Grief is Like a Fingerprint

This episode contains discussions of a death by suicide. Please take care listening. Recently, on Where Should We Begin, we've been focusing on the things we sweep under the rug in our relationships—conversations that we have a hard time having with ourselves let alone with others. This week, Esther talks to a woman stricken with grief--one year ago, her sister and father died in quick succession. Her remaining family was torn apart and she feels left to pick up the pieces on her own. Esther walks her through how to make space for the immeasurable grief. If you have an individual question you would like to talk through with Esther, please send a voice memo to [email protected]. If you would like to apply for a couples session with Esther, please click here: https://bit.ly/40fGHIU. Esther’s two new courses on desire are now available inside The Desire Bundle. Go to https://www.estherperel.com/course-bundles/the-desire-bundle to learn more about Bringing Desire Back and Playing with Desire. Want to learn more? Receive monthly insights, musings, and recommendations to improve your relational intelligence via email from Esther: https://www.estherperel.com/newsletter Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:03Esther Perel?

  En les derniers épisodes, j'ai été concentrée sur des conversations courageuses, ou des conversations que nous évitons généralement, ou des choses que nous pouvons mettre sous la table, ou des conversations que nous avons dans notre tête, au lieu de parler avec la personne avec qui nous devrions avoir la conversation. Ou des conversations qui sont dans notre tête parce que nous ne pouvons plus en fait parler avec la personne avec qui nous voudrions avoir cette conversation parce qu'elle n'y est plus. Et donc, cet épisode est sur la tristesse, c'est sur la perte. Il se concentre sur la mort d'un père plus âgé, qui semble être une partie du ordre normal des choses. Les parents vont avant leurs enfants.

• 0:48Esther Perel?

  Mais aussi la mort d'un sœur par suicide, ce qui ressemble à une interruption massive dans la chaîne de la vie. Et en lisant cet épisode, je veux que tu te sois préoccupée. Tu sais que c'est sur la tristesse, mais aussi sur la façon dont cela peut en fait devenir pas quelque chose que nous pouvons mettre sous la table et éviter, ou nous laisser détester à l'intérieur, mais que nous commençons à comprendre qu'il y a beaucoup de parties dans une conversation

• 1:29Esther Perel?

  et que nous n'avons parfois qu'une partie de la grande histoire. Et d'autres membres de notre famille ou de notre cercle vont en fait souligner ces parties. Et ce n'est pas parce que nos parties sont les plus véritables et qu'elles devraient changer. C'est parce que la complexité de certaines des grandes expériences humaines sont multifacétées et nous avons chacun un moyen de exprimer une partie de la facette, comme elle devrait être. Donc, lisons.

• 2:10Speaker 01

  You know that feeling when the holidays are here at Starbucks?

• 2:14Speaker 02

  Welcome in. Peppermint mokas for Holly and Ivy? Thank you.

• 2:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, that one. Together is the best place to be, at Starbucks.

• 2:26Speaker 03

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• 3:09Esther Perel?

  Shall we listen to your question? And then if there's anything you want to add to it?

• 3:13Speaker 04

  Sure.

• 3:13Esther Perel?

  We can tweak it? Okay, let's do that.

• 3:15Speaker 04

  Yep.

• 3:18Speaker 04

  The question that I would love to talk to Esther about is understanding grief. And the context is that my dad, two years ago, died. He was 86. And he died of old age and dementia. And then three months later,

• 3:49Speaker 04

  my little sister died

• 3:52Speaker 04

  from suicide. And she was 35. And she has three kids, little kids.

• 4:01Speaker 04

  And so I feel like I've gotten this like crash course in grief since then. And I think that grief is an intelligence and part of life and a part that's not really like exalted or well understood or like acknowledged. At least like in Western society. And so I think it's an intelligence, but then there's this paradox where I find myself trying to connect with other people and like getting out of my shell and sharing about it. But then a lot of sometimes I feel lonelier after that.

