The Science Of Burnout — And How To Recharge From Stress | Kristin Neff and Christopher Germer

Burnout is on the rise. Two experts show us how to combat it. Dr. Kristin Neff https://self-compassion.org/ is an Associate Professor of Educational Psychology at the University of Texas at Austin. She is a pioneer in the field of self-compassion research, conducting the first empirical studies on self-compassion more than twenty years ago. Christopher Germer https://chrisgermer.com/ is a clinical psychologist and lecturer on psychiatry at Harvard Medical School. He also co-developed a highly impactful program called Mindful Self-Compassion, which has been taught to over 100,000 people across the world. This episode is part of our monthlong Do Life Better https://www.meditatehappier.com/podcast-playlists/new-years-2025-do-life-better series. We talk about: How to know if you are burnt out The three main symptoms of burnout, their causes, and their health consequences The three components of self-compassion and how they can help The inner critic and why we kick our own asses How to draw appropriate boundaries with your boss The difference between tender and fierce self-compassion Tools for dealing with perfectionism without letting go of high standards Related Episodes: Do Life Better https://www.meditatehappier.com/podcast-playlists/new-years-2025-do-life-better Sanely Ambitious https://www.meditatehappier.com/podcast-playlists/sanely-ambitious Kryptonite for the Inner Critic | Kristin Neff https://www.meditatehappier.com/podcast/tph/kristin-neff #360 Self-Compassion Ain't Always Soft | Kristin Neff https://www.meditatehappier.com/podcast/tph/kristin-neff-360 #310 The Scientific Case for Self-Compassion | Chris Germer https://www.meditatehappier.com/podcast/tph/chris-germer-310 For the Burned Out, Fried, and Exhausted | Emily & Amelia Nagoski https://www.meditatehappier.com/podcast/tph/nagoski-2023-rerun Sign up for Dan's newsletter here http://www.danharris.com Follow Dan on social: Instagram https://bit.ly/3tGigG5, TikTok https://bit.ly/3FOA84J Ten Percent Happier online bookstore https://bit.ly/46TZglY Subscribe to our YouTube Channel https://bit.ly/3FybRzD Our favorite playlists on: Anxiety https://spoti.fi/3Qa8kMT, Sleep https://spoti.fi/3MjtMxF, Relationships https://spoti.fi/3QvyA5J, Most Popular Episodes https://spoti.fi/3QxZASc Full Shownotes: https://meditatehappier.com/podcast/tph/neff-germer-894 http://neff-germer-894 Additional Resources: Self-compassion event with Kristin Neff & Dan Harris https://self-compassion.org/event/conversation-with-dan-harris-march-5-2025/ The Self-Compassion Test https://self-compassion.org/self-compassion-test/ The Center for Mindful Self Compassion https://centerformsc.org/

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:05Dan Harris?

  This is the 10% Happier Podcast. I'm Dan Harris.

• 0:19Dan Harris?

  Hello, my fellow suffering beings. How are we doing today? Burnout, characterized by chronic workplace stress that is not effectively managed, is, I am sad to say, on the rise. A recent study found 22% of American workers rated their level of burnout as high or very high, and globally, according to another survey, levels of burnout are at 43%. So what do we do about this? Well, today, we've got two of the pioneers in the field of self-compassion. That is a term that, as I have often joked, can sound variously soft, or gauzy, or vaguely autoerotic, but there is hard data suggesting that self-compassion can have compelling psychological,

• 1:04Dan Harris?

  physiological, and even behavioral impacts. And my guests today have been responsible for leading many of those studies. These two humans have had a huge impact on my thinking about human flourishing and my own personal well-being. And they've recently put out a book called Mindful Self-Compassion for Burnout: Tools to Help You Recharge When You Are Overwhelmed by Stress. Said guests are Dr. Kristin Neff, an associate professor of education psychology at the University of Texas at Austin, and her longtime compadre, Christopher Germer, PhD, a clinical psychologist and lecturer on psychiatry at the Harvard

• 1:44Dan Harris?

  Medical School. We talk about how to know if you are burnt out, the three main symptoms of burnout, their causes and their health consequences, the three components of self-compassion and how they can help here, the inner critic and why we kick our own asses, how to draw appropriate boundaries with your boss, the difference between tender self-compassion and fierce self-compassion, and tools for dealing with

• 2:10Dan Harris?

  Perfectionism without letting go of high standards. Just a note to say that this episode is part of a month-long New Year's series we're running called Do Life Better. Every week, we're looking at the top resolutions that people make and often break, and then we're addressing them from the angles of both modern science and ancient wisdom. This week is all about burnout and work-life balance. Last week was about the science and Dharma of your financial life, and the week before that was all about physical fitness. Go back and check out those episodes if you missed them. Kristin Neff and Chris Germer coming up right after this. If you care about supporting independent media and if you care about being a node

• 2:50Dan Harris?

  of sanity in an insane world, there are a few quick, easy, and free ways that you can support me and my team, which I would be really grateful for. One way to do it is to sign up for my newsletter, which comes out on Monday mornings. It's a little dose of sanity in your inbox at the beginning of a busy week. The second way to do it is to follow and subscribe to the show wherever you're listening or watching right now. That really helps. Three, share your favorite episode with a friend. This is a great and low-stakes way to connect with somebody in your orbit, and not for nothing, it also helps us grow. And all of these things take about 30 seconds, and they really do help. You will be supporting me and my team and our mission, and I, as I said, would be immensely grateful.

• 3:34Dan Harris?

  You can find everything we do at danharris.com. It's all right there. Thank you. I mean that seriously. We'll be right back with more show. If you care about supporting independent media and if you care about being a node of sanity in an insane world, there are a few quick, easy, and free ways that you can support me and my team, which I would be really grateful for. One way to do it is to sign up for my newsletter, which comes out on Monday mornings. It's a little dose of sanity in your inbox at the beginning of a busy week. The second way to do it is to follow and subscribe to the show wherever you're listening or watching right now. That really helps. Three, share your favorite episode with a friend. This is a great and low-stakes way to connect with somebody in your orbit, and not for nothing, it also helps us grow. And all of

• 4:20Dan Harris?

  These things take about 30 seconds and they really do help. You will be supporting me and my team and our mission. And I, as I said, would be immensely grateful. You can find everything we do at danharris.com. It's all right there. Thank you. I mean that seriously. We'll be right back with more show. Real progress starts with action. As the executive director of the Honold Foundation, Emily Tietzworth works to expand access to solar energy in communities around the world, supporting locally led projects that bring reliable power, greater independence, and opportunity where it is needed most. On the podcast Planet Visionaries, professional climber and Honold Foundation founder Alex Honold goes beyond the headlines with Emily

• 5:03Dan Harris?

  to explore practical solutions for a more equitable future. In partnership with the Rolex Perpetual Planet Initiative, this is Planet Visionaries. Listen or watch wherever you get your podcasts.

• 5:17Dan Harris?

  Kristin Neff and Chris Germer, welcome back to the show, both of you.

• 5:21Speaker 01

  Thanks so much for having us back.

• 5:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's just great. Thank you, Ben.

• 5:25Dan Harris?

  You guys have been individually and collectively a massive influence on me and my work. So don't expect a hostile interview here.

• 5:37Speaker 01

  Thank you. Very sweet. Although I kind of like the hostile version of you. I don't know about that.

• 5:43Dan Harris?

  Be careful what you wish for, Neff.

• 5:45Speaker 01

  OK, it's true.

• 5:48Dan Harris?

  Congratulations on this new book about burnout. Huge, huge issue. Let's just start there with burnout. Why did you choose this subject?

