Is your routine a strait-jacket? How to enact change, with Donna Ashworth

Do you dream of pivoting your career or lifestyle later in life? Poet Donna Ashworth did just that. She began to question the busy, fast-paced, perfectionist lifestyle she assumed was the norm, and decided to start posting and performing her beautiful poetry in her 40s... In this chat with Fearne, Donna explains how she copes with the nerves that come with doing something so new, including hypnotherapy and simply admitting out loud that she’s anxious. She also reflects on how she realised she’d been living with depression and eating disorders for a long time. If you’re not happy it’s up to you to apply change or you can’t expect different outcomes. Donna talks through how to work out if your routine is deliciously comforting for you, or if it’s become a strait-jacket that’s holding you back. Plus, she shares why it’s helpful for others if you’re able to disclose your own ugly truths and flaws. Donna’s latest book of poetry, To The Women, is out on the 13th of February. If you liked this episode of Happy Place, you might also like: Naomi Watts https://pod.fo/e/2a7df4 Poppy Delbridge https://pod.fo/e/20f942 Kate Silverton https://pod.fo/e/2281ae Child on the line is a three-part documentary podcast series celebrating the Volunteer Counsellors of Childline, and the brave children & young people who contact the helpline service. Listen here: https://www.childonthelinepodcast.com/ Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Hi, I'm Natalie Dormer and I'm proud to be an ambassador for Childline. This year, Childline turns 40. To mark it, I've made Child on the Line, a three-part documentary podcast. We hear why children needed a helpline in 1986, how it was built against the odds and the challenges children face today, from abuse and mental health to social media and AI. Search Child on the Line and listen wherever you get your podcasts.

• 0:29Fearne Cotton?

  Well, hello and a massive welcome to Happy Place with me, Fern Cotton. Now, this is the show that encourages you to embrace your perceived flaws. Today, I'm chatting to Donna Ashworth.

• 0:41Speaker 02

  The love lives in the sharing of the ugly truths. Because you can show everybody into your lovely home, or here's my new dress and my lovely holiday, and that's great. We all enjoy that and we share that and it's fun. But if you let somebody in to your ugly, your moment where you just weren't a great version of yourself, or you know, underneath the beautiful exterior and into something that is vulnerable, you've given them a gift.

• 1:11Fearne Cotton?

  Guys, how are you all? It's February, in case you hadn't realised. How are you faring? I'm doing all right, you know. I've become re-obsessed by The Beatles' Get Back documentary, which came out about three years ago, and I'm re-watching now. It's eight hours long. I feel so excited watching it again. It's like I've not seen it before. And that has led me to dress like George Harrison. Maybe indefinitely. I'm really enjoying it. I'm currently sat here wearing a little neckerchief. I've been hugely inspired yet again. I'm very sponge-like with The Beatles. I might even, no, I'm not going to cut my hair like this, that would look ludicrous. I'd look ridiculous. But I'm completely obsessed. And again, it leads me to remind myself of how important good music is.

• 1:56Fearne Cotton?

  I've been blaring Let It Be, that amazing last album from The Beatles, non-stop. So if you are feeling a little bit shit today, don't forget to put on music that you love. I know it's an obvious thing to say, but I sort of forget that. And music just has the power to make you feel so amazing. And I'm hoping you feel the same about poetry, guys. Because we today are talking to the lovely Donna. Where do I start with Donna? Well, she's a Sunday Times bestselling poet now. But when she started her social media accounts in 2018 as a way of creating a safe social space for women to connect over shared experiences, she did it anonymously. Now, more than 10 books.

• 2:40Fearne Cotton?

  She wrote a lot of books in a short space of time. And 1.8 million followers later, we get to know who the incredible woman behind these beautiful poems is. Her latest book is To the Women, a real celebration of the beauty, strength and joy of being a woman. Oh, bloody hell, we talked about a lot here. I feel like me and Donna needed to really get a lot off our chest and we almost sort of vented during this conversation. We talk about coping with nerves and also hypnotherapy, which Donna has found incredibly impactful. Also, talking about stuff in midlife, which feels really important because especially as women, it can often seem that when you reach a certain age, you are no longer needed in society. You're not interesting, no one's looking at what you're doing

• 3:24Fearne Cotton?

  and you certainly don't have a second chance, which is bullshit. Donna has proved this by doing the biggest pivot very successfully later on in life. Also, talking about finding the courage to share deeply personal creativity with the world, which, again, I needed to hear because I love writing poetry and I don't think I've ever posted a single poem on Instagram or anywhere. Far too nerve-wracking, feels exposing, will people hate it, etc. So Donna personally helps me get over that one. And do stick to the end because Donna is going to read in her sensational, soothing Scottish accent, a poem for us, which is gorgeous.

• 4:07Speaker 03

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• 4:52Speaker 05

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• 5:25Fearne Cotton?

  Right then, here we go. This is the show.

• 5:49Fearne Cotton?

  Donna!

• 5:50Speaker 02

  Fern!

• 5:51Fearne Cotton?

  This is exciting.

• 5:53Speaker 02

  So exciting.

• 5:54Fearne Cotton?

  It's really exciting, although we just had an off-mic chat that I'm bringing to the mic. A meeting of minds where you've just come out of recording your audiobook. Which is an intense experience.

• 6:04Speaker 02

  It is.

• 6:05Fearne Cotton?

  And how you're feeling post being in that booth locked in a cupboard for so long.

• 6:08Speaker 02

  A little bit mad.

• 6:09Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 6:10Speaker 02

  There's something about hearing your own voice in your own ears and not being able to get up and walk around and sort of being faced with your own writing and doing it straight for sort of four hours that sends you a bit loopy.

• 6:24Fearne Cotton?

  It's not normal, is it?

• 6:25Speaker 02

  It's not normal.

• 6:27Fearne Cotton?

  And it is when you start to question everything you've written, although it's too late because it's about to be published.

• 6:31Speaker 02

  And if you do a word wrong, you have to go back and correct it because it doesn't match the text. So you have to stick to the script.

• 6:38Fearne Cotton?

  It does send you...

• 6:39Speaker 02

  You can't just change it at the last minute, which is tough.

• 6:42Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, it's a very intense experience.

• 6:44Speaker 02

  It is.

• 6:45Fearne Cotton?

  So to meet you in the middle, yeah, just shake it off, Donna, shake it off. Just to meet you in the middle, I'm delirious because I've had a kid off school every day this week from Monday, and it's now Friday that we're recording this.

• 6:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:57Fearne Cotton?

