The ingredients for a 'nice life'

If chasing a "perfect" life feels exhausting, try for a nice life instead, says Rachel Wilkerson Miller. In her upcoming book, The Nice Life: How to Elevate the Everyday and Find Joy in What You Have, Miller argues that a nice life means noticing beauty, being open to curiosity, seeking community and more. Life Kit host Marielle Segarra spoke to Miller at The WBUR Festival in Boston about honing your personal definition of a nice life and playing an active role in shaping it. Follow us on Instagram: @nprlifekit https://www.instagram.com/nprlifekit/?hl=en Sign up for our newsletter here. https://www.npr.org/newsletter/life-kit Have an episode idea or feedback you want to share? Email us at [email protected] mailto:[email protected] Support the show and listen to it sponsor-free by signing up for Life Kit+ at plus.npr.org/lifekit http://plus.npr.org/lifekit See pcm.adswizz.com https://pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for sponsorship and to manage your podcast sponsorship preferences. NPR Privacy Policy https://www.npr.org/about-npr/179878450/privacy-policy

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:22Speaker 01

  A nice life is that little something extra. It's I experienced joy and pleasure, and I made those things for myself. I had agency and I made choices that allowed me to feel that little bit of sparkle, that little bit of like twinkle in your eye, that spring in your step, a little mischief.

• 0:44Marielle Segarra?

  You're listening to Life Kit. I'm Mary El Segarra. We did a live taping recently at WBUR Fest, a festival hosted by Boston NPR station WBUR. Fun fact, also where I started out as a public radio intern. The topic was how to have a nice life. And our guest was Rachel Wilkerson Miller, who's a senior editor at Vox and has a book coming out called The Nice Life: How to Elevate the Everyday and Find Joy in What You Have.

• 1:14Marielle Segarra?

  Yeah, I think there's a bit of elegance in a nice life. But again, not when we say elegance, I think we often would think of spending a lot of money. But we've talked about this. Can you buy your way to a nice life?

• 1:27Speaker 01

  Absolutely not. And that, to me, is central. I say in the book, it's about punching above your weight without living above your means. It's about finding ways to elevate, to bring a little something extra that often doesn't cost money. Like, it could be a meaningful conversation with a friend or a neighbor. It could be something you thrifted or got at a garage sale or found in the garbage that brings you a lot of joy. It could be something that you make yourself and use very inexpensive materials, or again, something you found in the recycling bin. I think people sort of know those things when they see them. But so much of it goes back to creativity, art, and connection with other people.

• 2:03Marielle Segarra?

  On this episode of Life Kit, you'll hear that conversation. We talk about art and beauty, curiosity, falcons, Ulysses S. Grant, and much more.

• 2:21Marielle Segarra?

  In the book, you lay out qualities to pursue if you are trying to cultivate a nice life, and one of those is beauty. Can you talk about what that means to you?

• 2:31Speaker 01

  So I mentioned art is a huge part of this, and I think beauty can exist in a lot of different ways. It could be a beautiful building, or architecture, or the face of somebody you care about, or a flower. I think just starting to look for it and really orienting yourself toward it is so exciting and thrilling. And again, it helps remind you that, oh, these things exist in all these different places. It's not necessarily about something that is expensive or that I'm seeing on Instagram that I want to buy. It can be so much simpler than that, and it's so often human made. And I think really starting to look for art in my everyday life was a really transformative experience, because I used to think of art as something that I went out and did. And I still do that. I still go to shows, and I go to museums, and I love those experiences.

• 3:16Speaker 01

  But there's art everywhere, and I think once you start to notice it, it's so satisfying and reassuring and kind of thrilling. And that's a really easy example of how to just find a little bit of beauty in your everyday life.

• 3:29Marielle Segarra?

  Well, let's talk about the consumer aspect of it, because I feel like when you are seeking especially beauty in your space, you can end up thinking that means I have to buy all this stuff. And you can also sort of be stealing from your own joy, because you're working towards some future version of you and your home, for instance, where everything's going to be perfect and look just like a magazine. And that, to me, seems like the opposite of a nice life. I wonder what your advice is for folks who find themselves in that spiral, aka me.

