Alan Jones | The evidence his defence team tried to exclude

Prosecutors have won a battle to include evidence at trial that alleges Alan Jones had a tendency for taking a sexual interest in younger men. Sydney court reporter Isobel Roe is covering the case for the pod and tells Stocky what this evidence includes, and what the key complainants are alleging Alan Jones did to them. If you have any questions you'd like Isobel and Stocky to answer in future episodes, please email [email protected] mailto:[email protected]. The Case Of is the follow-up to the hit podcast Mushroom Case Daily, and all episodes of that show will remain available in the back catalogue of The Case Of.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

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• 0:44Stephen Stockwell?

  The lawyers have been briefed, the pre-trial has finished and in four days, Alan Jones, once an Australian cultural icon, is scheduled to front court to fight assault charges. I'm Stephen Stockwell and just a warning, this episode contains descriptions of alleged sexual assault. This is the case of Alan Jones. Veteran broadcaster Alan Jones has been a giant of the Australian media landscape. Some people said that he was more powerful than the Prime Minister. There was an 83-year-old male arrested this morning. Detectives from the Child Abuse Squad turned up at Alan Jones' luxury apartment down there at Circular Quay. Following allegations that he indecently assaulted multiple young men. I'm not going to dwell here on the allegations made about me, other than to say that I refute them entirely.

• 1:31Stephen Stockwell?

  On Monday, the trial of Alan Jones is set to begin. And for the last couple of weeks, lawyers on both sides of the indecent assault and sexual touching charges have argued about what should and shouldn't be allowed before the judge. In this episode, the decisions that were made in that pre-trial process and what it means for the trial for the man who was once a titan of Australian media. To break it all down is ABC Court reporter Isobel Rowe. Welcome back Isabel.

• 1:55Speaker 06

  Thank you.

• 1:56Stephen Stockwell?

  Alan Jones was such a huge figure in not just Sydney, but really in Australian media, which is kind of what makes this trial so interesting. What's the feeling as this starts to get closer?

• 2:09Speaker 06

  Well, I'm brimming with anticipation, Stocky, I don't know about you. Everyone I've spoken to about this case has been like, oh wow, you know, the Alan Jones trial, like that's going to be quite something. And I guess that is a reflection of how well he is known in Sydney. This was a guy that was on radio for 30 years and commercial radio. I think he won 226 radio surveys in a row. I mean, that's extraordinary, it's unheard of, it'll never be done again, I don't think. You know, gone are the days of everyone getting up and switching on the radio. And that was the biggest, you know, most important voice you heard that day. So for people to, you know, see that and have that picture in their mind as Alan Jones

• 2:51Speaker 06

  as this, you know, titan, I guess, of media and then to watch his, you know, his arrest, the charges, and then finally, we're almost here, a few days away from starting, pending any disasters in the pre-trial, a few days away from starting on Monday. Yeah, it's, it's pretty significant.

• 3:09Stephen Stockwell?

  Yeah, it's, it's really incredible, you know, thinking of the Alan Jones that I knew of growing up, you would never expect someone of his position who would hold, who held the power that he held to be in a, in a court in New South Wales in the way that he is. You know, he had politicians kind of almost needing to be on his show to be able to talk to the people that they could talk to, you know, this was pre-internet. He held, he was a gatekeeper to the Australian public. And so there was a need to deal with him and work with him, whether you kind of liked him or not. Isabel, in our last episode, we were talking about the charges that Alan Jones is facing in this trial. There's been a bit of movement from that, you know, basically as we were publishing the last episode, there'd been a change in what Alan Jones was charged with. Where did we end up?

• 3:53Speaker 06

  Yes, so we have ended up with a final set of charges, 22 all up. 20 assault with active indecency charges and two of sexual touching. And that relates to six complainants or six men all up. So that's down from, I think, 44 charges was the maximum at one point he was charged with. As we went through the last episode, you know, there's been a few changes. Things have been downgraded, things have been reshuffled, charges have been replaced. But we've ended up with the 22 charges and the six complainants all up who will end up giving evidence.

