Listen to This Before You Co-Sign That Loan (Dear Sugar Mama)

Buckle up because this week, Haley’s back with a Dear Sugar Mama to answer all of your most pressing questions about debt: the good, the bad, and the ugly. Haley opens the hood on co-signing a loan with a family member who then ghosts you, finding out your partner has opened a new checking account to hide his sports betting debts, leveraging good debt to make money, tackling medical debt, your friend who’s dodging that Venmo request, and more. Negotiating a medical bill? Use this free tool: https://www.mrsdowjones.com/free/medical-bills-faq Financial Tea with Mrs. Dow Jones is a Sony Music Entertainment production. Find more great podcasts from Sony Music Entertainment at sonymusic.com/podcasts and follow us at @sonypodcasts To bring your brand to life in this podcast, email [email protected] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  The other day I was going through my desk and I found a journal right from when I graduated and it had pen and paper, how much I spent each day. At this time, I think I was making around $40,000 and access cash flow was pretty tight. So I had to watch every penny. I think about how far we've come with technology and advancements to help us with this stuff. We don't need a journal with pen and paper anymore. The answers are out there and Monarch is one of those answers. Monarch is literally, it's like having a financial advisor in your pocket. So you can use AI to help see what you're spending. Monarch will help you have full visibility in your accounts. It will help you see your trends. It will help you set goals, map out big purchases.

• 0:45Speaker 00

  See if you're actually on track to where you wanted to be. You can ask Monarch's AI assistant, anything about your finances. It's like, hey, how much should I spend on travel last summer? Can I afford this vacation without touching my savings? You can spot things you wouldn't think about before, like, oh, hey, has my spending gone up? Or just inflation? I was using pen and paper. Now you can use tools, like a full financial advisor in your pocket. And that's called Monarch. So what you want to do is you want to go to monarch.com, use code trading. The first year of Monarch Core is half off at just 50 bucks. That's 50% off your first year. Just go to monarch.com with code trading.

• 1:29Haley Sacks?

  Okay, we all love to romanticize being your own boss, but even when you have a team, you still end up being the bookkeeper, the marketing department, and the person rearranging appointments at 11:00 PM. And that work isn't just annoying, it is expensive. And it's especially taxing for businesses that run on appointments. So if you own a business that takes bookings, this one's for you. Gloss Genius is the system that runs the operations for you behind the scenes. Scheduling, payments, admin handled automatically. Payment processing is a flat rate with zero hidden fees. And check out Rebook's clients on the spot. Clients can book in seconds too, so there's no login or separate app necessary. So you actually get more appointments.

• 2:12Haley Sacks?

  125,000 businesses already trust Gloss Genius to earn them more and save them time. Want to try it out for yourself? Go to glossgenius.com and use code FINANCIAL for 50% off your first two months of a premium plan.

• 2:31Haley Sacks?

  What's up, rich people? It's me, Haley, AKA Mrs. Dow Jones, and this is Financial Tea.

• 2:39Haley Sacks?

  What's up, rich people? It's me, Haley, AKA Mrs. Dow Jones, and this is Financial Tea, the podcast where I teach you how to build wealth with a side of market drama, money scandals, and of course, financial pop culture. Thank you for being here, sippers. Today is a very exciting episode. It's about debt. Please do not turn off the episode now that you know what it's about, because I know that debt is triggering. You know, there's good kinds, there's bad kinds, there's the kind that you're ignoring right now that's currently sitting in your Klarna account. I know that it feels like this emotional, intense issue. When you have it, you feel like it's like a personality flaw, but we're going to break all that down today because the truth is, it's not your fault if you are in debt, and it's not a financial death sentence either.

• 3:23Haley Sacks?

  So, we're going to hear from some real sippers who are dealing with debt and who have some very interesting questions. The tea is hot today. And then, we're going to go through how to get out of it, because if you have a plan, you don't have to be in debt forever. Today, we're going to stop the tears and we're going to start the strategy, okay? Also, if you are in debt, I just want to be clear, it's really not your fault. Like, I talk about this a lot in my book, Future Rich Person, The New Rules of Building Wealth, but we are living in the era of frictionless finance, and it has truly never been easier to spend all your money. Like, think about it for our parents' generation. They had a lot of friction. If they wanted to buy something, if they want to have like a real shopping addiction, they had to put in work.

• 4:08Haley Sacks?

