152 How to Handle Any Life Transition with Jon Acuff

"In college, we're taught to work jobs, not build careers." - Jon Acuff If you enjoyed this episode, check out show notes and more at www.lewishowes.com/152. Get more from Lewis! Get my New York Times Bestselling book, Make Money Easy! Get The Greatness Mindset audiobook on SpotifyText Lewis AIYouTubeInstagramWebsiteTiktokFacebookX

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Lewis Howes?

  This is episode number 152 with New York Times bestselling author John Acuff.

• 0:07Lewis Howes?

  Welcome to the School of Greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, a former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur. And each week we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin.

• 0:33Lewis Howes?

  Welcome everyone to the podcast today. My name is Lewis Howes. If this is your first time joining me today on the podcast, thank you so much and please subscribe and keep coming back because there's going to be lots of great stuff in the future. And there's 151 incredible episodes for you to go through right now. Now today's interview is with a good friend of mine. His name is Mr. John Acuff. And he was actually on the podcast back at episode number 23. So we're going to have that linked up here on the show notes at episode number 152. So lewishowes.com/152 will get you all the tips

• 1:14Lewis Howes?

  and links from this episode and that link to that episode. Now John Acuff, for those that do not know, he is New York Times bestselling author of the book called Start and he's got a new book coming out called Do Over. And it's how to rescue Monday, reinvent your work and never get stuck. And he talks about these four transitions in our career that all of us will face. You'll hit a career ceiling, which means you'll get stuck requiring sharp skills to free yourself. You'll experience a career bump and unexpectedly lose your job, requiring strong relationships to survive. You will make a career jump into a new role, requiring solid character to push through uncertainty and chaos.

• 1:59Lewis Howes?

  And you will get a surprise career opportunity, which requires dedicated hustle to take advantage of it. Now, this is a phone interview. I think you're really going to get a lot out of this. And you know, there's lots of things that are a do over that that John talks about graduating from college is a do over. So if you're in that space, then this is perfect for you. If you're moving to a new city to chase and dream of yours, then that's a do over. If you just lost your job or you're in transition to another job, that's a do over. And getting an awesome opportunity you never expected before is a do over. So if you're in any one of those situations currently in your life, uh, or if you think you're ever going to be in one of those situations, then make sure to listen and take notes because

• 2:40Lewis Howes?

  John is going to give you some great tips in here on how to take advantage of any one of those situations in your life ever. I'm super pumped for this episode. I hope you guys enjoy it and stick around to the very end. Well, I'll give you guys some more tips. Let's go ahead and dive in with the one and only John Acuff.

• 3:03Lewis Howes?

  Welcome back everyone to the School of Greatness Podcast. I've got my man John Acuff on. What's up, John?

• 3:09Speaker 01

  It is so great to be back on this podcast. It feels like every day on Instagram, I see you posting a different like multiple of 100,000 that has grown. So I'm excited.

• 3:20Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, man. We had you on before. I guess it was like a year, a year and a half ago for your other book, which was awesome and was a New York Times bestseller. I'll have the link to the show notes here later where people can listen to the first interview, but definitely check that one on as well. People love that. Uh, but you got a new book out. It's called Do Over Rescue Monday Reinvent Your Work and Never Get Stuck. Now, why did you decide to write this and dive into this new book?

• 3:48Speaker 01

  Well, I wrote it because we're in the midst of an insane amount of change in our culture and a lot of that's hitting the career space. So you look at industries, um, whole industries are changing. You know, 20 years ago, hotels competed against other hotels. The Marriott competed against the Hilton. Now hotels compete with anyone that has a relatively clean room via things like Airbnb. Um, you know, I talk to graphic designers who'll say, I remember where you could take a graphic design class for online as an elective or something fun to do in college if you wanted to, but you didn't have to. And then one day they woke up and if they didn't know how to design for online, they were a dinosaur. And so we're in the midst of all this change. I mean, like I

• 4:29Speaker 01

  think about my own kids, they, my daughter said, Dad, the, the internet was down at school today. We had to do everything old fashioned. I was like, what does that mean? Yeah. She said, we had to walk, we, we needed to draw a picture of the Tennessee state flag. And we had to walk to the library to look it up in a book.

• 4:46Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 4:47Speaker 01

  So there's this huge change happening and there's a lot of people figuring out their do over moment career wise, where for instance, boomers aren't retiring like they used to. They can't because of the recession. And so they're not leaving jobs, which means Gen X bumps into them. There's no space for them to jump into, which means millennials jump into the Gen X and it becomes this logjam of career. And so it's this really exciting time. If you look at the do over the right way. And so I experienced the do over in my own life, a big career transition and started to look at other people and say, okay, why do some people have amazing do over moments? What's in common? And how do I figure that out for my own life? And how do I help other people with it?

• 5:28Speaker 02

  Yeah. And one of the things you talk about early on is a career savings account. Can you speak about that?

