Pod Insights Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel I Don't Want to Turn Into My Mother About this episode After becoming a mother for the first time, a young woman reflects on the complicated relationship with her own mother. Esther guides her through establishing boundaries with grace, breaking generational cycles, and the importance of self-acceptance.
If you have an individual question you would like to talk through with Esther, please send a voice memo to [email protected] . If you would like to apply for a couples session with Esther, please click here: https://bit.ly/40fGHIU.
Want to learn more? Receive monthly insights, musings, and recommendations to improve your relational intelligence via email from Esther: https://www.estherperel.com/newsletter"
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices
Transcript Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:00 Esther Perel? Sometimes I think a good way to start is for us to listen to your question together and then take it from there.
0:09 Speaker 01 Sure.
0:12 Speaker 01 So my question is, how can I get peace or more peace or get more serene with the fact that instead of becoming more and more empathetic for my mother after I just had a kid, I am actually developing more and more resentment. Everyone keeps saying, since I've become a parent, I now understand mine and I'm so grateful and I have the polar opposites. I feel like I have a conflictual relationship with my mom. I don't think she would think so or she would deny it, let's put it this way. And it was conflictual from my side before I became mom and now it's been a year that
0:57 Speaker 01 I gave birth to my son and every day I keep looking at him and I keep thinking, how come could you educate me like that? Like, no, when I see a vulnerable child in front of me, I understand less and less. And yeah, I find that difficult to process.
1:28 Speaker 02 You know that feeling when the holidays are here at Starbucks?
1:31 Speaker 03 Welcome in. Peppermint mucus for Holly and Ivy? Thank you.
1:37 Speaker 02 Yeah, that one. Together is the best place to be, at Starbucks.
1:44 Speaker 04 When is the end of the day and you're settled into the couch looking for your evening watch? You're not looking for Homework the Movie. You're looking for comfort, excitement, or something in between. Whether you're craving something familiar or in the mood to discover something new, Amazon Prime has what you need, from screen to doorstep. Because it's not just about genres or endless content. It's about finding the thing that matches how you're feeling, whatever the mood. From streaming to fast shipping, it's on Prime.
2:31 Esther Perel? You understand less and less, or you understand more and more?
2:38 Speaker 01 I think I was hoping, when I was pregnant, that maybe I would understand more, and I would become empathetic, or that this would help me resolve some things. I mean, this is definitely not why I had a kid, but I was hoping that in the process, maybe it would get me closer to her. And that's definitely not the case.
2:57 Esther Perel? Tell me a little bit more about your relationship with your mum.
3:03 Speaker 01 She takes a huge space in my head and in my heart, although I get physically more and more away from her. I've moved to multiple countries. I think I could reach the point where I could have a kid not being close to her, because she would have been in the way, one way or another.
3:25 Esther Perel? Then you realised that the umbilical cord is infinitely elastic?
3:30 Speaker 01 Yeah, that's, yeah, definitely. I think what is hard now is I also don't know how to handle her as my son's grandma. And I think that's where it's difficult coming from here. My parents divorced when I was 10, so my dad is out of the picture. So she's huge, and even in my family, she's huge. She's the glue, she's really pivotal for, everything is organised around her.
3:59 Esther Perel? How many kids are you?
4:01 Speaker 01 We're two. So I have an older brother, he's 11 years older than me, but he's from a first marriage. I'm the only child of my parents together.
4:11 Speaker 01 And basically, the education was extremely strict. It's never been about trust, and it didn't evolve with time. So one would think that, you know, me becoming an adult, she could trust me more, or she would be less in...
4:28 Speaker 01 Control and and and authority. And this is still very much a place she wants to have. And I'm, I think I just don't deserve that.
4:38 Esther Perel? So, how does that play itself out? Can you give me an example? You've said three big things, she's the glue.
4:49 Esther Perel? She takes up a lot of space in my interior life.
4:52 Speaker 01 Mm hmm.
4:53 Esther Perel? No matter how many countries I've gone to, she goes with me. You know, she's in an invisible suitcase.
5:00 Speaker 01 Yep.
5:00 Esther Perel? But she's right there. I experience her centrality and her wielding of authority as a lack of trust in me, when in fact, she she succeeded quite well.
5:16 Esther Perel? Meaning, I am as responsible as she was hoping I would be.
5:21 Speaker 01 And more, probably.
5:22 Esther Perel? Mm hmm, voila. Um, so, um. It's not that she doesn't trust you, but that she may not trust herself, that she has done her job well, and that she needs to be told, you've done a really great job. But at this point, you still think that when she tells you what to do, that it means she doesn't trust you?
5:44 Speaker 01 Whatever idea I suggest, whatever I do, it would always be welcome with suspicion.
5:48 Esther Perel? Mm hmm, yes, but there may be better ways to respond, but tell me more, so I I I.
5:55 Speaker 01 I think nowadays, the issue is guilt. Uh, that's that's the main part, it's always.
