The Science Of Speaking Up For Yourself | Elaine Lin Hering

How to find your voice when you need to be heard, learn when it's smart to choose silence, and communicate better with the people who matter most. Elaine Lin Hering https://elainelinhering.com/ is a former Lecturer of Law at Harvard Law School. She works with organizations and individuals to build skills in communication, collaboration, and conflict management. She is the author of the book Unlearning Silence: How to Speak Your Mind, Unleash Talent, and Live More Fully https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/720975/unlearning-silence-by-elaine-lin-hering/. In this episode we talk about: How we learn silence and self-editing How we often miscalculate the cost-benefit when it comes to speaking up or staying silent Elaine's four steps to learn how to speak up and find your voice How we can unintentionally silence others, especially those closest to us, and what to do about it This episode originally aired on May 15th, 2024. Get the 10% with Dan Harris app here https://app.danharris.com/membership Sign up for Dan's free newsletter here http://www.danharris.com/ Follow Dan on social: Instagram https://bit.ly/3tGigG5, TikTok https://bit.ly/3FOA84J Subscribe to our YouTube Channel https://bit.ly/3FybRzD Thanks to our sponsors: AT&T: Happy Holidays from AT&T http://www.att.com/. Connecting changes everything. Monarch: Use code HAPPIER at monarch.com https://monarch.com in your browser for half off your first year. Fabletics: Go to fabletics.com/Happier http://fabletics.com/Happier, sign up as a VIP and get 80% off everything. Airbnb: Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much at airbnb.com/host http://airbnb.com/host. To advertise on the show, contact [email protected] or visit https://advertising.libsyn.com/10HappierwithDanHarris

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:31Dan Harris?

  This is the 10% Happier Podcast. I'm Dan Harris.

• 0:46Dan Harris?

  Hey, hey, how we doing? This will likely come as no surprise to anybody who's ever listened to this show, but one thing I really do not struggle with is using my voice. In fact, I've been told on more than one occasion that I use my voice way too much, that I should sometimes just shut the fuck up. However, I am well aware that this is not the case for many, many people, including for my wife, Dr. Bianca Harris, who's going to join me today as a co-host for this interview. Our guest is Elaine Lin Hering, who's a former lecturer at Harvard Law School and who now works with both companies and individuals to build communication skills to help people handle both conflict and collaboration, which, brief aside, I have to say, is an incredibly important thing to teach.

• 1:29Dan Harris?

  These basic communication skills are vastly undervalued, in my opinion. Anyway, Elaine has written a book. It's called Unlearning Silence, and it's about how and when to speak up, as well as how to stop silencing other people, which has been a problem for me. Honestly, I'm not proud to admit that, but that is true. In this conversation, we talk about how and why many of us learn to self-silence and self-edit, often at a very early age, what the health consequences can be from self-silencing, how we often miscalculate the costs and benefits of speaking up. In other words, it will often go better than you fear it might. We talk about Elaine's four steps for how you can learn to use your voice, times when it actually makes sense to stay silent, and how we can unintentionally silence other people, even people we love.

• 2:14Dan Harris?

  In fact, Bianca and I talk about our own experiences with this very dynamic in our own marriage. Before we dive in, I want to do a quick plug here for the new 10% app. So cool to be able to say those words. The app has just gone live. We will be doing a free New Year's meditation challenge in early January. Seven days with Joseph Goldstein, the great meditation teacher. He has cooked up something incredibly cool for you. It's a kind of masterclass and extraordinary and accessible on-ramp to Buddhist meditation. This seven-day course that he's crafted is good for beginners. It's also good for experienced meditators. I was in the room meditating right alongside him as he recorded these sessions.

• 2:57Dan Harris?

  And I've been hanging out with him for years and I still got a ton out of these meditations. In fact, I'm going to be doing them again right alongside you from January 5th through the 11th. If you want to do this free challenge, you can sign up at danharris.com. Not only is the challenge free, there's also a 30-day free trial for the app. If you want to try before you buy. One last note, I promise this is the last thing I'm going to say before we toss a break and get to the conversation. But one last note, we will not be holding our weekly live meditation on Tuesday, December 30th, since I and many of you will be on vacation. I will, however, be live and with you three times during the New Year's challenge. The regular Tuesday live meditation and Q and A session at four o'clock on Tuesday, the 6th of January.

• 3:41Dan Harris?

  But we'll do those again at four Eastern on the 8th and the 11th. Okay, enough out of me. We'll get started with Elaine Lin Hering right after this.

• 3:50Speaker 02

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• 4:38Speaker 04

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• 4:51Dan Harris?

  Elaine Lynn Herring, welcome to the show.

• 4:53Speaker 05

  Thanks so much for having me.

• 4:54Dan Harris?

  Dr. Bianca Harris, welcome back to the show as well.

• 4:57Speaker 06

  Thank you.

• 4:59Dan Harris?

  Pro tip, Elaine, if you want this to go well, if there's any sort of dispute, I am right. Okay. We cool with that?

• 5:08Speaker 05

  What does Bianca think?

• 5:11Speaker 06

  I mean, I know the truth. So if he really needs that to be what the world thinks.

• 5:17Speaker 05

  And the truth will set you free.

• 5:20Dan Harris?

  Exactly. No, truly a pleasure to have you here. And Bianca, thanks for coming on. This is, this is something we have thought and talked a lot about on our side in our relationship and also in just, just in how the world works. So let me just start with you. I'd be curious to hear your origin story on this. Why, why silence?

• 5:40Speaker 05

  I am the youngest daughter of an immigrant family from Taiwan to the United States. I grew up in the Christian church. And so all of those things teach me to turn the other cheek, to swallow my own needs, to cater to other people, to respect and even love other people means to listen to them without pushing back. Because as someone said at the beginning of this episode, they're always right. And so I learned a lot of silence. And then having gone to Harvard Law School, taught at Harvard Law School, doing leadership development work around negotiation, difficult conversations, feedback, noticed a pattern

• 6:21Speaker 05

  that even though people spend a tremendous amount of time and energy around learning those skills or teaching those skills, some people still don't negotiate or have the difficult conversations or give or receive the feedback. Why is that? And what I landed upon was silence, the silence we've learned, the silence we've benefited from, and the silence that we often continue to perpetuate without realizing what we're doing.

• 6:47Dan Harris?

  So you learned silence, but I guess I can take from your last statement that you, you've also learned to silence other people?

• 6:58Speaker 05

  I think we all do. Silencing other people is part of the human condition. As we're moving through the world, we inevitably butt up against each other. Sometimes it is a matter of self-preservation, right? I need a boundary with you. I don't need that perspective in my life right now. So I'm going to cut you out or maybe just not reply to your text message. But it is also unintended silence, right? I think I'm being welcoming, supportive of you. You're not receiving it in that way. You feel unheard, unseen. I don't mean to silence you, but I have. So the question is, am I realizing that it's happening? And how do I make different choices going forward?

• 7:39Dan Harris?

  So how do you define silence? And I know you, as its opposite, you use the term voice. So let's do some definitions of these two concepts.

• 7:50Speaker 05

  I love a good definition. So let me start with voice, because often people think it's just the words that you say in a meeting or what you say in the conversation. To me, voice is how you move through the world and the agency to decide how you're going to move through the world. Silence, you know, there's so much about silence that can be great, that is key to meditation, key to happiness. But the difference between silence that is additive or oppressive is agency. So the silence I'm talking about unlearning is when there's not enough room in the conversation, in the relationship, for your needs, for your thoughts, your preferences. Because it seems like it always has to be the other person's way in order to stay in the relationship, stay in the marriage, stay at the table.