• 5:33Speaker 01

  Yeah. The, the basic premise behind that is, um, relationships plus skills plus character times hustle equals a career savings account. And the, the challenge, Louis, is that we spent 18 years of our life getting ready for college. Like culturally, we understand that. It's this big slingshot moment that we pull back and we graduate and then go to work. And the next thing we get ready for is death and retirement. We have this 40 year gap where we don't invest in our careers and we're, we're taught to build job, we're taught to work jobs, not build careers. And so my big thing there is that there's really only four types of career transition you go through. You hit a career ceiling, which is when you get stuck. You climb to the top of a ladder at a company. As an industry, you get stuck.

• 6:14Speaker 01

  You know, the New York Times asked, why didn't Kodak create Instagram? It's because when businesses have success. They change from innovation to protection. They start to protect the old way. And they get stuck. And so you go through a career ceiling, a career bump. When you lose your job, you get laid off. You have a career jump where you try something new and you're brave. And then you have a career opportunity where something outside of your control happens. And you get a chance to kind of grow it and impact it, but you didn't force it. And so the career savings account is designed to help you navigate those four moments. And what's fun is that we all have those things. We've just never combined them. Nobody's gonna read my book and be like, wait a second, character.

• 6:54Speaker 01

  I need to have skills, but they, they all work together. Most of us have just never combined them and amplified them. For example, relationships get you the first gig. A lot of times in life, who you know, still matters. A friend will, will vouch for you before you're ready. They'll take a shot on you. But skills get you the second gig, because if you suck at cutting people's hair, I don't care if you're my best friend. I'm gonna say like, I love to hang out with Louis.

• 7:19Speaker 02

  Sorry, bro.

• 7:19Speaker 01

  Not getting near my head, like, he's not doing my taxes. Like, I don't need to go to jail because he's my best friend. He's gonna, you know, file wrong.

• 7:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 7:26Speaker 01

  So they're all related. And so the book is about how do you do some very simple things to amplify your career savings account? Blow it up till it's worth billions and spend it on the type of career you want.

• 7:36Speaker 02

  Let's talk about relationships first. I mean, for me, as an entrepreneur and, and for you as well, uh, relationships, and specifically, we were talking before this about, you know, just launching your book. It's all about the relationships that you've developed over years and years of the marathon, not trying to connect with someone really quickly and say, hey, hook me up. But it's really building that equity over time that allows you to get those opportunities, whether it be a career or something like that. So let's talk about the power of relationships.

• 8:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, a big part of that is, like you said, being patient with it. Um, I always try to encourage people that every great relationship started casually. Like, so we live in the golden age of casual relationships, where you can connect with people online in ways you've never connected with them before. I mean, I connected with Jim Gaffigan on Twitter. And he, you know, over the last year or so, got to connect with him on Twitter. He endorsed Do-Over. Like, he doesn't endorse career books. I mean, he's a hilarious comedian, but that was a byproduct of relationship and, and him being kind. And so it's, you see this all the time where we want to fast forward relationships and that's not how they work, not the good ones anyway. You know, when somebody Who you don't know out of nowhere goes, hey, Louis, you've got a great huge platform.

• 8:49Speaker 01

  I'd love to use it. Will you tell everybody to tweet this?

• 8:52Speaker 02

  Right, which hap- which happens every week, by the way.

• 8:55Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, constantly. And then, and then you, but you want to go like, I don't know you. I don't know if this is real. I love my audience and try to, try to protect them and, and give them great things. And I don't know if this is a great thing. And so, you know, and they're trying to fast forward the relationship. Where it's completely different if a mutual friend of ours named Rory Vaden. Yeah, emails you and goes, hey, I've got this new book coming out. I'm really proud of it. Um, I think it fits with your audience. Would you mind taking a look at it? And if it's something that does, would you mind sharing it with your audience? You go, of course, like we've known each other, you know, it's, and it's completely different. And so part of it is, I, I call them boomerangs, throwing out career boomerangs. Where your relationships that are casual, they don't end. They just go off into the distance and you never know when they're going to come back.

• 9:39Speaker 01

  That's what's fun. You'll get a job from somebody that goes, I haven't talked to you in three years, but we're hiring and I thought of you. And, and you weren't like best friends with them. You had a casual relationship that might turn into something more, but that's why it's so important to have that. And then the other thing is that if you want to find out who your friends are, go through a career bump. What you learn there is that you need relationships.

• 10:02Speaker 02

  What do you mean career bump?

• 10:03Speaker 01

  So when you, uh, so a bump is an involuntary negative moment. Um, where you lose a job, you get laid off. I talked to a woman in Pennsylvania, her company she'd been at for 15 years moved to another state and didn't invite her. Um, to make the move. And so this, this kind of stuff happens. Like if you've been in the, an industry longer than a year, you see this stuff happen. I've been laid off before. I've been fired before. And in those moments, you need your relationships. Because that's why money's going to show up in the mailbox. You know, nobody goes, I'm going to give Matt, uh, money in his mailbox, you know, anonymously, because he's really good at coding. No, they go, I'm in a relationship with Matt, like I'm locking arms with him. We're going to get through this bump moment together.

• 10:44Speaker 01

  And what's crazy, and you've experienced this, is that when you go through challenging times like that, the people you thought would show up, the ones you thought would run to you, the second they heard, ghost. They, they don't show up and the, the ones you can't imagine even though you exist, show up. I don't know. I just think it's, I think it's for me, a difficult moment in life re kind of it. It filters your relationships. Imagine like a, you know, if relationships are marbles and it's like this big sieve and you pour, you dump the bucket over. And some marbles are so small, they go right through the sieve and they disappear and some are so big. That they get stuck there and they stay with you. And so. For me, like rock bottom for some people is a trampoline.

