariff?

  It, I'm not interested in it. I don't like it.

• 59:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Nope.

• 59:09Karen Kilgariff?

  I don't care.

• 59:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 59:10Karen Kilgariff?

  But essentially, he does great there too for a couple of years. But he, a couple of people were on to him, this is all in the documentary. Because he would ask, he'd ask a question like, um, do you, have you ever sold one of these? And the guy that he asked the question to is in the documentary, who's like, that'd be like asking a dentist, do you know what a bike cusp is? Like, it's one of the basics. So that guy was like, I was pretty sure something was going on.

• 59:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 59:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Um, and then, of course, by the end, everyone's just, he's bragging and he's, you know, an asshole to everybody. Um, so he gets fired from there. Uh.

• 59:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Then um, he goes to another company, a bigger company. So he gets a better job. Each firing, he just is failing upwards. Um, but this is the job where they finally uh, do a background check. Oh no, sorry. Two years after he got dismissed from the first place, they finally look him up. They they run his social security number and the social security number that he gave was David Berkowitz's, the son of Sam.

• 1:00:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Shut the fuck up. That is the coolest part.

• 1:00:18Karen Kilgariff?

  It's amazing. So it's kind of like saying, if you check my shit, go fuck yourself. But no one ever did until after he left.

• 1:00:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay, so on the-

• 1:00:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Holy shit, that's cool.

• 1:00:28Karen Kilgariff?

  It's crazy. So on this fir- the third job,

• 1:00:33Karen Kilgariff?

  um, someone at the third job finally looks into his background while he still works there and finds out that he is a person of interest in a missing persons case in California.

• 1:00:43Georgia Hardstark?

  How did that guy feel when he saw that?

• 1:00:46Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, probably nervous, but stoked.

• 1:00:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, excited.

• 1:00:50Karen Kilgariff?

  And then hungry because it was right before lunch. Who knows? Um, so the Greenwich Police and the Connecticut State Police show up at this job with that day Christopher Chitchester, no, sorry, Christopher Crow now. Christopher Crow didn't show up for work that day because he was on to them. He knew, but he called in to say he needed time off because his parents had been kidnapped in either Pakistan or Japan.

• 1:01:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, but just say you don't feel well.

• 1:01:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, and also that's where your lies are getting a bit big.

• 1:01:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Like, pick one.

• 1:01:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:24Karen Kilgariff?

  It's Pakistan.

• 1:01:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. Or you have a hangover.

• 1:01:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, or you're, yeah, you you broke one of your teeth and you're out for a couple of days. Your bicuspid. How about your bicuspid?

• 1:01:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Take one.

• 1:01:36Karen Kilgariff?

  So he disappears from Greenwich, Connecticut, and he reappears in New York City in 1992. And where does he go? Where did John List go when he had to start all over in a new town?

• 1:01:48Georgia Hardstark?

  The church.

• 1:01:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Church. Church.

• 1:01:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Church.

• 1:01:51Karen Kilgariff?

  You show, say with me church.

• 1:01:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Church.

• 1:01:53Karen Kilgariff?

  You show up at church-

• 1:01:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 1:01:55Karen Kilgariff?

  With your song and dance.

• 1:01:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:57Karen Kilgariff?

  And you have a built in community of people who are going to trust you.

• 1:02:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 1:02:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Keep your eyes peeled, churchies. So he rolls up, this is now when he is being-

• 1:02:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Keep your eyes peeled, church.

• 1:02:12Karen Kilgariff?

  I say that as if that's something that's important.

• 1:02:17Karen Kilgariff?

  This is now when he's become Clark Rockefeller. So he's in New York City and he's introducing himself as a Rockefeller.

• 1:02:23Georgia Hardstark?

  That seems like something you'd want to introduce yourself anywhere but in New York City.

• 1:02:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, but here's the thing. He knows the difference. So he specifies to these people at this church that he is from the Percy Rockefeller side, not John Dee. John Dee is the one, he's crazy rich. Percy still is super rich, but not John Dee level. So he, he always goes right under.

• 1:02:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:46Karen Kilgariff?

  You know, he goes in with the claim that's right.

• 1:02:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Believable enough.

• 1:02:50Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. We're still talking millions of dollars. Crazy old American blue blood money.

• 1:02:56Georgia Hardstark?

  It still would impress people like my mom. Oh, he's a Rockefeller, you know?

• 1:03:00Karen Kilgariff?

