Say More - Esther Perel on Fantasy with Gillian Anderson

Recently, on Where Should We Begin, we've been focusing on the things we sweep under the rug in our relationships—conversations that we have a hard time having with ourselves let alone with others. Oftentimes, our sexual fantasies exist in this space and reveal us at our most bare, showing us not just what we want sexually, but what we want emotionally and psychologically. Even with a loving partner, it can be difficult to share our most personal sexual fantasies. There's often shame, stigma, and a fear of being judged. Award-winning actress, Gillian Anderson, joins Esther to discuss Want, her collection of women's anonymous fantasies from around the world. To purchase Gillian Anderson's new book, Want: https://bit.ly/3O8CVcZ If you have an individual question you would like to talk through with Esther, please send a voice memo to [email protected]. If you would like to apply for a couples session with Esther, please click here: https://bit.ly/40fGHIU. Esther’s two new courses on desire are now available inside The Desire Bundle. Go to https://www.estherperel.com/course-bundles/the-desire-bundle to learn more about Bringing Desire Back and Playing with Desire. Want to learn more? Receive monthly insights, musings, and recommendations to improve your relational intelligence via email from Esther: https://www.estherperel.com/newsletter" Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Esther Perel?

  Recently, on Where Should We Begin? We've been focusing on secrets, the stuff we push under the rug, conversations that we are allowed to have, and certainly not in the public square. The forbidden, the hidden, the obfuscated, the unexplored, the unarticulated. And one such topic is the subject of erotic fantasies, especially erotic fantasies of women. The book that very much opened up this subject in my generation was Nancy Friday, My Secret Garden.

• 0:41Esther Perel?

  The book that is now on many people's shelves is by Gillian Anderson, who's an award-winning film and television and theatre actor. But she became very much a household name in my house, for sure, when she played sex therapist Dr. Jean Milburn on the Netflix series Sex Education. And her book is called Want. It's an exploration of hundreds of anonymous women who have sent in the scripts, the descriptions of their own erotic longings, of their sexual imaginings.

• 1:24Esther Perel?

  And one of them is actually by Gillian Anderson herself. So I wanted to have a conversation about the power of fantasy, the intricacy, the irrationality, the secret logic of the erotic mind. Because it actually is one of the most fascinating parts of our minds and our bodies, is how we conjure up those fantasies, those plots, those sensations, those elixirs that are all meant to heighten pleasure and excitement.

• 2:04Esther Perel?

  Sexual fantasies are sometimes so counterintuitive in some ways, so counter to our conscience, to the way we see ourselves, to our values, that they can baffle us. So, we talk together about how we make sense of what we call sexual fantasies, how we come to understand them, how culturally bound they are, how we don't always want to experience them in real life, for sure, and what it means when fantasy is as if, it's play, it's pretend, but it's a powerful production in our mind.

• 2:47Esther Perel?

  So, I'm inviting you into my office to meet me and Gillian Anderson as we talk about sexual fantasies of women.

• 2:59Speaker 01

  You know that feeling when the holidays are here at Starbucks?

• 3:03Speaker 02

  Welcome in. Peppermint mucus for Holly and Ivy? Thank you.

• 3:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, that one. Together is the best place to be, at Starbucks.

• 3:16Speaker 03

  I'm Ina Garten, and each week on Happy Hour, I invite new and old friends for a drink and a fun conversation at my kitchen table in New York City. On this week's episode, I'm joined by Jennifer Garner. We talk all about what it means to be a good friend, Jen's encyclopedic knowledge of my recipes, and the Paris tour I put together for Jen and her daughter. New episodes of Happy Hour are available every Wednesday. You can watch on YouTube or listen wherever you get your podcasts. Cheers.

• 3:55Speaker 04

  Women who are reading the book are starting to ask themselves, "Am I getting what I want sexually with my partner in our relationship, or my multiple partners, or whatever their life circumstances are at that particular moment?" And if they're observing their feelings around it, around the thought of asking for it...

• 4:22Esther Perel?

  Meaning, do I dare to ask for what I want?

• 4:24Speaker 04

  Do I dare to ask for what I want?

• 4:26Esther Perel?

  And do I know?

• 4:27Speaker 04

  And if I, do I know, do I dare to ask? If I don't know, why? If I don't dare to ask, why?

• 4:36Esther Perel?

  Mm-hmm.

• 4:36Speaker 04

  If I do dare to ask, but I'd rather not waste time, not, um, bother, it's too complicated. We've tried, it didn't work, you know, but it just opens up the conversation. And women are also starting, as they are engaging with the stories in the book. You know, you get quite a lot from the women who have written in. It's not just the fantasy. It is, I've been married for forty years. He hasn't touched me for thirty, you know, or whatever. Or I am in a lesbian relationship for all intents and purposes, but my fantasies are always about men.

• 5:15Speaker 04

  You know, just there's a lot of variation and you get, women are really identifying with the human beings writing in and identifying with particular aspects of their real lives, their needs, their desires, the complexities of both the fantasy, the desire and the status quo. And so it's just bringing up a lot of questions. And it's also, I've heard from a lot of women that they're making life changes

• 5:58Speaker 04

  because of what the book is bringing up for them.

• 6:01Esther Perel?

  Because, I think, what I was thinking when I was reading is, you get, first of all, a theory of desire. How is female desire constituted? And multiple ways, it's not just one, one way, but how is it articulated? Um, when, and I, when I say desire, I define it as to own the wanting.

• 6:22Speaker 04

  Hmm.

• 6:24Esther Perel?