• 8:35Speaker 05

  So how do we create space for each other, for our differences, to really honor the dignity and humanity in each of us?

• 8:44Dan Harris?

  What would you say are the stakes here? For the listener, why is this so important that we sort of unlearn these habits about being silenced and also silencing other people?

• 8:54Speaker 05

  Yeah, let's start with ourselves. Staying silent has real health impacts, right? This epidemic of loneliness, of having your alert system on chronic high alert because you have to edit out parts of yourselves in order to be accepted. It is fundamentally about, do we get to live freely? Do we get to say what we think? Do we get to feel what we feel? Or do we have to show up as versions of ourselves that people expect rather than who we are? The stakes in a relationship are, I may be married to you, but I may never know you. And if I never know you, how could I really love you? In an organization, it is collaboration, innovation, retention, engagement,

• 9:37Speaker 05

  all of these things that really impact the bottom line. But it is this unspoken force that we're not solving for because the problem has been presented as, well, you don't feel heard? Well, just speak up more, have more courage, be more confident versus what silence might be in this ecosystem and how might we each be contributing to it? Not because we're bad people, but because we're human and we butt up against each other.

• 10:05Dan Harris?

  Bianca, let me bring you in. I just, knowing you as I do, I would imagine many of the things Elaine has said ring true. What's going through your head?

• 10:15Speaker 06

  I think everything rings true and that makes it very difficult for me to sort of key in on one thing that, or one context in which to begin talking about it because they're all super relevant. And I guess my mind went to, you know, professional and personal and, you know, self-care. All of these issues come into play, especially as adults in environments that we look to to blame for our difficulties. Certainly for me, being in medicine, it's medicine, it's the hospital. Being in a relationship with an extremely hardworking, extremely vocal, opinionated human, you know, that was another sort of presentation for me.

• 10:56Speaker 06

  But what I really like about your approach to this, and is actually the one that I've just been taking for myself in general over the last few years and trying to understand, in particular, imposter syndrome for me, but just more about my, my neuroses, I guess, and how to improve upon things is really the origin. Because I think the environment and all the things that we want to point to are modifiers, contributors, exacerbators, but you can switch environments and still have the same silence or the same difficulty, you know, with a voice. And really taking a look at the beginning as you're doing, I think is, is key.

• 11:36Dan Harris?

  I want to give some space here. Feel free to respond to anything here. I don't want to overly engineer this whole thing.

• 11:41Speaker 05

  Yeah, I feel like Bianca and I could just have a conversation.

• 11:43Dan Harris?

  Great.

• 11:44Speaker 05

  Not that you're not welcome here.

• 11:46Dan Harris?

  That's fine.

• 11:48Speaker 05

  Right, but but take the being in a relationship. This could be a marriage. This could be a work relationship with an extremely hardworking vocal individual. We each have our own passions. We each have our own wiring. We each have our own preferences until they're squashed. And being a mother often feels like your own needs take last priority. Are the kids fed? Is anyone bleeding? Why is this sticky? Right, where in that juggle? Oh, and the client deadline or the patient. Where in that juggle is there room for me?

• 12:29Speaker 05

  Not because anyone's actively trying to silence me. Right, I would argue in a healthy relationship, I'm not trying to silence my spouse at all. But is there room in our juggle for all the things that we need? And if not, and are we acculturated to put ourselves last? Over time, it happens so subtly. That's the thing about silence. It's an absence and it happens so subtly that you don't even realize it until you wake up 10 years later. Who am I? And I've been walking around as a shell of the person I could be. And going back to the stakes in our relationship, this whole time, they thought they knew me. They thought they loved me. They were with the best of intentions.

• 13:12Speaker 05

  But because I don't know what I need and no one else is asking me what I need and the rhythms and the pace and the patterns, don't ask me that either. For me, the first place is to notice it. Notice, well, what do I need? What a radical idea as we move through the world so quickly to stop and to think and to notice and then ask ourselves, do I want to share that? Do I want to share that with my spouse? Do I want to share that with my manager? Centering the agency that you have around disclosure. That's at least a place to start to honor who we are and what we need, which usually makes us happier.

• 13:57Speaker 06

  Disclosure can be a very scary thing, obviously. And certainly thinking about the workplace in particular.

• 14:04Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 14:04Speaker 06

  In medicine, it is not really okay to disclose that you're not okay, or at least traditionally.

• 14:11Speaker 05

  Totally.

• 14:13Speaker 06

  And, you know, voices are silenced in all sorts of ways. But we also come in with our own silencing of ourselves and of others through our own hurt and fear. Yeah. You know, I met Dan right at the beginning of my training as an internist, my residency component. So no one's really at their best. I truly didn't know that it was an option to not be silent in certain contexts. In other contexts, you know, in medicine, I mean, you, you speak up because that is the way that you get by. But, but the voice that comes out is not always your own. So there was this constant pull between, am I invisible? You know, but I'm surviving and thriving, but is that me?

• 14:58Speaker 06

  And it was quite easy in some ways, even though it was also very scary for Dan and I to have different approaches to communication, both of which had, you know, downsides and both of which perhaps had upsides. To recognize that they actually did something for each of us, right? Like for me, I loved being able to hide in plain sight because I could be with Dan in public at an interesting event, just in conversation and usually, you know, be the less interesting of the two. And so people, you know, I could be privy to all these wonderful things and, and experiences and I could learn. But I wasn't necessarily the one that people were focused on.

• 15:42Speaker 06

  But that only served to sort of like, you know, reinforce the need for silence. And for Dan, it just allowed him to be more Dan, which was highly desirable for Dan for a long time. Fortunately, we've both come a long way and, and those differences have really started to balance out. But it can be very scary, right? To put it out there.

• 16:05Speaker 05

  Absolutely.

• 16:07Dan Harris?

  Do you find that there's, and I don't know if there's any hard data on this, that there are, you know, generally gender divides on this because I think Bianca and I are perhaps stereotypical in that it's easy for me to find my voice and it's easy for me to inadvertently or deliberately in my worst moments silence other people. And Bianca's the exact opposite. And I'm just wondering, is this common in your experience?

• 16:33Speaker 05

  Absolutely. And I would say it's not inherently around gender. It is around acculturation in our societies around gender. What expectations do we have of women? What expectations do we have of children? Let's start there, right? Be seen and not heard. That is something that we often expect of our children. And to be clear, as a parent, I really sometimes want to subscribe to that. And I think about short-term, long-term impacts. But when we talk about gender, the expectations of women either to be docile, to be supportive, to be helpful, to be caring, all silence our own needs. And over time, there's also a

• 17:17Speaker 05

  question of what systems are we operating in? If we look at executive leadership in corporate America, it is still dominated by white men and that forms the norms of how we are supposed to operate. And anytime you carry a subordinated identity, that could be based on gender, race, class, education, you are more likely to be othered, more likely to be second guessed because you're different. And so to me, it is less about someone's gender specifically so much as our societal expectations and how those expectations of those genders show up in the organizations, the teams that we're in.

• 18:04Dan Harris?