• 5:57Speaker 01

  Well, actually, it was my idea or Chris can blame me for it. Just like everyone, we were feeling burnt out. I mean, the pandemic was really the inspiration for at least me personally, just feeling like my son was being homeschooled and so much stress about everything shutting down. And I just realized that although I teetered on the edge of burnout, you might say, I didn't go into full on burnout because I had my self compassion practice. And so after we came out of the pandemic, I said to Chris, you know, what do you think? We could just apply some of our self compassion tools to burnout. It would probably be really useful. And then you said, Chris, what did you say to me?

• 6:37Speaker 02

  What I said is, I said, I'm kind of burned out too. I think we need a ghostwriter.

• 6:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, he was too burned out to write a book on burnout. Yeah.

• 6:49Speaker 02

  But you know how it is with academics, you know, the way we solve our own problems is by writing a book about it.

• 6:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:55Speaker 02

  But any rate, we did, you know, get a ghostwriter and as she was writing, we got more deeply into the intersection of self compassion and burnout and we learned a ton. I think that helped as well. But I was also burned out, somewhat different reason, you know, it was during the pandemic and I turned 69 years old and it was clear to me, I'm not going to live forever. And I started kind of resenting the work that I was doing, even though it was good work, it just, it didn't land the way it used to. So I would say a shift in core values as a result of my age made me really feel exhausted and not productive

• 7:36Speaker 02

  and somewhat detached from my work. And so, you know, I too, like Kristen, was kind of on the road to burnout. So it was a pretty exciting invitation that Kristen presented.

• 7:49Speaker 01

  And by the way, we should say, although we did initially start with a ghostwriter, it turns out that we did kind of have to rewrite everything because there is a certain level of expertise that goes with it. But it was so helpful that we didn't have to look at that blank page, that we just had to change the page that was already there. So that was kind of an interesting technique that actually I think made it a little easier for us to write the book. There was no blank page. But at the end of the day, it's probably like 90% ours or something like that. So.

• 8:20Dan Harris?

  Chris, let me ask you, because you talked about, in your own experience of burnout, you were talking about how like you were feeling disconnected and tired, like, so as far as I know it, there are typically three symptoms.

• 8:34Dan Harris?

  In burnout, can you talk about what those are?

• 8:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, so burnout is a long-term stress reaction that's characterized by three main components. One is exhaustion, which means feeling drained and fatigued, nothing left to give. The second is depersonalization, which means feeling kind of detached from our work, maybe a little cynical, negative about it. And the third is a sense of reduced accomplishment. Either we are not as productive or competent as we were before, or we just feel that way. And together, it's the consequence of long-term stress.

• 9:20Dan Harris?

  Well, okay, so Kristin, let me turn to you then. He said, it's the consequence of long-term stress. Can you say more about what causes burnout?

• 9:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, so basically, it's when the stress we're experiencing in our life exceeds our ability to hold it, or be with it, or cope with it. And so it may be stress of just a lot of work that we can't, we don't actually have enough time to get the work accomplished that we have assigned to us, or that's on our plate. It might be stress in terms of the environment we're in. Like, for instance, in the pandemic, which was very stressful, it wasn't so much that we were overloaded with work, but it was just all these other external factors, like the fear of our health and just everything going on, all the changes. So really, when we just, you know, the anxiety that's produced by the stress in our environment. By the way, it also can be some internal stress we put

• 10:12Speaker 01

  on ourselves. We certainly could exacerbate the stress we're experiencing if we fight it, or we resist it, or we kind of amplify it through a lot of negative thinking. So it can be both internal and external causes of stress. And again, if it overwhelms us, if we don't feel we're strong enough, or we have the resources to cope with the stress, the three things we do is we shut down with exhaustion. Another kind of shutting down is this depersonalization, just going a little numb. And then when we blame ourselves for all that stress, like, we feel like we should be able to, you know, cope, and we can't, what's wrong with us? That adds to the sense of incompetence.

• 10:49Dan Harris?

  So we talked about the causes and the symptoms, but what are the health consequences? And Chris, if you want to take that?

• 10:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, burnout can have a

• 11:01Speaker 02

  A huge effect on both the mind and the body. Actually, we could say that the majority of the physical difficulties that we experience in life, or at least partly contributed to by stress. So, physical consequences of burnout include gastrointestinal difficulties, cardiovascular problems, muscular problems. All the systems in our body are actually impacted by stress. When we're under chronic stress, then we don't sleep very well, and when we don't sleep well, it leads to chronic stress. And psychologically, we experience, in fact, enhanced stress, but it comes out in the form of anxiety, depression.

• 11:45Speaker 02

  Sometimes we respond to burnout with substance abuse or erratic behaviors. So, pretty much the whole panoply of physical and emotional ills can result from burnout.

• 12:03Dan Harris?

  And Kristin, do we have any sense of whether burnout is on the rise?

• 12:08Speaker 01

  You know, the studies are really all over the place, anywhere from 30%. Some studies find 70% of the population is suffering from burnout. So I think it's kind of hard to say. Certainly, right after the pandemic, burnout was probably at an all-time high, especially among healthcare providers, the people who are actually overwhelmed by having to deal with the health crisis. And since that time, it's probably lowered a little bit. You know, it's hard to know. It also may be that we're more sensitive to it than we used to be. A lot of things where there's an increased diagnosis, it's just we're more aware of the symptoms of it. I think in general, I would say yes, but the extent to which it's on the rise, it's hard to pin down. And I'm going to throw this open to Chris.

• 12:52Speaker 01

  Is there anything I should add to that, that you're aware of? I mean, it's a little vague, I find. It's a little mushy, this, right, some burnout. But what do you think, Chris? Anything I should add to that?

• 13:01Speaker 02

  There was a recent report by the American Medical Association that showed, since the pandemic, an actual decrease in burnout. It was 56% among doctors in 2021, then 53% in 2022, and in 2023, it was 48%. And, you know, the medical profession was... Celebrating because it's lower than 50%. However, what this means is if you're going to see your doctor, there's a 50% chance your doctor doesn't want to see you. So it's really just still way too high.

• 13:37Speaker 01

  Good answer.

• 13:40Dan Harris?

  How do you know if you're burned out? Kristin, I guess I'll go back to you. I mean, are there diagnostic questions we can run by ourselves?

• 13:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, so for instance, one of the most common inventories or ways to assess burnout, it's called the Maslow Burnout Inventory, and it actually does assess these three main components of burnout. You know, how exhausted you are. So that's one way you can just check in with yourself. Do you feel like getting out of bed in the morning? Are your energy levels, do they seem lower than they used to be? Right? Does everything feel like a huge uphill battle? So that'd be one way of checking in with exhaustion. The depersonalization, again, is this numb feeling. So for instance, if you work with people, let's say you're a doctor or a therapist, and maybe you seem to care a little bit less about the people you work with. You feel detached from them.

• 14:32Speaker 01

  Or maybe you start to feel a little detached from the people in your life. Or maybe you just feel a little detached from life in general, right? So this feeling of numbness, of just not caring as much, of course, which is the natural response of the heart shutting down under all the overwhelming stress. And then the last thing is just checking in about, how are you relating toward yourself? Right? Are you feeling like it's your fault that you should be elsewhere? You know, you should be doing better? That maybe it's because you aren't good enough or competent enough that you're in this mess, basically? And so those are, those are the main three ways we assess burnout. And so you can just ask these straightforward questions of yourself. Where do you fall? For instance, sometimes maybe you're exhausted,

• 15:17Speaker 01

  but you're still engaged and you don't blame yourself. Then that's going to be easier to bear than if you have all three simultaneously. It's something's wrong with you, you're exhausted, and you just don't care. Then that's going to be harder to overcome.

• 15:32Dan Harris?

