Pope of Math and Dark Magic

Continuing the theme of exploring Papal history, we discuss Gerbert of Aurillac, AKA Pope Sylvester II, who's scientific and mathmatical mind lead him to the highest seat of Catholic power. But after his death, detractors and enemies would spin his story into one of dark arts and deals with the devil. Support Noble Blood: — Bonus episodes, stickers, and scripts on Patreon https://www.patreon.com/noblebloodtales — Order Dana's book, 'Anatomy: A Love Story https://us.macmillan.com/books/9781250840578/anatomyalovestory' and its sequel 'Immortality: A Love Story https://us.macmillan.com/books/9781250861016/immortalityalovestory' See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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• 0:00Dana Schwartz?

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.

• 0:08Speaker 01

  Every small business owner has that one moment that could have broken them, but remarkably, it didn't. Hi, I'm Kathleen Griffith, co-host of The Unshakeables, along with Stevie Barron, CEO of Chase for Business. We have more incredible stories of overcoming the impossible still to come in season three. Listen to The Unshakeables wherever you get your podcasts and learn more at chase.com/podcast. JPMorgan Chase Bank, N.A., member FDIC. Copyright 2026 JPMorgan Chase and Company.

• 0:44Dana Schwartz?

  Welcome to Noble Blood, a production of iHeart Radio and Grim and Mild from Aaron Mankey. Listener discretion advised.

• 0:55Dana Schwartz?

  Shall I die before I sing a mass in Jerusalem? That was the key question that Gerbert of Orak asked to his unnervingly stoic companion. Gerbert was one of the most accomplished scholars of his age, a teacher of emperors and a master of sciences. Yet, he was never quite satisfied. His curiosity, ambition, and hubris had pushed him to seek power and wealth through the dark arts. And in honing his sinister skills, he had built a statue head that could

• 1:38Dana Schwartz?

  speak. This metallic automaton was magically bound to tell the truth and could predict the future. But it only responded when asked questions and only replied either yes or no. For instance, one of Gerbert's first inquiries was, "Will I be pope?" His unholy statue prophet said, "Yes."

• 2:07Dana Schwartz?

  All of that is, of course, according to legend, or rather, a long history of embellished stories that sought to explain and/or tarnish the unique life and unprecedented rise of a brilliant French clergyman across the 10th century and start of the 2nd millennium. In some versions of that story, Gerbert consulted a wily demon instead of a mechanical oracle. Some chroniclers insisted it was a female demon named Meridiana. Others recounted how Gerbert additionally made a pact with the devil and was perhaps even the Antichrist himself.

• 2:52Dana Schwartz?

  Juicy stuff. Amid all of these vivid rumors, though, several evidence-backed details have endured. As Gerbert's own letters and numerous contemporary accounts from his time showed, Gerbert was indeed motivated by a passion for knowledge. He continually expanded his scientific expertise, and his ambitions did very much push him to seek increasingly high posts. Per his statue-head's alleged prediction, Gerbert did eventually become Pope, choosing the name Sylvester II.

• 3:34Dana Schwartz?

  Yet, in summiting the Catholic Church's hierarchical mountain, he and his scientific contributions faced mounting disdain and danger. Modern historians disagree with many of their centuries-earlier counterparts about whether Gerbert's ultimate undoing was the result of a "complex web of ideological and geopolitical factors" or punishment for a life of "supposed diabolical dealings." But just about every account seems to agree that one thing of vital importance was, in the words of the classic real estate adage,

• 4:19Dana Schwartz?

  "location, location, location."

• 4:22Dana Schwartz?

  As the myth goes, Gerbert asked his mythical statue head that crucial question: If he would die before singing Mass in Jerusalem? The head replied: No. Easy then. Gerbert would live as long as he could put off traveling to the ancient city. But in avoiding Jerusalem, Gerbert apparently overlooked a crucial wrinkle. In Rome, there was a church commonly called Jerusalem. And by giving Mass there on May 3, 1003, in both legend and reality, he finally sealed his fate. Gotta pay attention to the fine print.