  But that's one piece, but I think the bigger piece that I have always thought about and that I find confirmed here is that fantasies are not just sexual scripts or sexual enhancements and turn-ons. Fantasies actually reveal you at your most bare. And they tell truths about you that are hard to get at otherwise. And they reveal not just what you want sexually, but actually what you really want emotionally and psychologically.

• 6:58Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 6:59Esther Perel?

  And once you understand that it is a coded language for some of our deepest emotional needs, wishes, fears, aspirations, rather than just plain sex, then it reveals you in a way that is irresistible.

• 7:16Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 7:17Esther Perel?

  Once you find yourself with a huge gap between the permissible and the possible,

• 7:22Speaker 04

  Yep.

• 7:23Esther Perel?

  then you cannot stay in your seat.

• 7:25Speaker 04

  No, and you can't unsee that.

• 7:27Esther Perel?

  You can't, that's it, yeah.

• 7:29Speaker 04

  Yeah, I think that's what people are finding.

• 7:32Esther Perel?

  And I always said to my students, I say, don't ask people what they do. Ask them what they think about while they're doing it.

• 7:42Speaker 04

  That's interesting.

• 7:43Esther Perel?

  Because what they do, okay, they'll describe, we go this, we start, we do that, da-da. But what they think about with their partners, not when they're in the fantasy itself, but what is it that they're actually thinking about? And who are they thinking about?

• 7:58Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 7:58Esther Perel?

  And what is the creative resource of a fantasy? I mean fantasies are enormously creative and imaginative plots,

• 8:07Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 8:08Esther Perel?

  coded, and they can heal you, and they can repair, and they can compensate, and they can transform. I mean, they are that powerful. Because a good fantasy states the problem and offers the solution.

• 8:25Speaker 04

  That's interesting.

• 8:26Esther Perel?

  Right? If in my fantasy, I'm irresistible, you know, I may often find that in my real life, I'm slightly more insecure and not so bold. If in my real life, I have a hard time asking for what I want, I can set up a fantasy where I'm with someone who knows exactly what I want. I don't even have to ask.

• 8:45Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 8:46Esther Perel?

  I don't even have to know, because they know better than me. It states the problem and it offers the solution.

• 8:53Speaker 04

  Can someone learn to fantasize? Can it be learned?

• 8:57Esther Perel?

  Yes. Yes, like, I think that if people read stories here, they will have some stories, they say, hmm, I'm curious about that, what would that be? Or suddenly they find themselves, you know, moist, titillated, aroused, and they say, and they suddenly have to notice that that actually speaks to them.

• 9:18Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 9:18Esther Perel?

  In others, they feel, ew, gross, crush, you know, don't wanna touch that. So, it's a little bit like standing in front of a buffet and deciding which foods, which tastes, which textures, which smells appeal to you. And then from there, it opens up inside of you. Fantasies are kind of the combination of your personal history and a broad collective sweep of the cultural imagination. So, a lot of fantasies, you watch them in movies, and you say, ah, in fact, you don't even, it's not consciously, but you register, this is a beautiful moment where this person experiences something at the hands of this other person.

• 10:03Esther Perel?

  Sometimes you read, and then you realize, you know, the next time around, when you are pleasing yourself, you're actually going back to that thing that you read back then. Most fantasies are discovered, stumbled upon, or learned.

• 10:20Speaker 04

  What percentage of fantasies have roots in childhood experience in some way? Are most of our fantasies linked back to something that's happened? Either a first love, or a trauma, or a, you know, there's, cause.

• 10:38Esther Perel?

  Many, but I don't think it's, it's very broad. Yes, you can have experiences in childhood of delight, of play, and you remember of biking, of sitting on a horse, of paddling, of sitting on your granddad's lap, or your father's and mother's lap, with lots of, it's not just trauma.

• 11:01Speaker 04

  But for instance, there are a few fantasies, or at least in the initial submissions, there were a few fantasies, uh, women imagining having sex while wearing a diaper, a nappy.

• 11:13Esther Perel?

  Yes, because.

• 11:16Esther Perel?

  It's been twenty years I've been kind of tracking this subject.

• 11:20Speaker 04

  Hmm.

• 11:20Esther Perel?

  The erotic mind.

• 11:21Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 11:21Esther Perel?

  The erotic imagination. And its amazing ability to do a lot of things. It's it's unique. Because most other fantasies, if I say I want to go to Paris, my fantasy is to travel to Paris. I would like to make Paris happen. But sexual fantasies often exist as a realm of experience that transcends the restrictions, the boundaries, your sense of self, your self-image.

• 11:54Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 11:54Esther Perel?

  Your moral and ideological convictions.

• 11:57Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 11:58Esther Perel?

  It's the transgressive nature of it.

• 12:00Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 12:01Esther Perel?

  That is so powerful and not your desire to want to experience it in reality.

• 12:07Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 12:07Esther Perel?

  Many of our fantasies, we would never want to experience in reality.

• 12:11Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 12:12Esther Perel?

  And that's the opposite of most other fantasies that we have, most other things that we imagine.

• 12:18Speaker 04

  Hmm.

• 12:18Esther Perel?

  So how is it that in our mind, alone or with someone, we can create absolute delight and flight of fancy about things that would make us cringe in real life?

• 12:33Speaker 04

  So I guess what I'm understanding is that the growth or the healing around fantasy is not necessarily about finding a way to enact what is in one's mind. It's more about finding a way to learn from, as you were saying before, what your real needs, desires, and what the solution is to those feelings, whether it's about insecurity or whether it's about needing, at the end of the day, to be held or whether it's about, you know, that that.