• 4:28Stephen Stockwell?

  Yeah, I was really interested in kind of how the charges had changed over that time, but also how that discussion involved, unfolded in, in court, Isabel. You know, the defence seemed a little bit frustrating that they were, they were changing so much throughout that. And I think maybe just a sign of some of the, the tension we may see in the courtroom as this trial gets underway and continues next week. Now, these pre-trial hearings, Isabel, ran over the last couple of weeks. We had basically, you know, kind of two and a bit weeks of, of hearings before the judge, who's actually going to be hearing this trial as well. A lot of discussion of what evidence will and won't be allowed throughout that process. Did it give us a clearer idea of what the case of Alan Jones is?

• 5:08Speaker 06

  Yeah, definitely. I mean, we weren't potentially expecting to get this much detail in the pre-trial, but we ended up getting it. Essentially what we heard is that the prosecution are going to try to paint Alan Jones as a person who had a sexual interest in younger men. And during that argument and some of the pre-trial argument, we heard in much more detail a lot of the allegations that will be put to Mr. Jones to defend. For example, we have complainant C, who is a man who made allegations that Alan Jones kissed and touched him several times, including in the lift at Mr. Jones' Macquarie Street apartment, the toaster, if you know it in Sydney.

• 5:50Speaker 06

  The court heard that the prosecution will allege that he put his hand over that man's crutch while he was driving Mr. Jones and then approached and kissed him in the apartment lift, that he told Alan Jones no, that on another occasion that he felt Alan Jones' hand on his upper thigh and crotch area at a lunch in Sydney. There are eight charges all up relating to complainant C. So of the complainants, complainant C has one of the highest level of charges, I guess, in relation to them. There are another set of charges relating to another man, complainant J, who the court heard was a young man when Mr. Jones first met him.

• 6:32Speaker 06

  Alan Jones allegedly gave him a mobile phone and asked him to come and visit him at his apartment. One of the times he did that, supposedly Alan Jones gave him a squeeze and a peck on the mouth, told him, I love you mate. And then other charges relate to other incidents over the years, you know, touching him allegedly on his genitalia, under his clothes while they were in a car. Another incident at Fitzroy Falls, which is the property that Alan Jones used to own in this, in the New South Wales Southern Highlands, it was like a second home, I guess. It's alleged while at the house, he committed other acts of indecent assault, including masturbating his own penis while touching the complainant and kissing him.

• 7:17Speaker 06

  It's alleged Alan Jones kissed another man, complainant I, so a third man on the corner of a mouth at a public event, and then texted him sort of something to the effect of, you know, I want to be kissing you all night long. There are more charges relating to another man touching his backside. And then the sixth man has alleged that Alan Jones sexually touched him without his consent, again on the backside at an event. So the charges are all quite similar when you sort of look at them as a group. They all, yeah, they're all relating to touching, sometimes in private, but sometimes in public as well.

• 7:56Stephen Stockwell?

  Yeah, I appreciate you kind of taking us through, you know, what, what the allegations are in this case. Because, you know, this being in kind of the lower court in New South Wales, it wasn't, it wasn't clear on how serious they were. But when you hear it in that kind of detail, you had a much clearer picture of what Alan Jones has been accused of, what he's facing here. I mean, Isabel, you're really careful when you're talking through the complainants in this case, that they've all got these kind of letters against their name. We're not going to be able to identify them at all throughout this trial, are we?

• 8:24Speaker 06

  No, we're not. That's, I guess, one of the most important things for us is that the media will probably know who these people are and we won't be able to identify them because that is the law, that a complainant, an alleged victim of sexual assault is not identified to the public. And so there are lots of bits of information about those charges that I just explained, which I can't tell you because if I were to tell you, you might be able to work out who that person is. And it's important that we don't do that because, you know, that's part of the job of covering a trial. So, yeah, there are, there are ways that we are going to have to explain what's happened to make sure that people don't ever, ever be able to identify who the complainants are.

• 9:07Stephen Stockwell?