• 11:25Speaker 01

  And they bounce back from their worst moment into their best. And usually it's a byproduct of having relationships. Having community that will go, okay, we're gonna do this together. Like I'm on your team. We're doing this.

• 11:36Speaker 02

  Yeah. You know, I talked a lot about weak ties and like these people that you've met at some point and maybe you went to school with or whatever it may be. I talk about, you know, becoming friends with everyone and specifically like. Friending everyone online because. I'll get opportunities from people that I haven't talked to in years that now work at a company and want to have me come and speak. For the company because they've just seen photos of me online for years.

• 11:58Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 11:58Speaker 02

  They see me pop up, you know, but we never talk.

• 12:01Speaker 01

  No, it's, it's, and that's the, that's the age we live in. I get opportunities with companies that way where I'll interact with a big company on Twitter. And an opportunity will come out of it.

• 12:09Speaker 02

  I see you talking to Arby's all the time.

• 12:12Speaker 01

  I, Arby's I've talked to a little. Southwest is who I talk to all the time. I love Southwest. Um, I just talked to Sonic the other day. And they, you know, I, I wrote a tweet about their ice because people love their ice and they responded back. And I, I said, is it weird to write a haiku about the Sonic Ice? And they dared me to write one. And so I wrote one back and. And so will anything happen with that today? I don't know, but I know something won't if I don't interact with people. So. I'm a big believer in trying to be deliberate with relationships and I, I can't stand it when people say. Well, that's, you know, being deliberate is manipulative. Well, tell that to your wife when you forget the anniversary. Say, baby, I just wanted things to happen organically. I felt like me remembering or being deliberate would have been manipulative.

• 12:53Speaker 01

  So I'm not saying I'll never teach people, here's a shortcut to get somebody to do something for you. Here's how to, you know, manipulate something, but I will say be intentional about who you're in relationship with because. Your career is impacted by that. Your life is impacted by that.

• 13:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 13:09Speaker 01

  It, it changes everything.

• 13:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly. And you talk about not, you say, don't burn any bridges. And I'll be honest with you. There are a few people in the world that I've burnt a couple of bridges with, but I just don't feel like connecting with anymore. I don't want to be friends with anymore because of how sour it went. Now, that might be bad. Maybe I should try to not bridge that gap again with those people. But I really try to focus on coming from a place of win-win with every relationship. Uh, even if there's only a couple of people I've burnt bridges with, but always coming from a place of respect and responsibility. No matter what situation happens, do you agree with that?

• 13:45Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, well, see, and the chapter title is don't burn many bridges. Because any is, any is stupid advice. Like, there are gonna be humans that don't like you. Like, welcome to the planet. Um, and you can't, you know, there's gonna be haters. There's gonna be people that don't think what you wrote was funny or interesting or unique. Like, that's part of just, you know, we all get to have our own different opinions and interpret things differently. And so, yeah, I think that for me, I try to remember that and leave some leeway there that you don't have to be best friends with everybody. And you don't have to win over people that, you know, that are toxic for you. Like, it's okay to go, you know what, like, this relationship's really bad for me. And I can't fix it because I can't fix people, like, it can only work on me.

• 14:28Speaker 01

  And so I'm gonna, I'm gonna close that bridge. Like, I'm gonna try not to burn it. And then in situations where you have burned a bridge and you feel like that's a bridge you want back, then, then you own it and you apologize. And, you know, I've done that with two jobs where I sent, um, I was just a jerk at the, at this one company. Um, and I sent an email to my boss and my boss's boss. This is years later. And I just said, you know, I'm so sorry I had such a bad attitude. And, and I did, like, it was on me. And one, like, my boss wrote back and said, hey, that's, you know, thank you so much for saying that. Those are crazy years. We were all under, like, she kind of said, hey, we were all in that space and I really, and my boss's boss wrote back and said, yeah, I don't know what you were doing then. Like, she added insult to it. And I don't get to control their response.

• 15:12Speaker 01

  I just get to kind of, you know, control how I, you know, what I send out. And so I don't think you should burn many. Um, but I think any is, is crazy advice. It leads people thinking everybody's gonna love them.

• 15:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, I like that. Uh, in the next part, you talk about skills and I am such a huge fan of learning and adding on and mastering new skills every single year. And when I was broke, one of my do-overs was I was playing, getting paid to play professional football in Huntsville, Alabama, which we talked about earlier. And um, I got injured, so I had to have a do-over. I didn't have that career anymore. I didn't have that job and I had to figure out what was next. And I remember thinking, you know, I didn't have many skills. This is what I always thought to myself, like, I didn't have a college degree yet. I could play sports, but could no longer play them. So I was like, what are my skills? And I went to Toastmasters for a full year to master public speaking.

• 16:10Speaker 02

  I started salsa dancing. I started like adding on these new skills. And what I realized is I had great listening skills. I was really good at asking the right questions and listening. And that ended up being a really powerful asset for me now with the School of Greatness podcast and developing a platform around asking questions and listening. And uh, you say you have more skills than you think and to master the invisible skills. Can you speak into those?