  They had to physically drive to a store, pull out a checkbook, or hand over like cold, hard cash, and actually watch the money leave their hands. There was like always this psychological ouch involved in every single transaction, and I just feel like today, that friction is gone, and it has screwed us over. Like, this whole Apple Pay, like Apple be paying vibe, where you can just scan your Face ID and buy a $2,000 couch while you're half asleep in bed, not great for the wallet. And I truly believe that when money is invisible, debt becomes inevitable. So we're going to talk about the new rule of building wealth in this frictionless society, because obviously, we can't get rid of where we're at.

• 4:53Haley Sacks?

  But we can create systems and habits and train ourselves to exist without just falling victim to it. And by the way, the latest data from the Federal Reserve, love you Jerome Powell, just came in and total US household debt has now hit a record high of $17.94 trillion. So yeah, this is needed. We gotta get into it. But before we do, please, can we just go through the market report for the week? So that you know what's actually going on on Wall Street. Oh, and if you want to be in the next year, Sugar Mama, always anonymously, email t@MrsDowJones. I literally read all of your emails. They're so interesting. They're so juicy and I would love to feature you.

• 5:34Haley Sacks?

  But first, let's get into the MDJ market report so we know what's going on on Wall Street these days.

• 5:41Haley Sacks?

  Okay, sippers, this is a special edition of the MDJ market report, because there's only one story to cover this week. And that is what's happening in Iran and what is going on from a financial perspective and how it is going to affect your wallet. And I want to be clear, I am recording this on Monday, March 2. So by the time you are listening on Thursday, or maybe a different day, things will have developed. They will have changed. But the massive financial implications of this war and the attacks are already in motion. So let's get into them. And obviously, I am covering this from a money lens because I'm Mrs. Dow Jones. That's my job, but we cannot ignore the human cost of this conflict.

• 6:24Haley Sacks?

  People are losing their lives. Families are being destroyed, uprooted. And that obviously matters more than any gas price or ticker symbol. But let's get into the data. Okay, so the TLDR is over the weekend, the US and Israel launched what they are calling Operation Epic Fury. And this was an attack on Iran because they said that Iran was close To completing their nuclear weapons and they wanted to eliminate that possibility. So the strikes killed Iran's top leader and other people in power. And in retaliation, Iran has been launching strikes against US bases and targets. And it's just now like this huge mess. And it's now a global conflict because of the Strait of Hormuz.

• 7:09Haley Sacks?

  So Iran controls the northern side of the Strait of Hormuz. And basically 20 million barrels of oil a day flow through this. So that is a fifth of all global production. And as of Monday, today, it is effectively closed, which means that 20% of the world's oil is stuck. If this blockade lasts more than a few days, we'll see what happens by the time Thursday rolls around. Oil is easily going to blow past $100 per barrel, which could mean like a 20 to 30% increase in gas prices the next two weeks. And it's not just oil that's been affected. Major shipping lines have also suspended operations.

• 7:54Haley Sacks?

  And we all know when global shipping gets expensive or stopped, the price of everything from electronics to clothing goes up because it just costs more to move them. Now let's talk about the stock market because that's obviously the other big factor here that is getting very affected by what's happening in Iran. So in the stock market, we are seeing major volatility because there's one thing the market hates. It is geopolitical conflict and uncertainty. Two sectors that are doing really well, though, are defense and energy stocks because they obviously profit from conflict and from high oil prices. But on the flip side, airline stocks and tech stocks are getting absolutely hammered because fuel is getting more expensive.

• 8:39Haley Sacks?

  And obviously with tech, conflict means interest rates will likely stay high for longer. Meanwhile, I just want to give a shout out to gold because gold is really having like the year it never saw coming. It is hitting record highs over $5,400, which just proves that it is still the ultimate safe haven asset for when people are scared. But remember, gold does not compound. Gold is not like an asset that is really going up crazy amounts in value. It is just basically a store of value. So now that I have probably scared you a little bit and made it clear. Everything that is going wrong because of what's happening.

• 9:18Haley Sacks?

  Let's talk about the action steps that you need to take to make sure that your financial life survives this. So first things first, and I haven't heard a lot of people talk about this, but you need to lock down your digital life. Because while all this is happening in the Middle East, there's definitely an invisible war also happening like in the cyberspace. In times like this, groups are always trying to hack like US financial institutions and government databases. And so I would really recommend if you haven't done this yet, freezing your credit. It's completely free. My credit personally is always frozen. Super easy to do. And also audit your passwords and make sure that you have two factors set up. And then the next thing is just don't panic sell.

• 10:02Haley Sacks?

