How To Make a Marriage Work | Chodo Robert Campbell and Koshin Paley Ellison (Co-Interviewed by Dr. Bianca Harris)

A candid, useful, and hilarious conversation. Chodo Robert Campbell Sensei https://www.instagram.com/chodorobertcampbell/ is a Zen teacher, bereavement specialist, grief counselor and a recognized leader for those suffering with the complexities of death & dying, aging, and sobriety. The educational non-profit he co-founded, the New York Zen Center for Contemplative Care https://www.googleadservices.com/pagead/aclk?sa=L&ai=DChcSEwjXm5iq9YCLAxWWKa0GHXwGHb4YABAAGgJwdg&ae=2&aspm=1&co=1&ase=5&gclid=Cj0KCQiAv628BhC2ARIsAIJIiK_Id7AWqCR2kH8PMqmxpuS-JQQUwmoeeHYmDwg7XSIVe8tqCvcqrjkaAvNTEALw_wcB&ohost=www.google.com&cid=CAESV-D2ydXzHQvmgmHrXY6njC8Xo5SckVqa2UxKVnqvHZAooIq9B_duJgZILkRjP3LOZaYafaWzJCcXhCgQla_o6uuLzuLL00Qb0tMBFhfrO4MeOH6JKLip0g&sig=AOD64_1dP7EmUyFphI-m8gLapZcR7rdCOw&q&adurl&ved=2ahUKEwiul4-q9YCLAxWRHzQIHWI6LOUQ0Qx6BAgGEAM, touches thousands of lives every year through its numerous educational programs, contemplative retreats, and Soto Zen Buddhist practices. Chodo has been featured in the New York Times, PBS, CBS Sunday Morning and other media outlets. Koshin Paley Ellison https://www.instagram.com/koshinpaleyellison/?hl=en is an author, Zen teacher, Jungian psychotherapist, leader in contemplative care, and co-founder of an educational non-profit called the New York Zen Center for Contemplative Care https://www.googleadservices.com/pagead/aclk?sa=L&ai=DChcSEwjXm5iq9YCLAxWWKa0GHXwGHb4YABAAGgJwdg&ae=2&aspm=1&co=1&ase=5&gclid=Cj0KCQiAv628BhC2ARIsAIJIiK_Id7AWqCR2kH8PMqmxpuS-JQQUwmoeeHYmDwg7XSIVe8tqCvcqrjkaAvNTEALw_wcB&ohost=www.google.com&cid=CAESV-D2ydXzHQvmgmHrXY6njC8Xo5SckVqa2UxKVnqvHZAooIq9B_duJgZILkRjP3LOZaYafaWzJCcXhCgQla_o6uuLzuLL00Qb0tMBFhfrO4MeOH6JKLip0g&sig=AOD64_1dP7EmUyFphI-m8gLapZcR7rdCOw&q&adurl&ved=2ahUKEwiul4-q9YCLAxWRHzQIHWI6LOUQ0Qx6BAgGEAM. His books, grounded in Buddhist wisdom and practice, have gained national attention. Through its numerous educational programs, contemplative retreats, and Soto Zen Buddhist practices, the New York Zen Center touches thousands of lives every year. Koshin has appeared on dozens of podcasts and his work has been featured in the New York Times, PBS, CBS Sunday Morning and other media outlets. In this episode we talk about: We get really real on the role of early childhood trauma and how that can show up in our relationships The importance of understanding your partner's operating manual and how to come up with rules of the road The role of humor in relationships—how it can be used to successfully name the difficult parts of our partner's personality—and how that can go wrong Why it's important to do your own work outside of your relationship—in therapy and meditation or whatever is useful to you And the value of learning to be uncomfortable… together Related Episodes: How (and Why) to Hug Your Inner Dragons | Richard Schwartz https://meditatehappier.com/podcast/tph/richard-schwartz-323 Escape From Zombieland | Koshin Paley Ellison https://meditatehappier.com/podcast/tph/koshin-paley-ellison-repost The Surprising Power of "Healthy Embarrassment" | Koshin Paley Ellison https://www.meditatehappier.com/podcast/tph/koshin-paley-ellison-528 The Art of Growing Up, Jerry Colonna https://www.danharris.com/p/the-art-of-growing-up-jerry-colonna-713 Jerry Colonna, 'CEO Whisperer' and Reboot.io Founder - Dan Harris https://www.danharris.com/p/jerry-colonna-ceo-whisperer-and-rebootio-5b9 This Neurobiologist Wants You To Ask One Question To Reframe Anxiety, Depression, And Trauma | Dr. Bruce Perry (Co-Interviewed by Dan's Wife, Bianca!) https://www.meditatehappier.com/podcast/tph/drbruceperry The Anti-Diet | Evelyn Tribole https://meditatehappier.com/podcast/tph/evelyn-tribole-rerun-2023 Follow Dan on social: Instagram https://bit.ly/3tGigG5, TikTok https://bit.ly/3FOA84J Subscribe to our YouTube Channel https://bit.ly/3FybRzD Our favorite playlists on: Anxiety https://spoti.fi/3Qa8kMT, Sleep https://spoti.fi/3MjtMxF, Relationships https://spoti.fi/3QvyA5J, Most Popular Episodes https://spoti.fi/3QxZASc

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:04Dan Harris?

  It's the 10% Happier Podcast. I'm Dan Harris.

• 0:19Dan Harris?

  Hello, everybody. How we doing? Today, we've got a candid, raw, insightful, useful, and often hilarious, seriously, genuinely hilarious, many, many belly laughs in the course of this conversation. And it's all about how to maintain a healthy marriage or any other kind of romantic relationship. We thought this was a good episode to drop as Valentine's Day rolls around. You're about to hear me and my wife, Dr. Bianca Harris, in conversation with our old, very close friends, Koshin Paley Ellison and Chodo Robert Campbell, a pair of married Zen priests. They are, in fact, maybe the happiest couple I've ever met. Koshin and Chodo run the New York Zen Center for Contemplative Care, which

• 1:00Dan Harris?

  does many things, including training people to be hospice volunteers. Bianca and I actually took a nine-month course at the Zen Center where we train to sit with dying people, and by extension, to sit with ourselves. In this conversation, we talk about the role of early childhood trauma and how that shows up in your intimate relationships, the importance of understanding your partner's operating manual, and how to come up with some rules of the road, the role of humor in relationships, how it can be used successfully and unsuccessfully, why it's important to do your own work outside of your relationship, and the value of learning to get uncomfortable together. Just a few notes before we dive in. It is not a coincidence, as I mentioned earlier, that we're dropping this episode around Valentine's Day. We've

• 1:44Dan Harris?

  also posted a few other episodes in recent days that might be of interest, including a quick solo pod where I sum up some of the lessons that I have personally learned about how not to torpedo your relationships. Also want to say, there's a quick mention at the top of this episode of somebody named Alexander. We don't explain who Alexander is. He is our son. Just a heads up on that. And finally, I just want to tell you a little bit more about our guests. Sensei Chodo Robert Campbell is a Zen teacher, a bereavement specialist, and a grief counselor. And Sensei Koshin Paley Ellison is a Zen teacher, Jungian and psychotherapist, and author of several books, including Wholehearted and Untangled.

• 2:22Speaker 01

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• 2:52Speaker 02

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• 3:27Dan Harris?

  Hi, guys. Thanks for doing this.

• 3:28Speaker 03

  Good to see you.

• 3:30Dan Harris?

  Any of you, any of the three of you, have any questions or concerns or anything you want to throw out now?

• 3:36Speaker 03

  Yes, my question is when we're going to hang out and actually share a meal.

• 3:42Dan Harris?

  I love that question. And Bianca, queen of our schedule, I will put all responsibility for that on you.

• 3:48Speaker 03

  Beautiful.

• 3:49Speaker 04

  That's fine. I used to resent that, actually. But then you started making plans without me recently, and they were all wrong, so I will take it back.

• 3:58Speaker 03

  Bianca, we're married to the same person. He's constantly making plans for dinner or for whatever. And says, "Oh, we're having dinner tomorrow night." Like, hmm, who are you having dinner with? We're having dinner with Scott. No, I didn't agree with her.

• 4:16Speaker 03

  Then he says, oh, God, I don't want to, you know, I can't counsel. I feel guilty. I ask, well, this is unilateral decision. It's a unilateral cancellation.

• 4:24Speaker 05

  And I realize it's good for you.

• 4:26Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 4:27Dan Harris?

  The terminology we use around this house is MP and YP. YP is your problem.

• 4:36Speaker 04

  How many things in the house do you think are my problem?