  Yeah, yeah, it's interesting thinking about, you know, the legal risks that we're always working through and the, the kind of conditions that we work under to make sure we don't breach any of these, these rules and laws. And, you know, often when we're covering a trial, the thing we're most mindful of is not producing a jury. In this case, there is no jury, it is a judge only trial. So the thing I guess we'll be most mindful of throughout this process is kind of making sure that we're not giving away details that means people could identify who these complainants are basically throughout it. The thing I've found interesting throughout this pre-trial period, Isabel, is, you know, the argument was around, you know, as you're talking about, you know, this, this idea, the prosecution case, that Alan Jones had this kind of, you know, tendency to approach younger men and an interest in younger men, that's the allegation from the prosecution.

• 9:50Stephen Stockwell?

  And, you know, something I hear discussed a lot is this idea of what tendency evidence is. I mean, I have previously found tendency evidence really confusing actually because I'd wondered really what it meant. But I guess it kind of boils down to the fact that it just, you know, kind of talking to the fact of presenting evidence that shows that someone has a tendency to do something, right?

• 10:11Speaker 06

  Yeah, essentially a, a pattern of behaviour, whether someone has a tendency to act in a certain way. And so the prosecution in this pre-trial period have been arguing as to whether they're able to introduce tendency evidence, so evidence that points to a particular pattern of behaviour. Now, that evidence has been allowed and the judge made that decision. So in the argument, they said that they, you know, wanted to paint Alan Jones as someone who essentially had an interest in sexually touching men in social settings. And then the judge, Glenn Walsh, in his decision said that, you know, his reading of it was that the men were chronologically much younger than the defendant.

• 10:55Speaker 06

  Alan Jones had a tendency to touch young men on the buttocks, that he had a tendency to have a sexual interest in men particularly younger than himself, and a tendency to act upon that interest in social or professional context. And he said that not only is that evidence probative, but it has significant probative value. So he thinks it's important that it is allowed into the trial, and that, yeah, the conduct of the kissing and the touching has significant similarity. And he broke it down, in fact. He looked at the charges overall and he said, you know, there are 12 charges relating to kissing, there were four charges relating to touching over the clothes, about five

• 11:38Speaker 06

  charges relating to touching the skin of genitalia under the clothes. And so when you look at it like that, it's a pattern of behaviour in his view, and he's going to allow the prosecution to make that argument.

• 11:51Stephen Stockwell?

  Yep. Is the evidence that is going to be heard in the court relating solely to the complainants? Or is there a chance that we'll hear from other witnesses who are not part of these proceedings but are going to be giving evidence that, you know, kind of shows, goes to that tendency?

• 12:06Speaker 06

  It's a good question. I don't know the answer, but that is what tendency evidence is. It is evidence that would suggest, you know, that the defendant has a pattern of behaviour. So perhaps other witnesses will be asked, you know, questions about, you know, the sort of person they believe Alan Jones is.

• 12:23Stephen Stockwell?

  Yeah, gotcha. I found it really interesting as we were watching the, you know, the pre-trial elements unfold or the discussions unfold, there was a lot of kind of coming and going from the courtroom, you know, there'd be an argument that was made, the judge would need to go away and, you know, make his decision basically, and there were a few occasions where, you know, he did seem to be thinking quite deeply about this because he would go away, there'd be a, you know, a plan to come back and the court to resume at a certain point, and I think at least on one occasion he came back and was like, yeah, look, you're going to need to go away a bit more, for a bit longer, I need to do some more reading and kind of like just check on this really, make sure I'm making these decisions properly.

• 12:56Speaker 06

  Yeah, sometimes he'd come back for about 10 minutes and go away again. Basically, people, the prosecution, the defence would make an argument, they'd give him a whole bunch of written submissions, which is what happens in court, I mean, we hear probably a quarter of what really is being said because they get these wards of paper and they hand it over and, you know, the judge has to go away and absorb it all. And, you know, fair enough that they want to read everything properly and not just make a decision based on, you know, the bits of information that they hear from the lawyers in court. So, yeah, the trial sort of, or the pre-trial sort of would stop and start for hours at a time, so it's been a bit difficult to follow, but we are almost at the end.