  I know that you probably want to. It's scary when you have money in the market and the market is so volatile. It's makes you feel really uneasy. But never make permanent decisions based on temporary fear. I always say, never let your emotions be your financial advisor. Stick to your long-term plan. So no panic selling. And I just want to give a shout out to everyone who has an emergency fund and a high-yield savings account. Because the Fed is probably going to be keeping their interest rates high with this new wave of inflation likely coming. And so your cash is going to continue earning a solid return. And I will also say if you own energy or defense stocks, it might be a good time to like take some of those profits

• 10:43Haley Sacks?

  rather than riding the roller coaster back down, just like depending on where you're at with your stock market portfolio. And then the next thing that I would really say to do is just prepare for inflation. Like I was seeing a lot of videos this weekend of people filling up their gas tanks. Because the price at the pump usually lags behind the oil barrel price by a few days. That's a great idea. I would also say delay any major Purchases if you can, like a car or you know, if you want to buy a house because borrowing money is likely about to get a bit more expensive. And then I will also say that if you have travel coming up, like if you're thinking about going to Europe this summer,

• 11:23Haley Sacks?

  you want to book your flights, do it now before the airlines bake these fuel surcharges into your ticket. And then the biggest thing in times like this is just also to stay informed and try not to be overwhelmed. Like the news cycle makes so much money off of these conflicts. Like see my friend Caitlin is a reporter on CNN and she was working all weekend. She did such an amazing job, but it's like, you know, they are pumping out content and the more scared that you are, the more you're going to watch and the more ads that they can sell. So limit your scrolling, limit your watching. It just leads to bad financial decisions. If you need to check the markets in the morning and at the close, but like, don't be a panic participant, just be

• 12:06Haley Sacks?

  an observer. And like I said, we're thinking of everyone who's on the ground in this conflict and we hope that you are staying safe. But now let's get into our debt Q and A, which I think you're really going to love because most people have debt. I would say most people listening to this have some debt and this is going to be the episode where we turn things around. We take control of those loans and we finally learn how to pay them off once and for all. Let's get into it.

• 12:36Speaker 02

  UKG is the workforce operating platform with unified HR payroll and workforce management built to solve the unique challenges of frontline work powered by people first AI and decades of labor data. UKG turns workforce intelligence into real time decisions around staffing, pay, compliance and productivity, enabling every worker to confidently take action as work happens. Because when work works, everything works. Learn more at ukg.com/work. UKG HR, Pay and Workforce Management.

• 13:08Speaker 02

  In deepest jungle, Kaltier's panther spies a wandering bird that circles the sky.

• 13:14Speaker 03

  A lovebird, lost and missing his mate, is far from his pass in lonely state. Dry your tears, now there's a start. Follow my steps to heal your heart. Panther stalks through the leaves with silent grace. Through the power of scent, she finds the trace. Behold, two lovers reunite in the skies. A most precious thrill sparkling in their eyes. Together forever, they shine each day. Bound by the beauty of Cartier.

• 13:52Haley Sacks?

  Okay, first question. Do I pay off debt or build my emergency fund first? I have $13,000 in credit card debt and almost nothing saved. If I throw everything at the debt and something comes up, I'm just putting it right back on the card. But if I focus on saving, I'm bleeding 24% in interest every single month I'm not paying it down. Every move feels like the wrong one. Dear sugar mama, help. Okay, this is such a good question. It's one that I get all the time and I feel like it comes from a really good place because for most people, their first step in their financial journey is just like saving emergency fund or paying off debt. And you like, it shows that you want to do something, like you've got that dog in you. You want to be a future rich person. So like, I salute you, I see you, I think that's awesome.

• 14:36Haley Sacks?

  Um, I will say though, that you should focus on saving a three to six month emergency fund first before you pay off your debt. I know that it seems counterintuitive because you're like, wait, but I'm paying all this money in interest every month. Shouldn't I just knock that out and then focus on my savings? And the answer is no. You need to focus on your emergency fund first because if you are paying off your debt with no emergency fund and then you get into more debt, like say you have a job loss or you got in a car accident or like your pet needs surgery, any of these things that just come out of the blue, you're going to have to take on more debt to get out of that hole.

• 15:18Haley Sacks?