  Let me ask this, though. Are there times when silence suits us? When it's actually the right move? Or maybe the comfortable but dysfunctional move?

• 18:14Speaker 05

  Absolutely. That is why chapter three of the book exists. When silence makes sense. Because to say, you always have to speak up ignores reality. So to me, unlearning silence is not about always saying everything. The world is too noisy and complex for that. The stakes and the consequences are real. Bianca, as you mentioned, in terms of disclosure as one example. So I want to honor that silence can actually be an act of self-care. Setting a boundary to say, I don't want to talk about that today with you. I'm going to stay silent, but it is silence I am choosing to enact. Rather than I have to bite my tongue in order to stay in this relationship or stay in this friendship with you.

• 18:57Speaker 05

  So absolutely, silence has a utility. And I want to honor that as a matter of self-care and self-preservation and controlling our narrative and frankly, reaping the benefits of silence. Right? That meditative pause, the pause between stimulus and response. All of that we need more of in this world. And the difference is whether you're choosing it or whether it feels like the only choice.

• 19:24Dan Harris?

  Yeah, to put a fine point on it, there's, it seems like there's healthy silence. You know, like when I go on a silent meditation retreat for 10 days.

• 19:31Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 19:32Dan Harris?

  Or also just the momentary silence that you might invoke to create some buffer between the stimuli in our lives and our blind reaction to said stimuli. So that there's healthy silence, there's self-protective silence that might also be healthy. And then the unhealthy silence is when you have no choice. When it's being imposed on you.

• 19:52Speaker 05

  Well, that's the difference of you choosing to go on a silent retreat versus you being put in solitary confinement for 10 days.

• 19:59Dan Harris?

  Yeah.

• 19:59Speaker 05

  Really different impact.

• 20:01Dan Harris?

  What if my wife forces me to go on a silent retreat? Is that, where does that fit?

• 20:06Speaker 05

  How much are you choosing? I love the complexity of this. I'm going to answer it and then you can decide whether you want to keep it.

• 20:14Speaker 06

  His silent retreats are helpful for me, too.

• 20:17Speaker 05

  Yeah. Where is choice? And, and this is where I wrestle of choice is not always that clear. Because we're married, because we're in this relationship, am I really choosing it or am I choosing it because I want to honor you, because I defer to you, because I know in my finer moments that you might actually be able to see me more clearly than I can see myself, right? Our lives are all intertwined. And the best that we can do is be aware and intentional about our choices and then also the impacts, right? Are we having those conversations,

• 20:57Speaker 05

  Bianca, of what was the impact of being the more silent person at that interesting conversation? Did it serve you in the moment? Did it work for you in the moment? And also, it could have worked then, but it might not work now. And as long as we can have that dialogue, we avoid the negative impacts of silence, of suffering in silence, or silence exasperating, intensifying existing suffering.

• 21:25Dan Harris?

  Where are you at with this now, Bianca, in terms of silence as a choice or silence as something where you feel it's imposed on you?

• 21:34Speaker 06

  Well, I was, I don't know if this answers that directly, but it made me think about you writing books. And right now, we're reviewing one of Dan's upcoming manuscript, which is quite personal and private, as I feel, this conversation notwithstanding. I'm very happy to be open about things that will be helpful for people. But in that process, you know, we have a lot of things to run through regarding experiences we've had and feelings that we have. And so, one of the things we were speaking about recently was a decision that I had made, which I guess silenced Dan, although we didn't put it that

• 22:17Speaker 06

  way in our conversation, when we were going through IVF, a long time ago. And Dan was super busy with his, you know, work, and I was very supportive and very happy. And both as a doctor and as somebody who didn't want to need, I basically gave him a pass on some of the bigger procedures associated with IVF. And he had said, no, but I want to come. I don't have to do that shoot. And I said, no, no, no, I'm fine. And I wasn't fine. And I silenced myself because that was one of the times where I knew I wasn't fine. And I still didn't say anything because I had made the choice for him. And I would think I was too scared for him to begrudgingly come along when he had other

• 23:02Speaker 06

  things he might want to do. But that was incredibly unfair to him because he wanted to be there. So it's interesting to sort of look back on that now. There are many times where as the silent one, I actually silenced Dan out of fear, I think. And that didn't allow his strengths and support to follow through in a way that he actually might have known more what I needed then than I did. So that's an interesting twist for me.

• 23:33Speaker 05

  Absolutely. And Dan, I heard the characterization from Bianca of him coming begrudgingly. That feels like a storyline from where you sit, Bianca. I don't know if that's how it felt, Dan.

• 23:46Speaker 06

  Oh, 100%. That's me.

• 23:49Dan Harris?

  Yeah, I think I hear what Bianca is saying as a storyline in her head, not as a characterization of how I felt about it.

• 23:57Speaker 05

  Yeah, to me, that is so often what we do, though, right? We edit before we even have the conversation with the other person.

• 24:04Dan Harris?

  Yeah.

• 24:05Speaker 05

  And at some level, it's easier because then I'm writing the script to this movie.

• 24:10Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 24:11Speaker 05

  And I actually don't have to allow for the unexpected. I don't have to allow for their personal growth. It's more rigid. It's not necessarily more healthy, but there's a comfort in knowing and having that control. I love that you're having these conversations, though, and able to look backwards because that, to me, is the journey. How did we silence one another? How did we impact one another? How might we move forward in a different way that honors both of us better? Right? That's, that's the beauty of voice in our life together with that intentionality. So often, when people say, oh, I silenced someone, there's self-flagellation, there's guilt, there's shame. To me, there doesn't have to be. If

• 24:56Speaker 05

  that's not how you wanted to show up, the question is, what can you do differently? But we can't figure out what to do differently if we don't talk about it.

• 25:06Dan Harris?

  Coming up, Elaine Lin Hering talks about if and when it is ever appropriate to silence other people, why it's important to try to unpack your own origin story when it comes to your own patterns of silence, and how running small experiments in your daily life can be a great first step here when it comes to learning how to speak up.

• 25:29Speaker 07

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• 25:58Speaker 03

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• 26:18Speaker 04

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• 26:31Dan Harris?

  We talked about how sometimes it's appropriate to choose silence. Is it ever appropriate to choose to silence somebody else?

• 26:41Speaker 05

  There are so many layers to that. And I would anchor to a fundamental principle of honoring everyone's human dignity.

• 26:52Speaker 05

  So to me, the question is, how do we optimize for voice? There's a really practical aspect of the world can't run on consensus, and we can't realistically get input from everyone. So my prescription in the book is, let's get clear on when we're consulting. Clear on when you're actually not being consulted because the friction point is I think I'm being consulted because people say, oh, I need to check with my wife or I need to consult my team. But if the decision's already made and then people don't feel like their voice is heard, you're actually doing more damage over time. So I had optimized for a voice and to me, that moment isn't actively silencing people. It's being clear on what

• 27:36Speaker 05

  we need and where we are in the process, which is the more respectful dignity honoring thing to do.

• 27:43Dan Harris?

  What if somebody's being an asshole or, you know, being harmful isn't inappropriate in those moments? You know, like if Donald Trump was at our dinner table saying a bunch of stupid shit, could I not silence him?

• 27:54Speaker 05

  Yeah, I think you absolutely could. And because though it honors other people's dignity, it honors your own.

• 28:00Dan Harris?

  I see.