• 13:36Stephen Stockwell?

  Almost there, that's excellent. And again, when we've got a, you know, trial with a jury, what we would have is the judge sitting in these pre-trial hearings, making a decision on what evidence the jury will be hearing in that situation. In this instance, it is the judge making a decision on what evidence he'll be allowed to consider during this trial, is that right?

• 13:54Speaker 06

  Yeah, I mean, it is kind of interesting in that tendency argument, you know, he was, he was saying, you know, I don't believe that I will use evidence in a prejudicial way, because there is no jury that he's worried about. He has to be convinced, I guess, of himself that he knows the law and he will consider evidence properly. I guess the other thing too is it's not just him considering the evidence, it is the public that will be hearing it via our reporting. So, you know, if evidence is allowed in a trial, it's evidence that is made public, it's evidence that, you know, the general public will eventually hear via people like us and via other media, so. But at the end of the day, as you say, the judge is the one who decides if something

• 14:38Speaker 06

  happened, if it didn't happen, whether or not the law is being followed. And, yeah, he's just got to not be prejudiced by the information that he decided he should allow in. So, yeah, it's a funny situation.

• 14:50Stephen Stockwell?

  It is, it is very strange. I do appreciate that it is a judge only trial because it is harder to prejudice a judge than a jury, so it makes our job slightly easier in that sense, but in the other ways that we've been talking about, slightly trickier in others. Isabel, the other big part of this pre-trial was a kind of threat from the defence that they wanted a delay in this trial, they wanted to stay in the proceedings, this trial is set to start next week, and, you know, this is a conversation being had over the last couple of weeks, to kind of push that back. Why did they want that?

• 15:18Speaker 06

  Yeah, well, look, it's been hanging over our heads in a way. The defence mentioned very early on that they were going to file this notice of motion for a stay, which is essentially delaying the trial, either because of concerns about some specific charges or concerns about the case overall. What it was in relation to was the way that evidence was collected from Alan Jones's home during the raid of his home, or I guess the search of his home when he was arrested. The defence has said several times throughout these proceedings that they had concerns about the way some mobile phones and other devices were collected from his house. They've said that they were concerned about the way it was seized and about the information that was on those phones.

• 16:02Speaker 06

  And there was this thing that sort of hung over everyone's heads throughout the trial. Are they going to file a stay? Are they going to make an argument as to why, because of this concern about evidence and the way it was collected, that the trial essentially, or some charges at least, should be delayed? Now, what was happening behind the scenes is that the defence and the prosecution were in discussions about the way the evidence was collected, the sorts of information that were on it. You know, by the time we go to trial, both the defence and the prosecution need to be 100% clear of what evidence is being introduced because that's the way a fair trial works. So they've obviously been able to go and work it out amongst themselves, because this

• 16:46Speaker 06

  week the defence popped up and said, actually, we won't be doing that, we're not going to pursue a stay, whatever our issues are, we'll work it out in the trial.

• 16:55Stephen Stockwell?

  Okay, that's good. Pre-trial is such a kind of interesting time, you know, we get this detail of the charges of the cases and kind of, you know, really minute arguments a lot of the time. Was there anything else that had stuck out to you throughout this process?

• 17:09Speaker 06

  Well, I guess the most interesting part for me has been what we thought we were going to be able to report, what we then couldn't report and what we can now report again. And that is because in between the time you and I last spoke, there was a non-publication order over the tendency arguments and any evidence given in that. Now, we've talked about tendency already and what that meant. It was in the arguments for, about tendency and coincidence where we heard all that allegation detail about each charge. Now, the defence applied to have a non-publication order over all of that, essentially, throughout the trial.

