Book Club Meets: Meeting their ex, jealousy, and heartbreak, with Aisha Muharrar

Loved Ones – the Happy Place Book Club pick for September – tells the story of Julia, whose first love Gabe dies aged 29, launching her into a world-wide quest to recover the possessions he left with friends and acquaintances across the world. It also brings her into contact with the last woman Gabe loved... In this chat, Fearne and author Aisha Muharrar wonder what would happen if you met others who had dated the same person as you. Would you get on and have loads in common? Or would there be intense jealousy? They also explore the strange idea that different people know and love very different sides of you. Aisha was a script writer on TV show Parks and Recreation, and she brings that comedy and levity to the messy topic of grief in Loved Ones. Writing her debut novel was very much a new challenge though – Aisha explains to Fearne why she pretty much had to re-write the whole book! Enter our competition with Bookshop.org to be in with a chance of winning books for life here: https://woobox.com/9jfwes Thank you to Fourth Estate for the use of Loved One audiobook, narrated by Emma Ladji. If you liked this episode of Happy Place, you might also like: Book Club Meets: Cally Beaton https://pod.fo/e/329307 Book Club Meets: Emily Henry https://pod.fo/e/2e0585 Book Club Meets: Lorna Tucker https://pod.fo/e/2cf8fc Child on the line is a three-part documentary podcast series celebrating the Volunteer Counsellors of Childline, and the brave children & young people who contact the helpline service. Listen here: https://www.childonthelinepodcast.com/ Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Hi, I'm Natalie Dormer and I'm proud to be an ambassador for Childline. This year, Childline turns 40. To mark it, I've made Child on the Line, a three-part documentary podcast. We hear why children needed a helpline in 1986, how it was built against the odds and the challenges children face today, from abuse and mental health to social media and AI. Search Child on the Line and listen wherever you get your podcasts.

• 0:29Speaker 01

  There was no bride. There was no groom.

• 0:31Fearne Cotton?

  Hey, welcome to the Happy Place Book Club with me, Fern Cotton.

• 0:35Speaker 01

  A blue dot next to Julia indicating a preference for fish.

• 0:39Fearne Cotton?

  Today, Loved Ones by Ayesha Muharrar.

• 0:42Speaker 01

  Multi-generational crowd pleaser. No maid of honor fiddling with a sheet of white printer paper, unfolding it from eighths to fourths, then taking a theatrical deep breath before she says, "Okay, so..." Which made sense because it was not a wedding. But there were approximately 100 of us gathered at Berkeley City Club, a grand Italian Renaissance revival building often rented out for private events, like weddings. And there were two sections of dark wood folding chairs, separated by a wide stripe of hardwood floor, an aisle if you will. And more important, it just felt like it should have been a wedding. It's what we did that year. We went to weddings.

• 1:25Speaker 01

  Not together, though Gabe did ask the year before, when the invitations went out and before he'd started dating Elizabeth, if I'd be his plus-one to the Tokyo wedding of his percussionist and backup vocalist. They'd met on tour with him. I would have loved to go to Japan, but I already had another wedding on the same day. By September, I'd been to six and RSVP'd to three more. I was 30. Gabe, born the same year but in December, was 29. And apparently, we'd entered that stage of life where if you haven't nailed down your version of semi-formal cocktail attire, you'd better do it quick, because that's what your weekends were going to be for the next decade. This perpetual wedding season was such a well-known truth about people our age, that

• 2:10Speaker 01

  I could feel an awareness of it in the room as I stood up, clutching my own folded sheet of printer paper, and began to speak about my dear friend Gabe. It was one of the things I had to avoid saying in Gabe's eulogy. The obvious thing, that he was only 29 and his death was so sudden by anyone's estimation. It would have been more likely I was speaking at the happiest day of his life.

• 2:38Fearne Cotton?

  So September's Book Club Read was Loved Ones by Ayesha Muharrar. It's her debut novel and it tells the story of Julia, whose first love Gabe dies aged 29, launching her into a worldwide quest to recover the possessions that he left with friends and acquaintances across the world. It also brings her into contact with the last woman Gabe loved. It is completely gorgeous. I adored it and so did you lot. This is Hannah.

• 3:06Speaker 03

  This book completely had me in its grip when I was reading it. The exploration of love, loss and grief is just outstanding. Muharrar delves into the ins and outs of living life after losing someone so close to you and how to deal with all those questions that will now never be answered. The characters are so bold and so well-developed and the humour really brings a refreshing edge to the writing and to the story. I absolutely fell in love with this book and I hope so many other people do too.

• 3:37Fearne Cotton?