• 5:07Dana Schwartz?

  I'm Dana Schwartz, and this is Noble Blood. In 967, Gerbert made a journey that would change his life. The transition from a relatively small monastery in the Kingdom of France to the humming metropolis of Barcelona would have been enticing to any curious mind. For Gerbert, then a young opportunistic monk with a voracious appetite for knowledge, Spain was basically an all-you-can-learn buffet. Gerbert was especially interested in the four traditional liberal arts known as the

• 5:50Dana Schwartz?

  quadrivium: arithmetic, geometry, music, and astronomy. Along the border of the Muslim-ruled region of the Iberian Peninsula known as Al-Andalus, Gerbert found scholarly communities that not only prized learning in those areas, but also reportedly showed tremendous levels of tolerance and collaboration between Muslim, Christian, and Jewish intellectuals.

• 6:19Dana Schwartz?

  Gerbert’s exact whereabouts during his three years in Spain have sparked a fair amount of politically-fueled controversy among historians of different eras. However, it is no stretch to say that regardless of whether Gerbert mostly stayed in Barcelona and at the Santa Maria de Repole monastery, or whether he crossed the border into Islamic Spain, he absorbed significant wisdom and expertise that initially came from Muslim scholars and Arabic educational centers. For instance, the Royal Library in Cordoba, the then-capital of El-Endalus, was said to house between 40,000 and 400,000 books,

• 7:04Dana Schwartz?

  many of which were translated from Persian, Indian, Greek, and African languages. And many of those books had purportedly come from an acclaimed public academy in Baghdad, known as the House of Wisdom. So naturally, given Gerbert’s well-documented love of reading and frequent letters sent requesting tomes on topics of interest, Gerbert encountered plenty of relevant texts and well-informed scholars whose ideas had originated or flourished in the spirited, incubating environment of Spain’s Islamic Caliphate, whether or not he physically learned there himself or not.

• 7:50Dana Schwartz?

  Gerbert left for Rome in 970 and used his Spanish education to distinguish himself as a teacher and scientist. In fact, he impressed the Holy Roman Emperor Otto I so much that the ruler hired Gerbert to tutor his son, Otto II. Gerbert went on to run a cathedral school in Rime near Paris, and he became an extremely popular educator.

• 8:21Dana Schwartz?

  Accounts from many of Gerbert's colleagues and proteges were so glowing that it's tempting to picture him as both an esteemed erudite math professor and a hip, loves-to-sit-on-his-chair-backwards-youth-pastor. To inspire students, Gerbert reportedly infused lessons with everything from rousing debates with famed philosophers to explanations of fractions that involved showing how finger placement on a simple instrument affected a string's vibrations. While teaching, Gerbert also continued his own research.

• 9:02Dana Schwartz?

  It would take too long to cover all of his scientific achievements, so here are some highlights. Gerbert arguably became Christian Europe's most famed mathematician during his lifetime. He did that not so much by coming up with entirely original ideas, but by applying concepts in resourceful ways. For example, Gerbert became widely known for embracing Arabic numerals and showcasing to Latin Europe how they made arithmetic far easier than Roman numerals. A chief asset in that mission was an upgraded abacus.

• 9:42Dana Schwartz?

  As anyone who's ever tried to add, subtract, multiply, or divide using the ancient Roman system can attest, not to mention any of us who have struggled to merely decode Superbowl numbers, long strings of letters make large figures unwieldy. By simplifying the counting pieces on an abacus, so they each held a single digit from 1 to 9, Gerbert constructed a device that allowed him to perform calculations with jaw-dropping speed. He additionally introduced the concept of zero and would reportedly show off by adding

• 10:25Dana Schwartz?

  and multiplying numbers into the octillions. Some writers and scientists point to that analog calculator as one of the world's first computers.

• 10:39Dana Schwartz?