• 17:50Speaker 06

  So we wouldn't have been able to tell you any of the allegations in the pre-trial argument. And they argued that that was because witnesses might have read the media coverage. Judge Glenn Walsh was initially quite keen on the idea, I think, of having a non-publication order. He said, you know, what if I'm out getting my coffee and someone hands a newspaper to me and I see what I've said in court and all this pre-trial evidence all over the paper? He said, I'm not going to have this litigated in the media. He did say though, to the prosecution, well, what happened in the case of Chris Dawson? And the Chris Dawson, of course, many listeners might know, was convicted of murdering his wife, Lyn Dawson.

• 18:33Speaker 06

  The defence asked for a non-publication order in that case, and it was denied. And so they handed up that case and Judge Walsh went away and he came back the next day and he said, well, all right, actually, we'll deny a non-publication order. He said that there is no actual evidence, I guess, that Alan Jones wouldn't get a fair trial if some of this information is published now. He said, no material presented to him suggests that any media reporting to date has been fair, not been fair and accurate, so that's a win for us. He said that courts should proceed on the basis that reporting would be fair and accurate, and that the actual complainant's evidence, so their statements and that sort of thing, he has, he's not going to release that.

• 19:17Speaker 06

  And so all that we've been able to report on has been what has been said in the room in pre-trial. As I said, there was a time where we'd heard all of this, we weren't able to report it. But once he decided that that non-publication order would be lifted, it was all systems go and now we're able to talk about this ahead of the trial.

• 19:36Stephen Stockwell?

  Yeah, the pre-trial process, I think, has been interesting, also to give us a scale of this case as well. I mean, there's so much that happens in these things, but there's also so many documents that are being relied on and used and, you know, throughout this process, Isabel, we've really got a sense of, you know, kind of how much space this is taking up.

• 19:55Speaker 06

  Yeah, Judge Walsh actually said that the file for this case is taking up a whole room in the registry. Now, I don't know what this looks like, I'm not privy to what the registry looks like, but I'm picturing like a room with just piles and piles of paper everywhere, like some sort of scene out of Harry Potter. Um, I don't know why courts still work in physical paper. There are, there is technology for this. Um, someone else has invented it and other companies use it. But courts are, I guess, uh, uh, one of our oldest institutions. And they love, they love a piece of paper. So, um, yeah, I mean, not only the registry, but in the courtroom itself. Uh, there are piles of paper in the dock.

• 20:39Speaker 06

  Um, yeah, it's, it's a lot. You'll, you'll see when you, when you come to the trial, it's, um, there is, there's a lot of, of paper everywhere.

• 20:46Stephen Stockwell?

  Yeah, I'm looking forward to, uh, hanging out a bit next week, uh, as this trial gets underway. Also, you know, I feel for the legal associates, associates that have got to wheel this stuff around, you know.

• 20:54Speaker 06

  There's so many, yeah, everyone has to bring a suitcase and those trolleys with paper. It's just, guys, we have the tech. Anyway, it's, imagine putting an entire court system onto the cloud. That would be crazy.

• 21:08Stephen Stockwell?

  No, God, and I think, you know, I, I do have some sympathy for the, the risk of, you know, the sensitivities, documents, the, the need for them to be available at certain times. So I can understand there, there are barriers.

• 21:17Speaker 06

  True, and the security, I mean, if you can lock a room, is that safer than putting something with a password on a cloud? Maybe it is.

• 21:24Stephen Stockwell?

  Yeah, we'll find out, I'm sure, at some point, uh, in the near future, when this all gets underway. I mean, Isabel, I'll be, um, spending time with you next week as we're, we're covering this trial. Will Alan Jones be in the courtroom?

• 21:35Speaker 06

  Well, he certainly will for the start. Uh, it's been made a note of that he is 85 and that he's elderly and that we're doing a 10am start, um, because of the level of interest and the age of Alan Jones, which I think is meant to mean that, you know, it might take everyone, including him, a little while to sort of get themselves in their seats and ready. So, uh, the trial will start at 10am for the foreseeable future, according to the judge. There has been discussion in court about whether Alan Jones should be excused for some of it. It's going to be a long trial, you know, perhaps he doesn't need to be there every day. But that decision hasn't actually been made yet. Perhaps we'll hear that this week.