• 28:01Speaker 05

  To have those boundaries. And the trap that we often fall into is we don't make those rules and expectations explicit, they're implicit. So we're all looking around at each other, how's this gonna go down versus that's not okay here.

• 28:16Dan Harris?

  This kind of leads to the how to section of the book, which I find it really interesting. But before we move to that, I just want to make sure that there's nothing else either of you wants to say in this stage of the conversation where we're kind of describing the problem.

• 28:30Speaker 05

  I don't feel silenced.

• 28:32Dan Harris?

  Okay.

• 28:32Speaker 05

  In this conversation. I appreciate you checking in as a matter of process. Bianca, what about you?

• 28:38Speaker 06

  I mean, the low hanging fruit, you know, the example that I brought up was an important one and a unique one because I was the one doing the silencing. I think probably where Dan thought I was gonna go, which maybe is important to address, is that typically it would be the other way around. And sometimes he would silence me with silence. And I think that's the place where you fill in that person's silence with your own faulty narrative about it. And that's the most dangerous place to me because that narrative is what clouds certainly my ability to even identify what my needs are because then I'm in like fight or flight based on what other historic garbage is there, you know?

• 29:22Dan Harris?

  I'm so glad you brought this up, Bianca. Oh, did I cut you off?

• 29:25Speaker 06

  I mean, that was really actually quite timely. So that was good. Appropriate.

• 29:28Dan Harris?

  No, but I didn't. I don't want to cut you off. So.

• 29:31Speaker 06

  I know.

• 29:31Dan Harris?

  I got excited.

• 29:35Dan Harris?

  I'm really glad you brought that up because you and I had a conversation the other day that might be worth referencing here, which is that we talked about how one of my dysfunctional go-tos when we've had conflict historically is to just withdraw, stonewall. You know, there was that great T-shirt, "I don't get angry, I get distant."

• 29:55Speaker 05

  Hmm.

• 29:57Dan Harris?

  And I've never felt good about that as a tactic. And you pointed out that actually it might be a trauma response, that, you know, in what we know about trauma, and I know very little, but one of the actually adaptive things that we do in the face of traumatic events is dissociate. So we learn to dissociate when we're really, really, really uncomfortable. And that may be what I'm doing in some of these conversations. And so that's just another aspect of silencing myself, but also silencing you in the process. I don't know if any of this is making any sense.

• 30:32Speaker 05

  That completely tracks the research, right? Silence as a trauma response, as a secondary response. Our work as grownups, as adults, is to interrogate, what am I doing right now? Can you name that I am dissociating, that I am detaching? Do you realize that that is something from the past? There's an origin story behind it, so that the people around you can better understand the response as well. And understand it in that context, fill in the narrative in a more accurate way, which is, oh, this is Dan working through Dan. It's not actually about me.

• 31:14Speaker 06

  Yeah, and I was able to turn down that voice in my head, the negative one. We've been together almost 17 years, I guess, and it took probably half of that time to really be able to, I think, want to investigate. And through the investigation, something came up from Dan's adolescence, that the sort of light bulb went off, that the essence of this experience that he had actually was underlying the response that he would have to me in a number of different circumstances. Which is not to say that I wasn't accountable, and it wasn't also about us, but for the first time, it just sort of silenced the default that it was me.

• 31:58Speaker 06

  Which sometimes is very inconvenient for Dan. But, you know, we actually have, we both have a lot of fun and interest in talking about these things. And I feel very grateful again that, yeah, that we're both exploring it and have a reason to talk about these things without being in the midst of conflict.

• 32:14Speaker 05

  Hmm.

• 32:16Dan Harris?

  Maybe it's worth just very briefly putting some meat on the bone when you referenced that adolescent incident, Bianca. Should I, should I just quickly describe it?

• 32:24Speaker 06

  Totally your call.

• 32:26Dan Harris?

  Yeah, so this is very painful and embarrassing, but when I was in sixth grade, I was involved in bullying and there were a bunch of us doing it, but I was the one who got in trouble for it. And there was like an avalanche of shame and blame that ensued. And what kind of did my head a little bit was that some of it was, it was absolutely correct. I had bullied this kid, but there was also some unfairness in it and some accusations that weren't exactly correct and many other people who weren't getting in trouble. And yeah, it was very hard for me. And I never, ever unpacked it or discussed it ever. And it came

• 33:06Dan Harris?

  up in a couples counseling session with Bianca, in which I said, you know, I think I've realized that when somebody criticizes me, I read it as I'm a horrible person, because that's the story I arrived at when I got busted for bullying this kid. And I told that story in a couples counseling session, and Bianca turned to me and said, that explains every fight we've ever had.

• 33:30Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 33:31Dan Harris?

  Are we way off topic on the, on the subject of silence? Or is this all tracking and resonating and landing for you?

• 33:37Speaker 05

  So what you just described, right? Not talking about that incident for years, silencing it to yourself.

• 33:46Dan Harris?

  Yeah.

• 33:47Speaker 05

  And you think about every fight you ever had with Bianca and how that might have played out. This to me is why we need to unlearn silence. If we're not doing our own work to unpack the traumatic experiences, the painful experiences, the ways that we've been impacted by the lives that we lived, it all leaks out anyways, and not in ways that we intend.

• 34:11Speaker 05

  And often having unintended impacts on the people around us. So I'm so grateful that you have identified that, interrogated it, been able to put words to it, are in conversation with Bianca about it. And I know the stakes of putting something in a book because I just went through that process as well. And that negotiation with your spouse of how are they being characterized? How do they experience being characterized? Who gets to make the decision? Are you consulting? Are you vetoing? Those are all the things we were just talking about. My example in the book is toilet gate with my husband.

• 34:51Speaker 05

  And we went through a couple of iterations about how that vignette, that story is written, because I meant it as a lighthearted example that we would tell to our friends. And it did not land that way for him initially.

• 35:06Dan Harris?

  Well, can you tell the story here?

• 35:07Speaker 05

  Early in our marriage, uh,

• 35:12Speaker 05

  early in our marriage, we were trying to figure out our patterns of who cleans. The 400 square foot apartment that we lived in in San Francisco. I had been traveling for work and I got home that weekend and said, hey, we need to clean the toilet. We should clean the toilet this weekend. And he looked at me and said, I did clean it.

• 35:33Speaker 05

  And I didn't say anything in the moment because of my origin story, right? You, you don't push back in that moment. My relationship with silence is strong. My learned silence is strong. But I, I thought my data points were there are still yellow streaks on the outside of the base of the toilet. How could it be clean? And because I'm going to catastrophize a little bit, when we fast forward, if we have a toddler or a baby crawling around and they lick and explore with their mouth.

• 36:04Speaker 05

  That is not a clean toilet from a hygiene standpoint. How could that be a clean toilet? It took a while. I chose silence and I think in an effective way initially, because I was really dumbfounded. How could this be a clean toilet? And let me not read into, well, what does this say about you? How were you raised? Who did I marry? Sometimes we go there. And it ended up being a helpful conversation where I said, well, when you clean the toilet, how come I still see what I code as unclean on the outside? And he said, who cleans the outside of the toilet? You just clean the part that you use. And again, there was a little bit of like, who did I marry? But the illustration is in the book for me of as we are speaking up,

• 36:49Speaker 05

  as we're having conversations, needing to connect the dots for each other. Because we don't all think in the same way. We're not all wired in the same way. We don't have access to the same information. Do I wish that by default, we had the same definition of what a clean toilet is from the start? Absolutely. It would make life so much easier. But that's actually not realistic to expect if we're all different humans, which we are. And because it is my book, there are some statistics in there about percentage of bacteria per square inch. That might just be my final word on Toilet Gate for now.