• 4:41Speaker 04

  In fact, Alexander has started to use the YP. And I don't like it.

• 4:47Speaker 03

  To you?

• 4:49Speaker 04

  Yes. Yes. But what I want to know from you, Chodo, for inspiration, really, is are you countering Koshin's plan making on principle or because the date truly doesn't work?

• 5:04Speaker 03

  Just to be cussed at most of the time.

• 5:08Speaker 03

  It's called oppositional defiance disorder. Koshin likes to term it that way. Usually it's because I haven't been consulted. For me, any kind of surprise, any change, for me personally, given, you know, my background, you know, my childhood stuff, it's like, if you're going to change something, let me know or ask me first because I can't take, you know, something started to work. It's really triggering for me. So suddenly it's a surprise. Oh, we're doing this. Oh, this has changed or we're going to do so and so, so and so. I say, well, I need to know these things upfront. You can't just bring something on me.

• 5:44Speaker 05

  So interesting because it's even with people that he, as you both know, that someone that he actually likes, which is not, you know, a huge circle. So it just, that's

• 5:59Speaker 05

  it's so it's interesting.

• 6:01Speaker 03

  Very small.

• 6:03Dan Harris?

  Let's just say, agency and consultation are important to you.

• 6:08Speaker 03

  For me. I think it's actually, I think it's probably more to do with agency. And it's not about being in control. It's about being partnered with, you know, let's have a, let's, let's just.

• 6:22Speaker 05

  And maybe a touch of.

• 6:24Speaker 03

  Well, my, around most things is controlled, but this, I think it's about, you know, respect for me. It's like, hey, maybe I don't want to do that.

• 6:33Speaker 04

  I was just gonna say, you used the word partnership. And I remember, early on in our marriage, Dan used to just automatically forward things to me. But CCing the person who is requesting a date or something, and he would say Bianca is gonna deal with it. And it took me a really long time. And still today, sometimes I have to remind myself that most of the time, this is coming from a place of generosity and partnership. But because of the space that I came from, it has felt, and I don't think it does as much anymore. And now, proof is in the pudding that he shouldn't be planning things. But it was more like, I don't have time to deal with it. Here you go.

• 7:17Speaker 04

  Your time is less valuable than mine. So that lack of even choice on an email or a text where somebody else is already there with the expectation, felt a little bit, it felt like a very, very minor kind of assault, where I had no choice in the matter. But I do understand more, after many years of marriage, that where he came from, as a child of an intact family, and he has said, this is me inviting you in and being a team. And that is not a natural instinct for me at all.

• 7:53Speaker 03

  I think Koshin's very much the same. He does it from a place of inviting me in, a place of love. And yet, it doesn't come across that way to me. But it is that it is coming from that place. And yet, for me, it's like, it has to do with, I think, part two. Don't do anything lovingly toward, don't do anything loving for me. What's the payback?

• 8:14Dan Harris?

  Oh, that's interesting.

• 8:15Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 8:16Dan Harris?

  That puts Koshin in a really tricky position, because if he wants to do something spontaneous and generous and loving for you, you're gonna view it with suspicion.

• 8:26Speaker 03

  Yeah, welcome to our marriage.

• 8:31Speaker 03

  Welcome.

• 8:33Speaker 05

  Yes, it is very tricky. So I'm also like so aware of that, that it's like, you know, trying to figure out what would be nourishing and knowing that there are some steps and a lot, as we call it, actually, very affectionately, like the rules. There's a lot of rules and like how to do things. And so sometimes I want to do something spontaneous. And that's when we get into trouble. Sometimes, sometimes.

• 9:05Dan Harris?

  What are the rules?

• 9:08Speaker 03

  Seek permission.

• 9:11Speaker 03

  No.

• 9:13Speaker 03

  Yeah, the rules are set. Yeah, it's to ask, to ask me if I would like to do this.

• 9:19Speaker 05

  Like super explicit, like we're thinking about seeing this person or doing this thing on this day. How do you feel about that?

• 9:27Speaker 03

  Or I've made a reservation for, really? Why?

• 9:33Speaker 03

  Gets tricky. The rules have kept us together for 23 years, so they're not that stringent.

• 9:38Speaker 05

  Right. And we can laugh about it too, like

• 9:41Speaker 03

  Right.

• 9:41Speaker 05

  when, when like there's an impasse and like he'll get angry. And then we can be like, oh, the rules. We forgot the rules.

• 9:49Dan Harris?

  Right.

• 9:51Speaker 03

  Whiplash Willie can go.

• 9:52Speaker 05

  And we remember Whiplash Willie shows up and.

• 9:58Dan Harris?

  Wait, wait, who's Whiplash Willie?

• 10:00Speaker 05

  Whiplash Willie.

• 10:01Speaker 03

  One of my, lot of my many.

• 10:03Speaker 05

  Looks like Chodo.

• 10:06Speaker 05

  Sometimes like, you know, after he says something, you know, you're like, oh, my neck, you know, I'm just like, you're just blindsided by that energy. And so like the beauty is actually so just like actually just calling it. So I say to him, you know, so Whiplash Willie, glad to see you. And when Chodo's ready, I'd love to talk to him about this. And we can participate later. Because we feel like to actually having a sense of humor in our relationship

• 10:41Speaker 05

  has been incredibly important. And because things are tough and sometimes we get upset and we get.

• 10:50Speaker 05

  Uncomfortable and I think it allows us to be real and loving and stay in relationship when things are tricky.

• 11:00Dan Harris?

  I have a million follow ups, but I'm feeling a little protective of Chodo here because we're talking about all these rules and how he's whiplash Willie and I know you also sometimes call him negative Nigel and, and, and it's like you're talking to, you're talking to him like you're performing in exorcism, you know, like, and, and there are good reasons here. So, Chodo, can you just describe a little bit, to the extent that you're comfortable with it, can you describe a little bit of your childhood so people understand the derivation of all this?

• 11:32Speaker 03

  So I immediately go back to, you know, four or four or five years of age where,

• 11:39Speaker 03

  you know, single mother, 17 years of age when she had me. So she had no role models. She was kind of a wild woman, wild child. So there was always a string of different fellows in her life and she had a predilection for violent alcoholics, even at 17. So there was never, and I never felt safe. I never felt in control because she was never in control. Well, she was in control, but in a, in a very kind of unhealthy control way. So there's always this fear of what's going to come next. Where are we going to be living next? Who are we going to be with next? Are we going to have a home to go to next? So

• 12:21Speaker 03

  there's this little kid was like, a mom would disappear for weeks on end. She would go out to find a job and I would be living with my aunt and she would be, you know, I'll see you tonight. And then she came back weeks later. So it was never really knowing. So I have to know what's happening. Where are you going? When are you coming home? And...

• 12:44Speaker 03

  Yeah, I mean, that's really where it began. A real deep seated fear of not being taken care of, included and feeling safe.

• 12:56Speaker 05

  Yep.

• 12:56Speaker 03

  So it's very, so I mean, you know, mom coming home with a different person, a different man. Every once in a while, I was like, who are we having dinner with tonight? Who is this person? You know, I don't know, you know, it's like.

• 13:10Speaker 05

  And they were dangerous.

• 13:11Speaker 03

  And they were, yeah, usually dangerous.

• 13:15Speaker 05

  I appreciate you talking about that. I want to say it's not out yet. I don't know when it'll be out, but Chodo's been working on a memoir. I've read parts of it. It's absolutely beautiful and harrowing. And so there's a lot more to this story, but that's just the tip of the iceberg. I'm glad you said it because it really does put the rules in perspective. And it's amazing you can have a sense of humor about it, but these rules come from a, a real place.

• 13:42Speaker 03

  Yeah, absolutely. No question. Sometimes it's, it's so real. I mean, it's like my whole body can just freeze. Can be something so simple, you know, as a reservation. Why didn't you tell me? Who is this? Why are we doing this? For a Christmas gift, a holiday gift, Koshin bought tickets to go see Modi, this wonderful, wonderful Jewish comedian at the Beacon Theater. And he gave me the tickets. I'm like, this is great, but no, you didn't tell me this was going to be happening. And I suddenly feel like I've been ambushed.

• 14:21Speaker 03

  And it's so fleeting. It happens in just a split second. And then I say, oh, I'm so sorry. Thank you. It's just, I really, I really like this guy. I really appreciate it. And I think if Koshin were to say, listen, I got us tickets for something that you really like, that you really appreciate. And here they are. But it's when it's kind of given, I don't trust. I don't trust gifts, basically. What are you giving me? I need to know before you give it to me. I don't trust them.