  Had my son off for two days, then my daughter off for two days, and then my son again today. And I've gone completely delirious. I don't know what is going on, what time of day it is, where I am. I am just happy to sit here and chat to you today. As you might have noticed with my little notepad here, which many Happy Place viewers and listeners will be aware of, I'm fastidious about my research and my note taking. Today, I feel wildly out of control.

• 7:24Speaker 02

  So I can make it up then?

• 7:26Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, we both can. It's going to be a chat where we wing it.

• 7:28Speaker 02

  I could just tell you anything.

• 7:29Fearne Cotton?

  You quite literally could. But I am, I'm so glad we're getting to do this because we've worked with each other in other guises. You've performed at the Happy Place Festival for a couple of years with great applause and recognition. I mean, you've had huge crowds gathered around to watch you recite your poetry. And you can see people really holding on to each word and people are really, I guess, in that moment, expressing how meaningful your words are to them. It must be, I mean, it's nerve wracking to read your poetry aloud, but it's a lovely experience to have a live audience, I'm imagining.

• 8:02Speaker 02

  It is, and funnily enough, the Happy Place was the first time last summer that I had stood by myself in any capacity with a microphone and read out my poetry. So the Chiswick Happy Place on the Saturday was the first time. And it was probably the best place I ever could have done it because the crowds at Happy Place.

• 8:24Fearne Cotton?

  They're lovely.

• 8:25Speaker 02

  They're just beautiful. Everybody's there looking for connection, for better wellbeing. They're all seeking the light and joy and trying to, you know, make friends with one another. So it was beautiful, nerve wracking, but I really, really enjoyed it. And the way you had it all set up with the dream catchers and the sort of breeze, it was quite magical.

• 8:50Fearne Cotton?

  I mean, I watched you perform and it was so gorgeous, but it is, it is nerve wracking, you know. I, I guess I'm pretty well versed in speaking in front of people and it's something that I really, really enjoy.

• 9:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 9:03Fearne Cotton?

  But it hasn't always been like that, of course, when I first started out, it's incredibly scary. And still now, if I'm faced with a really big crowd, of course you feel nervous. And, and people come up to me all the time and say, you know, how do you stop those nerves? What do you do when they really kick in? I was doing an event on Wednesday and someone came up to me. We were doing this sort of double handed event and, and she was like, God, how do you stop the nerves? And I don't think you do. I think you just learn to live alongside them and cope

• 9:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 9:28Fearne Cotton?

  better with them. Do you have any techniques that you employ before you go out on a stage now?

• 9:33Speaker 02

  I mean, I had hypnotherapy.

• 9:35Fearne Cotton?

  Did you?

• 9:35Speaker 02

  Because that's how nervous it was making me because I started writing poetry in my mid forties to share it on social media. I didn't sort of set out to do it. It all happened very organically. So when it came to pass that people wanted me to actually say it, I had to sort of pull myself out of this sort of middle, midlife place where I'd gone, I can't do anything new. I can't go and stand on a stage. So, and then I used to perform when I was younger, I was a singer. So somewhere in there, it's there and I knew I could access it if, if I would get past my fear and all of the imposter syndrome and all of these things that we bury ourselves with.

• 10:16Speaker 02

  So I thought, right, hypnotherapy, I believe in hypnotherapy because it gets past your, your thinking and into your subconscious. And then I took an online class with someone who taught public speaking. Because it's my worst nightmare, public speaking. I mean, I'm just so amazed by people like you who do it so well. And, um, but I thought if I know more about it, I'll, I'll be more confident. And that was brilliant. That was like a forty five minute session. Within the first ten minutes, I knew she'd given me enough already. That it would help me. And it was a few things, like where you put your feet, how you stand, you know, uh, how you move. And as soon as she said it to me, I thought, well, that's grounding, like when you're doing a meditation.

• 11:00Speaker 02

  You ground yourself, you know, to the core. And you're, you've, you've got your power, you know, you've got your control back. So that was invaluable. But I'm a real believer in just say it out loud. So I get this thing and everybody tells me, stop telling everybody about it, but. I get a really dry mouth and I get an Elvis lip. So my lip sticks to my teeth when I start doing this Elvis thing, which is not great, Fern, when you're doing poetry.

• 11:28Fearne Cotton?

  No.

• 11:29Speaker 02

  So the only way for me to get past that, if I can't get a quick drink of water, is to tell the audience.

• 11:35Fearne Cotton?

  Yes.

• 11:35Speaker 02

  And then it's gone.

• 11:37Fearne Cotton?

  Say it, own it.

• 11:38Speaker 02

  Yeah. And it disappears.

• 11:40Fearne Cotton?

  Yes.

• 11:40Speaker 02

  So whether it's a self fulfilling prophecy that I'm creating myself, but I did an event with Pam Ears. Last summer at the Morecambe Poetry Festival. And somebody introduced me to her and said, have you any advice for Donna? And she said, well, don't tell anybody that you're nervous. That was the worst.

• 11:57Fearne Cotton?

  No, I want to tell the world. Pam, you don't understand.

• 12:01Speaker 02

  And I said, oh no, Pam, that's the one thing I always do. And she went, don't do that.

• 12:06Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, no, I, I'm, I'm sorry, Pam, but I'm with you because I had it with panic attacks. The best thing I could do if I could feel one coming on was to tell the person I was with. Because the more it lived in my head in an isolated manner, the bigger it became. And I would be panicking like, oh my God, I bet they can tell. They know something's up. What if I faint? Was always my sort of worst case scenario if I was driving or on a stage.

• 12:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 12:32Fearne Cotton?

  And there was one time where I had to do some filming driving on the motorway and I'm luckily fine on the motorway now.

• 12:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 12:37Fearne Cotton?

  Overcome it, but for five years I couldn't drive on the motorway. And I was filming a TV show where I had to drive on these big A roads and I could feel it coming on and I just said, right, I'm just gonna let you know, sometimes I have panic attack when I'm driving on a motorway, actually, most of the time, so I just wanna say that out loud so that you know. And because I'd said it, I felt so much more in control. And I, it was on the edge, but I didn't go into full panic.

• 13:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, it didn't get you.

• 13:02Fearne Cotton?

  Something about just saying it and owning it. And also, I think with the work you're doing, you know, your poetry is connective. And I think just being honest and telling people, yeah, I'm this poet with a big following, but I'm still really shit scared. That makes you even more human and relatable. And people will connect to what your words mean even more, I think.

