465 - You’re Kidding Yourself, Supt

On today’s episode, Karen covers The Burning Bed murder and Georgia tells the story of Locusta, Poisoner of Rome.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Karen Kilgariff?

  This is exactly right.

• 0:06Speaker 01

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• 0:36Speaker 02

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• 1:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Hello and welcome. To My Favorite Murder. That's Georgia Hardstark. That's Karen Kilgariff. And this is My Favorite Murder. Did we say that part already? I think that's part of it, but it's always good to remind people. I heard double intro-ing your podcast. Yeah. Shoot you up to the top. That's the new, like, what all the, you know, influencers are doing. Uh huh. It's just like double cleansing with Korean skincare. Can I start with a really embarrassing Corrections Corner that I've been now waiting two weeks? Yes, please. To correct. That's like so embarrassing. Sounds on point. Remember when I covered the British murder a couple weeks back? And I was like, this lieutenant's first name is Supt. What a cool name.

• 2:20Georgia Hardstark?

  It was Superintendent.

• 2:25Karen Kilgariff?

  Damn it.

• 2:27Georgia Hardstark?

  I mean, it's so obvious.

• 2:30Karen Kilgariff?

  It's, and also I remember you making that point and I wanted to like agree with you, but I kinda couldn't understand what you were saying.

• 2:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, it's an interesting name.

• 2:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Does it, I just don't understand what she's saying and I don't want to get her to clarify. It sounds like maybe it's a Serbian name or something.

• 2:45Georgia Hardstark?

  I thought like it was like a British thing or, you know, oh my God, like.

• 2:50Karen Kilgariff?

  Did you get inundated with British?

• 2:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes.

• 2:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Listeners being like?

• 2:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, very kindly.

• 2:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Always.

• 2:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Appreciate it very much.

• 2:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Always.

• 2:58Georgia Hardstark?

  A hundred percent need to know, but not harshly.

• 3:01Karen Kilgariff?

  What a cool name.

• 3:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Superintendent.

• 3:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Did you think his name was spelled S-S? How was it?

• 3:09Georgia Hardstark?

  S U P T. But there was no, shouldn't there be a period? Just didn't get it, just went right over that, that head of mine.

• 3:16Karen Kilgariff?

  That is a tough one. We have a lot of problems with the, the British law system. We always have.

• 3:22Georgia Hardstark?

  We have.

• 3:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Doesn't make sense to us.

• 3:24Georgia Hardstark?

  I don't think that's like on me and like I didn't like, you know, fact check or anything.

• 3:28Karen Kilgariff?

  We should start calling all police officers from England mum. Just to delineate.

• 3:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes.

• 3:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Just for our own clarity.

• 3:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Superintendent mum. Well, I wanted to get that out of the way now that we're back from a little.

• 3:41Karen Kilgariff?

  So brave. I'd like to commend you on that.

• 3:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Thank you.

• 3:45Karen Kilgariff?

  It's, who else does it like us?

• 3:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Nobody, everybody, nobody. Most of, nobody.

• 3:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Nobody.

• 3:52Georgia Hardstark?

  But we've been gone, this is our first episode, like officially back in the studio with a normal episode since these fucking bananas fires that happened in Los Angeles.

• 4:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Luckily, the, over this weekend, it rained.

• 4:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 4:06Karen Kilgariff?

  So like there was a level of calm, or at least like slight relief that came over a lot of people who lived in LA who were just living in that fear that they were going to kick up again, that. Whatever was gonna happen.

• 4:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 4:20Karen Kilgariff?

  Such a bizarre week and so dramatic and so horrible for so many people.

• 4:26Georgia Hardstark?

  It was really crazy to find that question you get asked on podcasts all the time. What would you, and I've even asked on podcasts to other people, what would you grab in a fire?

• 4:34Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 4:35Georgia Hardstark?

  And I, cause I, we weren't in the evacuation zone. We were like, like right below it and so, and you could smell the smoke. It was really strong. The electricity had gone out and I was just, that's just one of my nightmares my whole life is like, I pictured how I would do it, especially with three cats.

• 4:52Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 4:52Georgia Hardstark?

  In an emergency.

• 4:53Karen Kilgariff?

  In the dark.

• 4:54Georgia Hardstark?

  In the dark, right. And so we did it and I mean, thankfully our house, it didn't, it did never reach our house, but the, it was, you know, very close.

• 5:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 5:05Georgia Hardstark?

  And so sad.

• 5:06Karen Kilgariff?

  It's so sad and it's also, there's a weird thing I'm observing in myself and other people I talk to. Either the people that, people that didn't have to evacuate feel guilty.

• 5:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Mm hmm.

• 5:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Like to even like discuss it where it's like, well, it wasn't me. And then people like me who did evacuate and feel stupid because like I just left probably an hour before most of the other people in my area did. Because I was, because basically Jay Elias, our, our great development coordinator at this point, but also executive assistant to many at this company.

• 5:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 5:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Texted me and was like, you have to get out right now.

• 5:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. I don't feel embarrassed at all. It's like, I kind of actually am like proud that I handled myself in a really, you know, I yelled at Vince a little bit to hurry up, but otherwise.

• 5:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, that's interesting.

• 5:56Georgia Hardstark?

  It all went well, you know, and it is like.

• 5:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Really honest today.

• 6:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Not yelled, but you know what I mean.

• 6:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Sure. Well, you were freaking out.

• 6:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, freaking out.

• 6:05Karen Kilgariff?

  It was fucking so scary.

• 6:06Georgia Hardstark?

  It was so scary. And yeah, there's, you know, I, Altadena was such a darling town. I know so many people there. There's a, someone in our back house staying there because they lost their entire house. So there is just like guilt.

• 6:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 6:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Like that for sure. But my cousins are from Pacific Palisades and earlier that day, they were part of that crew who had to leave their car behind and just run down this like down. And I was just like, I don't want to be that. I don't want to be. I don't want to evacuate when I'm told to evacuate with everyone else.

• 6:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 6:37Georgia Hardstark?

  That's my, one of my other worst nightmares is like sitting in evacuation traffic.

• 6:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Are your cousins okay?

• 6:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Some lost houses, some didn't, and it's just so, everyone knows someone who lost houses. It's fucking.

• 6:47Karen Kilgariff?

  But that trauma, that like gridlock, emergency gridlock trauma, I, it's, it, I saw that video of those cars being left in the Pacific Palisades.

• 6:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 6:57Karen Kilgariff?

  And that's why I, well, that and Jay telling me, but it was like, yeah, yeah, I'm not waiting around until everybody else is looking at each other and getting in the car at the same time.

• 7:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, I bet you have this experience too. Fucking huge shout out to Vince's retired fire chief brother, Russ. He was so on it, texting us from Michigan with all the insider info. It was so incredible. Like, and you have fire, your dad was a firefighter, obviously. That was incredible.

• 7:28Karen Kilgariff?

  He literally, he was telling, texting me and being like, hey, where are they right now? Like, I was the one that was taking screenshots of the watch duty app and sending them to him. No, I was like informing him about what was going on.

• 7:40Georgia Hardstark?

  All right.

• 7:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. But I mean, I'm sure in his, if you were to say anything, which I'm sure my sister said, don't say anything.

• 7:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, yeah.

• 7:46Karen Kilgariff?

  If he was gonna say anything, he'd be like, take it easy.

• 7:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Right, right.

• 7:50Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. Maybe why I was interpreting that as like, there's, I'm seeing, I'm hearing a lot of other people have shame, where it's like, no, Karen, that's you.

• 7:58Georgia Hardstark?

  That's tied to you and your.

• 8:01Karen Kilgariff?

  And your weird family.

• 8:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, so good luck.

• 8:04Karen Kilgariff?

  The way they do things. But suffice it to say, really shocking, terrible, like, natural disaster to a degree I've never seen and I've lived here for 25, over 25 years.

• 8:17Georgia Hardstark?

  In the midst of the inauguration. It's, it just felt like the end of the fucking world.

• 8:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 8:23Georgia Hardstark?

  And it still does.

• 8:24Karen Kilgariff?

  It does, in many ways, although the rain kind of brought a little bit of a like, at least a like, okay, we're done with that.

• 8:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 8:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Now, that's like, we're gonna close this particular chapter of this particular trauma.

• 8:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Season.

• 8:38Karen Kilgariff?

  So, yeah, the thing we wanted to talk to everybody about is how. Long before any of that started.

• 8:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 8:45Karen Kilgariff?

  We had a ninth anniversary for this old podcast.

• 8:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 8:47Karen Kilgariff?

  This old gal. I think it was on the 13th.

• 8:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, something like that.

• 8:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Something around there.

• 8:52Georgia Hardstark?

  And we were gonna do a whole live stream and we had asked you guys for the ninth anniversary gift, which is ceramics.

• 9:00Karen Kilgariff?

  Yep.

• 9:01Georgia Hardstark?

  And a couple of you delivered.

• 9:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 9:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Not many. Just kidding. We got so much fucking ceramics.

• 9:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Boxes.

• 9:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Boxes upon boxes, photos, tags on... Some people were like, "I want to send it to you, but it costs me $500 to send it."

• 9:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 9:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Like, just so much awesome stuff.

• 9:17Karen Kilgariff?

  People were making and people were making and shipping.

• 9:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 9:21Karen Kilgariff?

  And people were sharing and it was exactly what we wanted. And then we basically, it was almost kind of like, we sent everyone an invitation to the party and left the house and turned the lights out and we're like, "See you later." So, this today, it's just gonna be a little taste of what we wanted that to be.

• 9:37Georgia Hardstark?

  And what it's going to be.

• 9:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 9:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Because we're still gonna do it. We're just kind of recalibrating right now.

• 9:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Right, exactly. We'll do, we'll do a live stream because we have the capability to now here at the studios, but also just, we thought it would be a super fun, cool, new way to kind of celebrate something or like, mark an important day, like an anniversary.

• 9:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 9:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Like your almost decade anniversary of a podcast.

• 10:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 10:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Imagine.

• 10:01Georgia Hardstark?

  So important, everyone. One of the most important moments in a person's life.

• 10:06Karen Kilgariff?

  In a young woman's life, yeah, for sure. That and getting her first piece of dedicated ceramics. So, without further ado, the reason we're telling you all this, listener, is because we are now going to take a look at some of the, just some, and like, truly, we're gonna have, we're gonna have a lot of these. We're gonna be able to do this maybe as a recurring segment of, "Let's take a look at today's ceramics."

• 10:30Georgia Hardstark?

  And I can't, we haven't seen a single piece. I haven't. You might have accidentally because it's near your office.

• 10:35Karen Kilgariff?

  I did, I did. No, no, no, I did accidentally, simply just right before we started because I yanked this in the pure fun of, there's a blast.

• 10:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Piece of silk.

• 10:43Karen Kilgariff?

  And I was like, yes, and Andre's like, no.

• 10:46Georgia Hardstark?

  There's a reason that was covered. So we haven't seen any of this. The incredible team at Exactly Right have been going through the boxes and you can hear them diabolically laughing or just cracking up every time they see one. So there's one on our table right now. It's covered up. If you want to go to YouTube, you can see it, or I'm sure we'll put it on our socials.

• 11:02Karen Kilgariff?

  It'll be all over socials. We're gonna make this for you listener who's just walking around the mall being like, wow, I don't know what I'm talking about. Don't worry, it's okay.

• 11:10Georgia Hardstark?

  We're gonna explain it.

• 11:11Karen Kilgariff?

  We're gonna give you pictures. In this day and age, soon, you'll be able to look at your podcast app and video will be sitting there.

• 11:18Georgia Hardstark?

  That's right.

• 11:19Karen Kilgariff?

  That's the future.

• 11:20Georgia Hardstark?

  But until then, you have to listen to us explain things.

• 11:23Karen Kilgariff?

  In detail.

• 11:23Georgia Hardstark?

  In detail, and probably get some things incorrect.