  Versus if we start saving that emergency fund, then we start to like plug that hole, which is really productive. And I will also say like, There is no better way to save your emergency fund than to automate your deposits every month. Like, I would not be a millionaire, but like, you're just going back, I would not have an emergency fund if I had not automated those deposits into my high-yield savings accounts. Like, if you're listening and you're looking for a first step, it's set up that high-yield savings account and then automate those deposits because then on autopilot, you're going to be building that emergency fund without even thinking about it, without even lifting a damn finger like the princess that you are. So that's definitely step one.

• 16:02Haley Sacks?

  I will also say, like, there's this crazy story about Kim Kardashian. I don't know if you guys knew this, but she was married when she was 19, not to, like, Ray J or anything, to this random guy. And it was a really bad relationship. Like, he was really in control of her financially, and she didn't have any money. She didn't have an emergency fund, and she actually had really bad credit. Like, they talk about that on the show, uh, on like, the first episodes of Kardashians too, that like, when they started Dash, like, they needed to get all of the credit cards through Courtney because her and Khloe had really bad credit. Um, but anyways, the guy was an asshole and she really needed to leave him and she couldn't afford to. But Khloe had one of those, did you guys have those when you were little?

• 16:46Haley Sacks?

  Like, those huge, um, Coca-Cola bottles that were the piggy banks? We had one of those in my house. You like, put your change in it or the dollars in it. So Khloe had one of those, and Kim really needed money. They obviously weren't like Kardashians as we know them yet. And so she cashed in her piggy bank and was able to get Kim, uh, like, a few thousand dollars so that she could leave this guy and get a down payment on her own place. And obviously, Kim has since paid Khloe back, but I think that's also what's really important about emergency fund is that it gives you the power to leave situations that aren't serving you, which like, especially for women is so important. Like, even if you have like, a toxic boss or you're in that toxic relationship, just having that money set aside is so important to be your step one because it just gets

• 17:30Haley Sacks?

  you out of those shitty situations and allows you to build your empire like Kim. So, emergency fund first, then debt.

• 17:41Haley Sacks?

  Okay, next question. I'm 41 and I co-signed a car loan for my younger sister four years ago. Oh my gosh, I don't know if my sister would do that for me. She stopped making payments six months ago. Okay, and now it is taking my credit score and she won't return my calls. What are my options and how do I fix the damage she's done without completely blowing up our relationship? Oh lordy. Okay, this is a tough one because I'm sorry that we did not know each other when you signed that loan. But the truth is, like, when you co-sign a loan, like, you are the loan, babe. Like, that is now your loan. You're not a backup, you're not a favor.

• 18:22Haley Sacks?

  Like, you are fully responsible the moment that you sign, which is why, like, I mean, personally, I don't really... I don't co-sign loans. It's not my, not my thing, not my hobby. Uh, but obviously, you know, we all do things by accident sometimes, especially financially, because we're never taught. So, right now, though, you do have options. And the first one is just to make the payments yourself to just stop further damage, which is so annoying since it's not your car, but like, okay, we gotta talk about it. Or you can call the lender and ask about, like, hardship or restructuring options. Or you could consider voluntary repossession to stop, like, future fallout. And obviously, none of these are fun, but all of them are better than doing nothing.

• 19:04Haley Sacks?

  And I feel like that's so important when you get into sticky financial situations, is I feel like we all just freeze. It's actually called the ostrich effect. Like, when ostriches get scared, instead of, like, running away or anything, they bury their heads in the sand, which I feel like people are always doing with their finances. So, this is not permanent. This is something that we can get out of, but you just do have to take action. And if she resurfaces, like, the only acceptable solution is refinancing into her name only and getting you completely off the loan. But like, for your credit, the late payments, yeah, they're gonna hurt, but don't worry, they're not permanent. Negative marks fall off after seven years and, like, their impact fades over time. And also, like, credit scores are really important, but like, they're important.

• 19:49Haley Sacks?

  In the moments that you need a good credit score, you know what I mean? Like if you're trying to get a new credit card or if you're applying for a mortgage. And it's like, if you're not doing any of those things right now, you also can spend this time just rebuilding and trying to figure out your next step forward. And you don't need to stress so much about it because like credit can be fixed. If there's one thing that I know, it can absolutely be fixed. And I would just say also, keep your other accounts perfect and your credit utilization low. So that your score will recover quickly. You need to go knock on her door and like figure this out, you know? Because right now you are inextricably linked to her financially, which sucks. But you need to like figure out how to get out of that and like where her head is at, you know?

• 20:30Haley Sacks?