• 4:41Speaker 04

  And I I just experienced these feelings that like feel ugly, like I have contempt for other people. And I just think their problems are so stupid or so small. And that they should just get over it and feel bad for me. And because my I just want someone to like give me a gold medal for having the most pain. And that doesn't like seem intelligent to me. And so just kind of that paradox is something that I would love to

• 5:10Speaker 04

  just talk about.

• 5:22Esther Perel?

  Taking a moment to sit with this very profound and big question. What's it like for you to hear it? To hear your own question?

• 5:34Speaker 04

  Um, it makes me sad. It's like I'm listening to someone else. Like I'm disconnected, even though I'm the one that I'm the one whose voice it is.

• 5:45Esther Perel?

  Disconnected?

• 5:46Speaker 04

  Mm hmm.

• 5:47Esther Perel?

  From?

• 5:49Speaker 04

  Pain.

• 5:51Esther Perel?

  So you let her feel the feelings when she was asking the questions?

• 5:56Speaker 04

  Mm hmm.

• 5:57Esther Perel?

  And then another part of you today is

• 6:03Esther Perel?

  trying to hold it together?

• 6:05Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 6:10Esther Perel?

  I had a sentence that I was remembering as I listened to your question. And it's a quote by David Kessler in his book Finding Meaning: The Sixth Stage of Grief. And it says, "Each person's grief is as unique as their fingerprints. But what everyone has in common is that no matter how they grieve, they share a need for their grief to be witnessed. And that doesn't mean needing someone to try to lessen it or reframe it for them. The need is for someone to be fully present to the magnitude of their loss

• 6:53Esther Perel?

  without trying to point out the silver lining."

• 6:59Esther Perel?

  What is your question?

• 7:10Speaker 05

  Why is grief so confusing? And why does it bring out? I think it's brought out the best and the highest in me and other people, and also the worst.

• 7:23Esther Perel?

  Meaning that you get contempt and you get upset when people don't meet you, when you feel that you are in the gulf of this unbearable, unending pain, and they're just living on a different planet?

• 7:40Speaker 05

  Mm-hmm. Or they try to, yeah, like be the silver lining. And I don't usually want a silver lining.

• 7:52Esther Perel?

  I also love the way you said grief is this intelligence. It's telling me a lot of different things. You know, there's another line that David has that I often think in, because it's so... He says, "You don't have to experience grief,

• 8:15Esther Perel?

  but you can only avoid it by avoiding love. Love and grief are inextricably intertwined." So when you think about this unbearable pain, it connects directly to two people that you cared about and loved deeply.

• 8:38Esther Perel?

  And sometimes we think people don't understand my grief because they don't understand the magnitude of my loss.

• 8:46Esther Perel?

  But sometimes it's because they don't understand the magnitude of my love.

• 8:51Esther Perel?

  So you say, I'm surprised that I'm having nasty thoughts, primitive feelings that are unbecoming to me. They're not who I am usually. And this grief is kind of making me feel and say and do things that are unusual for me. What am I learning from it? That is the intelligence, right? It's like, yeah, grief is not always sweet, polished, well behaved by far.

• 9:25Speaker 05

  Uh huh.

• 9:27Esther Perel?

  It puts you in touch with the extremes.

• 9:30Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 9:31Esther Perel?

  Tell me more.

• 9:34Speaker 05

  I almost feel, it's like when I've had those losses,

• 9:43Speaker 05

  part of me died and is like still dying. But then another part of me is like being born. And, and like, uh, my family of origin, I think, died as I knew it. And it's still just kind of like a rubble of people trying to figure out kind of the new, I don't know if it's like a new baby that's been born. We're all just like kind of clumsy and we're all handling it differently. But then I guess the parts that I like or the extreme things that I didn't do before are that I'm, I just have like a new sensitivity

• 10:23Speaker 05

  to other people, to like to people's pain, to people's just like how they are. I notice things, like I notice faces and like facial features. And I, I like to think that I like scroll on my phone less. You know, and it's al- it is like this primitive thing. I notice animals. I notice like the wind. I never noticed that before.

