Jaimie Alexander: “I Was Asked If I Wanted to Live or Die”

You’ve seen Jaimie Alexander as the tough, unstoppable character on screen, but what was happening off camera tells a completely different story. In this episode, Ryan sits down with actress Jaimie for one of the most honest conversations she’s ever shared publicly. She opens up about a near-death experience, years of hidden alcoholism, and the moment she realized the life she was pushing through wasn’t sustainable anymore. Jaimie also talks about how Stoic philosophy became a grounding force in her recovery, how curiosity helped replace fear, and more. Jaimie Alexander is known for her role as Lady Sif in the Marvel Cinematic Universe films Thor (2011), Thor: The Dark World (2013), and Thor: Love and Thunder (2022), as well as the television series Agents of S. H. I. E. L. D., Kyle XY, and Blindspot. Follow Jaimie on Instagram @JaimieAlexander https://www.instagram.com/jaimiealexander/?hl=en and subscribe to her Substack called "In The Hallway" https://jaimiealexander33.substack.com/ 🎥 Watch the video episodes on The Daily Stoic YouTube channel https://www.youtube.com/@DailyStoic/videos: https://www.youtube.com/@DailyStoic/videos https://www.youtube.com/@DailyStoic/videos 🎙️ Follow The Daily Stoic Podcast on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/dailystoicpodcast/?hl=en: https://www.instagram.com/dailystoicpodcast https://www.instagram.com/dailystoicpodcast ✉️ Want Stoic wisdom delivered to your inbox daily? Sign up for the FREE Daily Stoic email at https://dailystoic.com/dailyemail https://dailystoic.com/dailyemail 🏛 Get Stoic inspired books, medallions, and prints to remember these lessons at the Daily Stoic Store: https://store.dailystoic.com/ https://store.dailystoic.com/ 📱 Follow us: Instagram https://www.instagram.com/dailystoic/, Twitter https://twitter.com/dailystoic, YouTube https://www.youtube.com/@DailyStoic, TikTok https://www.tiktok.com/@daily_stoic?lang=en, and Facebook https://www.facebook.com/dailystoic See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Ryan Holiday?

  Welcome to the Daily Stoic Podcast, designed to help bring those four key Stoic virtues, courage, discipline, justice, and wisdom into the real world.

• 0:14Ryan Holiday?

  Hey, it's Ryan. Welcome to another episode of the Daily Stoic Podcast. By the, by the time you are listening to this, I think it's coming out on Saturday, we may all be frozen solid here in Texas. People are freaking out. It's not supposed to be that cold, but Texas, it doesn't get that cold here that often. So they really freak out. They close all the roads. The power grid is taxed. That is a real problem. Texas has its own power grid for some weird political reason. And so it can't, I think, as easily take power from other parts of the country that aren't undergoing weather things. That's why we had in 2021, this crazy freeze. It's like nine degrees out.

• 0:56Ryan Holiday?

  I remember we lost power in the middle of it. I had to go sleep in my kid's room in their bed. So they, they literally could stay alive. I don't think it's supposed to be that serious, but there is a lot going on. We're, we're doing a dinner at the painted porch for people who bought a bunch of copies of Wisdom. It's the philosopher's dinner that we do for the launches of all of them. We've been looking forward to it for a long time. It's hard to justify canceling a thing because here it's 30 degrees when that's a normal temperature for this time of year all over the country. So not sure exactly what's going to happen, but people have been freaking out about it. Should we move it? Should we cancel it? What should we do? I was like this or that. She's, and, and I texted her. She posted on Instagram.

• 1:38Ryan Holiday?

  I said, I'm not going to worry about it, but somebody probably should. Which to me is, that's what delegation is about. I'm not saying it's not worth thinking about. It is worth thinking about. It's just not worth me thinking about because one, I don't know anything about it. I'm not a logistics and planning person, but also I have other things I'm supposed to be thinking about that if I don't think about, don't get thought about. What does that have to do with today's episode? Nothing, just what's going on here. Over the years, I've heard from tons of people, actually I just heard from someone yesterday that that got introduced to Stoicism in recovery. The Daily Stoic and ideas from the Stoics have been passed around the 12 step community for many, many years.

• 2:20Ryan Holiday?

  And in fact, I think some of the original founders of Alcoholics Anonymous quoted the Stoics from time to time. Certainly the Serenity Prayers got some real overlap with the Stoics. But it's been amazing to hear people who talk about how philosophy helped them get sober, stay sober, how to live a good life, how to rebuild their life after they blew up their life, or just however alcoholism can ravage families and friend groups and communities. And recently, someone who I'm certain you have seen on TV or at the movie theater, talked to me about just that. That's today's guest, the actress Jamie Alexander.

• 3:00Ryan Holiday?

  We were actually connected by a mutual friend who told me that Jamie reads The Daily Stoic every single day. And when I heard more about her story, she had to come on the podcast. So she did when she was here in Austin. Jamie's path to Stoicism and sobriety was actually caused by this crazy near death experience, which she tells the story of in today's episode. I think this was a really powerful conversation. I think you're gonna like it. And it just goes to show what someone's life looks like on the outside. At the peak of their career, walking red carpets, landing huge roles, being famous, being a hero to little girls, but their inner world can be falling apart. They could be really going through something. They could be at rock bottom. And Jamie has been through a lot, but she's come out of it stronger.

• 3:45Ryan Holiday?

  And I think she's got a really interesting perspective that you're gonna get a lot out of. As I said, you've almost certainly seen a movie or a TV show with Jamie in it. She's part of the Marvel Universe. She was Lady Sif in the Thor movies. She's been on Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. Kyle XY. She was the star of the NBC series Blind Spot, to name a few. You can follow Jamie on Instagram at Jamie Alexander, J A I M I E. I've spelled Jamie many, many ways over the years as an author. People go, it's Jamie, spelled like you think. It's never like you think. Hers is spelled J A I M I E Alexander. And you can also subscribe to her Substack, which is great in the hallway. I'll link to that in today's show notes. Let's just get into this episode.

• 4:34Ryan Holiday?

  So you just learned how to swim?

• 4:36Speaker 01

  I did.

• 4:36Ryan Holiday?

  Like you didn't know your whole life, or you just weren't good at it?

• 4:38Speaker 01

  I could tread water, but my mother didn't know how to swim. So I never learned. She didn't teach me to be afraid of the water. It's just I grew up being afraid of it. And so

• 4:46Ryan Holiday?

  Well, yeah, if you don't know how to swim, you're gonna be a little afraid.

• 4:48Speaker 01

  Well, I'm literally like Bruce Willis in Unbreakable. Like the way water was, I should say, not is, but was my Achilles. So the journey of how I got to learn is pretty interesting.

• 4:59Ryan Holiday?

  Tell me.

• 5:00Speaker 01

  Well, the thing is, you know, about six weeks ago, I found myself in a kind of a heavy depression. And I've gone in and out of that most of my life. I didn't know what to call it, obviously. But now, you know, I've been sober for almost eight years and I just, I've gotten to know myself quite well. And so I thought, what, what is this? Like, why is this happening? And I thought, you know, I don't feel useful. That's why. I don't feel like I have a purpose. And so my history had been, well, let's go find it outside somewhere, outside of myself. Let's, let's go do this and be the best at that and do this crazy thing. And everybody expects you to do, you know, these crazy physical stunts. And, and then I thought, like, what if I start doing the stuff that terrifies me? And, and look, this isn't like jumping off a building. I've done that.

• 5:44Speaker 01

  But this isn't that. It's more just like, people have fun doing this, and yet I'm scared of it. So I want to get past that.

• 5:52Ryan Holiday?

  What's it all about?

• 5:53Speaker 01

  What's it all about? And so I asked a friend of mine, who's done like some Iron Man competitions and triathlons, I said, if I found a pool in New York, would you teach me like once a week?

• 6:04Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 6:05Speaker 01

  And he said, yeah. And I was like, oh gosh, now I have an accountability partner. And so I went to my friend's pool, who she was so lovely to introduce me to her doorman and all this stuff, and they let me swim there.

• 6:17Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 6:18Speaker 01

  Mind you, it's a 40 foot pool. It's not, it's not very long. So this is like, perfect for somebody like me to learn. And it turns out, I'm actually physically built like a swimmer and I'm really good at it compared to what I thought. And, and I started to have so much fun right away.

• 6:33Ryan Holiday?

  It's the best.

• 6:34Speaker 01

  Because it wasn't about winning. It wasn't about being great at it or anything. It was just like, hey, maybe this is one of those things I could use to help somebody else. And so my goal is to eventually, maybe six months to a year from now, compete for charity.

• 6:48Ryan Holiday?

  Oh.

• 6:49Speaker 01

  So that is the goal that I've set for myself.

• 6:51Ryan Holiday?

  It can be hard to go back and learn things that like, you should be good at.

• 6:56Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 6:57Ryan Holiday?

