Pod Insights IMO with Michelle Obama and Craig Robinson IMO Presents: The Look Live with Tracee Ellis Ross About this episode On this special live episode of IMO, actress, founder and CEO Tracee Ellis Ross joins Michelle Obama at the Brooklyn Academy of Music to discuss Mrs. Obama’s latest book, The Look. Together, they talk about why Michelle has chosen to finally talk openly about her fashion journey, the team behind her most memorable looks, and how she has stayed true to herself throughout the White House years and beyond.
Learn more about The Look here https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/775527/the-look-by-michelle-obama-with-meredith-koop-foreword-by-farah-jasmine-griffin/
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Transcript 11,531 words · 5 speakers
Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:00 Michelle Obama? I knew immediately, and I knew this coming in as First Lady, that I was in charge of my story, my narrative. I had to be smarter than them. I had to outsmart everyone. And that came to everything I did, including what I wore.
0:19 Michelle Obama? This episode is brought to you by Alloy Women's Health.
0:28 Michelle Obama? It's for us all. Can people hear? Mics on?
0:31 Speaker 01 Are the mics on?
0:32 Michelle Obama? Mics on.
0:33 Speaker 01 Are the mics on? The mics are on.
0:35 Michelle Obama? It's about fashion, y'all.
0:37 Speaker 01 It's about fashion, y'all. And you are fashioning.
0:39 Michelle Obama? We brought a little fashion along.
0:41 Speaker 01 You look gorgeous.
0:42 Michelle Obama? So do you, babe. Thank you. Thank you for being here. And thank you all. Thank you all for coming out.
0:48 Speaker 01 Thank you for being you. Thank you for being you. This is really a wonderful moment. Hello, everybody. Thank you for being here. That wonderful applause, I really appreciated it.
1:02 Speaker 01 It wasn't for me.
1:07 Speaker 01 OK. So I have been lucky enough to have many conversations with you through the years, most of them personal, but some public. And one of the consistent things about our conversations and our connection is our curiosity about how to navigate life, no matter what kind of life it is that you're living, with care and joy while being fully yourself and how you connect yourself to a larger purpose. So coming together to talk about The Look. Your latest book that chronicles your style and your beauty journey feels particularly special for me because we get to have yet another conversation about your groundbreaking
1:51 Speaker 01 significance as First Lady. And the... Yeah.
1:58 Speaker 01 And the extraordinary woman that you are, but this time through a new lens, through the lens of fashion and hair, fashion as a language that can facilitate purpose. I am a believer in the agency and opportunity that fashion can offer. How we express ourselves through what we wear can tell people how we want them to regard us. It's not always about the what, sometimes it's just about the how. Our clothes can be a tool for creativity and joy and expression of freedom. They can connect us to our history and message the future. It can seem like an unimportant and frivolous topic. And for a black woman, who is our first black First Lady, it is certainly not.
2:46 Speaker 01 During your years, I swear I'll get to a question. During your White House years, you used what you wore as a language. You used what you wore as an opportunity to tell the world who you are and what you believe in. And honestly, this book, this book could have just been a bunch of beautiful pictures and we would have eaten it up and we would have loved it. But in perfect Michelle Obama fashion, you did more. So up until this point, you've not spoken publicly about fashion. You let your clothes do their own talking and they've talked really well. But now you've decided to publish this book. So why this book and why now?
3:29 Michelle Obama? Thank you, Tracy. Thank you all. Why this book? Why this book now?
3:36 Michelle Obama? During the eight years that I was First Lady, I purposefully avoided talking about fashion because I thought it would be a distraction from everything else that I did. I realized very early on that as a woman in the public eye, and I write about this, is that we are often reduced to what we look like. We are often attacked for what we look like. And I experienced that during the first campaign. I realized that I could give a passionate substantive speech, and it would be covered well in person. But in the press, invariably, it would start out with,
4:18 Michelle Obama? "She was wearing a blank," as if I had said nothing at all. So that experience kind of shook me to think, I don't want to be solely defined by how I look, what I wear. I want my work to speak for itself.
4:37 Michelle Obama? But now that we're almost 10 years out of the White House, and I've written two books,
4:46 Michelle Obama? I think, yes, y'all.
4:50 Michelle Obama? It has been a while. We are, that "former" part is real. Former. We don't want to believe it. It is true. It's been almost a decade that we have been in the White House, and I've written two books. And I really do feel like the world, the country, knows who I am. So now it's time to talk about the how of fashion, because I knew it was always important. I wanted to wait until it felt like it was time. And I think now is a good time. As you said, the book is a collection of beautiful photographs. It is a lovely walk down memory lane. But I want everybody who gets the book to read the essays as well.
5:36 Michelle Obama? We have a wonderful foreword by my dear friend Farrah Griffin, who I think is here. There she goes. And I take you through the journey, the process. I want you to meet the team. So this book is as much an homage to the people who helped me be me in that period of time, my trifecta. You're gonna learn about them, their stories, their journeys.
6:04 Speaker 01 And you allow them to tell their own story, which is beautiful.