• 13:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think so. And the whole point at writing the poems that I write and doing what I've done was to unmask, to get out of that place of perfectionism that I was living in, where you never admit that you're struggling and you always look like you have it all together. So there was no point in me trying to do that whilst I was trying to recite poetry that was saying the opposite to that, you know. I've only got one choice now that I've unraveled, as I call it. And that is to be exactly who I am. I can't do it any other way. I can't pick up the mask occasionally and put it back on for an hour. It would be nice, but it's gone now. So I have to just be really brave and

• 14:05Speaker 02

  own it and say, you know, I really love this. I want to be here. I want to do it. And in about 10 minutes, it's gonna be fine.

• 14:12Fearne Cotton?

  Exactly. Cause you do it, it dissipates.

• 14:15Speaker 02

  But for now, it's a bit dodgy.

• 14:16Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, and that's fine. I love stories about people's trajectory when it's come a little bit later in life. I think we all know the stories of people that have had this vision from a very young age and they've worked and worked and worked and they've got to this point in their twenties or teens where it's all started to kick off. You seemingly had this big pivot in your 40s where, I'm imagining it comes from mindset. It's not like you've got some sort of magic spell that you cast and all of a sudden you've got this huge following.

• 14:46Speaker 02

  I have.

• 14:47Fearne Cotton?

  Or have you, maybe you can, you can let us know, Donna. But it seems like something shifted in you in your 40s that catalyzed all of this.

• 14:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 14:56Fearne Cotton?

  Is that true? And if so, what was it?

• 14:59Speaker 02

  I had had enough.

• 15:00Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 15:01Speaker 02

  I just kept thinking every day, I can't keep doing this. I can't keep running this fast. I felt like the sort of lifestyle that we were living, my kids were a bit younger, they were at really good schools, but those schools went really fast and hard. Like you have to do better, you have to do more, you have to do sports, you have to do this. Weekends are homework and weekends are more sports and everybody was sort of moving at such a pace.

• 15:28Fearne Cotton?

  And stressed.

• 15:29Speaker 02

  And stressed.

• 15:29Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 15:30Speaker 02

  And I just thought, I've got a feeling nobody likes this. And maybe if I stop and say, anybody else think that this is all just a bit of a joke and we can all just chill out and and be a bit, you know, flawed? And have a laugh about it and be really happy and we could maybe help one another. That if I did that, maybe people would go, me, me, me. And so, I mean, it was anonymous at first. I had a page. I sort of hid behind the name of the page, which was ladiespassitonth.com. And I thought we would kind of pass things on that helped one another. And it wasn't until sort of the first poem or two maybe went viral, that I I went, okay, this is me, this is my name.

• 16:12Speaker 02

  And this is my face. That's another really scary bit. What are you all going to say about my face? You're going to say horrible things. Um, and I just had enough and I just thought there's more than this. And I think we could have better conversations about everything, about depression. I realised I'd been depressed many times in my life and I'd never admitted it. I'd always gone, oh, I'm I'm highly sensitive. I maybe get a bit down. I'm quite difficult. But no, I had been depressed. You know, I struggled for a long time with eating disorders and I got myself out of those eating disorders using affirmations and Reiki and going down the whole reprogramming your thoughts. So I lived on Louise Hay for decades.

• 16:57Fearne Cotton?

  Obsessed with Louise Hay. I still heard about How to Heal Your Body. I I have.

• 17:00Speaker 02

  Healed my body.

• 17:01Fearne Cotton?

  I have it. I've got two copies of it.

• 17:03Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 17:03Fearne Cotton?

  One by my bed, one in my little office. I go to it constantly.

• 17:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, I carried. That everywhere with me, age eighteen, I mean, who was doing that? And I did a Reiki course for my, uh, I think it was my seventeenth birthday. Because I was trying to eradicate myself off the face of the earth because I was such a perfectionist. Such, uh, you know, had to have all the grades, had to have everything perfect. That, you know, the minute I realised that you could control your eating. And that would make you feel really powerful and that, that, that was my downfall. So Louise Hay helped me unpick all of that and, and find a much healthier, calmer way. And so somewhere within me, that was all dying to come back out. It had kind of been squashed down again by life.

• 17:50Speaker 02

  And being a new mum and, you know, everything just coming at you. My husband and I ran a, a business, a children's play centre. Which was seven days a week. So there was never a day where it was shut except for Christmas Day. And New Year's Day. And we thought, this'll be fun. We can bring our kids to work. Cause I used to work in magazines and he was in TV. And we thought this'll be a really chill, uh, nice way of life. I mean, why would you think that a ball pool would be chill?

• 18:17Fearne Cotton?

  They're the worst place ever, quite frankly.

• 18:20Speaker 02

  I mean, I have, I have noise. I have sensory issues. So the noise in itself was.

• 18:24Fearne Cotton?

  Too much.

• 18:25Speaker 02

  Um, but I was definitely just looking for deeper conversations with people. And I thought, you know what, maybe I'll start it in a really dramatic way.

• 18:35Fearne Cotton?

  But why poetry as well? Cause you know, you could have expressed yourself in.

• 18:38Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 18:39Fearne Cotton?

  Plethora of ways, whether it was just expressive writing.

• 18:41Speaker 02

  Expressive dance.

• 18:42Fearne Cotton?

  Or dance, or just, you know, creating a website where you're chatting to people. There's forums. But poetry is so specific. Why that? Is it something you'd always leant on personally just for fun?

• 18:55Speaker 02

  I think there's always somebody in a friendship group that writes poems even for fun, you know, like, oh, can you, is that you?

• 19:01Fearne Cotton?

  I'm obsessed with poetry.

• 19:02Speaker 02

  So, yeah, so there you go then. And I was that person. So as a teenager, I wrote poems in my diary.

• 19:09Fearne Cotton?

  About the boys everyone fancied. Yeah, fun.

• 19:11Speaker 02

  Heartache, you know, the, the desperation of teenage angst and heartache.

• 19:16Speaker 02

  And then I became a songwriter. So I was a singer at the time and I started to write songs. So the lyrics, the beauty of a few words, I mean, I listen to other people's music and it's the lyrics for me. If they're with the right music and they're done in that way, magic is made. It's the best. But the lyrics are so important and I've always been obsessed with the power of words, the right words in the right order, at the right time, just when you need it. If someone passes it to you or you hear it, it's healing. It's like affirmations, you know, it's like all of that. They can do so much. So I didn't intend to do it. I didn't

• 19:56Speaker 02

  at any point go, I write poems now, that's what I do. I would write little paragraphs and then I would write quotes and then I would maybe just, you know, write about my day and then the poetry came. And so much so, it was so organic that I don't even know how it happened. It just unfurled.

• 20:17Speaker 06

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• 20:25Speaker 04

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• 20:30Speaker 03

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• 22:04Fearne Cotton?