  Do you know what I mean? Like as an adult, we were like, if you're like, hey, I want to figure out theoretical physics. You know, you know, people are like, oh, okay, that I'm sure that's hard. But it's hard when you're like, if, I don't know, if you don't know how to ride a bike, or you don't know how to swim, or to go back and be a beginner at something that like, most of the beginners at are children. Like you think about someone who, who's like, maybe they didn't learn to read, or they're like, they really struggled in school to then go back and be like, oh, no, I have to do like, fifth grade math?

• 7:24Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 7:25Ryan Holiday?

  That's hard to do.

• 7:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's a, it's a big hit to the ego. And, and what I've learned about myself is those big hits to my ego are great.

• 7:35Ryan Holiday?

  Sure.

• 7:35Speaker 01

  They're good for me.

• 7:36Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, to be bad at something is good. It's humbling and kind of immersive to go do a thing for, not, not just like, hey, I'm bad at it, that's why I don't do it, but to do it because you're bad at it.

• 7:50Speaker 01

  Right. But also like, it, it helps me get rid of my own fear, like this, this rumination that I always have, you're not good enough, you're not this, you're not that. It's like, okay, you know what, like, F you. Because like, I, I've had enough of that in my life. And I just thought, this is my life, you know, like, I, I am living on borrowed time. If life were fair, I would be dead. I wouldn't be here. I had an incident back in 2018 where I was given a choice, like, do you want to stay? Or do you want to go? And

• 8:21Ryan Holiday?

  What happened?

• 8:22Speaker 01

  You really want to know?

• 8:22Ryan Holiday?

  Sure.

• 8:24Speaker 01

  So I had been working on a series that was very physically demanding for a while. And I had gotten into the habit of drinking myself to sleep. I was just always in pain, a dislocated shoulder, a broken nose, like you name it. Like, according to my orthopedic surgeon, who happens to be the head of NYU sports medicine, I've had more injuries than a pro footballer. And he has a good sense of humor, but he wasn't joking.

• 8:48Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 8:48Speaker 01

  I was like, thanks.

• 8:49Ryan Holiday?

  No, I was reading about it. It seems like, I think people think acting must be sort of nice and cushy. But you seem like you get hurt a lot.

• 8:56Speaker 01

  Me specifically, yeah. I don't know what that says about me. I think I'm a little bit of a daredevil. But you know, there was people pleasing in that. Because I was like, if I do the stunt, then we get to go home early, which means my entire crew gets to go see their families.

• 9:08Ryan Holiday?

  Right.

• 9:09Speaker 01

  And that was something I took very personally. Like, I took responsibility for everybody's well being on my set, which to a degree is nice. It's kind of to respect other people's time and yes, so.

• 9:22Ryan Holiday?

  So you're saying there were things where you were like, you didn't feel good about it, or you felt like it wasn't being done the right way?

• 9:28Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 9:29Ryan Holiday?

  Or you didn't maybe understand, but you didn't want to, kind of like we're talking about the swimming, you don't want to be like, I need more instruction.

• 9:35Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 9:35Ryan Holiday?

  Or let's do it a different way, because that would be inconvenient.

• 9:39Speaker 01

  Yes, I was always worried about being an inconvenience to people. But that said, I am quite skilled at a lot of the stunt work I was doing. Currently not doing any right now, not on purpose anyway. But I was a high school wrestler. I have a big background in sports and I, and I knew how to do the things I was doing. It's just when you do too much of something for too long, it's too much. And your body can't, at some point is going to tell you, stop, or we're going to make you stop.

• 10:07Ryan Holiday?

  Right.

• 10:07Speaker 01

  And that's what happened to me. And I remember this so vividly, like I would, I dislocated my shoulder and it went right back in. I've literally been so lucky with some of the injuries I've had. And I just looked at it and I was like, dang it, I'm right handed. Like, how am I going to do this fight sequence? And same thing when I broke my nose, I went to the hospital, got the CT scan and came back to set and started sword fighting again with like a kind of a screwed up face. And it's just like, wouldn't quit. Like, I was like, no.

• 10:33Ryan Holiday?

  Sure.

• 10:33Speaker 01

  You know, I'm responsible for this. And so I just remember that, you know, even though I had all this swelling and I had pain, I wouldn't even take Advil or Tylenol. But I would drink an entire bottle of bourbon.

• 10:44Ryan Holiday?

  Right.

• 10:44Speaker 01

  At night to fall asleep.

• 10:45Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 10:46Speaker 01

  So my wiring had gotten so screwed up over my life. It was my magic potion. It was my best friend, you know, I could do anything as long as I had a little, a little of that in my system or a lot. Nobody around me knew. I was so high functioning in that sense. I mean, the amount of effort it must have taken for me to hide this from everybody. No wonder I had an organ explode.

• 11:09Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 11:09Speaker 01

  You know?

• 11:10Ryan Holiday?

  So what happened?

• 11:11Speaker 01

  So it was kind of like four days in the making, this like beginning of the end is kind of how I refer to it. I had met this guy, really nice guy, who happened to be sober. And I just thought, oh, like, okay, cool. I don't know, like, he doesn't drink, you know?

• 11:26Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 11:26Speaker 01

  But I remember when I met him on our first date, I thought to myself, I wish I could do that. Like, I had a thought and I was about seven or eight measuring shots full of bourbon before I even got there.

• 11:37Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 11:37Speaker 01

  And proceeded to order another double bourbon while he ordered, I think, an Arnold Palmer. And he was so relaxed and comfortable with himself and I felt like I was going to explode out of my skin. I just felt so weird, you know? And so we had that date and I just remember it was like click something. It's like I started hearing a whisper of like.

• 11:54Ryan Holiday?

  Like that, that you could be a person.

• 11:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, I could live and I would be okay. And we stayed in touch a little bit. I had to work a lot, so I didn't see him for a while. And then one Saturday, he was like, hey, um, do you want to come with me? Little drive upstate. I'm looking at properties. He's like, don't take this. Weirdly, you know, he's like, I'm not asking to like move in with you or anything. He's like, I just, um, that's what my weekend's going to entail and I'd like to see you.

• 12:16Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 12:17Speaker 01

  And so I said, sure, like a day trip. That's fun. And the night before I had gotten obliterated to fall asleep because I knew I had to be up early to get in his car to go upstate.

• 12:24Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 12:25Speaker 01

  So I get in the car and he gives me this like really heavy, like green smoothie full of kale and all this other stuff. And I was like, oh, thanks. I was like, if I drink half of this, I'm going to literally ruin your car. So we go upstate and a snowstorm that was predicted to be very mild ended up being like a blizzard. And we got stuck. And so he's like, look, I really can't try to drive back down right now. He's like, if you're comfortable, he's like, I'd really like to just rent a place and stay the night. And he's like, with more than one bedroom, like it's not, you know, I'm not trying to, you know, make a pass or anything. And, um, and so I was like, oh, sure, not thinking how hard it was going to be for me to not drink.

• 13:03Ryan Holiday?

  Right, because your, your sort of secret life is intersecting with your.

• 13:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:08Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 13:09Speaker 01

  And I didn't bring a flask and I always had a flask. I mean, I, I say these things out loud and I think I'm talking about someone else and I'm like, no, that's me. That was me. So get in the car, we go upstate, Blizzard hits, we rent an Airbnb. I realize very quickly that there's no alcohol in there.

• 13:25Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 13:26Speaker 01

  I am like the most good, if somebody like mischarges me on a grocery bill, even 10 cents, I go back to the grocery store and give them the dime. I can't, I can't not do that. And I've always been that way. So the thought that I would have stolen someone else's alcohol so that I could feel better, really did not make me feel very good about myself. I tore that place apart. I looked everywhere while trying to hide from him that I was like losing my shit because he didn't know that I had this battle. I didn't really even know.

• 13:52Ryan Holiday?

  Were you going, would you go through literal withdrawals if you didn't do it? Or you were just like, no, this is like how I sort of deal with anxiety and stress. Like, I'm just wondering how bad it was.

• 14:01Speaker 01

  I, at the time, did not know if I would because I had never tried.

• 14:04Ryan Holiday?

  Right.

• 14:05Speaker 01

  So I, I mean, there were times where, you know, over the years I'd trained for something and I would stop drinking for a while, but I think that was well before I crossed the line into alcoholism.

• 14:14Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 14:14Speaker 01

  So I was very shaky. So I, we went to bed, a lot of crazy stuff happened. The power went out and I was like, I am in literal hell. And he was like, maybe I could do some Reiki or do you want to meditate with me? And I was like, where's the gun? Like, you know, I just want to like turn my brain off. And we ended up doing some Reiki. He did some Reiki and I was like, oh, this is quite nice, you know, but I was like, oh, sober people. And then the next day, weather cleared up, you know, ended up very carefully driving back down to Brooklyn where I lived. Went in my apartment, went to pour a drink and I, I couldn't drink it. It was, it was the most bizarre. Like I would drink even if I had pneumonia. That's a true story. I had pneumonia and I drank anyway.

