The Thousand-Day Conclave

Continuing the theme of exploring Papal history, we discuss Gerbert of Aurillac, AKA Pope Sylvester II, who's scientific and mathmatical mind lead him to the highest seat of Catholic power. But after his death, detractors and enemies would spin his story into one of dark arts and deals with the devil. Support Noble Blood: — Bonus episodes, stickers, and scripts on Patreon https://www.patreon.com/noblebloodtales — Order Dana's book, 'Anatomy: A Love Story https://us.macmillan.com/books/9781250840578/anatomyalovestory' and its sequel 'Immortality: A Love Story https://us.macmillan.com/books/9781250861016/immortalityalovestory' See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Dana Schwartz?

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• 0:46Dana Schwartz?

  Welcome to Noble Blood, a production of iHeart Radio and Grim and Mild from Aaron Mankey. Listener discretion advised.

• 0:57Dana Schwartz?

  In the early evening on May 8, 2025, white smoke billowed from the Sistine Chapel in Rome. A new pope had been elected. Onlookers in the Vatican City and across the world waited with bated breath for over an hour, their eyes trained on the central loggia of St. Peter's Basilica, where the new pontiff's identity and regnal name would be announced after fewer than two days of voting. Before too long, Cardinal Dominique Momberti emerged to share with the world that the new head of the Catholic Church would be the former

• 1:35Dana Schwartz?

  Cardinal Robert Prevost, now Leo XIV. As Momberti put it in the traditional Latin, "We have a new pope." This papal conclave, which turned out to be among the shortest in history, although not the shortest and not too much shorter than the previous two papal elections, inspired a great deal of public interest. Leo's predecessor, Pope Francis, was a widely beloved figure, and many people in the Catholic world and beyond were deeply invested in whether and how the new pontiff would carry on his legacy.

• 2:16Dana Schwartz?

  Perhaps spurred on by the success of the 2024 film Conclave, many people were also intrigued by the rituals and secrecy defining the election process to select a new pope. In fact, many of the rules governing this two-day conclave and every conclave for hundreds of years stem from the events of a single papal election in the past. The longest conclave in history, and in many ways, the first conclave in history, started

• 2:53Dana Schwartz?

  in 1268 and took nearly three years, changing the way "popes are chosen" forever. I'm Dana Schwartz, and this is Noble Blood.

• 3:11Dana Schwartz?

  Clement IV was on his deathbed. It was 1268, and he had sat on the throne of St. Peter for just under four years. He had lived a full life. He had fought in war, studied law, married, and had two daughters, all before becoming a widower and joining the church. And he had made some important achievements during his reign, having summoned the now Saint Thomas Aquinas to serve as papal theologian, and he made strides towards diplomatic relations with the Mongols. Despite his achievements, however, much of Clement's pontificate had been defined by

• 3:51Dana Schwartz?

  the conflict between the papal loyalist Guelphs and the anti-papal Ghibellines. You might remember those factions from our episode on the Cannibal Count of Pisa, who, by this time, was already beginning to betray his Ghibelline sympathies.

• 4:10Dana Schwartz?

  The election in which Clement had become Pope, which began in 1264 and lasted around four months, had seen significant debate among the College of Cardinals about how best to protect the papacy from Ghibelline threats. Clement, who was French in origin, in fact, had had to travel to Italy in disguise upon his election to the papacy in order to protect himself from Ghibelline violence. Clement had reigned throughout the entirety of his pontificate from Viterbo, a city some fifty miles northwest of Rome, which had been the seat of the papacy since 1257, when Pope Alexander IV

• 4:54Dana Schwartz?

  had moved the papal curia there in the wake of excessive violence in Rome. That violence in Rome had continued during the papacy of Clement's immediate predecessor, Urban IV, and into Clement's papacy. In 1566, Clement had overseen the completion of construction begun under Alexander IV and commissioned by the Viterbin captain of the people to convert the Bishop's Palace in Viterbo into a bona fide papal residence, which became known as the Palazzo di Poppi, or the Palace of the Popes. Clement was devoted to protecting the independence of the papacy.

• 5:38Dana Schwartz?