  This is all taking place during lockdown, that you started putting these poems out for the first time. I mean, there's lots I want to unpick within this story, but one of the scary things is, and I know, like you've just said, you were releasing them anonymously at first, it's one thing to write poetry, it's another to share it.

• 22:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 22:22Fearne Cotton?

  I don't think I've ever shared any of my poetry. It feels so deeply personal.

• 22:27Speaker 02

  You know, we have to do that now.

• 22:28Fearne Cotton?

  And exposing, that I don't know how I'd feel. And I had it with my paintings at first. I used to paint very privately. And now occasionally I'll put portraits that I've done online and, you know, I'm less bothered about whether people think they're good, bad, or they don't get it, whatever. But it is, with anything creative, there is a scary threshold you have to cross to say, and here I am laying myself bare to the world with my poetry.

• 22:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 22:54Fearne Cotton?

  How did you get the courage to do that?

• 22:56Speaker 02

  Like this?

• 22:59Speaker 02

  You've got to go through the cringe. There's no way around it.

• 23:02Fearne Cotton?

  No.

• 23:02Speaker 02

  You have to cross the cringe. And whatever it is you're doing, if it's painting or poetry or writing, the first few times are going to feel absolutely hideously awful, like those dreams where you go out the house and you're naked and you can't get back in and you've not got a phone. But something inside you tells you that what's on the other side of the cringe is really worth crossing over too. So the only way to do it is to do it and go through that.

• 23:34Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 23:35Speaker 02

  And not compare. Hair, not over edit, you know, not look at your work and say, who's gonna like it? Just put it out there and trust that the people who need that. And when it comes to art, it's needed, it's not just wanted, it's needed, they will find it. And I almost put the pressure on the work to take it off of me. So I tell my little poem, right, off you go. Fly away and find whoever you need. And then if it doesn't, it's not my fault. If a poem didn't do it.

• 24:07Speaker 02

  And then you've got to kind of let go of them. So once they leave you, they're no longer of you, they're from you. And they belong to other people now and they will share them and do what they need to do with them. And they will become a part of their lives and they do. Whatever it is that you're doing, you know, the work becomes a part of other people's story.

• 24:27Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, I mean, and my god, did people share them. I mean, when did you? What, which poem went viral first and how did that feel? Because that is, if you're, you know, in Scotland, releasing these poems anonymously, not really thinking much of it. And then all of a sudden you're getting thousands of people following. I mean, you've got half a million followers on Instagram or something now. And some of your poems have just travelled so far and been shared with so many people. And like you say, are owned by those people. They have a different bespoke meaning to every reader. And they're, they might be put in birthday cards, all these little special ways that they've been shared with people. But what, what did that feel like? The first one going viral and thinking, what the fuck is happening here?

• 25:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's what it felt like.

• 25:11Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, that's great.

• 25:13Speaker 02

  It was crazy. And it's one of those things, I remember watching the numbers go and the, and the numbers were tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, ticking. And most of it was on Facebook for me. So I was actually in Manchester when I first started in the lockdown. We moved after the first lockdown. And I just remember watching the numbers tick, tick, tick, changing, like they, they were never static. And I've actually got one and a half million followers on Facebook now, which is completely insane. Instagram was a bit more difficult for me because I'm a bit older. I felt like it took me a wee while, you know, getting to the cool, cooler grids. But it felt like something I was watching rather than something I was part of. And still to this day, I feel like I am part of it.

• 25:58Speaker 02

  I don't see it as me, or, you know, if people say, how, how, how do you feel? I, I always say, watching the words do their thing. Cause I've long believed that we could use poetry every day, not just for funerals, not just for weddings, or for really clever people who are really good at, you know, dissecting complicated prose, but for every day, like Louise Hay.

• 26:21Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 26:22Speaker 02

  And we could open it up randomly and get a little message that we need. And even if there's nothing going on in your day, there are a million things going on in your brain, in your mind, in your body, in your soul, and you need comfort, you need direction, but most of all, you just need that feeling that somebody else felt like this too, one day, yesterday, today, maybe thousands of people are feeling like this. So I had long believed that poetry, or whatever you want to call it, um, had that power and could work really well on social media because we're all moving so quickly through our feeds. These little chunks, you take one look at them, you know it's a poem because you, the way it's laid out, your brain goes, I'm gonna get a nice message here.

• 27:06Speaker 02

  So it cuts through like ten layers of small talk and you're straight into deeper territory.

• 27:12Fearne Cotton?

  Soul talk.

• 27:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, the poetry gets straight in.

• 27:15Fearne Cotton?

  Hmm.

• 27:15Speaker 02

  And gets to topics that you would never be able to engineer your way down to in most conversations. So it has been like watching a giant poetry snowball. And lots of other poets have joined that snowball since then as well. And it's getting bigger, the, the figures are crazy. Poetry sold more last year than ever since time began.

• 27:37Fearne Cotton?

  Really?

• 27:38Speaker 02

  Yeah. So, and the same the year before, and the same the year before.

• 27:42Fearne Cotton?

  Isn't that interesting? That must, that must have some sort of direct correlation to the opposite, which is that very quickly imbibed TikTok algorithm of I'm watching something for four seconds and I'm bored and what's the next thing? And we want to counter it with something that you, like, you say you need to take more time to digest it and it has to have, there's meaning behind it and you need to sit with it. I think. There's not ever a situation where just one thing exists, we have to have the counter. And maybe that's what, I mean, we're maybe understanding the need for it more than ever. Because we're so tired from being bombarded with all this quick information. I mean, you, the book that I've got on my lap here, To The Women, you originally self-published this

• 28:25Fearne Cotton?

  around this time when your poetry was really kicking off. But you're republishing it now with added work in there, which is really exciting.

• 28:33Speaker 02

  Seventy new poems.

• 28:34Fearne Cotton?

  Seventy new ones.

• 28:34Speaker 02

  Which is more than there was in the original book. It was a very small book. So it's more than half again. But I kept the original content because, even though I cringed when, when I read some of it.

• 28:44Fearne Cotton?

  Why?

• 28:44Speaker 02

  Well, because it's an old version of you. We all do it. We look back at photos, work that we did. Facebook statuses from two years ago are enough to make you go, who was that?

• 28:55Fearne Cotton?

  Quite, quite.

• 28:57Speaker 02

  But we must honour these past versions of ourselves because they were who they were so that you could be who you are today. And you've really got to make peace with them and accept them and say, you know, I'm never going to agree with your outfit or your hairstyle. But look at you trying your best, bless, and you know, we're here now.

• 29:15Fearne Cotton?

  And also us in 20 years might be cringing at us right now. So let's just be forgiving, I would say.