• 13:14Speaker 04

  One investigates the fantasy for deeper truths about oneself.

• 13:19Esther Perel?

  Yes.

• 13:20Speaker 04

  As a healing path to that, as opposed to the healing path being a reenactment of it in some way.

• 13:28Esther Perel?

  And it's not always healing. Sometimes it's just fun.

• 13:31Speaker 04

  Right.

• 13:31Esther Perel?

  It's excitement. I mean, the primary purpose of a fantasy is to intensify excitement and arousal and pleasure.

• 13:38Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah.

• 13:39Esther Perel?

  Let's be very, very clear. That is the, its main function.

• 13:43Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 13:43Esther Perel?

  It's what more can I add, you know, um, and sometimes it's enacted. Sometimes it doesn't need to be enacted because it's enacted in my mind. But the interesting piece about erotic fantasies is that they often include many

• 14:02Esther Perel?

  feelings and experiences that do not get processed so easily in other parts of our lives.

• 14:10Speaker 04

  Hmm.

• 14:11Esther Perel?

  You talk about a diaper, infantile needs and wishes are very big in our fantasy world.

• 14:18Speaker 04

  Hmm.

• 14:19Esther Perel?

  Jealousy, possessiveness, revenge, power exchange, total surrender, passivity. I mean, there are many feelings that we would not want to experience those in. I don't want to feel jealous in real life.

• 14:36Speaker 04

  Hmm.

• 14:37Esther Perel?

  But in my fantasy, if that jealousy becomes an elixir.

• 14:41Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 14:42Esther Perel?

  It's fun.

• 14:43Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 14:43Esther Perel?

  It's playful, it's pretend, it's a great theater. I mean, as an actress, it's, it's really, you know, the world of fantasy is a theater.

• 14:53Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 14:54Esther Perel?

  You, you, you perform the play or you read the play or you imagine the play. But it is a theater and it's extremely important for people to understand the pretend nature of it because that's what helps with the discomfort, the shame, the guilt, the embarrassment.

• 15:08Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 15:08Esther Perel?

  And if people have to understand that fantasy is play. But because it reveals them to themselves.

• 15:16Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 15:16Esther Perel?

  They often think, oh, what does that say about me? That I am imagining something like that. Why are the infantile wishes so prevalent? Because for many people, it's a time when they felt very secure. When it is about the wrapped, warm, peeing in the diaper felt was very warm. It was, you know, being held, being cleaned. There's a lot of, for many people, positive associations with being rocked.

• 15:45Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 15:46Esther Perel?

  Being held, being sued. And so what we have a capacity to do is to eroticize.

• 15:53Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 15:53Esther Perel?

  Those needs, wishes, aspirations, experiences, and turn them into erotic material, basically. Sexual, sexually enhancing material.

• 16:05Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 16:07Esther Perel?

  I don't think anybody has ever fully understood how this works and why we do this. And do other mammals have them?

• 16:15Speaker 04

  Hmm.

• 16:17Esther Perel?

  Everybody has a sexuality, but not everybody has an erotic life. And the central agent of eroticism is our imagination.

• 16:26Speaker 04

  Yeah, yes.

• 16:27Esther Perel?

  It's this and not that.

• 16:29Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 16:30Esther Perel?

  But for many women, I just say sometimes it's the time of day. It's the weather, it's the temperature. It's, it's things that have nothing to do with plot and accoutrements and toys. It's just anything that enhances the experience. You don't have to think about it as an elaborate.

• 16:49Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 16:50Esther Perel?

  Script.

• 16:51Speaker 04

  Sure. One of the, um, the questions that came up early with journalists in promoting the book was about the fact that we included, uh, you know, a chapter called captive. And that we discussed. Yeah. I mean, I know for myself, a number of women who have very violent fantasies. And it was important to me that. The book included those because they're true and and women have them. And I wanted to ask you about that, just in terms of, I mean, as you said a minute ago, that, you know, a woman would never necessarily want that to actually happen.

• 17:35Esther Perel?

  I've never seen a woman who wants a split lip.

• 17:37Speaker 04

  Who actually wants it to to to happen, yeah.

• 17:40Esther Perel?

  No.

• 17:40Speaker 04

  But the fantasy of a level of violence.

• 17:46Esther Perel?

  Mm hmm.

• 17:47Speaker 04

  Now, sure, some may be rooted in trauma, but if it's not, then what, yeah.

• 17:53Esther Perel?

  It may be.

• 17:54Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 17:55Esther Perel?

  It may be. And when it is, it's, I think it's always important to ask the question, is it repetition or repair? Because sometimes it's repair. I reclaim it.

• 18:06Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 18:06Esther Perel?

  I have turned this story into my own story because of fantasy, you are the author.

• 18:12Speaker 04

  Yeah, exactly.

• 18:12Esther Perel?

  You are the character, you are the playwright, you know, you're the performer, you have every role in it, you're the director. And nobody makes you do anything you don't want to do, even if the plot is that somebody is making you do something, but that's the plot you're writing.

• 18:29Speaker 04

  Exactly.

• 18:30Esther Perel?

  So I think that forced seduction has, you know, people have been delving into it and trying to understand it, and I prefer to call it that, and rape fantasies and all of that. But to me, there's something very ingenious about the forced seduction fantasy, and it's this. For most of history, women could never claim their sexual wants.

• 18:54Esther Perel?

  And so what did they do in their imagination, sometimes? They created someone who made them do everything they wanted, but that they couldn't ask for. Because de facto, if I write the story,

• 19:10Speaker 04

  Right, yes.