  Oh Hannah, I'm so glad you loved the book. Letitia, you've had some amazing thoughts too.

• 3:42Speaker 04

  I really enjoyed Loved One. I thought this book did such a great job exploring the complicated, messy, difficult to navigate aspects in life. I love books that explore situations where you think, I have no idea how I would handle this if I were the main character. How does someone approach such an impossible and tragic situation that Julia was put in? The complex relationships were probably the most interesting to me. I really got a lot out of seeing how the two women figured out how to come together and that they actually really needed each other.

• 4:23Speaker 04

  And the realisation that is bittersweet, that no matter how close you are to someone, Still never get the full personhood of them. And there is another relationship that did get a different side to them. And the battle of figuring out like which version is their true self. And the reality, understanding that it's all true, it's all accurate. Like a person is a multitude of things. Um, and grief really is very difficult. Um, especially when you don't have closure. So overall, such a great read. Um, and I'm really glad that this came out. And I think she's a great writer and I really look forward to seeing what else she comes out with.

• 5:03Fearne Cotton?

  Well, I had so much fun chatting with Ayesha. We had a really good laugh. We talked about the mad realization that everyone has a very different view of who you are as a person. Exactly like Letitia, I just picked up on. And do you reckon if your exes, God forbid, were in a room together, that they'd get on? We talk about that too. Ayesha also explains why she basically had to rewrite the whole book. Madness.

• 5:34Speaker 05

  Network freedom and flexibility. That's what you want in a healthcare plan. With a Humana Medicare Advantage PPO plan, you can see any doctor in the country who accepts Medicare, including specialists. No referrals, no kidding. Learn more at gethumana.com. See any doctor who accepts Medicare and is willing to bill Humana. Humana PPOs may not be available in all areas. Benefits and costs share may vary. Humana is a Medicare Advantage PPO organization with a Medicare contract. Enrollment in any Humana plan depends on contract renewal.

• 6:05Speaker 05

  It's time. It's the most wonderful time of the year. Halloween.

• 6:13Speaker 05

  And you guys know we don't do Halloween by halves. Full costume, full prosthetics, full commitment. I'm a rat. And I'm the chef. It's our Ratatouille special. Ben, we're grabbing our broom.

• 6:23Fearne Cotton?

  Sticks for the witches.

• 6:26Fearne Cotton?

  We've got a spooky hotline caller. An update from our woman who was in love with the ghost of Prince Albert. And your tarot card dilemmas. Listen to our Halloween specials. Search for The Girl's Bathroom.

• 6:42Fearne Cotton?

  Right, let's do it. Here's the show.

• 7:05Fearne Cotton?

  Hey, Ayesha.

• 7:06Speaker 06

  Hi.

• 7:07Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, it's so nice to properly meet you. I love your book, Loved One.

• 7:12Speaker 06

  Thank you so much. I'm very excited to meet you. I have listened to the Happy Place podcast and I don't know if you have the app anymore. Maybe it's not in America, but I was on the meditation app and it was like my favorite meditation app. Yeah.

• 7:27Fearne Cotton?

  What? This is blowing my mind. What's going on? Oh my God, you've discovered our little happy place world. I'm so thrilled. And look, we're so excited because obviously your brilliant book has been our Happy Place Book Club pick for the month of September. And we've just loved reading it. I took the book on holiday with me and I think it's the perfect, perfect read. When you're really knackered and you get to a lovely location. I was in Ibiza and just to get lost in this world that you've created, it was just beautiful. I loved it.

• 7:58Speaker 06

  Thank you so much.

• 7:59Fearne Cotton?

  So I've seen a couple of interviews with you talking about the book and I know this particular idea, this love triangle that includes grief and self-discovery and friendship and romance and comparison and everything in between. This came to you whilst you were in the back of a cab or certainly like the idea was initiated there, right?

• 8:22Speaker 06

  Yes, I was in a cab. I was in New York and I was with my friend. We were in the backseat of a cab and she was telling me that her friend was dating my ex-boyfriend. And he had been a totally great boyfriend, amicable breakup, no notes. But her friend was not having a good time with him. And she was saying, I recommended him based on what you said.

• 8:45Fearne Cotton?

  Like he's a product.

• 8:46Speaker 06

  I know. And I was like, I'm not Yelp for boyfriends. Like, I don't know what to say. So I was like, OK, but, you know, and we laughed about it. But then it stuck in my head, this kind of romantic Rashomon. Like, we can be different people in different relationships. I didn't really have an answer for her. I mean, I stuck by my experience. He was a good boyfriend to me. I don't know what had happened in the years since. If he changed, if it was this specific relationship dynamic, like, you don't really know. But I found that very interesting, you know, like, we change so much with time. And even if it's like a week apart, if you're with different people, they could bring out different sides of you or different trigger points. Like, who knows?