  Yes, that makes complete sense. Just thinking about that. Okay, so what is self compassion? And how can it help? Chris, why don't you take that one?

• 15:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, so we can look at self compassion through an informal definition, which is that when we suffer, treating ourselves with the same kindness and understanding as we would treat a good friend, which typically doesn't happen. Up to 80% of us are more compassionate toward others than we are toward ourselves. And then there's a formal definition of self compassion, which Kristin created back in 2003. And I would like to leave it to her to share that.

• 16:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, so while talking about three components, there are also three components of self compassion. The most obvious one is kindness and warmth, treating yourself with support and encouragement as opposed to harsh judgment, or criticism, or blame, or shame. But there are two other elements that are important. One is mindfulness, actually. So mindfulness is built in to self compassion. So mindfulness in the sense that you're aware of your struggles with some perspective. So you aren't ignoring it. I mean, a lot of people who are burned out, for instance, it's just like stiff upper lip. I'm not even going to acknowledge there's a problem. I'm just going to like soldier on. So you can't give yourself compassion for your stress if you aren't acknowledging there's an issue.

• 16:59Speaker 01

  On the other hand, if you lose your mindfulness by being lost in the difficult emotions, like carried away from them, then it's also hard to have the stable place to give yourself compassion. So we need to be mindful of our distress and our stress levels. And then third, which is really key, and this is what differentiates self compassion from self pity, is the sense that this is part of the human experience. It's not just me. It's not my fault. It's not like I'm normal for experiencing this. All human beings struggle, right? So all human beings in a similar situation may have a similar type of reaction. And that sense of connectedness to others really empowers us when we don't feel so alone.

• 17:43Dan Harris?

  So the three component parts of self compassion are being kind to yourself, which, you know, treating yourself the way you would a good friend, mindfulness, which is just seeing clearly what's happening right now inside of yourself. And then third, as you say, common humanity, getting a sense that you're not alone in this. At any given moment, millions of people are dealing with whatever you're dealing with. How do those three components help with burnout? Chris, I guess I'll go to you.

• 18:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, each one has a big impact. First of all, when we are starting to burn out and don't know it, you know, addressing the first, the mindfulness component, when we don't know it, it just kind of rolls on without any capacity to change what's happening in our lives. But when we can feel the stress of burnout and particularly do it in a mindful way, which means with a kind of acceptance and non judgment, that really creates a foundation for changing our lives, either what's going on in terms of the internal

• 18:56Speaker 02

  causes of burnout or the external conditions. So mindfulness is the first step. Common humanity is also really important because when people are burned out, first of all, they blame themselves for being burned out, but they also feel desperately alone. And the more alone we feel, then the more we suffer. So the element of common humanity basically says, hey, burnout is part of the human condition. In fact, I would say two of the main causes of burnout are number one, you're human, and number two, you care about your work. And so it's really a very natural consequence of an imbalance between

• 19:40Speaker 02

  our resources and the stressors in our lives around our work. So that's common humanity. Then the third part, self kindness is really what is called for when we're suffering. And in particular, there are two aspects of that. One is the self kindness because when there's an imbalance between how we're Caring for others and caring for ourselves, we will inevitably be drained. But also kindness is really important. Shifting from a kind of threat-based, self-attacking way of relating to ourselves in the midst of burnout to care, you know, both care in a tender way, like, you know, if we haven't

• 20:23Speaker 02

  been having lunch, to start having lunch, if we haven't been sleeping, to make sure we get enough sleep, but also maybe in a fierce way, you know, being able to say to our colleagues or our boss, you know, I can't take this on this evening, I must go home, you know? There are so many expressions of kindness then, which really have the capacity to reverse the effect, the causes of burnout, as well as the effects of burnout.

• 20:50Dan Harris?

  There are so many issues raised by everything you just said there, Chris, and I just want to promise the listener that we're going to dive deeply into how to apply the three component parts of self-compassion to burnout. And we're going to talk about the difference between fierce self-compassion and what you guys call tender self-compassion. So a lot more practical stuff coming up, but let me just stay on a high level for a few more minutes. Kristin, you've been on the show many times, for which I'm grateful. And one of the questions I always ask you because, not because I'm retaining any skepticism about what you're talking about, but because I know a lot of listeners will be, so I'm going to ask you this question again, which is, I suspect there are listeners who are

• 21:33Dan Harris?

  going to say, yeah, well, if I've got a lot of shit to do, treating myself kindly is going to pretty much guarantee I'm not going to get it done. I need, I need to be stressed and anxious and self-lacerating in order to succeed. What say you in response to that?

• 21:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, so it's amazing how ubiquitous that misperception is. And I would say the research shows it's actually the exact opposite. So let's say you've got to meet a deadline and you're really stressed about it. And you beat yourself up, or you shame yourself, or you criticize yourself. You know, if you don't make it, you're a loser. Well, that's actually just going to add to your stress and anxiety. So if you care about yourself, in other words, if it is an important goal for you, you're going to go farther with encouragement than with beating yourself up. So what the research shows is your standards don't slip at all. You still care, you still want to reach the same goals. But the way you achieve them and the reason you achieve them is different. In other words, you aren't doing it to be a worthy person.

• 22:36Speaker 01

  You're doing it because you care and it's important to you. And therefore, this is huge if you have a setback or you know, something doesn't go the way you had planned it to. Instead of shaming yourself, again, which creates performance anxiety and stress and makes things worse, you say, what can I learn from this? You know, maybe what went wrong, it's okay, it happens. Everyone makes mistakes or things where I experience setbacks. But what can I learn from this situation? And so the research shows it actually improves performance, partly by reducing performance anxiety. So it'll help, it won't hurt. There's two types of coaches. Some coaches that just tear you down. Yeah, they kind of get something out of their players, but the players may also freeze in a difficult moment because they're so stressed out.

• 23:21Speaker 01

  There are those coaches who say, clearly, okay, what you need to do to improve your game, but I believe in you, how can I help? We can do this. And that type of encouraging motivation, we know, is just much more effective. So the same with getting out of burnout or getting your work done. It's the same principles apply.

• 23:39Dan Harris?

  Are there studies that go right at this, at self compassion for burnout? Chris, you want to take this one?

• 23:47Speaker 02

  There's actually a lot of research that shows if nothing else, self compassion is actually a splendid antidote to burnout. So for example, we have learned that self compassionate people are less exhausted and depleted by their work. They're less stressed and overwhelmed. They're less depressed, hopeless, or cynical. They're more able to maintain a work life balance. They're better able to draw boundaries with others. They're more, they feel more connected to others. They're better able to cope with work challenges. They feel more competent and effective. They, they're more satisfied with the work they do. The list really goes on and on.

• 24:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, we also have, we've done some studies actually training people to be more self compassionate. I did a study with, with staff at a children's hospital, you know, who are under a lot of stress. And we found that training them to be more self compassionate actually did reduce their burnout levels as measured by the Maslow Inventory. So, you know, this isn't just a good idea. We have a lot of research showing that it really works.

• 24:55Dan Harris?

  I mean, this is, Kristin, you and I have known each other for quite a while. I think I met you, you know, 15 years ago. And I was quite hostile and skeptical back then. And you just won me over with the data. I mean, over and over, there's just hard data to show that this stuff works. And then when I tried it, and I don't want anybody ever, you know, actually seeing me when I put my hand on my heart and talk to myself in a supportive way. But I do do it and it really, it really works in my experience as well. So, you know, I'm here as a reluctant convert. So one of the things you do, I just made reference to one of the many practices that are part of this body of self compassion research that the two of you have built.

• 25:38Dan Harris?

  One of the things you do in this new book is you list a bunch of tools. And tool number one, and I guess I'll start with you, Chris, on this. Tool number one is a, is a kind of self assessment. Can you walk us through this?