  My grandmother used to say, like, she'd go, pick that penny up off the floor. We're not the Rockefellers.

• 1:03:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 1:03:06Karen Kilgariff?

  That was like a total grandma saying.

• 1:03:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:08Karen Kilgariff?

  She also said a lot of racist stuff that I won't repeat.

• 1:03:12Georgia Hardstark?

  So don't listen to her.

• 1:03:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Um, she was a good person at heart. It was just, it was the times. Make America great again. All right.

• 1:03:21Karen Kilgariff?

  He claimed to have gone to Yale, like when he was 14. He had a Yale scarf with the blue stripes. He said he had one of the J boats from his grandparents, which was a classic 30s sailing yacht.

• 1:03:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, I do too.

• 1:03:34Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, don't we all?

• 1:03:37Karen Kilgariff?

  So basically what he learned is that if you joined private clubs in a big city, and they're all like, clubs no one's ever even heard of, the low dose and stuff like that, where I'm like, oh, yeah, I'm clearly as working class as you can get.

• 1:03:54Georgia Hardstark?

  We'll never be.

• 1:03:55Karen Kilgariff?

  No, no more clothes.

• 1:03:56Georgia Hardstark?

  We'll never be asked to.

• 1:03:58Karen Kilgariff?

  No, they're not going to ask us.

• 1:04:00Georgia Hardstark?

  No.

• 1:04:00Karen Kilgariff?

  I don't think so. But this is where the Vanderbelts and the Whitneys and the Roosevelts and the Rockefellers, they've all been socializing since the 1800s. So he learns the kind of language of private clubs and those people. And then all of his lies become believable because he's speaking their language.

• 1:04:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 1:04:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Saying the stupid shit that they all say to each other over cucumber sandwiches.

• 1:04:22Georgia Hardstark?

  What do they say? I wonder?

• 1:04:23Karen Kilgariff?

  What? It's all whispering about cash.

• 1:04:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Right?

• 1:04:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Transactions. Lots of trend words.

• 1:04:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:29Georgia Hardstark?

  That transaction.

• 1:04:29Karen Kilgariff?

  Bonds.

• 1:04:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Bonds.

• 1:04:31Karen Kilgariff?

  War bonds.

• 1:04:31Georgia Hardstark?

  War bonds. They're polio.

• 1:04:34Karen Kilgariff?

  Polo?

• 1:04:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Polio. Polo.

• 1:04:39Georgia Hardstark?

  I meant polio. I meant polio.

• 1:04:42Karen Kilgariff?

  You meant the disease.

• 1:04:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, cuz Roosevelt had that.

• 1:04:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, you gotta talk about it.

• 1:04:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 1:04:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Um.

• 1:04:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Where am I?

• 1:04:49Karen Kilgariff?

  So.

• 1:04:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, sorry, I lost my place and I'm hallucinating from the heat.

• 1:04:56Georgia Hardstark?

  I'm so sorry it's so loud here.

• 1:04:58Karen Kilgariff?

  There's nothing you can do. So, oh, I was on the totally wrong page. I tried to do that scrolling thing that I do. All right, so.

• 1:05:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay, so he marry, in 1995, he marries a woman that he met through St. Thomas Church, this church that he went to. And she was a Harvard MBA who rose to be one of the youngest partners in history at McKinsey. I don't know what that is. Law firm?

• 1:05:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Mm, probably.

• 1:05:26Karen Kilgariff?

  She had a $2 million salary. She was like legendary businesswoman.

• 1:05:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Fuck, man.

• 1:05:30Karen Kilgariff?

  He meets her at church.

• 1:05:34Karen Kilgariff?

  They hit it off and they get married. He has a way with the ladies.

• 1:05:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:40Karen Kilgariff?

  He explains to her that none of his family is gonna be at the wedding because there'd been an argument and he had disinvited all of them. So he has no family there.

• 1:05:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Red flag.

• 1:05:52Karen Kilgariff?

  But he marries into her family and they have a child named Ray, which I actually like that name for a girl.

• 1:05:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Ray.

• 1:06:00Karen Kilgariff?

  Ray, R E I G H.

• 1:06:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh. That's cute.

• 1:06:03Karen Kilgariff?

  He nicknamed her Schnucks.

• 1:06:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Schnucks.

• 1:06:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Which may have been something Thurston How the Third called his wife.

• 1:06:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Schnucks, yeah.