• 9:27Fearne Cotton?

  It's so interesting. Like, I think about that all the time. Even, you know, if we can, if we look at our own lives and we sort of, maybe narcissistically, put ourselves right in the center of that, the nucleus of our lives. You can see how each person would have a completely different tale about, you know. Like, to some of my friends or family members, I'll be the very sort of loud, entertaining one. But then to other friends, I'm the more sort of introspective, quiet person in the crowd. And it, or, you know, you're the one that's a bit feisty and up for confrontation. But then in another dynamic, you're not. You're the one that takes the backseat. It's so interesting that everybody has a completely different view of who you are.

• 10:07Speaker 06

  It's absolutely true. I took, um, I took a road trip with my husband when we were newly engaged. And I had taken a lot of road trips with my friend Amanda. And she's very like, take charge, mama bear. She's the one in control. And I just like sit back and then I was going with my, at the time fiance. And he was like, OK, like, let's get ready. And I was like, OK, what have you planned? And he was, you know, like, he was expecting me to do the plan. And I was like so used to Amanda that I was like, this is not like my trip. With Amanda, I get to relax. And I was like, oh no, I'm the Amanda now.

• 10:37Fearne Cotton?

  You're the Amanda, yeah. I find that fascinating. And actually, the thought of having, like you express in the book, two exes, two ex-partners in the same room together, and how their views would differ, is fascinating slash terrifying. A terrifying prospect.

• 10:56Speaker 06

  Yes, and that's kind of the first scene that came to me. It was these two women in the restroom at a funeral of this ex that they shared. And I knew once, Elizabeth, she basically confronts Julia in this moment. And like, once I had that scene, it's just like you're saying, there was just so much drama and conflict inherent in that. And they could go back and forth, back and forth about who this person was. And they're also both hiding things from each other. And yeah, that was kind of the first scene I wrote. And I was like, okay, I think there's a lot more here. I want to know more about these two women and their dynamic.

• 11:29Fearne Cotton?

  And it was so interesting seeing how they were sort of, you know, rubbing against each other in ways, sort of pissing each other off. But equally, they found little moments of connection, and they were sort of slightly in awe of each other at points. And then also so interesting to see the, it's almost like a sort of mental competitiveness. I'm sure we will have all felt at some point, whether it's to do with an ex or a current partner, where you're comparing your relationship with, in this case, it's Gabe, who has died. I'm not, that's not a spoiler alert. That comes up very, very suddenly in the book. But, you know, they're trying to sort of mentally do the maths to work out who was closer to him, who knew him best, you know, who had a more, sort of a deeper connection.

• 12:12Fearne Cotton?

  That was really, really interesting.

• 12:15Speaker 06

  Oh, thank you. Yeah, there's a competition there, and I think it's envy and jealousy. And I also thought, like, there's so many, there are instances of like, Okay, it's two women, one man. Like, there's even a joke in the book, like, is this going to be a catfight? And I wanted to really see, like, two women who are aware of those stereotypes and tropes, what they would do, because they would have all of these emotions, but they would want to handle it. They would try to handle it in this, like, respectful, dignified manner. And then what would happen as they tried to do that? And the other thing, like, you were mentioning, they're also kind of drawn to each other. They're getting along in a way. Like, in another setting, if they'd met at Gabe's birthday party or his concert, they might have been, you know, fast friends.

• 12:57Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 12:57Speaker 06

  But they're meeting at his funeral. And they're also, they both dated him, so they're both his type, too, in a way. So there's this, also, this thing that I've always wondered, and I feel like my friends have too, where if you get two X's in the same room, like, maybe they'll get along because, oh, like, this is the type that you like. Like, they're very similar. They, or will it be kind of like, oh, no narcissism of small differences? Like, now we're clashing and we really don't like that? But I thought that was, that was something I really wanted to explore in it, too.

• 13:26Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah. And you've also got some very specific locations, one of them being London. It's very much where I live. Why was London on the list? Why did you want to explore that in the book?

• 13:36Speaker 06

  There are a lot of reasons I chose London. I do personally love the city, and I spent time there. I spent, my husband and I spent, like, three months there, living. So I did want to have a place I was familiar with. The other reason was she's, Julia's starting in LA, and I did want it to feel like a stark contrast where she ended up. A place with no seasons and entering a place with very clearly defined seasons.

• 14:00Fearne Cotton?

  Yep.