6:01 Esther Perel? Your guilt.
6:02 Speaker 01 My guilt, my guilt being far away, but still, this is basically the only way I've managed to be to be at peace on a daily basis. But my guilt, my guilt of not wanting her to be close to my kid, because I don't want I don't want her to have that kind of relationship with my kid, this authority, this violence, the the.
6:27 Esther Perel? This violence meaning what?
6:30 Speaker 01 Oh, she would.
6:32 Speaker 01 She would scream, she would be very harsh, very hard. There is, there is no way of, like, everything needs to be absolutely perfect. She definitely doesn't understand that kids are kids and sometimes they don't even make mistakes. It's just they are being kids and she beli- she believes in discipline very strongly.
6:51 Esther Perel? Is that a family tradition?
6:54 Speaker 01 Um, I think so, yeah, I would say so. My mom immigrated, her parents immigrated before. I think there's very much this idea that you need to not make any noise, you need to not be seen and you need to behave absolutely perfectly. Perfection was the only way, basically. And for example, she doesn't have a high school degree, but both my brother and I, we went through high school, we're first generation at uni, he's a teacher. I have two PhDs, like, you know, it's just been endless and it's never enough. It's never been enough. And I just, I don't want that for my son now. I don't want him to, to be seen this way. I see how she is with my son, my brother has two kids.
7:37 Speaker 01 And she still very much believes that her role is to discipline them and not to be like the grandma baking cakes with them, for example. And I, I, I just don't want that.
7:47 Esther Perel? Um.
7:47 Speaker 01 But still, I find that very hard to, to own.
7:53 Esther Perel? What happens when you are with your little boy? How much of that enters that space?
8:01 Speaker 01 It's huge, cause I think to a certain extent, it helps me not making the same mistakes. But then I put myself under a huge amount of pressure to, to not reproduce the same issues. Basically, whenever I would see myself, then wanted to raise my voice a little bit because of boundary being crossed, then I'm instantly thinking, is it wrong? Like, should I do completely the other way?
8:27 Esther Perel? Um. But you also evaluate yourself with the same harshness. That you feel she evaluated you. So she she lives inside of you more than you care to. And so while you emphasize guilt and you emphasize resentment, I'm also hearing fear.
8:48 Speaker 01 Oh, yes, very much.
8:49 Esther Perel? Hmm.
8:50 Speaker 01 Very much.
8:50 Esther Perel? Tell tell me.
8:52 Speaker 01 But just thinking, for example, that she could once hear this conversation makes me feel scared.
8:58 Esther Perel? Of course.
8:58 Speaker 01 Of a reaction.
8:59 Esther Perel? Hmm.
9:00 Speaker 01 Very much.
9:02 Speaker 01 Um.
9:03 Esther Perel? But you did it anyway.
9:05 Speaker 01 Yeah.
9:05 Esther Perel? Why?
9:06 Speaker 01 That's my stuff. Be- because someone has to.
9:10 Speaker 01 Uh, and I'm this person in my family. I'm the one going pushing back, trying to change patterns, trying to change things. And it's very hard. It's very isolating as well. I want my son to have a better relationship. For example, I don't take love for granted from him. Like, I know he owes me nothing. Uh, and I hope that one day when he'll be an adult, he'll choose to keep seeing me. But this is very much the relationship we create, and I don't take that for granted. My mom very much takes that for granted. I've heard her saying things like that, for example, to my partner, saying, you can easily lose your son, but for example, your daughter, you will never lose. And him thinking, whoa, you're very, very far away from the situation.
9:56 Speaker 01 She takes the relationship we have for granted. No matter how far I go, I call less and less. And it's not, it's not to hurt her, it's just really to protect myself. Because any interaction I have with her is difficult.
10:10 Esther Perel? Right.
10:12 Esther Perel? And so what do you want? What would make it better at this moment?
10:20 Speaker 01 Um, I think maybe hearing that you don't, you don't need to be necessarily close to your mom. I think that's one thing where it's hard.
10:31 Esther Perel? Mm hmm.
10:32 Speaker 01 I don't hope that my relationship with my mom is miraculously going to improve. It can improve a little bit. But it's more about how do I just accept that things are just the way they are? How can I also try to explain to my son when he grows up that we might not see grandma more than twice a year because that's best for everyone, or that's what I chose to be best for everyone?
10:57 Esther Perel? So when you say fear and you say there is a lot of fear, fear of what?
11:04 Speaker 01 I think of her completely denying my feeling and the experience. And just staying like, I don't know, very confident of her position and making me feel like I'm the one having a problem or I'm the one inadequate.
11:24 Esther Perel? You know, you described that you have a conflictual relationship with her.
11:29 Speaker 01 Yeah.
11:31 Esther Perel? Means what? Because that's before you had your boy. That's been there for a long time.
11:42 Esther Perel? And the more you react against her, and the more you try to push her away, and the more you realize that she's right inside of you.