• 14:53Speaker 01

  When I hurt my spine back in 2012, there was a co-star that ended up bringing small bottles of alcohol into the hospital. I mean, this is not new. This was not new for me. I didn't know all this until I did the work in a 12 step program, but, so I couldn't drink it. And I was like, you gotta go to bed. It's late. You have to be up at 4am for work. Just, just go to bed, you know, and I left it. I mean, I left the giant bourbon straight. No ice on the counter and I, I, because I just thought, well, I'll, I'll drink it tomorrow or something. I go to bed, I wake up, make my coffee, go to work and I. I'm so shaky. I don't feel good. And I just think you didn't sleep, you know, you didn't sleep enough. And I started eating so much junk. I mean, you would have been like,

• 15:34Speaker 01

  are you insane? Like Nutella covered waffles. I think I even got the waffle truck to come to work. I had ice cream and all these things that I was like, I'm gonna throw up if I keep doing this because I have some stunts I have to do. And but I couldn't not have it. And I just kept getting shakier and shakier. And that night I went home, tried to train, and my trainer was like, stop. She's like, you don't look okay. You're losing your balance. You're why does it go? She's like, maybe you just need to go to bed. You know, again, unaware of my alcoholism. And so I was like, oh, all right, cool. You know, oops. And I looked in the mirror and I did look kind of strange. But that wasn't weird for back then, because again, my body was being torn apart by that show. You know, I was having I had a struggle with a lot of chemical burns on

• 16:16Speaker 01

  my skin from the fake tattoos. There's a lot of things that maybe one day, very respectfully, I will talk about. But right now, I don't feel is the time for that. But I had a lot of stuff going on. So when I look in the mirror and I'm black under my eyes and I'm white as a ghost, that's that's not that crazy.

• 16:32Ryan Holiday?

  Well, yeah, part of it is just you're disassociated from what's happening outside and what's happening inside. That's kind of the whole point is like, you can get to a place where you just don't have to feel stuff or think about stuff. In the sense that it's like, working, that's what it's doing. That's the technology of it is you don't have to do that stuff.

• 16:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, very effective.

• 16:51Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 16:51Speaker 01

  Very effective. You know, so I stopped the workout, you know, went back to the bourbon that was sitting on the counter. I remember chucking it out because it wasn't fresh. And like pouring another one. And it literally felt like something was pulling the glass out of my hand. It was the weirdest. It's it actually scared me. Like, it's like I could feel something being like, do not drink this. And I was like, again, not my normal. Like, I was like,

• 17:14Ryan Holiday?

  The opposite of normal.

• 17:15Speaker 01

  Now that's three days without this. And I'm feeling very shaky and I'm kind of So dizzy that I can't, you know, it was not good. So I just said, just, just go to bed. Just go to bed. There was something in me that was like, just go to bed. And I went to sleep, could not sleep that night. I was awake all night. I sleep with the covers like up to my chin, like a little, like a little tiny little, you know,

• 17:33Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 17:34Speaker 01

  cat or something. And, and I did, I just pulled them up. And I remember thinking like, please, please, please, I need to fall asleep. I need to fall asleep. There was just something in me that was like, do not go back in the living room to the bar cart and get that stuff. Don't do it. And, um, and I went to sleep somehow. And I woke up and I felt better. I don't, I wonder if it was like my soul felt better, like I was doing something that, you know, I was like, I don't think I knew that I was doing maybe the hardest thing I've ever done.

• 17:58Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 17:59Speaker 01

  But I had a really weird stomach ache. And I just thought, oh, you ate all that crap yesterday. You can't do that today. You know, again, really ignoring like, hey, you know, you, you're not really one to get stomach aches.

• 18:08Ryan Holiday?

  Right.

• 18:08Speaker 01

  Hmm. Um, but I just thought, well, yeah, that makes sense. I ate a bunch of crap. And, you know, so I go to work and we're filming in Manhattan and the stomach ache just keeps getting worse. And I, and I never even took Tums. And I was like, well, then it'll work, you know? And so I asked the nurse, I'm like, hey, can I have some Tums? And like, what's the amount you can have safely? I was like, can I chew like nine of these? And I had it. It did not make one difference. So she, you know, thought maybe it was trapped air. I don't know. You know, she was so sweet. And again, my pain tolerance was incredibly high at that point because half of it was shut off.

• 18:39Ryan Holiday?

  When you're not taking care of yourself, so you always feel shitty. So what is actually something to be alarmed by?

• 18:45Speaker 01

  Right. I couldn't tell the difference. And, and I, and so it started getting worse and she was pushing on my stomach. And, and it got to the point where I was like, I can't stand up straight. And I had this giant machine gun. I'm running up the stairs in this scene. And actually a paparazzi got photos of that day. And I, I created a little Substack recently and I put them up there so people could see sort of the reality of the situation.

• 19:06Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 19:06Speaker 01

  And I did not look good. And that was like full on makeup and everything, right? So I was like, oh. Got to my trailer midday. Now, I think also I didn't really tell everybody like just how bad it was hurting because this was going to be the first half day of work I had ever had on the show. And I was about to go meet the new guy who I really liked and we were going to go hear a lecture. So I was very excited. I was like, I have a half day.

• 19:27Ryan Holiday?

  And plus, you have this habit, if not, you've told yourself you're the kind of person that doesn't inconvenience people with your stuff.

• 19:33Speaker 01

  Correct. Yes.

• 19:34Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 19:34Speaker 01

  And I'm the tough one, right?

• 19:35Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, sure.

• 19:36Speaker 01

  I'm this like tough, all my other characters I've ever played have had this like grit about them and this toughness. And I just think I was meshing myself into these characters thinking, well, if they can do it, I can do it, you know, which is crazy, especially in the Marvel world. But I started, it started to get worse. I went to my trailer for lunch. I was, I was supposed to be wrapped by them, but I wasn't. So I was like, okay, no problem, you know. And it got to the point where I like, I could not stand, I fully was bent over and they called a doctor to the set. And the doctor said, do you have ovarian cysts? Like, what's, and I was like, what?

• 20:06Ryan Holiday?

  Did you ask for the doctor? They, they had to?

• 20:07Speaker 01

  I, I asked.

• 20:09Ryan Holiday?

  I'm just saying, because that's, that's like, not a small thing.

• 20:12Speaker 01

  It's not a small thing. And it's interesting that like visibly, you know, looking back and talking to some of the folks I still know from that job, they were like, you looked horrible. And I thought, interesting that no one decided, hey, maybe she needs a doctor.

• 20:26Ryan Holiday?

  Right.

• 20:27Speaker 01

  You know, it was like, hey, no, show's got to keep going.

• 20:29Ryan Holiday?

  Nobody wants to force a doctor on, that's why you have to be an advocate for yourself. Because like, it feels like, it's not my place to do this thing for you.

• 20:39Speaker 01

  There's that. And also, if we have to shut down, that costs Warner Brothers X amount of money. And I get it. That's a really shitty place for a lot of producers to be in.

• 20:48Ryan Holiday?

  Sure.

• 20:48Speaker 01

  Because they're just like, how can we best handle this where everybody's okay? You know, and, and I was so strong. I mean, I was literally, you know, I told you I'd dislocated shoulder, put it in a sling and continued to do a knife fight in the back of a van one day. I mean, it was just like chaos, right? So they were really also responding to how I normally was.

• 21:04Ryan Holiday?

  Right, right, right.

• 21:06Speaker 01

  So a doctor comes, asks about ovarian cysts. I'm thinking, because now the pain had gone to my lower right side. And I was like, I'm pretty sure I would know if I had one of those. So I said, no, I don't think so, you know. And this, at this point, I'm on the floor of my trailer. And the doctor steps out, I can't remember where he went. He may have went to talk to the producer or something. And I had my phone like close enough where I started to be like, something's wrong, something's wrong, something's wrong. And I grabbed the phone and I called a producer and I said, I need, I needed, I need to go to the hospital or something. I need help. And coincidentally, my OBGYN, where we were filming, he was like a few streets over. So they were like, let's take her there because I think the producer thought, oh, it's ovarian or something because of the doctor. I think there was like a miscommunication. I got in there, that guy took one look at me, did an ultrasound. He goes, your appendix

• 21:48Speaker 01

  is rupturing. He's like, you need to have the driver take you to a hospital right now. An ambulance will take too long. He's like, if they don't take this out right away, I will come and do it myself. And this guy I've known for a while and I have never seen him look like this. And I was like, oh God, you know, I was just like, wait, what? Like, I was like, no, I have to go back to work. You know, like my brain was just like, no, no, no, no. Still trying to make it not what it was. And I get to the ER and they put me through a CT scan and they're like, you are entering sepsis. And I, again, was like, what? I don't understand. And meanwhile, I have a bunch of fake wounds on, right? So they're going and I'm like, those aren't real, you know? And then I'm trying to pull the tattoos that I was wearing for this job off my body because people were taking photos of me in the emergency area.

• 22:31Ryan Holiday?

  Right.