• 14:01Speaker 06

  Also, again, yeah. Also, again, this idea that Elizabeth and Julia are two sides of the same coin, in a way, and I like the idea that, like, technically, they're speaking the same language, English, but they just have very different points of view. So any chance I could just, like, show how they're similar, but then there's this just communication difference, differently how they see things. And I thought that, yeah, there were, those were the reasons I chose, and I chose the city. And I'm glad I did. Like, I also wanted, it's a book about grief, and there's also funny moments and light moments, but I knew there would be a lot of intense feelings. And I chose London because I wanted a place where I could kind of... Write about the city, this beautiful city and the charming aspects of it that I love,

• 14:43Speaker 06

  so that we could be getting that through Julia's eyes, even as she's struggling in other areas.

• 14:48Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, and I could so picture Elizabeth's restaurant, the kind of cool East London vibe, that's, you know, kind of a bit French and chic and everyone's a bit cool in there. You know, there's, those places exist, that is for sure.

• 15:02Speaker 06

  Yeah, no, definitely. And I feel like I, there was a mashup of a few different places in London, some in Paris, some in New York, some in LA, that I kind of put together. And that was a really fun part of writing it, actually. I got to look at different cookbooks and get a sense of Elizabeth's life. Yeah, that was very fun.

• 15:18Fearne Cotton?

  It was great. I love when books jump from location to location. You really feel like you've taken a trip, you've landed there. You've also got Barcelona in the mix as well. Why Barcelona?

• 15:27Speaker 06

  Well, Gabe and Julia meet in Barcelona. They're studying abroad. And to some extent, it's again, write what you know. I've been to Barcelona and I had a friend who did a study abroad program there. And then I also had two friends who'd done a study abroad program in Greece, but I'd never been to Greece. But I kind of used those two, like just talking to different friends about that experience. I never studied abroad during college, but I was always fascinated by it. And I liked the idea of Julia going there for an adventure and then meeting someone who wasn't even in her program. And then, also like, Julia is, she's at that point not sure what she wants to do with her life, but she is interested in art history. And it just seemed like a wonderful city. There's the unfinished Gaudi, so it's like that relates to Gabe too, and, you know, his unfinished

• 16:11Speaker 06

  work. So it kind of came together. Some things were intentional, but then it was kind of great how some things just started coming together in a way that I was in. And I was like, oh yeah, this works out perfectly. It's nice when you find those little moments while you're writing.

• 16:26Fearne Cotton?

  I mean, you've worked on a lot of big, you know, Emmy award-winning TV shows, like Hacks. What did you find to be the main point of difference, writing in that style to then tackling fiction?

• 16:39Speaker 06

  Well, I think, you know, I started in fiction, actually. I, I was, went to college. I wanted to write prose. I wanted to write short stories and novels. I applied for a creative thesis and I didn't get it because I made a mistake on the application that like triggered a bunch of perfectionist anxiety like for years after.

• 16:57Fearne Cotton?

  No.

• 16:58Speaker 06

  I, it wasn't even the writing part. It was just like the introduction essay and they were like, it was so close, we had to decide. And I'd like, I just used the wrong author's name. I was quoting an author, but I'd put like the wrong author and I was devastated. I was, it was one of those moments where like, this is what I want to do with my life. What am I going to do? Senior year of college. And then I had a gap in my schedule and I took a screenwriting class. And I had this amazing professor and she introduced me to a lot of movies directed by women, written by women. She was so encouraging and she encouraged me to apply to USC for grad school for screen and television writing. So I went to LA like sight unseen. I was just like, I'm going to go to LA and I'll probably end up back on the East Coast because I'm from New York. I'll just give this a go. And I, I never left. I've just been here pretty much since then.

• 17:42Fearne Cotton?

  Last fight.

• 17:44Speaker 06

  Yeah, I worked as an assistant and then I worked on Parks and Recreation and was just like really fortunate to have worked on great shows and wonderful actors and just gotten to do amazing work. But then when Parks ended, I did have this kind of moment where I thought, okay, I'm at this point in my life. You know, I did want to write that novel. I did want to write prose fiction. Maybe I should try that now. And I did. So I, I just like kind of went for it because it's like, it's not going to get easier if I keep waiting.

• 18:11Fearne Cotton?

  No, no. And it's such a, it's such a funny thing, isn't it? Like having an idea, we, all of us have ideas all the time, but then actually committing to doing it. There, there can be a canyon of time or, or, you know, you can just keep ignoring that idea until the whisper gets too loud. But at some point, you've just got to open your laptop and just bloody well start.