• 11:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. What's really important, I think, for everyone to know, and the video watcher will now know, is these pieces, these ceramic pieces, these ceramic artworks are right now sitting on an electric lazy Susan on our podcasting desk. So we can make this as HGTV, not HGTV, as shopping channel. What's that one with the letters?

• 11:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Home Shopping Network.

• 11:50Karen Kilgariff?

  HSN.

• 11:50Georgia Hardstark?

  HSN.

• 11:51Karen Kilgariff?

  This is, we're going into that area pretty severely.

• 11:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay. Did you ever think that like you would be in a place in your life where you could just ask for an electronic lazy Susan and have it fucking deliver?

• 12:02Karen Kilgariff?

  A dream.

• 12:03Georgia Hardstark?

  That is like, boss bitch.

• 12:06Karen Kilgariff?

  It's high fucking level lean into the lazy Susan.

• 12:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, I haven't seen it yet, so I'm gonna do it. Ready? Okay, oh, Andre's gonna press play on the lazy Susan to move.

• 12:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Now the spin begins.

• 12:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Here we go. One, two, three. Oh, my god.

• 12:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 12:24Georgia Hardstark?

  It's a French, coffee French press with two beautiful ceramic cups. But it is not, I thought it was supposed to be funny. I thought these were all gonna be funny. This is fucking gorgeous.

• 12:34Karen Kilgariff?

  It's gorgeous. Also, it's whatever any artist felt like giving us. So this is Emily, AKA Pottery Mama.

• 12:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow, Instagram handle, at Pottery underscore Mama. This is high art.

• 12:46Karen Kilgariff?

  It's gorgeous. I love these colors. It says, quote, "This is just a segment of the email or the letter that Pottery Mama sent with us. They said, please enjoy your new ceramic French press and mugs. I made them while listening to MFM, plus a bit of buried bones, and this podcast will kill you sprinkled in."

• 13:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Does that disqualify?

• 13:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Not in any way.

• 13:07Georgia Hardstark?

  This is so beautiful. I have been wild. Can you imagine? I have been wanting a French press.

• 13:11Karen Kilgariff?

  And then we throw it all around.

• 13:13Georgia Hardstark?

  This is gorgeous. And I love that Emily points out that they're made with food safe clay and glazes. Cause that's like, you know, my fucking thing now, like all my vintage kitchenware turns out.

• 13:23Karen Kilgariff?

  It's filled with lead.

• 13:24Georgia Hardstark?

  And I can't use any of it.

• 13:25Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 13:25Georgia Hardstark?

  This is, this is beautiful. Okay, let's go on to our next piece of ceramics.

• 13:30Karen Kilgariff?

  All right, we can intro this first.

• 13:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 13:33Karen Kilgariff?

  It's from an artist named Missy aka Young Yenta.

• 13:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, Instagram handle at Young Yenta. Love it.

• 13:39Karen Kilgariff?

  And she says, as a ceramicist, Jewess and hot dog lover, I felt it was my duty to fulfill your anniversary request.

• 13:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh my God.

• 13:47Karen Kilgariff?

  You give so much to me and all your fans, so it's an honor to give back.

• 13:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Ready?

• 13:53Karen Kilgariff?

  I'm gonna do it. One, two, three.

• 13:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, it's so, it's going towards you. It's slowly.

• 14:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Don't push the Susan.

• 14:01Georgia Hardstark?

  You'll see it. Don't push Susan. It is a gorgeous like plate platter with a beautiful painting of a hot dog on it.

• 14:10Karen Kilgariff?

  And it says, stay in mustard, stay sexy and nosh on a dog.

• 14:14Georgia Hardstark?

  I love it.

• 14:15Karen Kilgariff?

  That's gorgeous.

• 14:16Georgia Hardstark?

  That is beautiful.

• 14:17Karen Kilgariff?

  People are sending us, these are like actual pieces. This is.

• 14:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 14:22Karen Kilgariff?

  I don't know what the kitchenware term is, but like.

• 14:24Georgia Hardstark?

  I don't know, but it's like they're, they're like furnishing exactly right studios with art. We like kind of got away with something here where it's like, we don't have to, we don't have to go to Home Goods.

• 14:34Karen Kilgariff?

  That's right.

• 14:35Georgia Hardstark?

  We have it all for, for them.

• 14:37Karen Kilgariff?

  God, I really love this.

• 14:38Georgia Hardstark?

  It's beautiful.

• 14:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Uh, Missy, that's, you did an incredible job and also just, it's basically a hot dog plate.

• 14:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, I was hoping there'd be hot dog art. It is the right size for like double hot dogs.

• 14:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 14:50Georgia Hardstark?

  That's perfect.

• 14:50Karen Kilgariff?

  Maybe a couple of chips on one end and the other.

• 14:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Salt and vinegar.

• 14:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Listener, you're gonna love this, cause this is just some simple, beautiful hot dog art. That's just kind of like, you love hot dogs, right?

• 15:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 15:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, then take a look at this plate.

• 15:02Georgia Hardstark?

  And somehow it's flawless.

• 15:04Karen Kilgariff?

  It really is. Cause it totally suggests you're gonna eat one or two dogs only on this plate.

• 15:10Georgia Hardstark?

  It's oval.

• 15:11Karen Kilgariff?

  Wow.

• 15:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Beautiful. Okay, let's do the next one.

• 15:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Thank you kindly.

• 15:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Thank you, Yon Yenta. This next one is from artist Sam Bregel. Instagram handle @sambregel. It's B-R-I-E-G-E-L. And they say about this, we haven't seen it yet. "I refer to this style of mug as my quilted twist mug. I chose crows for Georgia and included my favorite MFM quote on these mugs. It is made from translucent porcelain and is meant to be used and enjoyed. Thank you for all that you do. Love, Sam." Here we go, big reveal.

• 15:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Sam.

• 15:45Georgia Hardstark?

  I'm sorry. What?

• 15:48Karen Kilgariff?

  What?

• 15:48Georgia Hardstark?

  That's fucking art. Why am I so shocked? Like, because I think what I would have done is like made a hot dog ceramic thing that you can't tell what it was. Mine would have looked so bad.

• 15:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Look at that crow. That is gorgeous.

• 16:02Georgia Hardstark?

  It says, "This is terrible. Keep going." "It's a red, yellow, and black mug with quilted texture." It's got like, those are almost like Danish modern.

• 16:09Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, designs.

• 16:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Designs. I've never seen something so beautiful.

• 16:13Karen Kilgariff?

  It's gorgeous and also makes me think of one of those ones you can put it on the dashboard of your car. And you, because it's like a really good travel mug wider at the base and narrow at the top.

• 16:23Georgia Hardstark?

  You guys are professionals.

• 16:24Karen Kilgariff?

  I need.

• 16:25Georgia Hardstark?

  I didn't know. It would be like, I'm kind of like in awe.

• 16:28Karen Kilgariff?

  I know. I'm totally in awe. It's really exciting.

• 16:31Georgia Hardstark?

  You guys are so talented.

• 16:33Karen Kilgariff?

  It's because like, we said a thing where it's like, hey, do you like to make a thing in this one way? Well, will you make us some? And people are like, I make stuff in that way.

• 16:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh my God, that's incredible. That's Sam Bregel. Thank you so much.

• 16:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Amazing job, Sam Bregel.

• 16:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Beautiful mug I've ever seen.

• 16:48Karen Kilgariff?

  It's very cool. And then this part is for if you're, if you are driving at night.

• 16:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh yeah.

• 16:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Reflective.

• 16:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, one more. Look at that. It's so beautiful.

• 16:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Look at our, look at our.

• 17:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Our gift shelf.

• 17:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Array.

• 17:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh my God.

• 17:02Karen Kilgariff?

  I kind of just want to do this for the rest of the show.

• 17:05Georgia Hardstark?

  This is pretty fun. Okay, here's the next one. Unveil, Karen.

• 17:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh my god. This is a precious moment.

• 17:18Georgia Hardstark?

  What is it called, statue? What is it?

• 17:20Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, precious moments, yeah.

• 17:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Of you and I. As precious moments. Dolls, this is insane. This is Lindsey, from Lindsey Cook. It says Lindsey's hobby is altered moments, which is taking old precious moments figurines and transforming them into fun new characters, bringing new life and fresh perspective. Holy, I have a hot dog behind my back.

• 17:43Karen Kilgariff?

  You have a tiny hot dog behind your back.

• 17:45Georgia Hardstark?

  I have pigtails and a tiny hot dog behind my back. And there are crows on the top. And we're standing next to a tree with SSDGM carved in it. Oh.

• 17:52Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 17:52Georgia Hardstark?

  My god.

• 17:53Karen Kilgariff?

  This is a real tell your eight-year-old self that this is happening because this will blow your mind.

• 17:58Georgia Hardstark?

  She can't believe it.

• 18:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, here's some pictures from the original.

• 18:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, so she took them and like turned them into us somehow.

• 18:05Karen Kilgariff?

  So this is us.

• 18:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay. Let me see the original.

• 18:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Dude.

• 18:09Georgia Hardstark?

  There's, that is brilliant.

• 18:11Karen Kilgariff?

  And then here's the back. Should we hold those up?

• 18:13Georgia Hardstark?

  What, that is brilliant.

• 18:14Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, because this is every precious moment.

• 18:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 18:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Picture, I mean, statue in everyone's grandma's house.

• 18:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes, like a sad beige precious moment statue from your grandma's house that she turned into this beautiful thing. You guys.

• 18:28Karen Kilgariff?

  God, that's funny.

• 18:29Georgia Hardstark?

  So talented. I'm so impressed. I can't wait to see the rest of them now.

• 18:34Karen Kilgariff?

  Say their name again, sorry.

• 18:35Georgia Hardstark?

  It's Lindsey Cook. And we'll be posting this. This is so freaking cool.

• 18:39Karen Kilgariff?

  It's so good.

• 18:40Georgia Hardstark?

  I want to see all of them now. Like, this is next level. Thank you guys so much. We'll be doing more of these. We're going to have a live stream. Like, this could be its own episode. It's so cool.

• 18:52Karen Kilgariff?

  This is legendary.

• 18:54Georgia Hardstark?

  So clever.

• 18:54Karen Kilgariff?

  This is unbelievable.

• 18:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow. Yes, that looks so. What an array of beautiful, talented pieces. I just, I'm like, I am blown away. Like, my face is warm.

• 19:08Karen Kilgariff?

  I know, I know. It's really cool. Thank you guys so much.

• 19:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Thank you.

• 19:12Karen Kilgariff?

  Ceramists. People who actually took the time and money. There are some boxes out there that we're like, oh, people had to spend a lot of money to ship these to us. And just so you know, if you shipped one to us, it's been sitting on a table in very prominent display with everybody looking at it and talking about it and looking at them, except for me and Georgia. For like, three weeks, Alejandra?

• 19:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, but it's gonna happen. This is just the tip of the iceberg.

• 19:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Because we have to always have electronic lazy Susan.

• 19:41Georgia Hardstark?

  I mean, we have, we got it. We have to put it to use, or it's a waste of money.

• 19:46Karen Kilgariff?

  That's right.

• 19:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Let's not waste, exactly right, funds.

• 19:48Karen Kilgariff?

  No, we can't. So we have to use it as much as we can this year.

• 19:52Georgia Hardstark?

  We better.

• 19:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Also, we should actually just display this very, it was shopped for by Brent, talked about, I watched them talk about the two choices, Alejandra picked one of two.

• 20:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Of what?

• 20:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Silk reveal scarves.

• 20:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, that's the most important part.

• 20:11Karen Kilgariff?

  I believe they're called schmatas by many people in productions.

• 20:14Georgia Hardstark?

  I love a good schmata.

• 20:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Put the schmata over that, keep it as a surprise. Pull the schmata off.

• 20:20Georgia Hardstark?

  All right.

• 20:21Karen Kilgariff?

  All right, thanks, Alejandra.

• 20:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Good job, Alejandra.

• 20:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Super fun.

• 20:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Well, thank you guys so much. That was incredible.

• 20:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Unbelievable.