• 16:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think a lot of times, um, it's the talent we have the hardest time recognizing is the one we have. Um, you know, like, and, and we can't understand where it's going to go. And that's what's interesting to me. When you got injured and were no longer able to play football, you didn't think, I'm a good listener. I bet I'll have a podcast someday. No, you start, never thought that. And so, but you developed the skill that served you later.

• 16:58Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 16:58Speaker 01

  Um, so I'm a big believer that when you get stuck, when you hit a career ceiling, skills are the hammer that helps you break through. And, and that's why, you know, like I said, companies get stuck, um, where a company will go, okay, we only do this one type of thing and we're going to pretend the world hasn't changed. Um, and then they, and then they don't develop anything new or I- Yeah, or Kodak. Um, I remember a friend told me about a, a industrial designer he worked with who refused to learn AutoCAD. And he said, I can do it faster and better by hand. And for a little while, he was able to keep up, but eventually people were like, dude, the, the computer, like it's here to stay. Like, we're gonna use that computer. And the guy,

• 17:40Speaker 01

  you know, was really frustrated because he wanted to do things the old way. So I think, I think that's critical is to constantly be going, okay, how do I sharpen what I have? How do I gain something new? And as far as invisible skills, you know, I think that sometimes we forget everything is a skill, not just the sexy things. Listening is not a sexy skill, but you found a way to make that into something really fun with a lot of impact via podcast. And so I always challenge people, you know, if you look up why people get fired, it's the simplest of reasons. It's like, they didn't come to work, or when they came, they had bad attitudes. And so, you know, or they weren't, they weren't present when they came. You know, like as, as we continue to be the most distracted generation of all time,

• 18:23Speaker 01

  being present is going to be a game changer. Your ability to sit in a meeting and listen and be engaged is going to make you so wildly different than everyone else who is texting under the table as if we can't see them. Like, we see you. You're not invisible. You're not under some invisibility cloak. And so, stuff like that, being present at a meeting is an invisible skill. Um, having a good attitude is an invisible skill. I mean, you know, you and I both know really talented people um, that are amazing at some technical skill and their attitude destroys them.

• 18:57Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 18:58Speaker 01

  They, they treat everybody that hires them like the person that hired them is actually the client. So when you give them feedback and go, hey, can you, can you update this, this form on my site? It's not working. They're like, whoa, I don't know. And you're like, wait a second, didn't I paid you money? Right? Like, is that still the relationship? Like, I hired you and you kind of do work for me. And that's kind of like, this is 100% of the base of the relationship and they make you feel like the client. And those are just those little invisible skills that make such a big difference in somebody's career.

• 19:29Speaker 02

  Hmm. I like that. What are? Two or three skills additional from what you've already talked about being present, listening, things like that, which I think are incredibly powerful. And like you said, you know, so many people are used to looking at people looking down at their phone or looking around to see who's in the room, but when you actually stand in an open body position and you listen and you're present and you look someone in the eyes, it's automatically going to make you stand out from everyone else. What are maybe two or three other skills when someone is either currently in a career or what they're at right now, or they're about to have a do-over, they're doing a do-over, what are two or three things that they could take on right now?

• 20:09Speaker 01

  Well, sure, the big thing there, because I'll give you how you back into it specifically. So if you're at a job right now, your job, your industry, your company and your boss all have currencies. And by currency, I mean the thing they care about the most. So your industry is constantly telling you, hey, here's where we're going. These are going to be the things that matter. Your company, this is what they care about. Your boss, this is the currency. So for instance, when I worked at Home Depot, I used to write advertising for Home Depot. And the currency there was I had to write amazing direct mail catalogs. So my job was dependent on me learning new things about where the industry was headed. So as long as I did that, my boss was really happy because I was contributing value there.

• 20:54Speaker 01

  And so what I'd say to somebody right now is I'd say, okay, if you wanted to learn a new skill, what is the currency that matters to your boss? What is the currency that matters to your company? What is the currency that matters to your industry? And you can make a list of those things and go, okay, you know what? There's 15 things I can learn, but these two really matter to the boss that I work for right now. So I'm going to start right there and you learn those two skills. The other way I'd say you can back into it, because I'm always looking for these kind of like, how do you hack it, is be in a relationship with someone 10 years younger than you. And ten years older than you because someone ten years younger than you is gonna say, hey, here's where things are headed.

• 21:33Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 21:33Speaker 01

  You know, here's, you know, the twenty-nine-year-old, the twenty-five-year-old. Snapchat. We've talked about that where I have friends and I'm in, you know, I teach this morning session, uh, every couple of weeks in Nashville called the Do-Over Club. And there's a lot of twenty-two-year-olds in there that think very differently than me. And it behooves me not to get stuck by thinking, no, I understand the world, it's not changing. And instead say, okay, hey, you're twenty-three. What do you see that I don't see right now? You know, what's, what matters? And then to the person that's, you know, ten years ahead of me, forty-nine, I can say, what, you know, what skill do you wish you had picked up when you were my age? You know, what do you wish you had focused on? And they can say, hey, you know what, these ten you think are gonna matter? They don't. These are the two. These are the two.