• 10:52Esther Perel?

  Hmm hmm.

• 10:53Speaker 05

  But.

• 10:53Esther Perel?

  I have developed an uncanny awareness in the details of the world around me.

• 11:04Speaker 05

  Mm hmm.

• 11:04Esther Perel?

  The human world, the animal world, the natural world, the spiritual world. I notice absence and I notice presence.

• 11:15Speaker 05

  Mm hmm.

• 11:15Esther Perel?

  I notice joy. I notice pain and suffering. I notice calm. I notice agitation. I notice security. I notice fear.

• 11:28Speaker 05

  But it, well, yeah, and the, like, the mystery. I don't think I've ever been one that accepts, yeah, a lot of mystery, but there's just so much uncertainty and impermanence and it's beautiful and it's also just painful sometimes.

• 11:50Esther Perel?

  Incredibly fragile.

• 11:52Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 11:53Esther Perel?

  Who is left in the family of origin? And who is the chosen family? There may be more than one.

• 12:00Speaker 05

  Yes, the chosen family, my husband and two children. Um, I have a toddler and then a seven-year-old and then my family of origin, my mom and two older brothers.

• 12:18Esther Perel?

  Mm hmm. And are there other members of the chosen family that were very connected to your family of origin? Extended family, friends, neighbors?

• 12:30Speaker 05

  Yeah, yes.

• 12:33Esther Perel?

  And have there been rituals that have brought all the people together? Because the person died, but the relationship didn't die.

• 12:43Speaker 05

  Mm hmm.

• 12:46Speaker 05

  The only thing I can think of is the funeral.

• 12:49Esther Perel?

  And since the funeral?

• 12:51Speaker 05

  No.

• 12:52Esther Perel?

  Neither for your sister nor for your father?

• 12:55Speaker 05

  No.

• 12:57Esther Perel?

  And is that something you feel a need to do?

• 13:01Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 13:02Esther Perel?

  Okay, for both of them, separately, together, one of them?

• 13:08Speaker 05

  Probably both of them.

• 13:11Esther Perel?

  Separately or together?

• 13:14Speaker 05

  Separately. I chose to not attend a family reunion that was like six months after she died. They like released lanterns, so I guess everyone went to that except for me and my chosen family.

• 13:30Esther Perel?

  Why not?

• 13:31Speaker 05

  Because it was too painful to think about being with everyone and I felt too reactive. I'm not sure why, other than my gut just said like, I can't go right now.

• 13:48Esther Perel?

  But you were not against it happening, you just didn't feel, you felt too bereft to be there?

• 13:54Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 13:57Esther Perel?

  And would your family understand if you said, I think I'm, I need something now?

• 14:04Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 14:04Esther Perel?

  And I would love for us to be on this together?

• 14:09Esther Perel?

  And what would you want it to be? If you could design the ritual? Rituals is one of the ways that every culture and civilization has dealt with loss and mourning and grief.

• 14:27Speaker 05

  For my sister, it would be something with dancing.

• 14:34Speaker 05

  And just kind of like a wild.

• 14:37Esther Perel?

  Party?

• 14:38Speaker 05

  Party, yeah. With like karaoke, she'd always, you know. We are opposites in many ways, but she was always up for anything. Any rest, she'd go up to any restaurant in front of any number of people and just sing her heart out. She didn't care what people thought. In one way. So yeah, something like that.

• 15:07Esther Perel?

  We have to take a brief break, so stay with us and let's see where this goes.

• 15:27Esther Perel?

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• 16:10Esther Perel?

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• 16:33Esther Perel?

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• 17:16Esther Perel?

  If you're ready to launch your business before Black Friday, go to Shopify.com/Esther to start your free trial. That's Shopify.com/Esther. Go to Shopify.com/Esther today to hear your first...