• 19:11Esther Perel?

  it's everything I want.

• 19:12Speaker 04

  Yes, yes.

• 19:13Esther Perel?

  But you're making me do it, so I never have to say that's what I wanted. I just did it because they wanted me to, they made me.

• 19:20Speaker 04

  That's interesting.

• 19:20Esther Perel?

  And it was such an ingenious way to be able to experience pleasure and excitement without having to claim it and own it and bear the responsibility of it.

• 19:33Speaker 04

  Surely today, that's not the same, you would hope.

• 19:36Esther Perel?

  But I think that the power of the fantasy is actually, you know, often there is a sense today that people, the more power they have in life, the more sometimes they fantasize about being able to surrender that power, to not have to be responsible, to not have to take care of everything, make decisions. Look, when the first seduction, you don't make a decision. There is another person who makes you do things. And he makes you do exactly everything that you have decided you wanted them to make you do. And you never hurt. Let's be very, very clear. Nobody hurts in a fantasy. Even if the fantasy is violent, you experience pleasure.

• 20:20Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 20:21Esther Perel?

  Some people, when it is repetition, when it is a sense that they can only come or they can only climax, or they can only get aroused if it re-evokes the sense of fear or the sense of dread or the sense of danger. Then we sometimes think, is this really just plain fun? Or is there something here of a trauma reenactment that is being played out that should be examined? Can this person experience the same kind of pleasure in a different script? Or is there a rigidity attached to it? And now it has become fixed and it's fetishized and this is the way I come and this is the way I like it.

• 21:02Speaker 04

  Interesting.

• 21:07Esther Perel?

  We have to take a brief break. Stay with us.

• 21:19Esther Perel?

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• 22:24Esther Perel?

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• 23:09Esther Perel?

  go to Shopify.com/Esther to start your free trial. That's Shopify.com/Esther. Go to Shopify.com/Esther today to hear your first...

• 23:24Esther Perel?

  Support for Where Should We Begin comes from Shopify. Starting a business requires you to be resourceful, and the more you flex that muscle, the more you start to recognize growth opportunities, like using Shopify to launch your business. And that's especially true if you launch with Black Friday approaching, so you can take advantage of the extra online traffic. Shopify is the platform for a record-breaking, reliable, holiday-selling season for businesses at every stage.

• 23:53Esther Perel?

  Their pre-built website themes and AI site builder make it easy to launch a beautiful, professional-looking website. And you don't even need to touch a line of code to do it. They also have a mobile app that lets you run your online store from anywhere. If you're ready to launch your business before Black Friday, go to Shopify.com/Esther to start your free trial. That's Shopify.com/Esther. Go to Shopify.com/Esther today to hear your first.

• 24:26Speaker 04

  A couple of years ago, someone brought a study to my attention that was referring to a predominance of post-menopausal women turning to BDSM.

• 24:40Esther Perel?

  In what capacity?

• 24:41Speaker 04

  To the degree that suddenly, as a post-menopausal woman, for the first time in their lives, they were enjoying it or going after bondage scenarios in a way that maybe... I was curious whether you'd ever come across that. My question was, if that were true, that a lot of women, or a greater proportion of women who are through or going through menopause are interested in BDSM than younger women, what is that related to? I had some thoughts just in terms of going through a stage in life where you're feeling so completely out of control of what's happening in your body and to your body,

• 25:24Speaker 04

  that something about the power scenario within BDSM was satisfying or feeling like there was a taking ownership of not just one's output, but also what's happening to that you are in control or that you declare control in that relationship. I was wondering whether you had come across that at all.

• 25:49Esther Perel?

  No, I have not, not as in post-menopause, but also I would probably have a different reading. I mean BDSM is not just... And these are heterosexual women? Bisexual women, pansexual women?

• 26:06Speaker 04

  I don't know what the study was. I was assuming that it was across the board.

• 26:12Esther Perel?

  I think that I had a number of thoughts when you were asking the question. I mean, one is, for many women, sexuality in a long-term relationship, I would say now more in heterosexual context, but I'm not sure it's exclusive to that. It's not usually the most interesting for a lot of women. It's often penis in a vagina, it's often a five-minute drive-by. It's not necessarily the kind of attention that they would like to have. Bondage makes somebody pay an enormous amount of attention to you. And you have to do nothing. And you don't have to take care of anybody. And you don't have to be responsible, and you don't have to make decisions.

• 26:56Esther Perel?

  And this is a dream for many women.

• 26:59Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 26:59Esther Perel?

  Working women, caring women for others, young ones, old ones, partners, you name it. And I think a lot of the fantasies of women are often about either being able to want everything exactly as they want, or not to have to make any decision about what they want.

• 27:18Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 27:18Esther Perel?

  Because the fantasy comes to replace the social role.

• 27:25Esther Perel?

  I have a thing that I often describe, that I see primarily in straight couples. I see many male partners who tell me, "Nothing turns me on more than to see her turned on."

• 27:39Esther Perel?

  And you say, loving, caring, nice, cares about the pleasure of their partner, etc. I have yet to hear a straight woman tell me that in my office about her male partner.

• 27:50Speaker 04

  Interesting.

• 27:51Esther Perel?

  "Nothing turns me on more than to see him turned on." It's irrelevant. It's irrelevant what he's experiencing if she's not feeling anything. If she's not feeling anything, he can be standing there with a major erection right next to her. It won't turn her on, it will not do anything to her.

• 28:10Speaker 04

  Interesting.