• 14:46Speaker 05

  But also sometimes it takes you a minute, like you have the reaction. And then to me, it's like your practice allows you to like, almost in a couple of breaths to like come back and be like, oh, right. I love this guy and we're going to have so much fun, which we did do. But I think it's sometimes what I experienced in the relationship is that sometimes it's learning to have a loving attitude for me to realize like.

• 15:13Speaker 05

  When I was even handing it to him, I was like, oh, boy, you know, and just having to realize that that will come and then they'll be awake after the wave. And I will be able to actually enjoy it, but it's a process that to me has been important part of loving each other. Yeah.

• 15:40Dan Harris?

  What I'm hearing here and Bianca, I think this kind of reminds me of our interview that we did with Bruce Perry, who's this incredible psychotherapist and I think neuroscientist as well. Bianca will correct me on that. But he wrote a book, he wrote it with Oprah and the basic thesis was we're asking the wrong question in relationships, romantic or otherwise. Often we ask, what's the matter with you? And instead, we should be asking, what happened to you? So like, understanding your partner's shit, you understanding their black bag. I know that's a term that you caution use a lot in your teaching. It's from a poet who talks about how we're all carrying around an invisible black bag of our past traumas. And unless you can kind of see the other person's black bag, the

• 16:22Dan Harris?

  ride's gonna be bumpy no matter what. But if you're not dealing with the bag, you're in trouble. Anyway, Bianca, does that all sound right to you, given our past history meritally and editorially?

• 16:35Speaker 04

  Yeah, I have so many things sort of going through my, my mind right now. One of which I should just say, not directly related to what Dan is asking, that I just felt very overcome by emotion, just loving you guys and Chodo, just feeling what, as much as I've heard your stories over and over, and I look forward to hearing them again and again, it still feels so raw and fresh every time. And, you know, to the extent that I can relate, even in the smallest, smallest way, I just love you so much and can't believe what you've been through and so grateful for what you put out there, both

• 17:14Speaker 04

  of you, of course. And along those lines, I was wondering, as far as the rules go, because we haven't had that conversation, even though we know a lot about each other. And my past may have more sort of highlights, but I think some of the lowlights from Dan's past are sort of coming out a little more slowly.

• 17:38Speaker 04

  And it's not like in any given scenario, you're holding those black bags equally for each other because you're having your own experience. And so I'm just wondering, at what point in your relationship, did the rules get established? Was it after, you know, a long period of trial and error? And then being like, oh, okay, wait, this is what we understand about us. Here's how we should go forward. Or were you just sort of that together psychologically and emotionally early on to say, Chodo, like this is what I'm about. This is what I need if you want to be with me. How you know you need those things and how you adapt them over time?

• 18:23Speaker 03

  I think in the beginning, you must have got a sense of the fact that I needed rules, that I needed to feel safe, right? Also to emotional support. And yet it was very difficult to receive. And I think you knew that. You must have known that in the very beginning because I tend to be an open book. I lay my shit out on the ground and say, here it is. This is who I am. And I think, you know, probably in the beginning of the relationship, it wasn't so slowly, slowly, slowly. You can answer the question, but for me, I would say it was like a bit by bit by bit, like a little carrot. But what was your experience?

• 18:59Speaker 05

  No, I think that from the very beginning, I was very aware and also drawn to you, of course. And so entranced and delighted by your complexity. And also like there are parts of you that were, to me, like your level of anger was, as you know, was actually terrifying to me. And it would scare the crap out of me. And I had a hard time understanding that it didn't have to do with me. We'd just get really angry about things. But I think at the same time, like as we were getting to know each other.

• 19:35Speaker 05

  You wanted to, as you helped try before we buy. And, uh, and I said, uh, no, no, no, no. Like, you have to make a decision that you actually want to be with me. Cause I was actually so clear that this was like a real thing. And Chad was in another situation. So I was like, you have to say, you were, he was married. And I was like, you married six months. He was married six months and, uh.

• 20:07Speaker 03

  So I said, can I try before I buy? Cause this might be graduation or.

• 20:11Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 20:13Speaker 03

  He's like.

• 20:14Speaker 05

  And my grandmother too was like, don't do that. Cause otherwise you'll always be with someone who did that.

• 20:21Speaker 05

  And I feel like in so many ways, like that was a really important part of the beginning of forging of our relationship to say like, what are we doing and what are we willing to do? And we were both willing to make big sacrifices, which I think we often do unconsciously. But I feel like we both had done a lot of work psychologically on ourselves. And we were both, you know, as pretty steady practitioners. And I think all of those things helped enormous amount. So that when we encountered things like needing rules, it was actually helpful. And we both could understand, cause I also come from a background with lots of trauma too.

• 21:04Speaker 05

  Not the same, but just my own version. And so I think that I was also able to appreciate the rattled tenderness that he experiences and the need for protection. So, cause I also needed to. And I think that we're always trying to learn how to support each other in that, which is, you know, a road.

• 21:30Speaker 03

  I think we should also say that I'm very loving and very generous, very open and heartwarming, caring, which comes, actually, which, which comes from a place of deprivation in so many ways as a child. I'm very, very generous and very loving and very caring. And, you know, and I show them in my food, in my gifts. So I really think about Koshin, what she brings to me and how can I repay him in ways that are not always physically intimate. You know, it's like, I can show my love by giving you this. I can show my love by doing this. But sometimes around physical intimacy, there's still that kind of fear. And on occasion, right?

• 22:18Dan Harris?

  That was a kiss for you listeners. And I would add to your, in terms of your generosity, Chodo, like also creating a beautiful space. You're, you're super into flowers and design. And so it's not just food.

• 22:29Speaker 05

  No, it's all inclusive. Yeah. So I think that it's also really learning how to respect one another is a rare thing. To me, one of the most important parts of our relationship is our love and shared heart and appreciation. We're so different in so many ways. And yet we share this, I think, of kindness and a love for each other and for others that feels the most important thing. And it feels rare. And it feels devotional and spacious at the same time, to me.

• 23:11Speaker 03

  Two wounded warriors.

• 23:12Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 23:13Speaker 03

  Meeting.

• 23:15Speaker 05

  What about you two?

• 23:19Speaker 04

  I was just thinking that we, we should probably have some names for each other because even though there's a lot of humor, it's usually after the fact. Well, it depends what we're talking about. But for the times when you really need it, it doesn't usually come right away. Although calling somebody else out on their state can also go very wrong. So you have to read the room. But I don't want to know what your name for me would be, but we should think about it.

• 23:49Speaker 04

  Because I do think it would.

• 23:53Speaker 04

  Not on air. I have a few in mind for you, but also not on air.

• 23:58Dan Harris?

  No, you can say those. No, I have no, I have no gurt.

• 24:02Speaker 04

  I need to.

• 24:02Speaker 05

  And now I'm so curious.

• 24:04Speaker 04

  I need to choose very carefully for my own, my own self. Yeah, but I think that is very useful. And there was a turning point for sure, as we are also very different, different backgrounds, different expressions of caring, different changes in our outlooks and choices in life, many of which have paralleled each other, some of which are just like off cycle. You know, I'm still, Dan has very much figured out his lane in terms of shifting from journalist to whatever we're calling you now, but it's working, you know? No, but you know where your passion lies, both intellectually and professionally and

• 24:44Speaker 04

  all the things. And I'm sort of in an in-between place and, and that certainly affects me, you know, how I am on a daily basis for now. But yeah, to have a little perspective, which we have in learning more about each other, but in the moment when one is not feeling cared for as much as they'd like to be, and the other isn't in a place necessarily to hear it and respond to it, that is a tricky zone. And so a name might help. I don't know. What do you think?

• 25:19Dan Harris?

  Kind of reminds me of like performing IFS on your romantic partner, you know? IFS, just for the uninitiated, everybody on this call knows what it is, but just for the listener, Internal Family Systems, I'll drop some links in the show notes. I've done some episodes on this. It's a form of therapy where you name your inner parts. We all have different aspects of our personality, jealous mode, anger mode, generous mode, and you, you name and create relationships with each of these aspects of your personality. And Koshin, coming up with these names for Chodo's parts is, and it's probably not a coincidence that Koshin is a trained therapist, is naming aspects of Chodo's inner repertoire. And I think the question you're asking Bianca is like, how can you do that, especially with

• 26:04Dan Harris?

  some humor, that doesn't make the situation more combustible in tenuous moments?

• 26:10Speaker 04

  Yeah, well, you can't make it up on the fly, that's for sure, in the middle of the discussion. That would be very bad.

• 26:18Dan Harris?