• 22:17Speaker 01

  And so that's where, you know, I think we could always talk about, you know, answer people's emails faster, like really specific stuff. But as far as personalizing it for your job and your industry, those are the two things I'd recommend.

• 22:30Speaker 02

  What do you think are the two, what are the two skills you wish you would have had ten years ago?

• 22:35Speaker 01

  Uh, email marketing. I wish I had done, I mean, just as a, as a, somebody who's in, invested in social media and kind of trying to have conversations with people. I really wish I had done a better job, um, respecting the value of email marketing and being deliberate about serving people through email. Um, I was just really caught up in like the fun stuff, like Twitter's fun. Um, blogging was fun, you know, and it was like, oh, I did it and it was great. And I still value both of those things, but the, the longer I spend being an author, the more I realize I wanna be able to have conversations with people. And email is still a really valuable way to do that. Um, and so, yeah, so I look back on that and wish I had done that.

• 23:15Speaker 01

  The second thing I'd say is I wish I had been more deliberate about building a staff. Um, I, you know, I spent sixteen years in corporations, so I didn't really have a need. You know, I had, I had staff that was there. I mean, that was part of my, you know, fifteen, sixteen months ago, I left my last big corporate job. And I was surrounded by really talented. People that did a lot of talented things and I mistakenly thought, well, I'm really talented in all those things. And I, I wasn't. I was in relationship with people that were. And so I think one of the things I wish I'd spent a little more time on was, okay, figuring out, you know, what does it mean to manage an assistant? Like, how do I give clear feedback? Or what does it mean to, you know,

• 23:59Speaker 01

  work with a graphic designer in a way that is clear, you know? So all those kind of people management things that I just didn't do. And I was running and gunning on a lot of other stuff, but I wish I had spent more time on both of those.

• 24:12Speaker 02

  That's good advice. There's a, at some point, you ask a question to everyone. Do you, I'm, I'm trying to figure out what this question is without saying it, but can you say what the question you ask everyone is? You know what I'm talking about?

• 24:26Speaker 01

  Which chat, which section is it in? Give me a clue.

• 24:28Speaker 02

  You talk about how, how do you make people bigger? You ask a question that you ask everyone in this, in this, in this part.

• 24:34Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, yeah. So the question I, I, I ask is, um, you know, a week from now, two weeks from now, what can I have done that will make you look like a rock star to your manager, to your boss? Um, is that the question you're referring to?

• 24:48Speaker 02

  I think so, yeah.

• 24:49Speaker 01

  Yeah. So my, my thing there is that, like, when I go on speaking engagements, I, I try to think about the client who's booked me. And a lot of times it's an event planner. And, and that event planner has taken a risk on me. Anytime you book a speaker, it's a risk. You know, like you, especially the first time. If it's the fourth or fifth time, Lewis has come to speak to your company, you know, this is like, he's gonna deliver. If it's the first time though, there's a little bit of a risk. And so that's me trying to ask them the currency question. You know what I mean? Where I go, hey, okay, what does the currency look like? Where you work and how do I make sure that I do the best job I can to make you look like a rock star? Um, and make people say, we're so glad you booked John Acuff. We're so glad that, you know, got to do that.

• 25:34Speaker 01

  I mean, I think about that with my publisher. I wanna make the marketing person at the publisher I work with look awesome. We're on the same team. You know, we both like, I want them to feel like, wow, this was amazing to work on this book project. I hope we get to do five more books with Johnny.

• 25:50Speaker 02

  Right.

• 25:50Speaker 01

  You know, and so. I've got to figure, I've got to get outside myself and I don't know, I just get so narcissist. Like the business we're in, like personality stuff is so like, there's so many trappings of narcissism.

• 26:03Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 26:04Speaker 01

  And so I constantly have to be fighting that because it's just building a platform is so weird, you know? And even just, you know, we, we get bad at relationships because we've lost the language for them. Like you don't have friends, you have followers, you know? That, that's already a weird thing. And so it's one of those ways that I try to go, this isn't about me. This is about other people. How do I not be selfish and blind to the, the needs of other people? Because I'm a big believer that if you can actually see somebody, like I, my favorite, and I challenge people to, you know, practice actually seeing somebody. And I was in the back of a, um, of a car service, uh, for a gig. And they picked me up at the airport. It was like 10 o'clock at night. And so I asked the, the driver, you know, hey, where are you from? What do you do? And he was from Sudan.

• 26:48Speaker 01

  And I said, Holly, you've been here, he's been here a couple of years. He's driving a car 12 hours a day, seven days a week. And I said, well, what did you do in the Sudan? And he said, I was a musician. I said, really? And he said, look me up on YouTube, which is, you know, the, the gift of the culture we live in. So I look him up, tons, tons of views. And so I go, this is amazing. He goes, you want me to sing for you? And I was like, sure. Like, that's a little weird, but you know, like, go. And so he puts in an instrumental song, uh, CD. And at 10 o'clock at night, driving through Washington DC, he sings full out for like six minutes in Arabic. Like I didn't understand a word, but it was beautiful. And I said, you know, that was amazing. And he said, yeah, in my country I was famous. But I started singing protest songs and I got arrested by the government.