• 1:06:14Karen Kilgariff?

  He'd insisted on raising her and educating her himself.

• 1:06:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Uh, I would love to meet and talk to her.

• 1:06:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my God, she's the coolest.

• 1:06:22Karen Kilgariff?

  So, anyway, they ultimately get divorced and she, the wife, has to pay him $800,000 in alimony. And he won the the white, the, but she, she, sorry, she won the right to raise Ray to in London. So in 2008, a court supervised visit in Boston, Rockefeller kidnaps Ray.

• 1:06:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, no.

• 1:06:50Karen Kilgariff?

  So she's seven years old. Um, there, he's meeting up with Ray and the, um, court appointed, like, social worker, basically. And he runs up, pushes that woman over, grabs the little girl, and jumps into a car and drives away.

• 1:07:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, no.

• 1:07:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Um, the, the social worker actually ran after and grabbed on to the back bumper of the car for like, a little bit, trying to do something about it.

• 1:07:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my god.

• 1:07:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Um, but don't worry, he was, he lived for this little girl. He just wanted her in his life. He wasn't gonna harm her in any way.

• 1:07:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, but you don't even know that.

• 1:07:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Everyone in this documentary says it. Like, they would never, he worshipped her. And it, and he, he, she was everything to him.

• 1:07:34Georgia Hardstark?

  It's nuts.

• 1:07:35Karen Kilgariff?

  And they, and he got caught two weeks later.

• 1:07:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 1:07:37Karen Kilgariff?

  So, the, but there was, he, he had set up a new identity, um, in Baltimore. That's where he was gonna become Chip Smith, a professional yacht captain and catamaran designer. But he, he got caught immediately. He was, um, in 2009, he was convicted and sentenced to four to five years for abducting his daughter, and two to three years for the assault on the social worker, who did get in, uh, injured by that SUV that he had waiting. But, um, we'll circle back around now, because in 1994, um, the new owners of the So Hus's

• 1:08:21Karen Kilgariff?

  house in San Marino were digging to build a new pool.

• 1:08:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Uh-oh.

• 1:08:26Karen Kilgariff?

  And they found two bodies.

• 1:08:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, no.

• 1:08:29Karen Kilgariff?

  Deep, deep underneath the ground in the backyard of the So Hus's house. And, um, it was, the family members said the bones matched Jonathan So Hus's general description, but he was adopted. So they, they couldn't do a family DNA match. Um.

• 1:08:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, so she adopts this kid. And he's this like great nerd and she loves him so much.

• 1:08:55Karen Kilgariff?

  But she's kind of a loser.

• 1:08:57Georgia Hardstark?

  And then he takes.

• 1:08:58Karen Kilgariff?

  But then he finds love.

• 1:08:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:00Karen Kilgariff?

  In a six foot redhead.

• 1:09:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh.

• 1:09:03Karen Kilgariff?

  And they're kind of this mismatched couple that are making it happen and then.

• 1:09:08Georgia Hardstark?

  She thinks he just leaves her.

• 1:09:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 1:09:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, that's the saddest thing I've ever heard.

• 1:09:13Karen Kilgariff?

  The, the, so forensic evidence showed that the victim, who is Jonathan, had been struck in the head two times with a rounded blunt object, then stabbed six times.

• 1:09:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Holy shit.

• 1:09:25Karen Kilgariff?

  His body had been cut into three parts and the body parts had been put into bookbags from the University of Wisconsin.

• 1:09:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Fuck.

• 1:09:33Karen Kilgariff?

  And from USC where, um, Chris.

• 1:09:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Chenchy.

• 1:09:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Clark. All these people, he had actually sat in on film classes, never registered as a student, but he used to go to USC and go to classes. He just wasn't actually a student there. And so, um, that circumstantial evidence, combined with the fact that he was arrested driving Jonathan's truck.

• 1:09:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Greenwich, uh, basically convicted him of murder. Um, sorry, they, there was only one body buried in the backyard.

• 1:10:06Georgia Hardstark?

  No.

• 1:10:06Karen Kilgariff?

  They never found Linda.

• 1:10:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Linda.

• 1:10:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Um.

• 1:10:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Where do you think she is?

• 1:10:11Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, the police suspect that Clark had an affair with Linda.

• 1:10:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, no.

• 1:10:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Because basically he, Clark thought he was in with Dee Dee and thought that he was going to get her money and get the house and be in San Marino and like have his life.