• 25:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, it's just, basically, it's just an assessment of how compassionate we are with ourselves in the context of work stress. I think maybe Kristin could respond to that even better than I could.

• 26:02Speaker 01

  Okay, yeah. And by the way, I should, we should probably clarify, you know, burnout often comes from work stress, but other types of stress, for instance, if you're in the sandwich generation and you're caring for a child and your elderly parents, so, which is work, but, you know, might be unpaid work, interpersonal work. Sometimes people get burned out, let's say, by politics or the world situation. So there's really many different sources of this stress that can lead to burnout. And so what we did, basically, and I'm going to admit, this probably isn't totally empirically supportive, but I used my self compassion scale, which has a lot of empirical support. We just asked people to respond to the questions

• 26:42Speaker 01

  in the context of how they deal with stress. So for instance, I tend to be kind to myself, or I tend to judge myself. I tend to feel all alone, or I tend to remember that this is part of the human experience, or I tend to be kind of balanced, or I tend to run away and exaggerate what's happening. So you can actually apply the self compassion scale to the context of burnout and get a sense of your score.

• 27:08Dan Harris?

  Okay, I'm going to move on because there are a bunch of tools I want to get to here, but that was very helpful. So tool number two, Chris, I'll go back to you for this. Essentially, in tool number two, you're asking, how would you treat a friend or a colleague who is feeling burned out? Can you build on that?

• 27:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, so for most people, the easiest way to activate a sense of compassion is by how we relate to others. Then, one way of actually learning what that is like and how to be compassionate with ourselves is to connect with how we treat others. So, generally speaking, we say here in the West, you know, love your neighbor as yourself, but since so many of us are frankly not so good at loving ourselves, then the question is, love ourselves as we love our neighbors. So if we can think about how we treat others when they are suffering, particularly in the case of burnout, when they're experiencing work

• 28:07Speaker 02

  stress, what would you say? What would your attitude be? What would your posture be? How would you lean in? To a friend and then to begin to contemplate, hmm, can I do this for myself? If I say to my friend something like, hey, you know, you are just working so hard and you're doing such good work. And it just seems to me, maybe you're not, you know, getting enough sleep. If I would say that to my friend, could I begin to say something like that to myself? Could I acknowledge how hard I'm working? Could I say to myself, could I acknowledge to myself what a contribution I'm making?

• 28:51Speaker 02

  And on that foundation, could I in fact, you know, sleep a little longer? So basically, the way home to self compassion is often through how we would treat others.

• 29:05Dan Harris?

  So are you saying that we could practice on other people? And then channel our mentorship capacity onto ourselves?

• 29:14Speaker 02

  Well, we don't, I guess we could practice physically with others. But mostly we know how we would treat a friend who was feeling burned out. And then just holding that in our minds. See if we can begin to offer ourselves the same mercy, the same kindness, the same compassion.

• 29:33Dan Harris?

  And so what does that look like practically? Is it, is it just having a conversation with yourself in whatever physical posture you happen to find yourself at that moment?

• 29:44Speaker 02

  Well, if we go back to the three components of self compassion, the first thing it does is just, you know, if you can acknowledge in another person, you could, you know, validate, yeah, you know, you're under constant stress, you're burned out. If we can say that to ourselves, that itself is an enormous relief. Second thing is the experience of connecting with someone who's burned out is also, in other words, common humanity is also inherently healing. And maybe when we're burned out, we're feeling isolated, alone, and we need to connect with others, or maybe we just need to notice that, you know, getting burned out is not a crime, that it's part of the human condition. So that helps too. In other words, imagining I'm treating

• 30:29Speaker 02

  somebody else in a mindful way with an awareness of common humanity. And then the third part again is self kindness. In other words, or kindness. What ways might I express kindness toward another person? Is it in my words, in different kinds of actions? Can I in fact, treat myself exactly the same way? In other words, with the same attitude, with the same language, with the same behaviors? And that then gets the self compassion train out of the station.

• 31:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, and let me just add on to that following on from get the self compassion train out of the station. A lot of people feel like, I don't know how to be self compassionate. I'm not used to it. This feels uncomfortable. It feels phony. But they are really used to doing it for others. So as Chris said, you kind of get the juices flowing, so to speak. You get the thoughts, you get the images. You're actually tapping in to a particular part of your nervous system, which is the parasympathetic nervous system. And so you kind of do a hack. You tap into what feels natural for others. And then you do this U turn. It's almost like a way of, you're really tricking yourself, but you're helping access through the portal of care for others, which you're more used to. So then you can start doing it with yourself.

• 31:46Dan Harris?

  You know what it reminds me of is in Metta, M E T T A meditation, otherwise known as loving kindness meditation, often we start by, you know, the traditional instructions are, start by envisioning yourself and sending yourself these classic loving kindness phrases like may I be happy, safe, healthy, live with ease. Many Western teachers have Come up with a hack, which is actually no, let's start with an easy person, like an animal or a kid, and then do a bait and switch. Once the, to use your phrase, the train has left the station, the warmth train has left the station, then we move to ourselves. This kind of reminds me of that. Does that land for you?

• 32:28Speaker 02

  That's precisely what it is, Dan.

• 32:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 32:31Speaker 01

  Bait and switch.

• 32:32Speaker 02

  It's a bait and switch. It's a U-turn. Yeah. It's learning to love ourselves as we love our neighbors.

• 32:40Speaker 01

  And I would just ask, so loving kindness meditation, although it's great, it's kind of very generalized, you know, may you be well, may you be happy, may you be peaceful, may you be safe. The nice thing about doing this with self-compassion is you could think, what if my good friend was in the exact same situation I'm in? You know, was caring for the elderly parent and had a job and had kids and all this stuff was going in their life and was struggling. It actually makes it a little more concrete. So I think it's almost easier to do this hack, so to speak, because you can really envision, well, what would I say in my exact same situation? And then do the U-turn. So that's partly why you might even say that self-compassion is a little bit more tangible than general loving kindness,

• 33:25Speaker 01

  because it's in the context of a particular instance of suffering and struggle. In this case, burnout.

• 33:33Speaker 02

  Loving kindness kind of sets the intention, it sets the attitude. But then self-compassion practiced in this form puts flesh on the bones. It gives it some individual texture.

• 33:45Dan Harris?

  Yeah, that certainly jabs with the way I experience it. You know, within a classical Buddhist context, and I'm not telling either of you anything you don't already know. I'm more talking to the audience here. But in a classical Buddhist context, there are these four, this is a bit of a grandiose phrase, but divine abodes, you know, these four states of mind that are all trainable. One of them is loving kindness, which you can think of as friendliness. Actually, that's a better translation, friendliness, a general sense of warmth. Another is compassion, which is specifically.

• 34:18Dan Harris?

  A desire to alleviate suffering. So it's more active and specific in that it's targeting suffering. The other two, just while we're at it, one of them is equanimity, which is just the ability to be balanced in the face of suffering. And we're going to talk about that because it's something that comes up in your book. And the fourth is mudita, or being happy in the face of other people's happiness, which is like the opposite of schadenfreude. I love that the Buddhists and the Germans differ in this way. But let's get back to self compassion for a second. Kristin, you talk, and I've had you on the show to talk about this at great length, but I think it's worth describing, at least briefly here, because it's going to come up

• 35:00Dan Harris?

  throughout our discussion, the difference between tender self compassion and fierce self compassion.