• 29:20Speaker 02

  I'm sure. So I kept the original content exactly as it was. And then I thought, I need to add the last four years. Because I wrote that book to bring women together. And the minute it went out, more women came into my life than I could ever have even imagined possible. So therefore there had to be a lot more stuff to be said. So it's been, it's like a bit of a full circle. This is my 10th book now. And it's also the first book. So there's a real feeling of coming back to what happened and thanking everybody like you. Who shared for no reason other than you said, that's lovely. I'm going to share that.

• 30:00Fearne Cotton?

  Well, like many other people out there, I got gifted.

• 30:03Speaker 02

  Sarah gave it to you.

• 30:04Fearne Cotton?

  My friend Sarah gave, I think she got me three of your books or something like she, there was a bundle of books and our lovely, dear friend Sarah Kaywood, who's just, or Sarah Mary now, just an absolute legend and. And I kept picking it up, it was in my little office at home and I would read a poem, put it back and it would just give me a little boost in the day.

• 30:22Speaker 02

  Tiny little bits.

• 30:23Fearne Cotton?

  Tiny little boost, just so gorgeous. And this book is so special. I mean, I've, I've pulled out a few poems that I not only love, but I'm interested to know more about. And one of them is Just Begin, which is a poem that talks about the difference between trusting the process and just waiting. Now, this is, I think, very interesting. We, I mean, if you look at just the landscape of wellbeing, the word manifest is thrown about a lot. We very recently recorded, I don't know when it will go out, before or after this episode, but we did a podcast on manifesting. And my often confusion with it, does it work? Is it a thing? Is it just for special people who can do it? You know, how does it work?

• 31:08Fearne Cotton?

  And I think what you've done with this poem is sort of go beneath all the bullshit and go, right, what's trusting the process and what is just waiting hopelessly that something's going to happen without action? What has that relationship been like in your own life with, with knowing when to really push something or when to sit back and just trust life?

• 31:28Speaker 02

  I mean, I'm obsessed with the science behind the way that we think and happiness and all of these things. So I read a lot of, you know, evidence-based self-help books, I suppose, as they were, that talks about how your brain responds to what you're telling it every single day. If you are in the place of doing, you're in action. So it's all very well to sort of sit there and say, I want, I want, I want, I really want this to happen. I hope this happens and visualizing and manifesting. But you've got to be actively doing something. Now, there are tiny, tiny steps and I'm a huge believer in everything in tiny steps is the way to make change that lasts or do things that, you know, really

• 32:12Speaker 02

  work. So you could be doing the tiniest little thing towards what it is that you're hoping for. I mean, it could be anything. It could be, you know, just putting a nice new pen next to a nice new book that you're going to write in later. You don't even write in it, but you've put the pen there. You know, no matter how overwhelmed you are, there's always something you can be doing towards what it is that you want to be receiving.

• 32:34Fearne Cotton?

  You've got to do something.

• 32:35Speaker 02

  You've got to signal. Life, the universe, whatever it is that you believe in, the motion of energy that I'm ready, let's go.

• 32:44Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 32:44Speaker 02

  And the only way to do that is to stand up and say, I'm ready, let's go, I'm doing something.

• 32:48Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, so it's actually a lovely little combination of

• 32:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 32:51Fearne Cotton?

  the doing bit.

• 32:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 32:52Fearne Cotton?

  But you've got to trust as well.

• 32:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 32:54Fearne Cotton?

  Because I think if you're doing, but you're going, oh, this probably won't work, this is gonna go to shit.

• 32:58Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 32:59Fearne Cotton?

  Then that's not helpful either.

• 33:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 33:00Fearne Cotton?

  And I guess also with, if you know that you're not happy. This also applies that you have to do something differently. You've got to apply change to a situation if you want to feel differently. And I think we've all been stuck in a rut at points in our life where we've thought, but why am I still in this situation? Or why do I still feel like this? But we're not actively doing anything differently, but we're expecting change to sort of turn up for us.

• 33:26Speaker 02

  And we, and we get trapped in that. We often get so trapped in that. And the problem about being trapped in things is you can't see it because you're inside it. And if you're in the habit of coming out of what it is that you feel you're inside, or coming out of your own life, your own thoughts, and standing outside of it and looking back in, it's a really clever thing to do. Perspective, you don't see when you're in. You have to get outside of it to look back in to see. That's why when you go on a big walk, literally up a hill or, you know, away, or when you go on holiday, you sometimes get a better look at your life and your problems because you're out of it, you're far away, you're out of your routine.

• 34:05Speaker 02

  And your routine can be a cage sometimes, as well as comforting, you know, comfort zones, for example. You build your comfort zones when you're in a really bad place and they're important, you need them. But you've got to get out it, but you can come back to it. People who say life exists outside your comfort zones, I agree with that to an extent. But you need somewhere to come back to.

• 34:27Fearne Cotton?

  I agree.

• 34:28Speaker 02

  To regenerate when you've done the big thing, you know, and you built that, you did that, look how cozy it is. Get back in it, but always come back out and have a look around and check that you're not imprisoning yourself in there.

• 34:41Fearne Cotton?

  Mm.

• 34:41Speaker 02

  That you're free.

• 34:42Fearne Cotton?

  I've definitely had. Years where I've felt really not great. And my routine has been regimented to the nth degree. Like everything, I have to go to bed at a certain time, I have to do this before I go to bed and then I have to wake up at a certain time. Because you feel so out of control, you're trying to create some sort of safety, like a route, a map to sort of just get through the day. And actually, the times when I can see that I felt, it's not even about happiness maybe, it's about fully engaged with life and very aware of the life going on around me and that I'm in it. That kind of goes out the window a bit in the best possible way. And I'm not so obsessive about timings and how everything's got to be so that I can feel okay. Because it doesn't, doesn't work like that anyway.

• 35:26Speaker 02

  No, there is a flow. It doesn't matter who you are or what you believe in, there is a flow that you have to let go to a little. And these regimented routines that we give ourselves, they're not allowing us to do enough living in between all of the doing. You know, and it's, and somebody who doesn't aim for happiness. I'm looking for peace because I live in a very chaotic mind. I always have. So all of my poetry is seeking calm, peace. You know, a better understanding of why feelings come and believing that they're going to go again. Knowing that you don't have to hold on to them or believe that this is me now, I'm a very sad person, I'm never going to feel light again.

• 36:09Speaker 02

  You know, it all comes and it all goes and it can do that a hundred times a day. So happiness for me is like sadness, it comes in, it comes out. You've got to honour it when it's here and go for it. You know, these little moments where you think, why am I feeling happy? It's Monday.