  And like, if she can't pay off the car loans, then maybe like you create a payment plan with her. You know, that like feels less horrible for her than like dealing with the actual car loan company. Like, I feel like you need to try and talk to her. Like if you've only just called her, like can we like go in person and bang on her door? Like, we gotta figure out what's going on with that girl. But keep us posted. That sucks. And if you are listening to this and you are considering cosigning a loan, I've heard from people who like went on four dates with a guy and he's like, wanna cosign a loan? It's like, do not cosign the loan unless you literally like are married to someone and like fully know their credit score and like know that they're good for it. And like you guys share your finances, like it is a no-no. Next question.

• 21:13Haley Sacks?

  Haley, I'm a nurse. I make good money, but I have $18,000 in medical debt from a surgery I had two years ago that my insurance barely covered. Insurance be like that. It feels ironic because obviously I am a nurse, but I've heard that medical debt hits your credit differently now. Is that true? And if so, should I be prioritizing this or my credit card debt first? First of all, you are correct. I don't know if you went to like finance school as well as nursing school, but yes, medical debt was largely removed from credit reports in 2023. And in 2025, that was taken even further. So it's definitely no longer the credit score killer it used to be, which is a huge deal, but that doesn't mean that like you can ignore it and not pay it off. What I would suggest before-

• 21:59Haley Sacks?

  Or even think about anything else is negotiating it down because I feel like people do not realize that like all medical debt is negotiable. Everything is negotiable. And if you're wondering what to say, how to even go about this, I have a free medical bill negotiation guide for you that I will link in the show notes and you can also get just like on my website or even if you just Google like medical bill negotiation, Mrs. Dow Jones, I'm sure it will come up, the free guide, but that is tea and has like exactly what to say in it. And it teaches you how to, you know, call the hospital billing department, ask about financial assistance and charity care.

• 22:38Haley Sacks?

  See if they'll offer you a 0% interest payment plan. Like, these are all such good options that will relieve the financial burden and allow you to actually like make progress on this debt. So that's definitely like, let's start there because I feel like your bill is probably not even $18,000. Like between your charm and my negotiation hacks, we're going to be able to get her down. But then the real question was like, should you focus on paying off this debt first or your credit card debt? And I would say like, let's first just try and get the medical debt to being a lower interest rate payment plan vibe. Because I feel like they, a lot of hospitals will do like a 0% interest payment plan. So let's focus on getting that going.

• 23:19Haley Sacks?

  And then whatever extra money that you have, don't put it towards the medical debt. Put it towards your credit card bills because those are like 20 to 30% interest rate, which is just so much higher. And like, just keeps you on this hedonic treadmill where you're just like never making progress. So we always focus on paying off our highest interest rate debts first and we just like leave our lower rate interests sort of like on autopilot until we can, you know, fully focus on them.

• 23:50Haley Sacks?

  Okay. Whoa. Okay, this one. I sort of knew this was gonna be coming if we talked about debt. But okay, I've been married for six years and I just found out my husband has lost $22,000 in sports betting since last year. He told me it was $20 bucks here and there on football games. It was not. I found a whole separate checking account he opened without telling me and when I pushed him on it, he got defensive and said I was overreacting. We have two young kids. I don't know what to do. How do I stop him from losing more money? Okay, first of all, I'm so sorry for you. Like, this is such a tough situation and one that I think more families are struggling with than they care to admit because this is the fastest growing addiction in this country.

• 24:34Haley Sacks?

  And it's one that people suffer with silently. So I will say, like, you are not overreacting. $22,000, that's a ton of money. That's like a child, your children's college fund, like, the beginning of it vanished into thin air. And I really feel like we need to be having the conversation about how to deal with partners who are addicted to gambling more because millions of people are doing this and we're seeing it everywhere. Like, even Kendall Jenner is doing Super Bowl ads for these apps and it makes it look like this, like, chic, cute, lighthearted hobby. But the reality check that they don't show is like, Kendall is out there collecting this massive check to be the face of that betting brand. And the celebrities that you see, like Drake's always doing that, are also promoting it,

• 25:20Haley Sacks?

  but they are staked, which means that they are playing with house money just to like make the thrill look accessible to someone like your husband. But it's a marketing illusion. Like, they're actually not gonna lose any money if their team loses. So they're doing everything they can to make this addiction look like a luxury lifestyle. And I'm sure you can attest to this, but like for your family, that lifestyle is not that glamorous. It just costs you $22,000. It fucking sucks. So first of all, when he tells you that you're overreacting, he is gaslighting you. Let's be clear. He's gaslighting you to protect his addiction. Like, it is a classic defense mechanism because the shame- Of losing that much money is so heavy that he can't even look at it.