• 22:32Speaker 01

  And I felt so awkward because again, oh gosh, I can't look weak in front of anybody, right? So I go through the process of getting prepped for the OR and I had a, what a lot of us in recovery like to refer to as a white light moment. I was, I didn't grow up religious, you know, I kind of always felt like there was something maybe out there helping me out, but I had lost touch with it for so long, I thought. And I heard a voice and it said, do you want to stay or do you want to go? And at that time, I had been left in this, like, I don't know where I was. I had a sheet over me and I was, I just knew from like my breasts to my knees, I was covered in orange dye, which I guess is beta dye or something. I don't know. It was something sterile to like, so that it can cut you open.

• 23:10Ryan Holiday?

  Oh, and it cut you open, yeah.

• 23:11Speaker 01

  Yeah. I just remember being like, what is, and I had felt so hot on the inside and all of a sudden, as soon as I heard the voice, I did not feel anything. And I was like, it's over. Like, I didn't have any pain. And this pain, I've been told by certain doctors, and I can't speak to this because I have no children, but they say it's worse than childbirth. And I was like, well, you might want to ask a few other women that because I don't know if that's true, but it was, it was horrible. I mean, I did have contractions. It was like, and then the organ burst. And, and I, so it said, do you want to stay? Do you want to go? And I, my first thought was, I remember you. And I was just like, and like, I can get emotional about it now because I just knew.

• 23:53Ryan Holiday?

  Sure.

• 23:54Speaker 01

  I knew that I was, I wasn't by myself and I wasn't afraid. Like, all that fear I had felt before was just gone. And it felt like that, that, when I heard that voice, like, that's my existence. Like, that's the real thing. Like, this, I don't know what this is, but that was like, oh, like, you know, like, I felt like I was home somehow. It's hard to explain it. And I heard this voice, it was within myself. I didn't hear it externally. I didn't see anything. I just knew, like, I just felt it. And I, I said, I remember you. And then I thought, I was right. And I grew up in a very violent house. I grew up.

• 24:29Ryan Holiday?

  You were right. What do you mean?

• 24:30Speaker 01

  Like, I was right. Like, I haven't been alone this whole time. Like, I was right that, like, that thing that I hoped that there was out there was there. And it was such a weird feeling. And then I, I remember thinking, why have I worried every single day of my life? What am I doing? Like, what a waste of time, you know? And I said to it, you know, I, I didn't want it to go away because I felt so happy. And, but my theory was this before. So I replied to it and I said, I think I need to stay. I think there's something else I'm supposed to do. And I really felt like that, like, it was giving me a choice, which was very strange. I mean, if we consider the concept of free will, I was like, well, case in point, I guess.

• 25:08Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 25:08Speaker 01

  But, um, and I thought, you know what? If you've always been there, like, I think you have, you'll be there later. So why should I go now?

• 25:14Ryan Holiday?

  Right.

• 25:15Speaker 01

  And that was my reasoning behind it. I was like, I'm gonna do it better this time. And immediately when I made that choice, it said, then you can never drink again. And I was like, what? Whoa. And like, you know, I didn't even, I didn't know that any, that had anything to do with anything. And it was like, the weight of the world went off my shoulders. And I was like, oh, there's a name for it. There's like, a name for what I've been doing and what's been screwing up my everything. And. Like, there's a name for my darkness that I can choose to fix.

• 25:44Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 25:44Speaker 01

  Like, that is within my control. And, um, and I was so happy. I mean, I was like, deliriously happy. Mind you, I had no medication in my system because they were about to put me under for a very long time. So I had asked for it. I was like, please, like, make it stop, you know?

• 25:55Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, turn me on.

• 25:56Speaker 01

  So I was as sober as I'd ever been, uh, but as soon as I said, okay, I won't, I promise. I will never drink again. All the doctors came in and it was like, time had stood still. The voice was gone and I was so happy. I remember telling them it's gonna be okay. And then I had this thought, uh, the other day, cause I was like, I'm pretty sure I told them I loved them.

• 26:13Ryan Holiday?

  The doctors?

• 26:14Speaker 01

  I loved you. Yeah, like, it was so interesting, like, to say that to a couple of strangers that are busy. You know, it's like, stop distracting them and trying to like, hold their hand. I know I tried to hold this one woman's hand. Yeah, I remember that one. And so, uh, they rushed me into the OR and at the same, like, when they were lifting me off the gurney, cause again, things started moving very fast, like, immediately. And still couldn't feel anything, was starting to feel very delirious. And they pulled me from the gurney to the OR table and my IV caught like, on a screw or something. I don't know what it was, but it snapped the tube.

• 26:43Ryan Holiday?

  Oh.

• 26:43Speaker 01

  And all the blood started to come out of my arm and I felt my arm go like, very cold and limp. And I still didn't care. I was like, oh, uh-oh, you know? And then they put me on the OR table and that's when the mask went over my face and they were gassing me to knock me out. Because this has gotten really bad very fast, I guess. And I felt myself not able to breathe and I, I literally felt my heart stopping and my lungs stop. And I grabbed, I remember I took my right arm and tried to grab the anesthesiologist's throat, which, you know, I mean, I felt like I was, I was gonna flatline or something, like, I was gonna die. And it's so funny, cause I did that just to be like, no, no, you don't need that. Take it off. You know, I don't know what I was thinking, but that's the last thing I remember. I woke up feeling cold. I felt so happy and so much joy. And I remember the doctors having a little meeting with me.

• 27:28Speaker 01

  Um, I think I still had the, like, hairnet on or something, cause I remember being like, can I take this off? Uh, vanity. And they said, you know, this is gonna be touch and go for a few days. You, you could end up being in here for, you know, a week to, to months. And I was thinking, oh, there's a lot of people that are going to be pissed off about that.

• 27:44Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 27:45Speaker 01

  But I said to them, I said, no, I'm okay. I'll be okay. And my blood tested clean on the second day. No sepsis, which is crazy. Mind you, I was on like an antibiotic, like crazy drip every 45 minutes. But they kept me another three days because they thought this is not accurate.

• 28:00Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 28:01Speaker 01

  And they kept checking and kept checking. And then finally they let me go on day five. I got to go home. And I was like, if that's not some sort of confirmation that what I met in that room was real, I don't know what is. Because again, like I said, if life were fair, if like two plus two equals four on paper, when it comes to life and grace, I would be dead. There's just no way that somebody like me could have survived that. I mean, it was literally, I feel like I was given a choice. And I had told the doctor eventually, I think on like day three, that I think I had a drinking problem. And she was very serious. She goes, when did you last drink? And I said, like, three or four days before I got here. She's like, I want you to know something. She's like, you are very lucky. She was actually really kind of mean in a good way, like tough love. And she said, you're very lucky.

• 28:44Speaker 01

  She's like, if you had drank one or two days before this, you would be dead. And she's like, so if you need help, you let me know. And she's like, I'm going to give you some literature. And I was just like, okay. Like, I mean, I was so scared into being sober. I mean, I accidentally got sober. Like, I didn't do it on purpose. And then I was like, now I have to do it on purpose.

• 29:12Ryan Holiday?

  The ideal scenario would be all this happens and then you just never felt a desire to drink ever again.

• 29:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, that would have been great.

• 29:20Ryan Holiday?

  But that's probably not how it went, right?

• 29:21Speaker 01

  That is not how it went.

• 29:22Ryan Holiday?

  That's actually when the work starts.

• 29:24Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 29:24Ryan Holiday?

  Is coming out of the hospital.

• 29:26Speaker 01

  Yeah. The first thing is taking advantage of a moment of grace. When you have something, it's quiet usually. Like, I love that quote, confidence is silent and securities are loud. I feel that anytime I need to get in touch with my inner voice, it's quiet.

• 29:42Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 29:43Speaker 01

  It makes me, I have to be still to hear it a lot of times.

• 29:45Ryan Holiday?

  You don't hear voices while you're doing 30 other things.

• 29:47Speaker 01

  No.

• 29:47Ryan Holiday?

  You're very busy.

• 29:48Speaker 01

  No.

• 29:48Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 29:49Speaker 01

  You might feel something and then it's your choice whether or not you want to consciously, you know, connect with it. But I had to have the courage to ask for help. And I think whatever's out there, higher power, whatever you want to call it, knew that I wasn't going to be able to do it by myself. And it's like, you know what? We're going to wake your ass up because you are so headstrong, you're so... I've looked after everybody in my life, my entire life. I'm financially responsible for some other people in my family. I've always been the tough person. I, you know, at a very young age, ended up getting my mom to divorce her second husband, who was very abusive. Like, I mean, I just am like doing things that kids don't normally do. So for me to ask somebody for help was that equaled failure to me. And this was like, you don't have another choice. You can't even walk. So it's like, you're gonna, once you're out of the wheelchair, you need to ask for help.

• 30:34Speaker 01

  And I asked that guy I was dating, I said, I know I have a problem. And he thought, wait, what? Like, he didn't see it. And then he thought, I think you're just like sensitive. You went through a lot. And I was like, no, let me tell you about how I used to drink. As I said it out loud, it was like, okay, you're gonna have to say goodbye to your best friend and a part of you is dead. And good for you, but also this can be the worst thing you've ever been through.