• 17:34Esther Perel?

  Support for Where Should We Begin comes from Shopify. Starting a business requires you to be resourceful, and the more you flex that muscle, the more you start to recognize growth opportunities, like using Shopify to launch your business. And that's especially true if you launch with Black Friday approaching, so you can take advantage of the extra online traffic. Shopify is the platform for a record-breaking, reliable, holiday-selling season for businesses at every stage. Their pre-built website themes and AI site builder make it easy to launch a beautiful, professional-looking website. And you don't even need to touch a line of code to do it. They also have a mobile app that lets you run your online store from anywhere. If you're ready to launch your business before Black Friday,

• 18:20Esther Perel?

  go to Shopify.com/Esther to start your free trial. That's Shopify.com/Esther. Go to Shopify.com/Esther today to hear your first...

• 18:48Esther Perel?

  Is her death by suicide a surprise for you? Or something you worried and anticipated? Or where does it sit with you?

• 19:02Speaker 05

  I mean, it was fully on all of our radar.

• 19:09Speaker 05

  She'd been in the hospital. She was on all kinds of meds. So it didn't shock me, on one hand, but on the other hand, it's shocking.

• 19:22Esther Perel?

  You're seeing something as you're saying this.

• 19:27Speaker 05

  Um, I don't think. Oh, I know she didn't want to die. I just think she was too sick and she.

• 19:39Speaker 05

  She wanted to be out of pain.

• 19:44Speaker 05

  And so I think she must have. Well, I don't know. This is, I'm just giving my meaning to the story, but the only thing that makes sense is that she had to have. Believed that everyone would be better.

• 19:59Speaker 05

  If she weren't here. You know, this isn't the first time. She'd had really. You know, kind of scary depression. She'd been suicidal before.

• 20:12Speaker 05

  But it had worked out. And this time it didn't.

• 20:15Esther Perel?

  Mm hmm. And you. Have tried to tell her many times. This idea that we would be better off without you is so off.

• 20:27Speaker 05

  Mm hmm.

• 20:29Esther Perel?

  I miss you.

• 20:31Speaker 05

  Mm hmm.

• 20:31Esther Perel?

  I miss you deeply every day.

• 20:35Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 20:36Esther Perel?

  Do you talk to her?

• 20:40Speaker 05

  No, I have written. A few letters to her and.

• 20:46Speaker 05

  Uh, my therapist like invited me to just have a list of unanswerable questions.

• 20:54Speaker 05

  Haven't done it in a while.

• 20:55Esther Perel?

  Mm hmm.

• 20:58Speaker 05

  But I, I mean, I see her. I see her kids. She has. Three little girls.

• 21:03Esther Perel?

  Mm hmm.

• 21:04Speaker 05

  And I talk to them.

• 21:06Esther Perel?

  And you talk about her?

• 21:08Speaker 05

  Yeah. Yeah, I do. I try to. Be present with her kids. I know that she. Like when she was healthy. You know, she could be present with them and she, she was obsessed with them in a way that any mom. Understands. And even, you know, at the end. It just was so disturbing because she would. Yeah, she couldn't be present with them. Her body was there, but. She didn't want to be there and. I'm sure that her kids at some level. Knew that. So I try to make eye contact with them and just be engaged with them.

• 21:49Esther Perel?

  And do karaoke?

• 21:52Speaker 05

  Yes, I haven't done karaoke, but I should for that.

• 21:55Esther Perel?

  And you don't? With them.

• 21:57Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 21:59Speaker 05

  Yeah, that's what she would do.

• 22:00Esther Perel?

  Mm hmm.