  Most notably, he allied with Charles I of Anjou, the younger brother of King Louis IX of France, in his controversial conquest of Naples, offering him the throne in exchange for an acknowledgement of the Pope as the feudal lord. Fortified with papal support and papal funding, Charles defeated the Holy Roman Emperor's illegitimate son and heir, Manfred, King of Sicily, whose Ghibelline ties as a member of the powerful Hohenzollern family and refusal to acknowledge the Pope's feudal power had made him an enemy of the Holy See. Manfred had usurped power

• 6:22Dana Schwartz?

  from his young nephew, Conradin, the last legitimate heir of the House of Hohenzollern. Manfred was killed by Charles's forces in the Battle of Benevento in 1266, allowing Charles to take control of Naples.

• 6:40Dana Schwartz?

  Conradin, who had been a teenager at that time, attempted to reclaim Naples and was captured some two years later in the Battle of Tagliacoto. He was imprisoned and eventually publicly beheaded on Charles's orders on October 29, 1268. Later detractors would spread the rumor that Clement, the Pope, had supported Charles's ruthless tactics, decrying his complicity in the death of the young king. But in fact Clement had actually pleaded for Charles to have mercy on the boy. Nevertheless, by allowing Charles to take control of Naples,

• 7:23Dana Schwartz?

  Clement cemented French power in Italy, which many cardinals saw as a threat to the independence of the papacy and that of the Italian city-states they hailed from in and of itself. Exactly one month after Conradin's beheading, on November 29, 1268, Clement died, following what was reportedly a brief illness. Despite the achievements of his pontificate, he left behind not only the vacant throne of Saint Peter, but also a cardinalate divided on how best to fill it.

• 8:02Dana Schwartz?

  In 1268, the Sacred College boasted 20 cardinals, 19 of whom participated in the papal election. The 20th was busy accompanying Louis IX of France on his crusade in Tunisia. In keeping with the tradition of holding the papal election in the city where the previous Pope had died, the 19 cardinals made their way to Viterbo in late November, once word had reached them of the death of Clement IV. The Cardinals oversaw his burial in the Dominican convent of Santa Maria in Garati, which stood just outside of the city, before beginning the election proceedings just two days after his death, on December 1st, 1268.

• 8:47Dana Schwartz?

  Immediately, it became clear that this conclave would not be straightforward. Along with the Cardinals' arrival, had come that of Charles of Anjou, the newly crowned and bloodthirsty king of Naples. Clement had underestimated Charles's ambitions for an Italian empire, and with the Pope's death, Charles had seen an opportunity to continue to consolidate power. He came to Viterbo with the intention of influencing the papal election. The issue of Charles's presence and his clear intentions for the election and thereafter quickly became the central issue dividing the Cardinals.

• 9:32Dana Schwartz?

  It's impossible to note the numbers with any accuracy, but it seems that there was an even enough split between those who wanted to continue the pro-French tradition of the previous two Popes, and those who wanted to divorce the papacy from Charles's influence. Not to mention those who were out to elevate their own allies, countrymen, and family members. The election was essentially deadlocked from the start. At first, the Cardinals passed freely between the cathedral and their lodgings. They held only one vote each day, which, day after day, resulted in nothing but further tensions and no clear frontrunner for Pope.

• 10:17Dana Schwartz?

  Although we know very little about the actual deliberations or candidates considered for the papacy, it's likely that at least a few of the Cardinals present were considered "papabili," or potential candidates for Pope. Although it was not necessary to be a Cardinal to be elected Pope, technically, it still isn't, and other important figures in the Church hierarchy were considered. Given the fact that the Cardinals were free to move about as they pleased, it's also likely that they were subject to outside pressure and influence, perhaps most notably from Charles, who would remain in Viterbo throughout the election proceedings.

• 11:02Dana Schwartz?

  Later sources would have it that, two months in, the Cardinals nearly agreed on electing Filippo Benitsi, the general of the Servite Order. It's likely that this story isn't true, and was rather a fabrication meant to support Benitsi's later canonization, but he supposedly came to Viterbo, in early 1269, to scold the Cardinals for dragging their feet in the electoral process. They were apparently so impressed with Benitsi, that they chose him to fill the empty papal throne, but he fled the city to prevent his election, forcing the Cardinals back to square one.