• 28:10Esther Perel?

  What turns her on is what's happening to her.

• 28:13Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 28:15Esther Perel?

  And in order for that to happen, she needs to be able to completely focus on herself. And many of the fantasies are set up so that she can focus entirely on herself. And not worrying about the well-being of others, on caring for them, on feeling responsible for them, all of that.

• 28:37Esther Perel?

  That kind of narcissistic investment in the very positive sense of the word is essential to connect her with her erotic self. I am free, which is what a fantasy is a script for. I'm sovereign means I am not responsible, worried, caring for anyone else's well-being at this moment. I'm thinking about me for a change. Bondage offers that. Submission offers that.

• 29:07Speaker 04

  Fantasy in general.

• 29:08Esther Perel?

  Fantasy in general. But you were asking me about BDSM. I think if you're not able to experience so fluidly spontaneous arousal, desire, and you are more in an entrance to your sexuality that has to do with willingness. I'm willing, I'm open. It's not like I'm turned on, I'm not excited, I'm not aroused. I don't yet have any desire, but I'm open to see what will happen. Fantasy becomes ever more important in post-menopause. Because if it's not coming from the body, it will come from the mind.

• 29:45Speaker 04

  Interesting.

• 29:46Esther Perel?

  From our imagination. So that's where I think that a good story, a good plot can do wonders.

• 29:55Speaker 04

  Interesting. I have a couple more questions.

• 29:58Esther Perel?

  Yeah, me too. I have one for you now. Because I think one of the things that you do and that I do, and where should we begin? So I do sessions that are anonymous. Your stories were collected anonymously. You inserted one of you anonymously in the book want. And the assumption is there is a freedom that we feel when we can reveal ourselves through our fantasies in an anonymous way. What did you learn about this anonymity?

• 30:34Speaker 04

  Anonymity, I have to imagine that, you know, I did a book reading last night and a woman came up while I was signing and said that she wrote a particular one in the book. And I was so, it was the first person that I had met, a real human being who had written. I was so, you know, obviously grateful to her and amazed that she felt free and courageous enough for me to, you know, take a picture of her with the book and the fantasy. And I have imagined that many, many women did it purely because it was anonymous. And had it not been, and had we asked for more detail, that they would have been much shyer

• 31:18Speaker 04

  or maybe would not have sent them in at all. And that's even Western, I'm not even thinking about women in countries where fantasy is illegal. You know, various forms of imagination even would be considered punishable. And certainly for the one that I put in myself, I was grateful for the anonymity of the book.

• 31:39Esther Perel?

  Has anyone identified you?

• 31:41Speaker 04

  I mean, if they did, I would not, I mean, I think it's important that mine remains anonymous.

• 31:47Esther Perel?

  I think it's a beautiful idea that you did it, that you threw yourself in the lot, so to speak. Said, I'm one of yours.

• 31:54Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 31:55Esther Perel?

  I'm not just a collector of your stories, I'm part of the stories. And you swim with the fish.

• 32:01Speaker 04

  Yeah, it was hard, I was really surprised at how challenging I found it. Not even the fact that I was going to be handing it to somebody else or that it, you know, but the writing down particular words, all of a sudden, felt, I keep thinking, dirty, which, on the one hand, I feel like I'm not particularly square. I feel like I can hear anything and say anything, but there was something about the act of writing it down that felt much more pornographic than the visuals or the, you know, than my imagination, which was interesting, I found that interesting.

• 32:40Esther Perel?

  Did the fact that you wrote your own change how you read the ones from the others?

• 32:46Speaker 04

  It made me be much more impressed by the courage that it took for women to write in. Yeah.

• 32:57Esther Perel?

  And did you write it in the beginning?

• 33:00Speaker 04

  No, I wrote it at the end. I kept putting it off. And then a couple of times I tried to write it while I was on airplanes and I found that I was too paranoid about people, you know, that I couldn't do that. And then eventually I just sat myself down and did it.

• 33:22Esther Perel?

  We are in the midst of our session and there is still so much to talk about. We need to take a brief break, so stay with us.

• 33:38Esther Perel?

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• 34:22Esther Perel?

  and they make the room feel really inviting and cozy. Article is offering our listeners $50 off your first purchase of $100 or more. To claim, visit article.com/begin and the discount will be automatically applied at checkout. That's article.com/begin for $50 off your first purchase of $100 or more.

• 34:49Esther Perel?

  Support for Where Should We Begin comes from Quince. The best clothes are containers for memories. When you put on a beloved shirt or sweater, it can bring back all the other times you wore it, who you were with, what you were doing. Quince makes pieces that will hold memories for years to come. The designs are timeless and they use high-quality materials like Mongolian cashmere, organic cotton, and premium stretch denim. And it's not just apparel. Quince offers hotel-quality bedding and bath to kitchen essentials and thoughtfully designed furniture. Now that it's officially fall, I'm always reaching for my Quince cashmere sweaters. They're soft, they're comfortable, and I find myself wearing them all the time.

• 35:32Esther Perel?

  Find the fall pieces you reach for most at Quince. Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers or go to quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK too. And when Quince asks where you heard about them, let them know it was Where Should We Begin? It's the best way to support the show.

• 36:00Speaker 05

  Are you tired of hearing about business, tech, and finance from the bros? We are the Tiger Sisters, a top business podcast with the Vox Media Podcast Network. Tiger Sisters releases every Monday, and we decode money, power, and love. And who doesn't love all those things? We are the internet's Wall Street and Silicon Valley big sisters. Tune in every Monday for late-night sister talk meets boardroom strategy.

