11 Alan Jones | Sydney lunch allegations tested with new witness

Witnesses have given evidence about an alleged 'under the table' touching incident at a Sydney lunch, but a new witness alleged to have seen the assault, says he doesn't remember the lunch at all. Reporter Isobel Roe recaps the key moments from court, including the confrontational end to former 2GB rival Ray Hadley's cross examination. If you have any questions you’d like Isobel and Stocky to answer in future episodes, please email [email protected] mailto:[email protected]. Sexual assault support services: MARS Australia (for men affected by rape and sexual abuse) https://marsaustralia.com.au/ on (07) 3857 1222, National Survivors Foundation https://igff.org.au/ on 1300 124 43 You can find all episodes of The Case of Alan Jones here. https://www.abc.net.au/listen/programs/the-case-of/the-case-of-alan-jones/106995118 The Case Of is the follow-up to the hit podcast Mushroom Case Daily, and all episodes of that show will remain available in the back catalogue of The Case Of.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Politicians don't usually get assassinated in Australia. I say usually because in the mid 1990s, an Australian politician became the first MP to be assassinated while still in the job. John Newman, the MP for Cabramatta, was gunned down in the driveway of his home. Cabramatta was having a big problem with heroin and drug gangs at that exact moment. The Assassins podcast brings you the full story on YouTube, ABC Listen and wherever you get your podcasts.

• 0:29Speaker 01

  ABC Listen, podcasts, radio, news, music and more.

• 0:44Stephen Stockwell?

  Memories have been tested and there have been some strong words from the bench as the trial of Alan Jones enters week six. I'm Stephen Stockwell, welcome to episode 11 of The Case of Alan Jones. And just a heads up, there's some strong language in this episode.

• 1:01Speaker 01

  Veteran broadcaster Alan Jones has been a giant of the Australian media landscape.

• 1:06Speaker 03

  Some people said that he was more powerful than the Prime Minister.

• 1:10Speaker 04

  There was an 83 year old male arrested this morning. Detectives from the Child Abuse Squad turned up at Alan Jones' luxury apartment down there at Circular Quay.

• 1:19Speaker 01

  Following allegations that he indecently assaulted multiple young men.

• 1:23Speaker 05

  I'm not going to dwell here on the allegations made about me, other than to say that I refute them entirely.

• 1:30Stephen Stockwell?

  We have returned to the lunch at the centre of one of Complaintant C's allegations against Alan Jones. And the media has drawn the ire of Justice Glenn Walsh as we have continued through the trial of Alan Jones. And there, sitting stoically under his honours glare, is ABC Court reporter Isobel Rowe. Welcome Isabel.

• 1:49Speaker 06

  Thanks, Stocky.

• 1:50Stephen Stockwell?

  It's lovely to have you back for this episode to take us through what's unfolded over the last few days in the trial of Alan Jones. Can you give us the skinny on what's been happening?

• 1:58Speaker 06

  The skinny, I can. So we've heard the end of Ray Hadley's evidence. This is the shock jock Ray Hadley, who worked with Alan Jones, someone who the defence says really had it out for and wanted to destroy Alan Jones. But we also heard some kind of nicer words that Ray Hadley had for his former colleague. The media has been a bit of a theme in the last few days, not necessarily for good reasons. And there has been some concern about the media talking to witnesses at some point during their evidence. We've heard from someone who others say was at this lunch in Sydney, where one of the

• 2:42Speaker 06

  allegations against Complaintant C supposedly occurred. This person also supposedly, according to others, made a joke about seeing this particular alleged act. But then this man has come up to the witness box and denied remembering being at that lunch at all. And I have had a couple of days sitting in the foyer outside of the courtroom, which is not where I want to be.

• 3:12Stephen Stockwell?

  Thank you, Isabel. Look, I do want to talk about this other lunch witness that you've mentioned in the rap there. This is a person who says, well, that Complaintant C says is at a lunch where Complaintant C alleges that Alan Jones has touched him on the thigh during that. And it's not so much that this person didn't see anything occurring at that lunch, it's just that they actually just don't remember a lunch at all.