• 20:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Real quick, before we get to the ERM highlights and our stories, we want to talk about donations.

• 20:34Karen Kilgariff?

  So one of the most amazing things, and I think we may have talked about this a little, although I can't remember, but it did become a national news story, was the way that the citizens of Los Angeles came together to basically provide for each other in one of the most beautiful outpourings of community and charity and just basically like love and giving.

• 20:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 20:54Karen Kilgariff?

  That most of us have ever seen.

• 20:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, it was definitely one of those look for the helpers moments. That was so beautiful.

• 20:59Karen Kilgariff?

  One of them started because there was some guys who were just like food cart guys, and they decided to go down to the Rose Bowl parking lot because they heard that's where a lot of the firemen for the Altadena fire were, like, they were centralized there. So they just, four guys that have their own like hot dog carts, went down there to cook for the firemen. And then they put it on TikTok of like, oh, if you have donations to help us feed these firemen, you know, we'd love to get them, or you know, anything you want to do, come down here, which then turned into the Rose Bowl parking lot, like, basically...

• 21:34Karen Kilgariff?

  Center where anyone could go to pick up clothes, supplies,

• 21:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Amazing.

• 21:39Karen Kilgariff?

  diapers. It was like community action in a way that like I've never seen.

• 21:44Georgia Hardstark?

  So that's what people were doing, you know, during the days after and during this catastrophe. But of course, people are still doing stuff and we want to add to that. So we're going to donate $10,000 to the Los Angeles Regional Food Bank. The food bank works with hundreds of partner agencies across Los Angeles County to provide food assistance to those who have been affected by the wildfires. So we just wanted to add a little to that. I have like three giant bags of clothes that I'm waiting to donate until people want vintage dresses.

• 22:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 22:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Because I don't think that's the first thing you want when you're.

• 22:19Karen Kilgariff?

  No.

• 22:20Georgia Hardstark?

  You know what I mean?

• 22:20Karen Kilgariff?

  I, yes, I do. It's like, hey, do you want to wear a dress that has polka dots and reminds you of your grandma? It's like, not right now.

• 22:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Not right now.

• 22:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Do you have any sweatpants?

• 22:28Georgia Hardstark?

  I need sweatpants, yeah.

• 22:29Karen Kilgariff?

  I need a sweatshirt and I need you to make me a bunch of hot dogs.

• 22:33Georgia Hardstark?

  So the coming months, look out for those vintage dresses everywhere.

• 22:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, that's right. And if you are watching this on YouTube, there should be a button that pops up where you, if you would like to donate to the LA Regional Food Bank, then there's should be a button that pops up on this video and you can do that directly.

• 22:51Georgia Hardstark?

  It's lafoodbank.org.

• 22:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Yay. All right. We have a podcast network. It's called the Exactly Right Podcast Network.

• 22:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, it is. Yeah.

• 22:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Exactly right.

• 22:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Sure.

• 23:00Karen Kilgariff?

  And there's all kinds of podcasts on there. We like to tell you about some of the stuff that's going on.

• 23:05Georgia Hardstark?

  We do. And we have some exciting news. The first episode of our brand new film podcast, Dear Movies, I Love You, is out now and you can finally listen for yourselves and understand why we are so in love with this podcast.

• 23:17Karen Kilgariff?

  In their first episode, they talk about the 2018 remake of A Star is Born. They go into the age old tradition of drinking on film. And of course, their guest is comedian Shalaywa Sharp, who is hilarious and talks for quite some time with them about the film. Trilogy Magic Mike.

• 23:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, good.

• 23:36Karen Kilgariff?

  So.

• 23:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Because we need that.

• 23:38Karen Kilgariff?

  A lot of film gets discussed on this episode. It's a great premiere episode.

• 23:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes.

• 23:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Really, really entertaining.

• 23:44Georgia Hardstark?

  It would mean a lot to us if you guys could follow that, could subscribe to their episodes, could get a little heart going on that.

• 23:52Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 23:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Five stars, whatever it is, it really helps and we appreciate it.

• 23:54Karen Kilgariff?

  And it's your friend Millie Jachirko from I Saw What You Did.

• 23:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 23:58Karen Kilgariff?

  And the producer of that podcast, Casey O'Brien, who are now hosting the, it's just like family fun for everybody.

• 24:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Dear movies, I love you. And speaking of amazing guests, this week on Do You Need a Ride? Actor and comedian Sam Pancake. Oh, I love Sam. Hops in the passenger seat.

• 24:14Karen Kilgariff?

  One of the greats of our time.

• 24:15Georgia Hardstark?

  One of the greatest.

• 24:16Karen Kilgariff?

  I just remembered recording that episode and it was just a delight. Then also over on Wicked Words, Kate Winkler-Dawson is talking to author Michael Artfield about his book, Monster City: Murder, Music, and Mayhem in Nashville's Dark Age.

• 24:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Ew.

• 24:31Karen Kilgariff?

  I'm gonna read that.

• 24:32Georgia Hardstark?

  And speaking of books, Kate's brand new book, The Sinners All Bow, Two Authors, One Murder, and The Real Hester Prynne, is out now. Kate Winkler-Dawson, the most prolific person I've ever met in my life.

• 24:43Karen Kilgariff?

  We're so lucky to get to work with her.

• 24:45Georgia Hardstark?

  We are.

• 24:45Karen Kilgariff?

  We're just like.

• 24:46Georgia Hardstark?

  She's so talented.

• 24:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 24:47Georgia Hardstark?

  And you must, you must read it.

• 24:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. Also, we have some bittersweet news. We are saying goodbye to the Lady to Lady podcast, Brandy, Babs, and Tess. We want to thank you for all your great work over the years. You'll always be a part of the Exactly Right family. And listeners, please look for and support Lady to Lady wherever you get your podcasts.

• 25:08Georgia Hardstark?

  The holidays are coming, which means we'll all be spending more time away from home.

• 25:12Karen Kilgariff?

  Whether you're visiting family or doing something actually fun, you want to know your home is protected while you're away.

• 25:18Georgia Hardstark?

  That's why now is a good time to think about home security with SimpliSafe.

• 25:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Unlike traditional security systems that alert you after a break-in starts, SimpliSafe is designed to help stop intruders before they get inside. These days, you're worried about your house, you're out of town, and then something comes up and you get to look on your phone and SimpliSafe is going to show you not only the video of like, it's a raccoon at your front door, but also that they have staff that's sitting there. They already know. And if it was something different or worse, they would have already been on it.

• 25:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, I really think that's invaluable peace of mind that just like relying on your neighbors, paying attention is not going to give you. We've partnered with SimpliSafe to offer our listeners their biggest savings of the year. 70% off your new system with professional monitoring when you visit simplisafe.com/mfm.

• 26:04Karen Kilgariff?

  That's simplisafe.com/mfm. And when you order, write in MFM at checkout and it tells them we sent you and it really helps the show.

• 26:12Georgia Hardstark?

  SimpliSafe, ahead of crime in real time.

• 26:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Goodbye. This podcast is brought to you by Squarespace. Turning something you love into a career is exciting. Then come the invoices. Lucky for you, Squarespace can handle the business stuff, so you can focus on your business. From consultations to events and experiences, you can showcase your skills with a customizable website designed to attract clients and grow your business. With Squarespace's collection of cutting-edge design tools, anyone can build a beautiful, professional, online presence that perfectly fits their brand or business. Get paid on time with professional invoices and online payments. Plus, streamline your workflow with built-in appointment scheduling and email marketing tools. Head to Squarespace.com/murder

• 26:56Karen Kilgariff?

  for a free trial. And when you're ready to launch, use offer code MURDER to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. Goodbye. The most annoying thing about dinner is that you have to keep making it.

• 27:07Georgia Hardstark?

  And every single time, you have to figure out what you're going to eat.

• 27:11Karen Kilgariff?

  It's time to take some of that work off your plate with Hungry Root.

• 27:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Hungry Root is like having your own personal shopper and nutritionist all wrapped into one. They'll take care of the weekly grocery shopping and recommend groceries and meals tailored to you. It's so nice having Hungry Root just take care of the thinking part of dinner, because I swear, like every 10 minutes of my life is what's for dinner? I'm so sick of it. And so I love when you can just open your fridge and be like, okay, great. We have roasted chicken with fries and broccoli from Hungry Root. Or Wagyu ribeye steak with green goddess potatoes. Great. Let's go with that. I don't want to think about it. That sounds amazing. And it's easy.

• 27:48Karen Kilgariff?

  It's easy and it's good for you. You're not just ordering another pizza. You're gonna love Hungry Root.

• 27:53Georgia Hardstark?

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• 27:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Go to hungryroot.com/mfm and use code MFM.

• 28:02Georgia Hardstark?

  That's hungryroot.com/mfm, code MFM to get 40% off your first box and a free item of your choice for life.

• 28:09Karen Kilgariff?

  Goodbye.

• 28:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay, so today I'm going to tell you about a domestic violence case from the 70s that carries a massive legacy and has changed our perception of spousal abuse. Wow. And just a listener note, this story deals with very severe domestic abuse and suicidal ideation. At the time, spousal abuse was treated as a private matter between a husband and a wife. Fuck. At best. Yeah. And then at worst, it was dismissed, ignored, or joked about. In fact, Ms. Magazine, which at the time was one of the few outlets that was actually pushing back at this kind of language and energy, regularly asked readers to send in

• 28:58Karen Kilgariff?

  sexist ads that they found in newspapers and magazines. No way. Uh huh. And in 1973, someone sent in a print advertisement for a bowling alley in Michigan that read in big, bold lettering, "Have some fun, beat your wife tonight." Jesus. Mm-hmm. And right now, if you listen closely, you can hear Bill Maher scrambling to defend this comedy and how hilarious it is. What? What a joke. What a top-tier joke. Well, this was America in the 70s. Yeah. And what's really weird, that sometimes this happens on this show, and it's kind of what I'm in it for, if I'm gonna be honest. Yeah. Is when I was there for a cultural moment. Totally. I was 14 years old.

• 29:42Karen Kilgariff?

  The reason I know this case. Oh. Is because of a made-for-TV movie that came out when I was 14, so like, a handful of years after it happened. No way. And you remember it? Oh, like it was yesterday. Okay. And I remember not only watching it and experiencing it, but then what happened after it. Wow. And it was one of those things that I think these days, a lot of, it had the natural, almost viral effect, but it was 1984. Right. Which, so that never happened. Yeah. And it was that kind of thing where suddenly people were seeing and talking about this issue in a completely different way. Right. Because I feel like with so many of these things, the idea was shame, so you wouldn't

• 30:26Karen Kilgariff?

  share it, so no one knew how big the problem was, no one knew that they had other people they could connect to who were also going through it. Yeah. You kept quiet. Yeah. And when these things come out in public...

• 30:36Georgia Hardstark?

  It's not our fucking shame.

• 30:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 30:39Georgia Hardstark?

  You know?

• 30:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 30:40Georgia Hardstark?

  So what was the movie called?

• 30:41Karen Kilgariff?

  I'm gonna tell you. It starred Farrah Fawcett.

• 30:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 30:44Karen Kilgariff?

  Now, this was Farrah Fawcett when I was a young girl. She was one of the stars of Charlie's Angels. Legendary.

• 30:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 30:51Karen Kilgariff?

  And she herself legendary. But for like a Charlie's Angels, I was on the love boat. She was basically the most beautiful woman

• 30:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 30:59Karen Kilgariff?

  in America. She did movies and stuff, but she wasn't known for acting first. She was known for beauty first.

• 31:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 31:07Karen Kilgariff?

  This changed that.

• 31:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 31:09Karen Kilgariff?

  She stars in it and does such an unbelievably amazing job. It was like, no one could believe it.

• 31:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 31:15Karen Kilgariff?

  It was truly incredible. As I just, I remember not being able to believe what I was looking at.

• 31:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 31:23Karen Kilgariff?

  The other part of it was, this thing was, you know, I don't know if you had a lot of experience with made-for-TV movies or that like CBS Friday Night at the Movies or whatever.