• 36:23Speaker 01

  Check out Tiger Sisters on YouTube, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 36:28Speaker 05

  Welcome to the Tiger fam.

• 36:35Esther Perel?

  We fuss over every single detail of the show. We sort through thousands of applicants each year to pick the stories that we share with you. And the conversations that I have with couples start off as three-hour sessions. And then we thoughtfully edit them to one hour and then go back and listen to then add the notes and sometimes even a critique of the session. It's kind of what is in my head as I listen to the session that I didn't say in the session. We create original music and sound design to bring the sessions to life.

• 37:18Esther Perel?

  Where Should We Begin involves a whole team who have been there since the beginning with me to bring my office to you. It's about eight years that we are telling the stories of raw intimate encounter between people that you are invited to listen in, like a fly on the wall. It's an expensive and quite time-consuming effort to create Where Should We Begin? And which we gladly undertake because you tell us time and again how valuable these conversations are to you, how they accompany you in critical moments of your life, how you see yourselves even in stories that have nothing to do with yours, and how it has helped you.

• 38:03Esther Perel?

  And that is probably the most affirming thing people can come and tell me. So now, we need to ask you for more and for your help. And you can do your part not only by listening, but by joining my Office Hours subscription on Apple Podcasts. A subscription to Where Should We Begin gives you an ad-free version of these sessions and all the Esther callings. And more importantly, a way to continue the conversations with me on all the topics that come up in these sessions, from sexlessness, to work conflicts, to infidelity, to secrets, to betrayals, all sorts of relational betrayals, to ending relationships.

• 38:48Esther Perel?

  And we offer follow-ups with the couples because people always ask me, you know, do you see them again? Do you hear from them? Do you know where this session landed? So I go back to the couples and I ask them for a follow-up, which they share with us and which I then share with you. And just like our relationships, what you say isn't as important as what you do. So I've heard you say how much you enjoy the programme, how much it adds to your understanding of your own relationships. But now, it's time for me to do an offer and an ask, which means click on the subscribe button to the Where Should We Begin show page. I'd love to see you in Esther's Office Hours.

• 39:36Esther Perel?

  Is it only or primarily for women? Or when people who identify as women?

• 39:42Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 39:43Esther Perel?

  Or can?

• 39:44Speaker 04

  It's for everyone. Oh, absolutely.

• 39:46Esther Perel?

  Like, can I learn about myself by understanding and by reading you? That should be able to be translated to any gender and any?

• 39:55Speaker 04

  Exactly. And I mean, it was important to me that we asked only women for this particular book to send in fantasies. I have heard from many men how much they're learning from reading it. Obviously, and what's bizarre is this never occurred to me because I was really only initially doing this for women, but men, you know, buying it to be turned on. And but it's it is for everybody. And men, a couple of men have said that they're buying it for their daughters, for their teenage daughters.

• 40:34Speaker 04

  One said to counterbalance the toxic masculinity that's out there to have other ideas out there about what is what is possible and what is okay and what other women think about. I mean, actually, speaking of males, you have two sons, is that right?

• 40:52Esther Perel?

  Yep, yep.

• 40:53Speaker 04

  I'm curious, I also have two sons. How you, when they were of, you know, of the ages that you would have, might have had these conversations, how you taught them about, as you say, relational intelligence? How you talked about sex with them or about what women, if they were wanting to be with women, what women might? Want of them or what you expected them to be aware of in their relations with women?

• 41:35Esther Perel?

  I wrote Mating in Captivity when my oldest was eleven and my youngest was eight. We had talked about sexuality basically since they were four. At four, I had the first book that explained where babies come from. Because at four is when children become theologians and they ask, where do I come from and where does grandma go when she dies? And so the French general books were started then and it was about the chickens and the elephant and the kitten and the people. And how each one of them gets their little ones.

• 42:14Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 42:14Esther Perel?

  And so that's how we talked about it. We talked about, you know, how it's when you like someone, you like to hold their hand. You like them to touch you and when you don't like them, you sometimes feel like, you know, your neck goes up and your shoulders tighten. So it was woven into the conversation. There was no sexuality that didn't also include relationships. It's one whole. Um, and then they would sometimes like someone in the kindergarten and then in elementary school and then you talk, do you have a little girlfriend and you normalize this. This is, this is not necessarily um the most common way in the United States, I have to admit.

• 42:55Esther Perel?

  But then one day I was writing and in the front of the house were all the books that I needed to read and there were many, many books about sexuality and my older one came home one day and he said, could you please cover all these books because I have friends coming over? And I said, if I was writing a book of weapons of mass destruction, he would not ask me to cover anything. So we're not covering. This is normal. We're not making this an ooh, ah, ee subject. And, and, and we're not cringing around it. This is just part of life and if your friends have questions, then we'll talk about it. And at first it was a little, and then at one point, one day I came home and I heard him sitting with a bunch

• 43:40Esther Perel?

  and they were talking and then one of them finally said, how do you know this? And my older one says, because my mother is writing a book about it.

• 43:49Esther Perel?

  So I said, okay, we're good. Now we can go forward. And then at first, there was a little discomfort. What is this mother who writes a book? But then when the teacher came to school, holding the book in hand, then they said, my teacher is reading your book. So it became respectable and everything. Yeah. Took a while, took a while. On their own, one day, one of them called and wanted to ask if they could come and bring someone. And I said, you can bring her, but I wanna know her name and I want her here for breakfast.

• 44:21Esther Perel?