• 27:31Speaker 02

  No way.

• 27:32Speaker 01

  I had to flee. And so when he dropped me off, dude, he was a different person because for six minutes again, he wasn't a car driver. He was a singer. And the next day I took the same car service, different guy. Guy was from the Sudan. I said, I met your buddy yesterday. He goes, oh, that guy's super famous.

• 27:48Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 27:49Speaker 01

  What he's doing here. And so I try to see people, you know, and then remember that they have a story too. And 99 times out of a hundred, it's more interesting than mine, you know? So.

• 28:00Speaker 02

  That's interesting. Wow. Really cool. I like that. Um, the next part of the investment equation is character. And you're talking a little bit about this right now already, but I want to dive into why generosity is a game changer and your new definition of empathy.

• 28:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, I, I think, um, people, I had this idea in there that I realized wasn't true. Um, and that's part of the editing process. I mean, you've, you know, you're working on a book. Um, we live in kind of a tweet culture where people say things and you go, ah, that was fun to tweet and it kind of rhymed, but is that really true? And I had this idea about people never forget your generosity and they always remember your greed. And the truth is people do forget your generosity sometimes, but they never forget your greed. When somebody's been greedy to you, when they've tried to win like one more inch, or they've tried to get $50 out of you and broken that relationship, they don't forget that. And generosity, when somebody, you know, gives beyond what's expected,

• 29:01Speaker 01

  is just such a game changer. I, I put a quote in there from this guy Rory H. Williams, who's, um, a, a marketing guy. And he said, you know, when people sometimes go, I just wanted to make sure I didn't leave anything on the table. His whole argument is that if you want to maintain the relationship, leave something on the table. And I think individuals struggle with this. I think businesses do. I remember we were at a, a hipster fast food restaurant, or hipster restaurant in, um, in Georgia. And it would, it had just opened and it was this kind of gastro burger pub. And there are 12 people in the restaurant and my party had eight of them in it. So we are the majority of the restaurant and we ran out of toast squares before we ran out of dip, which is, you know, just poor, bad dip to chip management.

• 29:44Speaker 01

  And so we asked the waiter, can we get some more toast squares? And he goes, well, let me check with the chef, which is a bad sign right out of the gate. Like, he should not have to discuss toast with the chef. So he comes back out and goes, you can't have anymore unless you order a new appetizer. So for the cost of toast, he lost eight people at a brand new restaurant. And do you think for a second, he and the chef get together at the end of the night and count up their toast savings? And like, oh, we made 50 cents in toast. And so my argument with generosity is that, like, we're moving so fast most of the time. Like, we're hustling so fast, we sometimes run people over and we fail to see the true cost of, of being generous, generous in a moment. So my challenge there is, you know, in the long run, greed is always more expensive than generosity.

• 30:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, I definitely agree there. I mean, I always remember when people, you know, I did a, I try to help as many people as I can and push them and really like support them and promote them like that's, that's what I like doing. And when I help people make a lot of money, I don't need a lot in return. You know, if you want to give me, you know, if we've set up a deal where you give me a commission, if I book you for a gig or something, you give a commission, cool, like that's great. But really, all you need is acknowledgement in a lot of ways. I'm just saying thank you, like I really appreciate this in, in like a little note or a phone call or something, a little gift uh in return for the efforts and making someone, you know, a big, a big opportunity or a big deal.

• 31:11Speaker 02

  Uh but when people just dismiss it, or they do what your, you know, what your buddies did, trying to get a little more money for the toast or something, it's like, it doesn't make you feel good, you know?

• 31:20Speaker 01

  No, and it doesn't make you want to do it again. Like that's the thing is that generosity leads to loyalty.

• 31:25Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 31:25Speaker 01

  Um you'll, you know, you'll go to bat for somebody that's been generous with you, you know, because they've, they've been kind. And then the, the one you asked about empathy, my, my definition empathy is understanding, understanding someone else's needs and acting on them. Uh and you have to have both parts. And a lot of times you see people that are good at one, but not the other. And I mean, that's, that's calling up to try to cancel some service, or when you have a problem with something and they go, oh, we understand, we're so sorry, you know, for your inconvenience. And you go, will you fix it? And they go, oh, we're so sorry. We are so sorry for your inconvenience. And then the other side of that is companies that are good at acting on things that they haven't understood first. Where they launch products and they go, we're not gonna, you know,

• 32:06Speaker 01

  we're not gonna talk to anybody, we're not gonna ask anybody questions, we're just gonna launch it. Then we're gonna be surprised that nobody wanted it. And you go, well, maybe if you had done both of those. And so to me, that's what empathy is. And it's in, in a career, it's gigantic. For businesses, it's gigantic.

• 32:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly. The the fourth investment piece you talk about is hustle and I'm super, I was really excited when I saw the book and and read through this because I am such a believer in hustle. I feel like it's the reason I've been able to get to where I am today. Because I didn't feel like I was smart enough or didn't have the skills, but I had the hustle and that's kind of like what propelled me to getting where I'm at now. So I'm a big believer in it and do you believe everyone possesses this grit or this hustle because right now not everyone has it in the world. So do you think that everyone can have it?