  Well, I would imagine what you guys did is come up with these names when you weren't in the middle of a fight and so that when you were in a fight, the names could be invoked with some degree, some potential for success.

• 26:32Speaker 05

  Well, and also, I think our experience too is actually learning Whiplash Willie and Negative Nigel, really actually naming them avoids a lot of fights, actually, because I feel like when those folks show up, they tend to cause trouble, right? And that's just what they do. And so I think that actually us being able to have a sense of humor about it in the moment, right, is able to kind of allay it. And I think that that has been amazing for me because actually, one of the things that has been challenging for me in that situation is that I used to take Whiplash Willie and

• 27:16Speaker 05

  Negative Nigel so personally, when he's just feeling angry or just feeling negative or whatever that is. And I used to, because of my history, feel like I did something wrong. So now it actually has been actually very healing in our relationship to not have to believe that. Yeah.

• 27:45Speaker 04

  But shouldn't it work both ways also?

• 27:48Speaker 03

  I was gonna say, let's just jump in there for, oh, man.

• 27:51Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 27:52Speaker 03

  Coaching Klein.

• 27:54Speaker 04

  I feel very protective.

• 27:55Speaker 03

  Coaching Klein and Freddie Freud over here. Coaching Klein and Freddie Freud, it's like, you know what? Stop therapizing me, you know? So he says, so what's going on for you? What's the story you're telling yourself, right? Which I love, Jerry Colonna. What's the story you're telling yourself now? I was like, you know what? F you, Freddie Freud. Leave me to it, I'll be just fine. Coaching Klein. So I do have these pet names too.

• 28:33Speaker 05

  I've just learned those two just now.

• 28:35Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 28:38Speaker 03

  This is a living live moment. Freddy Freud over here.

• 28:44Speaker 04

  It's a good one.

• 28:45Speaker 03

  Isn't that great?

• 28:46Dan Harris?

  But what you're saying, Toto, is that that sometimes when he does IFS on you, it doesn't go down well.

• 28:53Speaker 03

  Right. It never goes down well.

• 28:58Speaker 03

  He usually tells me to go F myself.

• 29:01Dan Harris?

  You can say fuck on this show. I don't know why you're not saying fuck.

• 29:03Speaker 03

  I usually, let's go fuck yourself. Or other words, but actually, but I'm fine. And I usually just say, okay. I will. I'll go do that. And I'm gonna go to the gym or whatever that is, you know? So I think that it doesn't always like in that moment, break it. But it does for me. It breaks the the log where I get into trouble, where I over personalize. And actually, when I over personalize it and think that he's angry and it's about me.

• 29:36Speaker 03

  What makes it complex too is this kind of relation, this back and forth thing of the psychological back and forth, you know? So I can drive him to this place where he needs to go to the gym, get out of my sight, kind of thing. But then when he leaves, it's like, when are you coming back? You know, and so I get, get really. If he's not back in an hour, it's like, he's not coming back.

• 29:57Dan Harris?

  You get insecure.

• 29:58Speaker 03

  I get really insecure. And then I'm texting, where are you now? I'm in the gym. How long are you gonna be? And then it's like, how long are you gonna be? Because I need to put the kettle on. I need to start doing. And when really it's like, when are you coming home? Are you coming home?

• 30:12Speaker 04

  I used to have that experience a lot. Now I ask when he's home with a different answer.

• 30:19Speaker 03

  When are you leaving?

• 30:23Speaker 04

  How long is it gonna be? Take a little more time.

• 30:26Speaker 03

  Don't worry, take your time.

• 30:29Speaker 03

  Tomorrow's fine.

• 30:31Speaker 04

  But I I used to have the same, you know, fears. And with Dan traveling so much early on and just being sort of too busy and also unfamiliar with the emotional state of somebody who fears abandonment, which I genuinely don't feel I have that fear anymore, but undoubtedly it comes out in other ways because it's a part of your history that doesn't really go away, even if you have a better relationship with it or to it. So it doesn't present like that at all for me anymore. But yes, it's got to present in other ways. And that probably comes out in not necessarily the content of our arguments, but the manner

• 31:16Speaker 04

  in which we argue, because then it touches on a place of a real deep seated, like existential, you know, am I not good enough? And all the things that I know might be pointed out to me because you know they're probably true. It's easier to get defensive because that is the very thing that you worry about being the thing that drives somebody away.

• 31:44Speaker 03

  Totally get it. Totally get it. I mean, it's June and I again, trying to hit Bianca.

• 31:50Speaker 04

  Always.

• 31:51Speaker 03

  Coaching's much better, you know, it's like, I know this is not about me. Like when I kind of shoot the arrows to it, it's like, you know, this is not about me. And I fully get it, love you, and what's going on. And sometimes I can say, you know, well, what got touched right now is boom. And other times I just have to, whiplash really comes out. So this beautiful relationship towards each other and our own kind of her places. But coaching's much better, or not better, but it's much easier for coaching to say, well, you know, what's going on right now?

• 32:31Speaker 05

  There are moments where I like, I do take it really personally. Still, there are moments that I get like, I feel like a little baby, like a giant baby, actually. And I feel like I want to be a pup in his pup who's, you know, like I feel that right? And I want reassurance. I want.

• 32:53Speaker 05

  And that makes them crazy. Yeah.

• 32:56Speaker 04

  Well, that's where Chodo and I have sort of always had a bit of an alliance and just, I mean, the special love, not that I don't love you dearly, Koshin, but we've always also talked about in relationship occasionally, there's a little bit of a flip where Dan and Chodo are a little more aligned. So it's interesting that there are ways in which we are more similar, Chodo, as individuals and friends and in community than in relationship. Even if some of the same fears can be triggered, sometimes your response maybe to your own fears is more similar to Dan's frostiness.

• 33:41Speaker 04

  And for lack of a better, and I'm not trying to be disparaging, but your way a little bit is to push away.

• 33:49Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 33:50Speaker 04

  Even if you want to pull closer.

• 33:53Dan Harris?

  Plus one on everything you just said there. I don't, don't take it personally at all, at least not right now.

• 34:00Speaker 04

  The day is young.

• 34:02Dan Harris?

  Exactly.

• 34:06Dan Harris?

  The name that's coming to mind right now is another person we all know, and I think we all really revere is this guy, Michael Vincent Miller, who is a legendary therapist and in particular has done a lot of great couples therapy. And Bianca and I have done a lot of couples therapy with Michael and really love him. And he has this concept of intimate terrorism. And he came up with this concept before nine 11 and before the word terrorism really kind of took on the, it's always been a hefty word and he chose it deliberately, but it's, it's even more loaded now. And so he's always quick to point that out. But he talks about how in every relationship or pretty much every relationship, there's usually somebody who fears abandonment and another person who fears engulfment.

• 34:49Dan Harris?

  And with us, Bianca, and I can kind of see it with Koshin and Chodo, in your case, given your past, there were fears of abandonment. In my case, fears of like engulfment, meaning specifically for me, like, I can't handle this. In fact, where I would go with it is, I must be a monster who's incapable of love because I cannot handle these demands. And

• 35:13Speaker 04

  Time out. I don't know how much of this we're gonna want to put in, but what demands do you speak of? Or like, how can we have this conversation?

• 35:21Dan Harris?

  Oh, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry. I apologize. They're not even like, big demands. Just basic demands for not being frosty in moments when you need it. So you don't make outsized demands, and I apologize. I should have been clear about that. So this is in no way to denigrate you. More to talk about my own feelings of deficiency and how this fits within this concept that, that Michael talks about of intimate terrorism, that each side is triggering the other person's fears and can put you into a downward spiral, which my friend Evelyn Tribole calls the toilet vortex. And the way out, I think, or at least one way out that Koshin is able to do sometimes, and I think we're all able to do sometimes,

• 36:06Dan Harris?

  is to have some compassion, not only for yourself, but for where the other person's coming from, and to recognize that it's not personal. And so over time for me to have more confidence that, yeah, you know, I'm not, I'm not a horrible person. Like, yes, I might get annoyed inappropriately, but I still have what it takes to like, be a husband. Anyway, so does that, Bianca, I know I might have pissed you off there. Did I clean it up?

• 36:31Speaker 04

  You did clean it up. Which is not to say there aren't other things that are appropriately, you know, triggering, but just as a generalization.

• 36:39Dan Harris?