• 37:31Speaker 06

  I actually, you know, in talking about silence and voice, I like to go deep with it and I'm into in all sorts of rabbit holes around my origin story and Dan's and how it plays out in the world. But just bringing up cleaning the toilet, this is, I guess, a little more light, but also a real difficult, I think, context for, for women in particular, or at least maybe one spouse, one partner, without being gender specific, when you need something done and how you say it. And is there even a space for saying it in a way that is okay for the other person to not hear is either critical or annoying? So how do we navigate using our voice, which we think we have for like

• 38:16Speaker 06

  the basic things of everyday life, a lot of the time? Not really speaking about deep seated wounds and needs, and not come across, just by virtue of asking, as somebody who maybe needs too much, wants too much, or has a voice that's intolerable.

• 38:33Speaker 05

  Yeah. I'd start with some fundamental principles. I would say that they're truths.

• 38:42Speaker 05

  And you said this earlier, Bianca, as someone who has needs, right? We often worry about being needy when having needs is actually just being human. Because as children, we were vocal, we cried. And it is in the lack of responsiveness to our cries that we lose our voice. So some of that rewiring is starting from fundamental premises of, do I have needs? Yes. Does it make you needy? No. How might you express those needs? How might people hear them? Because that's a virtuous cycle of, if you express your needs, I can hear them.

• 39:25Speaker 05

  Better yet, how do I invite someone else's needs into the mix? And be curious about them so we can jointly solve for them? One of my mental hacks there is classic negotiation theory, which says every party to a negotiation has a set of interests. Interests are needs, goals, hopes, and concerns. But what I forget is that I'm actually a party to the negotiation. Am I an active player in this dynamic? Or am I an observer? And too often, we take ourselves out of the equation to say, I'm actually not a party. But if I were to think of myself as a party to this negotiation,

• 40:10Speaker 05

  of course, I would have needs, goals, hopes, concerns of my own. I'm not taking up too much space. I just am a factor in this equation.

• 40:19Speaker 05

  And those start to change both the calculus and the perception. And then in terms of externalizing it, I would start with small experiments. The story I use in the book is I'm in a taxi after landing in Seattle and I tried to open the window to get some fresh air. And it pressed the button, didn't work. And I'm doing this mental calculation that maybe resonates of, well, like, there's only 22 minutes left on the GPS. I guess I can suck it up for that time. And then, wait, I'm a paying passenger. Shouldn't I be able to get fresh air in the back of this cab?

• 40:59Speaker 05

  Okay, we're on a pretty congested freeway, so the likelihood of the driver getting mad at me and throwing me into a ditch is pretty small. And then finally, opening my mouth and saying, hey, can you open the window? And the driver didn't say anything back. He just pressed a button and the window opened and it's like the freshest air, the most crisp air I've ever breathed in my life. But given my wiring, my history over time, that was a small experiment that, to me, was pretty low risk. Right? I'm never going to see the guy again, probably be okay, probably not going to be physically harmed. Can we experiment in a way that gets us more data points that show us it is okay to ask?

• 41:42Speaker 05

  And can we each, as a way of wanting to care for, lead people well, inquire as to what do you need? How can I support you today? Rather than assuming or rather than failing to calculate that that person might also be a party to the equation or the negotiation and therefore has a set of needs.

• 42:08Dan Harris?

  Coming up, Elaine talks about the importance of people in our lives who can act as sounding boards, how we often misjudge the cost benefit analysis when it comes to speaking up versus staying silent, and her four step plan for finding your voice.

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• 43:33Dan Harris?

  So now we've moved into the "What Do You Do About This?" part of the conversation. And in the book, you explicitly recommend what you just talked about there, which is running experiments as a way to figure out how to use this voice that may have been stifled for much of our lifetimes. Another thing you talk about is using sounding boards. What does that mean?

• 43:55Speaker 05

  Yeah, too often,

• 43:59Speaker 05

  I think we go to people and we don't necessarily know what we're asking of them. And a sounding board, if you think about it from a pulpit, is actually literally the board that bounces back the sound that goes there and reflects back. So a sounding board is like holding up a mirror. They're not necessarily there to tell you what you think or what you should do, but to reflect back. To you, what are you hearing? And the power of that is it's really hard when you're in it. It's really hard when you're in it to see the dynamic clearly because of all of the things of our own story, because of power is often invisible to those who have it.

• 44:41Speaker 05

  But a sounding board is a place where you can throw spaghetti in the wall, see what lands, see what it's like to come out of your mouth. In my work, coaching people to ask, to make requests, to negotiate, there's often a difference between the fear laden version of, oh, my gosh, what would it sound like if I were to ask Dan for this versus practice it, try it on for size. And the sounding board is a place where you can try it on for size. Therefore, getting the embodied experience of, oh, that wasn't so bad. I can't actually say those words. Or the sounding board saying, I have no idea what you're asking for. Right? Because of mitigated speech, I don't, I don't understand what you're saying.

• 45:24Speaker 05

  So I'm not sure the other person's going to get it either. What do we need to do? Right? Let's do take two.

• 45:31Dan Harris?

  How do we calculate the cost benefit of speaking up? And I know this is something you, you address in the book. I think there's something called the, is it an Amy Edmondson, who's been on the show, who's also a Harvard professor, talks about the, the voice risk analysis or something like that, voice cost?

• 45:50Speaker 05

  Yeah. Amy Edmondson terms it the voice silence calculation. And a flippant response to your question of how do we calculate cost and benefit to speaking up is poorly. We often, as human beings, over index on the short term costs to ourselves. Like I have to deal with discomfort of how they might react, or I have to pick up the phone and even call a sounding board. I don't have time for that right now. We over index on the short term costs and we under index on the long term costs of if I don't have this conversation now, what's going to happen in five days, in five months, in five years? What's the long term impact?

• 46:32Speaker 05

  Now, Amy Edmondson's voice silence calculation makes the observation that part of why that calculation is tricky is because the costs of speaking up are usually incurred by me.

• 46:45Speaker 05

  And the benefits of speaking up are reaped by the group or by everyone. The costs to me are pretty guaranteed. I feel the palms, the sweat in my palms right now. I feel my heartbeat going faster. And the benefits of speaking up are not necessarily guaranteed. In fact, I could incur more costs. So for me, the question is, how do we make that calculation more accurately? And there are two biases that I discuss in the book for us to watch out for. One is that present bias, right? What happens in the short term versus what happens in the long term? We tend to be short term thinkers.

• 47:28Speaker 05

  And then the other is the self bias, which is focusing much more on what I think in the moment than the self bias where I'm thinking much more about me than most everyone else. It's related to the spotlight effect.

• 47:45Dan Harris?

  So how do those biases operate? And it sounds like they operate in unhelpful ways when we're, we're running the cost benefit analysis.

• 47:53Speaker 05

  Totally. So I would say notice them, be aware of them. Because then you can ask yourself, not just what are the costs of speaking up in the moment, but what are the costs over time if I don't? And also asking, what are the benefits? You know, we're talking about the benefits of staying silent, that it is familiar, that we can preserve the peace. But what are the potential benefits of speaking up as well? That things might change, that we might have greater intimacy, that I might actually be known, that my needs might be met in a different way. So by noticing the patterns of human nature and the biases and the traps that we fall into, we can then solve for them and do a more accurate calculation.