• 1:10:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:27Karen Kilgariff?

  And then Jonathan and Linda were basically what were standing in the way of that.

• 1:10:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:32Karen Kilgariff?

  And I think, and he thought, you know, I'll get, this is just this crazy old drunk lady.

• 1:10:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:38Karen Kilgariff?

  I'm going to get her to sign everything over to me and then I'm going to have the life I want. And then Linda and Jonathan are just like, you need to move out of here. And basically that's where it started. So he, the theory is that he tried to break them up as a couple.

• 1:10:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:10:52Karen Kilgariff?

  And then he murdered Jonathan.

• 1:10:54Georgia Hardstark?

  So Linda might be. Out in the world.

• 1:10:57Karen Kilgariff?

  They think she's dead.

• 1:10:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, she's dead.

• 1:10:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, they just think that he brought the body somewhere else.

• 1:11:02Georgia Hardstark?

  That's so sad.

• 1:11:03Karen Kilgariff?

  I believe.

• 1:11:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Um, he was charged with Jonathan's murder. Uh, and he, and the trial was in April of 2013 and he was convicted of first degree murder. Uh, and he's now in some weird jail in, Ironwood Jail in Blythe, California.

• 1:11:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow, can I see a photo of him?

• 1:11:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:25Georgia Hardstark?

  I want to see him like a mug shot.

• 1:11:28Karen Kilgariff?

  It's so funny because when they talk about like that he's good looking and stuff or that he had a way with the ladies.

• 1:11:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Nope.

• 1:11:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Well.

• 1:11:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Let's see, is he hot?

• 1:11:37Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, to each his own.

• 1:11:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my God, he's like a nerd.

• 1:11:42Karen Kilgariff?

  He's, well, and also when you see him talking, it's even worse.

• 1:11:45Georgia Hardstark?

  He's got no mouth.

• 1:11:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Because he kind of talks like this. It's like somebody in a bad, like mustard commercial where you're like, what, why would you talk like that?

• 1:11:54Georgia Hardstark?

  He looks like he is a character in The Simpsons.

• 1:11:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Like, oh no, where's his mouth?

• 1:11:59Karen Kilgariff?

  He's just kind of, um, you know, I'm sure he was insecure as a teen.

• 1:12:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Sure.

• 1:12:05Karen Kilgariff?

  And all of that, plus being really smart, you know?

• 1:12:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Just made up for.

• 1:12:11Georgia Hardstark?

  I don't see him being a ladies man, but good for him.

• 1:12:14Karen Kilgariff?

  It's all in the brains, brains, brains.

• 1:12:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Brains, brains, brains.

• 1:12:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Brains. We should thank Steven.

• 1:12:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, thank you, Steven.

• 1:12:20Karen Kilgariff?

  Our beautiful engineer who gave us, um, microphone stands.

• 1:12:24Speaker 04

  They're beautiful.

• 1:12:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Thank you.

• 1:12:25Karen Kilgariff?

  They really are gorgeous.

• 1:12:26Georgia Hardstark?

  You've been killing it. We appreciate it.

• 1:12:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Thank you for all your help.

• 1:12:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Elvis is sitting there waiting.

• 1:12:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Elvis, it's your big chance. Okay.

• 1:12:31Speaker 04

  Wait, can we, can we try and do this?

• 1:12:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Do we do it before or after we say? Elvis, you want a cookie?

• 1:12:38Georgia Hardstark?

  You want a cookie?

• 1:12:41Speaker 04

  He wants your microphone.

• 1:12:43Karen Kilgariff?

  We usually do it after because stay sexy.

• 1:12:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Don't get murdered.

• 1:12:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, we're back, Karen. Any updates?

• 1:12:54Karen Kilgariff?

  There are updates. I recently listened to a podcast about this story. I can't, it was like in one of those anthology podcasts. It was like a bunch of, it was almost like, here's a bunch of rich crimes or whatever. And then it was, this guy is like, he isn't really rich, but it is.

• 1:13:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:12Karen Kilgariff?

  So I just recently kind of revisited this and it just like, God, this is, it's just insane. So after numerous denied appeals, Clark Rockefeller quote unquote, was transferred to San Quentin in December of 2016. And so he's there now. He stays busy painting and he's journalist for the San Quentin News. So with good time credits, he'll be eligible for parole in December of 2029. He'll be 68 years old if he gets paroled then. And his daughter Rae has since changed her name and she lives a private life, which is good for her.