• 35:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, so if you think of compassion as generally the desire to alleviate suffering, which is actually the standard definition in the field of psychology, is actually the motivation to alleviate suffering. There's a couple of ways we can do that. So tender self compassion alleviates suffering through acceptance. So instead of, you know, judging ourselves so harshly or shaming ourselves, we accept ourselves as flawed human beings. We also accept the fact that, you know, our life is imperfect. And to some extent, that's okay. We embrace ourselves just as we are, with tenderness and warmth and a sense of connection. But alleviating suffering sometimes means acceptance, but sometimes it means action.

• 35:49Speaker 01

  So we don't want to accept like a bad relationship, for instance, or we don't want to accept behaviors we're engaged in that are harming ourselves or others. And so in this case, it's what I call fierce self compassion is taking action to alleviate suffering. So that might mean protecting ourselves. So protecting ourselves by drawing boundaries, by saying no, by speaking up. And by the way, this could be to ourselves or others. Providing for our needs, right? Actually saying that my needs count too, and some of my precious energy and resources are going to be spent on meeting my needs. And then really importantly, motivating change. It's not compassionate to just be complacent if we're unhappy or if it's harming us in some way.

• 36:33Speaker 01

  So a compassionate person will be motivated to make changes to help them be happier and healthier in their life. And so it's like yin and yang, though, they need to be balanced. And this is interesting in the context of burnout. Because if we're too much about the yang, fierce energy, yeah, motivating change, I can do it, I can get it done, I can work, I can, you know, reach my goals. But there's no tenderness, there's no acceptance of the fact that, you know, you are an imperfect human being and you aren't superhuman, then that actually could contribute to burnout. So we become exhausted. And I think in some ways, our culture encourages that. On the other hand, if we're too yin, if we're too much about being tender to ourselves, acceptance, and we do become complacent, right?

• 37:17Speaker 01

  We stop trying, or we stop making the changes we need in our life, that's not good for us either. So it really is about this balance of the fierce and the tender. And moment by moment, this is really key, asking yourself, what do I need right now? Do I need a little more fierceness? Do I need a little more tenderness? And it's not like it's, you get to one place, it's a constant process of balancing and rebalancing, orienting toward well-being.

• 37:45Dan Harris?

  This came up the last time Chris was on the show, actually, the first time Chris was on the show, this is only his second appearance sadly, we'll remedy that. But the first time Chris was on the show, I believe he described, what do I need right now, as the preeminent self-compassion question. And it's not just, do I need tender or fierce self-compassion? It may just be like, I need a snack, or I need a nap, or just constantly checking in, not in a self-indulgent way, but in a way that allows you to be fully resourced and fortified to be a good citizen and a good family member. Chris, am I restating this with any degree of accuracy?

• 38:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure, for sure. I think, again, it's about, you know, the specifics, right? And the more specific we can be, the more we can understand what it is that we need, and then, you know, miraculously give it to ourselves, we will experience compassion. Yeah, I mean, there can be a kind of general aspect to it in terms of attitude, but when compassion is delivered in a specific way, like if somebody gives you exactly a gift that you've been yearning to receive, and you had no idea you were going to get that gift, it has a huge impact. Well, we can do the same thing for ourselves. We can give

• 39:03Speaker 02

  ourselves those gifts that we really need. But they do, actually, you know, the different categories of tender and fierce compassion are kind of heuristic. They can guide us to give us what we need, because when we're, you know, in a bad state, like, for example, in burnout, and we ask the question, what do I need? We're probably hard pressed to answer that question. So if we can say, what do I need right now to feel safe? You know, then sometimes like, oh, yeah, what I need to do is just go home and hide under the covers for about an hour and recover, you know, then that makes a lot of sense. Or

• 39:46Speaker 02

  what do I need, as Kristen was saying, on the tender side specifically, what do I need to physically soothe myself? What do I need to emotionally comfort myself? What do I need to validate myself? You know, maybe I need to talk to a friend. Maybe I need to write in my journal. What do I need to protect myself? Maybe specifically, I need to have an important talk with my boss or my colleague. What do I need to provide for myself, you know? Maybe I need to nourish my creative instincts. Maybe I need to eat dinner. What do I need to motivate myself? Maybe there's something I really need to do, but it's hard to do. How can I be that inner coach, that inner ally that I need? What words in

• 40:27Speaker 02

  particular do I need to hear in order to do something difficult that's going to make all the difference in our lives? So this question, what do I need, is really loaded. But when we nail it, compassion blooms.

• 40:44Dan Harris?

  Kristin, as we've established, there are a ton of practices in this new book, practices where you can apply self-compassion to burnout. You actually have a practice designed around this question of, what do I need? Can you describe that?

• 40:57Speaker 01

  Yes, so one of the ways we can give ourselves what we need, or at least figure out what it is we need, is by using the three components of self-compassion. So again, always starting with mindfulness, getting clear, trying to use the clarity provided with mindfulness to figure out, well, how am I feeling unsatisfied or unfulfilled? And what might help fulfill me, right? Really, just authentically, what is true for me? Again, not just the standard advice that your culture says you should need. What is honestly true for me? What do I really need to be fulfilled? Right? And then common humanity, it's interesting. When it comes to providing for ourselves, it's not like my way or the highway that I care about myself more than others.

• 41:42Speaker 01

  It's just that normally, all our caring goes outward. We forget about our own needs. So how can I balance my needs with those of others or those of my work? How can I come up with a win-win solution? And so remember, it's just a simple process of including ourself in the circle of humanity, thinking my needs count too. So in this particular case, so I think what maybe I need is, maybe I need more rest, for instance. Okay, common humanity might be, okay, how do I balance how many hours of sleep I get maybe with the work I need to do, which is also important to me? And then the kindness is really validating the fact that you are worthy of getting your needs met. You know, as an act of kindness, for instance,

• 42:25Speaker 01

  getting the hours of sleep you need comes from your own heart as a way of literally caring for yourself through the physical rest you get through sleep. So you can actually break it down in these three parts. Again, so remember, it's being aware of what it is you need, or at least trying to figure out some sense of what it is I need. Common humanity means balancing my own needs with other needs, which are also valid. And then the kindness is making a commitment to giving yourself what you need. And so these three steps help get a little more specific about how we might meet our needs.

• 43:02Dan Harris?

  Thank you for that.

• 43:06Dan Harris?

  Coming up, Kristin and Chris talk about more tools for dealing with burnout, how to draw appropriate boundaries with your boss, and we talk about the inner critic and why we kind of evolved to kick our own asses.

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• 44:52Dan Harris?

  I want to go back to fierce self-compassion for a second. Chris, you were saying earlier about, you know, having a talk with the boss. I can imagine a lot of people listening saying, and hopefully these do not include the people who work for me, but maybe they do fit into this category. I can imagine a lot of people saying, well, my boss is an unreconstructed asshole and there's just no way I can talk to this boss and he or she or they are dumping unreasonable amount of work on me and I don't feel like I have the power to be fiercely self compassionate here. Chris, what do you, I'm sure this isn't the first time you're hearing that. How do you usually respond in these cases?

• 45:36Speaker 02

  Yeah. So first, just to honor that sometimes we simply don't have the power to do that. And when that is so, you know, that's a significant, you know, source of burnout and we need to be able to acknowledge that, to feel that, to be kind to ourselves in the context of that, and then also to make some choices, you know, so that can also be the case. However, the question that you're asking perhaps, Dan, is, you know, how does one draw a boundary, you know, with the boss or push back in a way that is ideally

• 46:16Speaker 02

  effective and doesn't cause more negative consequences than we would want? And that's a really interesting question. I think it comes back to what Kristen was talking about, which is balancing tender and fierce compassion. So tender compassion is often a sense of kind of knowing yourself and also authenticity. So what that means is if we're gonna draw a line in the sand, it has to come from a pretty clear, solid place of self-knowledge and self-awareness and actually what we need and can do and can't do. So in other words,

• 47:00Speaker 02

  from a kind of inner strength. And that tender self-compassion can give us a way of acknowledging what is real. And then the question is, how do we express ourselves in such a way that might be optimally useful? And to do that, it's really helpful to think of

• 47:22Speaker 02

  How to do it compassionately even toward our boss? So what does compassion mean? Compassion often means to see behind the surface, you know, behind the demands, behind the gruffness. Maybe your boss is, you know, struggling to make a deadline or something. And then you can say something like, I know you really want me to work till eight o'clock tonight. In fact, I understand that you even need me to do this. And this is really important for you. In other words, this is compassion because you are seeing into your boss.