• 30:59Ryan Holiday?

  I imagine the higher power part of the 12 step program was easier for you, given the, whatever the mysterious force pushing you away from drinking when it would have killed you. And then, of course, the question in the hospital.

• 31:12Speaker 01

  Yes, you would think so. I think once I, the further I got from that, like, incident in the hospital, the more I was like, you know what? This sucks. Like, this is so hard, you know? Like I say to a lot of people, I say, you know, there's not one person on earth that doesn't want to shut off life for a few minutes. Life is hard. It is what it is. But if you didn't have adversity in your life, you would not have an opportunity to show up. And that's where Stoicism came in to the whole thing for me.

• 31:37Ryan Holiday?

  When did you find Stoicism?

• 31:38Speaker 01

  I found it through sobriety.

• 31:39Ryan Holiday?

  Interesting.

• 31:40Speaker 01

  Now, I'm talking about the textbook version of Stoicism.

• 31:43Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 31:43Speaker 01

  I had always operated, and this is what I learned about myself through reading, you know, Meditations, Marcus Aurelius, Epictetus, I'm a huge fan of. They couldn't be more different in the way they lived their lives or what life had presented them, but they had the same type of philosophy.

• 31:59Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 31:59Speaker 01

  It's really interesting, right? So we are not our outside situations. We are how we choose to respond to our outside situations. And when I, I used to think that way a lot, and I used to kind of daydream. Sometimes I get teased about it. And then I realized this is one of the things that's gonna keep me sober.

• 32:15Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 32:16Speaker 01

  Because this is, I know this to be true. Like, I have that knowing whether I'm right or wrong. I know for myself, this types of, you know, this type of philosophy is going to help me in times where I cannot see straight. And in times where I'm having a really rough time, because, you know, I look at that situation that happened to me in the hospital. Boy, going into the hospital, I was like, this is the worst thing that's ever happened to me, ever. And it's going to affect a lot of people I work with. They're going to be jobless. They're going to be, you know, and I was like, whatever. I get out and I'm almost eight years sober now, God willing, and I think that was by far the best thing that has ever happened to me. So I learned a lot from that. So this is, this ties into a higher power thing is like, I really don't know what's good or bad. And I'm,

• 33:00Speaker 01

  I'm holding up air quotes here because I really don't.

• 33:02Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 33:03Speaker 01

  You know, something can be, you know, we're not dumb. We can realize when we're like, oh, you know, like I broke my shoulder. That friggin hurts. That, that really sucks. But that could lead to something that, you know, really wonderful. And this has put me, Stoicism and my sobriety and the way my life has gone over the last few years, which is not like I thought it would, kind of in, I'm not even going to say in the worst way because I don't believe that now.

• 33:25Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 33:26Speaker 01

  But it has positioned me in a way, and I'm now in a place where I can be, I think, a lot more useful to a lot more people.

• 33:34Ryan Holiday?

  I think when people hear that, it's like, it's not good or bad. You go to this sort of moral place. It's, it's more like, it's not positive or negative. It just is. And then you get to decide, by the way, time will tell.

• 33:48Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 33:49Ryan Holiday?

  Whether it was positive or negative.

• 33:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, just show up.

• 33:52Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 33:52Speaker 01

  Just show up, put one foot in front of the other and be curious. That's something that's helped me a lot. When I fall into judgment of anyone other than myself.

• 34:00Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 34:00Speaker 01

  Right? I go, no, no, no, wait a second. I'm actually going to be curious. I want to see how this plays out. I want to see how it plays out to lose my home and to lose most of my possessions. And I want to see how it plays out that, you know, I can't seem to get an acting job for the last however long, right? Like, I'm curious, actually.

• 34:15Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 34:16Speaker 01

  Like, I was, I had resentments there. And I was like, no, actually, this is like, this is something I, is out of my control. I do what I can. And the chips are going to fall how they fall. It's how I respond to what's going on here. And I thought, you know what, I have pigeon myself into this like little narrow lane over here going, you know, you're, you're a super poor kid from Texas that was a high school wrestler that like,

• 34:40Speaker 01

  Never had a date in her life, like, just was like awkward, horrible home life, lots of sexual abuse, lots of, just the crap, right?

• 34:48Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 34:48Speaker 01

  And I list those things too, when I talk to newcomers, people that are newly sober, because I say, that's not why I'm an alcoholic.

• 34:54Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 34:54Speaker 01

  I know a lot of people that went through a lot worse and they are alcoholics. I said, that was my excuse. And I was like, that is me not taking accountability for who I am right now. And there's a quote that I actually had tattooed on my body because I thought it was cool back in the day. I think it still is, but it's, I'm not what happened to me, I'm what I choose to become, which is a Carl Jung quote.

• 35:14Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 35:14Speaker 01

  And for me, that is it. That is it. So I looked at my life and I said, now you, you're trying to do this acting thing still. Were you that happy when you were doing it? And the answer is like, yeah, sometimes. I mean, Thor was cool. I got to wear a cape and, you know, had a sword and all kinds of fun stuff. There are a lot of things that I loved about being an actress and maybe I will continue to do it. I really don't know.

• 35:36Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 35:37Speaker 01

  But the freedom of letting go of the mask that I have not intentionally created, but that I notice and I'm aware of that I've created. Holy shit, that kind of freedom of just like, so what?

• 35:51Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 35:52Speaker 01

  Like, I can live on two, there's a spectrum of life, right? I am literally on both far ends of the spectrum. I live in a studio apartment, very little possessions, in luckily though Manhattan, so that's bougie as in of itself. But like, I went from having many more material things, right? To not a lot now. I'm the happiest I've ever been.

• 36:11Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 36:11Speaker 01

  I also just recently went to an event as Susan Rockefeller's guest. And it was an event honoring Sofia Coppola. Chanel sponsored it. And I had a moment where I stood on that red carpet, people asking me for autographs. And I thought, you know, I just laughed and I was like, got it. I can be anything I want. I can do anything I want. I can, you can feel more than one thing at a time. Anything is possible. Be curious.

• 36:35Ryan Holiday?

  Interesting.

• 36:35Speaker 01

  Open your tunnel vision. Look at it all from every perspective that you can. I want to know what I can know to make me the most useful for someone else. And the thing about fear that I've learned, because I had a, I experienced a really traumatic flight in 2012. Ugh. And now it didn't stop me from hanging outside of a chopper on Blind Spot, so that's talk about screws being loose, but I was nervous to fly here yesterday because I hadn't flown in a while.

• 37:00Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 37:01Speaker 01

  And I thought, when have you ever been absent of fear? And I went through the obvious, like, oh, when, you know, I'm in a, you know, a room with other alcoholics, and then I said, no, you know, I'm never afraid when I'm being useful. And I'm never afraid when I'm being of service. Like, I actually don't, because I'm not thinking about myself when I'm being useful or being of service. I'm not up here. So I got on that plane, I said, I'm going to be as useful as possible. If somebody needs help putting up a bag, I'm going to do it. If somebody wants to chat, I'll do it. If somebody wants me to, I was cleaning up shit on the plane. I was talking, I had the best time.

• 37:31Ryan Holiday?

  Sure, it gets you out of your head.

• 37:33Speaker 01

  Oh, my God, yeah. And then I get in the taxi here in Austin, and I meet a fella that's from Morocco, and I had spent time in Morocco, and we were talking about Harsha, which is this great bread. And then I go into my hotel, and there's this wonderful waiter that I sat and chatted with named Josh, who's working to be a therapist, who told me about Barton Springs, which I'm going to go swim, hopefully not drown. And I thought, none of this is possible if I am in a state of fear.

• 37:57Ryan Holiday?

  Right.

• 37:57Speaker 01

  So already, I use that as an example of, look how open and big your life just got in 24 hours.

• 38:04Ryan Holiday?

  Well, it's interesting, the curiosity thing, because, like, artistically, we understand that stuff has to happen to move the movie, or the TV show, or the book forward. I think it was the Dalai Lama, someone asked the Dalai Lama, like, about, you know, why is there evil? Why do they exist in the world? And he said, to thicken the plot. And you go, oh, yeah, like, if it was simple, if nothing happened, if it always went the way we wanted it to go, it would be incredibly boring. And also, all the good stuff that comes from those moments, like, you need the crisis in the second act, so then there can be a third act. And then, so we understand that creatively, we maybe even understand that historically, or we see it in other people's lives.

• 38:49Ryan Holiday?

  And then in our life, we're like, no, no, I gotta keep it. On track at all times. I can't afford this to happen. I don't want that to happen. And by the way, I'm going to torture myself with anxiety day to day as if that somehow keeps it all together. Because if it happens, it'll be the worst thing that ever happens as opposed to a plot device or a way of moving the character, not just forward, but like to where it has to go.

• 39:16Speaker 01

  Right. I've always thought of adversity as being the greatest catalyst.

• 39:20Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 39:21Speaker 01

  It's not easy to say when you're in the middle of a shitstorm.