  [laughing]

• 36:41Speaker 04

  And I would say, one of the triggers actually is really putting those labels. I understand the concept, but I, you know, the word abandonment is a very challenging one. I think it has a, you know, there's a victim kind of quality to it. There's something about it that doesn't, for me at least, feel quite right, but it's easy to have an opinion about it, you know, from the inside or the outside. And so- Part of that struggle, knowing that, you know, if we're in a position where you're thinking about it, I know that you're not understanding, actually. You may think you're understanding our roles, but the understanding of what I'm actually feeling

• 37:25Speaker 04

  in fearing abandonment, for lack of a better word, gets a little diluted. And of course, I can't make that whole argument in the moment. But what I would say is that there's a little bit of both in everyone. He's, you know, you're not all one thing. I definitely fear engulfment, and it doesn't present in the same way. So yeah, I would just be careful for me personally about that. But that's why I rejected it at the beginning of our sessions with him, only because it's largely correct as it would go.

• 37:57Speaker 05

  But not always so, right?

• 37:59Dan Harris?

  Yeah.

• 37:59Speaker 04

  Yeah. And who gets to decide?

• 38:02Dan Harris?

  That's true with every model, right? Every heuristic for the mind or for relationships. It's like, not maybe not every model, but for most models, it's they're useful to a point.

• 38:13Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 38:18Dan Harris?

  Coming up, Koshin and Chodo talk about how being with dying people can inform your relationships and the importance of working on yourself outside of your relationship.

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• 39:09Speaker 05

  I'm curious about one of the things that I think is implicit and explicit in our relationship together, the four of us, is that we all appreciate doing work and to be exploring and to both individually and as couples and as friends. And I think that one of the things, you know, I was thinking about one of my mentors, this guy named James Holman, said, if you don't exaggerate, you know, what's the point of speaking? So actually, when I was thinking about

• 39:43Speaker 03

  I knew exaggerate a lot.

• 39:45Speaker 05

  Well, he was my mentor, you know.

• 39:50Speaker 05

  But I was wondering about Bianca, your response to Dan, because I was just hearing him. And when he was sharing, what he was sharing about, I was imagining that he was not talking about large demands. And I was just curious, since we had this live moment, if it'd be okay. And it may not be okay, but I'm just curious because I feel that that is something that happens with us, that sometimes we say words that fire us up in some way. And I was thinking about when Chodo thinks I'm being Freddie Freud, for example, I'm actually using concepts about him rather than feeling it, right? I think that that's what I'm kind of actually

• 40:35Speaker 05

  in a way pathologizing him, or he feels pathologized. So I was just, I wondered if it would be okay if you wanted to say anything about it.

• 40:46Speaker 04

  Sure. I mean, I think what you said right there was really illuminating, feeling pathologized, even if there's truth to it. In those moments when you're already feeling vulnerable, even if it seems like you're on the attack, the only thing that's going to make it worse, even if it's based in understanding and compassion, is assigning it that role in a way that takes away your agency, that makes you feel, you allow yourself to feel misunderstood, or worse, it touches so much on the thing that's true, that it's too painful, and your

• 41:26Speaker 04

  only choice is to sort of push it back out. And I think one of Dan's greatest strengths is, you know, he's Exacting with his words and, you know, is brilliant and can make sort of general, you know, logical arguments that nobody could argue with, except that that's not always the plane that we're on, which is not to say he's not having emotions. It just means that I know for me personally, given my emotions and lack of skillful communication, using logic in those moments, I know I've lost from the beginning because there is

• 42:07Speaker 04

  no better human that I know out there that can think and speak so clearly and so exacting in the way that Dan does. And in those moments, I can't understand it. I'm, I'm just paralyzed because I know I can't do better. There isn't even really space for me to understand his motivation or more importantly, his hurt. So as somebody who used to very much be a people pleaser, who's reversed course on that, probably to the other extreme, just in trying to, you know, heal on my own, it's kind of had an effect on Dan that I've missed on a number of occasions, which is that I hurt him too.

• 42:53Dan Harris?

  I do want to take your side on, you made a lot of really excellent points in there. I agreed with all of them. Well, that's going to sound a little self-serving because you said all this nice stuff about what a good arguer I am. That's not, that's not the part I'm trying to accentuate. The minor point I want to take your side on specifically is this use of words on my part. And like, yeah, you had a minute there where you got a little activated by my use of the word demands, but I take your side on that. Like, I understand how that would sound pathologizing and like maybe some percentage true, but not

• 43:35Dan Harris?

  all the way true. And same with the word abandonment. And so, yeah, long way of saying that. I think I can make the empathic leap on that.

• 43:46Speaker 03

  I'm just blown away by Bianca's thoughts and thoughts.

• 43:50Speaker 04

  What?

• 43:53Speaker 03

  Take it in Bianca, take it in, take it in.

• 43:55Speaker 04

  But I genuinely don't know why.

• 43:58Speaker 03

  You don't know, oh, because you spoke so eloquently. I mean, you spoke from my, from

• 44:02Speaker 04

  Thank you.

• 44:02Speaker 03

  From me, my heart too. It's like, yeah. Koshin is, uh,

• 44:09Speaker 03

  and it does not sound denigrating, which it is, but I'll put it down there.

• 44:16Speaker 03

  I see my

• 44:17Speaker 05

  Ready for the sweetness?

• 44:18Speaker 03

  No, no, no, for me, no, I'm not denigrating myself, you know, so.

• 44:21Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 44:23Speaker 03

  I can do that too, but I'm not thinking about me.

• 44:29Speaker 03

  I always put most people that we know in the category above, uh, I see everyone, most everyone we know is intellectually can't do the way Baker trails appearing on my mind. Um, but, uh, I don't see myself equal on so many levels, intellectually. Most of the people that we know, I come from this place of very, a very feeling place as opposed to, you know, a place of, um, education, should we say? I mean, I have a lot of wisdom, but it comes from a very different place. So sometimes I get very tongue tied when I can't, when coaching gets into this kind of therapizing or just being actually very smart. It comes across as very smart and very learned. And I'm like,

• 45:09Speaker 03

  you know, as a kid that ran away from home at 16 and had no real formal education, I think I don't know how to respond. So I respond with violence, you know, verbal violence, abuse, because that's what I know. Again, that's my, um, placement, that's my place in this moment. Like I can,

• 45:28Speaker 03

  I think it's picking up on what Bianca was saying. So I come from this very feeling place, this place of, it's not emotional, it's very feeling. It's a deep seated feeling of, oh, it all comes out, all my shit.

• 45:42Speaker 03

  And you know, your wisdom and all my wisdom and I like, all my wisdom comes out of that place too. I think it has very little to do with the intellect and more to do with just being in the world in a very different way, being in the world in a, um.

• 45:59Speaker 03

  Sensory, I mean, it has to do with sensory, it has to do with almost, it's a deep, deep empathy for others and not so much for myself, but for others, which makes me such a great caregiver and great companion to those who are dying, because it's so fresh in me. It's like, yeah, I can go there. I'm not afraid of this moment. I'm not afraid of these moments.

• 46:21Speaker 05

  You're not afraid of fear.

• 46:22Speaker 03

  I'm not afraid of fear. I'm not afraid of your anger because you are dying. And this is not coming from any, any books. This is not coming from any teachings, but other than my own innate wisdom and.

• 46:35Speaker 05

  And thirty years of meditation.

• 46:37Speaker 03

  Yeah, thirty years of meditation, for sure. There you're sitting on the cushion. But this deep, deep, deep, deep, deep knowing that what I have to offer is enough, right? I don't really need to have all those credentials. Although there are times where I thought I wish I had them, but mostly it's like, oh, fuck it. This is what you get.

• 46:59Speaker 03

  Stay right here, man.

• 47:02Speaker 04

  Which is, you're the best. So that's great for us. But in terms of what you're saying about, you know, what you do at the bedside, you know, with people who are, who are dying, and it's just incredible. So I'm not likening what I'm about to say to what you do, but in the context of my training and the ICU and, you know, quite a lot of death as well, it is the place where I feel most comfortable, most wise and most capable, actually, at the bedside, just at that fine line between life and death. Not just, I mean, mostly, yes,

• 47:45Speaker 04

  the patient, but the people around the patient. But I, you know, if I'm honest about it, of course, a lot of it, most of it comes, I think, from empathy and awe at the human body and the world and just solidarity and whatever way you want to look at it. But also, I'm my best when the spotlight is not on me. And.

• 48:11Speaker 04

  Given that our issues, you know, aren't truly gone, but we don't have to face them in those moments because there's nothing more important, I think, than what others are going through in that context. How much of it is also sort of self-serving? I often ask myself. Not to take away from the motivation and the skill set and the sort of purity of what's happening, but I do know that I'm more capable in that scenario because it's not about me.