• 36:22Fearne Cotton?

  Lean in, lean into that.

• 36:24Speaker 02

  Jump in, get it done.

• 36:26Fearne Cotton?

  And I guess poetry actively helps you remember that everything comes and goes. Because when you're writing something down, it doesn't have to be poetry, it could be just you writing a bit of a diary entry. Or just you wanna, you're really fucking angry about something, you need to write it down. The notion of getting it on a page, it does get it out of you to a degree. Maybe not entirely that you're rid of all the feelings, but it doesn't exclusively live within you. There is some sort of purging with, with writing, I think.

• 36:54Speaker 02

  And I would urge anybody who has an overthinking brain or feels, you know, slightly chaotic sometimes.

• 37:01Fearne Cotton?

  All the time.

• 37:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, all the time. Um, we are twin flames in many ways to write. And I told you before we came in, I gave you the journal. So this journal that I I made last year, this was the purpose of it. So there's a question every day from me and the idea behind the question is so that you don't even have to think, what am I writing today? Somebody else is asking you it and what it does is it kickstarts your thoughts, looking at them a bit more selectively. Am I being really negative here? You know, am I wallowing in this thing that I could be letting go of now? Or am I stopping myself before I even begin? So journaling. And even that word itself can put fear into some people because we've no time.

• 37:45Speaker 02

  But you have got time. You feel like you're stealing time from yourself when you take 10 minutes to journal. But you're actually giving yourself about an hour and a half.

• 37:54Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 37:55Speaker 02

  Because you're saving yourself so much running around in chaos later. By just letting your thoughts formulate into a better order, letting the important stuff come to the front. And all the rubbish go to the back, maybe even, you know, out the back door. That's what writing does. It literally gets out and puts it down, like pulling a messy thread out of a brain. The threads.

• 38:19Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, that's just reminded me of set it down. Another term that I've jotted down that I love because that very much is about setting down heavy feelings. And I, I love that idea because sometimes we assume we have to carry around this heavy load of shit. Whether it's something that happened to us, or it's a regret, or they're just some big old heavy feelings that we've got. And we don't give ourselves permission to go, I'm just gonna pop that down. It could be for an hour.

• 38:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 38:47Fearne Cotton?

  Or it could be forever. But we don't give ourselves permission to do that. I wonder what you think the difference is between setting down heavy feelings and ignoring them completely unhealthily.

• 39:00Speaker 02

  Well, in order to know what you're setting down, you have to have processed it.

• 39:03Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 39:04Speaker 02

  So, you know, I, I would never tell people to like whack a smile on your face and just be happy. That's not positivity. To me, positivity is having a look at all the crap first. Sifting through it for what's real, what is going to stay with you, like grief. Or, you know, things that, that you actually will carry with you, but in a more healthy manner. And what is just a load of rubbish that you do not need. So if you're at the, the point of setting it down, you've, you've had a look at what it is that you're putting down. But I started this practice a couple of years ago where at the end of every month, I asked the month before to keep something for me that I didn't want to take forward. So I would say, right, June, whatever it may be, maybe I was having a body confidence issue.

• 39:49Speaker 02

  Let's just say, rose up again, you know, from the teenage years, which happens. Nothing is linear, everything loops, you go back and you go back and you go back. So I would say, you know, June, will you just keep this for me? I'm not going into July with it. It's a load of rubbish. It's holding me back. And saying it out loud or writing it down is such a powerful thing. You feel very silly. But it's almost like you're pinning it to the fabric of the universe and making it. So if I say this, I'm setting you down now and I'm walking away. I'm leaving you, I'm not coming back. No, I don't hear you and off I go. You have a laugh about it, but it's a really powerful thing to do.

• 40:29Speaker 02

  And to see things visually like that makes a difference for me. It works for my brain. You know, that gives me a feeling of, yeah, of course I can do this. I can, I can go into tomorrow, next week, whatever it is, and I don't have to take that with me.

• 40:44Fearne Cotton?

  No, we don't. We've got much more choice than we believe. I think sometimes, especially when it comes to self-esteem and negative beliefs we have about ourself. We're so used to that voice. It is so inherently there.

• 40:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 41:00Fearne Cotton?

  And it's got, it's made itself a little room and it's made itself all cosy in there. And you're just used to hearing that. You're a piece of shit.

• 41:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 41:07Fearne Cotton?

  You look like shit, whatever your, you know, story on repeat is.

• 41:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 41:11Fearne Cotton?

  And we forget we've got a choice to say, yeah, I'm not going to listen to that anymore, actually. You're just, you can stay in January. Thanks. I'm off to February.

• 41:19Speaker 02

  Bye.

• 41:20Fearne Cotton?

  It's very good.

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• 42:42Fearne Cotton?

  Grace to Slow is another one that I'd love to talk to you about. A poem where you talk about, well, many things, but one of them is just pace. And we live, as we all know, in the craziest of times where things are just phenomenally fast. And as you said earlier, you had a job where you felt you were caught in the rat race and it was all about chasing that and what's next and how do we keep this going? And you chose to step away from that. But it's really hard, even if it's not in terms of your lifestyle, for our brains to get used to slowing down and stopping and taking heed of what's just happened, having a little moment and a pause. None of us used to it. And also, we're actively encouraged to not do that. It's like, well, what are you going to do next? And what are you achieving next?

• 43:27Fearne Cotton?

  And what are you doing at the weekend? And what's going on in your evening? We're so rare. In the moment, do you think you've got better with that, maybe even through writing poetry?

• 43:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, completely. I've changed so much in the last four years because I've been, because I've been writing this every day. And when I started writing it, I wasn't doing it. And, and to this day, I'll still say to people, I am not a perfect person. Floating about in serenity all the time. I write all of this poetry because that's what I'm actively asking for. So in order to get it, I have to work at it and I have to put it out there and I have to, to dream it and be it and, you know, and do it. So I'm constantly trying to be more peaceful and more present and less, you know, less bothered by what everybody else is doing and who's chasing what, you know, careful

• 44:22Speaker 02

  what race you've got yourself in because what is the prize to be more stressed than the person behind you? Because that's really what's happening. And it's made a huge difference in my life. And again, with the journaling group, we're sort of three weeks into January. And watching everybody, because they've had this question every day and they've started questioning their pace, their inner critics, you know, all of these things. And being forced to sort of write good things about themselves and watch what happens to the reaction is fascinating. It's absolutely fascinating. And take away a few daily details. And women especially, we're all the same, you know. You can, you can take some layers away of what we do and where we live and, you know, all of those things.