  In the field of music, Gerbert helped to fine-tune an instrument called a water organ. His experimenting led him to skillfully design a long tube that ingeniously created air pressure by harnessing flowing water, which then allowed the organ's pipes to sound without requiring the strenuous labor of operating bellows. Finally, when it came to astronomy, Gerbert obsessively observed the skies and became exceptionally proficient with several devices. One tool was the armillary sphere, an intricate

• 11:17Dana Schwartz?

  globe with attached rings that charted the paths of planets and stars. In Gerbert's time, the Earth was at the center of this contraption, with other bodies orbiting around it. Despite that inaccurate model, Gerbert was still able to use his customized armillary spheres to closely track the trajectories of stars and engagingly display astronomical concepts to his students. Gerbert's written correspondence also shows that he was hugely interested in using astral observations to calculate time. Rudimentary clocks, like

• 11:58Dana Schwartz?

  sundials, had been around for thousands of years, but Gerbert wanted to be able to more accurately track time by day and night, and to find a more comprehensive model to explain the fluctuations of daylight hours across the seasons. Although none of Gerbert's favored timekeeping devices seem to have survived, references by a prince bishop contemporary point to Gerbert constructing an intricate night clock that likely borrowed features from ancient devices like astrolabes and noctralabes.

• 12:37Dana Schwartz?

  Some modern historians have argued that Gerbert's linking of calculable time with heavenly movements helped spawn the medieval field of mathematical astronomy in Christian Europe. At the very least, given accounts that he wowed kings and noble courts by predicting eclipses, Gerbert must have made quite the party guest. Gerbert’s rising fame created additional employment opportunities, both within the Catholic Church and the highest royal houses. The involved machinations are fairly complicated, but in broad strokes, Gerbert kept up strong

• 13:17Dana Schwartz?

  ties with the Ottoman Dynasty, to the point that he completed something of a Holy Roman hat-trick by eventually mentoring Otto III. Gerbert’s third time educating a royal Otto proved to be quite the charm in terms of his own ecclesiastical career. In 999, Gerbert’s close relationship with the young emperor helped him become Pope. He chose the name Sylvester II, signaling his admiration for Pope Sylvester I, who had advised Emperor Constantine in the 4th century.

• 13:56Dana Schwartz?

  Accordingly, Gerbert hoped to help Otto III reunite Constantinople and Rome into one realm and usher in a new golden age built on law, tolerance, and learning. Unfortunately for Gerbert, and arguably portions of Europe, fate, or universal randomness, or God, or the devil, had other plans. Before delving into Gerbert’s fraught time as Pope and the ensuing macabre legends, it’s worth adding some quick context and clarification regarding a few core elements.

• 14:39Dana Schwartz?

  First, despite later scholars coining erroneous and reductive terms like “the Dark Ages” and “the Enlightenment,” Gerbert did not live in a time of intellectual darkness. Numerous empires and cultures across the globe continually innovated, and while some of the European hubs in which Gerbert lived initially resisted certain concepts, these realms were not wholly overwhelmed by ignorant, superstitious thought. For example, Gerbert’s written correspondence with other academic

• 15:17Dana Schwartz?

  Show that they knew the Earth was round, whereas later supposedly enlightened figures, including a few early humanists, continued to spread theories that Earth was flat. In addition, it can sometimes be difficult to avoid viewing the relationship between religion and science through a modern lens, considering all the periods of fraught history there. But in Gerbert's day, religion and science weren't really thought of as separate fields or subjects supported by warring communities. More often, the opposite was the case. Many who served the Church were also researchers, who sought scientific inquiry as a means

• 16:01Dana Schwartz?

  to reveal and revel in God's work. Finally, though some of the traditions and trappings shown in recent papal news coverage and in films like Conclave were still present in the early thousands, the position of pope was different back then. Those doing the job were tremendously hampered by coups, forced exiles, excommunications, and the presence of the occasional anti-pope's. Numerous popes also simply died soon into their reigns, which obviously was very inconvenient for any of the long-term ambitions they might have had.

• 16:44Dana Schwartz?