• 32:56Speaker 01

  I think they can. I mean, my my thing with hustle is that, or my thing really in life is that you're capable of more than you think. Um, and it's gonna take hard work. And if I can get you to believe the first one first, the hope, then I can ta- I can get you to understand the second one, the hard work. Um, so I do believe that just, you know, in the same way that, you know, when you were a football player and that particular journey ended and you needed a do over, you know, you weren't as good at public speaking at day one as you were at the end of the year.

• 33:26Speaker 02

  Terrible, man.

• 33:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, same with me. Like, I don't, you know, that's why I'm not doing a book on public speaking right now because it's still, I've only done it for seven years now. I'm not an expert yet. Like, I wanna get better and the first, you know, and so I do think everybody has it. I think a lot of it's about what's your motivation? Um, you know, what is it? What's in the way of that? You know, I'm a, I'm a big believer in, you know, understanding where your time is really going. We like to tell people we're busy, but then, you know, the stat I put in the, in the book is that during the 15 week fantasy football season, American companies lose an estimated 6.5 billion dollars. And I'm not against fantasy football. I just want us to do it on purpose. You know, so a lot of times when people tell me,

• 34:10Speaker 01

  I, I don't know how to hustle or I'm too busy to hustle. I, I think there's undiscovered amounts of time and undiscovered amounts of energy. Um, the challenge is that hustle's been turned into such like an Axe body spray word on the internet that like, P, I think guys like you and I, the, the part of our job is to help redeem what hustle looks like. Um,

• 34:32Speaker 02

  It's not just being busy and like.

• 34:35Speaker 01

  No, like, you know, it's not like the the book talks about it's about focus, not frenzy. I mean, you and I talked about the challenge is that there you'll never be done. Like, you never end your day and go, I did enough social media today. There's always like one more tweet or one more thing and and hustle isn't burnout. Like hustle, that's the tension to me of hustle is that you have to say yes, but you also have to say no. It would be the easiest thing ever if your podcast, you just got to come on or like, if you want to be great, just say yes to everything. No, that's that's horrible advice. You need to say no a lot. But you can't just go, just say no to everything. And so that, to me, is the hustle.

• 35:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, I was, you talk about how hustle has seasons and use awareness to recognize them. I just did a solo episode the other week about talking about showing up and resting up. Because, you know, there's different seasons where you got to show up. You're in a book launch mode right now. You're going to show up constantly for the next month or two. And then maybe a little bit more, but then there's going to be need an off season where you can recover and rest up. And, you know, my voice sounds a little coarse right now because I was gone for a month and a half in New York, just hustling nonstop. Doing meetings, preparing for my book launch, which is later in the year. And I was like, okay, now I'm feeling like I need to rest. And so I'm just not going to work for the weekend. And this last weekend, I went to the beach and relaxed and did some fun activities.

• 35:56Speaker 02

  And now I feel a lot better. Still, still, my voice sounds a little rusty, but feeling a lot better and I'm back on the path. So I'm super pumped that you talked about that is has how it has seasons. And you got to be aware to recognize them.

• 36:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think I think that, you know, I think sometimes I talk about how in a in a world that praises busyness, rest is an act of bravery. And so, you know, my favorite, my favorite idea about that was in this book, I'm orbiting the giant hairball. Um, which everyone should read. It's just fantastic. And the, the author, who I believe his last name was Mackenzie. I think it's Gordon Mackenzie. But he talks about how, when you see a cow in the field, just chewing grass or chewing its cud. Most people will look at that and think, oh, wow, it's being lazy. It's only being productive when it's being milked and there's value there. But he said, that process of milk is every bit a part of the chewing the cud. Like that is, it's all a big process. That part has value too.

• 36:55Speaker 01

  And so I think especially for someone who creates things, and we all create things. You do need to figure out, okay, where's the rest here? And, and part of the challenge, especially for, for listeners of your podcast is that you'll never become a workaholic because of a job you hate. You'll become one because of a job you love. Like when you have a job you hate, you want to do it less.

• 37:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly.

• 37:15Speaker 01

  My wife's not worried that I'll be lazy at work. Cause I love what I do. You know, like the idea of helping one more person or writing one more funny tweet or, you know, or growing one new social media tool. Like, I love that. But I also realize I've got to rest and I've got to not lose sight of, you know, I, I need to be a dad first and a husband first and all these other things. And, and so I think you do have to recognize the seasons. And the one I always challenge people about is they'll go, I'm not hustling on my dream hard enough. And I'll say, well, tell me about your family. And they'll say, well, we have two twin four month olds and a three year old. Um, and a six year old. And I'll just go, not working on a dream hard enough. I mean, you're raising humans right now. Like maybe this isn't the season for you to be getting up at four AM.

• 37:58Speaker 01

  Like you're already up at three AM feeding two twins. Like

• 38:01Speaker 02

  Right.

• 38:01Speaker 01

  Something on pause. Um, and so I think it is about figuring out, this is a season where I need to put in 80 hours a week. Or this is a season where I'm not going to have that space because something else has taken the space.