• 3:35Speaker 06

  Yeah. So this lunch is, I mean, it's been the centre of a lot of the evidence in this trial because it's something that in relation to Complaintant C, other people were actually at. And so we've been hearing from a bunch of people at this event. This work lunch, or Alan Jones hosted lunch in Sydney, there were, there were work colleagues there, but there were also some friends of Alan Jones from outside his personal life as well. We have heard from other witnesses that this new witness, who we won't name because we're trying not to identify Complaintant C, that this new witness was at this lunch, he was

• 4:17Speaker 06

  present because he was a colleague of Complaintant C and Alan Jones. We have heard that this witness was present or even said in a conversation after the lunch, you copped a feel under the table, didn't you? Now, this alleged copying a feel was where Complaintant C says he was sitting next to Alan Jones at this lunch and Mr. Jones put his hand under the table on his lap and C says he rested it there for most of the lunch. This witness has now started his evidence, this man that supposedly was there, who made this comment.

• 5:00Speaker 06

  And he's been asked about, you know, whether he remembers going to work lunches. And he said, oh yeah, we've, we had sporadic lunches. We went to one at a place in Wallara he named. He said he went to one at the top of the Star City Casino once. And then the Crown said, well, did you go to any work lunch with C and Alan Jones and Jason Morrison, another witness we've heard of? And he said, I might, I might have, but I don't remember a particular one. He was asked, did you attend any work lunch at your recall, at which any jokes were made

• 5:43Speaker 06

  about Alan Jones and any other member of staff? And he said, no. So the Crown was asking him these questions to draw him to this particular lunch that we've, we've been talking about. And he just couldn't remember even going to the restaurant. We've heard from other witnesses that there was this confusion about whether it was this restaurant, Burnt Orange, or this other restaurant, Gunner's Barracks, that are very close to each other. This man does not remember apparently going to any of it at all. And that was where some evidence of his sort of stalled.

• 6:23Stephen Stockwell?

  It's interesting, the, the questions that the prosecution are asking this witness. I mean, we've talked about the difference in, you know, style and I guess the difference in rules between the way the prosecution questions a witness in evidence in chief and the way that the defence is cross-examining a witness as well. And, you know, the prosecution isn't able to challenge this witness by saying, you went to this lunch on this date, did you? Because that's a closed question. They have to ask these open questions, which is why they're asking these questions in the way that you've described, Isabel. Do you remember going to a lunch with Jason Morrison, Alan Jones and C? And kind of like trying to, you know, prompt him and see what he recalls from, from there. As you mentioned, this has stalled, so it's slowed down quite a bit from that stage. But we've also had a couple of statements read into the court as well.

• 7:08Stephen Stockwell?

  Sounds like friends of Complaintant C. And they seem to be backing up his story of disclosing these allegations at a couple of points prior to making his complaint to police in, in 2024.

• 7:20Speaker 06

  Yeah, so these statements have been like read out by the Crown essentially. Instead of getting the witness in, they've just read out something that they've previously said to police. One of these men says that they are a friend of Complaintant C, knew about their, Complainant C's career, was saying that, you know, they remember in social situations when Complainant C and, and this witness and others would go out to a pub or something, that sometimes if Complainant C was speaking about work, he would bring up some comments about Alan

• 8:04Speaker 06

  Jones. This man says that C said Alan would give me a massage, touch me on the leg while I was driving him. He said C said would be at Alan Jones's house and that he would wear a robe and that it would be open. His statement said that C would say these comments in this lighthearted way. And he said, we were, we were young and I didn't go on to ask any more questions about it, even though he was saying these things, I wasn't comfortable asking any more about it. And it was all just sort of lighthearted chat. This person says he then remembers seeing the Sydney Morning Herald article. And he believed that the, one of the people in the article was his friend C.

• 8:48Speaker 06

  And then C confirmed that that was him and that what was written in the article had actually happened, he said. This man also says that he remembers that C said to him once that he got this text message around Christmas time that mentioned his, well, genitals and a language warning here, but the text supposedly said from Alan Jones to C. And a language warning here, hope you and your big cock enjoy your Christmas. And so this friend says he remembers C, you know, telling him that, telling him about this, this text message.