  In short, things were nuanced and complex, and so was Gerbert. He sought to foster ties between kingdoms and kept up a vast scholarly network, but he also had his own ego and academic beliefs, and he could get prickly with authority figures. Eventually, he even had to flee Rome when the nobility revolted. Then Emperor Otto III suddenly died, which essentially destroyed Gerbert's hope of uniting East and West to foster a new Golden Age.

• 17:23Dana Schwartz?

  Through this time, Gerbert's uncompromising leadership style and political alignments prompted his enemies to occasionally brand him a "dark sorcerer" or "the Antichrist." That said, it's helpful to bear in mind that for centuries, if not millennia, insults in that vein were commonly tossed at those in power. Interestingly, the most salacious and lasting legends about Gerbert surfaced after his death, and their iterations reveal much about the predilections of their storytellers.

• 18:02Dana Schwartz?

  For example, toward the end of the 11th century, decades after Gerbert's death, a cardinal named Benno wanted to replace the sitting pope who was trying to increase his papal powers. So Cardinal Benno wrote a diatribe alleging that "that pope had been schooled by the dark wizard Gerbert and his disciples." In his writing, Benno explained how Gerbert, who had come from humble peasant beginnings, had found success by making a deal with the devil. Similar notes of elitism and "possible professional jealousy" seem to waft from many other storytellers

• 18:47Dana Schwartz?

  and detractors' accounts that also claim a "diabolical pact" as the only possible explanation for the fame and wisdom that humble-born Gerbert attained. 12th-century English writer Walter Map went further. He leaned into the idea that Gerbert reached a sinful agreement with a beautiful, all-knowing demon named Meridiana. He also asserted that Gerbert successfully repented at the end of his life, thus proffering a parable that tracks with Map's background as a bishop and iterant justice.

• 19:30Dana Schwartz?

  According to some modern historians, Mapp's fanciful retelling of Gerbert's life also fits with Mapp's preference for covering stories with fantastical, romantic, and even satirical elements. Fun fact: Walter Mapp was reportedly one of the first writers in England to record and start to popularize stories of vampires. William of Malmesbury, an English monk and notable historian, possibly added the most vivid detail of all in his 12th-century chronicle of Gerbert's life.

• 20:10Dana Schwartz?

  As some critics have asserted, the style in which he describes Gerbert cavorting around in Spain with beautiful women and Arab wizards sometimes reads more like the folktales in 1001 Nights than that of a well-substantiated biography. William also largely promoted the legend about Gerbert using what he allegedly learned in Muslim Al-Andalus to create his oracle statue head in Rome. Once again, the timing and ideological leanings of these records are significant.

• 20:49Dana Schwartz?

  Following the rising cultural conflicts at the heart of the Great Schism in 1054 and the First Crusade in 1096, William, linking Gerbert's purported sins to knowledge he ostensibly learned from Spain's Islamic caliphate, mirrored a move by many influential Christian figures to decry any wisdom gained from sources outside of Latin Europe. There are also many graphic legends about Gerbert's death. Most begin similarly, with his sins catching up with him once he attended Mass in the Church

• 21:31Dana Schwartz?

  of the Holy Cross of Jerusalem, which again was located in Rome.

• 21:37Dana Schwartz?

  From there, the tall tales begin to branch out. Some claim he fell ill and tried to repent by asking his cardinals to cut off his limbs, tongue, and/or hands, and then to scatter his pieces across the city. Others claim that the devil showed up in the church to personally beat and mutilate Gerbert. One impish iteration specified that the devil gouged out Gerbert's eyeballs so that his demons could play with them. Regardless of these rumored antics, Gerbert was duly buried at the Saint John Lateran Cathedral in Rome.

• 22:21Dana Schwartz?

  Over the next few centuries, though, additional myths abounded, that his marble tomb routinely sweated, and that his bones rattled to foretell the death of successive popes. When it comes to more solidly corroborated historical evidence, most accounts do point to Gerbert falling ill after attending mass at the church known as Jerusalem on May 3, 1003, and then dying shortly after on May 12. Historians are unsure of the exact cause of death, but some maintain that it was probably

• 23:02Dana Schwartz?

  a disease such as malaria, which had a track record of killing many rulers and popes in Rome. As scientists later learned, those with northern European roots were especially susceptible since they lacked genetically transferred protection. So, once again, location was a critical element of Gerbert's life. But while Gerbert's personal and professional battles were over, the fight over his legacy would continue for centuries.