• 48:47Speaker 03

  Yes, and over the years, my Buddhist practice has taught me, or I've embodied or embraced the idea that it's not about me. You know, when I'm in the room with someone or I'm at bedside with someone, there's no othering. It's not there, there in that bed, I'm here. It's about how do I join this person, but not coming with any agenda and not making it about me at all. It's like, it's the two of us in this room, in this moment together. Yes, you're the person that's dying and I'm here with you. And there's no, there's that cliche, there's no separation. In fact, there isn't because we're actually both dying in the moment. It's just that you're further along in the process.

• 49:31Speaker 03

  So if I can take out the me, the self, the chodo, just be fully present to whatever is happening in that universe, in that room, beyond the walls, just be here with you. It's so fucking profound. There's nothing else like it. It's just, it's dropping away. Because there's no, there's no room for ego, I don't think. If, if for me, my own experience. There's no room for ego, there's no room for, I'm here, I'm your sacred, I'm going to be with you till you die, till your last breath, don't worry. It's like, no, it's just, here we are.

• 50:13Speaker 03

  This breath is all there is in this room right now. Just, that's it.

• 50:20Speaker 04

  That is really what you taught us in the foundations course. And I guess the thing when I try to look down on that scene, sort of outside of myself, I see one thing.

• 50:35Speaker 04

  And I agree, there is no room for you and you are together. But there is a sense of relief for me that I'm not in myself. That I, well, to whatever, however, the semantics work, there's a relief that the spotlight isn't there and the best of me can come out. But the counter to that is that you return to your life and the days that you're not at the bedside.

• 51:05Speaker 04

  And the, in some ways, the absolute opposite happens. And that, is that destabilizing for you as somebody who has so much practice in being present and the breath and I'm not nearly as close? Or I'm not sure if that was a clear question, but?

• 51:24Speaker 03

  It wasn't very clear. The question wasn't very clear, but what I'm picking up on maybe is, so first of all, I just want to say also, the gift of having, not having that formal education for me is that I am coming totally from this place of feeling, totally from this place of intuition and instinct. So I'm not getting, as with a doctor, there's the all sorts of other stuff going on in the back of the mind, what's this patient, how long, whatever it is, you know, it's like, there's also other internal information coming. For me, it's just, and yet, when I'm back out of the, when I'm out of the room, of course, you know, it's like, I'm in my life in a different way, you know? Yes, I'm in my life when I'm with someone, but outside of that experience, yeah, I'm

• 52:08Speaker 03

  on the street, I'm, you know, I'm coming to work, I'm running the center with kosher and.

• 52:17Speaker 03

  Getting caught up in all my bullshit and my ego for sure.

• 52:21Speaker 05

  And not, and not.

• 52:24Speaker 03

  And not. Well, I don't know about the and not. I know for sure. I'm getting caught up in all sorts of bullshit in my mind. It's in that place of, so in that place of being with someone who's dying that, that all that, as I said, that stuff drops away. And in my life outside of, but my work there, it all comes flooding back.

• 52:42Speaker 05

  I want to just interject because I feel like actually maybe this is for, you know, Dan and Bianca and you like, and myself, like I think that all of us have had that experience of dropping some of our bullshit and so that we can actually be with another person. And how wonderful that is, it is to me, like that's what compassion is. And for me, what I keep learning, and I feel like I've seen with all of us in different ways, not like any of us are good at it, but the willingness to do that in more and more moments.

• 53:25Speaker 05

  And throughout our life, to me, in our interpersonal relationships and like in your marriage and our marriage and in our friendships, in our family relationships and all these things, not like we're ever good at it, but we kind of know we've had that experience.

• 53:41Speaker 05

  I mean, I know I've had those moments with my father, who I love very much, but we had this like terrible dynamic about this one particular thing. And it was through the experience of being with people in extremis that I was able to really see how I was getting caught up in some bullshit in my mind. And I was able to let this one thing drop. And it was an amazing experience. And, and I'm just, I've seen that with you, Toto, like that you should see his relationships with people in Starbucks. Like he's so alive and present to so many people, like between where we live and this place. It's just like that. It doesn't mean that like, and also we all get caught up.

• 54:25Speaker 05

  But I think it's always hard for us to also celebrate that there are moments where we don't. And I've experienced that with you, Dan. I've experienced that with you, Bianca, and of course with Toto, just like where you're just with each other.

• 54:42Speaker 05

  I just want to celebrate that also. There's those sweet moments that I feel like I'm just appreciating more.

• 54:53Dan Harris?

  I think what you're pointing to, Koshin, is that it can be really helpful to have some sort of practice, whether it's going to therapy, or meditation, or whatever, that you bring into a relationship, because it does allow you, and I'm going to quote Michael Vincent Miller again, in something he said to me, which is, to turn down the I, the letter I, the ego, the ensconcement in yourself, to turn that down and be more available. Doing therapy, doing meditation can help, so that you can show up in the right way for whoever you're married to or in a relationship with.

• 55:32Speaker 03

  I wondered, Dan, you've spoken about this before, I'm sure, on a number of occasions, but your experience with Ronnie, when you were in hospice, how that was for you, when it comes to like, being with another person who is approaching death, although it took a long time with Ronnie, but how were you in that relationship when you were just you and Ronnie?

• 55:52Speaker 05

  How did it change your relationship? Did that change you?

• 55:55Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 55:56Dan Harris?

  Well, it's interesting, so just to give some context to the listener, Bianca and I did a course, a nine-month course, through the New York Zen Center for Contemplative Care, which is run by Koshin and Chodo, they have a nine-month course called Foundations, and it teaches you essentially how to be a volunteer in a hospice. And so I was volunteering during those nine months in a hospice where I met this guy, Ronnie, who had been admitted to a hospice with a diagnosis of three days to live, and by the time I met him, had been in the hospice for three years. And ended up living three more years, and the reason in part why I, you know, often

• 56:39Dan Harris?

  people stop being a volunteer at the end of the nine months, I kept being a volunteer is because I developed such a close relationship with this guy Ronnie. We had nothing in common on the surface, he was a construction worker from Harlem, who, you know, lived a completely different life than I did, but we really hit it off. And I did experience moments of...

• 57:00Dan Harris?

  So this was in like 2016 when I met him and when I did this course with you guys. And I did experience moments of, you know, the self falling away and being totally available to him and others in the hospice. And to get back to Bianca's original question, you know, I would, I could step out of hospice and like have a temper tantrum on text with somebody at work and, you know, all of my crap would come back. And so it was a really helpful experience, but it wasn't like I, you know, all of a sudden was fixed as a husband and father.

• 57:35Speaker 05

  No, no, no.

• 57:39Dan Harris?

  You were too quick to agree with that. I just want to point out.

• 57:52Dan Harris?

  Coming up, Koshin and Chodo talk about some practical pointers for maintaining a healthy and long lasting relationship, which they have definitely done.

• 58:11Speaker 01

  OnDeck is built to back small businesses like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team, or bridging cash flow gaps, OnDeck's loans up to $400,000 help make it happen fast. Rated A+ by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of five-star TrustPilot reviews, OnDeck delivers funding you can count on. Apply in minutes at ondeck.com. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 58:43Dan Harris?

  In our remaining time here, the executive producer of this show, DJ Kajmir, has often pointed out that one of the hallmarks of the show is that we're relentlessly practical. So I do want to come back to some practical stuff that we started with really, and I just want to put a fine point on it for the listeners. And so I'm kind of going to throw some questions at you guys, specifically Chodo and Koshin, for listeners who want to learn from how you've had this incredibly successful relationship for so long, especially given the fact that you both come out of backgrounds of significant trauma. And in the case of Koshin, you know, he's been on the show before. I'll drop some links in the show notes where he talks about his childhood, which was no walk in the park. You know, specifically looking at what we can talk about that we can leave people with that's practical is

• 59:29Dan Harris?

  Understanding your partner's patterns and having some compassion for them. Understanding your own patterns that you bring into relationship and being able to call out the other person's inner characters skillfully, it's not always going to work. And also being able to create some sort of rules or to bring in another name that we're all familiar with, Jerry Colonna, who talks about relationships in a work context mostly. He talks about giving people your operating manual. And that's, I think, portable over to romantic relationships too. So I'm throwing a lot at you now and I'm kind of looking at you, Koshin, to land this plane for me, but to help me think about what specific advice we can give to people, given everything we've talked about in this conversation.