• 22:02Speaker 05

  Her death is such a, seems just so catastrophic that I don't always remember my dad. He could, he died, almost because, I mean, being more aware, just like

• 22:17Speaker 05

  feeling almost primitive, like it's expected that your parent will die before you. My dad was fifty when I was born, and so, you know, he already, people thought he was my grandpa growing up. And I just, I think I knew inside he was gonna die. But then the out of order-ness and that she, my sister was younger, she was the youngest. It's just so shocking and almost makes my dad's death look like happy.

• 22:46Esther Perel?

  His passing is the, is in the normal order of things.

• 22:50Speaker 05

  Mm hmm.

• 22:52Esther Perel?

  But hers is a, an abrupt interruption.

• 22:57Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 22:58Esther Perel?

  Do you have witnesses who can hold you, who can just let you go through it without

• 23:07Esther Perel?

  rationalizing, without trying to make it into a lesson or?

• 23:14Speaker 05

  Yeah, I do.

• 23:15Esther Perel?

  Or without trying to minimize it for that matter, who just know this is so painful, acute at first and lonely, very, very lonely. Cause it feels like no one can reach you there. And it doesn't end, as in it's not something one gets through.

• 23:38Esther Perel?

  We become bigger and we learn to include it inside ourselves, to hold it. But we expand around it rather than getting through it. And it takes time and it takes rituals

• 24:00Esther Perel?

  that celebrate her, that mourn her, that give meaning to who she was, not just to her absence. And some of those primitive feelings you have are all quite normal. Because we are angry that this happened, it's unfair, it's stupid. It feels, how can I accept this?

• 24:26Esther Perel?

  Can't be true. I still can't believe it. So we have the denial. We have the anger. We have the problem to accept it. And then we do. Yes, she was struggling. And it wasn't totally surprising. But, but if this, if that. And we circle around and circle around. And if she was here today, she would say and she would think and she would smile and she. And so she goes, but the relationship stays. It's actually not that confusing. As you were asking.

• 25:04Esther Perel?

  It's about, wow, this thing takes me to places I never knew existed inside of me. From the acute awareness to what? You tell me.

• 25:18Speaker 05

  Well, I don't know, rage.

• 25:20Esther Perel?

  Uh huh. And the rage says.

• 25:24Speaker 05

  My pain hurts more than yours. Or, um, yeah, your problems are small.

• 25:32Esther Perel?

  Uh huh.

• 25:32Speaker 05

  You bug the shit out of me. Go away.

• 25:36Esther Perel?

  Good. Keep going. There's many parts in you. This is one, the rage. He looks at people. He says, uh, this is what makes you struggle.

• 25:47Speaker 05

  Uh huh.

• 25:49Esther Perel?

  Want to, want me to show you mine?

• 25:51Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 25:54Esther Perel?

  But then the same, another part in you, sorry, not the same, another part in you recognizes those who don't know sometimes how to express it. And zooms into that pain and says, I see you. That's part of that hyper-awareness.

• 26:17Esther Perel?

  Right?

• 26:18Speaker 05

  Mm-hmm.

• 26:20Esther Perel?

  What does that part say?

• 26:23Speaker 05

  That this pain, like, your pain's mine.

• 26:27Esther Perel?

  Yeah. Is there another part?

• 26:32Speaker 05

  Um, that, yeah, this is this like beautiful dimension I've never known about. And sometimes I wouldn't mind not knowing about it.

• 26:44Speaker 05

  And in a way, like,

• 26:48Speaker 05

  the realization that I don't think any of us have as long as we think sometimes. And so, just, you know, less pretending, more honesty.

• 27:00Esther Perel?

  Mm-hmm. So I don't just feel the fragility, I also feel the preciousness.

• 27:09Speaker 05

  Mm-hmm.

• 27:09Esther Perel?

  Treasure it, savor it.

• 27:13Esther Perel?

  Don't take it for granted, don't waste it.

• 27:18Esther Perel?

  Don't just walk like a ghost through it.

• 27:24Esther Perel?

  Value it, appreciate it, hold on to it, fight for it, keep going.

• 27:32Speaker 05

  Um, there's, um, an author, Julian Barnes, do you know him?