• 39:23Ryan Holiday?

  Sure.

• 39:24Speaker 01

  It's just not, you know?

• 39:25Ryan Holiday?

  That doesn't mean it's fun.

• 39:26Speaker 01

  Doesn't mean it's fun, but you, if you're able to sit with yourself, perhaps there's people that you admire that you take some knowledge from and you look at, look at it on a piece of paper.

• 39:34Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 39:34Speaker 01

  Every time you look at someone's story, I think of Viktor Frankl.

• 39:37Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 39:38Speaker 01

  You look at all these stories and you go, it's the same.

• 39:40Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 39:41Speaker 01

  It's the same. This, there has to be adversity in one's life or you will, like, what's the point of life?

• 39:47Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 39:48Speaker 01

  You know, perhaps that's the point of the afterlife. We don't have any of that shit. I have no idea. But there's a point to, I'd rather think that, that I have a purpose here on this planet than just being a random piece of flesh walking around. I just, for me, it just makes me happier. So that works for me and it may not work for everybody. But what I've started doing is, so again, you know, I'd pigeon myself into being just an actress. I decided I'd like to write. So I started writing. Now, I didn't call myself a writer because I thought, no, because you know who's a writer. And I start listing, you know, all these people, James Fry, all these, you know, whatever. And

• 40:23Ryan Holiday?

  Do you know James?

• 40:24Speaker 01

  I know of him.

• 40:24Ryan Holiday?

  Oh.

• 40:25Speaker 01

  I just listened to his podcast with Rich Roll, who I, I have to say, Rich Roll, I'm a fan. Like, I've never met him, but that guy has a level of humility and grace that I think is a really great thing for a lot of men, also women, but men to see, you know? Not to mention his physical accomplishments. I mean, part of why I'm swimming and I'm going to compete is just to be like, hey, Rich Roll, I did it. You know, I mean, just, so again, I'm looking at people I respect. And I'm going, what do they do?

• 40:52Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 40:52Speaker 01

  Like, what in my life kind of could go with that? Like, where can I draw inspiration? Like, who's to say I can't write? Me. That's exactly who has been saying it. I had a tough upbringing where, looking back now, realized I just, I did not have the strength to apply myself in school, other than sports. And the reason I did sports, is wrestling specifically, is I needed a place for the rage to go.

• 41:14Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 41:15Speaker 01

  And I grew very tall at a very young age. So, you know, I was taller than every opponent in my weight class. So I won almost every time. I would sprawl and do the half, and then that was that. I loved the competition side, but I hated hurting somebody. It was not my nature, and I learned about myself then. You know, I said, okay, I wonder when this is ever going to be useful. Cut to, I do a bunch of action stuff, and I was like, oh, good. This is good. This is fake hurting people. This is great.

• 41:38Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 41:39Speaker 01

  But I look back on my life and say, well, there are a lot of things I wanted to be as a kid, but I was like, not possible for you. You're the poor kid in the rich school. You're the, you know, started your life in a trailer, single mother, your dad is nowhere, who knows where he is, didn't love you, you know, you were a punching bag for nine years, you were this, this, and this. A lot of things that people wouldn't guess by my exterior. Again, pun intended, don't judge a book by its cover. But think about, I do think about this, and I look across the table at you, and I say, both of us have survived 100% of what has happened to us.

• 42:13Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, sure.

• 42:13Speaker 01

  100%, or we wouldn't be sitting here.

• 42:15Ryan Holiday?

  Also, you come from people that survived shit, or you wouldn't be here.

• 42:18Speaker 01

  Or I wouldn't be here. And so you think of that track, that's a pretty good track record. And, and I think in a non-self-serving way, and the worst way, right? Like, I think we should give ourselves some, some, some love for that.

• 42:30Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, sure.

• 42:31Speaker 01

  It's not easy. Life is hard. And the thing is, my main mission, this day forward, is to make sure that every person I meet, and I really believe this is why I'm here, because I feel- Quiet about it in a way, but I want to make sure that every person I meet knows that they matter. That is something that I did not believe when I was a kid.

• 42:51Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 42:51Speaker 01

  And so I am becoming the thing, the person that I wish I could have had when I was little. And a lot of my friends would say the same thing and is that like, this is what I try to do and everything I do, I just like, how do you make a living doing that? I don't want to charge anybody for that, you know, like, I just want to sit with people and, and ask them how they're doing and what, you know, because I think of my story and I'm going, I'm just one person with this story. Like, what about your story and, you know, Claire's story and every, you know, it's crazy to me to think like how layered all of us are. And, and another thing is like, I love the idea of viewing myself as a kaleidoscope. I'm a lot of different stuff. I'm an actress, I'm a, you know, I was a wrestler and I like to write.

• 43:35Speaker 01

  I'm gonna really try hard to swim outdoors later today and not die.

• 43:40Ryan Holiday?

  There's a lot of lifeguards at, at Barton Spring.

• 43:42Speaker 01

  This is good. I was, I needed, I needed to hear that. I was thinking to myself, it's on my agent Chaz to save my life and I might drown him in the process and then he's got a family and I, my brain will just be like, maybe you shouldn't go. But it's just like, you can be all these wonderful things that you are and you don't have to just stick to one thing. And you also don't have to be what you think others want you to be. Really what others think is not your business because you will never know. You will actually never know truly what someone thinks about you a hundred percent. It's not possible. You're not in their brain.

• 44:12Ryan Holiday?

  Well, mostly they're not thinking about you at all.

• 44:13Speaker 01

  A hundred percent. I have learned this over and over. It's actually one of those things where I was a little nervous coming here and I had to remember, it's like, hey, you're feeling this way. You, you are choosing to go on these thoughts of, oh, he's so much more well read in Stoicism. You know, he's so much, obviously like more versed, clearly as I say it, you're better versed in Stoicism. And, and I thought, what am I going to bring to the table? It's like, hold on, just bring yourself and learn something.

• 44:39Ryan Holiday?

  So you said you found Stoicism in recovery. Did someone give you one of the books? Or do you remember how you came to it?

• 44:43Speaker 01

  You.

• 44:44Ryan Holiday?

  Oh, but how? How did you find it?

• 44:45Speaker 01

  So I remember some, I cannot, and I remember this, but I don't remember who it was. Somebody that is a recovering addict was talking about Marcus Aurelius. And I was like, oh yeah, I used to read a lot of that when I was younger and sort of praying for the relief of desire.

• 45:04Ryan Holiday?

  I mean, Epictetus, I think is more popular in the recovery community because he's so much about like, some stuff is up to you, some stuff is not.

• 45:11Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 45:11Ryan Holiday?

  Epictetus is basically the Serenity Prayer 2,000 years before the Serenity Prayer.

• 45:15Speaker 01

  I literally just had this conversation two days ago with a friend of mine. So he was like, what? I don't know much about Stoicism. And he like Googled it. And he said, oh, it's basically the Serenity Prayer.

• 45:24Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 45:24Speaker 01

  I said, I know who you're looking at.

• 45:25Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, yeah. And the idea of like, are you going to pray for this thing to magically go away? Or are you going to pray to have the strength to deal with this thing?

• 45:35Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 45:35Ryan Holiday?

  Because one, and pray is, and I think the operative word there, it's like, are you going to hope to be spared? Or are you going to hope to be strong enough to deal with it? Like, one is a much more resilient, sort of up to you thing to think about. And the other is just like hoping you get lucky.

• 45:52Speaker 01

  More of a victim mentality.

• 45:53Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 45:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:54Ryan Holiday?

  Exactly.

• 45:55Speaker 01

  It's, for me, it's about accountability and taking responsibility, like being responsible for myself. So, you know, I'm not going to pray that I, you know, get a big job in a month or get income or do this or whatever. I'm going to pray that I stay of sound mind and that I stay useful to others. And then I am blessed with the strength to persevere.

• 46:16Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 46:16Speaker 01

  And that, to me, oh, I feel so much better about myself. You know, I feel like that's manageable. That other stuff is out of my control. Right.

• 46:22Ryan Holiday?

  You know?

• 46:23Speaker 01

  Yes. One is a lot bigger target. Yes.

• 46:25Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah. And, and like, you just think about people, just sort of like how narrow their path is to success. They need this to happen and this to happen and this to happen and this to happen. As opposed to

• 46:40Ryan Holiday?

  Like, I'm sort of good with whatever. Like, I think the word that is associated with Stoicism is indifference. And so that seems like, like you don't give a shit.

• 46:49Speaker 01

  It's not apathy.

• 46:50Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, but, but like, I think what they mean by indifferent is like, good either way.

• 46:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:58Ryan Holiday?

  Like, I remember I was talking to Shaka Smart, who's a basketball coach. And he was a coach here in Texas and now he's a coach in Wisconsin. And I was saying, like, do you, I was like, do you like warm weather or cold weather? You know, there's a very different climates. He said, and I always think about it, he's like, I'm a dress for the weather guy. And he's basically saying, I don't give a shit because I don't control it. And, you know, I think a lot of people are like, no, no, this is how I need things to be.