• 9:28Speaker 06

  We also had this other statement read into the record from another colleague, someone who says they worked with C and sort of started around the same time. He had this memory of, again, C sort of making these offhand comments about things that Alan Jones had allegedly done to him. He said he remembered that C had made an offhand remark to me about a text he'd received from Alan Jones, that Alan Jones had asked him to send a pic of his language warning, dick or knob or cock, and he couldn't remember which of the words C had used.

• 10:09Speaker 06

  And C said something like, oh, Alan sends messages like this sometimes. And this man, in the same way that a lot of C's friends apparently responded, didn't, you know, do anything about it, didn't ask too many questions about it. They all gave evidence that C sort of said it in this very lighthearted, offhand way, was part of a other conversation, conversation moved on. And no one ever said to him, you know, are you okay, mate? Or anything like that. It was all just in the conversation that these comments were made. And again, this witness said he spoke to C after the 2023.

• 10:50Speaker 06

  Articles came out in the Sydney Morning Herald and C confirmed that one of the people in the articles was him.

• 10:59Stephen Stockwell?

  I found it interesting, Isabel, I think it was the high school friend, the one you talked about in there, not kind of knowing how to react when C disclosed that to him. Also a question, I think also one of the work colleagues as well, kind of wondering, you know, placing it at a certain time because him thinking, oh, well, later in my career, I would have probably actioned that or done something more with it than when it was disclosed when I was, you know, in a slightly more, in a more junior role, I suppose. Isabel, we've had the final evidence from Ray Hadley, that's wrapped up early on Thursday morning. It had the kind of classic build up to the penultimate question. How did that go?

• 11:38Speaker 06

  Yeah, so Ray Hadley, there was a bit of defence questioning that morning. He was asked again about the timing of his calls with Peter Fitzsimons, the author who we know he was sort of speaking to about this potential Alan Jones story around the time where complainant C went to Ray Hadley and confided in him about these allegations. The defence was trying to ask him questions around this concept of him speaking to Peter Fitzsimons several times after he spoke to complainant C.

• 12:17Speaker 06

  The defence alleging that he was trying to think of more allegations essentially against Alan Jones, and that was something that Ray Hadley denied under those questions. He was then taken back to reexamination from the Crown, which was an opportunity for them to ask him a bit more about why he made some of the really offensive remarks that he did about Alan Jones. We heard text messages where, you know, he said he wanted to destroy Alan Jones or that Alan Jones should be destroyed.

• 12:53Speaker 06

  He was asked about that message and the Crown said, why did you send that message saying Alan Jones should be destroyed? And Ray Hadley said, well, it was for what he'd done to complainant C. It was in reference to the proceedings that were here at the moment. Mr. Hadley said, you know, I said I would stick by complainant C. I said I'd support him in every way, no matter what cause of action he decided to take. And that's why I'm here today, he said. He was also asked about this animosity that he supposedly had for Alan Jones in and around October 2019, the time of this conversation where complainant C supposedly came to him and confided in him.

• 13:38Speaker 06

  And he said, I had the animosity because of the events prior to that date. He said, in October, when I spoke to C, I'd been targeted by Mr. Jones. He'd found out that I'd signed that contract to take his position. This was a contract, we heard, he had signed secretly to take over Alan Jones's breakfast show, which never eventuated. And he said that Alan Jones was targeting him because he thought that I was disloyal. So he was, the Crown was asking questions and he was trying to paint this picture of not liking Alan Jones because of these contract disputes essentially, and he felt that Alan Jones was trying to target him in the workplace.

• 14:20Speaker 06

  We also heard something slightly nicer that Ray Hadley had to say about Alan Jones. There was a text message he sent, Alan Jones sent to Ray Hadley, which was a congratulatory text message. I think it might have been he got married, Mr. Hadley got married. And Ray Hadley responded. And so the Crown was like, well, you said something nice, didn't you? You had a cordial text message. And he said, yeah, I guess common courtesy dictated that I reply, you know, nicely that because I got a nice message. And then he sort of went on this nice tangent about his relationship with Alan Jones. He said, our relationship was very complicated. We went from being very close to very distant. Much of my success as a broadcaster was due to him.

• 15:03Speaker 06

  He said, we had stand up brawls on the front page of the paper. He'd said he'd never work with me again. He wanted me out of the building. But at the same time, we had these moments of niceness. And he put it down to the pressure that they were both under in these really big radio roles. And he said it was a pressure to deliver and it was a tumultuous relationship, sometimes warm and friendly and sometimes hostile. And as you said, Stocky, there's this end of the questioning from the defence, which sort of wraps it all neatly in a bow.