• 31:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 31:33Karen Kilgariff?

  But it was usually kind of family-oriented.

• 31:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 31:35Karen Kilgariff?

  You know, it's kind of like, this is a true story of a horse.

• 31:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. It's almost, it's soap opera-y.

• 31:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 31:42Georgia Hardstark?

  It's not very realistic.

• 31:44Karen Kilgariff?

  Someone, everyone could watch it.

• 31:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 31:46Karen Kilgariff?

  It would be like either inspirational or yeah, romantic or whatever. This was like a true crime documentary.

• 31:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 31:54Karen Kilgariff?

  It was so upsetting. It was so harsh. It was so, it was so realistic.

• 32:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Mm-hmm.

• 32:00Karen Kilgariff?

  And the abuse scenes were like

• 32:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 32:04Karen Kilgariff?

  unlike anything anyone had done before.

• 32:06Georgia Hardstark?

  They didn't shy away from like getting in your face.

• 32:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Quite the opposite.

• 32:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 32:09Karen Kilgariff?

  And for the time, it was totally revolutionary.

• 32:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 32:12Karen Kilgariff?

  I would say, although this is my opinion, it shocked the nation. You could use that phrase. The day after, it was what everyone was talking about. It essentially ripped off the mask of wife-beater jokes because it exposed the true horrifying nightmare of living life with a violent abuser and what years of life with a violent abuser can actually lead to.

• 32:35Georgia Hardstark?

  It's the toll it takes. It's so, yeah.

• 32:38Karen Kilgariff?

  So this is the story of Francine Hughes and the Burning Bed Murder. A case that forced the issue of domestic violence out of the shadows and into popular culture.

• 32:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh.

• 32:49Karen Kilgariff?

  The main sources used today are the book The Burning Bed by Faith McNulty, a 2020 mini-documentary from The Retro Report and The New Yorker entitled The Domestic Violence Case That Turned Outrage Into Action. A 1984 People Magazine article by Joya de Liberto, entitled "A Violent Death: A Haunted Life", and the rest of the sources are in our show notes.

• 33:14Karen Kilgariff?

  So, our story begins in Michigan in August of 1947, and that's when Frances Hughes is born. Her dad, Walter, is a blue collar laborer who works on farms and in factories. Her mom Hazel is a waitress. They have six children, including Francine. They live in poverty, which, of course, is made worse because Walter squanders everything they have on alcohol and gambling. And he's also physically abusive towards Hazel. Francine leaves her parents' house as soon as she can. When she's 16 years old, she drops out of high school and marries a man named Mickey Hughes, who's three years older than her. So sixteen year old and a nineteen year old.

• 33:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, the only way to get out of your house, too, is to marry someone, you know?

• 34:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Was back then.

• 34:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 34:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Right. Women were so, at this time, which would have been, like, what? Late 50s, early 60s? Women's independence, like, was almost impossible. It was so restricted.

• 34:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 34:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 34:18Georgia Hardstark?

  You couldn't get a bank account under your own name.

• 34:20Karen Kilgariff?

  Couldn't get it, not without your dad or your husband. And then you have a dad, like, let's go ahead and name him, Walter. So Walter's the guy that, if you don't have somebody better than Walter in your life, then you're just screwed.

• 34:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 34:35Karen Kilgariff?

  So Francine says, quote, "I thought he was so sophisticated. He had his own car, and most people I knew didn't." So, within weeks of their wedding, Mickey's behavior toward Francine changes. She will later remember, quote, "I bought some new clothes. He ripped them off me. I don't know whether I look too pretty or what, but he didn't want me to look that way. I was shocked because I'd never been treated like that before." What do you do when you're 16 years old and you had to beg your parents to let you get married? Of course, he said, "I'm sorry. Forgive me. It'll never happen again." And I believed him. But it did happen again. And by that time, I was pregnant and felt like I had to make the best of it.

• 35:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Aye.

• 35:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Baby angel. Tough. So by the time Francine's 22, she has four children with Mickey. Wow. Two daughters and two sons, but Mickey can't hold down a job. The money he does earn goes to his growing drinking habit, not his family. So now Francine is stuck in the same cycle her own mother was stuck in. Her full-time job is caring for her children, but Mickey's drinking and gambling make it nearly impossible for her to buy groceries or pay rent. And at one point, she's left to feed her kids popcorn that she mixes with jelly and water, just for the calories. Oh. So meanwhile, Francine lives with a looming threat of violence at the hands of

• 35:58Karen Kilgariff?

  her husband, not constantly, because sometimes Mickey can be loving when he wants to be. But Francine learns to walk on eggshells around him. Her son James later reflects on the tense atmosphere in their home by saying, quote, "A lot of stuff went on behind closed doors. She was scared a lot of my dad, I know that. She lived in constant fear because little things would set him off. She might say a word, and just the inflection of the way she said it may set him off, start making him mad." So when Mickey's mad, he usually takes it out on Francine. Sometimes this happens in front of the children, and sometimes it's so bad, the cops are called. But Mickey never faces any real consequences, because at the time, police officers would

• 36:42Karen Kilgariff?

  only make an arrest if they themselves witnessed the assault firsthand. Great. Otherwise, they just file a report. Now, these days, that's changed. In most jurisdictions, officers can make arrests citing probable cause, based on injuries or witnesses' statements. So of course, once the police are called to stop this horrible domestic abuse, and then it stops. Right. Then they leave, Mickey just goes back to beating Francine again. And so, of course, the natural question that we have heard in the past is, why doesn't she leave? But I think a lot of people, especially since like the 80s, it just people who are

• 37:23Karen Kilgariff?

  interested in knowing the real answer to questions like that, know that it is much, it is incredibly complex situation to be in when abuser and abused. Yeah. There's no question Francine wants a different life for herself. Along with the physical abuse, Mickey controls every aspect of her life down to whether or not she can have friends. Wow, yeah. And we've talked about how difficult it can be for women to leave their abuser, but it's worth saying again, escaping abuse can be extremely complex because abusers often use physical, financial, and psychological manipulation to trap their victims in a vicious cycle of control. Totally.

• 38:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Also, there's stigma around intimate partner violence, as well as societal or family pressures, like when you're, you want to leave, but you're, you have the kind of like Right. mother who might say, no, no, that's, look, Yeah. you've got to put up with him, or you're, you've got to make it so he doesn't do that. Totally. That's a society we've lived in for a long time. Yeah. The women have to fix their men's deep psychological issues. Right. Or take responsibility for them. The genuine love for your abuser can keep you in the, in that situation. But also, so does the degradation of the victim's spirit. As attorney and advocate Tiffany Smith explained to Retro Report, quote, "This big question

• 38:47Karen Kilgariff?

  remains in people's minds who have not been through this or do not understand this, which is why didn't you just leave? A woman doesn't go on a first date, get punched in the face, and stay with this person. What happens is very calculating, very slow. You're humiliated, you're threatened, you've been told over and over again you're worthless, and it builds and builds until leaving feels impossible. And more than that, it's deadly. Women are more likely to be killed immediately after leaving than at any other time."

• 39:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. Also, it's, of course, more difficult when children are in the equation because the abuser could threaten to harm them or take them away, or the victim might not be able to provide for independent life outside of the home. There's all that to be considered, but then, at this time, when Francine was going through it, there's huge financial and social barriers, making it harder for women to establish their independence. And that essentially forces the victim to become reliant on their abuser.

• 39:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. It's so calculated.

• 39:49Karen Kilgariff?

  But you're right. For example, before the passage of the Equal Credit Opportunity Act in 1974, most women can't open a credit card or get a loan in their own name at most banks in the country without a male cosigner. And again, that restriction, that discrimination, was legal until the mid-'70s.

• 40:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 40:09Karen Kilgariff?

  It's so, that one is such a mind blower when you tell the young women of today stuff like that. Where it's like, I was four years old when it became legal for women to have their own credit card without their husband's name on it.

• 40:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Jesus.

• 40:22Karen Kilgariff?

  That's fucking ridiculous.

• 40:24Georgia Hardstark?

  That is.

• 40:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Also, this was a time when there are virtually no emergency resources for women experiencing domestic violence, like shelters or organizations that are geared toward the problem specifically. They basically don't exist in a meaningful way. This leaves Francine with no options, no support.

• 40:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 40:45Karen Kilgariff?

  With all of that in mind, in 1971, Francine manages to successfully file for divorce.

• 40:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 40:51Karen Kilgariff?

  And essentially, this is out of pure desperation, she has to legally separate from Mickey to access the social programs that will help keep her family housed and fed.

• 41:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 41:02Karen Kilgariff?

  So she, it's basically like, that's the only option, which then, in that, what a horrible, like, a puzzle to be in at that time. So it's like, oh, so you, if you have a piece of shit husband like this at that time, and you will, it will require you to have these social services.

• 41:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 41:20Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, you have to break up with him first. That's because you're, it's, because it's on you, what he's doing.

• 41:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Not that you can just go do that. It's like, we're keeping it from you.

• 41:29Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 41:30Georgia Hardstark?

  In a way that's just like, yeah, it's a puzzle.

• 41:32Karen Kilgariff?

  That only punishes the victim. Yeah. Mickey's forced to move out of the family home, but he ignores this concept of divorce at all. Francine says, quote, "Things were no different than before. Mickey came and went as he pleased."

• 41:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 41:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Then, weeks after this divorce is finalized, Mickey gets into a car accident that almost kills him. He breaks several bones, he suffers a serious head injury, he winds up in a coma, he spends more than a month recovering in the hospital. Francine, after years of his abuse and manipulation, has been conditioned to prioritize his needs over her own, of course, always.

• 42:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 42:07Karen Kilgariff?

  And also to fear his retribution if she does not do that. So she visits Mickey in the hospital, and once he's released, he just moves back into the house with her.

• 42:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 42:17Karen Kilgariff?

  So that she can basically take care of him. Francine will later explain her decision, saying, quote, "I really felt trapped after this accident. I don't know why I felt so obligated to that man, but I did." Then the real hell began.

• 42:30Georgia Hardstark?

  This reminds me of that show, this TV show, Maids, with Margaret Qualley. Does a really good job of showcasing, like, the, just, why didn't you just leave? Or, why did you go back? It's just really the nuance and subtleties in it. It does a really great job of that.

• 42:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Right. It's like, you saw the Twilight Zone movie, right? From the 80s?

• 42:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Which one?

• 42:51Karen Kilgariff?

  It's the one that was like, it was an anthology, so it was a bunch of different little mini-movies and one big movie. But there's a part that's like, there's a racist that's being racist and like yelling slurs. And then he, off of the slur, he says to someone, is immediately dropped into the situation where that person of the slur, he is that person. Going through the worst of what that group of people went through. And it is mind-blowing. And it's that kind of thing where it's like, it would be a great hologram to send someone.

• 43:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Escape room?

• 43:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. It's like, oh, is that your question? Go find out.

• 43:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 43:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Yourself.

• 43:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 43:28Karen Kilgariff?

  So the problem is, Mickey is recovering from his car accident, drinking more than ever. The abuse toward Francine becomes more frequent. He beats her multiple times a week, sometimes for hours at a time.

• 43:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Jesus.

• 43:42Karen Kilgariff?

  In between his trips to the bar. She remembers how a few peaceful days would pass here and there, and then she'd live in terror of going to sleep at night when he wasn't there because, quote, "I might wake up being slugged."

• 43:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Jesus Christ.