• 11:43Dana Schwartz?

  A similar, also likely untrue, story of near-election would also crop up long after the fact, concerning Saint Bonaventure, then known as Giovanni di Fidamza. In any case, no pope was indeed elected in those first few months, and the voting continued apace. Just under a year after the election had begun, a new wrench was thrown into the proceedings when one of the electors died. Cardinal Giordano Piranti died of unknown causes on October 1, 1269, at about 59 years old.

• 12:24Dana Schwartz?

  He had updated his will a few weeks prior, so he may have been ill, and with his death only eighteen electors remained, an even number that did not bode well for breaking any future ties. It seems Cardinal Piranti's death was something of a turning point for the secular authorities in Viterbo, though it would take them several more months to take action. Around June 1270, after the "anniversary of the last pope's death came and went", and the erstwhile Cardinals entered their 20th month of unsuccessful voting,

• 13:03Dana Schwartz?

  Raniero Gatti, the prefect of Viterbo, and Albertus de Montebonno, the podesta, ordered that the remaining electors be "sequestered" in the Palazzo di Papi until they could choose the pope's successor, once and for all. These were drastic times, and the time had long passed for drastic measures. And before long, it would seem that even more drastic measures would be needed to get these Cardinals to finally make their choice.

• 13:39Dana Schwartz?

  In the late summer of 1271, a teenage Marco Polo was just beginning the journey that would cement him as one of history's most famous travelers. He had set off from Venice with his father Niccolo and his uncle Maffeo. And after a short, eastward journey across the Mediterranean, they had arrived in the fortified city of Acker, a Crusader stronghold on the Levantine coastline. It was there that they met Archdeacon Teobaldo Visconti of Peachenza, who had followed Edward I of England to Acker in the Ninth Crusade earlier that year.

• 14:20Dana Schwartz?

  During their visit, the Polos lamented to the Archdeacon that the Papal Throne was still vacant after over two years of fruitless voting. Marco's father and uncle had previously traveled to China, where the Emperor Kublai Khan had given them a letter for the Pope. They had been disappointed to return in 1269 to find that they still had no one to give it to. That was almost two years ago. Now, here the brothers were making their way eastward again, now with Marco, and still, no news from Viterbo. They had been shocked when an elector died

• 15:01Dana Schwartz?

  in 1269, and even more so, some six months later, when the Viterban authorities ordered that the remaining Cardinals be locked away in the Palazzo dei Poppi to complete their election. Around the same time, it was suggested, supposedly by the English Cardinal John of Toledo, that the roof of the voting chamber in the Palazzo should be removed, saying, "Let us uncover the room, else the Holy Ghost will never get at us." For you papal election fans following along at home, this was the first recorded reference to the now-essential idea that the Holy Spirit guides the election of popes.

• 15:45Dana Schwartz?

  It was also suggested that the electors’ rations be reduced to just bread and water for the remainder of the election. The magistrates of Viterbo agreed, likely hoping that some scorching sun, torrential rain, and stupefying hunger would guide the electors, in addition to the Holy Spirit, of course. The cardinals petitioned the magistrates that Cardinal Henry of Segusio be excused from the remainder of the election due to health concerns, which would have been exacerbated by having to spend every day hungry and exposed to the elements. He had renounced his right to vote, and his request was granted.

• 16:29Dana Schwartz?

  The remaining seventeen cardinals were locked into the palace, the doors and windows barred, and the roof of the voting chamber was removed. Some sources say that a makeshift roof was later added back onto the election chamber after the cardinals threatened to excommunicate the entire city, but it seems that they actually at least took their new diet in stride.

• 16:56Dana Schwartz?

  By the time Marco Polo, his father, and his uncle met with the Archdeacon in Acker in 1271, it had been almost a year since the cardinal electors had been locked up. In that time, yet another cardinal elector had died: Istvan Banca, the first cardinal to hail from Hungary. Cardinal Henry of Segusio had enough time to fully recuperate and return to Viterbo to resume voting. King Louis IX of France died and was succeeded by his son Philip, who became Philip III. In his "as yet unanswered" letter to the "as yet unanswered Pope",

• 17:38Dana Schwartz?