11:53 Esther Perel? So you don't have to separate as much from her physically as you may want to separate from the one that lives inside of you.
12:04 Speaker 01 I think since my son was born, I, there have been a lot of memories and feeling that reemerged as well. And I mean, I've been in therapy before. I thought I had done the work, or the most part of the work.
12:17 Esther Perel? Wait till you have a child.
12:19 Speaker 01 Exactly.
12:21 Speaker 01 Now it's not the adult anymore that is just speaking and feeling sad or, um, it's actually also just the kid and I don't know how to help this one.
12:32 Esther Perel? The kid inside of you?
12:34 Speaker 01 Yeah.
12:34 Esther Perel? Um, um.
12:37 Esther Perel? Do you have memories of you and your mother in tenderness or in softness or kindness or playfulness or?
12:46 Speaker 01 Not really, not really. I think she delegated a lot of this to my brother. As I said, he's eleven years older than me, so he was the one playful and my, my parents were so conflictual with each other that there was no space for me. And everything else was then at my grandparents. So I don't have much memories of that and I, I don't think we've never
13:08 Esther Perel? With her?
13:09 Speaker 01 With her.
13:10 Esther Perel? But you had it with your grandparents?
13:12 Speaker 01 Yeah.
13:13 Esther Perel? Because what makes the difference in our lives is when we've had it. Even if we have had it with someone else.
13:24 Esther Perel? That someone loved us tenderly, gently, playfully, sweetly, not necessarily unconditionally, but loved us.
13:35 Speaker 01 Yeah.
13:37 Esther Perel? And that too lives inside of you.
13:41 Esther Perel? And your grandparents may have been very different with you. You're saying yes, so finish the sentence.
13:51 Speaker 01 They were very different with me as grandparents that they were as parents for my mom.
13:56 Esther Perel? Yes.
13:56 Speaker 01 And I think I was hoping this to happen. When I say I was hoping that also with having a kid, we would reconcile some of those things. I was hoping that maybe she would become more tender with my son. And this just doesn't happen. They've seen each other a few times and it just doesn't happen. And I think that's very disappointing for me too.
14:16 Esther Perel? Mm hmm. At all or slowly?
14:21 Speaker 01 I don't know. I don't know yet.
14:24 Esther Perel? Mm hmm.
14:25 Speaker 01 Maybe it's not been enough occasions, opportunities.
14:28 Esther Perel? That's but that the yet is very important here. Your mother was raised with a lot of discipline by people who had certain ideas of how they would establish themselves, of how they would navigate migration and how they would keep their daughter safe. And how they understood gender. And that sentence that you lose your son, but you keep your daughter is pervasive across cultures. This is not an original statement she came up with. And in a way, if your mother looks at it, she probably thinks it worked.
15:14 Speaker 01 I think she does.
15:15 Esther Perel? Right. It worked for her and it worked for you. Look, here is my daughter, how accomplished she is, how she stayed on track, how she became so competent, et cetera. And so to my son. So she's in an interesting paradox because on the one hand, she thinks she succeeded. And on the other hand, you tell her she was off. You confront, you fight, you scream, you this, you that. But in fact, there's a wide gate with an open door. And she walks in and out of your trip, as they say in French, your guts.
15:55 Speaker 01 Yeah.
15:56 Esther Perel? And that is more you're doing. And that's where you can make change.
16:01 Speaker 01 Okay.
16:02 Esther Perel? Because when you make that change, your relationship with her will change.
16:07 Speaker 01 Any hint of how I do that?
16:09 Esther Perel? Yeah. Yeah, I see. But there are two, there are two parts to this, you see? Because you don't want to be like that. But when you make the slightest mistake, what you consider a mistake, or the slightest thing you don't think is the right way to be or the way you want to be, you actually react to yourself exactly the way she reacted to you.
16:38 Speaker 01 Yeah.
16:39 Esther Perel? So there may be some steps in between.
16:51 Esther Perel? We have to take a brief break. So stay with us and let's see where this goes.
17:06 Speaker 05 At Edward Jones, we believe rich is more than caring about the latest and greatest. It's also taking care of what gives your life meaning. That's why your dedicated financial advisor meets you where you are with personalized financial strategies that help protect what matters. So you can preserve your progress while creating a path forward. The key to being rich is knowing what counts. Let's find your rich together. Edward Jones. Member SIPC.
18:07 Speaker 06 Witness the beginning of the revolution. Hey Mitch, you've been trying to take down these games from the start. Filmed for IMAX. Make them remember you. The Hunger Games: Sunrise on the Reaping, November 20th, rated PG-13.
18:26 Esther Perel? We fuss over every single detail of the show. We sort through thousands of applicants each year to pick the stories that we share with you. And the conversations that I have with couples start off as three-hour sessions. And then we thoughtfully edit them to one hour. And then go back and listen to then add the notes. And sometimes even a critique of the session. It's kind of what is in my head as I listen to the session that I didn't say in the session. We create original music and sound design to bring the sessions to life.