• 48:01Speaker 02

  But I absolutely must go home today and I am so, you know, by dinnertime because blah, blah, blah. And I do hope that this will not throw any static in our relationship. In other words, how can we actually say this compassionately? First, we need to drop into our own experience, know what is real for us, and then express ourselves in a way that acknowledges the person we're talking to, but doesn't abandon ourselves. And this often ends up in very skillful expression.

• 48:39Dan Harris?

  So just to draw a line under that, there may be bosses who are just, the situation's unworkable and we should acknowledge that. But even with some difficult bosses, it may be possible to communicate in a way that takes their feelings into account while simultaneously asserting our own needs.

• 48:59Speaker 02

  Beautiful. Thank you. I wish I said it as clearly as you.

• 49:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think, Dan, sometimes the problem is, is some people, just to get along with their boss, just stop thinking about their needs. They just subordinate themselves because it's easier to get along that way. And so what self compassion says is, well, maybe I can't change the situation. Maybe I can't even get my boss to see reason, but at least I'm not going to internalize the idea that somehow my needs are less worthy. My needs are important. I have the right to get them met. In this particular situation, maybe it's not possible. But if I can kind of confirm and validate the fact that my needs are important, then when there is an opportunity to do something differently, including maybe getting a different job, I'm going to do that.

• 49:48Speaker 01

  So again, really making sure that you don't subordinate your own needs or fall into the trap of thinking that somehow you are less important than other people because you aren't.

• 49:57Dan Harris?

  Another trick I've heard in this regard, and trick is, I'm using that semi-facetiously, but another move I've heard in this regard is that when a boss asks you to do something, to give the boss an inventory of, okay, let's say I have X, Y, and Z things on my plate. If I add this in, some of those are going to have to be delayed. So let's work together to figure out the priorities.

• 50:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's great. But then the question from a self-compassion point of view is, what actually puts us in the spacious, equanimous frame of mind that we can actually say that? And usually, there's a lot of self-respect, as Kristin is saying, as well as respect of your boss.

• 50:40Speaker 01

  And you said you liked the data, Dan. I actually did some research, looking at how people, self-compassionate people, resolve conflicts, and not so much with bosses, but with other people, important people in your life. And what we found is that self-compassionate people, they don't prioritize their own needs, nor do they subordinate them. They tend to try to work out compromise solutions that take everyone's needs into account. And so if you can do that, you're more likely to come up with a good solution.

• 51:08Dan Harris?

  I mean, that goes to another finding that I believe we've discussed in prior episodes, which is that self-compassion is often correlated with, if not the source of, other compassion.

• 51:22Speaker 01

  Yeah. So do some people say you have to be self-compassionate before you can be compassionate to others? It's actually not true empirically, because in fact, most people aren't genuinely compassionate to others and treat themselves like crap. So it's not the case that you have to be self-compassionate before you can be compassionate to others. But what we do know is that when you start to be more self-compassionate, it does two things. A, this is really important, especially for a conversation, it allows you to be compassionate to others. Others without burning out. So in other words, if you give and you give and you give to others and you don't resource yourself, you are going to be drained. So it actually increases

• 52:07Speaker 01

  our ability to sustain being compassionate to others. And we also know, for instance, with those nurses and doctors we work with in the children's hospital, we train them in self compassion, that it actually did increase their compassion for others. Again, because they're resourcing themselves. So it's not like it's a necessary first step, but it really facilitates the ability to maintain and also grow your compassion for others.

• 52:32Dan Harris?

  I'm jumping around through this fascinating book, but I'm going to go back to chapter seven, which is a little bit earlier in the book than the stuff we're talking about. Chris, let me throw this to you. In chapter seven, the chapter itself is entitled, When Self-Compassion Feels Bad, and you talk about the notion of backdraft. Can you say more about all of this?

• 52:52Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. Well, this is my favorite subject. So thanks for asking, Ben. I actually discovered backdraft through my work as a clinical psychologist, because what I realized is that when we are really kind to somebody else, their defenses kind of drop down and then they start to reveal what is hidden inside and often traumas. And that can be overwhelming for people. But the term backdraft is a firefighter term. I think many people have heard it. If you go into a burning building and you're about to open a door, you want to be super careful if you open the door, because if you open it and the oxygen goes in and there's a fire behind there, you know,

• 53:35Speaker 02

  the fire will intensify, can be pretty dangerous. But a similar thing can happen with self compassion. You know, all of our hearts are hot with suffering. And when we open the door of our hearts and the love goes in, the compassion goes in, then the pain comes out. And when the pain comes out, we often think, oh, my God, I'm doing something wrong. You know, I can't even do self compassion. What's the matter with me? But what's really important to know is that this process is an

• 54:07Speaker 02

  Of the transformation process of of self compassion. That is to say, we're basically stirring the pot. You know, we're opening the door, the pain comes out. But then we can meet this pain with compassion and with mindfulness and with understanding, probably in a way that it was not addressed in the past. And that's why it got kind of stuck inside us somewhere. So self compassion gets things moving, but it gets things moving in a way that can sometimes be confusing. There's a little saying that kind of reflects this whole situation. That is that love reveals everything unlike itself.

• 54:47Speaker 02

  So if I start to say to myself something like, oh, may I accept myself just as I am? Inevitably, I'll think of the reverse, which is what is unacceptable about me? Or how was I treated unacceptably in the past? And when this comes out, we're likely to kind of, you know, freak out and blame ourselves. But it's it's actually really important part of the healing process. It's not that suffering is being created, it is being uncovered and it is available for healing.

• 55:21Dan Harris?

  Right, and I can imagine some people thinking, well, why would I want to shake things up in this way? And I would imagine your answer is it's in there anyway, controlling you from the corners of your mind in ways that are unpredictable. So you might as well let it come out and create a container to deal with it that is healthy.

• 55:40Speaker 02

  I think that's a courageous approach. I mean, it is true, Dan, that some people are just not in a place in their lives where anything, you know, more is tolerable. But that doesn't mean then, Dan, that, you know, self compassion is not possible. Then we need to shift more toward behavioral self compassion from mind training. You know, a lot of this reconstructive transformative work is happening more in the mind training aspect, but we can also be compassionate to ourselves behaviorally. You know, in other words, when we're suffering and we might isolate ourselves and blame ourselves, what would be like if I actually reached out and spoke to a friend and we listened to some music together? That's self compassion.

• 56:24Speaker 02

  It's behavioral self compassion and it's also very safe. So I guess that's what I'd like to say is, is that actually. People don't have to step up to this. They can also step back a little and still be compassionate to themselves and still learn self compassion by doing it behaviorally.

• 56:45Dan Harris?

  See, I just want to unpack that and make sure people get it. There are forms of self compassion that one could do as a kind of mind training, maybe even informal meditation, and that can shake loose some difficult stuff. If people listening are trauma survivors or in a very delicate, you know, in deep grief, they may want to titrate this very carefully, in which case a kind of behavioral self compassion, meaning I'm going to choose to do things in my life that will make me happier, more comfortable, more resourced, like hanging out with a friend, et cetera, et cetera. That latter category of what you're calling behavioral self compassion might be the better call in those cases.