• 23:39Dana Schwartz?

  A día de hoy, Gerbert sigue siendo el único matemático profesional que se convirtió en Papa, aunque, coincidencialmente, el muy recientemente elegido Papa Leo XIV obtuvo un título de matemática. Después de la muerte de Gerbert, ciertos historiadores partidarios prefirieron llamarlo principalmente Gerbert en lugar de Papa Silvestre II como una intentada rechaza. Esto parece adecuado, sin embargo, dado que no tuvo el reino más largo o más productivo como Papa, y, en mi mente, llamarlo Gerbert se siente más verdadero para su mayor identidad y legado.

• 24:19Dana Schwartz?

  Así que, si pensabas que lo estaba haciendo como una declaración política más grande, no realmente. Además de ayudar a revolucionar los campos de la matemática y la astronomía en Europa cristiana, gran parte del impacto de Gerbert fue como profesor, dado que instruyó a muchos clergamentos que continuaron a hacer importantes descubrimientos científicos y contribuciones de su propia. En la historia más reciente, numerosos matemáticos y sociedades matemáticas han honrado a Gerbert y, especialmente durante los picos de la islamofobia generalizada, apreciaron su tolerancia, colaboratividad y apreciación por la labor de intelectuales musulmanes.

• 25:02Dana Schwartz?

  De igual manera, los papa modernos y figuras religiosas han alabado las contribuciones de Gerbert como un científico y hombre de Dios, y a pesar de todo su supuesto sudor y ruido, el monumento preservado de Gerbert todavía se queda en la Iglesia de Ladrón. La semejanza de Gerbert también ha vivido, dado que ha sido commemorado con todo, desde estatuas hasta frescos hasta sellos de postales. El renombrado científico Papa también inspiró muchos trabajos de ficción y no ficción, incluyendo su servicio como antagonista de esquema en la serie de libros y series "Descubrimiento de las ladrones" de Deborah Harkness.

• 25:47Dana Schwartz?

  Although Gerbert's life was harshly maligned for long periods, to some degree, the vilifying legends may still have helped to spread his principles and immortalize his persona. On a basic level, the myths obviously provide an enticing entry point for those unfamiliar with his life and work. In a broader and more ironic way, we may actually have Gerbert's detractors, to think, for the fact that historians are able to analyze and credit many of his accomplishments. This is because, in fearing that many rivals might try to discredit him, the forward-thinking

• 26:31Dana Schwartz?

  Gerbert intentionally preserved many of his letters in the hopes of defending himself and his ideas. Fascinatingly, according to modern scholarship, even the heightened myths told about Gerbert showcase a clear progression of scientific understanding and acceptance. For instance, William of Malmesbury's account of Gerbert's life delineates knowledge seen as permissible and as impermissible. He claims that in Muslim Spain, Gerbert learned the impermissible skills of necromancy and animal augury, like seeing omens in birds' flight patterns.

• 27:14Dana Schwartz?

  But, William asserted that Gerbert was specifically able to make his "Talking Head" statue using knowledge gained by studying heavenly bodies. In his view, celestial divination was permissible, since astronomy was part of the accepted quadrivium. In other words, William condemned Gerbert for learning dark arts in Spain, but as opposed to earlier detractors, he explained that Gerbert's predictive abilities via "magic" statue head came from a more acceptable astral science rather than demonic magic.

• 27:57Dana Schwartz?