  She's not coming here furtively, lying to her parents, not telling them where she is, and then leaving this house afterwards and going home. This is not how we're gonna do it. She has a name, she's dignified, and she's invited for breakfast. And then after she left the next day, which we did, and then I came into the room and I said, shall we chat? No, I know, I this, I that. And I said, you don't know much. Most people in my office know very little. And the older they are, that doesn't always mean they know plenty. If there is a subject people don't know much about, it's sexuality. If there is a subject people lie about, it's sexuality.

• 45:01Esther Perel?

  It's the topic that men lie about by exaggerating, it's sex, and women by diminishing. So, shall we chat? And then the basic first, first thing was, it's not a performance and an outcome-based thing. It's an experience. Sex isn't just something you do. Sex is a place you go. So where do you wanna go? Do you want to experience a deep connection, a spiritual union, a transcendence, fun, naughtiness, mischief? What calls you there, you know? And, more importantly than anything else, slow down. Slow down.

• 45:45Esther Perel?

  You will always go too fast. For now.

• 45:48Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 45:49Esther Perel?

  You know.

• 45:49Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 45:49Esther Perel?

  And that was kind of the first conversation we had.

• 45:53Speaker 04

  Can you teach boys respect for women?

• 45:57Esther Perel?

  Absolutely. But you also.

• 45:59Speaker 04

  And so what would the language be? How would you, um, you know, particularly in this day, this time of Andrew Tates, et cetera? How do you begin that conversation with them knowing that there is the other dialogue going around about it? So that they listen and, and don't.

• 46:19Esther Perel?

  Does it matter to you what she experiences?

• 46:23Speaker 04

  Hmm.

• 46:24Esther Perel?

  She, they, he.

• 46:26Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah.

• 46:27Esther Perel?

  Does it matter what your partner experiences? Would it make a difference for you if your partner said this was a wonderful moment?

• 46:36Speaker 04

  Hmm.

• 46:37Esther Perel?

  And that you would know that you were the source of that in part?

• 46:44Esther Perel?

  I think that that will give you a whole different experience of sexuality, partnered sexuality.

• 46:53Esther Perel?

  And then if you tell me yes, I wouldn't mind, I'd like that. Who, who would say no to that kind of thing? Then I would say, here are ways that, um, you can demonstrate that and that you can invite that. Would that intrigue you? Never give away what you know before you have the buy-in.

• 47:16Esther Perel?

  Make them really wanna know.

• 47:20Esther Perel?

  Because I didn't just talk to my sons, I talked to the whole group of friends around. You know, it was like the mother you can talk to.

• 47:26Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 47:27Esther Perel?

  Um, but it's not like you sit down for one conversation and you teach. It has to be an easy, integrated flow of conversation. It's not, I sit you down and let me tell you what you need to do. It's, there is a way of thinking about sexuality that's very different from most of what you're gonna see. You know this thing porn that you may enjoy? Lots of people get turned on to it. But just so you know, for a lot of people, that is the last thing that they really want. And before you begin to bring all what you watched on screen, take your time to discover it with the other person. Get to know them. Get to know how they like to be touched.

• 48:10Esther Perel?

  Get to know by them holding your hand, how they like to touch. How they give touch and how they take touch. How they please you and how they please themselves. Get to know them, be curious. Don't think you need to know. My, I remember one of them, I said, you're not expected to know. You know, you didn't learn baseball in one day. You didn't learn baseball in one year either. So, you know, if this idea that you have in your mind that you should just know, no, you know squat.

• 48:46Esther Perel?

  And then, at the end, it was like, do other kids talk like that? I said, I don't know, but it would be, I would feel really bad that the world wants to talk to me and not my own sons. I mean, or, or their, their friends that I've known since they're born. So, that's the way you teach. You weave it in, you normalize it, you make it comfortable. You don't accuse them of anything. They're boys, they're not supposed to know.

• 49:14Speaker 04

  Yet. Yet.

• 49:17Speaker 04

  How would you apply relational intelligence to the concept of fantasy? Let's say, in my relationship, I've been married for twenty years. My partner, my husband, let's say, has never quite been able to satisfy me in the way that very often I take myself off alone afterwards and satisfy myself for another time and, and that's how I get pleasured. But because of reading this book, I want to address the subject.

• 49:50Esther Perel?

  No, don't, not like that.

• 49:52Speaker 04

  Well, that's, I guess that's my question.

• 49:54Esther Perel?

  You don't start from your book. If you start from the place which you just described.

• 49:59Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 49:59Esther Perel?

  I live with someone who basically, I've never really come with them. I enjoy it somewhat, or not at all, or I wait for it to be over, or I actually enjoy it, but I've never come. Et cetera, et cetera. You don't start with a fantasy. Because you don't even know if the other person, I read one like that this morning. I'm with my partner for umpteen, twenty something years. Um, we have zero romantic relationship. Um, when I wanna tell him, um, he instantly feels criticized. I probably do, because by now I'm so frustrated, so fed up. I think the first thing, eh eh, when, when you, I, I, I just did a desire bundle.

• 50:43Esther Perel?

  These two digital courses on sexuality. And one is really starting from the place of we're stuck. Nothing's happening. That demands one kind of conversation. The other one starts from, we have a flicker, we would like a flame.

• 50:57Speaker 04

  Right.

• 50:58Esther Perel?