• 18:30Speaker 06

  Yeah, just start and keep going. And like, I think that also when you're busy with something else, because I had a full-time job, it was only once I had like that little pause, it was like, oh, right, I want to do this. And you're right, there was a gap between I want to write a novel to, well, what is the idea of a novel? And that's when like, you know, that cab ride and other things started kind of coalescing in my head, but it took, took a bit.

• 18:51Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, it does. And I love that. I love how ideas take shape. And then it gets to the point where it's so fully formed, you, you believe that world exists like it's out there somewhere, living independently.

• 19:02Speaker 06

  I know. Like, I miss Gabe. Like, there were times when I was very worried.

• 19:05Fearne Cotton?

  I miss the book. Like, you know, it doesn't happen often, but you have a book where you're like, I want to be back with them. Like, where are they? I hate that. I'm like grieving it still.

• 19:16Speaker 06

  Yeah, that's such a good thing to hear as a writer, but as a reader, I get it, too.

• 19:20Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, you're bummed out. Totally bummed out.

• 19:22Speaker 06

  Yeah, you want them back.

• 19:26Speaker 05

  Network freedom and flexibility, that's what you want in a healthcare plan. With a Humana Medicare Advantage PPO plan, you can see any doctor in the country who accepts Medicare, including specialists. No referrals, no kidding. Learn more at gethumana.com. See any doctor who accepts Medicare and is willing to bill Humana. Humana PPOs may not be available in all areas. Benefits and costs share may vary. Humana is a Medicare Advantage PPO organization with a Medicare contract. Enrollment in any Humana plan depends on contract renewal.

• 19:58Speaker 05

  It's time.

• 20:00Speaker 07

  It's the most wonderful time of the year. Halloween. Halloween.

• 20:06Speaker 07

  And you guys know we don't do Halloween by halves.

• 20:08Speaker 06

  Full costume, full prosthetics, full commitment. I'm a rat.

• 20:11Speaker 07

  And I'm the chef. It's our Ratatouille special. Then we're grabbing our broomsticks for the witches.

• 20:18Speaker 06

  We've got a spooky hotline caller.

• 20:20Speaker 07

  An update from our woman who was in love with the ghost of Prince Albert. And your tarot card dilemmas. Listen to our Halloween specials, search for The Girls Bathroom.

• 20:35Fearne Cotton?

  How do you like to write? Where do you write? What time of day? What works for you? I'm fascinated with the process.

• 20:40Speaker 06

  With the process, yeah. I, you know, if it's, I'm right now in a room for hats. I'm in the writer's room. So I'm working with a group of writers. So I start the day in the morning. My daughter goes off to school and then I join the writer's room. If I'm not in the room and it's just my own writing, I try to write in the morning. I always have this really romantic idea of like jazz music playing. Looking out the window and then it ends with like, oh, an email popped up. And then suddenly I'm doing that instead. So I don't know. I have this idea, like my best writing days are when I get that like four hours in the morning. But especially with a kid, it doesn't always happen that way.

• 21:16Fearne Cotton?

  No, and it's so weird with writing, isn't it? It's either you have a day where, I mean, I don't, this is how certainly my brain works. I'll have a day where I'm writing and I will be in flow and nothing else exists. And, you know, I've forgotten the world around me is kind of still spinning. And then other days, it's like a clunky sentence and then I have to get a snack. Another clunky sentence. And then I'll think, oh, just call someone because I can't concentrate. Another clunky, and everything is like very stop star and jarring. And it's, it's so, there's just such a lack of consistency with the process. It's utterly amazing slash frustrating.

• 21:53Speaker 06

  Absolutely. And then it feels, it is like you're driving and you're like stuck in second gear and it's taking forever. And then you'll have a day where it's really flowing and those days are great, but then they also can be so, like they kind of get in your head later because you're thinking like, oh, that day when I was in the flow and it was just so great. And then you're one of the clunky days and you have to just get through that. But you do have to, I mean, I feel like that's the best advice I've received about writing. It's like just to keep going and really sit with the revision and just see what comes out. Because there are those days. Sometimes it feels like, wait, I don't know how to write. I don't, what happened? Like I, I suddenly don't know.

• 22:27Fearne Cotton?

  I've got no words. I've got no good, I've got no good adjectives. Where are they?

• 22:32Speaker 06

  The sentence doesn't make sense. And then, you know, then you get there and you're like, it's happening.

• 22:37Fearne Cotton?

  It's so frustrating. Which character do you think came easiest for you?

• 22:42Speaker 06

  Oh, that's such a good question.