• 43:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Here's another quote from her. Francine says, quote, "I thought, well, maybe I could kill myself, but then I thought if I kill myself, who's going to take care of the kids? Nobody could love them like me. I would conjure up schemes about how I would sneak off to the airport with the kids and just leave, but I would picture us sitting on a park bench with nowhere to go. Then I would get scared thinking about what Mickey would do if he found me." Yeah. So, several years go by, and then in 1977, when Francine is now just 29 years old. Oh, my God. She's subjected to one of Mickey's worst assaults after he learns that she is enrolled in classes to become a secretary. Wow. He forces her to burn her schoolbooks in the yard and threatens to sledgehammer

• 44:41Karen Kilgariff?

  the car so she can't get to school. So, he just loses it. Yeah. That same night, Francine prepares microwave dinners for the family, but Mickey isn't happy. So, this is the scene I can literally see in my head. Really? From when I was 14 years old. Yeah. Because it's kind of like, they don't spend a ton of time in the back and forth of like, the growing abuse thing. It's kind of like, you get what's happening. They do it. It's so realistic. And basically, it's that scene where she microwaves these dinners and puts them out, and he's drunk and he doesn't like it. And then, it's like, somebody filmed a real domestic abuse situation and put it on television. Wow. It was that wild and graphic and horrifying.

• 45:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. And like, nothing, they didn't pretty it up. Yeah. They didn't cut away. It was unbelievable and really scary. So, this is what he does. He dumps the meals from their containers onto the floor. He slams his fist so hard on the table. One of his kid's glasses of milk spills and breaks on the floor. Then, of course, right, that's the, that, there we go. Kids are sent upstairs as Francine is trying to clean up this mess. Mickey removes garbage from the garbage can and starts to smear it into her hair, and then he begins beating her. Francine can hear her kids crying upstairs and yelling down, "Mommy, are you all right?" So at one point during this assault, one of Francine's daughters ends up calling the police.

• 46:11Karen Kilgariff?

  By the time they arrive, he stopped beating her again because the police don't witness anything firsthand, they don't arrest him. This is despite Mickey threatening Francine's life right in front of them. One of the responding officers later testifies, quote, "He told her it was all over for her because she called me. He made numerous threats that he would kill her, and he made threats to me." What the fuck? Yeah. I'm sure for those cops too, they're like, "This is a drunken monster that we don't want to deal with." Yeah. And like, and what's gonna happen anyway? They're just gonna bring him back here. Like, they know the system, there's no process in place to fix this. Right. So like, they're just kind of like, "Well, this is your problem."

• 46:55Karen Kilgariff?

  That was probably the, like, morally easiest thing to do. Yeah. Is kind of be like that. But I'm sure then at this point, they know, it's just like, what do you, what is there to do now? Yeah. So, we can assume the cop talks Mickey down, or the cops talk Mickey down. They make a report, they leave. His abuse continues. He forces Francine to make a new dinner for him. Then he rapes her. Afterwards, he falls asleep in a drunken haze. Francine, though, is done. She says, quote, "I was thinking about all the things that had happened to me, all the times he'd hurt me, how he'd hurt the kids. I stood still for a moment, hesitating, and a voice urged me on.

• 47:38Karen Kilgariff?

  It whispered, 'Do it, do it, do it.'" So she puts her kids in her car, then she goes to the garage and gets a can of gasoline, she goes to the bedroom where Mickey's passed out, douses the area around the bed, lights a match, tosses it at the gas-soaked floor, runs out of the house as it goes up in flames. Holy shit. And now she's in the car with her kids, she drives straight to the county jail, and turns herself in. Wow. I mean, how fucking desperate do you have to be that that is your best option? Yeah. That's all you can do. Yeah. That's all you could do. Not just leave. There's no just leaving. No. That's, this is my only option. Yeah. You knew it. I, like, going to the cops and being like... This is the best-case scenario for my kids.

• 48:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, I finished it. Nobody else seemed to be able to.

• 48:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Jesus.

• 48:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Firefighters, of course, are deployed to the Hughes' home. By the time they get there, Mickey's dead. And Francine Hughes is charged with first-degree murder and put in jail. Francine willingly and admittedly murdered her husband while he was sleeping. As one officer put it, "There was no question that the system had failed her, but in our system, the excuse for system failures is not to commit first-degree murder." Well, thank you for that wonderful lesson. It's like calling a system failure, it's like, this isn't like, we had a gas leak.

• 48:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 49:00Karen Kilgariff?

  This is a man who, for a decade, punches his wife in the face, and everyone knows it, and no one does shit about it.

• 49:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. No one's going to fucking help you. No one's going to do anything to stop it.

• 49:12Karen Kilgariff?

  So Francine spends the next several months in jail until her trial begins. And when it does, the stakes are enormous, because she isn't just fighting for her freedom, she's also up against the very 1970s attitudes that blame women for their circumstances, and look for any excuse not to hold male abusers accountable for the sum total of their actions, which is their murders.

• 49:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 49:37Karen Kilgariff?

  So when the case begins, Francine's lawyer argues that after years of Mickey's relentless abuse, Francine experienced temporary insanity when she killed him. The timing of this case is very important, because at the time, feminist groups had already spent years trying to raise awareness and organize around the issue of spousal abuse and domestic violence. And writer Faith McNulty will later put it, quote, "Had it occurred a decade earlier, the facts underlying the crime would probably have never been widely known. But in the 70s, there was a new willingness to listen to a story such as Francine's."

• 50:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow, interesting.

• 50:12Karen Kilgariff?

  And I think that new willingness had to do with, basically, enough women, like you're saying, like, women talking to each other.

• 50:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 50:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Women telling each other, "You're not alone, and you don't have to stay there, and we'll figure something out." Or, or just like, maybe, the basic empowerment of, "You can have a checking account."

• 50:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 50:33Karen Kilgariff?

  And maybe, figure something out. Because you think of stories after this, where women being abused, saving money in like, a secret checking account to get away.

• 50:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. Because financial abuse is such a great way to control someone.

• 50:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 50:47Georgia Hardstark?

  It's just, you control everything.

• 50:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Right. So obviously, this case becomes national news. The big networks fled Francine's small Michigan town. And the New York Times writes that Francine's case becomes a, quote, "cause celebre" for the feminist movement.

• 51:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Yay feminists.

• 51:05Karen Kilgariff?

  But also, I don't know. I just get the tone of like, oh, it's a cause celebre. It's like, she had to kill him to get him to stop hitting her.

• 51:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Right, right.

• 51:16Karen Kilgariff?

  In the courtroom, a jury of two men and 10 women eventually hand down their verdict. They agree that Francine suffered from temporary insanity and she is acquitted for the murder of her husband.

• 51:27Georgia Hardstark?

  How did they get that jury?

• 51:29Karen Kilgariff?

  Like- Those lawyers.

• 51:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Those lawyers were good.

• 51:32Karen Kilgariff?

  But I also wonder if like, those lawyers were good, but the people, I mean, wherever this was tried, it'd be very, I mean, I would, I want to read this book.

• 51:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 51:42Karen Kilgariff?

  But that the people in that community, not only like, knew of him and knew this reality, but so many people have lived through this in some way.

• 51:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 51:56Karen Kilgariff?

  If like, if you're not the spouse, then you're the kid watching that happen. Like, plenty of people being like, yeah, enough of this and enough of women going to jail because this is the only option they have.

• 52:08Georgia Hardstark?

  It's almost like that verdict was for all the women that came before her who didn't escape, or who were the ones who were killed.

• 52:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 52:16Georgia Hardstark?

  It's like, that verdict is the message of no more.

• 52:20Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 52:20Georgia Hardstark?

  You know?

• 52:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes. So then, in 1980, writer Faith McNulty publishes the nonfiction book, The Burning Bed, all about Francine's life and about this case. And that, of course, draws more attention to the issue. Francine gets an $11,000 advance for this book, which is worth around $42,000 in today's money. And she uses it as a down payment for a house.

• 52:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, wow.

• 52:49Karen Kilgariff?

  So she can live with her kids and- Have a place to be safe. Oh, my God, how beautiful. But her life doesn't really change materially, except for the attention and the interest in the story. She still has to make ends meet. So she actually ends up getting some secretarial work, and then she will later operate a forklift in a factory for a couple of years before she gets laid off. When this happens, Francine goes through a dark time, and she says, quote, "I went a little crazy. I was partying almost every night, trying to escape from something. I drank a lot, and I was taking speed. It was like I was trying to self-destruct." Yeah. But it's also, you didn't have a childhood. Right.

• 53:30Karen Kilgariff?

  You basically went from, like, sophomore year of high school into a nightmare. Yeah. Nightmare marriage. Absolutely. Family situation like. The trauma that you are not dealing with. Yeah, you know she wasn't in therapy. No. She wasn't, there was talking to anybody about it. It was like, oh, now, because it's the abuse, then it's the murder, then it's the infamy. Right. There's so much to deal with. Yeah. That, of course, you just were like, I need to blot it out. Yeah. This is when Francine meets a man named Robert, who'd recently been released from prison after serving 10 years for armed robbery. The nature of this relationship isn't exactly clear, though a deep dive People Magazine

• 54:14Karen Kilgariff?

  article from the 80s suggests it wasn't a wonderful relationship. They move in together two weeks after meeting. They get married a month after that, at Robert's insistence. And that whirlwind pace can also be a red flag in some relationships. Francine's marriage to Robert strains her relationship with her children. Based on reporting, it seems like they don't, at the very best, they don't like him. Right. And troublingly, one of her daughters will accuse him of sexual abuse, which he denies. The National Domestic Violence Hotline points out that one risk factor for being in a toxic relationship is a lack of exposure to healthy relationship models or examples. Yeah. And, of course, she meets this guy at a very vulnerable time in her life, so it's

• 54:58Karen Kilgariff?

  not like, she's like, okay, I also deserve this. Totally. But I went through that. Totally. In any case, as all of that is playing out in Francine's actual life, the book The Burning Bed gets adapted into the made-for-TV movie that airs on NBC, starring Farrah Fawcett as Francine. Over 75 million people watched this made-for-TV movie the night it premieres, including 14-year-old Karen Kilgariff and her mother, Pat Kilgariff, who kept going, "I don't think we should watch it." Right. I don't... This is Karen, this is very... Right. I don't think... Because it truly was like so graphic and like unlike anything ever really had been up until that point. Yeah.

• 55:41Karen Kilgariff?

  So, this made-for-TV movie of Francine's story kicks off a national conversation. And according to the New York Times, quote, "The number of shelters for battered women grew from a mere handful in 1977 to nearly 700 the year the Burning Bed was televised," which was 1984. Yeah. After this, the term Burning Bed Syndrome becomes the well-known shorthand for the trauma caused by domestic abuse. Wow. And then later, in his 2016 book, co-written with writer Alan Sepinwall, titled "TV, The Book," television critic Matt Zoller cites named The Burning Bed as the seventh greatest American TV movie of all time. Holy shit.

• 56:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Writing, quote, "The film was a landmark in terms of content depicting domestic violence as an unambiguous horror and a human rights violation." Yeah. Sites also praised the performance of Farrah Fawcett as "one of the finest in the history of TV movies." Holy shit. It was crazy. I just wish... The difference between Charlie's Angel, Farrah Fawcett, like supermodel, the hair, the whole thing, she was just a girl on a poster and all of a sudden she was like, "Watch this." That's incredible. "Watch this." It was amazing. So, basically Francine and Robert eventually leave Michigan for the South. There Francine gets her nursing degree. Oh, wow.

• 57:06Karen Kilgariff?

  The couple lives in Tennessee and then in Alabama. Francine finds work in nursing homes and as an in-home caregiver. And she passes away from complications related to pneumonia in 2017. Francine Hughes was 69 years old at the time of her death. Her family members have said that she rarely talked about the case. She was once quoted as saying, "People look at me like they're trying to figure me out. I don't feel like I have to explain myself to anybody and I don't need pity or sympathy. I'm just an ordinary person." Francine was an ordinary person whose nightmarish home life was tragically also not unique. Instead Francine was a victim of a much larger systemic problem that persists today.

• 57:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Domestic and intimate partner violence can and does affect anyone regardless of a person's age, sex, education level, or economic background. Within a year of her trial, Michigan passed new laws dealing with spousal abuse. And since then, more have been introduced that prioritize victim safety. Of course, there are now shelters, hotlines, and organizations dedicated to supporting survivors of domestic violence and/or intimate partner violence. Still, Francine's case isn't the norm despite hand-wringing shortly after her verdict about how women would now be able to shoot their husbands and get off scot-free. The reality is that in the years since, there have been several high-profile cases where

• 58:36Karen Kilgariff?

  a survivor has been jailed for killing their abuser.