• 27:36Esther Perel?

  Mm-hmm.

• 27:38Speaker 05

  You probably know the book that this is from, but he has a metaphor about that we emerge, we don't emerge from grief like a train coming out of a tunnel, strong and fast, and into the light. We are more like a seagull that comes out of an oil slick, hard and feathered for life.

• 28:01Speaker 05

  And sometimes I feel like the train. And sometimes I feel like the seagull.

• 28:07Esther Perel?

  Hmm.

• 28:10Esther Perel?

  It's beautiful.

• 28:16Esther Perel?

  We are in the midst of our session. There is still so much to talk about, so stay with us.

• 28:28Esther Perel?

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• 29:12Esther Perel?

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• 29:35Esther Perel?

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• 30:47Speaker 03

  Black Friday is happening now at The Home Depot, and we've got just the tree for your style, space, and budget. Keep it merry and bright, then make it yours with ornaments and trimmings for every holiday style. With festive favorites starting at just $49, shop for the perfect tree at the number one Christmas tree retailer. Find the tree that feels just right with low prices guaranteed at The Home Depot. Exclusions apply. Visit homedepot.com/pricematch for details.

• 31:22Esther Perel?

  We fuss over every single detail of the show. We sort through thousands of applicants each year to pick the stories that we share with you. And the conversations that I have with couples start off as three-hour sessions, and then we thoughtfully edit them to one hour, and then go back and listen to then add the notes, and sometimes even a critique of the session. It's kind of what is in my head as I listen to the session that I didn't say in the session. We create original music and sound design to bring the sessions to life.

• 32:04Esther Perel?

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• 32:49Esther Perel?

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• 33:34Esther Perel?

  And we offer follow-ups with the couples because people always ask me, you know, do you see them again? Do you hear from them? Do you know where this session landed? So I go back to the couples and I ask them for a follow-up, which they share with us and which I then share with you. And just like our relationships, what you say isn't as important as what you do. So I've heard you say how much you enjoy the program, how much it adds to your understanding of your own relationships. But now, it's time for me to do an offer and an ask, which means click on the subscribe button to the Where Should We Begin? show page. I'd love to see you in Esther's Office Hours.

• 34:24Esther Perel?

  Do you want the ritual about your sister to be you with her and a few of the people who knew her? Or would you actually like, I want to bring together other people who have experienced loss?

• 34:43Speaker 05

  I think the circle of people that knew her.

• 34:46Esther Perel?

  Okay.

• 34:47Speaker 05

  There's a lot of them.

• 34:48Esther Perel?

  Okay. And what has stopped you from doing it, if anything?

• 34:54Speaker 05

  Contempt and rage at them, some of them.

• 34:58Esther Perel?

  You say this with a smile.

• 35:01Speaker 05

  It's embarrassing, but there have been certain people that have been great. And other people that I know would want to be included.

• 35:13Speaker 05

  And I don't know why, it's like I'm a predator that's like picked them because I, you know, I feel offended at things that they've said. Or that they've dealt with this differently. So I get in by everyone but them.

• 35:29Esther Perel?

  So the part of you that has experienced this peaks of contempt, give me one.

• 35:38Speaker 05

  Um, someone right after she died telling me that she knew that my sister was in the arms of Jesus. Just, I don't know, it hit something in me. And felt like I just wish she hadn't have said anything.

• 35:59Esther Perel?

  What did it mean for you, this, this?

• 36:01Speaker 05

  It meant, it meant for me that somehow it's good that people are with Jesus instead of with their families, with their young children. People that depend on them.

• 36:13Speaker 05

  And I know she didn't mean like this, but it suggests that somehow this was determined.

• 36:20Esther Perel?

  Meant to be?

• 36:21Speaker 05

  Yeah, determined. This was part of the plan. And that's probably not what this person meant, but it just bristled me. I want to be someone who can just understand that people say things like that. And they still should be able to be afforded like their own space.