• 15:41Speaker 06

  And Gabrielle Bishir said, you know, I suggest you've not been truthful about your account of meeting with C. And he said, I reject that entirely. And that was the end of her cross examination of him.

• 15:55Stephen Stockwell?

  The thing I appreciated on Thursday, Isabel, after we discussed the wink that made you the centre of the courtroom in our last episode, as Ray Hadley winked at a journalist in a white coat at the back of the room, you there, wearing a white coat. I appreciated both Georgina Wright, prosecution barrister, and Gabrielle Bishir, the defence barrister, both in white jackets on Thursday morning in solidarity.

• 16:18Speaker 06

  I like to think that that was a little homage to wink gate. We'll never know.

• 16:23Stephen Stockwell?

  We will never know. That'll be their secret to keep. Any wash up from that? I know the sheriff was going to look at various phones to see if Ray Hadley had been contacted by a journalist. That'll seem to sort of go away.

• 16:32Speaker 06

  It did go away. It wasn't even mentioned really in court the next day. I think the Crown tried to bring it up and sort of smooth it over, but his honour had moved on.

• 16:44Speaker 06

  I think we mentioned in the last episode that journalist's phone was searched by the sheriff. And as they had promised, they did not contact Ray Hadley via a call. So, yeah, I think we've moved on from that.

• 16:58Stephen Stockwell?

  Yep. We're five weeks in to this trial at the moment, Isabel. We are only up to the second complainant out of six. How much longer have we got to go?

• 17:10Speaker 06

  There has been jokes made in the trial about not booking holidays for January, which gives me anxiety. I think it's a joke.

• 17:25Speaker 06

  It's interesting because this trial was initially set down for four months or something, which was going to take it to pretty much the end of the year. But that was with a larger number of charges and a larger number of complainants. And despite having dropped some charges and complainants before the beginning of this trial, we still somehow have the same trajectory, which is into December. And there've also been jokes about bringing a Christmas tree and some tinsel to the Downing Centre. So we could be here for longer than we initially thought because of, yeah, because of these legal arguments that have been taking up

• 18:08Speaker 06

  time that potentially, you know, wasn't predicted by the parties.

• 18:13Stephen Stockwell?

  Well, you know, we've got the two complainants we've heard from so far. They make up the bulk of the allegations, the bulk of the charges against Alan Jones, don't they? So we'll potentially speed up a bit once we get through these.

• 18:21Speaker 06

  It could do, yeah. The complainant J and complainant C have had, I think, nine and eight charges. The rest, some of them have one, some of them have two. So, yeah, we might speed up a little bit towards the end.

• 18:36Stephen Stockwell?

  Yep. You know, it's our role here, basically on the case of, to be our eyes and ears inside the courtroom as we're working through these various trials. But there are other senses as well that both Isabel and I possess and can take into a courtroom as well. Isabel, some of which have been challenged over the last few days. What's happened?

• 18:58Speaker 06

  I did notice that the courtroom smelled of tuna, which is an offensive smell and should never be brought into any workplace. I have my suspicions on who I think the tuna eater is. I shan't name them. But if they're listening, please choose another type of food for your lunch. That's all I have to say about that.

• 19:22Stephen Stockwell?

  Oh, look, you won't disclose it now, Isabel, but I'm sure we'll get emails to [email protected] asking who the offender was. And speaking of questions and emails to [email protected], we have had a heap coming through with people wanting to know more about what's unfolding and questions about the way that things have unfolded in the courtroom. One here from L, who was emailed saying that they thought witnesses were supposed to stay away from the media. How did Ray Hadley know that people were talking about him in the paper?