  Kublai Khan had requested the dispatch of a hundred missionaries and some oil from the lamp of the Holy Sepulcher in Jerusalem to his court in where is now known as Beijing. The Polos told Archdeacon Visconti of those requests and of their predicament in having to wait so long to make good on them because there wasn't a Pope to ask. The Archdeacon told the Polo family to bide their time by traveling to Jerusalem to fetch the oil first, and hopefully by the time they finished and returned, there would be a new Pope. They did that and returned to Aker to find that a Pope still had not been chosen.

• 18:23Dana Schwartz?

  Unable to justify keeping the Polos from their journey indefinitely, Visconti sent them on their way. The Polos did not make it far, however, before receiving an urgent message to return to Aker. In August 1271, under pressure from the new King Philip III and Charles of Anjou, the authorities in Viterbo and just about everyone else, the Cardinal electors had decided to choose the Pope by committee, selecting six among their numbers and agreeing to abide by whatever decision they came to. Through this method, on September 1, 1271,

• 19:06Dana Schwartz?

  after 1,006 days of voting, they finally came to a decision. From the ruthless palace in Viterbo, the message of the Cardinal's choice traveled across the Mediterranean to Aker, but the Archdeacon, who was not a Cardinal or even a priest, was notified that he had been chosen to fill the papal throne that had been empty for nearly three years.

• 19:35Dana Schwartz?

  As someone with some ties to France, but not so many that he would be a puppet of the French crown or of Charles of Anjou, he was an unexpected candidate that apparently was satisfying enough for all parties. It is unknown how long his name had been in contention, but the struggle of the Sixth Cardinal Committee to select a pope from among the cardinal electors at first suggests he may have been a last-minute consideration. The Polos made it back to Acker not long after and were received warmly by their friend, who had suddenly become the head of the Church and the prince of the Papal States.

• 20:16Dana Schwartz?

  He formally designated them envoys of the Church to Kublai Khan and sent them on their journey with two friars and a collection of gifts meant to demonstrate his hopes for friendly relations with the emperor. He offered a special blessing to Marco, by which the young traveler was reportedly greatly pleased.

• 20:39Dana Schwartz?

  Teobaldo Visconti left Acker on November 9, 1271, and reached Viterbo some months later, on February 12, 1272, where he took the regnal name Gregory the Tenth. Breaking the years-long absence of the popes from Rome, he entered the city a month later in March and was ordained a priest six days later. Finally, on March 27, 1272, over three years after the death of the previous pope, he was consecrated a bishop and crowned in Saint Peter's Basilica. Gregory's papacy lasted for only a little over four years, but his reign was consequential.

• 21:24Dana Schwartz?

  On July 7, 1274, his papal bull, Ubi Periculum, named for its opening line, “Ubi Periculum Maius Intenditur,” meaning “Where Great Danger Lies,” codified many of the practices desperately undertaken to speed a ...his election as standard practice for the election of future popes. In addition to already established practices like the rule requiring a two-thirds majority for a ballot to pass, Gregory ordained that the cardinal electors should be sequestered for the duration of the election, specified the provision of increasingly spare rations

• 22:08Dana Schwartz?

  the longer the proceedings endured, and placed various restrictions meant to both speed proceedings and prevent political intrigue, bribery, and deal-making, among other new rules. Although some later popes would lift these restrictions, Gregory's bull would go on to be codified into canon law in 1298, and though conclave practices have seen many changes and updates since, it remains a foundational part of the way modern papal elections are conducted. Gregory the Tenth died in the Tuscan city of Atretzo on January 10th, 1276.

• 22:50Dana Schwartz?

  In accordance with his bull, which specified that the election should begin 10 days later if all electors had arrived at his place of death by then, the conclave convened right on schedule on January 20th. It concluded with the election of Pope Innocent the Fifth just one day later. That's the story of the longest-ever papal election, but keep listening after a brief sponsor break to hear about another fascinating aspect of the legacy of Gregory the Tenth.