• 26:03Haley Sacks?

  So he's gonna try and make you the villain for noticing it. But here's the thing, girl, the math doesn't lie. And like having a secret checking account, that's not what happily ever after and like on the same financial page looks like. And in the world of wealth building, I will say, the first rule is protecting your downside. And I hate to say it, but like right now, your husband is the downside. It's tragic, it's horrible, but like, we need you to move on from shocked wife to like CFO of the household as quickly as possible, so that we can start to plug this hole. Because it will keep going on his end, so we need to protect you. So we need to put a financial firewall up between your money and his habits ASAP. So like if your paychecks are still hitting a joint account,

• 26:47Haley Sacks?

  let's redirect those babies to a solo account. I want you to pull a full credit report, which legally you are entitled to. And this is so that we can see if there are other secret accounts out there, or credit cards, or maybe he took out a second mortgage, God forbid. But let's find out what we don't know about. Let's figure out where we're at, how bad this gets. Because we need to stop the bleeding before we can even think about healing his wound. And by the way, like, he needs help. Like this isn't something that you can just support him through. It isn't something that he can white knuckle. It definitely isn't something that he can just stop doing. And it's not something that a heart to heart is gonna heal. Like, this is a clinical behavioral addiction that has hijacked his brain's reward system. Like, he needs a professional intervention.

• 27:30Haley Sacks?

  I want you to look for a therapist who is a certified gambling counselor. They're called CGCs, because they will actually speak the language of like, chasing losses and micro betting to him that general therapists might miss. Gamblers Anonymous also has a lot of great resources out there for, you know, victims of this. But I will say, like, this is about your kid's security and your peace of mind. And like, you wouldn't let a stranger walk into your house and steal $22,000. So like, we can't let a sports app do that just because your husband is the one holding the phone. So remember, you are CFO of the household. You are going to perform an emergency audit. And we are going to try and stop this drain. Also figure out where we're at so that we can rebuild.

• 28:12Haley Sacks?

  And legally, you know, you have every financial right to do this, every legal right to do this. And I want you to just figure out and know what's out there. And you're going to protect yourself now regardless about what we're going to decide about the relationship. That is obviously step two. We got to, you know, figure out where we're at first. But some really good resources are, there's a national council on problem gambling. One eight hundred my reset is really helpful. And Gambler's Anonymous also has resources specifically for partners too, which is so important. Anyone who's ever been to Al-Anon knows, like, you need to talk to other people who are going through, who are, you know, terrorized by someone's addiction to make you feel less alone sometimes.

• 28:55Haley Sacks?

  So I'm feeling for you. I'm so sorry. And at least we know what the next steps are to take. And I'm so glad that you wrote in because now at least like you know what's next. So we're rooting for you and I'm so sorry for him. But and it's this, we really do need like federal protection from these apps. Like they cannot be normalized. I think it's so illegal. We need to lock Kendall Jenner up, lock Drake up, no more celebrity marketing. And they need to be highly regulated because it is truly destroying, especially young men. I mean, older men too, but like, it's just, it's horrific.

• 29:34Speaker 04

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• 29:58Speaker 04

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• 30:04Speaker 02

  UKG is the workforce operating platform with unified HR, payroll and workforce management. Built to solve the unique challenges of frontline work. Powered by People First AI and decades of labor data. UKG turns workforce intelligence into real time decisions around staffing, pay, compliance, and productivity, enabling every worker to confidently take action as work happens. Because when work works, everything works. Learn more at ukg.com/work. UKG, HR, Pay and Workforce Management.

• 30:34Haley Sacks?

  Okay, next question. Everyone online says buy now pay later apps are dangerous and a trap. Drag me, I always am saying that. But I generally don't understand why. I use Klarna all the time. I always pay on time and it's never cost me a single dollar in interest, brag. Can you explain to me like I'm five, why this is actually bad? Because from where I'm sitting, it just feels like a way for me to buy the things I actually want at 0% interest. Okay, first of all, if buy now pay later has no haters, I am dead because you guys know they're an enemy of this state. Like, we don't mess around with them here. And if you use it like that, how it's supposed to be used, quote unquote, then slay. You're like, nothing to worry about, you know, it's not a bad thing.

• 31:19Haley Sacks?