• 4:05Speaker 01

  Well, I should say for starters, like, I am not a minimalist, so I understand this tension very well. And I think one thing I've had to learn over the years is what stuff will actually make me happy or mean something to me, and what stuff I will regret kind of immediately, or it'll end up in a landfill. And there was one in my twenties where I was like, I can't just keep buying dresses. From Forever 21, this is wasteful and bad. And I really had to cut myself off and that forced me to slow down. And it was like, if I'm going to buy something, I'm going to have to wear this for a long time. So I need to take good care of it. I need to feel relatively confident I will continue to wear it for a while. Even if it's Forever 21, even if it's from a thrift store and it was originally from Forever 21,

• 4:48Speaker 01

  like, how can I treat it like it matters? Because I think there's this mindset of like, oh, buy nicer things, but buy less of them. And like, sure, but if you can't afford to buy nicer things, you might still need to try to buy less and treat it well. And I think that that mindset really helped me hone what I like for starters. I think so much of the, I'm buying this and why did I buy this? Comes from not really knowing yourself or knowing your intentions. So I think just getting in the habit of like, taking this a second to ask yourself, what does this mean to me? And I think with your home in particular, it's very easy to feel sort of influenced by what you're seeing online in a given moment. That doesn't really make for a home that like feels cozy or that you actually want to be in. I don't know.

• 5:33Speaker 01

  Sometimes I watch these home tours of celebrities and I'm just like, where's your stuff?

• 5:37Marielle Segarra?

  Yeah.

• 5:37Speaker 01

  Like, where's your stuff? Because it doesn't feel like they chose it. And I think that's the big thing is you choosing something.

• 5:52Marielle Segarra?

  All right, y'all. Takeaway one, if you want to have a nice life, seek beauty wherever you can. That doesn't necessarily mean buying anything. Look around you. What did you see today that was beautiful? When we come back, more from Rachel about how to cultivate the skill of noticing.

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• 7:40Marielle Segarra?

  A lot of this goes back to the art of noticing. At Life Kit, we talk about this a lot. We talk about basically mindfulness techniques that help you stay present and help you just live a happier life, I would say. Live a life where you're seeing what's in front of you. And part of that is about putting down your phone so that you can notice things and leaving space to notice.

• 8:04Speaker 01

  All of this is a way of stepping outside of yourself, and I think that's really important. I think especially if you're on your phone a lot or only talking to your partner or a couple coworkers or whoever, you forget there's a big world out there. We're going to get through this. It's going to be OK. And I think that perspective and feeling a little small is helpful. One of the things I like about art and museums is it's like, oh, my God, 300 years ago, people were concerned about the same things. They were concerned about war and losing a loved one and grieving, but they were also, they loved their pet and they wanted to, you know, remember this beautiful peach. And I think just seeing that really helps me when I'm struggling to just step outside of myself and to sort of get that perspective that can be hard day to day.

• 8:47Marielle Segarra?

  Yeah, I think it's a good day to day practice, and it's also a good break glass in case of emergency. Like, you are really...

• 8:57Marielle Segarra?

  pissed off and turning my mind to beauty and and just like noticing the present can help a lot with I think anxiety and also with nerves in general like I was playing softball the other day and a falcon came and landed on the fence of the dugout I'd never seen one before they were are so beautiful and like everyone sort of turned and looked at the falcon for you know a minute because the softball game could pause it's just a rec league softball game but it was this huge opportunity to see this gorgeous bird which gets to another point in your book about curiosity.

• 9:37Speaker 01

  I love this so I interviewed an awe researcher for this book who is incredible he researches awe as a way of being resilient.

• 9:45Marielle Segarra?

  And awe is like what is how can you define awe?

• 9:48Speaker 01

  You can describe it as something that moves you that like forces you to accommodate a new way of thinking and he and I talked about like that's like big awe that's standing in front of the grand canyon and feeling so moved and a little afraid but there's also little awe which you can't experience the grand canyon every day like those are going to be rare moments throughout your life but little awe might be just seeing a flower or seeing a falcon.

• 10:12Marielle Segarra?

  Yeah.

• 10:13Speaker 01

  These moments that are not so transformative but that they do pull you out of your own head and help you in the present moment spark curiosity and one of the things that he was saying is that awe on its own is great but the experience of talking about or experiencing awe with somebody else is even better so just you sharing this story right now is like a great way of connecting because now I'm learning something about you and like we can like sort of share in this together that's a perfect encapsulation of the sort of curiosity and and moments that to me make up a nice life.

• 10:45Marielle Segarra?