• 19:50Speaker 06

  Hmm. Ray Hadley admitted in court quite happily to reading all of the media coverage. It was a little bit amusing because while it's not illegal to read media if you are a witness, it is not advised. And Ray Hadley, I mean, I guess, as we've said before, we're dealing with media professionals in a trial about a media professional that's been covered by the media and Ray Hadley has been reading the media. So he said, I read, I read a story that the Sydney Morning Herald had called him, you know, he said scruffy, but it was speaking gruffly. He,

• 20:34Speaker 06

  he said he'd been speaking to Kate McLemont, another journalist who is also a witness in this case about ICAC, which he's allowed to do, he's allowed to talk to people about other things. But yeah, basically, he said, yes, I've, I've seen what other witnesses have said. I mean, at least he was open about it. But I don't think Judge Walsh was overly impressed at that admission.

• 20:57Stephen Stockwell?

  No, I can't imagine he, he was and he's, you know, probably didn't do too much to improve his mood over the last few days. That's a wonderful question, Elle. Thank you very much for emailing the case of at abc.net.au. Another one here from Gay. She is wondering what happened to the transcript from a conversation with Jason Morrison and Kate McLemont. Now, this is something we talked about a couple of episodes ago. This was when Jason Morrison, while giving evidence, was presented with a transcript from a conversation he had with journalist Kate McLemont, who was reporting on allegations against Alan Jones. And Jason Morrison kind of flared up and said, hang on, why is there a transcript of that? I never consented to it being recorded. And then we never really kind of went any further with that. Gay's wondering what the outcome of that was.

• 21:42Speaker 06

  Hmm. Great question. The outcome is that, the short story is that the transcripts of those phone calls were thrown out, won't be used. They were withdrawn by the Crown. What happened was there was a lot of legal argument about that, part of the reason why we've had our slower days, that little upset from Jason Morrison. Basically, when it came up that Kate McLemont may have recorded the conversation and may not have had permission for that, that was what Jason Morrison's allegation was anyway. The Crown went away that day, made some very urgent phone calls, and then came back and decided that they

• 22:26Speaker 06

  would just drop it, didn't need to use that, never mind, pretend that never happened. But the defence were then a little bit annoyed and they put forward this argument that, well, this whole cross-examination that the Crown was doing of Jason Morrison, which they were able to do when they got him classified as an unfavourable witness, that was all based on, in part, the existence of these transcripts. And so the defence saw that as an opportunity to say, all right, well, actually, we're, we're going to apply for all of that cross-examination to be thrown out, essentially, you know, telling Judge Walsh to remove it from his

• 23:05Speaker 06

  brain, remove it from the case and not consider it anymore. And so they argued that, that this application to cross-examine Jason Morrison was granted on the understanding that there would be these phone transcripts included. But the Crown said, it doesn't matter, the transcripts weren't crucial. Our cross-examination was based mostly on all of these other things. We can remove the transcripts and it does not substantially change the case that we had against Jason Morrison and the reason for that application. His Honour agreed with the Crown, said that's fine. Transcripts were removed. The cross-examination that

• 23:48Speaker 06

  had been done was able to stay, so, you know, still part of this case. And we have not heard of these phone conversations again. And we shan't because we're pretending that that never happened.

• 24:00Stephen Stockwell?

  Exactly. Yep. So they're all gone. But Gay, it was a wonderful question. Appreciate you getting in touch. So we could close the loop on that. Also, love the attention to detail of Case of listeners where they, they're coming back going, hang on a second, this was a thing and you never spoke about it again. What was going on with that?

• 24:16Speaker 06

  And please do remind us because, you know, all of this becomes garbled in my head. So I'm happy to be prompted about things we've forgotten to say.

• 24:24Stephen Stockwell?

  Yes, no, it is very much appreciated, all the emails that we get to the case of at abc.net.au. So please get in touch, any questions, any feedback, any thoughts, reflections, things like that. Best place to listen to the pod is ABC Listen. Of course, if you are listening on a lesser podcast platform, as they are known, leave us a rating and review. It makes it much easier for people to find us in those places as well. And if you are so inclined, tell your friends and family as well, pop it in the group chat, start a conversation, start an argument. I'm really, I really don't mind. Take it wherever you need to go with it. And I'll be back in your feed on Thursday.

• 25:02Stephen Stockwell?

  The Case of Alan Jones is produced by ABC Audio Studios and ABC News. This episode was reported by Isabel Rowe, presented by me, Stephen Stockwell. Our supervising producer is Greg Muller and our executive producer is Claire Rollinson. This episode was produced on land at the Gadigal and we're Untrue People.