• 47:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:24Ryan Holiday?

  And that's good so long as you get it. And you get in trouble when you don't get it. And life, ultimately, you realize doesn't care what you care about.

• 47:34Speaker 01

  No, life has its own terms. It, it really isn't, you are not the center of the universe.

• 47:38Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 47:39Speaker 01

  Thank God.

• 47:40Ryan Holiday?

  I think that's really what the fourth step is about. It's not so much like, do you actually have to believe in a big guy in the sky? Or the gods, the way the Stoics did? Or like, does it actually have to be some higher? I think at the core of it, it's primarily coming to terms with the fact that you're not the higher power.

• 47:58Speaker 01

  Yes, you are not it.

• 47:59Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 48:00Speaker 01

  And, and I used to think, then how am I going to get all this done? And like, I have to be responsible for that. And I remember being told, no, no, no, you're confusing it. Like, know that you are not it, meaning can you see it as a weight off your shoulders? You are not in control of everything. Yeah, it's a relief. I'm like, cool, all I have to focus on is how I respond to whatever is in front of me. And that's it. So really, if I put my focus there and try to, you know, do everything I can with a sense of integrity, a sense of usefulness, a sense of compassion, empathy, all that stuff. I mean, I'm good. I really can't control the weather. I can't control anything. I mean, and so knowing that, and I believe that, that's the difference. Like you, I had to learn to believe that. And then it's like, oh, cool. There's something else looking after everybody and controlling everybody else.

• 48:45Speaker 01

  And do it where like doing it like, I don't have to, you know, try to stand in front of the ocean and stop a wave. You're not going to be able to do it.

• 48:51Ryan Holiday?

  Right. And even once you believe it, it's still the day to day and maybe even like hour by hour and minute by minute reminder, because you catch yourself resuming the role of being the higher power or the center of the universe all the time. You're like, well, no, no, I need this plane to be on time, or I need this package to come in, or I need this person to be elected. You know, like you need it to be a certain way to be good, to be happy, to be safe, to whatever it is.

• 49:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:20Ryan Holiday?

  And then you're just like, wait, like, how often historically have I gotten my way? Like, not that often.

• 49:25Speaker 01

  No.

• 49:25Ryan Holiday?

  And you're fine. You figure it out.

• 49:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:27Ryan Holiday?

  And in fact, you look back and you go, hey, most of the time, the things I'm most proud of are like how I responded when it didn't go my way.

• 49:37Speaker 01

  Yeah. There's a great sense of empowerment that you can get from that knowing that if you take things one step at a time as they come, you can get through anything.

• 49:47Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 49:59Speaker 01

  A lot of people will ask me, I work with a lot of women in recovery and I'll get asked, well, I don't understand how to do that. You know, like, it's easier said than done. You know, you get, you've had, you know, this amount of time. I'm thinking, I don't have a lot of time sober. Like, yours is not a ton of time. But when I'm asked that, they're like, how do you do it then? And then you're kind of like, oh, shit, I gotta, okay. I go back to, I stay curious. I look at my life as one big fat experiment. I didn't know how that flight was going to go, if there was going to be, you know? But I was like, I'm curious. I'm curious about the people I'm sitting next to. I'm curious, you know, I was talking with this fellow next to me, Anders from Sweden. And I was drinking a club soda at the same time and I, he made me laugh and it came out my nose. And I was like, couldn't have predicted that to happen, you know? But then it's like, okay, how do I respond to that?

• 50:43Speaker 01

  I used to feel embarrassed, right?

• 50:45Ryan Holiday?

  Right.

• 50:46Speaker 01

  I laughed harder and more came out of my nose. It was just like, There's a lightness of being when, for me, when I stay curious rather than dictative. Like this has to happen, so I can do this and that. It's like, boy, left to my own devices. Like, I clearly am not the best judge of what should happen and what shouldn't happen. So I'm really curious to let something outside of myself, something bigger than me, lead, like steer the ship.

• 51:13Ryan Holiday?

  That's an interesting way to think about it, right? Part of, part of accepting powerlessness and also the, the higher power thing. Probably the reason that's so important in recovery is like, you don't make good choices. That's why you're here.

• 51:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:27Ryan Holiday?

  Like, if it was working, you wouldn't be here. And if you were well qualified to be the driver of the universe, you wouldn't have blown up your life.

• 51:36Speaker 01

  Right.

• 51:37Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 51:37Speaker 01

  A hundred percent. I mean.

• 51:39Ryan Holiday?

  Like, learning that to, to not trust, like, sometimes we have to learn to trust our instincts. And then there's this other part of it where you're like, no, my instincts are fucking stupid. I mean, you learn that when you train, like in any kind of combat sport. You're like, whatever, you, whatever you think you're good at, then when you actually, you're like, no, no, no. This is like, your instincts are what make you, you know, you go like this, or you do the thing, and that's like the most vulnerable thing you can do. You, your instincts suck.

• 52:05Speaker 01

  You have to practice this stuff. It is not natural for most people. And alcoholics and addicts that are in recovery, we're so much luckier. We are, because we, we literally get taught this stuff from day one, and we get to see it in real time. And, you know, I, I find the 12 steps incredibly helpful. And it's, they're almost like this algorithm I can plug my life into, and it spits out a pretty solid suggestion, you know? It's up to me whether I take that suggestion. But a lot of us that are sober, and I guess I could, I should just speak for myself, is that I have been incredibly humbled by my recovery, by life, by people around me. And so I, I find that strange, I don't know if easier is the word,

• 52:46Speaker 01

  but I do find that I, I have easier access to that mentality.

• 52:51Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, well, people will go like, oh, I'm gonna trust my gut. But it's like, have you actually done the work to?

• 52:58Ryan Holiday?

  Earn that trust. You know, people are like, oh, I'm intuitive. And it's like, where's the evidence that you have good intuition? You know? And, and so like part of, I think, whether it's trocep or philosophy or religion, what they are is like, they're not perfect, but it is tried and tested over thousands of years that like you trust this thing, override your instincts and your impulses. Because like this is, this is a better framework or an algorithm because your algorithm is biased, it's prejudiced, it's not sufficiently worked. It's all these other things and, and you have to have that sort of leap of faith of the trust in the, yeah, this is actually, this is based on more than just me, who by

• 53:42Ryan Holiday?

  the way, hasn't been here that long.

• 53:44Speaker 01

  Right, correct.

• 53:45Ryan Holiday?

  Or actually been through anything that's like the most serious thing that you've been through, I mean, every person is not the most serious thing that people have been through.

• 53:54Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 53:55Ryan Holiday?

  Like it's, it's only been tested to a certain amount of pressure. And other people have been through more and worse, more times. And like, you know, you think you'd want to avail yourself of like that wisdom. I read somewhere that you read, like read a Stoic passage every day.

• 54:10Speaker 01

  Okay, I do, I actually brought my daily Stoic book because whether you like it or not, you're going to sign it.

• 54:14Ryan Holiday?

  Okay.

• 54:15Speaker 01

  So I, I used to have meditations and I would read that and I would, you know, sometimes I don't have a ton of time to sit and meditate on it. So what I love that you've done is you've brought this ancient philosophy and you have made it so much more digestible for the modern person. These teachings, honestly, they were popular at some points in history, right? They did like repeatedly. But in all honesty, when I mentioned Stoicism, a lot of people are like, what's that? Like you're stoic, like you're strong, you stand up tall and you're like, not quite. And so when I start to talk about it, they're always like, wow, I mean, yeah, I've felt that way or I felt that way. And so I recommend your book because I say, look, Not only are you just getting Marcus Aurelius, you're getting Epictetus, you're getting Seneca, you're getting all these different avenues of Stoicism,

• 55:00Speaker 01

  of the philosophy, and you're getting somebody who is alive right now that's putting it out there in real time. So that if you say, you know, if you read a text and you're like, hmm, I'm not quite sure what that means. It's like, you know what? Here's an interpretation at the bottom of the page.

• 55:16Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 55:17Speaker 01

  Does that, does that give you something to think about? And so what I do is every morning I wake up, this is part of my morning routine to keep my head screwed on straight.

• 55:24Ryan Holiday?

  Uh huh.

• 55:25Speaker 01

  I wake up, I write a gratitude list that's half a page.

• 55:27Ryan Holiday?

  Mm hmm.

• 55:28Speaker 01

  And, and it can be silly things. It can be something grand. I, I just say, look, it's again, the whole spectrum, right? I have a lot to be grateful for. And it puts my, my mind in a state of focus on what's working. Like, well, it's going good, you know? Because there's a lot of stuff. I mean, you can have something bad happen in your life and then that's all you see. And it's like, hold on. Two things can be happening at the same time and even more. So I do that. Actually, wrong. Right before I do the gratitude list, I read a passage from the Daily Stoic.

• 55:55Ryan Holiday?

  Oh, wow.

• 55:56Speaker 01

  And then I take that and I think about it. And I say, hmm, I'm going to carry that with me today and I'm going to apply the lesson. And, and, and I catch, sometimes I'll take a screen grab on my phone if it's a little longer because I want to read it again.