• 48:35Dan Harris?

  So let me see if I can do a concrete example. Notwithstanding the fact that I think I've been pretty much correctly portrayed as somebody who finds his voice easy to access and can be, you know, a bit of a barbarian on that front. There is one area where I really do struggle, which is giving people clear and candid feedback. And I've gotten that feedback consistently, that that is not one of my strong suits. And so it's something I've thought about a lot. And so there's actually somebody in my life who's a friend who's asking for a favor that is actually inappropriate. And so I could imagine, and I've had these thoughts of, well, maybe the easiest thing to do is just. Fuck it, just say yes to this thing even though I don't want to do it. And also, so that's the present bias. I'll just get it over with.

• 49:19Dan Harris?

  Whereas actually, I'll be living with the consequences of this yes for a while. So that bias is, you know, skewing in an unhelpful way. My decision making matrix. And the second way, the second bias you mentioned is the self bias where I'm telling myself a whole story about how if I speak up for myself in this case, I'm gonna, you know, the other person's not gonna like me. When in fact, there are probably a million other things going on than, you know, his opinion of me.

• 49:47Speaker 05

  Yeah. And then to factor into that analysis, what's the benefit of you saying something to your friend? What's the potential benefit?

• 49:56Dan Harris?

  Well, there are a bunch of complex ramifications that are inappropriate to discuss right now that that would be positive. Negative if I don't speak up and positive if I do in terms of the actual situation, the favor and the tendrils that come out of it. But also actually, there's potentially a positive in our relationship, which is, you know, I find that when I do gin up the gumption to give clear, candid feedback, that it is generally good for the relationship.

• 50:25Speaker 05

  Mm hmm. I love that you said gin up the gumption because gumption is a little bit like courage or confidence, right? And, and all of those things are necessary. I'd say courage is necessary, but not sufficient. The other lever that we have in our relationships to increase the likelihood that people give us the tough love or the candid feedback is to change the calculation for them. If I knew that when I spoke up, you would hear me, it would be well received. You might even appreciate me or reward me. How much more likely than would I be to speak up? And I'd argue that we each have the power to change the calculation for each other by changing the way we show up, right?

• 51:09Speaker 05

  Choosing not to be defensive in the moment, to actively invite the feedback to say also, here's the way that you can get through to me best. I actually process best by reading or texting rather than real time verbal. If so, you know, the way to best get through to me typically makes it easier for you to actually share what you think.

• 51:33Dan Harris?

  Yes, so now I think we've moved the conversation from how do you find your own voice to how do you encourage other people to find their voice? And you talked about how if you can incentivize people by giving them a hit of dopamine every time they speak up, then you are really going to help them find their voice. And also, I've found in my own experience, the more I can, back to Amy Edmondson, create what she calls psychological safety on my team, where I of course have a lot of power. If I can use my power to reward people publicly for telling me things that I don't want to hear, that is not only good for the team, but it's good for me.

• 52:10Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 52:11Dan Harris?

  No, I'm not, I don't want to pretend I'm perfect at this. I'm sure I continue to be scary in lots of ways that I don't have full visibility into. But I have found that this is a virtuous cycle if I can set it in motion.

• 52:22Speaker 05

  Yeah, and I would call that you're building a culture of voice, because the narrative over time is, oh, it's okay to say things to Dan. In fact, it's good. Right? And there are enough data points for other people who might be skeptical of that or come from different life histories, different work teams, where it wasn't okay to do that, to say, okay, I can point to concrete examples of when other people did it, and they're still here. In fact, they're even better respected, and I might be able to do it too. It becomes the norm. It becomes the culture of voice rather than the culture of silence.

• 52:58Dan Harris?

  Bianca, what do you got? What's going through your head?

• 53:01Speaker 06

  I was hanging on to your comment about how you process things better by reading and writing. And I can relate to that, not just because I have some fear, I'm just not as well-practiced in sort of the face-to-face component of things, although I'm getting better, but because I actually do feel like I express myself better that way.

• 53:25Speaker 06

  Except that I'm not sure that everybody does. And on the receiving end of it, I worry that A, things can always get misinterpreted somehow. Things are super clear to you and just come across as like gobbledygook on the other side. And also, you know, it could be the total opposite for that other person. And how much do you worry about that over what works for you? So that dance is very challenging to me. And sometimes I use it against myself because I just say, well, are you just not sort of courageous enough to, you know, zoom with someone? I mean, I don't even zoom my therapist. Like, we talk on the phone. I just, that's just me. But I guess knowing your audience and knowing

• 54:10Speaker 06

  who you're speaking with matters. But you seem to be very confident that that's what works for you. And I guess I'm just wondering, do you feel differently about your voice if you're not doing it the way that works best for you?

• 54:24Speaker 05

  I do, because I've tried it the other way. Right? I'm a pretty good imitation of some other people. And this gets back to dominant paradigms as well, where in the workplace in corporate America, the mode of communication that is prized is real-time communication in three succinct bullet points with enough emotion to show that you care, but not enough emotion that you might lose credibility, particularly if you present as female, versus a Slack message that is well documented, could be three to seven bullet points with a lot of detail. Right? Why do we prioritize one mode of communication over others? And what are we collectively, going, Dan, back to your question of what's

• 55:07Speaker 05

  at stake, what are we collectively missing out on if we cannot hear people who communicate more effectively and play to their strengths in a different way?

• 55:19Speaker 05

  It's taken trial and error and it has taken pushing back on how the dynamic is normally framed, which is to say that if you don't communicate in real time in that way, that's a source of weakness. That's a deficit that you need to work on versus we're all wired differently. We're not even getting into neurodiversity there, but we're all wired differently. So of course we would have different strengths and communicate in different ways. And, and the question is, how do we design our communication flows to optimize for voice? Which means if Bianca, if your preference and it is easier for you to be candid, particularly

• 55:59Speaker 05

  in therapy, candid by talking on the phone and not having to worry about pixelation on video, why shouldn't it be not only okay, but advantageous to talk on the phone? And to me, it's not one way or the other. It's can we actively have that conversation? So when you're talking about communicating with a friend and is this version going to work for them, what's the impact on them? To me, that's, that's actually the conversation. The example I use in the book is that a friend of mine prefers audio notes, you know, voice memos in texting. And that works well for her because she's breastfeeding right now and her baby sleeps

• 56:44Speaker 05

  through noises. And so she'll leave me the voice message and I listen to it and pick it up. I am usually sneak texting in the line at the grocery store or while playing Legos with my son. And so I can't record that voice memo. I also can't listen to it. But if I can sneak text back with my two thumbs and she's willing to receive it in typed format rather than audio format and both of us accepting, right? You don't have to communicate to me in the, in the way that is easiest for me to communicate to you, but I can hear you in that way. That's actually what has kept our friendship going versus the requirement of in order

• 57:25Speaker 05

  to be in a relationship with me, you need to communicate with me in exactly the way that I prefer, which may not be realistic for your life stage or play to your strengths in terms of wiring. And we're creating an additional barrier to communication, which is also an additional barrier to intimacy or effective collaboration.

• 57:46Dan Harris?