• 58:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, there's a lot of those.

• 58:40Karen Kilgariff?

  According to the National Domestic Violence Hotline, 12 million people are affected by intimate partner violence each year. One in four American women and one in seven American men over the age of 18 have been the victim of serious physical violence by an intimate partner. One in four and one in seven.

• 58:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Like, there's everyone you know. If you don't think you know anyone that has gone through this, then they're keeping it a secret and not telling you. It's solid as.

• 59:09Karen Kilgariff?

  If you or someone you know is experiencing domestic abuse or intimate partner violence, please remember you're not alone. They're not alone. Help is available. You can call the National Domestic Violence Hotline at 1-800-799-SAFE. Their website is thehotline.org, just thehotline.org. And they offer information on warning signs of abuse, resources in your state, how to support someone you love that might be experiencing intimate partner violence. They're free, it's confidential, it's available 24/7. I'm grateful that we live in a time where I can pass that information on to all of

• 59:48Karen Kilgariff?

  you as a woman who has her own checking account and owns her own home and has some goddamn options in this world. And that is the story of Francine Hughes and the Burning Bed murder.

• 1:00:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow, I had never heard that. I had never heard of it.

• 1:00:05Karen Kilgariff?

  At all?

• 1:00:05Georgia Hardstark?

  No.

• 1:00:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, I thought I was like, when I was talking about it, I thought I, I thought you were just like, yeah, yeah, I know.

• 1:00:11Georgia Hardstark?

  No, as soon as you, I was like, as soon as she says the name of the, um, made for TV movie, I'll know what she's talking about. I never heard of it.

• 1:00:19Karen Kilgariff?

  God, it's such a specific, I mean,

• 1:00:22Georgia Hardstark?

  I was four.

• 1:00:24Karen Kilgariff?

  But it's also such a specific, it's all, I can also remember the Mothers Against Drunk Driving made for TV movie.

• 1:00:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 1:00:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Those weird like era changing ideas of like, we don't have to do this anymore.

• 1:00:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 1:00:37Karen Kilgariff?

  Then it's very mothers centric. It's female centric, in my opinion.

• 1:00:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Of course.

• 1:00:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Incredible. Great job.

• 1:00:44Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, thank you.

• 1:00:44Georgia Hardstark?

  For telling that important story.

• 1:00:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Thank you. Thank you, Mary McGlashan, for being such a good researcher.

• 1:00:51Georgia Hardstark?

  The holidays are coming, which means we'll all be spending more time away from home.

• 1:00:55Karen Kilgariff?

  Whether you're visiting family or doing something actually fun, you want to know your home is protected while you're away.

• 1:01:00Georgia Hardstark?

  That's why now is a good time to think about home security with SimpliSafe.

• 1:01:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Unlike traditional security systems that alert you after a break in starts, SimpliSafe is designed to help stop intruders before they get inside. These days, you're worried about your house, you're out of town, and then something comes up and you get to look on your phone and SimpliSafe is going to show you not only the video of like, it's a raccoon at your front door, but also that they have staff that's sitting there, they already know. And if it was something different or worse, they would have already been on it.

• 1:01:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, I really think that's invaluable peace of mind that just like relying on your neighbors, paying attention is not going to give you. We've partnered with SimpliSafe to offer our listeners their biggest savings of the year. 70% off your new system with professional monitoring when you visit simplisafe.com/mfm.

• 1:01:47Karen Kilgariff?

  That's simplisafe.com/mfm. And when you order, write in MFM at checkout and it tells them we sent you and it really helps the show.

• 1:01:55Georgia Hardstark?

  SimpliSafe, ahead of crime, in real time.

• 1:01:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Goodbye. The most annoying thing about dinner is that you have to keep making it.

• 1:02:02Georgia Hardstark?

  And every single time, you have to figure out what you're going to eat.

• 1:02:05Karen Kilgariff?

  It's time to take some of that work off your plate with Hungry Root.

• 1:02:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Hungry Root is like having your own personal shopper and nutritionist all wrapped into one. They'll take care of the weekly grocery shopping and recommend groceries and meals tailored to you. It's so nice having Hungry Root just take care of the thinking part of dinner, because I swear, like, every 10 minutes of my life is, what's for dinner? I'm so sick of it. And so I love when you can just open your fridge and be like, okay, great. We have roasted chicken with fries and broccoli from Hungry Root. Or wagyu ribeye steak with green goddess potatoes. Great, let's go with that. I don't want to think about it. That sounds amazing, and it's easy.

• 1:02:43Karen Kilgariff?

  It's easy and it's good for you. You're not just ordering another pizza. You're gonna love Hungry Root.

• 1:02:47Georgia Hardstark?

  For a love at a time, get 40% off your first order, plus get a free item in every box for life.

• 1:02:52Karen Kilgariff?

  Go to hungryroot.com/mfm and use code MFM.

• 1:02:56Georgia Hardstark?

  That's hungryroot.com/mfm, code MFM, to get 40% off your first box and a free item of your choice for life. Goodbye.

• 1:03:05Karen Kilgariff?

  We've all had moments where dealing with healthcare or insurance feels completely overwhelming.

• 1:03:09Georgia Hardstark?

  You're sick, worried about someone you love, trying to understand what comes next, and suddenly you're spending hours on hold, filling out paperwork and trying to figure out who to call.

• 1:03:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Research shows patients spend the equivalent of an eight-hour workday every month coordinating their own care.

• 1:03:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Nobody hands you a roadmap when you're dealing with a diagnosis or ongoing health issues.

• 1:03:28Karen Kilgariff?

  That's why there's Solace Health.

• 1:03:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Solace provides personal healthcare advocates who average 16 years of healthcare experience and can help you get answers fast.

• 1:03:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Think of them as someone in your corner who understands the healthcare system and can handle the logistics while you focus on your health.

• 1:03:42Georgia Hardstark?

  They can help with appointments, insurance denials, medical bills, treatment options, and understanding doctor recommendations.

• 1:03:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Research shows 92% of patients report a positive impact on their care from working with an advocate.

• 1:03:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Advocacy improves outcomes, and Solace advocates are covered by insurance nationwide.

• 1:03:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Eligibility varies by insurance plan.

• 1:04:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Advocates do not provide medical or legal advice or services. Must be 18 years or older.

• 1:04:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Go to solacehealth.com/murder to see if you qualify.

• 1:04:08Georgia Hardstark?

  It takes about two minutes, and it's covered by insurance.

• 1:04:11Karen Kilgariff?

  That's S-O-L-A-C-E, health.com/murder. Goodbye.

• 1:04:18Georgia Hardstark?

  All right, well, we're gonna change gears.

• 1:04:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 1:04:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Change gears?

• 1:04:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:24Georgia Hardstark?

  So I think they'll change?

• 1:04:25Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, it is.

• 1:04:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay. Well, we're gonna do it. And I'm gonna tell you what I think might be the oldest story we've done, maybe. No, you did a really old one once.

• 1:04:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Mm-hmm. Remember when I did the weather in 14, like 13? It was like when the weather was so bad for a year and a half that everyone just like died and there was no food and stuff?

• 1:04:45Georgia Hardstark?

  This is fucking older.

• 1:04:46Karen Kilgariff?

  No!

• 1:04:47Georgia Hardstark?

  This is older.

• 1:04:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Are you about to tell me a Bible story?

• 1:04:49Georgia Hardstark?

  I'm gonna tell you a biblical fucking story.

• 1:04:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah!

• 1:04:51Georgia Hardstark?

  I'm not. I'm gonna, but we are gonna go back to the early days of the Roman Empire.

• 1:04:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Girl!

• 1:04:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Is that the earliest? Like Gladiator fucking days?

• 1:05:00Karen Kilgariff?

  It's pretty early.

• 1:05:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:01Karen Kilgariff?

  It's pretty early.

• 1:05:01Georgia Hardstark?

  And it does sound like something straight out of Game of Thrones and actually was probably a likely source of inspiration for George R.R. Martin. This is the story of a woman that, what? You're gonna guess?

• 1:05:13Karen Kilgariff?

  I don't know. I'm just, yeah, I'm ready for it.

• 1:05:15Georgia Hardstark?

  This is the story of a woman some people describe as history's first documented serial killer.

• 1:05:20Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh!

• 1:05:22Georgia Hardstark?

  This is the story of Locusta, the poisoner of Rome.

• 1:05:25Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, yes.

• 1:05:26Georgia Hardstark?

  You ready for her?

• 1:05:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, please.

• 1:05:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, let's do it. So there are very limited primary sources about Locusta. She's only briefly mentioned in surviving histories of Rome. Of course, it's just like everyone's moved on from her.

• 1:05:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Nobody cares.

• 1:05:41Karen Kilgariff?

  They're over it.

• 1:05:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, they're over it.

• 1:05:42Karen Kilgariff?

  All Italians are over it.

• 1:05:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Let's not talk about it.

• 1:05:44Karen Kilgariff?

  No one was talking about her when I went to Italy.

• 1:05:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. Well, but the main sources for the story were an episode of adorable podcast called History for Weirdos, which is super lovely. It's this married couple. They're very smart. And an article from All That's Interesting by Genevieve Carlton. So, we don't know much about Locusta's early life. We know she was born in Gaul, G-A-U-L. This is the region of the Roman Empire that overlaps with modern day France and Belgium. Like, you knew that, though.

• 1:06:13Karen Kilgariff?

  I honestly thought Germany, and I was like, you should say Germany and just sound really smart. And then I was like, the other voice that's finally grown in my head that goes, don't do it.

• 1:06:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Don't even try.

• 1:06:22Karen Kilgariff?

  You don't know these things.

• 1:06:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Sucked. Don't even try.

• 1:06:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Sucked! You're kidding yourself, sucked.

• 1:06:28Georgia Hardstark?

  She's born sometime around 1480, so, and of course you know this as well, either at the end of the reign of Augustus or the beginning of the reign of Ty...

• 1:06:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Tiberius.

• 1:06:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes!

• 1:06:38Karen Kilgariff?

  What's it, Tiberius?

• 1:06:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah!

• 1:06:40Karen Kilgariff?

  It's because I watched, uh, what's it called?

• 1:06:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Gladiator 2?

• 1:06:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Starring Paul Mescal. It's the PBS series from the 70s.

• 1:06:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, no.

• 1:06:51Karen Kilgariff?

  And I keep wanting to take a leggelo.

• 1:06:52Georgia Hardstark?

  But you got it right. So congratulations.

• 1:06:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, that does.

• 1:06:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Something stuck.

• 1:06:55Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, some, it feels good.

• 1:06:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, you should be happy for yourself.

• 1:06:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 1:06:58Georgia Hardstark?

  So these two men were Rome's first and second emperors.

• 1:07:01Karen Kilgariff?

  The whole, the whole first syllable.

• 1:07:02Georgia Hardstark?

  No. I wouldn't, I wouldn't have gotten Tiberius if I had heard Tiber. Isn't I Claudius Brett just on that?

• 1:07:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Thank you. Thank you. I wondered where he was. I Claudius.

• 1:07:13Georgia Hardstark?

  There we go. Um, and before them, Rome had been a republic. We're not going to get into the weeds about Rome. Can we not?

• 1:07:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, we cannot, for sure.

• 1:07:21Georgia Hardstark?

  I'd really rather not.

• 1:07:22Karen Kilgariff?

  But I will tell you that just this one thing.

• 1:07:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:25Karen Kilgariff?

  I was so blown away when I went to Rome.

• 1:07:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:29Karen Kilgariff?

  To see these, uh, places that they used to meet. They're fucking huge.

• 1:07:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:35Karen Kilgariff?

  So like, you know, when you're thinking about it and you're just like, oh, friends, Romans, countrymen type of stuff. And you're like, oh, they're probably like on a weird little rock. Or you're thinking of like some Monty Python movie or whatever. It's like, they're all standing in a circle in a marketplace.