• 56:09Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 56:09Speaker 01

  And so then I write the gratitude list. Then I have these little intention cards that I found that I've had for like 15 years or something. And I'll just pull a random card and also carry that intention. And then I start my day and I, I just, I feel grounded because I feel very aligned with this philosophy. And look, yes, as a woman saying this, you know, I haven't encountered many female Stoics. I have encountered a lot of women that I think already sort of have this philosophy within them.

• 56:41Ryan Holiday?

  Sure.

• 56:41Speaker 01

  That don't realize that it matches Stoicism, but I can't say that the Stoics treated women very well. You know, there's a lot of history in there that's a little dodgy, but it's sign of the times and whatnot. And I'm sure there were female Stoics.

• 56:52Ryan Holiday?

  There were.

• 56:52Speaker 01

  They just weren't recorded as often because they couldn't be.

• 56:56Ryan Holiday?

  Well, I mean, this is a world where like all the women in your line of family would just have the same name. So it's like

• 57:03Speaker 01

  Yes, yeah, that's true.

• 57:05Ryan Holiday?

  Julius Caesar, Julius Caesar, Julius Caesar. You know, it's just like how it would go. So yeah, we don't have great records.

• 57:12Speaker 01

  But not to say that that can't, you know, you doing what you're doing. It's like, this is part of the legacy and this is how I see it. Just coming from my perspective is like you are taking something that is so profound that I have found that helps me in my daily life, that has helped give me a sense of peace that I have trouble reaching on my own. You've taken it, made it accessible and that's part of your legacy.

• 57:37Ryan Holiday?

  That's very nice. You're talking about being a service. Someone did that for me and I'm just sort of paying that forward. That's what sort of gets me going.

• 57:44Speaker 01

  Is it Green? Is that who you're talking about?

• 57:46Ryan Holiday?

  You want to know who introduced me to Stoicism? Dr. Drew.

• 57:49Speaker 01

  Even, oh, I knew that.

• 57:50Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 57:50Speaker 01

  I remember hearing about that.

• 57:52Ryan Holiday?

  It was a very random set of circumstances.

• 57:53Speaker 01

  But see, perfect, got you to pay attention.

• 57:55Ryan Holiday?

  Somebody gives you the book and then, I mean, you can give someone the tools and then do, you know, it's ultimately on them to read it or apply it or do what they are going to do with it. But yeah, I found this thing, it did something for me and then you're sort of, I feel like life is about paying it forward.

• 58:10Speaker 01

  I agree. I love that philosophy. So how do you feel now knowing? I mean, again, and this isn't from an egoic perspective. It's like, do you feel like you are very much in line and aligned with why you were put on this planet?

• 58:24Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, I mean, I feel like this is what I'm meant to do. In a way, the success of it complicates it because there's just a lot of people involved. And I don't just mean there's like a lot of, there's like a big team, which there is, is not just me. But I mean, there's just like a lot of people involved with me and the thing that I would also quietly be spending time with.

• 58:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:46Ryan Holiday?

  Anyway, like as helpful as it's been to me, as much as I try to apply to my life, my personal application of it is a constant struggle like it is for everyone. But there's also just like, this is like the thing that's creatively and artistically fulfilling to me. But then it involves lots of people. Does that make sense?

• 59:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 59:06Ryan Holiday?

  That's the weirder part.

• 59:07Speaker 01

  But would you say that that might be? How you know that it is your purpose is that you would be doing it without the notoriety as well?

• 59:15Ryan Holiday?

  I think so, yeah.

• 59:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, so it's naturally in you. It's something that you.

• 59:19Ryan Holiday?

  And then it's also like, what I feel like, I think Stoicism is a philosophy that I'm lit up by, but then writing is the profession that I'm lit up by, and they just happen to have merged. And so that's a weird, do you know what I mean? If I was like personally into Stoic philosophy and then I wrote, you know, like.

• 59:36Speaker 01

  A murder mystery?

• 59:37Ryan Holiday?

  Murder mysteries or, or, you know, historical fiction or whatever, they, it would be, there would be a separate, there'd be like a church and state there, but there isn't. So it's, it's a little, it can be a little weird.

• 59:47Speaker 01

  I actually find that to be very similar to Marcus Aurelius.

• 59:53Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, maybe.

• 59:54Speaker 01

  In, in the, in the sense that like, he did this thing as a way to help himself stay grounded and help him rule in the best way that he saw fit. So it's kind of one of those things where he was constantly humbled every day by these two things that were intersecting quite often.

• 1:00:10Ryan Holiday?

  Well, I think it's like, if you had asked him at 20, what he wanted to do with his life.

• 1:00:14Speaker 01

  It wouldn't have been that.

• 1:00:14Ryan Holiday?

  He would have said, I want to be a philosopher.

• 1:00:16Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:00:17Ryan Holiday?

  And then he gets sort of selected or drafted into being the emperor. And I think there, what I would make up, and if I was doing it in fiction, I would, I would show him as being quite torn by this.

• 1:00:29Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:00:29Ryan Holiday?

  And not, and only later in life, after a lot of struggle and resistance, does he realize that they're the same thing.

• 1:00:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:00:37Ryan Holiday?

  And that actually he was uniquely suited to be a king who was a philosopher, as opposed to a philosopher who had opinions about how a king should be.

• 1:00:45Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:00:45Ryan Holiday?

  But I think that's common. It's like, we think our job or our path or what we were chosen for is this. And it's actually this, and it's only in understanding that they're much more similar, that eventually they converge, that we're sort of really doing what we're supposed to be doing.

• 1:01:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think that's a big relief in life.

• 1:01:04Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah. When you stop trying to fight, you're like, no, no, I don't want that thing. I want this thing. And you realize actually, in some ways, this thing is what's actually going to allow you to do that thing.

• 1:01:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, like facilitates it, it preps it. And again, I see that with Epictetus as well. You know, you're looking at this guy and you're just like, God, he's like the, I mean, talk about like a shitty deck of cards.

• 1:01:27Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 1:01:27Speaker 01

  But he didn't let it stop him from writing what he, you know, wrote down. And that sense of like going, these are the lessons I'm learning. And also weird parallel to Marcus Aurelius.

• 1:01:37Ryan Holiday?

  One is dealt a shittier objectively deck of cards.

• 1:01:40Speaker 01

  Yes, objectively.

• 1:01:41Ryan Holiday?

  But like neither of them is dealt the hand that they would have chosen. And that's what they share in common.

• 1:01:47Speaker 01

  And that's where the meditations come from.

• 1:01:49Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 1:01:49Speaker 01

  That is where this philosophy comes from. I don't think it would have been possible without that two halves of a whole dueling situation that they were both put in. That, of course, then helps me where I'm at in my life and will continue to help me to keep that perspective of like, hmm.

• 1:02:08Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, you don't know.

• 1:02:09Speaker 01

  I don't know.

• 1:02:10Ryan Holiday?

  That goes to the curiosity. You think your job is X, but the world is telling you, the world's over here trying to hire you for Y.

• 1:02:18Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:02:19Ryan Holiday?

  And you're like, well, maybe I, instead of fighting it, I'll see if that's actually what I'm supposed to do.

• 1:02:26Speaker 01

  What have I got to lose? Like, why not? Like, I think society has given us a template of what we feel because we've seen it. And a lot of people, and most of them are miserable, but we go, oh, everybody else has said it's this, so I guess they're right. And it's like, oh, no. Well, how do you feel?

• 1:02:43Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:43Speaker 01

  You know, what do you feel to be true? And I think we all have it in us. We all have that inner knowing. And it's just our external world and the people in it, we've allowed them to consciously or unconsciously take us away from our inner knowing. And things like this, meditations, you know, Stoicism in general, has helped me get in touch with my inner knowing that I felt or that I feel now has always been there. And I just, it's always been accessible.

• 1:03:09Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, and I think there I do hear from a lot of people in recovery. Stoicism does seem to have made its way. I think there's a couple of sort of of the original guys that had quoted the Stoics here or there. So I think they were even familiar with it like 100 years ago or whatever.

• 1:03:25Speaker 01

  It feels that way when I read some of that literature back from like the 30s and 40s. I kind of go, oh, this is familiar, you know, maybe less eloquently written, but still I can see the parallels. And again, that's that version of me, that that side of me that's always trying to look for what's working.

• 1:03:41Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:41Speaker 01

  Like what, you know, what can I identify with? I'm sick of looking at what makes me different.

• 1:03:46Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 1:03:46Speaker 01

  You know, I find that to be a waste of time for me personally.

• 1:03:50Ryan Holiday?

  Right.

• 1:03:50Speaker 01

  So yeah, are you gonna sign my book?

• 1:03:52Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, of course. You wanna go check out some books in the bookstore?

• 1:03:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, I would love to.

• 1:04:00Ryan Holiday?

  Thanks so much for listening. If you could rate this podcast and leave a review on iTunes, that would mean so much to us and it would really help the show. We appreciate it and I'll see you next episode.