  It's making me think of Jerry Colonna, who's a great executive coach who I work with personally, and Bianca knows him as well. He talks about giving everybody in your orbit an operator's manual for you. And I think that sounds like a nice component of a healthy culture, and it could be workplace, or the home, or a friendship, or anything.

• 58:06Speaker 05

  Yeah. And the benefit of the operating manual is that it's not a directive. It's not a prerequisite to interacting with me. It is context to better understand how I show up.

• 58:19Dan Harris?

  Yep.

• 58:19Speaker 05

  The downfall I hear with the operating manual is, well, these are the terms and conditions in which you are able to engage with me, which does not open up the lines of communication.

• 58:29Dan Harris?

  You were gonna say something, Bianca?

• 58:31Speaker 06

  Just that the idea of knowing your operating manual is a barrier for a lot of people.

• 58:37Dan Harris?

  Yeah.

• 58:37Speaker 06

  And if you start off in silence and without a voice.

• 58:41Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 58:42Speaker 06

  You know, I very much support this because I think I'm in that place where I understand mine.

• 58:48Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 58:49Speaker 06

  But it's taken a long time, and that in and of itself is a big ask.

• 58:54Speaker 05

  Totally. This is where I'd go back to experiments.

• 58:57Speaker 06

  Mm hmm.

• 58:58Speaker 05

  You don't have to write your operating manual as gospel. You can write it as, here are my operating hypotheses. Here's what I think I know about myself. It's probably gonna change because I'm human, not because I'm unreliable or unaware, but because we continue to evolve. So can we at least be in conversation about it? I'll update you as I discover things about myself, too. I hope you'll do the same.

• 59:23Dan Harris?

  Elaine, in the book, you have these four steps for how to speak up. I'll list them, and then maybe you can unpack. The first one is start with why. The second is connect the dots. The third is make the ask clear. And then the final is embrace resistance. Can you walk us through these?

• 59:40Speaker 05

  Yeah, absolutely. This was a response to people are often saying, okay, I want to speak up. I have that mindset shift of I think my voice matters. How do I actually do it? And while there are useful phrases to get you started, the reality as we've been talking about is each of our voices is going to sound different. So the words, the specific words I use are going to be different than Bianca or you might use. The anchors are intended to anchor you when the waves of self doubt or frustration or confusion inevitably come. And of course, because other people don't follow your script for how a conversation would go, you have something to hold on to.

• 1:00:23Speaker 05

  So start with why is, you know, Simon Stanek has done a lot on this, but why might I even want to have the conversation? Why might I want to use my voice? What is the bigger thing that matters to me more than my immediate fear or discomfort or uncertainty? That would lead me to have this conversation? And this is Keegan and Leahy's research around behavior change. And if you know your bigger why, you have a reason to keep going. Second is connect the dots, and that was toilet gate. And we're inevitably going to see things differently as much as I might want to have the expectation that other people would just understand me.

• 1:01:03Speaker 05

  I am, as I often say to my son, I, I am going to have to use my words and share my perspective from where I sit. My perspective is legitimate. It is also limited, which means that I can own my perspective. But connecting the dots for someone else for how I see it allows them to say, oh, I, I wouldn't have thought about it that way. Or, oh, I didn't know that. Or here's what I think is missing from that. Third is make clear the ask because so often we want to love our spouses. We want to be supportive colleagues, but we don't actually know what people are asking of us. And so if I can articulate, you know what, Bianca, what I really need is a listening ear.

• 1:01:46Speaker 05

  Or today I need your best advice. Then Bianca can actually show up well for me versus having the YouTube video. It's not about the nail become our real life experiences. And fourth is embrace resistance because.

• 1:02:03Speaker 05

  As much as we might hope that when we speak up, people are like, yes, I'm on board, green light, here's your funding, we're good to go. That's not reality. But if you ever work with salespeople, you know that any engagement is considered good because engagement means interest of some sort. Resistance, pushback is actually information if we can unpack it. So if someone gets defensive to not be thrown off by their reaction, but to engage it and say, well, what concerns do you have? What would need to be different in order for you to be on board?

• 1:02:44Speaker 05

  Those four anchors give us things to grasp onto in this journey and conversation that can inevitably be awkward, difficult, and full of the unexpected.

• 1:02:55Dan Harris?

  How does that recipe sound to you, Dr. Harris?

• 1:02:58Speaker 06

  Yeah, I mean, I think it's very helpful to be able to succinctly bullet point them like you're doing because this all makes sense and seems to be floating in my head somewhere. But for you to be able to pull it all together is super helpful to articulate the things that we think we're learning and discovering. But in fact, there's like, you know, real thought and organization behind these ideas out there.

• 1:03:23Dan Harris?

  I like the last part because I'm always worried about what's gonna, you know, are people gonna freak out? Like the friend I need to talk to, is he gonna freak out and get defensive or whatever? And so just to be armed with some simple questions. Remind me of the questions, but they sounded really good.

• 1:03:39Speaker 05

  I'm glad. What, what concerns do you have? Right? What about this doesn't land? What would need to be true for you to say yes? It's gonna differ based on the context, but essentially it's, okay, you're not on board. What's behind that? Let me understand that. And by understanding that, I better understand you and we can craft a way forward.

• 1:04:04Dan Harris?

  All right, let's talk about how to stop silencing other people. I'll list some of the concepts that you list in the book, and then maybe you can pick a few of them and talk about them. Recognizing your default, articulating the norms, providing your endorsement of how somebody else communicates, making norms and assumptions explicit, and getting out of the way. Those are some of the ideas that you list as ways to help other people find their voice. Which of those leap out to you as worthy of unpacking here?

• 1:04:35Speaker 05

  I'm gonna add one there because, Dan, you said you identified and people know you as someone who doesn't struggle with using your voice. This is chapter five of the book, of the Ways That We Silence Other People. One of the ways that we silence people is fundamentally forgetting or underestimating how difficult it might be for someone else to use their voice. If I've always been really comfortable speaking my mind and my voice has been accepted, or I just don't worry so much about pushback, then we forget that someone like me might be sitting in the back of a cab having a 20-minute conversation with herself about asking a taxi driver to open the damn window.

• 1:05:18Speaker 05

  And as we're leading our teams, how might I approach it with, "Well, what's your relationship with silence? What have you learned? How hard is this for you to know that?" And that awareness even unlocks a conversation, unlocks empathy toward a different way. The one that I'll pick up on in not silencing other people is lending your social capital. And this gets back to normalizing that it can be okay to sound different than someone else. I get this question all the time, particularly for people who are English second language speakers. And saying as a concerned colleague, "They're cutting her out of the meeting," and it's usually gendered. "They're cutting her out of the meeting.

• 1:06:03Speaker 05

  She's the most brilliant person. I don't know what to do." We have these private conversations where I empathize, where I say, "Oh, well, that really sucks," or "They should do differently." And I get really frustrated because that private commiseration is a nice dopamine hit. There's connectedness, but it doesn't fundamentally change what's happening in public.

• 1:06:28Speaker 05

  And so my invitation is, how can we use each of our own social capital? Particularly if I'm someone for whom using my voice or finding my voice isn't an issue? How can I lend my endorsement, right? Hey, y'all should really listen to Bianca because she has the most nuanced analysis of the situation I've ever heard. Never mind that Bianca might be English second language, or might have a bunch of ums, or God forbid, tear up in the conversation, right? But you are using your social capital to say, hey, listen to this person? So that you are both disrupting biases that we might have, assumptions we might have

• 1:07:10Speaker 05

  about whether to listen to that person, and lending your endorsement.