• 22:15Stephen Stockwell?

  I, I find it strange, you know, the judge saying that, you know, we'll start a bit later because Alan Jones is 85. All of the people I know in their eighties are up at about four o'clock in the morning. So, um, I'm sure he'll be up and about and, uh, you know, raring to go on Monday when this trial gets underway. Uh, Isabel, finally with the pre-trial over, is there anything that you have an eye out for throughout this trial? Something you're interested in or that you're, you're keen for a bit more detail on once this gets underway?

• 22:40Speaker 06

  Look, I, I, I think the parts I'm most interested in, unfortunately, we're not going to be able to tell you. Which is, you know, more, more detail about who knew what in these allegations, you know? Were there people who, uh, you know, saw these alleged acts happen and, and didn't say anything earlier? Um, you know, I guess that it's the, the people around Alan Jones, what they think about him, what sort of witnesses perhaps the defence will call, um, in defence of him and, and his personality. Um, some of that we may not be able to report because of, you know, the way it identifies, uh, certain people. But I hope that we find out more about, you know, what people around this man knew about him

• 23:23Speaker 06

  and what was happening in his life, uh, over this, you know, long period of time where these allegations are alleged to have happened.

• 23:30Stephen Stockwell?

  I'm sure we'll be having a, a lot of, uh, in-depth conversations with Jasmine Sims, our senior lawyer, as, uh, we're working through what we would like to be discussing on the pod and what we are legally able to discuss.

• 23:40Speaker 06

  Got it on speed, darling. Sorry, Jasmine.

• 23:42Stephen Stockwell?

  Yeah, no, she's, uh, she knows she's well-loved by the Case of team and she does incredible work. And, um, you know, I'll mention there'll be a robust conversation, uh, at some point over the next couple of months. Um, thank you so much, Isabel, for, for taking us through all of this, uh, over the last couple of weeks, uh, taking us through the pre-trial and yeah, looking forward to spending some time with you next week as we dive into the case of Alan Jones.

• 24:03Speaker 06

  Very exciting.

• 24:04Stephen Stockwell?

  We'll have our first episode in your feed on Tuesday next week for the case of Alan Jones. If you have any questions, please get in touch. We love hearing from you. I appreciated an email that we got the other day from, uh, Michael, who reminded me that someone who is, uh, interpreting in court is an interpreter. They're not a translator, that's someone who works with text. So there's much wonderful feedback that arrives at [email protected]. And as well as your feedback, we very much welcome your questions, uh, through the case of Alan Jones. I'm sure there is plenty you want to know about, uh, what is going to be unfolding in that room. So please get in touch and, uh, send us an email, [email protected]. Uh, the email has been getting a workout recently anyway, certainly with the case of the high-profile man.

• 24:46Stephen Stockwell?

  Uh, we had a lot of emails that, uh, came through about that, so I appreciate all of that. And, uh, make sure you hit the little heart in ABC Listen, uh, so you can follow the pod. It means that, uh, it'll be right there at the front of your app when you open it up. And if you are using a different podcast service, just, uh, subscribe there, follow us there and, uh, leave us a rating or review because it makes it much easier for other people to find us. And of course, you know, now is the time to put the case of Alan Jones in your, your group chats, tell your friends, because you can all start from the beginning, gives you something to talk about next week when you run out of other things to discuss. Catch up with your parents on the weekend and you feel like starting an argument, uh, you can tell us that we're talking through this and, uh, going about it. So they can, uh, join as well if they want to get involved.

• 25:33Stephen Stockwell?

  The case of Alan Jones is produced by ABC Audio Studios and ABC News. This episode was reported by Isabel Rowe and presented by me, Stephen Stockwell. Our supervising producer is Greg Muller and our executive producer is Claire Rawlinson. Thank you to senior lawyer Jasmine Sims, our legal queen for her legal advice, also to Anne Flavon for her help on Tuesday, to the Victorian and Sydney newsrooms and to audio studios manager, Eric George. This episode was produced on the land of the Gadigal and we're Unjuri people.