• 22:45Speaker 06

  Actually, well, I think actually Gabe kind of came easiest, even though a lot of the book, he's not, the point of view isn't there. But, you know, kind of how he was raised with his mom, like that was similar to my upbringing. He knew what he wanted to do from a young age and I knew I wanted to be a writer from a young age. So I got Gabe in that way. Julia was difficult because, you know, I'm used to writing in TV, like really funny characters who just say whatever pops into their head. And I'm kind of like that too sometimes where I'm just like sputtering on. But Julia was really keeping things close to the vest and she's just a much quieter character. So that was an interesting process, kind of getting in her head and yeah,

• 23:30Speaker 06

  just holding back a little bit in the writing of her. And whereas Elizabeth, it was great because she really had, she was just kind of saying things as it came to her. So that was really fun too. But I love all of them, but I think in terms of, oh, I really get this person. I got Gabe. And then I originally wrote the book from Elizabeth and Julia's points of view.

• 23:48Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, right.

• 23:49Speaker 06

  Like when I first, the first draft. And then I realized that was taking all the tension out because you'd have a chapter would say, Julia would say, I wonder what Elizabeth is thinking. And then the next chapter would be Elizabeth was thinking this.

• 23:58Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 24:00Speaker 06

  That's not gonna work. But it helped to know her when I did switch to Julia's point of view, it helped to know Elizabeth.

• 24:06Fearne Cotton?

  I mean, that's, that's quite something, isn't it? You know, you can, you can say that in one sentence right here on this podcast, but I know from writing that to make a monumental change like that, you know, whether you'd written the whole book or were partway through it, to change the point of view from someone is a big deal and takes a long time. Were you at any points like, oh, I can't be bothered with this, it's just too long?

• 24:29Speaker 06

  I was like that at point A to point Z, the whole process was like that. I tried to get out of it. I kept like starting them, be like, you know what? I think I am just gonna go back. And it was tough because, you know, like the third person also, if, you know, that also feels more like TV, you're kind of looking at everyone. You can, you can make little jokes and show things that the narrator can't see. And then suddenly I'm just in Julia's point of view. And even small things like how a character would describe. Themselves, you know, I had written a description of her that I love so much. But it's like, if someone described themselves this way, they'd sound like a narcissist.

• 25:02Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 25:03Speaker 06

  So just little subtle things like that. But yeah, I really resisted. I've been doing, um, book events and people ask me about writing. And I, that's the advice I give where it's like, if you feel like something needs to be done, just do it because it probably does need to be done. And you're just delaying the inevitable because I definitely spent a lot of time, you know, being like, oh, maybe I don't have to do it. Okay, I'll do it a little bit. Oh, no, maybe I'll switch back. And it just had to be done, you know?

• 25:26Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah. And, you know, I think it just is a long process. There is no way around it. There's nobody out there that can do a book quickly. Well, you know, it just, it is laborious and parts of it are really boring. I think, you know, the bit where you get the idea is like, oh, my God, everything fireworks. Pew pew. This is so exciting. I can't wait. I want, I just want it to like land on the page. And then you have to do that bit, the translation from brain to laptop, which is long, long, long, long.

• 25:55Speaker 06

  It's so long. And I think, I think Anne Patchett said there, it's like, when you start writing in your head, you have like a grand cathedral. And then when you're done, it's like a serviceable shack. And you're like, wait, what? It was like, the plans are so, the plans are so clear in your head. And then you're looking at the page. It's like, huh?

• 26:14Fearne Cotton?

  What? Yeah. Why didn't it go in there? I don't understand. Why doesn't it come out of my brain perfectly formed? It's, there is a weird alchemy, isn't there? Because like you say, you can see everything in your mind's eye so visually and beautifully. And you can feel all the emotion of it. But to translate that, I mean, that is the skill of certainly a great fiction writer. Maybe it's slightly different. I write more nonfiction than I do fiction. But with fiction, I think it's such a skill when you read a book and you feel like you're there and you understand the emotions at play. It's, it's such a, and sometimes, like you say, like you can nail it and you feel like, yeah, I'm, I'm doing it. And other times it's just like, what is the absolute dog shit? What is this? It's so hard.

• 26:53Speaker 06

  And that's like, like the revision to keep going. I feel like, yeah, that feeling though, it's not even if, when someone, a reader gets it and they're in the world that you wrote, it's not even, it is like, oh, I, I nailed it in that. Like there's some pride there, but it's also like this amazing kind of magical thing that happens. And I feel like that always reminds me of why I wanted to be a writer. Like I was a little kid reading a book in the library and I was just like, this is the coolest like trick. How did this person do this? I don't know who they are. I've never met them. I'm in this world and I was like, I want to learn how to do that. That seems so cool. And so I like, that part is like, it's like you're struggling with it. You're trying to get it. You think you've got it. Like it's the shag. It's not a cathedral, but you can live there. It's fine.