19:08 Esther Perel? Where Should We Begin involves a whole team who have been there since the beginning with me to bring my office to you. It's about eight years that we are telling the stories of raw intimate encounter between people that you are invited to listen in like a fly on the wall. It's an expensive and quite time-consuming effort to create Where Should We Begin? And which we gladly undertake because you tell us time and again how valuable these conversations are to you. How they accompany you in critical moments of your life. How you see yourselves even in stories that have nothing to do with yours. And how it has helped you.
19:53 Esther Perel? And that is probably the most affirming thing people can come and tell me. So now we need to ask you for more and for your help. And you can do your part not only by listening, but by joining my Officer subscription on Apple Podcasts. A subscription to Where Should We Begin gives you an ad-free version of these sessions and all the Esther Colings. And more importantly, a way to continue the conversations with me on all the topics that come up in these sessions, from sexlessness, to work conflicts, to infidelity, to secrets, to betrayals, all sorts of relational betrayals, to ending relationships.
20:38 Esther Perel? And we offer follow-ups with the couples because people always ask me, you know, do you see them again? Do you hear from them? Do you know where this session landed? So I go back to the couples and I ask them for a follow-up, which they share with us and which I then share with you. And just like our relationships, what you say isn't as important as what you do. So I've heard you say how much you enjoy the program, how much it adds to your understanding of your own relationships. But now it's time for me to do an offer and an ask, which means click on the subscribe button to the "Where Should We Begin?" show page. I'd love to see you in Esther's office hours.
21:29 Esther Perel? I tend to think that if we want to change the other, one of the shortest routes is to change ourselves.
21:39 Esther Perel? If you can't change what she does,
21:43 Esther Perel? but you can change how you react to what she does, then what she does takes on a whole new meaning.
21:53 Esther Perel? Sometimes when I say that, people say, "But I have to be the one," or "It's all on me again," or, you know. I think it's liberating.
22:03 Speaker 01 To be fair, I've tried. And I think it's not even "I've tried." That's what I do, in terms of the behavior I have. But then it's the internal dialogue that is very difficult.
22:15 Esther Perel? Yes, yes, yes.
22:16 Speaker 01 That's where I'm stuck.
22:17 Esther Perel? You have different values. You don't want to mother the way she did. You have a different sense of child-rearing philosophy and maybe of relational and intimate philosophy. But you are very thoughtful about it. You think about it all the time. You scrutinize yourself as a mom.
22:41 Esther Perel? And so, imagine that whenever you think your mother doesn't trust you, it's often because she's afraid, because she's not necessarily always trusting herself.
22:57 Esther Perel? And she really thinks that she has to hold a tight grip. And so sometimes, something very interesting happens when instead of trying to push mom away, just get out of my business, get out of my space, get out of my head, we in fact say, I probably have never told you that because in effect you have been telling her the whole time that you dislike what she's done.
23:28 Esther Perel? But along that is also to tell her, you know, when I think about where I got my thoughtfulness and my drive and my diligence and my convictions,
23:46 Esther Perel? I look at you too. I may have landed very different convictions and a drive for very different things. I planted different seeds, but I got the seeds from you.
24:00 Speaker 01 It's gonna be a tough one.
24:02 Esther Perel? Well, let's first see if it even resonates for you. I haven't sent you to anything yet. But do you think it all came just from you or in fact? See, we get our resources, our strengths, sometimes from very good places and sometimes from very challenging places. The things we dislike the most are what ended up producing inside of us exactly that. Your mothering style comes from your dislike of her mothering style, but you are both equally convinced.
24:37 Speaker 01 Yeah.
24:39 Esther Perel? Hot or cold?
24:41 Speaker 01 No, pretty hot, pretty hot.
24:43 Esther Perel? You have to do nothing yet, not to worry.
24:47 Speaker 01 Now I'm pretty hot.
24:48 Esther Perel? I wanna see if I can help you step out of your stuckness. Because you've been thinking the same way for a long time. And it's not really helping you. And there are other truths that exist alongside. Mom, I have to thank you, and this is in your head, for some of the things that are central in my life and that I attribute to you. Even though I made different choices about it,
25:23 Esther Perel? the thoughtfulness I put into it, the importance I attach to it, those things come from you. And I want you to know that because I'm things you don't always know and trust that you have done well and that you can resign from your job now.
25:41 Speaker 01 Hmm, I see. I think, I think this I can do.
25:47 Esther Perel? No, no, we're not talking about doing nothing yet.
25:50 Speaker 01 I can, I can.
25:51 Esther Perel? I just want you to react to it. This is.
25:55 Speaker 01 It's hard to say, it's hard to think, to be fair. Because I'm thinking, did it have to be that harsh to reach this point?
26:01 Esther Perel? Yes, yes, yes.