  Whether that was intentional on William's part or not, that's some progress. Accounts like that helped to further validate astronomy in Latin Europe, thus setting the stage for subsequent breakthroughs by the likes of Copernicus and Galileo. Arguably, the lengthy fixation with Gerbert's prophetic head also stands out as an intriguing example of humanity's fascination with artificial intelligence. Although posthumous portrayals of Gerbert clearly got absurd, perhaps if the renowned scientist had been able to gain knowledge of the future, he would have been amused

• 28:42Dana Schwartz?

  to know he would become a subject of science fiction hundreds of years before that term was widely used. Ultimately, the Catholic world may never again see a scientist pope quite like Sylvester II, and the science world may never again see a religious mathematician of Gerbert's ilk. Funnily enough, while many bitterly equated Gerbert's singular success with devilish dealmaking, a closer look at his life reveals how much of his true power came from his knack for collaborating and for sharing and inspiring.

• 29:24Dana Schwartz?

  From peasant to polymath to pope, the math-obsessed Gerbert of Aurlach never stopped finding strength in numbers. That's the story of Gerbert, but stick around after a brief sponsor break to hear another reason why any assumption that the famed mathematician lived in a total dark age doesn't add up.

• 29:58Speaker 02

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  It's gonna be one hell of a trip. Experience Before the Moment, a Lincoln Original Series on the iHeartRadio app, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, I'm Nile Rodgers, producer, songwriter, guitarist, and co-founder of the group Chic. A great song has a way of defining a moment, a moment of joy, heartbreak, or anything in between.

• 31:34Speaker 02

  This fall, I'll be driving across the country, dropping in on some of the coolest, most fascinating artists working today. We'll go deep into their lives and careers and hear what it was like before the moment that made them. From hitmakers like Miguel...

• 31:51Speaker 03

  That last year, finishing that record was the hardest experience of my life. Regardless of how everyone else buys into this. I believe in this and I'm gonna push.

• 32:03Speaker 02

  To rising stars like Alex Warren.

• 32:06Speaker 04

  You know, a song is a story and the verse is setting the scene. And for me at least, it's allowing me to be personal and vulnerable with the audience. Whether it's about my wife and I'm being vulnerable about her, or it's about, you know, my parents and I'm being vulnerable to them. And it's almost like a cinematic piece in a way where each song tells that beautiful story.

• 32:24Speaker 02

  It's gonna be one hell of a trip. Experience Before the Moment, a Lincoln Original Series on the iHeartRadio app, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 32:38Dana Schwartz?

  When recalling milestones that tested a society's ability to balance logic and superstition, Y2K was a pretty memorable one. The approach of the year 2000 prompted fears about widespread computer errors and infrastructure issues, as well as conspiracy theories and end of the world predictions. The digital element of the millennial transition was new. The prognosticating was not. Y1K saw plenty of similar panic. Or at least, that's the narrative that many later writers pushed, often trying to paint

• 33:20Dana Schwartz?

  prior eras as more primitive and ignorant than their own. Again, the accounts of many who were alive in the lead up to the year 1000 tells a more nuanced tale. There was still fear mongering. One 10th century chronicler documented supposed signs of the nearing apocalypse that included, quote, "reins of blood, wolves in churches, and unusually large whales." But the Christian world was not entirely gripped by existential terror. For one thing, the anno domini dating system was not yet universally accepted among record

• 34:01Dana Schwartz?

  keepers, which muddled rumors that the world would end 1,000 years after the birth of Jesus Christ. For another thing, those who were following the A.D. calendar system and feeling a wee bit anxious, they had a practical-minded religious leader to turn to. As a pope and scientist, Gerbert was uniquely positioned to be a calm voice of reason, and judging by many accounts, he was. So perhaps the modern and enlightened, yet occasionally angsty folks are not so different from our millennia-crossing counterparts, or at least those who paid

• 34:46Dana Schwartz?

  attention to their mathematician pope.

• 34:56Dana Schwartz?

  Noble Blood is a production of iHeartRadio and Grim and Mild from Aaron Manke. Noble Blood is hosted by me, Dana Schwartz, with additional writing and research by Hannah Johnston, Hannah Zwick, Courtney Sander, Amy Hight, and Giulia Milani. The show is edited and produced by Jesse Funk with supervising producer Reema Ilkayali and executive producers Aaron Manke, Trevor Young, and Matt Frederick. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

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• 36:07Dana Schwartz?

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.