• 36:46Esther Perel?

  Maybe, maybe you will with time. But not yet, or not when this was said. Because this, the part of you that responded, that rage part, that part that says, how dare you make this into something that was almost a good thing to happen?

• 37:11Esther Perel?

  No, at the beginning you don't accept. So you don't accept and the anger part and the contempt, they all can come together to basically say, do not try to make this into something that had a meaning or a purpose. Makes sense. At some point, maybe later, somebody says something and you say, that's their view, that's how they go through it. But at first, it is a combination of emotions that knock at each other. It's a combustion. It's confusing.

• 37:54Esther Perel?

  It's not really confusing, but it feels confusing because it's intense, because it's a bunch of stuff coming from left field that you never knew existed inside of you. Like when we love.

• 38:07Speaker 05

  Like you do things, yeah, do things that are not logical.

• 38:11Esther Perel?

  Yep. And when we face sudden loss, it's similar things can happen to us. So I see this as developmental. I see this as part of the arc of the experience. I don't see this as, this is it. You're not today where you were six months ago. You won't be in the same place six months from now. But you do want to create the ritual that you didn't have it in you at the time to participate in. And maybe you'll have one every year on her birthday and you'll let a dove go out or you'll do something that symbolizes

• 38:55Esther Perel?

  all these things that don't have to be said in words. It can have music, it can have dance, it can have drums, can have people stand up in a circle when they have something to say and they're moved and called to say something and then sit back. And every time you see her three girls, you will, you know, you will see her in part, not only, but you'll see her and you are one of the main people through whom they will get to know her. Is she talked about? Is she spoken about between mom and your brothers and you?

• 39:36Speaker 05

  Not

• 39:39Speaker 05

  as much as I want, I think. I'm usually one to bring her up.

• 39:43Esther Perel?

  Mm hmm.

• 39:45Speaker 05

  I brought her up recently at this social event and I'm I'm always unsure what my family thinks.

• 39:55Esther Perel?

  Mm hmm.

• 39:57Speaker 05

  But I think the worst thing is just to not even mention her, pretend like she never existed.

• 40:05Speaker 05

  I don't think they think that, but there's kind of an awkwardness when you're in settings or when people ask how many people are in your family or that's a chance to bring her up. So I usually, yeah, so this time I said, we have a baby sister who's in heaven. And then I was too nervous to look at my family.

• 40:25Esther Perel?

  When you come together for the holidays this year, how how long will it have been?

• 40:31Speaker 05

  Uh, a year and a half since she died.

• 40:34Esther Perel?

  Okay.

• 40:36Esther Perel?

  We all have experienced her loss in our own way, like our own fingertips. But we can all be witnesses for each other in how we each are living with this loss. Shall we take a moment and just kind of check in with each other, a pulse check? Something, where are you at with the big changes that we have just faced in our family? I know that we are not typically a family that speaks about these things. But I also think that we have not typically experienced any of these things. And therefore, we need

• 41:21Esther Perel?

  to breathe together, so to speak, to breathe her presence, her absence, as well as that. And acknowledge it and celebrate them and mention them and have them be absent, present, present, absent.

• 41:37Speaker 05

  Mm hmm. Last Thanksgiving.

• 41:41Speaker 05

  Her husband would talk about her and even though they were maybe stories that didn't highlight her strengths, it just felt good. That we haven't forgotten her.

• 41:54Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 41:54Esther Perel?

  Your family doesn't have to live like you. They don't have to feel the same as you do. There needs to be room for each person. Those who want to speak, those who don't, those who want to cry, those who don't, those who cry with others, those who cry alone.

• 42:12Speaker 05

  We're all gonna be different.

• 42:15Esther Perel?