• 57:29Speaker 02

  Exactly. Thank you for framing it so clearly. And it also circles back to what we were talking about before, Dan, when we were discussing, what do I need, you know, another one, what do I need to comfort myself, soothe myself? Often the answer to those questions is behavioral. It's what we call self compassion in daily life. And this is not a lesser practice. It's, it's actually what we can do most of the day because we're not going to be sitting in meditation for, you know, many hours on end, but we are going to be walking around and talking to people and being ourselves. Can we do that with self compassion? And when it comes to burnout, this is especially important because we're not meditating while we're at work.

• 58:13Speaker 02

  But can we care for ourself behaviorally in a self compassionate way at work? What does that look like? This is, this is how self compassion can really get integrated into our lives.

• 58:28Dan Harris?

  Kristin, the book asks a question that I get all the time, which is, why do we have this racing inner voice? Why do we have an inner critic? How did we evolve to kick our own asses so assiduously? What say you?

• 58:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, so I love to say to people, please don't beat yourself up for beating yourself up, because it's largely how our brains evolved. In evolution, when we experience a personal threat, we go into the fight, flight, or freeze response. And if you think about it, whether we make a mistake, whether we feel overwhelmed, we notice something about ourselves we don't like, or just something is difficult to realize, we feel threatened. And so we go into fight, flight, or freeze. But of course, we turn that response inward because we're the problem. And so we fight ourselves with criticism, you know, just because some part of us thinks we'll stay safe. We'll change our behavior, or maybe we'll criticize ourselves before others people do,

• 59:30Speaker 01

  and it won't hurt so bad. Or we flee into a sense of shame and isolation. You know, we kind of hang our heads to hide from the perceived judgments of other group members. Or we freeze, and we get stuck, and we ruminate. You know, we just think, well, maybe if I just don't do anything and go over the problem for the 57th time, the solution will appear. And so it's totally natural. It's the way our brain evolved to keep safe. Now, when your good friend has something happen, like faces a challenger, makes a mistake, you don't feel so personally threatened. So you're actually able to tap into a second system, which is also natural. It's called the care system, that actually evolved more to take care of others, you know, to take care of our family members or other in-group members.

• 1:00:15Speaker 01

  But so, in other words, when other people are in distress, it feels natural to be there for them, to care for them, to help them. Whereas when we're the ones in distress, it feels a little more natural to go into fight, flight, or freeze with ourself. So we are, again, doing a hack. So both systems are natural, the care system, and you might say the fight, flight, or freeze system. So we have to consciously try to move away from fight, flight and freeze when the threat is within us and move into the care system and make that U-turn toward ourself. It makes sense evolutionarily, but it's not so great for our happiness. So that's why we need to bring a little intentionality in here so we can build new habits.

• 1:00:55Dan Harris?

  Okay, so that leads me to another question, which you also cover in the book. And Chris, I'll throw this to you. How do we remember to do this? Because I think it's very easy to listen to a great conversation like this one, or read a great book like yours. You've written many of them. And then, and then we just get sucked back into our daily habits. So you have a whole thing here about creating a reminder. Can you, can you hold forth on that?

• 1:01:22Speaker 02

  Yeah. So I think this is probably the most important aspect of self compassion, which is to remember to do it. In fact, people who take the self compassion course, when we've asked them months later, you know, what did you get out of this? They said, well, I got permission to be kind to myself and I was reminded to be kind to myself to be compassionate. So reminding is really important. So how do we remember? So in the book, early on in the second or third chapter, you know, we talked about just putting stickums around the house that are just little reminders. So the invitation to be self compassionate becomes kind of omnipresent. But there's another aspect to this, which kind of runs

• 1:02:06Speaker 02

  through the whole book. And that is, we are way more likely to remember a practice which is relevant and which works. You said earlier on, Dan, you were a skeptic about self compassion. But then when you actually gave it a go, you thought, wow, this works. You know, I can put a hand on my heart and it changes my physiology. Actually, when we have a solution to a real problem, we remember. And so

• 1:02:34Speaker 02

  This book has 21 tools, but they're not all going to be helpful. If we put stickums around the house for, you know, all 21 tools, we'll probably just get dizzy. The main thing is to do a proper assessment of what is the source of burnout in my life. So if it is, well, I can't say no, then remind yourself what it takes to set a boundary. If we decide my problem is I'm too perfectionistic, huh, then maybe I need to address shame. Or if we think I just don't enjoy my life enough, that's why I'm burning out, then

• 1:03:16Speaker 02

  maybe go into the chapter on sabering ingratitude. Or if somebody says, you know, this, my job is just meaningless to me, huh, maybe I need to affirm my core values, things like that. So when we know what it is that is bugging us at work, probably in this book, you will find a tool. And then it's easy to remind yourself because it works. And you can even then add some reminders in some form or another so that give you an extra boost.

• 1:03:50Dan Harris?

  Coming up, Kristin and Chris talk about more tools for dealing with perfectionism without letting go of high standards. And they also talk about the concept of being a compassionate mess.

• 1:04:06Speaker 03

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• 1:05:08Dan Harris?

  You talked about perfectionism. Let me ask you about that, Kristin. There's a chapter here called "The Perfection Sinkhole", which I love. And then there's an accompanying practice called "Letting Go of the Need to be Perfect". Could you say a little bit about all of this?

• 1:05:22Speaker 01

  Yes, I can imagine that might resonate with you, Dan.

• 1:05:26Speaker 01

  Speaking to an ex-perfectionist.

• 1:05:27Dan Harris?

  What are you talking about? Ex? I don't know. I don't know.

• 1:05:31Speaker 01

  So having high standards for yourself, wanting to be the best is absolutely nothing wrong with that. The problem with perfectionists is you start tying your sense of worth to getting it right, to getting it perfect. That's a problem because you are still a human being, even if you're a very high-achieving human being, and you will make mistakes. And so if instead of seeing those mistakes as an opportunity to learn and grow, and you start seeing them as an indictment of your self-worth, then what happens is, first of all, you'll never be good enough, right? Because you are a human being. And then when you come up a little bit short, you create more stress on yourself, you judge yourself, you feel less competent, which makes it a little more likely

• 1:06:16Speaker 01

  that you're going to make mistakes in the future. And that's when the sinkhole starts, right? I mean, you can look at it at some of these top-level athletes who are perfectionists. If they make a mistake, sometimes they just fall apart. Like you can see in football players, sometimes in the championship game, some quarterbacks say, "Okay, I missed that throw. Well, I'll just do better next time." And some have the thought, "Oh, no. What does this say about me?" And then they kind of fall apart. So that's why self-compassion is so good for perfectionists, because it says, "Yes, you can have high standards. Go for it." But your standards and whether or not you achieve them have nothing to do with your self-worth. Your worth is unconditional. You're worthy just because you're a human being who feels and who loves and who, you know,

• 1:07:01Speaker 01

  who wants to be happy and safe in their life. And then any sort of achievement you create is just because it comes from love. It comes from the desire to express your full self and not in order to gain a sense of self-worth. And so making that shift is huge. I'm going to give you a little data again. Dan, we actually published a study last year with elite NCAA athletes. So these are top-level college athletes in the USA. And you know, you might say they're perfectionists because they have to be at the top of their game if they want to go on to the pros or keep their scholarships. And we taught them to be self-compassionate about their failures and setbacks in training routines. And so we got them again to kind of disentangle their sense of their worthiness as a person

• 1:07:46Speaker 01

  from winning the game, from just, yeah, I want to win the game because I care and this is what I love to do. And we found that it actually increased their athletic performance. So again, you don't have to give up your high standards. You just have to change what those, meeting those standards means about your self-worth. It has nothing to do with your self-worth. You do it out of love, not because you're afraid you won't be good enough if you don't achieve.