• 1:00:14Speaker 05

  So the first thing to me is the beauty of being in relationship, for example, with Chodo, and I feel like actually, again, what the four of us share is that to be engaged in our work, which is to understand and be interested in our psychological and spiritual life inside and out. And to me, so finding therapy, finding a meditation practice, both individually and finding ways to connect together around shared exploration is really, really, to me, is the reason why our relationship works, is that shared interest in the value.

• 1:00:59Speaker 05

  So when, it's one thing to have values of growing and learning and not having our values match. And so I feel like that we do this very imperfectly, but the willingness to say like, how are we doing our values and what we're actually doing together matching? So that's one thing. And to me, you do that through psychological work, spiritual work, meditation practice, finding ways of digging in in the long term, finding ways to really, the second thing is really define those. Loving ways to know each other, to know those, especially the characters of ourselves,

• 1:01:44Speaker 05

  the aspects that are challenging and how do we recognize them as patterns and it's not who the person is. So IFS talks about it as parts, Jung calls them aspects, you know, that I think is just to really appreciate and learn how to love actually and have actual real compassion, which is not easy for ourselves in relationship with our partners, challenging aspects and to realize that they're being challenged and working with it too, and it's not fun for them in those moments either. And that for me is really challenging

• 1:02:25Speaker 05

  and really important, learning to have real compassion for your partner when they're suffering and they're spitting at you, not literally, but like that there is just like coming at you and realizing and learning how to create, set boundaries or rules to say, you know, that that's not okay. I know you're having a hard time and I'm gonna go and do this and I look forward to reconnecting with you. I feel like that is really important. And then another thing is what Jerry Colonna taught us in our relationship was, you know, telling the story about yourself, like what's the story you're telling yourself right now?

• 1:03:08Speaker 05

  That has been so important in moments for Choda and I. It's like another part of the toolkit of really realizing like, wow.

• 1:03:19Speaker 05

  It's also a way of recognizing that you and your partner are struggling in that moment. And to me, it's actually another way of developing love and compassion is to look at him across the room and see his face struggling and I'm struggling and I realize like we're both caught in a story.

• 1:03:42Speaker 05

  And learning how to say that has been so freeing and healing for me and thanks for us.

• 1:03:50Speaker 03

  So I'm right now caught in this moment of deep admiration for Koshin's ability to just put it out there. So

• 1:04:01Speaker 03

  so clearly with such intellect, you know, with such a learned person that he is, I'm just sometimes sitting next to him, think, wow, how can, how does he put all that together? So it's just so quickly. And it's not coming from a place of

• 1:04:20Speaker 03

  envy or jealousy or it's coming from this place of deep, deep love. Wow, look how different we are. How it's worked for 23 years. I come in this very deep feeling place. Koshin comes in this very deep place of collect and also feeling that Koshin has this depth of feelings too. Not as deep as mine, you understand, but

• 1:04:42Speaker 05

  unbelievable.

• 1:04:45Speaker 03

  But I think first about playing and being able to play in the sandpit together and also knowing when that sandpit turns to shit and being able to stay in that too. It's like, yeah.

• 1:04:54Speaker 05

  To be uncomfortable together. Yeah. I'd be like, yeah, that's another huge.

• 1:04:59Speaker 04

  It's a big one.

• 1:05:00Speaker 03

  Huge, huge dump, huge, huge dump.

• 1:05:02Speaker 05

  To know, but to be willing to be uncomfortable together and awkward together is to me another mark of love. Like, wow, this is so uncomfortable. We don't know where it's going. And we're both feeling awkward and uncomfortable. And how do we care for one another?

• 1:05:23Speaker 03

  And every single morning before you leave the house, I love you.

• 1:05:27Speaker 05

  I never leave the house. This is another important thing. I learned actually in the emergency department. I never leave the house without holding his face and telling him how much I love him. Because I'm very aware.

• 1:05:44Speaker 05

  From working in the emergency department, how many people, loved ones or friends would come in and be like, I can't believe the last conversation we had.

• 1:05:52Speaker 05

  Or like they were leaving the house this morning. I was like, fuck off. Or like whatever that is, they just weren't caring for each other. So I always appreciating that it might be our last time. So I always want to leave the house while letting him know exactly how I feel. So I feel like actually that's a pretty awesome relationship thing. So if you want a relationship hack, you know, to me is like, have you told the person that you love exactly how you love them today? Doesn't matter.

• 1:06:28Speaker 04

  Do you do the same, Chodo?

• 1:06:36Speaker 03

  Not as willingly, should we say, or as easily as I should concur it. I mean, you know, again, I didn't grow up with that language. You know, I wasn't raised that kind of that language of I love you and I'm going to miss you and hurry home or anything like that. So it is a, uh,

• 1:06:56Speaker 03

  it's a task sometimes, but I do.

• 1:07:01Speaker 03

  Do I say it enough? Not enough, but I do say.

• 1:07:04Speaker 05

  You could use a little work.

• 1:07:05Speaker 03

  I could use a little.

• 1:07:05Speaker 05

  You're perfect and complete, lacking nothing, and you could use a little work.

• 1:07:12Speaker 05

  As Chen Raisin, he says, you know, like, we all can, but the reality is me too.

• 1:07:20Dan Harris?

  Well, I really relate to Chodo on this one.

• 1:07:24Speaker 04

  No.

• 1:07:25Dan Harris?

  I know, I know it's gonna surprise you, Bianca. I, this is my term I'll use about myself is like, I bump up against a wall of like stinginess. You know, I don't want to fucking do it, right? Especially if I feel like I'm supposed to. There was a New Yorker cartoon where the wife says to the husband, or might have been in reverse, the husband saying it to the wife.

• 1:07:51Dan Harris?

  That one of the people in the panel says, I love you. And the other person says, stop threatening me. Which I fucking love.

• 1:07:59Speaker 03

  I love that. That's it for me.

• 1:08:04Dan Harris?

  You wanted to come back to operating manual, Bianca?

• 1:08:06Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:08:07Speaker 04

  Yeah, I think that's a really important hack. And this is built into what you were saying, but you have to know what your operating manual is. And I think that takes work, the work you're talking about, and that takes very individual work. Your partner is not there to sort of receive your trauma and help you figure it out. You know, it took a long time for me to understand in a way that that your partner can't can't be everything for you. It shouldn't be everything for you. And you have to figure out this shit on your own, but also

• 1:08:46Speaker 04

  not to sort of indulge it so much that you aren't open to change and growth. And one of the things that I was really attracted to early on that continues, even if it's really not easy, is that because of our differences, really, just in how, you know, just in our in our affect, a lot of the times, it does force me to pause and look at what I'm feeling and what I'm expecting.

• 1:09:19Speaker 04

  Or, you know, he'll have expectations of me that, you know what, maybe in my dreams, my better self would actually be like that. So what could feel like an unfair request, if I stop and think about it, like, I kind of want to be like that. So it does push me to leave some of my shit behind. So the operating manual has to be informed, but flexible. And I think that's really important because there's so much you can get out of your partner in terms of feeding back on your own happiness, I guess, as an individual.

• 1:09:54Dan Harris?

  Yeah, Michael Vincent Miller talks a lot about how romantic relationships are like the crucible for growth. And he's got this really incisive critique of the modern romantic industrial complex that sells this idea that, as he says, we're going to go from one enchanted evening to happily ever after. And we talk about falling in love as if it's simply a matter of gravity. Nobody's talking about the work that is involved here. And that work that Miller emphasizes, I think, so skillfully is like, and I really like this reframing, is there's a lot for you in this work. If you're looking to get

• 1:10:35Dan Harris?

  happier, get stronger, get healthier, there's an opportunity right there in your relationship.

• 1:10:40Speaker 05

  Yeah, both have to be willing because we know plenty of relationships where one partner is willing and one of them isn't. And it's so easy to fall into complacency also. And so I think the shared willingness and the shared value, I just feel like we can't underscore that enough, like how critical that is, like to not only just say like, oh yeah, I'm into growing, but this is how I'd like to grow now, right? And how I want to continue to grow and open up. So I just feel like that is so important and vital.

• 1:11:21Speaker 05

  The shared vitality individually and as a couple is a beautiful and challenging and adventurous thing.

• 1:11:32Speaker 03

  I'm just thinking of our age difference, almost 20 years apart almost, and the work that comes more easily, I would think, to caution than it does to me being.

• 1:11:51Speaker 03

  Twenty years older and like, you know, maybe more set in my ways and less open to

• 1:11:58Speaker 03

  new ways, looking at things. And that's not to say that it's healthy or correct or in any way, but it's just, it's also one of those things where I, where I can be really

• 1:12:09Speaker 05

  Communion.

• 1:12:10Speaker 03

  Communionally. It's like, you know, it comes with age, you know, you get to be a certain age, you're going to be a communion.