26:02 Speaker 01 So thank is, is a tough one. Acknowledge part of it, I think this I can, I can.
26:08 Esther Perel? Yeah, you're absolutely right. I don't wanna thank her, I just wanna tell her, Mom, I just want you to know that so many of my beliefs, my convictions, and my diligence to abide by them is mirrored on you.
26:24 Speaker 01 I'm trying to think how she would react and I have.
26:26 Esther Perel? No, no, no, it's not about how she would react. I have never seen a parent say, I hate what you just said.
26:34 Esther Perel? Okay, you know, basically, this is what they've been wanting to hear forever, is that it landed somewhere. The main piece is toward you. It gives you a way to experience a positive identification with your mother when what lives inside of you is a multitude of negative identifications. There's a reason to what I'm saying this, it's not just to be sweet. You need to be able to connect with parts of you that resemble her from a place of acceptance, because they're good.
27:10 Speaker 01 Okay.
27:11 Esther Perel? Yeah, just stay with that, it's okay.
27:17 Esther Perel? Because you fight when you're with her and you cry when you're alone.
27:24 Esther Perel? Loosen your jaw for a moment. Just open it and loosen it.
27:31 Esther Perel? Because it's very, very tight. And you hold so much.
27:39 Speaker 01 It goes to places that are just so deep. I'm thinking there are good things then to like as well. That's where it lands and that's, yeah, harsh.
27:52 Esther Perel? Good things inside of you.
27:54 Speaker 01 Yeah.
27:55 Esther Perel? That may have come from not such good things between the two of you.
28:01 Speaker 01 Yeah, I think I'm the first one that needs to be convinced by that and work on that.
28:05 Esther Perel? Hmm. And you can put your other hand over this one. And just massage the heart.
28:13 Esther Perel? Because you're harsh with yourself. This is a very intuitive moment of tenderness with you.
28:21 Speaker 01 Yeah.
28:21 Esther Perel? And you can breathe right into your hands.
28:29 Esther Perel? Where did you just land?
28:32 Speaker 01 It would be fine to be a little bit more gentle with myself. Um, without thinking of her in the mix, but more gentle and, and that it'd be fine if things are not perfect or because, because you can still, yeah, raise someone good even if you don't do things perfectly.
28:55 Esther Perel? Is that, is there a question mark at the end of this?
29:00 Esther Perel? Want to talk to my sons?
29:03 Speaker 01 I think it's not something I'm gonna be able. It's, it's definitely a hard work, but if I can go back to this idea more often, I think life would be a little bit sweeter.
29:13 Esther Perel? One of the ways you go back is you put your hand right. It was you, naturally, your hand came straight to your chest and to your heart. And then you put the other hand over it. And then if you want, you put your hands across your arms. And you do it especially when you do something you don't like. And this holding says, I'm worthy of love even when I fuck up. Basically.
29:45 Esther Perel? I'm a good mom, even if I do something that I don't think is the thing that's gonna land me in the hit parade.
29:55 Esther Perel? No, this thing ain't gonna damage them for the rest of their life. It's not every little boo-boo becomes the determining factor of their future.
30:05 Esther Perel? Because the point is not to replace one perfection with another.
30:09 Speaker 01 No, it's to make life bearable. I know it's still short, but I thought that one year into that I would have let go on this idea of the perfect mom and I still have not, so, and it's
30:21 Speaker 01 not very enjoyable.
30:22 Esther Perel? No.
30:24 Esther Perel? No, plus, here I am, having supposedly a conflictual relationship with my mom, but I'm as loyal as can be.
30:32 Speaker 01 Yeah.
30:36 Esther Perel? See, the change doesn't come from keeping the structure but changing the outcome. I mean, similar rigidity, similar
30:46 Speaker 01 Yeah.
30:46 Esther Perel? dogma, just different religion.
30:49 Speaker 01 Styles, yeah.
30:51 Esther Perel? The goal is to introduce the flexibility into the religion, to highlight the spirit over the law.
31:01 Speaker 01 Understand.
31:06 Esther Perel? We are in the midst of our session. There is still so much to talk about, so stay with us.
31:18 Speaker 05 At Edward Jones, we believe rich is more than caring about the latest and greatest. It's also taking care of what gives your life meaning. That's why your dedicated financial advisor meets you where you are with personalized financial strategies that help protect what matters, so you can preserve your progress while creating a path forward. The key to being rich is knowing what counts. Let's find your rich together. Edward Jones. Member SIPC.
31:48 Speaker 07 Black Friday is happening now at The Home Depot, and we've got just the tree for your style, space, and budget. Keep it merry and bright, then make it yours with ornaments and trimmings for every holiday style. With festive favorites starting at just $49, shop for the perfect tree at the number one Christmas tree retailer. Find the tree that feels just right with low prices guaranteed at The Home Depot. Exclusions apply. Visit homedepot.com/pricematch for details.