• 1:07:16Dan Harris?

  That's all very helpful.

• 1:07:19Dan Harris?

  I think in our closing moments here, it might be worth talking about silencing as parents. You said earlier that as a parent, Elaine, you, there are moments where you're like, yeah, I would love if this child would be seen and not heard. I certainly feel that way. So what are your thoughts about how we can create a culture of voice, to use your term, in our own house without like creating endless mayhem?

• 1:07:43Speaker 05

  This is an everyday negotiation. I do the same cost benefit analysis that we talked about, short term, long term. And again, this is from my lived experience of if I enforce silence right now, it might make today easier because I don't have to deal with their opinions. But what kind of human being am I really trying to raise? I want my son to have opinions, thoughts of his own, and the ability to communicate them over time, which means I am going to have to listen to some of those opinions today to help him have the data points that say, hey, I used my voice and it actually mattered.

• 1:08:26Speaker 05

  Hey, it is okay for me to have needs because I am human. And to avoid the mayhem part, each of our voices exist next to in community with in relationship with someone else's. So the conversation we often have is what's the impact you're having on other people? And let me name that when you storm, I'm having flashbacks to this morning, when you storm around the house stomping, it makes it really hard for me to answer your question. Can we take a deep breath together? Right? Articulating that impact rather than my perpetuating my silence of just sucking it

• 1:09:11Speaker 05

  up, of just tolerating it. And I'm still in a multi-year experiment with this sort of parenting. So let me report back in about a decade as to outcomes. But my hope is that that at least means that he's unlearning different things as a grown up than the ones that I and so many people now are unlearning around silence.

• 1:09:37Dan Harris?

  Bianca, what do you got?

• 1:09:39Speaker 06

  I'm having the opposite problem with Alexander right now. I think we've given him a voice. And this is, this is where our personalities are like coming to clash a little bit, or challenges, I should say. This morning, the usual like, get ready, go to school, did you get dressed, blah, blah, blah. 20 minutes later, he's not dressed, but I'm annoyed. I'm stern. I tell him so. And he makes an argument that it was the first time he heard it. And what was really upsetting to him, let me speak, he said, was your tone. I didn't like your tone, because you didn't give me a chance to get dressed. You just started, you know, coming in at me. I said, Well, you didn't actually hear

• 1:10:24Speaker 06

  me. He's like, Well, you forget stuff all the time. So you can imagine that thing playing out. But he's very comfortable speaking his mind. And those moments are challenging to me as someone who is just getting used to their voice. And I don't have the balance.

• 1:10:41Speaker 06

  Dan is smirking because sometimes he just observes it. It's ridiculous.

• 1:10:46Dan Harris?

  No, I'm smirking because Juju Chang, who's a great friend of ours, amazing journalist at ABC News, who I worked with for, you know, decades, has a funny expression, which is be careful who you sleep with because you'll end up raising them.

• 1:11:01Speaker 05

  It is so true. And in advocacy of Bianca, I want to ask this question, which is Bianca, and from the principle that we don't unlearn silence on our own, it is group work, not individual work. So we're each building a team. How can the people around you support you on this journey as you're experimenting with finding and using your voice, right? What could your son do differently? What could your spouse do differently that would support you?

• 1:11:33Speaker 06

  I don't want to put that on my son. Maybe that's wrong, but just to table that for a minute, just with his issues. I think with Dan, one of the complexities is that it is 99% me in the functional routine in the household. And if he's not there, it's just what I have to contend with. Mornings are unpleasant and, you know, I'm not actually insecure about what I said being inappropriate or poorly timed. It's when Dan is there and has actually silenced himself because he's not part of the routine, and maybe a little bit because he doesn't want to get in the fray because he doesn't

• 1:12:13Speaker 06

  have that much time and wants it to be sweet with Alexander, that, you know, he'll only really join in if I'm being fully disrespected, which I appreciate, or, you know, when it's really necessary. So I think with a witness, it would be really helpful if you could partake in the morning routine and also be on him before I have to like, you know, escalate to stern mommy. You can think about it.

• 1:12:41Dan Harris?

  Yeah, no, I'm now even more determined to stay on the other side of the house during the morning routine.

• 1:12:51Dan Harris?

  No, I think it makes complete sense.

• 1:12:54Speaker 06

  They're smart little buggers, you know?

• 1:12:56Dan Harris?

  Yeah, they are. Elaine, this has been great. Is there a place you were hoping to go here that we didn't get to?

• 1:13:04Speaker 05

  I think where I'd want to leave us all, and you can tell me whether we've gotten there with the groundwork that we've laid, where I want to leave us all is that we can make different choices going forward, that the silence we've learned that has shaped our past and influences our present doesn't have to be the habit that we perpetuate tomorrow or in the next conversation. It is hard, it is uncomfortable, it is deep work at times, it is real conversations. But to me, the benefits of intimacy, of being known, of working together instead of working around one another, make it worth it.

• 1:13:48Dan Harris?

  Well said. Bianca, any closing thoughts? Do you feel complete? Or do you have something else you want to add?

• 1:13:55Speaker 06

  I think she does complete me.

• 1:13:59Speaker 06

  No, I really appreciate that.

• 1:14:01Dan Harris?

  The final thing I always want to ask is, can you just remind everybody of the name of your book and, you know, website, socials, anything worth plugging?

• 1:14:10Speaker 05

  Yeah. The book is Unlearning Silence: How to Speak Your Mind, Unleash Talent, and Live More Fully. I am on LinkedIn, Instagram, and have a monthly newsletter. You can find it all on ElaineLynnHerring.com.

• 1:14:26Dan Harris?

  Elaine and Bianca, thank you.

• 1:14:28Speaker 06

  Thank you.

• 1:14:28Speaker 05

  Thank you.

• 1:14:32Dan Harris?

  Thank you to Elaine. Also, thank you to Bianca. Don't forget to go sign up at DanHarris.com if you want to participate in our free New Year's Meditation Challenge, which will be running from January 5th through the 11th. Joseph Goldstein will be our teacher. He has crafted an amazing series of seven guided meditations that really are a kind of masterclass and on-ramp.

• 1:14:55Dan Harris?

  To Buddhist meditation, great for beginners, great for people who've been meditating for a long time. I cannot stress strongly enough how amazing this is and how awesome it would be if you join us. I'll be doing the challenge right alongside you. I'll be doing a bunch of live sessions to complement the challenge, video sessions where you can come meditate a little bit more with me and then ask me some questions. It's going to be amazing and it will be run through our new 10% app, which I can't believe I get to say, I can't believe I get to have an app again. If you want to sign up for the challenge and for the app, go to danharris.com. The challenge is totally free and there's also a free 30-day trial for the app if you want to try it before you buy it. Yeah, super excited about this.

• 1:15:37Dan Harris?

  Finally, thank you to everybody who worked so hard on this show. Our producers are Tara Anderson and Eleanor Vasili. Our recording and engineering is handled by the great folks over at Pod People. Lauren Smith is our managing producer. Marissa Schneiderman is our senior producer. DJ Cashmere is our executive producer and Nick Thorburn of the band Islands wrote our theme.

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