• 23:30Speaker 02

  Hey, it's Nile Rodgers, host of Before the Moment, a Lincoln original series. I'm driving across the country, meeting some of today's most fascinating artists. We're exploring the stories before the moment that changed everything. This week, I'm joined by breakout singer-songwriter Alex Warren.

• 23:50Speaker 03

  I'm like a kid when I play music and I make music and I'm constantly asking questions, you know, whether it's an instrument I haven't played or it's a melody that seems foreign, you know, there's every night you play a show and it's the same set, but it's not the same show. At a certain point, your brain kind of goes on autopilot. When I'm in the studio or if I'm making music, that's where that curiosity kind of comes back, you know? I haven't lost it yet, but I'm also on my sophomore album. So, and you, you obviously are an expert here.

• 24:16Speaker 02

  Experience Before the Moment, a Lincoln original series on the iHeart Radio app, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, it's Nile Rodgers, host of Before the Moment, a Lincoln original series. I'm driving across the country, meeting some of today's most fascinating artists. We're exploring the stories before the moment that changed everything. This week, I'm joined by rising star Sienna Spider.

• 24:45Speaker 04

  I love the 60s. I feel really jealous that I, I wasn't alive for it. I'd be interested, like, knowing what that was like and seeing the way culture and art has, has progressed today. How do you find it?

• 24:55Speaker 02

  Wait a minute, I'm, I'm-

• 24:56Speaker 04

  I'm sorry, I have so many questions. Sorry.

• 24:59Speaker 02

  You're not nervous, are you?

• 25:00Speaker 04

  I am nervous.

• 25:01Speaker 02

  You are?

• 25:01Speaker 04

  I am. I feel like insecure about my experience. I know I shouldn't, but, you know, I'm 20. I haven't really lived my life yet. And then sitting in front of somebody that has lived an enormous life is, is intimidating. And sometimes I feel like talking about myself is just not as interesting. So that's why I feel a bit nervous. I'll try and, I'll try and ignore it, though.

• 25:21Speaker 02

  Please do. Experience Before the Moment, a Lincoln original series on the iHeart Radio app, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 25:32Dana Schwartz?

  Among the many questions that arose in the weeks leading up to Leo XIV's election, what the new pope's stance would be on social and doctrinal issues, where he would hail from, et cetera, was the question, what would he wear? A pope's first public appearance has always been his first statement to the world, a declaration of what kind of pope he would be, even before he opened his mouth. When Leo's predecessor- Pope Francis was elected in 2013, he famously bucked tradition by foregoing the red mozzetta and ornate stole typically worn by newly elected popes and appearing

• 26:13Dana Schwartz?

  in a simple white cassock, a move that endeared him to many who believed the papacy too removed from the lives and experiences of the common people. While Leo's "Ubi et Orbi" address, which means "To the City and the World," the first address made by newly elected popes, reflected a clear desire to continue Francis' legacy, he chose to wear the mozzetta and the stole, perhaps symbolizing that he also intended to put his own stamp on the papacy. But since then, he's mostly been seen wearing just the white cassock, as is standard for

• 26:54Dana Schwartz?

  most everyday papal duties, like meeting with foreign dignitaries, greeting worshippers, or riding in the popemobile. And in fact, we have our old friend Gregory X to thank for that important part of papal sartorial history. While garments like the mozzetta or the mitra, the big hat that the pope and bishops wear during certain liturgical celebrations, have been worn by popes since at least the 11th century, if not before, it was Gregory who is first documented wearing the white cassock during his reign. Over 700 years later, it remained an iconic symbol of the papacy. Talk about a trendsetter.

• 27:45Dana Schwartz?

  Noble Blood is a production of iHeartRadio and Grim and Mild from Aaron Manke. Noble Blood is hosted by me, Dana Schwartz, with additional writing and research by Hannah Johnston, Hannah Zwick, Courtney Sender, Amy Hyatt, and Giulia Milani. The show is edited and produced by Jesse Funk with supervising producer Reema Ilkayali and executive producers Aaron Manke, Trevor Young, and Matt Frederick. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

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• 28:54Dana Schwartz?

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.