• 1:08:10Dan Harris?

  Can you describe the practice that we might do that would help us, you know, get better at this?

• 1:08:14Speaker 01

  So one of the ways we can use self-compassion to work with perfectionism is we can just, you know, imagine what are we afraid of if we fail or we come up a little short against our goals? What am I afraid it says about me? Am I afraid I'll be a laughing stock? Will I feel some shame in some way? There's often a strong vein of shame and perfectionism. We're ashamed if we don't get it right. And then so you can actually just think about what this might bring up for you. And then actually be compassionate about this fear. You know, imagine if you had a friend who said, I'd be so ashamed and I'd feel so bad about myself if I didn't win this championship game or if I didn't get the A plus on the test.

• 1:08:58Speaker 01

  And you would probably say to your friend, hey, your worth does not depend on getting it right. You're great just as you are regardless of whether or not you win the game or you get that A. So you can do something similar for yourself, right? Just imagine, I mean, say something to yourself like, you know, you're doing the best you can. All humans make mistakes. This is how we learn and grow. So in other words, we honor the anxiety and the stress that comes up when we imagine that we may not be perfect. But then we remind ourselves that our worth comes from being an imperfect human being, not from getting it right all the time. And then when we can really take that message in, that's when we start to let go of the

• 1:09:40Speaker 01

  perfectionism without necessarily letting go of our high standards.

• 1:09:45Dan Harris?

  Nice. Well, I have a few minutes left, so Chris, let me throw the final question to you. The book ends with an exhortation to become, and this is a quote, "a compassionate mess." What do you mean by that?

• 1:10:03Speaker 02

  I think if we're completely honest, we could say that most of us have a kind of messy aspect. If we look at humanity right now on this planet, things are kind of a mess. So a mess really means our humanity. You know, we are often confused, suffering, uncertain. Being human is kind of a dodgy undertaking, you know? We're vulnerable beings. And so that's what a mess is. But the invitation is to be a compassionate mess. By the way, this phrase comes from a meditation teacher in Scotland named Rob Nairn.

• 1:10:45Speaker 02

  So a compassionate mess means that we hold our humanity just as it is, right here and right now, in a compassionate embrace, that we're not trying to get rid of who we are. We're not trying to be somebody else. Jack Kornfield said it really beautifully. He said, "The point is not to perfect ourselves, but to perfect our love." To perfect our love. That means, that means when things go wrong in our lives, including with burnout, that our first response

• 1:11:25Speaker 02

  His kindness, our first response is compassion. And many people, when they hear this, you know, they hearken back to the old misgivings about self compassion, like, oh, it's just gonna make me complacent, or I'm gonna be like this for the rest of my life, you know, horror of horrors. But actually, that doesn't happen. Carl Rogers says, "The curious paradox is that when I accept myself just as I am, change seems to come about almost unnoticed." And so, this is the invitation. When we suffer, particularly when we suffer with burnout, can we turn toward ourselves

• 1:12:04Speaker 02

  just as we are, embrace ourselves just as we are in compassion, and see what happens?

• 1:12:13Speaker 01

  Can I add something to that, Dan, too? One of the reasons Chris and I love that phrase is, what's also happening is a kind of foreground, background shift. So normally, the mess is all we're thinking about, you know? In the case of burnout, we're just mainly thinking about how burned out we are, how incompetent we are, how exhausted we are. And that's really, it takes up most of our attention. But when your goal is to bring compassion to the mess, what happens is more of your attention and your awareness is filled with compassion itself, you know, with feelings of loving, connected presence, which is another way of describing the three components of self compassion.

• 1:12:53Speaker 01

  So the mess is still there, but even more salient is the love that's holding the mess. And that loving, connected presence actually feels really good. And you can find, even in a moment of messiness, of distress, of exhaustion, of pain, you can actually find some fulfillment, some peace, some connectedness, some love, just by focusing on the compassion part of holding the mess, as opposed to just the mess itself. It's really quite remarkable, the shift that makes.

• 1:13:27Dan Harris?

  I buy it.

• 1:13:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's alchemy.

• 1:13:29Dan Harris?

  Alchemy, yeah.

• 1:13:30Speaker 02

  It's alchemy, yeah.

• 1:13:32Dan Harris?

  Right, but it's so not obvious. What we want to do is avoid our suffering and the suffering of others by shopping, or gambling, or drinking, or swiping, or distracting, or binging, or whatever, and yet somehow tuning into it internally or externally.

• 1:13:54Dan Harris?

  Feels better. Before I let you go, just please plug the new book and anything else you want us to know about.

• 1:14:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, so the new book is called Mindful Self-Compassion for Burnout: Tools to Help You Heal and Recharge When You're Rung Up by Stress. It's actually an easy read. We did that intentionally. It's small, it's light, it's funny, because the last thing you need to do when you're burnt out is to read like a heavy tome of a book. It's also very action-based. Each chapter has a little story in it, and it has a tool that you can use to help you with burnout. And also, just something I would like to mention, you mentioned the fact that it's hard to remember to be self-compassionate. And one of the ways to make it easier is by connecting to others who have similar goals as you. So I've actually recently created

• 1:14:45Speaker 01

  something called the Self-Compassion Community, which is a subscription model, but where people can talk with each other, share with each other, come to live events where we're discussing compassion. And that's an easy way to remember your goal when you're surrounding yourself with other people who have a similar goal. And maybe you forget, but they remind you of it. So that's something that I've been doing since the beginning of the year, and I'm really excited about bringing people together and the shared intention of bringing more self-compassion into the world.

• 1:15:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, and I can perhaps add, some other resources on this subject are the previous books that Kristin and I have, but also, we created the Center for Mindful Self-Compassion, which has many different offerings. There are over 3,500 mindful self-compassion teachers around the world. There are many opportunities to connect, even free offerings through the Center for Mindful Self-Compassion. The thing to think about, frankly, is that even if you don't directly address burnout with self-compassion, as we grow in self-compassion, the chances are really high that you will, in fact, be less likely to burn out. And for

• 1:15:56Speaker 02

  those who are interested in additional materials from this book, like a sample chapter and so forth, you can go to Guilford Press and plug in Mindful Self-Compassion for Burnout. And I'm also happy to say that I spent 20 hours in a recording studio, and had the privilege of actually creating the audiobook for this particular book. And so...

• 1:16:23Speaker 02

  That's also an option for those who are interested in going deeper. Thank you.

• 1:16:28Dan Harris?

  All right. Well, thank you both. Really appreciate it. It was awesome to have you on and thank you for your work.

• 1:16:32Speaker 01

  Thanks, Dan.

• 1:16:33Speaker 02

  Thank you, Dan. Thanks for all you're doing and for this.

• 1:16:40Dan Harris?

  Thanks again to Kristin and Chris. Just to say, I'll be a guest speaker in conversation with Kristin on March 5th. In partnership with her self compassion community, we'll continue to explore the role of self compassion in my own life. And how I integrate it into my work and lots of other areas, my relationships, lots of stuff. I'll leave a link to Kristin's self compassion community in the show notes. And before I go, you know what's coming. I want to thank everybody who worked so hard to make this show a reality. Our producers are Tara Anderson, Caroline Keenan, and Eleanor Vasili. Our recording and engineering is handled by the great folks over at Pod People. Lauren Smith is our production manager. Marissa Schneiderman is our senior producer.

• 1:17:25Dan Harris?

  DJ Cashmere is our executive producer and Nick Thorburn of the Van Islands wrote our theme.

• 1:17:39Speaker 04

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