32:17 Speaker 06 Welcome to the 50th Hunger Games. Witness the beginning of the revolution.
32:22 Speaker 02 Hey Mitch, you've been trying to take down these games from Star.
32:24 Speaker 06 Filmed for IMAX.
32:26 Speaker 02 Make them remember you.
32:29 Speaker 06 The Hunger Games: Sunrise on the Reaping, November 20th, rated PG-13.
32:35 Esther Perel? Give me a moment when you thought, "I did this well. I like who I was in momland."
32:45 Speaker 01 I think when I just spend time watching my son for who he is, like not trying to impose a structure or an activity, but just being like, "This is you." I just intentionally decide that I'm going to withdraw a little bit and just watch and let him do his thing on his own, on his term, play with the things he wants, and just enjoy watching that, because I find that mesmerizing. And then I just see him explore whenever he does something new that is entirely up to him and that I didn't try to trigger. And I can just see the pride he has.
33:26 Speaker 01 Then that's where I'm like, "Yeah, that's the kind of parent I want to be, allowing that kind of pride to emerge." I see him as a little animal as well, and like, it's not been domesticated, and then you can just see him grow, and I love seeing that. I think there's so much for me to learn there, too.
33:49 Esther Perel? So when I go to observe the animals in the wild...
33:54 Esther Perel? And I bring my open curiosity.
33:58 Speaker 01 Yeah.
34:00 Esther Perel? And I don't try to impose anything because if I am with the animals in the wild, there's nothing for me to impose. And I take my binoculars and I watch and I observe and I am enchanted by the intricate world I am looking at. So many times you will tell yourself, I'm going in the wild. Not I need to take care of my kid, I'm going in the wild.
34:34 Speaker 01 It's nice. I like that.
34:36 Esther Perel? And you take your binoculars with you.
34:40 Esther Perel? And you remember, in the wild, human beings don't control too much.
34:46 Esther Perel? Even adults.
34:49 Esther Perel? And by the way, the wild has existed long before you came along. And it has been knowing how to structure and regulate itself forever. So have babies. They need holding and soothing and they need interpreting of the world they live in.
35:14 Speaker 01 Thank you for this one.
35:16 Esther Perel? Which one?
35:18 Speaker 01 The wild, the wild and the binoculars.
35:20 Esther Perel? Hmm.
35:22 Speaker 01 It's one I will easily remember.
35:25 Esther Perel? Mm hmm, mm hmm. We can have a few more.
35:31 Esther Perel? But I was also noticing how every time you feel that something is given to you and that you are receiving, you're putting your hand right on your heart. And that also can accompany you.
35:48 Esther Perel? A sense of awe, because babies induce a sense of awe in us as well as dread.
35:57 Esther Perel? Goes back and forth sometimes.
36:00 Speaker 01 Those are very clear and very practical things I can hold on to.
36:04 Esther Perel? You like that?
36:07 Speaker 01 I I definitely do like to be anchored to things. Um, otherwise emotions get very intense. And the story in my head goes very, very fast. And and I can easily see myself trying to control things and then remember just go back to the wild. And then regrown.
36:32 Esther Perel? Do you think if you can do more of that with yourself as a mom, that you will be less reactive every time your mom comes closer to you? Because you will actually experience more boundary, which means more clarity around your role and expectations of yourself.
36:57 Speaker 01 I think there's experience, like time and repetition of knowing that what I do with my son is aligned with who I want to be. I I was tempted to say is the right thing, but now I just corrected myself. Um, I think more of this will help me be less shaken whenever my mom questions what I do or suggests very strongly that what I do is not the right way to do.
37:26 Esther Perel? You know, there was a while when I had this intervention that I would do in couples. But I think it can be done probably quite nicely between mom and daughter. And if she criticizes you, you can do the defensive justifying. I know what I'm doing. I'm not twenty years old. Stop budging me, da, da, da. And the reason it isn't useful is because while you're doing that, she's creeping under your skin through the big door.
38:00 Esther Perel? That's part of why it's not useful. It's not that there is anything wrong in what you say. It's just that it doesn't accomplish what you want. It doesn't really establish the boundary. So I used to think, what would be one of these other images like going into the wild?
38:19 Esther Perel? And at the moment, the person criticizes you, her, instead of saying, "Stop criticizing me," or "You're putting me down all the time," you would say, "I really appreciate how you are continuously trying to make me a better person."
38:35 Esther Perel? And if you laugh, that's a very good sign.
38:40 Esther Perel? It's a dedication to see you till today continue to try to make me a better person. I appreciate it. And inside of you, the rest of the sentence is, "And I'll continue to do what I want to do." Then the two shall coexist.
38:58 Speaker 01 Yeah.
38:59 Esther Perel? So instead of you criticizing me, you're putting me down, you're challenging me, you're... It becomes, "You are continuously trying to make me a better person. Thank you."