• 1:13:50Georgia Hardstark?

  How wild is it that both of the murderers in this story are in San Quentin right now, as we're speaking?

• 1:13:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:13:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Do you think they fucking know each other?

• 1:14:00Karen Kilgariff?

  I would think they do, only because aren't the infamous killers like treated slightly differently?

• 1:14:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, they're like held separately for some reason.

• 1:14:09Karen Kilgariff?

  Get protection, maybe if they might need it. I don't know. Who knows?

• 1:14:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Shit.

• 1:14:14Karen Kilgariff?

  I definitely don't know, but that's, yeah, that's, that's crazy observation.

• 1:14:18Georgia Hardstark?

  It's so creepy.

• 1:14:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay, so this episode was originally titled, as we have said many times, the Fuck Word Murder Mystery Show.

• 1:14:25Georgia Hardstark?

  And if we were naming it today, which, you know, that's a classic name, well, we call it based on something we said in this episode. So the quietest girls on the podcast, because that's us, obviously us.

• 1:14:37Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, we're so quiet and demure.

• 1:14:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Hmm.

• 1:14:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Excuse me, which is what Georgia, she's talking about saying a spoiler without warning and it's like burping without saying, excuse me before or after. Which if that's the case, we have burped and burped and burped, literally and figuratively, all, all the way through this show.

• 1:14:55Georgia Hardstark?

  We have never said spoiler alert before our burps, for sure.

• 1:14:58Karen Kilgariff?

  I remember people getting mad about that and putting it- It in like on social media.

• 1:15:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Really?

• 1:15:02Karen Kilgariff?

  And me kind of.

• 1:15:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Cause of spoilers?

• 1:15:04Karen Kilgariff?

  In the beginning.

• 1:15:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh.

• 1:15:05Karen Kilgariff?

  They're like, can you please say spoiler alert? And it's just like, yeah, no, like you have to. It's the standing spoiler alert.

• 1:15:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 1:15:13Karen Kilgariff?

  We're gonna ruin it for you.

• 1:15:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. It's also like, okay, but did that air like five weeks ago? Like, what's the cutoff? It's not on us anymore.

• 1:15:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Thirty years.

• 1:15:22Georgia Hardstark?

  It's on you. Thirty years ago. We're spoiling Rear Window for you? I mean, I don't think.

• 1:15:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Also, I'm not like, I basically have gone into lockdown until I see Nosferatu. So like, that's just the, that's the life I'm willing to live if I want a totally fresh experience.

• 1:15:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, it's on.

• 1:15:37Karen Kilgariff?

  Come on.

• 1:15:38Georgia Hardstark?

  You. Take some responsibility.

• 1:15:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Wait a second, there's also Alejandra's suggestion, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, which is me doing a theme song for Tweet Corner. And it says it's Mimi's theme song as well.

• 1:15:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Well, you probably just heard it because you just listened to Rewind, which we fucking appreciate. Thank you guys for listening.

• 1:15:56Karen Kilgariff?

  It's so nice for you to reengage and to churn up all of the old stuff and look at it and piece through it with us.

• 1:16:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Take what works for you, leave the rest, like.

• 1:16:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:07Georgia Hardstark?

  In AA. And thanks for being here.

• 1:16:09Karen Kilgariff?

  Leave a penny, take a penny?

• 1:16:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:11Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, all of it. It's one of those kinds of podcasts. Let's do it that way. So stay sexy.

• 1:16:15Georgia Hardstark?

  And don't get murdered.

• 1:16:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Goodbye.

• 1:16:20Speaker 05

  Elvis, do you want a cookie?

• 1:16:27Speaker 06

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• 1:17:09Speaker 07

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• 1:17:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Calling all amateur detectives and podcast obsessives.

• 1:17:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Virgin Voyages' second True Crime Voyage sets sail March 20, 2027, for a five-night escape to Grand Turk and the Beach Club at Bimini.

• 1:17:48Karen Kilgariff?

  As part of the On Air at Sea collection, this immersive sailing brings together fan favorite podcasts, including DisgraceLand, Buried Bones, and Wisecrack for live recordings, behind-the-scenes access, exclusive meet and greets, and crime-themed programming that you won't find anywhere else.

• 1:18:05Georgia Hardstark?

  All aboard our award-winning, kid-free ships.

• 1:18:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Head over to virginvoyages.com/truecrime to secure your spot. Goodbye.