  Yeah, I think sometimes it's about remembering that you have agency in a lot of situations that you might not think like places where we're on autopilot you're in the middle of a softball game or you're in the middle of a meeting or the middle of a doctor's appointment or someplace where you're not supposed to stop and you ask a question someplace where you're not supposed to stop and notice something. Funny or beautiful, but we actually have in a lot of situations, agency to stop and, and do that. And people will appreciate it more than you might think.

• 11:16Speaker 01

  I think that's the big thing is that people actually welcome it. And again, it's that moment of reaching out and sort of offering an opportunity for connection. People are too afraid to ask for it. And so you can give somebody the gift of going first. The sharing involved in that, I find so meaningful and uplifting and important.

• 11:37Marielle Segarra?

  All right. Takeaway two. Another element of a nice life, according to Rachel, is curiosity.

• 11:47Marielle Segarra?

  What is something that you've become really curious about lately?

• 11:51Speaker 01

  Well, I've been reading a book the past week, essentially about the building I live in and the type of building I live in. It's a former limited equity co-op, which is a very specific type of housing in New York City. So I've been reading about the history of that and how this building and other ones like it were built. So that is a very close to home version of it. That was also inspired, I live near the Tenement Museum. So doing a tour there was really interesting and kind of the connection between all of these things. So I would say, I'm very curious about my neighborhood and it's been a pleasure to learn more about the place I live and to see the places I go or live mentioned in a book and to be able to read the history of it is really thrilling. So that's just a cool opportunity. But I think looking for curiosity close to home is a great place to start.

• 12:36Marielle Segarra?

  I have been getting really into the presidents lately.

• 12:39Speaker 01

  Oh, that's a good one.

• 12:40Marielle Segarra?

  There are certain presidents that I'm learning about. And now I'm getting into the ones that we weren't taught so much about in school, like Ulysses S. Grant, who is so interesting.

• 12:50Speaker 01

  I'm guilty of late night. My partner falls asleep and I'm just on Wikipedia trying to answer a question.

• 12:55Marielle Segarra?

  Yeah.

• 12:55Speaker 01

  And I think you might be a similar type of person. And I think just starting with the question of like, I want to know more about that. I don't know. I don't need to explain myself. I just like to know more and following it as far as it takes you is such a pleasure. And it's so nice to just, again, I'm seeking this out. Isn't this interesting? What can it tell me about the world we live in or myself? Or just be entertaining. And it's such a delight. Anything that can connect you to other people throughout history or other people right now, but just something that reminds you, this feeling I'm having or this experience that I'm having is not uniquely mine. And I look at that as a good thing, whether it's a good feeling or a bad feeling. I think it's important to remember that somebody else has felt it before.

• 13:39Speaker 01

  That makes me feel better. It makes me feel more connected to people. It makes me feel more empathetic. So I think that is one of the great things about art is that it's this tangible proof that somebody felt this way before. And curiosity is what draws you to it in this moment.

• 13:55Marielle Segarra?

  Yeah, I like to think of curiosity as adding texture to my day, adding color.

• 14:01Speaker 01

  100%. And one of the researchers I spoke to for the book, who researches curiosity, made the point that we often think of it as Wikipedia rabbit holes, but curiosity can also just be asking another person about their life or their experiences. And so you don't necessarily have to do it in that way if that's not how you want to, or whatever the case may be. Like, you can satisfy your curiosity by just talking to somebody. And I think that's a really good reminder that there are interesting people and experiences all around us all the time. And you could think about aging by reading this book, but you could also talk to a family member or a neighbor or a coworker. Like, there's so many ways to do curiosity. And I think just remembering other people are a great way to do it as well was one of the lessons I took away from this.

• 14:49Marielle Segarra?

  When we're back, I read some questions from the audience about how community and values fit into a nice life.

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• 15:40Speaker 05

  In the much talked about new movie, Wicker, Olivia Colman plays a woman who commissions a husband literally made of wicker. Yes, wicker. We'll tell you why the silly and bawdy new movie is also a nice cozy fall watch. Listen to Pop Culture Happy Hour via the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 16:01Marielle Segarra?

  We actually have a couple of questions here about the nice life and community. You know, in this age where a lot of people are lonely, what advice do you have for forging connections?

• 16:13Speaker 01

  I think it starts with just deepening the relationships that you do have. Like, sometimes people feel like, oh, we have a connection. I think this could be something more, but they feel a little too shy to take that step further. And I think that's the part where I'm like, just give yourself permission to do that. You have to sometimes be willing to invite other people. And it won't always work out. Not everyone will be your person. But I think the more that you practice that, the less scary it feels and the easier it is. And you can just get better at striking up a conversation and realizing that the person on the other side will probably be very excited about it. And very rarely will they be rude or mean. And if they are, it will be fine.