39:12 Esther Perel? And honestly, there is nothing to answer after that. This is not for her, this is for you. This is a boundary-making for you. She may or may not like the comment, but it usually stops the conversation.
39:28 Speaker 01 Yeah.
39:29 Esther Perel? Without you having to react.
39:33 Speaker 01 Yeah, because so far, I mean, defensive I've been doing for a while and then
39:38 Esther Perel? Right.
39:38 Speaker 01 the alternative has been to just try to escape, but I would still be boiling inside, and I think that's where it's hot. Versus, maybe with this one, we can move on. I mean, we can try to move on from the comment.
39:51 Esther Perel? We can, we need a repertoire of ten of those.
39:54 Speaker 01 Yeah.
39:54 Esther Perel? Okay, because you play different songs at different times. You don't have one song on your playlist.
40:01 Speaker 01 Yeah.
40:02 Esther Perel? So give me one of her comments to you.
40:05 Speaker 01 Actually, it's anything I say with the, "Are you sure? Are you really sure?" Which means you're obviously doing the wrong thing.
40:12 Esther Perel? Mm-hmm. Now, go to the wild and go into that playlist and take it from behind and mold it into something else.
40:26 Speaker 01 I think a real one which would be genuine, because I think it's true is to say, I'm not sure, but I trust that if it's the wrong thing and I need help, I know you'll be there.
40:38 Esther Perel? Wonderful.
40:39 Speaker 01 I think this one is a genuine one, not being manipulative or trying to, yeah. I think this I can say.
40:48 Esther Perel? Great. What I would like you to watch is that when you approach it from this place, your body is not activated. You're not tight and clenched and ready to fight in order to protect yourself, to prevent her from entering when she's seeping through. The purpose of this answer is the boundary, the buffer,
41:18 Esther Perel? the envelope around you. And even when she says, "Tu es sûre?", "You're sure?", you can always say, "That sentence of yours has really been instrumental in building my confidence."
41:33 Speaker 01 Oh.
41:34 Esther Perel? Now, be clear, none of it is manipulative and none of it is wrong, mistaken. In every sentence you make, there is a truth, a truth, there are other truths, but they must be true, and it is. Her questioning of you is in part what has created the drive inside of you. Just?
41:58 Speaker 01 Curate, yeah.
42:00 Esther Perel? We can go in many different directions today, but since you like the practical and the usable, the first part is about getting you unstuck from your stuck. And you say, "What's another way I can deal with this?" And so, instead of getting her off your back, you're going to respond in a way where she's not on your back.
42:29 Speaker 01 I think hard thing is whenever I get compared to her.
42:33 Esther Perel? Mm hmm.
42:34 Speaker 01 And my first reaction is to be upset and then to question, is this true?
42:42 Speaker 01 And I think that's one of the things that is hard to
42:44 Esther Perel? Hmm.
42:44 Speaker 01 accept sometimes, like part of the anxiety, part of the control or some of those things. When I hear you're just like your mom, I'm like, it drives me nuts. And I I would like to reach a point where it doesn't really drive me nuts and I can just think, yes, for those things I took that. Some, I'm very different and that's okay.
43:05 Esther Perel? Who says that?
43:07 Speaker 01 My partner from time to time.
43:10 Esther Perel? He knows how to get to you.
43:11 Speaker 01 Yeah.
43:14 Speaker 01 But what makes me upset is the reaction I have, you know, like think, am I really like my mom? Like, would it be that bad to be like my mom?
43:24 Esther Perel? And then you have to remember the difference between the raw material and the outcome.
43:34 Esther Perel? You want to find some positive identification and it's not hard to find. It's absolutely there. If you have someone who constantly questions you, you become someone who, like you, this is not always the case, who is A, very, very driven, and two, constantly questioning herself.
43:56 Speaker 01 Yeah.
43:57 Esther Perel? And her questioning herself is sometimes annoying and sometimes probably a source of her discernment.
44:04 Speaker 01 Hmm. Yeah.
44:07 Esther Perel? You don't want to turn this into a rosy thing, but you, you have sources of positive identification. If you think about it in a different way than the linear narrow lens. The piece around childrearing is the perfect example. I have a very different philosophy, but I am very convinced about it. I operate from conviction. So does she.
44:37 Esther Perel? We have different convictions. But I definitely know that my conviction came from the same raw material as hers. Even though I wanna do it very differently. Not because it's right, but because it's that way that I wanna try it.
44:57 Speaker 01 I see. Yeah, and she definitely was always a very,
45:03 Speaker 01 um, how to say? She's been a very present mom, not a perfect one, but she's been there.
45:11 Esther Perel? The reason we look for the positive identification is not because you wanna turn your perception of your mother upside down. It's because you want to learn to be kinder with the parts inside of you. It's the self-acceptance. It's not just accepting her. It's that by seeing her differently, you get to accept you more.
45:39 Speaker 01 I've been seeing her from a very negative perspective for a very long time. There's a lot of work to do there.