• 45:06Speaker 02

  But really, we're all fundamentally the same and we all feel that pressure. You know, these, these badges of merit or busyness and stress, oh my God, how does she do it? Well, she doesn't do it. She probably comes home and, you know, has a scream every night like me. Thank God, I can't do it.

• 45:26Speaker 02

  And we're all doing it. And if we all just owned up to it, everybody would go, huh.

• 45:30Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 45:30Speaker 02

  I don't have to do that anymore.

• 45:31Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, because actually, this isn't a poem I'm quoting here. It's a line, it's from a poem, but it's a line that you've pulled out in the book, which says, when you embrace your flaws, someone watching finds their way.

• 45:42Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 45:43Fearne Cotton?

  Which is so brilliant, because I've certainly had that, where I've seen somebody openly admit to something that they are unhappy with in themselves, or a moment that they feel they fucked up, or whatever it might be. And not only does it give us all permission to go, okay, I can find a bit of peace with the fact that I'm completely flawed. We all are. We've all got things that we know we would like to either change, or that we know we've got a little weak spot over here, or whatever. And we don't need fixing. We don't need to create this perfect version of ourselves. It's becoming much more comfortable with those flaws, or things in the past that have happened to you that you feel deeply uncomfortable about. It's finding peace, rather than, I need to eradicate

• 46:26Fearne Cotton?

  that to become a pure person who never says anything bad, or ever has a bad thought, which is bollocks. And I think by people having openness and talking about that, other people can find not only a bit of mental peace, but also, I think, actively make decisions that suit them better, because they're less worried about what everyone else thinks, quite frankly. It's powerful.

• 46:51Speaker 02

  It's so powerful. The love lives in the sharing of the ugly truths. Because you can show everybody into your lovely home, or here's my new dress, and my lovely holiday. And that's great. We all enjoy that, and we share that, and it's fun. But if you let somebody in to your ugly, your moment where you just weren't a great version of yourself, or, you know, underneath the beautiful exterior, and into something that is vulnerable, you've given them a gift. You've literally given them a gift. It's one of the nicest things that one human being can do for another. And you did it for a room full of us a couple of weeks ago, at the breakfast event that we were at, when you said, the question was-

• 47:35Speaker 02

  Um. How do you find balance today, today, today? And you went, well, I don't.

• 47:39Fearne Cotton?

  No.

• 47:39Speaker 02

  I chase it every day. Um. I never get it. Uh. You know, it's like the Road Runner. We're all chasing balance.

• 47:45Fearne Cotton?

  Of course.

• 47:46Speaker 02

  We'll probably never catch it, but every day we try. And we're all trying to be better people, kinder people, nicer to ourselves, better parents. Do a bit of good work, you know, make a bit of difference in the world. And, you know, we're all trying so hard to be good people. And if you stop and look at it, the fact that we're all trying to be good is such a wonderful thing. When there are people out there who just actively do terrible things, you know. Uh. Most people are constantly trying to be better. And that's a beautiful thing. And being honest with the bits of you that aren't better. That you might not even keep trying to make better because you've just gone, actually, this is me.

• 48:29Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 48:30Speaker 02

  It's, I mean, I, I'm neurodiverse, so my son was diagnosed at the start of lockdown. Along with lockdown and, you know, our world turned upside down. We had no clue what was coming. It was like somebody threw a hand grenade into our lounge and then ran away. And we were like, what now? And I sort of deep dived on his behalf to find out more about what autism means, what ADHD means. He's, he's both. And in doing that, I uncovered myself. And with each page that I turned, I was like, oh. So of course I went and got my diagnosis. And the, the sort of realisation that you're not faulty.

• 49:12Speaker 02

  You perceive the world differently. And actually, this world is crazy. You're not meant to be able to handle all the noise, all the sounds, all the lights, all the change. You know, we were never meant to live like this, Fern. We were meant to be in tiny little villages, you know. Hearing the bad news from the neighbouring village, not the entire world. You need to, like you say, you need to counter that with enough good news, with enough good thoughts or thoughts that can at least help you change your worst thoughts. I can't even remember how I started on this and what the question. Was.

• 49:46Fearne Cotton?

  Doesn't even matter.

• 49:47Speaker 02

  Completely lost.

• 49:48Fearne Cotton?

  Because what you're saying is great.

• 49:50Speaker 02

  But yes, you gave us all permission to do that that day by saying, I don't have balance.

• 49:55Fearne Cotton?

  I mean, I honestly don't have a clue.

• 49:57Speaker 02

  We all went.

• 49:58Fearne Cotton?

  No, I don't have a clue what I'm doing.

• 49:59Speaker 02

  Sarah doesn't have balance.

• 50:00Fearne Cotton?

  Well, no, I think I feel deeply uncomfortable a lot of the time with, you know, I love doing talks, I love doing panel talks, I do a hell of a lot of them. But I would never want to be framed as this person who does wellness and I'm doing it really well and my life's really perfect. It's like, people assume that I'm sort of like constantly meditating, whatever. No, not.

• 50:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 50:21Fearne Cotton?

  I'm rushing around trying to find kids' school uniform that I've put in the washing machine and I forgot to dry on the morning they need it. And my kids are on screens and I'm going out of my mind and I've got 50 emails in my inbox. At the end of the day, I'm also trying to run a business as well as being a mum. So no, I'm not meditating every day. I know all of this stuff works and I like dipping in and out of certain things that work for me. But realistically, in this world we live in, I am floundering around.

• 50:50Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 50:50Fearne Cotton?

  Working out how to get to the end of the day so I can crawl into bed. Like, I don't want to ever be seen as anything other than a deeply flawed human.

• 50:58Speaker 02

  Same.

• 50:59Fearne Cotton?

  Like, there is, there is no other version of me.

• 51:01Speaker 02

  There's such joy in that.

• 51:03Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 51:03Speaker 02

  Isn't there such joy and relief?

• 51:05Fearne Cotton?

  Relief.

• 51:05Speaker 02

  Oh my goodness, everybody chill out, we're all bad at each other.

• 51:09Fearne Cotton?

  We're all.

• 51:10Speaker 02

  And if anybody says that they're not, they're lying to themselves.

• 51:13Fearne Cotton?

  Of course.

• 51:14Speaker 02

  And they're gonna have to look at that at some point.

• 51:17Fearne Cotton?

  Yep.

• 51:17Speaker 02

  Because nobody's doing it. It's not possible. Nobody can do it all, have it all and enjoy it all and never worry.

• 51:23Fearne Cotton?

  No.

• 51:23Speaker 02

  That's just not a thing.

• 51:24Fearne Cotton?

  It's absolutely bollocks.