• 27:36Speaker 06

  And then someone up to you and is like, I loved my stay at your shag.

• 27:41Speaker 06

  It was like, it actually felt like more of a, like a maybe two floor house to me. It was like, oh, great.

• 27:48Fearne Cotton?

  It's so wild. And it's also, I guess you're, you're in the glorious part of having a book newly out into the wilds where you're hearing other people's perception of your story. You know, you can only hope that the total fantasy world that you've created translates to other people. And of course, that's going to translate in an entirely different way every single time someone reads your work. And, and that's a strange moment.

• 28:15Speaker 06

  It's, it is. It's very, I mean, I take it not, I guess, yeah, I take it seriously in a way because I feel like you're, and once the story is out there, like the book is out there, I felt like it's really not mine in, in a certain way anymore. I've read enough to know that, and I've been in enough book clubs myself to know that people have wildly different interpretations of the same book. Like I think, I was in a book club. I think there was only one book that we all agreed that we love. Like every, it's just very different for everyone. So I was aware of that. And I've had people at events come up and share different things. And you know, the book is about loss. So people have shared their experiences with loss. And I had a woman who was um, older than me who'd lost her husband. She was a widow.

• 28:57Speaker 06

  And she was saying, well, you know, of course you, you get it. Like I, I, I lost him. And then she um, she like found a box of letters from his old girlfriend before they were together. So it wasn't even a cheating thing, but she still felt weird going through his things. And she was, I think maybe in her seventies. And she was like, but you get it. And I was thinking, well, no, I don't get it. It actually, I wrote it, but I don't get it, but like that it felt very, I felt kind of, you know, it was just a good feeling and honored to be honored to be part of her story in that way now that she feels like she was seen in some way through the characters, even though when I was writing, I wasn't thinking, oh, there's going to be a widow who sees this and she'll feel like I was thinking about, you know, people are like, it's just been interesting to see different people to see how everyone reacts to it.

• 29:41Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, and just knowing that, yeah, you've moved people and that you're connecting to to people through, you know, fiction, it's, it's, it's, it's a remarkable thing and I, you know, I feel the same, I, I've been moved by so many brilliant books that are fiction over the years, probably more than nonfiction, and it is so amazing how you can just be completely transported to another world, to new characters, but they teach you something about yourself. It's, it's, it's pure magic. I absolutely love it. Which books would you say have changed your life or, um, or you've just very deeply connected with? Could be fiction, could be nonfiction.

• 30:18Speaker 06

  Yeah, so many books.

• 30:20Fearne Cotton?

  I know. Do you know what? When anyone asks me this question, I'm like, I can't think of a single book, not one. I can't think of one book, not one.

• 30:30Speaker 06

  Well, you know, I, I love the book The Color Purple and I, I read it kind of late in life. It's one of those classics that people talk about, like I should have read it when I was ten or something, but I

• 30:39Fearne Cotton?

  I've not read it.

• 30:40Speaker 06

  Oh, it's, it's amazing. It's, it's epistolary, like there's letters, which you don't, I, no one talks about that for some reason, at least for me. I didn't know that's how it was written. And I just feel like it really encompasses all of life in one small book. It's like joy, heartbreak, disillusionment, love, regret, like so many things in one book and it's both the very like lowest lows of feeling, but then these high highs, like these two sisters who love each other so much. And it's really just a book about love and life. And I was surprised by a lot of the themes that I didn't know about, um, going into it. And there's kind of a strange love triangle in that book too, but it's very lopsided in that there's just one character who's interested.

• 31:24Speaker 06

  The other two aren't really concerned with that character.

• 31:26Fearne Cotton?

  Right, right.

• 31:27Speaker 06

  But it's really good. And then, um, In terms of this book, I really love High Fidelity, Giovanni's Room. Both of those books are kind of looking back at relationships or seeing what, where exactly did we go wrong, what happened here? And I've read High Fidelity when I was in college and I was like, oh, men are terrible. And then I read it, I read it in my twenties and then I was like, oh, I'm terrible because I just had a breakup. I was like, I'm terrible. And then I read it later and I was like, oh, we're all just doing our best. You know, like, I like when a book can grow with you as, you know, you can read it at different stages in your own life and get something different. So High Fidelity has definitely been that for me.

• 32:09Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, I need to reread that. I've not read that for years and years. And so what's going on now? Because obviously you're back to your actual amazing day job, but are you going to create more space for another fiction?