• 1:07:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:49Karen Kilgariff?

  No, no, no. These things were like 15 story buildings.

• 1:07:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 1:07:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Like.

• 1:07:54Georgia Hardstark?

  And they're still standing.

• 1:07:55Karen Kilgariff?

  Huge. And they're still standing. And then there's like metal statuary on top of that. Like, it was.

• 1:08:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Mind blowing.

• 1:08:03Karen Kilgariff?

  What a time.

• 1:08:03Georgia Hardstark?

  I want to go. But stop it because we're not getting into the weeds.

• 1:08:07Karen Kilgariff?

  I'm totally done.

• 1:08:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Essentially, though, the empire emerged after a series of civil wars destabilized a republic. Julius Caesar, your BFF. A senator tried to seize power and install himself as a dictator, which is why he was famously assassinated. But Augustus, the first emperor, was his nephew. And he eventually overpowered the senators who had conspired against Caesar. So this is where we are now.

• 1:08:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 1:08:30Georgia Hardstark?

  So right around this time, this is where Locustia ends up in the city of Rome. She's a young woman and I looked at the like one or two drawings of her that I don't know what time period they're from. They could be modern, they could be old, but I cast her as Jessica Chastain.

• 1:08:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 1:08:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Just for fun.

• 1:08:48Karen Kilgariff?

  And interesting.

• 1:08:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, that's just my, was my immediate thought.

• 1:08:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Got it.

• 1:08:53Georgia Hardstark?

  And it's likely that she had been enslaved or brought there as a captive of Julius Caesar's campaign in Gaul. So had the campaign where she's from and she ends up there. So it's probably brought over for like slavery purposes. Somehow during her upbringing, she learned a huge amount about herbs, plants and poison making.

• 1:09:14Georgia Hardstark?

  But there's no record of how. It's likely that this knowledge would have been passed down within her family as it was. And this period Locusta is born into, the end of the Republic and the beginning of the Empire, is the beginning of what's actually a pretty great fucking time to be a Roman citizen. It sounds pretty sweet. It's where they get the saying, "bread and circuses," which I've never heard before, but Ally thankfully put in here.

• 1:09:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:36Georgia Hardstark?

  And you're nodding like you've heard of it.

• 1:09:37Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, it's the thing that they talk about where like, that's how they distract us. And then that everybody's corrupt in the government and they give us our bread and circuses.

• 1:09:44Georgia Hardstark?

  That's what it says here. "The emperors keep the people happy by providing free food and entertainment, including the gladiators, and then they fuck off and do their own thing."

• 1:09:53Karen Kilgariff?

  And then we all fight about like the Kim Kardashian of gladiators.

• 1:09:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 1:09:57Karen Kilgariff?

  And we're all over here doing-

• 1:09:58Georgia Hardstark?

  And they got more food and circuses than I did. And how dare, that person doesn't deserve as many circuses because they're lower than me. And I'm, yeah, and then we fight with each other and ignore the fucking oligarchs.

• 1:10:09Karen Kilgariff?

  And the billionaires don't pay taxes.

• 1:10:10Georgia Hardstark?

  And the billionaires don't pay taxes and corporations run the fucking country.

• 1:10:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:15Georgia Hardstark?

  What, where are we?

• 1:10:16Karen Kilgariff?

  What Roman Empire, you say? Okay, I guess.

• 1:10:19Georgia Hardstark?

  So this is where kind of the beginning of the opulent, technologically advanced city of Rome, the expanding empire around it. It's good to be fucking wealthy in Rome at this time. But of course, at this point in time, it's not good to be a person living in one of the areas Rome is conquering. But within the city of Rome, even an average Roman citizen, life's pretty stable and conditions are comfortable, you know, comparatively.

• 1:10:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Is no Victorian England?

• 1:10:46Karen Kilgariff?

  This is the two times I know.

• 1:10:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Pretty much. In the 70s.

• 1:10:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes. This period of time is called the Pax Romana and it will last about 200 years. And then the Empire will decline and fall. And after that, it's the Dark Ages. Super fun. And then it's lights out for Europe until the Renaissance.

• 1:11:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:02Georgia Hardstark?

  So that's where we're at right now. It's like time of wine and roses.

• 1:11:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Hell, yeah.

• 1:11:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Did I just make that up?

• 1:11:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Lot of parades, lot of like, right?

• 1:11:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Lot of flowers being dropped down from high.

• 1:11:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes. It's like, this is around when the movie Gladiator takes place or a little, Gladiator's a little later, but around this time. But while normal people are enjoying themselves, the ruling class is still constantly full of infighting, jockeying for power and assassinating one another. It's kind of their thing. This presents an opportunity for a girl from Gaul with a deep knowledge of plants and poisons. You gotta use what you know.

• 1:11:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Also, why don't we know it anymore? That's like, is that what's in the Vatican's secret library?

• 1:11:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Ooh, it's like all the sorcery plant fucking recipes.

• 1:11:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, all the stuff that really used to help us.

• 1:11:52Georgia Hardstark?

  So, in her early career in Rome, Locusta works with two other women to make poisons for wealthy clients. The three of them are often referred to as sorceresses. Locusta becomes independently wealthy for doing this. Fucking get it, girl. She would have used hashtag boss bitch if she had Instagram.

• 1:12:09Karen Kilgariff?

  Do it.

• 1:12:09Georgia Hardstark?

  You know? Locusta makes a name for herself.

• 1:12:14Karen Kilgariff?

  She's boss bitching, but writing it on the wall in Roman numerals somehow.

• 1:12:19Georgia Hardstark?

  But I can't read. She makes a name for herself. She's hired by members of Rome's elite to help them carry out assassinations in their various power struggles. And by 54 AD, when she's about 40 years old, she's been arrested and convicted on multiple occasions. However, her powerful clients get her off every time.

• 1:12:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:39Georgia Hardstark?

  We don't know about all the poisons Locusta uses, unfortunately. Those are secrets now. But records show that she used belladonna or deadly nightshade, as well as arsenic and the litany of other poisons. I think you'd have to imagine Sally from The Night Before Christmas. You know what I mean?

• 1:12:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, just a skinny pale girl that's like, I like to combine things.

• 1:13:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Little of this. And it sounds like she also knows how to create new poisons from different combinations, so she's fucking smart.

• 1:13:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Also, I didn't realize that until now. It's like, oh yeah, there was all kinds of poisonings happening, like... Palace intrigues type, type stuff.

• 1:13:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Those rich people aren't just gonna have poison on, like, they have to buy it from somewhere.

• 1:13:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. They don't make it themselves.

• 1:13:20Karen Kilgariff?

  I just realized that, yeah.

• 1:13:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Poisoners.

• 1:13:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:23Georgia Hardstark?

  So by this point, we're on Rome's fourth emperor, Claudius. Augustus, the first emperor, had essentially consolidated power and set Rome on this path to growth and conquest, and then there were two other emperors until Claudius. Claudius marries his niece, a woman named Agrippina, who had already been married, like, oh my god, drama, and whose first husband had died, possibly by poisoning.

• 1:13:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:13:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Agrippina has a son from that previous marriage. His name, you wanna try to guess?

• 1:13:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:56Georgia Hardstark?

  You don't have to. No pressure.

• 1:13:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Does it start with an L? Okay, start it and I'm gonna say-

• 1:14:00Georgia Hardstark?

  You're gonna know the name, and so you're gonna think, I wish I had known.

• 1:14:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 1:14:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Nero.

• 1:14:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:14:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay. So Nero, obviously, doesn't really have a particularly strong claim to the Roman throne, because he's the son of the second wife, you know what I mean?

• 1:14:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:15Georgia Hardstark?

  But Agrippina is like, but let's change that.

• 1:14:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 1:14:18Georgia Hardstark?

  I'm the new wife, or I'm the wife, let me figure this out. Agrippina convinces Claudius to change his will, making her son Nero the heir to the throne. This is in spite of Claudius having a biological son. And after Claudius changes his will, Agrippina wants to make sure that he doesn't have time in life to change it back.

• 1:14:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 1:14:41Georgia Hardstark?

  You know what I'm saying? So she turns to Locusta, who by this time is well-known among Roman elites. Agrippina and Locusta wait for a day when Claudius's most loyal servant has the day off. They had days off back then.

• 1:14:53Karen Kilgariff?

  That's nice.

• 1:14:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Interesting. They poison a dish of mushrooms, which is Claudius's favorite food, and it's unclear if the mushrooms themselves are poisonous, or if she applies poison to the mushrooms. We don't know how she sauteed and chauntayed. Other people say he was actually poisoned by belladonna brewed into a tea. Regardless, the story goes that Claudius gets sick, his doctor comes to see him, and I don't know why every single doctor who went to see any patient ever was, back then, wasn't first like, you're being poisoned.

• 1:15:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 1:15:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Because everyone's fucking being poisoned.

• 1:15:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Right. It was so common, especially in the palace.

• 1:15:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 1:15:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Like, kinda should be, number one, number two is like gout, or whatever, you know?

• 1:15:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 1:15:32Georgia Hardstark?

  I don't know. What do they get? The doctor gives Claudius a feather to stick down his throat to induce vomiting. That's doctors then. I mean, that's also, but that's how they did it in the vomitorium. Right, right, right. But the feather has been coated in more poison. And we don't know if Agrippina did this, or if the doctor was involved. However. They're locking it down. Yeah. Okay. Claudius dies. Okay. After Claudius dies, Agrippina, who hired Locustus, has Locustus jailed for the poisoning, which seems like a bad idea, because you just talk, right? And you're like, oh, I didn't do this on my own. Right. I don't get it. It's a weird move, clearly, like a paranoia move. Yeah. Because also, it's all gonna be down to her, obviously. Totally. Yeah. Like, get rid of the evidence, but like, the evidence can talk.

• 1:16:17Georgia Hardstark?

  But this doesn't matter, because her son Nero quickly frees her, because he also needs her help. Yeah. So Claudius's biological son is a man named? Give me the first letter. B. R. Britannicus. Oh. I wouldn't have gotten that. No, I'm not gonna. He's named this because the Romans had recently expanded the empire to Britain around his time of birth. I don't know. Britannicus. Sure. My name's Georgia. Like, I don't, what am I gonna say about that? I can't. You can't. I truly can't. Britannicus still has a powerful claim to the Roman throne. Sadly, he's only 13 years old when his pops dies. In 55 AD, Nero pardons Locustus and quickly hires her to kill 13-year-old Britannicus.

• 1:17:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Which is like, just send him to a fucking island. They can't. It's always killing with them. So much killing. It's so much killing. He wants her to make his death appear to be of natural causes at 13. Locustus attempts to poison him with arsenic, but it doesn't work. And Nero has her flogged for this. Hmm. I don't think that's the best idea. Has Locustus flogged? Yeah. Oh, okay. But they try again. Nero throws a dinner party. Wine is served. The Romans would serve their wine diluted with water, blah, blah, blah. Basically, before Britannicus takes a sip of his wine, his taster, who specifically laid a test for poison, takes a sip, says it's fine, and then Britannicus is like, oh, top me off with that kind of, that water. Turns out, that was... Water was the poison.

• 1:17:44Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 1:17:44Georgia Hardstark?

  So the tester didn't drink it again. Britannicus drinks it. It's probably belladonna. And thing is Britannicus has epilepsy. The other people at the dinner party know this, so when he basically stops being able to speak, Nero's like, oh, he's just having a seizure. Which is like, again, let's start with poisoning.

• 1:18:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. In the, if you're like, well, there's the heir to the throne.

• 1:18:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:06Karen Kilgariff?

  I'm sure there's no problem.

• 1:18:07Georgia Hardstark?

  No, we're all fine.

• 1:18:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Britannicus is brought to another room to recover, but it's where he ultimately suffocates and dies at thirteen. According to lore, the poison Locusta used was known by the Romans to turn a victim's skin red. And Britannicus is buried very quickly after his murder. This is so Game of Thrones.

• 1:18:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, right.