• 38:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's really good. Uh, a couple of questions left. I want to make sure everyone gets a copy of Do Over by John Acuff, Rescue Monday, Reinvent Your Work. And never get stuck. It should say, never get stuck ever again. I think is what you should add to it, but, um, awesome book. I highly recommend it. Went through it earlier this week. Awesome stuff. It got in my hands right now. It's a good little meaty, needy little, mm, scrumptious little thing. So, uh, I'll have a link to where you can get this at the end here in a second. Two questions left for you, John. One is, what are you most grateful for recently?

• 38:47Speaker 01

  Most grateful for recently, um, I'd say my, my wife's impact on the work I get to do. Um, she's this, you know, being working on my own. We really got to talk through a lot of the ideas in the book and I'm very grateful that she loves me enough and knows me well enough to say when something isn't as good as it could be. And that she'll challenge me on stuff like that. So I'm, I'm really grateful about that. And then I'm also grateful, I'm in a mastermind right now with a group of guys in Nashville. And it's been, I mean, I talk about relationship because I've learned the value of relationship. So having four other guys that I meet with once a week who can encourage me

• 39:29Speaker 01

  or ask questions and be in relationship with has been, has been awesome. Sometimes we get stuck on that me against the world mentality and that's a really small way to live.

• 39:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, I like that. Uh, final question coming up here in a second, but before we, I ask you the final question, which you've already answered before, I want to acknowledge you, John, for doing this work and being in service to so many people. I know you do this, uh, the weekly meeting, do over meeting for people in Nashville, but this is something that a lot of people need. And you've been researching and writing and putting together the information and the tools for people to be successful when they feel stuck, when they feel like the job's not working out, when they feel like they're not making the money they need. So thank you and I acknowledge you for your commitment to this work, my man.

• 40:17Speaker 01

  Well, thanks, man. I really appreciate that and I'm, I'm grateful that there's, you know, guys like you that will have continued to be generous to me. Um, it's, you know, I don't get to do this without folks who, who will listen and are encouraged. And so hopefully somebody, you know, somebody else will be encouraged by it.

• 40:35Speaker 02

  Yeah. Final question, and that's what's your definition of greatness?

• 40:41Speaker 01

  My definition of greatness, um, I don't know what I said last time. It was just so brilliant. Yeah, sure, people carved it into stone. I would say my, uh, my definition of greatness is spending more time being more of who you're meant to be.

• 41:01Speaker 02

  John Acuff, you are the man. I appreciate you, friend, and I cannot wait to see you next time in person and have you back on soon.

• 41:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I'm excited. I should have said one of the things I'm grateful for is that our books don't come out at the same time.

• 41:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, me too.

• 41:14Speaker 01

  I am grateful for that.

• 41:16Speaker 02

  Awesome, man. Thanks so much.

• 41:18Speaker 01

  Thanks, Lewis.

• 41:22Lewis Howes?

  There you have it. Ladies and gentlemen, thank you so much for coming on. I appreciate it. Again, if you enjoyed this episode, make sure to check out the show tips and all the links, uh, over at LewisHowes.com/152. I'm gonna have all the best tips from today's episode back there, so make sure to check out the show tips at LewisHowes.com/152. Make sure to subscribe to our free newsletter over there as well. You can just opt in. You're gonna get some amazing content right away, and then you're gonna get updates whenever the podcast comes out. So make sure to subscribe over at LewisHowes.com as well, so you can get all the goodies from the School of Greatness podcast.

• 42:03Lewis Howes?

  And we've got some incredible guests coming up. Again, if this is your first time ever coming on the show and listening, thank you so much. Please leave us a review over on iTunes, uh, subscribe, share this with your friends over on Twitter and Facebook. Post a picture on Instagram where you're listening to the episode right this very second, literally. Go post a picture and tag me at Lewis Howes. Let me know where you are listening to this right now. I'd love to see that and connect with you. I respond to as many comments as possible on Instagram, uh, because it's my social media of choice right now. So if you want to get in and connect with me, that's a good way to do it. You guys are incredible. Make sure to check out LewisHowes.com/152 for the best tips from today's episode.

• 42:45Lewis Howes?

  Share with your friends. Got some big guests out and coming on soon. Thank you, guys. All so much for all you do. I love you. This podcast is something that I'm so pumped about. And we're gonna hit 6 million downloads soon. It's going crazy. It's almost 800,000 downloads a month right now. It's just grown and grown and grown and it's all because of you. So, thank you for your love, your warmth, your connection, your commitment to coming on here every single week and sharing this. Because without you, it wouldn't be as powerful as it is. We got 5 Minute Friday coming up this Friday and I've got a big one for you guys. I've been working on it. And I hope you're gonna be liking it. You know, people have been telling me they love this new style of 5 Minute Fridays.

• 43:27Lewis Howes?

  So, I'm gonna, I'm gonna keep doing these for a while. We'll see. I'm gonna experiment with Fridays. Who knows what I'm gonna do next? You'd never know. But, uh, please, please share those because I feel, for me, I listen to those over and over because they're only 4 and 1/2, 5 minutes long and they're very inspiring for me too. Um, because I'm creating the information that I want to receive myself. So, hopefully you guys enjoy those. Thank you again. All so much. You know what time it is. It's time to go out there and do something great.