45:46 Esther Perel? That's why we focus on the self-acceptance and on a retelling of the story in a way where it's not all black and white, good and bad, but where you get to see that some of those things that are, that you've taken, even though you've landed in a very different place, the process that you've engaged with is in part from her. And that's okay. It's actually the way we grow up.
46:19 Speaker 01 Actually, just hearing it's okay feels good.
46:24 Speaker 01 Thank you.
46:26 Esther Perel? You know why all of this is super important? Beyond your own learning to accept you? It's because at some point, your little boy is gonna do things you don't like.
46:43 Esther Perel? Welcome to motherhood.
46:48 Esther Perel? And that's the moment, because you've already intimated that. And if you are into the, you must do my way, because I'm busy proving to my mother that my way is the right way.
47:01 Speaker 01 Yeah, I would like to free him from this.
47:03 Esther Perel? Of course, that's why we're here. I am well aware, but I'm, that's why I'm linking this.
47:11 Speaker 01 Yeah.
47:11 Esther Perel? Because this is how this stuff passes on. This is how the intergenerational thread weaves itself.
47:20 Esther Perel? You, my boy, need to prove that I'm doing the right thing, because that's what I'm busy telling my mother.
47:29 Speaker 01 Yeah.
47:30 Esther Perel? This is where I often say, and then he's recruited for a play that he never auditioned for.
47:37 Speaker 01 Yeah, no, this, this I heard.
47:38 Esther Perel? I like very much, but it's like, it's like, what story has he just entered that he didn't apply to be in?
47:46 Speaker 01 I mean, to be fair, when you say that, what I hear is also like, it must be nice to have a mom that feels like somewhat comfortable in her own skin. And definitely, it wasn't the case for mine. I can try to tell him, be free or be happy. You're perfect the way you are. If I don't do that for myself, how can he believe that?
48:03 Esther Perel? Mm hmm. You got it.
48:07 Speaker 01 Good.
48:09 Speaker 01 There really is twenty more years to go.
48:13 Esther Perel? Oh, I have adults. I'm not done.
48:17 Esther Perel? I have a ton to learn. You know, if it helps you to know that.
48:23 Speaker 01 This is gonna happen anyway.
48:26 Esther Perel? I live the same wild as you,
48:29 Esther Perel? in the wilderness together.
48:32 Esther Perel? It's just so you know, you do some things very differently. And then you realize that you do some things that you had promised yourself you would never do. And you say, can't believe I'm saying this, I'm doing this. But instead of just going and thinking, that's exactly what I should do, you then go and you tell them, I really didn't like that I did this or said this. And that's where you become different.
48:56 Speaker 01 Yeah.
48:57 Esther Perel? Not because you avoided the whole thing, but because you were able to take responsibility about it.
49:04 Speaker 01 Can I call you back in 10 years or 15?
49:06 Esther Perel? We have a date.
49:08 Speaker 01 Okay, great. Thank you very much.
49:11 Esther Perel? You're welcome.
49:16 Speaker 02 If you are a regular listener to Where Should We Begin?, you know that Esther loves to end a session asking people to write to her. She wants to know what stayed with them, what prompted new conversations, what worked, what didn't work. And in the spirit of following up a few weeks after the session that you heard this week with the new mom, she sent us a note and she did start a conversation that she really needed to have with Esther's urging. So if you are interested in where her story is going, you can follow up at Esther's Office Hours on Apple subscriptions later this week.
50:06 Speaker 02 This was an Esther calling, a one-time intervention phone call recorded remotely from two points somewhere in the world. If you have a question you'd like to explore with Esther and could be answered in a 40- or 50-minute phone call, send her a voice message and Esther might just call you. Send your question to [email protected] . Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise. We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut. Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Destri Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Kristin Muller, and Julianne Hatton. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider. And the executive producers of Where Should We Begin?
50:51 Speaker 02 are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, and Jack Saul.
51:03 Speaker 05 At Edward Jones, we believe rich is more than caring about the latest and greatest. It's also taking care of what gives your life meaning. That's why your dedicated financial advisor meets you where you are, with personalized financial strategies that help protect what matters, so you can preserve your progress while creating a path forward. The key to being rich is knowing what counts. Let's find your rich, together. Edward Jones. Member SIPC.
51:33 Speaker 07 Black Friday is happening now at The Home Depot, and we've got just the tree for your style, space, and budget. Keep it merry and bright, then make it yours with ornaments and trimmings for every holiday style. With festive favorites starting at just $49, shop for the perfect tree at the number one Christmas tree retailer. Find the tree that feels just right, with low prices guaranteed, at The Home Depot. Exclusions apply. Visit homedepot.com/pricematch for details.
Previous Grief is Like a Fingerprint Next Did I Get Ghosted or Is He Just Not That Into Me? Page updated November 5, 2026 · transcript and summary are machine-generated