• 1:18:28Georgia Hardstark?

  With his face painted with a white chalk to hide his red skin. People just aren't really paying attention, I feel like, back then.

• 1:18:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Or they're just not staring into that face maybe for very long.

• 1:18:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Or they're like, I'm not the one to say anything.

• 1:18:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, right. There's poisoners everywhere.

• 1:18:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Poisoners? That's the fucking king or whatever? And you're just like, that's not for me.

• 1:18:47Karen Kilgariff?

  I gotta tell you, if anybody wants to watch it, I Claudius is a pretty amazing. It's like old British incredible actors. Kind of is like they're doing a play on a TV stage.

• 1:18:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:59Karen Kilgariff?

  And all of this stuff is, like, the stakes are insane.

• 1:19:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 1:19:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:03Georgia Hardstark?

  I'm into it.

• 1:19:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Cause then it's like, if you live and you're the one that doesn't get poisoned, you get to have like all of Germany.

• 1:19:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 1:19:11Karen Kilgariff?

  You get to have, do you like Scotland? You can have it. We have, we have stuff all the way up in Ireland.

• 1:19:16Georgia Hardstark?

  But then someone's coming for you too.

• 1:19:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:18Georgia Hardstark?

  You know?

• 1:19:19Karen Kilgariff?

  That's right.

• 1:19:19Georgia Hardstark?

  You can't poison everyone who will ever poison you.

• 1:19:22Karen Kilgariff?

  I know.

• 1:19:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Something. But just because he has that chalk on his face, just before his burial, it starts to rain. Showing the red skin under the white chalk. So it's immediately known throughout Rome that Britannicus has been poisoned.

• 1:19:34Karen Kilgariff?

  Wow.

• 1:19:35Georgia Hardstark?

  There's also probably like a no snitching on, you know, Nero policy going on.

• 1:19:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh yeah, he'll kill you immediately.

• 1:19:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Absolutely.

• 1:19:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Like, just keep your mouth shut. Nero rewards Locusta for securing the throne for him. He pays her, he gives her land, and he ultimately tasks her with opening up a school to teach other people to be poisoners. It's like a happy ending.

• 1:19:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, that is really positive.

• 1:19:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. He also grants her immunity for all future crimes. Does that sound familiar?

• 1:20:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Not at all. Not in the least.

• 1:20:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Anyway, fast forward.

• 1:20:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Immunity.

• 1:20:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Some accounts say that Locusta is given enslaved people and prisoners to test her poisons on. That's just a rumor, and this is where the idea comes from, that she is the first known serial killer.

• 1:20:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Which is so funny, like, you don't think about, like, you think of serial killer as a recent thing.

• 1:20:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 1:20:27Georgia Hardstark?

  But it was probably happening a lot.

• 1:20:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Just the second, the first human brain that got a weird little

• 1:20:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:33Karen Kilgariff?

  screw fall out of it, type of thing. Sorry, that's an oversimplification.

• 1:20:38Georgia Hardstark?

  No, that sounds scientifically correct. From what I've read.

• 1:20:42Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, especially back then.

• 1:20:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:45Karen Kilgariff?

  It was much, before it was a sin, you know it happened all the time.

• 1:20:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Definitely. And some people say, at this point, she just starts poisoning people because she enjoys it. Sounds like she's good at it, you know? Not just as a hired assassin. We don't know much about what else happens to Locusta for about 15 years, until she's in her mid-50s. During this time, Nero has made a lot of enemies. In fact, during this time period, Nero actually murders his own mother.

• 1:21:09Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Who fucking put him in the throne.

• 1:21:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Like, thanks a lot.

• 1:21:12Karen Kilgariff?

  Just ungrateful.

• 1:21:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Little bastard.

• 1:21:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally. In 68 AD, Nero is unseated by a man named Galba and is forced to flee Rome.

• 1:21:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Sorry, but right there, if I was like, "Galba's now in charge?", I'd be like, "Yeah, no, this isn't gonna last."

• 1:21:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Why? Because you've never heard of it?

• 1:21:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Galba?

• 1:21:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:29Karen Kilgariff?

  That's not diddy-diddy-diss? You don't have any I U S at the end?

• 1:21:32Georgia Hardstark?

  No, right.

• 1:21:33Karen Kilgariff?

  It's fucking Galba? Oh, my God, it's over.

• 1:21:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Let's all get the fuck out of here.

• 1:21:38Karen Kilgariff?

  We gotta get out of Rome.

• 1:21:39Georgia Hardstark?

  And Nero dies by suicide shortly after this. The new emperor, your best friend, Galba, overturns Locusta's immunity, because that can be done as well.

• 1:21:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, we've heard.

• 1:21:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Mm-hmm. And this comes as part of a purge of all of Nero's closest advisors. So for 15 fucking years, Locusta was living the good life.

• 1:21:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:58Georgia Hardstark?

  And, you know, nothing lasts.

• 1:22:00Karen Kilgariff?

  No, it doesn't.

• 1:22:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Time is a construct.

• 1:22:03Karen Kilgariff?

  The pendulum swings and swings.

• 1:22:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Exactly, flat circle. Galba accuses Locusta of killing more than 400 people and sentences her to death. So she is executed, although it's not known exactly how. There are two legends. The story always begins with her being marched through the streets of Rome in chains.

• 1:22:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Shame.

• 1:22:22Georgia Hardstark?

  All of Game of Thrones.

• 1:22:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 1:22:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Some say she is then strangled, or burnt, or a combination of the two. Public executions are common in Rome and often take place during gladiator games. Like, there's that entertainment in circus that you wanted.

• 1:22:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:39Georgia Hardstark?

  In addition to burning, other methods of execution include crucifixion, which seems like it's reserved for special circumstances, as well as exposure to wild beasts. That's a hell no. I mean, they're all hell no.

• 1:22:53Karen Kilgariff?

  They're all pretty bad. But yeah, you'd just get thrown in a pit with a bunch of coyotes.

• 1:23:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, God. Well, anyway, that's the end of Locust's story as we know it, which there isn't a ton. Let's get Jessica Chastain on the line and fucking get them exactly right pictures. Fucking movie out here.

• 1:23:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Also, if you have a history podcast where you go into this part of Roman history in depth, I'll listen to it.

• 1:23:20Georgia Hardstark?

  I'm telling you, History for Weirdos, they clearly went to school, unlike us.

• 1:23:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Should I go there first?

• 1:23:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, they know what they're talking about.

• 1:23:28Karen Kilgariff?

  They're good explainers.

• 1:23:29Georgia Hardstark?

  They're good explainers and they like have details off the top of their mind in a way that I don't understand.

• 1:23:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Because they studied.

• 1:23:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Because they studied and probably didn't drink themselves into oblivion in their 30s, you know?

• 1:23:41Karen Kilgariff?

  I think the thing about people who learned a lot and stayed in school

• 1:23:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:45Karen Kilgariff?

  is that it's because they read books and got what was happening and then were like, oh, my God, this is a great factoid, which I feel like you and I are both the kind of people, had we not been born with these brains, we would have been those people. But like, the sitting in the seat and the being told what to do.

• 1:24:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally, the distractions and the...

• 1:24:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Time away from drinking, all of that.

• 1:24:08Georgia Hardstark?

  The disinterest, yeah. And I'm fine with that. We're not all going to be, we're not all supposed to be the same.

• 1:24:14Karen Kilgariff?

  No, but I feel like these days, you know, History for Weirdos, there are people who got really good at teaching because they understand what's interesting about history or like, that it's, here's how you bring into history to life.

• 1:24:27Georgia Hardstark?

  This podcast will kill you, great example.

• 1:24:29Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, so smart. Learning about that kind of stuff where it's like, oh, often we put a mental block up.

• 1:24:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:36Karen Kilgariff?

  It's like, oh, history, that's boring. It's like, it's so not boring.

• 1:24:39Georgia Hardstark?

  It's so not boring. I'm a big fan of history. I really am. And that is everything we know about the woman who was possibly the first serial killer, Locusta, poisoner of Rome.

• 1:24:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Wow, that was great.

• 1:24:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Thank you.

• 1:24:54Karen Kilgariff?

  If you want to dip into Roman, the Roman Empire every once in a while, to tell me about it, I am here for it.

• 1:25:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, we have to, there's a whole, there's a whole time period.

• 1:25:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Thousands and thousands.

• 1:25:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Thousands of years.

• 1:25:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Thousands of years ago.

• 1:25:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, well, good, I'm glad you liked that.

• 1:25:09Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, that was great.

• 1:25:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Thanks.

• 1:25:11Karen Kilgariff?

  Wonderful.

• 1:25:11Georgia Hardstark?

  All right, well, we did it, we got some beautiful, this has been a like, huge, well-rounded episode.

• 1:25:19Karen Kilgariff?

  And that's what we're like, you know what I mean? It's like, I feel like we're able to get in there and really produce.

• 1:25:26Georgia Hardstark?

  That's right.

• 1:25:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Everything is handed to us as we walk in the door. Every single thing is thought through.

• 1:25:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Except the ADHD, because we were born with it, baby. Can't hand that to me, can't hand that to you.

• 1:25:37Karen Kilgariff?

  Can't print that up on a copier in a different part of the building I've never seen.

• 1:25:41Georgia Hardstark?

  No, you can't.

• 1:25:42Karen Kilgariff?

  No.

• 1:25:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Uh, well, thank you guys for being here, being part of this, so appreciative.

• 1:25:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, we really love it. And one last thank you to all our ceramic.

• 1:25:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Ceramists.

• 1:25:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Ceramists, artists, for our ninth anniversary.

• 1:25:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Including Emily, AKA Pottery Mama, Missy, AKA Young Yenta, Sam Regal, with that beautiful mug, and Lindsay Cook, with the Altered Moments figurine.

• 1:26:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, so good.

• 1:26:10Georgia Hardstark?

  I've just been like talking to you this whole time and listening to you with these beautiful things behind your head, and I'm so distracted, and I keep just going, oh.

• 1:26:17Karen Kilgariff?

  You know what we do, is take these and put them down here, and put these things up here, so these guys get a little time in the sun.

• 1:26:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:26:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Right?

• 1:26:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Definitely, we're interior designers.

• 1:26:25Karen Kilgariff?

  We are, and we're gonna fill up these shelves with all of the beautiful, it's just so nice that we have the kind of listeners that, and you guys have been like this from day one.

• 1:26:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:26:34Karen Kilgariff?

  That like, we go like, hey, can we have a thing about something, hey, will you teach us about Roman Empire? And then it's like, boom, boom.

• 1:26:42Georgia Hardstark?

  That's my specialty.

• 1:26:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:26:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Boom, and I'm funny and creative.

• 1:26:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, it's incredible, and like, the response, the ceramic response is to the point where the post office is kind of mad at us.

• 1:26:52Georgia Hardstark?

  I knew they would be.

• 1:26:54Karen Kilgariff?

  It's wonderful, just like the early days when Georgia would go to her post office box.

• 1:26:59Georgia Hardstark?

  And they'd be like, what's murder? They'd get mad about the word murder, I'm being like, listen.

• 1:27:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Listen, it's been around for, at least since Locusta's time.

• 1:27:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Truly.

• 1:27:07Karen Kilgariff?

  So.

• 1:27:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Stay sexy. And don't get murdered. Goodbye. Elvis, do you want a cookie?

• 1:27:23Karen Kilgariff?

  This has been an Exactly Right Production.

• 1:27:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Our senior producer is Alejandra Keck.

• 1:27:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Our managing producer is Hannah Kyle Creighton.

• 1:27:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Our editor is Aristotle Acevedo.

• 1:27:32Karen Kilgariff?

  This episode was mixed by Liana Scolacci.

• 1:27:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Our researchers are Maren McClashern and Ally Elkin.

• 1:27:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Email your hometowns to [email protected].

• 1:27:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Follow the show on Instagram and Facebook at MyFavoriteMurder. Goodbye.

• 1:27:51Speaker 04

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• 1:28:25Speaker 05

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