  Each one highlighting different ways to experience and express grief. The most common one is those who say, let's remember, and those who say, we don't have to bring it up each time. Those who say, let's move on, and those who say, how can you? And they seem to each say, cancel each other out, when in fact, both of these exist inside each of us. But in a family, sometimes instead of holding them inside of us and holding those tensions and those polarities, they get outsourced onto other people.

• 42:51Esther Perel?

  Yeah. So one person, one brother, becomes the one who says, oh, come on. You know, let's only talk about the children, the little ones, the future. And the other one says, but what about the past? But in fact, they absolutely need each other. They are part of the holistic experience.

• 43:12Esther Perel?

  Holding on, letting go, remembering,

• 43:17Esther Perel?

  forgetting, the past, the future, the joy of her life, the sadness of her death, her strength, her illness. If you fight your brothers, you do to them what you don't like people doing to you.

• 43:34Esther Perel?

  Because people become judgmental over how the other person is dealing with it, rather than, hey, we each have a different way. We are different people. We're holding on. Our grief is like our fingertips, or fingerprints, sorry. And I love that image, because the fingerprints are as personal and unique to you.

• 43:57Esther Perel?

  So, tell me about your fingerprints, I'll tell you about mine.

• 44:03Speaker 05

  And then just listening.

• 44:04Esther Perel?

  Yeah, make room. It's the collective of each person's individual way that actually begins to resemble the multiple parts of this experience. No one has to take care of all the pieces.

• 44:24Esther Perel?

  One person makes sure to bring it up at the table and the other one makes sure that we don't spend a whole evening about it. Uh huh. And instead of getting annoyed with the one who changed topic, it actually is good because it says, "We include, but we also grow." Loss, you know, we tend to often talk about the trauma of the loss and we don't always highlight that there is much more post-traumatic growth than there is actually post-traumatic stress. In many instances, this being maybe one of them.

• 45:02Speaker 05

  So when I find myself being, like when I look back since she's died, I think my level of critique of certain people or certain things is just like 10 out of 10. And I hate well in the moment, it feels good, but I hate it. And so

• 45:23Speaker 05

  I don't understand that. It's because I'm critiquing myself, but I'm pinning it on other people.

• 45:29Esther Perel?

  They are often expressing the parts of this that I do not express.

• 45:38Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 45:39Esther Perel?

  And that is not, that is quite good. Because it's the collective of all the pieces that creates the universal human experience around grief. Who knows what your hole and your loss and your

• 45:58Esther Perel?

  gap and your emptiness, but we all hover around the same area. We know, I know, that you know, that I know, that you know.

• 46:12Esther Perel?

  We don't have to compare, compete, who's the greater victim, who's suffered more, all of that. And so in the family, people will express different parts of the experience. It's the role distribution around it.

• 46:32Esther Perel?

  This happens around many things in a family. But in fact, they all belong together. If you didn't have one brother who said, "Can we talk about something else?" You would have to deal with the part inside of you that has to begin to think, when is it okay to talk about something else? Or even necessary?

• 46:55Esther Perel?

  Because the complexity of these experiences is that they hold contradictions and multitudes.

• 47:04Esther Perel?

  Shall we stop here?

• 47:06Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 47:07Esther Perel?

  Does that feel like a good place?

• 47:09Speaker 05

  Uh huh, yeah.

• 47:10Esther Perel?

  Okay. I wish you special holidays.

• 47:16Speaker 05

  Thank you.

• 47:17Esther Perel?

  And I think you're going into the holidays with this, hopefully with this new frame in mind.

• 47:25Speaker 05

  Yeah. Okay.

• 47:27Esther Perel?

  All right?

• 47:28Speaker 05

  Thank you so much.

• 47:28Esther Perel?

  You're welcome. Bye bye.

• 47:30Speaker 05

  Have a good day. Bye.

• 48:10Speaker 06

  Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise. We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut. Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Destri Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Kristen Muller, and Julianne. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider. And the executive producers of Where Should We Begin are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, and Jack Saul.

• 48:49Speaker 03

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