• 51:25Speaker 02

  So, yeah, I really, I set out from the very beginning to go, you know, I am deeply flawed. How lucky am I to be able to be flawed and be here and see that? And want to try and be a wee bit better because it's not so you're trying to be better so people will perceive you better. You're trying to be better for yourself, for your life, for your kids, for the people who love you. So that, you know, their experience of you is a bit better. Um, and some days I really achieved that and other days, you know, like last week, I had to run up to my bedroom. And roar like a banshee and beat my pillows because I was so frustrated by something small.

• 52:06Speaker 02

  Um, and I just finished and kind of just flicked my hair and went, oh, back to being.

• 52:12Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, you've got to get it out of you physically though. Get a pillow, beat the shit out of it.

• 52:17Speaker 02

  And a roar like a banshee. I really recommend it.

• 52:20Fearne Cotton?

  I would love you to read a poem for us out of your book to the women. I don't know which one you'd feel is right for today.

• 52:29Speaker 02

  I am going to. Now I had a thought on the way in. Hold Tight is called.

• 52:34Fearne Cotton?

  Okay.

• 52:35Speaker 02

  It's called Hold Tight, so now I just need to find it. This is one I regret putting too many.

• 52:42Fearne Cotton?

  You've written too many poems there, Donna, haven't you?

• 52:45Speaker 02

  Let's just see. I know. Well, when I was in the audio booth earlier, recording them all, I thought, why have I done so many?

• 52:50Fearne Cotton?

  Why don't I just do five and call it quits?

• 52:52Speaker 02

  It would have been, it would have been fine if there was only a hundred. Here we go. I found it.

• 52:57Fearne Cotton?

  Right. Donna, over to you.

• 52:59Speaker 02

  This is called Hold Tight. I'm not going to read directly to your face because I know that can be quite uncomfortable. Yeah, they're creepy. Okay, hold tight. In those moments when darkness is unbroken by light, hold tight to your core. To the belief that there is more, that light will return and soon. It will crack through the curtains and fill this very room. Stay afloat by holding yourself like a safety rope. Until someone else can hold you too, the safest place in this world must be you. Hear the truth, not the voices who tell you you're useless and used.

• 53:42Speaker 02

  You're just bruised and bruises heal. Hunker down and feel. This is simply passing through in the way all feelings do. Hold tight to you.

• 53:56Fearne Cotton?

  That is so gorgeous. And I think all of us need to not only hear that, but really know it and believe it. Because we so often ditch ourselves, abandon ourselves, rely too heavily on exterior things to make us feel better and good. And actually, at the end of the day, we've just got ourselves and we've got to love ourselves and have compassion and hold ourselves tightly.

• 54:23Speaker 02

  At least, at least just be nice to yourself.

• 54:26Fearne Cotton?

  Just be nice to yourself.

• 54:26Speaker 02

  You know, you know, things can go wrong and you can get things really wrong, but if you've got your own back, if you're not ready to pounce and go, I knew it, I knew you would do this, you can just be like, oh, sorry, but like you would for a friend. You know, it's that simple. You don't have to love yourself, that can be a mountain for a lot of people, but you do have to like yourself or at least be nice.

• 54:47Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 54:47Speaker 02

  Just be nice.

• 54:48Fearne Cotton?

  Exactly. Oh, it's beautiful. I love that poem. I'd love to end the chat by knowing where your happy place is. It doesn't have to be a tangible space, but what is your happy place?

• 54:59Speaker 02

  Oh, it's my bedroom. I'm really rock and roll and, you know, interesting human. I just love that feeling when it's, the day is done, all things are done, you know, you've got everything off your little list that you needed to do and all you have to do now is chill out in your lovely space with, I've got a new kitten, so, you know, I've got two cats now and two dogs and two kids who sometimes come for a cuddle, but not quite, they're 12 and 16 now, so occasionally I get a cuddle. So it's that feeling of, yeah, it's just me now and just the people that I love and just, you know, the safety of the space that you've got is important. So that's my happy place. And I also love the Happy Place Festival.

• 55:44Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 55:45Speaker 02

  That's genuinely a happy place.

• 55:47Fearne Cotton?

  It is.

• 55:48Speaker 02

  It recharges you, like you're plugged in.

• 55:50Fearne Cotton?

  Because of all the people there, otherwise it's just a field.

• 55:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, you just put out a call for all the wonderful people in the whole of the country to come together. And it's like, boom, this energy.

• 56:01Fearne Cotton?

  Lovely, isn't it?

• 56:02Speaker 02

  It's wonderful.

• 56:02Fearne Cotton?

  It's gorgeous. Well, you're invited every bloody year.

• 56:04Speaker 02

  Yay.

• 56:04Fearne Cotton?

  Donna, what a joy to have you on Happy Place. Thank you for reading some of your beautiful poetry and good luck with more people discovering your beautiful work.

• 56:13Speaker 02

  And thank you for shining your lovely light on me today. I'm really grateful.

• 56:19Fearne Cotton?

  Oh Donna, I love Donna. Donna is so wonderful. I could talk to Donna all day. And she's really inspired me. I'm going to get home and I'm going to write some poetry. I might even share it, maybe. Still a bit scared about that. But if you love writing poetry, I hope that chat has also really kick-started you maybe thinking of something to write about today, or braving showing your poetry to just even a friend. It's a really special thing. To the Women is out on the 13th of Feb and I highly recommend you buy yourself a copy. It's beautiful. Or even better, gift it to one of the best women in your life. What a gift that is. By the way, I mentioned that I've recorded an episode about manifesting that will be with you very soon. So keep an eye on your podcast feed because I think it's going to be a special one.

• 57:04Fearne Cotton?

  Another thing we mentioned was of course the Happy Place Festival. Oh yeah, it's back. Lots of exciting news about this summer's festivals coming your way very shortly. So make sure you're following at Happy Place Official and me, at Fern Cotton, on Instagram. If you want to come along and join us this year, you really should because they are the most beautiful weekends and I know you will love it. If you've not been before, come along, try something new. Right, a massive thanks again to Donna, to the producer Anushka Tate at Happy Place Studios, and to you, you're doing bloody brilliantly.

• 58:07Speaker 04

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• 59:26Speaker 06

  And after taking a shower, I used some spray deodorant that belonged to his mother from the cupboard. He took a big sniff of me and says, "Mmm, smells like sex." Cast your personal question? Yes. Do your balls ever just float back up? What? Burnt me playing Millwall the way. I got home, my brother's coming down and I'll be in Millwall. Yeah, I can't go. I'm going to a matinee of Pride of the Musical.

• 59:51Speaker 06

  Listen and watch wherever you get your podcasts.