  But the issue is that most people are not using it that way. And that's where it gets really, really pernicious. I will also say, like, what are you financing? Because the other issue that I have with buy now pay later is that it's a full psychological trap. Like, when you split 200, 400 dollars into four, eight, you know, smaller payments, it makes your brain register that smaller amount instead of the bigger amount by design. So that suddenly you're justifying things that you can't actually afford just because you're seeing that smaller number. And the research shows buy now pay later users consistently spend more than they would have otherwise.

• 31:59Haley Sacks?

  And I will also say, I'm like getting out of breath because I get so like excited about this. Excited in like a bad way. I will also say something that people don't know is that the stores pay the buy now pay later companies to be at their checkouts because they know that it's going to make you spend more money. So like, these services don't have your best interests at heart. They are there to trap you, to get you into debt, to have you be financing as many things as possible. And, you know, it all started from a good place. They were originally created to help people who didn't have any credit to be able to finance things, which is wonderful. But they've devolved into something...

• 32:44Haley Sacks?

  Through capitalism, obviously, that is really harmful to people's finances. And I will also say, like, they really brand everything in like cute packaging and all of that. But I, you know, if you miss those payments from them, say you're not like being a pick me and paying everything back on time. The interest rate is higher than a credit card company and it will hit your credit report. Um, that's something that's starting to happen. You're also not earning any credit card points with them. So like, if you are financing something big, credit card companies have zero percent interest payment plans. I would much rather you use that if you're doing it responsibly. So at least also you're getting points for those bigger purchases.

• 33:25Haley Sacks?

  And then you're able to like, you know, fly first class for free. Or, you know, like use those points in an optimized way to like live a great lifestyle. So I will say like, you know, to your original question, like if you use it the way that you are using it. No, it's not actually bad, but I will also say like, ask yourself the question. Are you buying things that you would buy anyways and just managing the cash flow? Or are you buying things you couldn't otherwise afford? Because one is fine and the other is a trap, but please don't use them.

• 34:01Haley Sacks?

  Next question. Haley, I feel like everything I've ever been taught about money is that debt is bad and I should avoid it at all costs. But I keep hearing wealthy people say that they actually use debt to build wealth. And that avoiding debt entirely is a middle class mindset. Could you break this down for me? Because either everything my parents taught me is wrong or rich people are just rationalizing bad behavior. And I genuinely can't tell which is which. Okay, first of all, this is such a great question because, and it's really why I wrote Future Rich Person, The New Rules for Building Wealth. Because I feel like what our parents taught us and like how they like made money is just so outdated in our new society.

• 34:41Haley Sacks?

  And like modern 2026 landscape and leveraging debt, leveraging good debt is one of the ways that you can really build wealth in this modern age. So yes, you are correct, there is such thing as good debt. Um, and it all revolves around this seven percent rule. And because like money is a game and the 7% rule is really important if you want to learn how to play it. So like the first step to leveraging good debt is figuring out if you have low or high interest rate debt. And 7% is the magic number to figure that out. So like if your interest rate is higher than 7%, it is considered high interest rate debt. Credit card debt is usually like 20 to 30% or higher.

• 35:25Haley Sacks?

  And if your interest rate is lower than 7%, it's considered low interest rate debt. So that could be like your student loans, maybe you got a good mortgage rate. And the reason that 7% is so important is because over the past 100 years, the stock market has delivered an average return of 7% adjusted for inflation. So if your interest rate is under 7%, you will earn more interest investing your money than your debts will cost you. And many people just have debt because they're never really taught how debt works. But there is a game to it. And I'm going to give you the example of Beyonce and Jay-Z because they have a mortgage,

• 36:06Haley Sacks?

  which is crazy because they are worth like, they're the most, um, they're the richest couple in the music business. But they have a mortgage. They bought an $88 million mansion with a $53 million mortgage. And the reason that they did this is because when they got a mortgage, they freed up that $53 million to invest with. If they put that into the S and P 500 and maybe they got 8% back each year and it compounds annually, in 30 years, they would have, guys, don't drop your iPhone, they would have $531 million. So their net profit from getting the mortgage would be almost like $450 million.

• 36:47Haley Sacks?

  So like if you are able to borrow money at a lower interest rate than you could make, than you could earn investing it, you can really like just run game and build wealth. And for most people, those 7% interest rate, low interest rate loans are those student loans. And I know that like for our parents' generation, they always told us that like financial success meant being completely debt free. Like we always rushed to pay those off, even if they're low interest to. Ring a bell and like scream, I'm debt free. But you could potentially make more money paying the minimum monthly payment and investing your freed up cash towards retirement than you would just by paying it all off at once.