• 1:12:15Speaker 05

  Maybe you can use age as an excuse.

• 1:12:17Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:12:21Speaker 05

  Because you also can age and keep growing. So.

• 1:12:24Speaker 03

  I'm not saying I can.

• 1:12:25Speaker 05

  Just say.

• 1:12:27Speaker 03

  Not saying I can. I'm not saying I'm not. It takes a little more time to like accrue us.

• 1:12:34Speaker 05

  Good for you.

• 1:12:34Speaker 03

  Good for me. It's good for you.

• 1:12:36Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:12:36Speaker 03

  It's like, it's good.

• 1:12:40Speaker 04

  It's good for us, for sure.

• 1:12:41Speaker 03

  Sometimes it's so funny because I reverse the role. Sometimes I'm the best father, you know, it's like, it's like his daddy. And other times I'm like, he's the best, he's like, he's like the best daddy, you know, it's like, daddy's such a gay thing. Best father.

• 1:12:57Speaker 03

  We are homosexual. We are homosexuals.

• 1:13:00Dan Harris?

  Wait a minute, you guys are gay?

• 1:13:03Speaker 03

  You didn't know? Are you gay?

• 1:13:05Speaker 05

  Not like a coming out episode.

• 1:13:08Dan Harris?

  I know, I know.

• 1:13:10Speaker 03

  Yes, that is it. I think of, yeah, yeah.

• 1:13:14Speaker 05

  Daddy.

• 1:13:18Speaker 04

  I will not call you daddy, Dan, just so you know.

• 1:13:20Speaker 03

  No, it wouldn't work if you called me daddy. I have to call him daddy.

• 1:13:25Speaker 03

  Daddy dad. Debbie, I can't even call him daddy dad.

• 1:13:30Speaker 03

  Can daddy? Daddy dad? No, it's not working.

• 1:13:32Speaker 04

  Like not daddy?

• 1:13:33Speaker 03

  It's not landing. Not landing. No.

• 1:13:35Speaker 04

  No.

• 1:13:36Dan Harris?

  First time Alexander called me daddy, it was like, oh, that felt like closer to my real name than Dan.

• 1:13:43Speaker 03

  Oh, really?

• 1:13:43Dan Harris?

  Like, oh, yeah, that's who I am.

• 1:13:45Speaker 03

  Wow. Nice.

• 1:13:50Speaker 03

  What's happening for the time I called you daddy?

• 1:13:52Dan Harris?

  Might have been a little less wholesome, but yeah, beautiful, beautiful nonetheless.

• 1:14:00Speaker 03

  It was wholesome, don't be rude.

• 1:14:04Speaker 03

  When we were in restaurants, I was thinking that my dad is picking up the check.

• 1:14:14Dan Harris?

  Okay, I'll replace the word wholesome with G rated instead of R rated.

• 1:14:20Dan Harris?

  This has been amazing.

• 1:14:23Dan Harris?

  It feels complete to me, but I do want to just check with the three of you that whether there's something you wanted to talk about that we haven't had a chance to hit.

• 1:14:32Speaker 03

  No, I think it's

• 1:14:34Speaker 04

  I mean, I feel like there could always be a part two, three, four, five, six.

• 1:14:38Dan Harris?

  And there will be.

• 1:14:38Speaker 04

  It just feels like an ongoing conversation.

• 1:14:41Dan Harris?

  Yes.

• 1:14:42Speaker 03

  We're in a total curmudgeon.

• 1:14:45Dan Harris?

  One final, final question here is, and I'll direct it to you, Koshin, but you can take it if you want. Chodo is just can you remind everybody about all the amazing things that the New York Zen Center for Contemplative Care does in the world in case they want to learn more about you guys and also maybe throw in the books that you've written.

• 1:15:05Speaker 05

  So

• 1:15:07Speaker 05

  New York Zen Center for Contemplative Care, we do three main things. One of them is we have Zen practice for anyone who's interested in Zen practice. We have sitting every day and then retreats and half day retreats once a month. As well as two times a year, we have a 90 day practice period. So to deepen our practice, so everyone is welcome. The second thing we have our education program. So we have a certificate and so does Zen Buddhist studies as well as a master's program. And along with the program that we've talked about, which is foundations and contemplative care,

• 1:15:46Speaker 05

  which is really about bringing your values and what you're doing together through studying together and serving at the bedside. And the last kind of large education program. Program we have is called the Contemplative Medicine Fellowship, and we're delighted to be with some of our shared friends and faculty here, which is for any physicians, nurse practitioners, or physician assistants, who want to spend a year of really learning what it means to be in fellowship together, to really redefine and reclaim what medicine is, and to use contemplation to actually be part of the medicine to how we engage and lead and work with our resilience.

• 1:16:31Speaker 05

  And then we also do care programs. So through our students, offering care at the bedside, as well as chodo leads bereavement support, both in groups and individually. And we also companion people through the advent of a serious diagnosis, through their dying process and caring for their loved ones afterwards in bereavement. So it's a beautiful opportunity, and our website is called zencare.org. And I do have edited a book that many people find very helpful, called Awake at the Bedside: Contemplative Teachings on Palliative and End-of-Life Care,

• 1:17:13Speaker 05

  which Mr. Campbell has a beautiful essay in also. And there are two other books. One is called Full Hearted: Slow Down, Help Out, Wake Up, which is about living an ethical life and untangled walking the path of clarity, courage, and compassion, which is really about how do we untangle our suffering through relationship, like what we've been talking about here. And it's through Shakyamuni Buddha's, historical Buddha's, teaching of the four nobilities of suffering, the causes of suffering, how we can change and the path itself. So they're good resources.

• 1:17:54Speaker 05

  And the main thing is to live our lives fully and care for one another.

• 1:18:03Dan Harris?

  Just a double click on, I just want to say that everybody should check out the New York Zen Center, incredible resources there. And I also highly recommend all of Koshin's books. And I really recommend Chodo's book, even though it's not out yet.

• 1:18:18Speaker 03

  Two working titles, Dan.

• 1:18:20Dan Harris?

  You do? What are, blame on me. I know one of them. You will never amount to anything in this life.

• 1:18:25Speaker 03

  You'll achieve nothing in this life.

• 1:18:27Dan Harris?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:27Speaker 03

  And the next one is you die more than once. About that.

• 1:18:33Speaker 03

  Zen.

• 1:18:34Dan Harris?

  I like the both. I would vote for the first one, but I mean, I buy either of those books.

• 1:18:38Speaker 03

  You die more than once, Zen and the Art of Survival, something like that.

• 1:18:41Dan Harris?

  Hmm. I like that.

• 1:18:43Speaker 03

  Yeah. Because, yeah. You will achieve nothing in this life is pretty life. I like that though. Well, the other one I must remember was disco, drugs, dancing and drama, or something like that. Disco drugs, disco drugs, drama and drama.

• 1:18:59Speaker 04

  That'll sell.

• 1:19:03Dan Harris?

  Thank you all for doing this. Love you guys.

• 1:19:05Speaker 03

  Thank you. Love you, love you, love you.

• 1:19:06Speaker 04

  Thank you guys. Love you.

• 1:19:08Speaker 03

  And let's not forget our double date in real life.

• 1:19:14Dan Harris?

  Thanks again to Koshin and Chodo. Love talking to those guys. There were a few past episodes of this show that were either referenced directly or implicitly during this conversation. I just want to let you know that I will drop some links in the show notes if you want to check them out, including an interview with Dr. Richard Schwartz, the originator of IFS, my past interviews with Koshin, past interviews with Jerry Colonna, Dr. Bruce Perry, and Evelyn Tribole. If you're a subscriber at DanHarris.com, you will have already received a cheat sheet of today's episode, which sums up all of the key takeaways and includes a full transcript. Subscribers also get live AMAs with me and much more. So come check it out. Before I go, I want to thank everybody who worked so hard on this show. Our producers are Tara Anderson, Caroline Keenan, and Eleanor

• 1:19:59Dan Harris?

  Vasili. Our recording and engineering is handled by the great folks over at Podpeople. Lauren Smith is our production manager. Marissa Schneiderman is our senior producer. DJ Cashmere is our executive producer. And Nick Thorburn of the band Islands wrote our theme.

• 1:20:21Speaker 01

  OnDeck is built to back small businesses like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team, or bridging cash flow gaps, OnDeck's loans up to $400,000 help make it happen fast. Rated A+ by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of 5-star TrustPilot reviews, OnDeck delivers funding you can count on. Apply in minutes at ondeck.com. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.