• 16:54Marielle Segarra?

  Takeaway three, as Rachel says in her book, a nice life is a shared life, one in which you forge authentic connections with interesting people and move through the world with generosity.

• 17:09Marielle Segarra?

  So this is a really interesting question. It says, some of the traits you describe for having a nice life sound women coded. Do you think there's a gendered element to a nice life? And do men achieve it differently?

• 17:21Speaker 01

  That's a good question. I would say that I would describe my interests as very women coded, and they always have been. And I've never really apologized for that because to me, these are inherently good things and everyone should pursue them. I hope that more men feel comfortable pursuing these things if they feel nice to them. And again, beauty can be defined however you want it to be. Curiosity can lead you wherever it leads you. It should be sort of this authentic experience. But I would hate for people To deprive themselves of art and connection with other people and good food and joy and play because they feel like it competes with their version of what their gender should be.

• 18:01Speaker 01

  Like honestly, that idea bums me out so much. So that I, I hope that if men don't feel comfortable with this right now, that they stop and think like, there's, there's space for you here. And even if it feels a little hard at first, I think once you start to do it, it's such an immediate gratification that you kind of stop thinking about that stuff.

• 18:21Marielle Segarra?

  I mean, I think some of the interests I expressed or the examples I gave are sort of masculine coded. I was out playing softball, saw a falcon. I'm, I'm learning about Ulysses S. Grant.

• 18:34Speaker 01

  Very true.

• 18:35Marielle Segarra?

  Uh, there's a lot for you here, whoever asked that question.

• 18:39Speaker 01

  I think it's the vulnerability and the community piece that makes it harder. But again, people really want to connect. They really want to make friends. They're hoping somebody will offer that. And so again, if that's what you want, just reach out. Like again, there will, there will be somebody there who's excited to hear from you.

• 18:56Marielle Segarra?

  I think there's an element here of deciding what your values are and what makes a nice life for you. A lot of the ones that you laid out feel universal, you know, um, whether it's about connection and community or art and curiosity and beauty, but there might be others too. Service, for instance, is another one or.

• 19:17Speaker 01

  Family could be another one. Like there's so many ways to define your nice life. And I think I tried to pick things that felt really universal across time and space. But I think this is really about making decisions that matter to you that with intention and you can't do that if you don't know what matters to you. So taking a step back and saying, what is important to me? What do I want to be able to say that I've done in five years or 10 years? What do I want to experience? Will take you very far. So that is a really good place to start and help you make decisions around how you want to live your life.

• 19:50Marielle Segarra?

  All right, everybody. Thank you so much.

• 19:53Speaker 01

  Thanks, Rachel.

• 19:54Marielle Segarra?

  Thank you.

• 20:03Marielle Segarra?

  OK, y'all, it's time for a recap. Takeaway one: if you want to have a nice life, seek beauty. That doesn't necessarily mean buying anything. Look around you. What did you see today that was beautiful? Allow yourself to experience awe when you look at a bird, or a flower, or an architectural marvel, or a really old book. Takeaway two: another element of a nice life, according to Rachel, is curiosity. When you notice something beautiful, or interesting, or different in your day-to-day life, and you fall down the rabbit hole a little bit, you can satisfy your curiosity at the library, or on Wikipedia, or by watching historical documentaries, or just by learning about other people, asking them questions.

• 20:45Marielle Segarra?

  Takeaway three, as Rachel says in her book, "A nice life is a shared life." So get to know other people. Build community. And remember, these are just a starting point. Think about your own values, and what'll make your life feel special, a little sparkly, and a little extra.

• 21:04Marielle Segarra?

  All right, that's our show. If Life Kit is part of your weekly ritual, make it official on the NPR app. You'll hear about every episode the moment it's ready. Just turn on notifications, and we'll handle the rest. See you there. Download the NPR app today. This episode of Life Kit was produced by Margaret Serino. Our digital editor is Malika Gharib, and our visuals editor is CJ Riekele. Lauren Gonzalez is our executive producer, and Megan Cain is our senior supervising editor. Our production team also includes Andy Tagel, Claire Marie Schneider, and Sylvie Douglas. Engineering support comes from Peter Elena. Special thanks to Stephen Davy, Eva Rosenberg, and Ben Brock Johnson at WBUR. I'm Marielle Segarra. Thanks for listening.

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