• 37:30Haley Sacks?

  And you can do this with home payments too, if your mortgage is low interest rate debt. But just remember, high interest rate debt should always be paid off aggressively. It's very expensive, but if it's low interest rate debt, you can pay it off while contributing like to your investment accounts to retirement. And money is a game and that's why we need these new rules for building wealth because they're going to teach you how to play it. And I really believe that like it is the old generation where the culture was like being debt free meant that you were financially successful, but like they were actually cat fishing us. You need to run the numbers before you rush to like pay off those debts quickly.

• 38:08Haley Sacks?

  Okay, our final question and reminder, email [email protected] if you want your question featured on the next year's Sugar Mama. This is embarrassing, but I covered dinner for a group of six friends two months ago. The bill was $720, trying to rack up those points lol. I sent Venmo requests to everyone the next morning and one friend still hasn't paid. She's seen it, she's active on Instagram, she commented on my photo last week, but we're not close enough for me to make it weird, but we are close enough that it is awkward. Like, do I send a reminder? That seems aggressive, or do I let it go? I feel crazy for caring about $120, but it's the principle. Okay, first of all, thank you for reminding me because I put dinner on my card last night

• 38:49Haley Sacks?

  and I do have to Venmo my friend Samantha and Naomi both $100 for dinner. So I'm going to do that after I answer this. But you're not crazy, I would be so annoyed, $120 is $120. And I have a friend who does this to me every time. His name is Max, he is my best friend and he has like paid for so many things in my life that he's always like, no, I'm not paying you back for dinner. Like you've literally come over to my house a million times and I've like got you dinner. So I just sort of let it go with him because it's like a funny part of our dynamic, but like with anyone else, I would be fucking pissed. Like this ain't right. So I would be aggressive, I would send. The reminder, keep it breezy, send a text like, hey, just flagging the Venmo in case it got buried.

• 39:31Haley Sacks?

  Cause like, some people are so type B that they're like using their passport at the bar and they completely forget about their Venmo requests. Like I, my dog walker Venmos me and I have to like consciously remember to go into Venmo and to pay her because like, she would never send me a reminder because she I think feels awkward, but it's like, it's not like I'm consciously trying to dodge her. It's just that like I'm doing a million things and I sort of forget, but that's neither here nor there. I will say like, if you do all of that though, and she still doesn't pay, you do need to write off the hundred and twenty dollars because even though you're doing it to get the points, you were basically lending money and you should never lend money, especially to a friend that you can't afford to say goodbye to.

• 40:14Haley Sacks?

  And then I would also like quietly write off the friendship in that moment too, and maybe never put her on a group bill again, like, some people, actions speak louder than words. Like they will tell you, they will show you exactly who they are. The bigger lesson is like points are great. I freaking love points. Like I'm going to Morocco next week on points, flying with points, like, addicted, but also like some people are so weird financially and cannot be trusted. If they think that if you put your card down for dinner, like you're paying for their dinner, even if you're like, I'm Venmoing you. So for those people, we need to create boundaries and keep them out of our financial lives. And that is the damn truth and but don't lose sleep over the hundred and twenty dollars. I know it sucks. It's a lot of money, but like,

• 40:55Haley Sacks?

  that is the, you gambled and you lost and like just never do it again with that person, you know? Send a lot of reminders, but then like, don't drive yourself crazy, uh, trying to search for this. Just, uh, move on. Find your peace, find your happiness and don't ever split dinner with her again. Like don't ever put her on your group bill.

• 41:16Haley Sacks?

  Okay, thank you guys so much for listening. I love you sippers. And please, will you leave a review on Apple Pod? I'm trying to get to 100 reviews. It's my goal. And you guys can make it happen. So please go in there. I will read all of them and it would be so exciting. And once we get to 100, I will do a giveaway. And I've got a lot of cool things to give away, so. Make sure if you have any financial tea, that you send it to t@mrsdowjones. And thank you sippers for listening. We will be back next week with more money intel and piping hot financial gossip. Please email [email protected] and please stay rich. Love you. Bye.

• 41:59Speaker 02

  UKG is the workforce operating platform with unified HR, payroll, and workforce management. Built to solve the unique challenges of frontline work. Powered by People First AI and decades of labor data, UKG turns workforce intelligence into real-time decisions around staffing, pay, compliance, and productivity, enabling every worker to confidently take action as work happens. Because when work works, everything works. Learn more at ukg.com/work. UKG, HR, Pay, and Workforce Management.