  That, that one could start with your book. The first one, you first write and you just say, I've been thinking, you, and I think it's writing. You write a letter by hand and you put it wherever they will find it. I've been thinking, I've been thinking about us. And I've been wanting to bring this up for many years and I actually don't always, don't know how. I don't find my words, I'm afraid you're gonna be upset, that you, that we're gonna end up in an argument. That's the least thing I would want. What I really hope is to create a deeper connection between us, because I know that we really care deeply for each other. But I know that we've never really been able to have an adult conversation about sexuality.

• 51:42Speaker 04

  Hmm.

• 51:43Esther Perel?

  We will talk about renovations of our houses, umpteen times, but we will never talk about it in renovations we could have in our own relationships. Home improvement.

• 51:54Esther Perel?

  You know, of our own sorts.

• 51:55Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 51:56Esther Perel?

  And before I even say anything, I was wondering, does that even interest you? Would you be open to that? Can I invite you into this conversation? And maybe just answer me in writing. You may not be ready to have a face-to-face conversation. So we'll do it side by side.

• 52:12Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 52:13Esther Perel?

  That would be the opening. You do not come and say, you know what I would really like that would get me off? Is this? No, no, no.

• 52:20Speaker 04

  Yeah, I I think I meant just as a result of having read it. One decides that they want to have the conversation with the partner and how did they go about doing that? So that's that's fantastic.

• 52:30Esther Perel?

  I think it most people start from a very different place. They've never, you know, how is it? It works. What does it mean? We both come.

• 52:41Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 52:42Esther Perel?

  And how is it? It works.

• 52:43Speaker 04

  Right.

• 52:44Esther Perel?

  So I'm trying to think, I, before we enter the fantasy world. Um, that doesn't mean they can't go there. But sometimes it starts with, if you could have a mini-session where each of you could just show exactly how they would want the other person to touch them. And all you do is you guide them. And you can even do it with your clothes, as in a good sense, it focuses. But it is about having someone who is completely attentive and attuned to you.

• 53:18Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 53:19Esther Perel?

  That in itself is a fantasy too.

• 53:21Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 53:22Esther Perel?

  And then you sustain it. Yours are advanced.

• 53:26Speaker 04

  Hmm, there's a lot of fantasies in there where it's, you know, the bottom line is a woman wanting to be loved for exactly who she is.

• 53:37Esther Perel?

  Yes. And seen.

• 53:38Speaker 04

  And seen and heard and adored and worshipped even. Yeah, cherished, cherished.

• 53:43Esther Perel?

  Cherished.

• 53:43Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 53:44Esther Perel?

  And I see a lot of cherished spouses and famished lovers.

• 53:51Speaker 04

  Interesting.

• 53:52Esther Perel?

  So it has to start, it starts much more basic, you know. But we have to stop. So I was thinking, what's this like for you? Because they usually interview you, you, you and.

• 54:05Speaker 04

  It's really fascinating. I've, I've had some fantastic conversations um with women. One thing that I wanna make sure that we'd speak about before we finish is the area that I think I'm, I'm most interested in what's coming from this, which is about a new sense of empowerment in starting this conversation. In this community that's developing because of the book. It's encouraging women to find their voice.

• 54:37Esther Perel?

  Right, right. But what you just highlighted when you talked about cherished and adored and being loved for exactly who she is, is that that's not always how she experiences herself.

• 54:49Speaker 04

  Correct.

• 54:50Esther Perel?

  She experiences herself with a much more of a critical voice,

• 54:54Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 54:54Esther Perel?

  a comparative voice, a competitive voice, a voice of abnegation, you know. And so the fantasy of being received and loved as she is

• 55:05Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 55:06Esther Perel?

  stands in contrast.

• 55:09Speaker 04

  Exactly.

• 55:09Esther Perel?

  So that's the fantasy that repairs and compensates.

• 55:12Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 55:13Esther Perel?

  The power, I think it's empowerment and self-acceptance

• 55:19Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 55:19Esther Perel?

  are interconnected.

• 55:21Speaker 04

  Absolutely agree.

• 55:23Esther Perel?

  And so when she finds her voice, um, if I ask her, this is a very different level of question, just like, I turn myself on when or by, which is different than what turns me on is.

• 55:42Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 55:43Esther Perel?

  Or you turn me on when.

• 55:45Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 55:46Esther Perel?

  And sometimes it starts with, I turn myself on when I walk in nature, when I listen to music, when I dance in the bathroom, when I, when I pamper myself, when I go out with my girlfriends, when I read a good book. It's basically, I give myself the permission to attend to myself.

• 56:07Esther Perel?

  It's the, the personal version of the same in the fantasy.

• 56:12Speaker 04

  Is that the first step before being able to ask that of somebody else?

• 56:20Esther Perel?

  I don't know. I imagine for some it may be me first, you next. And for others, it may be you first, me next. I don't know that there is a one size fits all. But what I do know is that when you ask women, what turns, how do I turn myself on or off? The answers are not sexual in nature. They have to do with empowerment. They have to do with what you're highlighting, with self-acceptance, with body image, with sensuality, with pleasure, with nurturing oneself, with attending to oneself. And that in itself is the first level of I'm adoring myself.

• 57:03Speaker 04

  Particularly with the shame and so much shame.

• 57:07Esther Perel?

  Yeah, we can't have this conversation without using this word at least once. You know, because you paid a lot of attention to that.

• 57:15Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 57:17Esther Perel?

  And I think that that cherishing myself, attending to myself is on the other side of the shame.

• 57:26Speaker 04

  Absolutely.

• 57:37Speaker 06

  Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise. We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut. Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Destri Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Kristin Muller, and Julianne Hahn. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider. And the executive producers of Where Should We Begin? Are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, and Jack Saul.