• 32:20Speaker 06

  Oh, yes, definitely. I definitely want to keep writing. I am writing right now, fiction. I want to continue doing both, I think, as long as I can. But yeah, I really, I've really enjoyed working on the book. It's a different type of writing. You're, you know, you're alone, you're by yourself, you can go a little deeper with characters. And also, this book takes place in a very specific span of time, like a very specific time. And I'm looking forward to maybe, you know, going, going out more. Though there are flashbacks too, obviously, but just like, it's just nice to have a new project. It's again, it's that delusional period now where I'm like, it's great, I'm so excited, it's gonna be flowing.

• 33:00Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, I hear you, I so hear you. I actually, I started writing another fiction probably a year ago and then I parked it because I'm now writing a nonfiction. And I'm sort of terrified to go back to it because I'm like, I don't even know what happens in it. I can't remember, I'm gonna have to read like 48,000 words to even know what the hell it is about anymore. It's like, oh my God, it's just, it's the best but worst thing ever, writing a book, that's for sure.

• 33:25Speaker 06

  I know, you do have to go back and dive in. That is one thing that is a huge difference with TV writing and writing a book is that if I wanted to see if a script works in TV, it's like, okay, write 30 pages and then I can know if it works.

• 33:37Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 33:38Speaker 06

  But to be like, like- I was with that draft. I wrote the whole thing and I was like, okay, this is the equivalent of thirty pages for a book is like two hundred pages, rough draft. And then it's like, oh, wait, I have to start over like that. I kept trying to find shortcuts to be like, can I kind of figure it out in like a little short outline or something? And no, I had to do the whole thing.

• 33:57Fearne Cotton?

  No, there is no short in book world, that is for sure. Well, look, we absolutely loved Loved One. So much. It's just the perfect read. We've had so much amazing feedback from people reading along in the book club, which we're we're absolutely loving. So thank you. Thank you for writing a beautiful book and thank you so much for your time today.

• 34:17Speaker 06

  Thank you for having me and thank you for choosing Loved One. I'm honored. I'm really glad that people are reading it. Thank you for.

• 34:23Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, Ayesha, I love that so much. I really hope that Ayesha comes to London soon and we can hang out and maybe like walk around East London and be the characters in the book. I would love that. What a clever, brilliant, wonderful woman. Right. Do you want to know what book we're reading together in October? Oh, I've been waiting for this book. I've just been sat there waiting desperately. It's All the Way to the River by Elizabeth Gilbert. I am obsessed with Elizabeth Gilbert. She's one of my all time heroes. I still talk about that chat I had with her about seven years ago all the time. I reference it constantly.

• 35:04Fearne Cotton?

  This is her first nonfiction book in a decade and it charts her electric heartbreaking relationship with her partner, Raya, who died in twenty eighteen. You can come and join the book club and discuss this book with us on Instagram at Happy Place Book Club. And while I've still got you, we've got a really exciting competition this month brought to you in partnership with bookshop.org. You could be in with a chance of winning Books for Life in the Golden Bookmark Competition. If you haven't heard of them, bookshop.org is an online bookshop whose mission is to support local and independent bookshops. When you shop with them, you can choose a specific bookshop to support and they'll receive thirty percent of the money you spend or almost all of the profit on your orders for.

• 35:49Fearne Cotton?

  Or you can just order through the website normally and 10% of the money you spend will contribute to an earnings pool that's then evenly distributed among participating independent bookshops each month. Basically, it's an easy way to shop for books online that helps support independent bookshops. With the Golden Bookmark Competition, one of you will be able to win a £250 bookshop.org gift card every year for life. What? All you need to do is head to the link in the show notes and fill out the form to be in with a chance of winning. Good luck. I'm jealous if you win that one. All right, until next time, a massive thanks to Ayesha, to the producer, Anushka Tate at Happy Place Studios, and to you, love your loads, bookworms.

• 37:01Speaker 07

  I've got big news. I switched to Verizon and got the new iPhone 18 Pro. Shh. I can keep my old phone and I also get the latest iPhone every year. Shh, anything else? Verizon let me choose Apple Watch Series 12 or iPad on them. Everybody, listen up. Shh. Switch to Verizon and get the new iPhone 18 Pro now. No trade in needed. And the latest iPhone every year with Simplicity Plan. Plus, choose Apple Watch Series 12 or iPad on us. Simplicity Plan with Simplicity Pro required. Plan and device payment purchase are separate agreements with separate terms. Service plan for Watch or iPad required. Additional terms apply for all offers.

• 37:31Speaker 05

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• 38:17Speaker 05

  And something happens when you're out there, feet on the ground, surrounded by nature. The conversations just spill out of you. This series is about the adversities that lead to adventure. The adventures that lead to adversity. And how life can be one big adventure in itself. Listen every Thursday. Just search for Boots Off.