6:07 Michelle Obama? Absolutely.
6:07 Speaker 01 They use it through their own voices.
6:09 Michelle Obama? Their stories are amazing. They were all kids when they started out. I mean, I'm literally talking, Yanay, my hairstylist was 19 years old when she came to the White House and was working under Johnny Wright. But this team is amazing.
6:26 Speaker 01 One of the things, so I'm gonna brag and say, Michelle and I are friends, and I can actually call her Michelle after all these years. It took me a really long time.
6:34 Michelle Obama? Finally. It's like, Tracy, come on, girl.
6:36 Speaker 01 It was weird. It was hard, though, because, you know, there's so much reverence. But it's weird, you don't want to curtsy when you see your friends for dinner. It's weird.
6:44 Michelle Obama? No, no. Gets old. It's like, get up, girl, get up.
6:51 Speaker 01 But one of the things that's really special about you and your husband is your teams have remained the same. So since, because I campaigned early, it was 2007 when I met you guys. And the team is the same, so many of the same people, and it's a really beautiful testament to who you are. And even the fact that you would write a book and allow, not just to talk about your team, but to allow them to use their own voice is such an expression of who you are and how you were First Lady and how you are as a human being. And so it is wonderful to read in that sense, even though it is a picture book, it's wonderful to read. So, thank you. Mine's all marked up.
7:28 Michelle Obama? And fashion is, it's real business. It's a job. And that's what you learn, especially as a woman. I don't know about you, men, you know? But it takes a lot of work to show up in a way that we're expected to show up. And my team has worked tirelessly behind the scenes with no fanfare, no acknowledgement, because that was important, because we didn't talk about fashion. And now I want to give them some shine. And I also want to give some shine to... All of the incredible designers who supported me all throughout the years. I don't know if any one of them are here. But fashion is meaningful.
8:11 Michelle Obama? And they, there were a lot of people who worked, they didn't, they made dresses, they sewed buttons, they did all the things, not even knowing whether I would put on the thing that they made.
8:21 Speaker 01 And also, during the time that you were in the White House, you gave platform to so many designers that didn't have a voice, or weren't, that's not true. Everyone has a voice, that weren't in the light in that way. I can think of a whole bunch of different names, Takun, and they've left me now.
8:40 Michelle Obama? Jason Wu, and Philip Lim, and Tracy Reese, and on and on and on. Because when you go to Washington, there are a lot of, this is how we've always done it, that is thrown at you, the expectation. And when it came to fashion, there was, there were a limited number of designers who had an expectation that they would be able to dress the First Lady. And some people got a little attitude about it. It was an expectation. But if you recall, our administration was about opening up opportunities for more people. It was always about expanding opportunities for people who otherwise wouldn't have it,
9:24 Michelle Obama? those opportunities, talented, qualified, diverse people. And now is the time for us to be reminded of the power, the influence, the contribution of immigrants, of women, of minorities, of people of all races. And it is particularly true when it comes to the fashion community. So this book is a big, warm hug to that community as well, so.
9:56 Speaker 01 Thank you for saying it that way and for reminding, again, bringing it back to purpose. I have a friend who told me a story about ladies in the first Puget church and what she learned as a little girl, that the hats and the clothes she wore told her how they wanted to be regarded. And I remember how my mom got dressed for life and for stage and told me that, and it told me that how you clothe yourself is something that can give you agency. And one of the things my mom did that I noticed is that the clothes that she wore were not about "look at me," they were about "this is me." And it's something that-
10:34 Michelle Obama? Mmm.
10:37 Michelle Obama? "This is me."
10:39 Speaker 01 Okay. So, what was your relationship with fashion when you were growing up? What messages did you receive from the way the women in your life dressed when you were young?
10:50 Michelle Obama? You know, I grew up poor, working class, because poor is a different kind of mindset. And we always had enough, but we lived with a certain amount of scarcity and, you know, there was always the dreaming about fashion for me. Because I came from the kind of mother who made your clothes. And, you know, I got to the point where it's like, "Please, just let me have some Gloria Verdibil jeans. My God, stop sewing for me. I just want what the other kids have." So, there was a lot of looking around me that was part of that inspiration. And there was a lot to see. And I grew up on the south side of Chicago.
11:34 Michelle Obama? There was nothing but style and grace and elegance all around me. Even right in front of me as a little girl, it was the teenage girls right in front of me. How they wore their hair and a number of bangles on their arms and, you know, you sort of covet that, that look when you see somebody older than you showing up, looking what I didn't realize was maybe a little sexy. But there was just something that said, "I like that." And then it was just like Soul Train. I mean, you know, just watching all of that magic happening every Saturday morning. So, I knew what I wanted. I knew what beauty and grace and style was. I just couldn't afford it.
12:16 Michelle Obama? So, I think that made it even more special when I started slowly developing my own agency, even having my own little babysitting money to go to the Evergreen Plaza or Water Tower place where you could see the nice clothes. A lot of window shopping was going on.
12:34 Speaker 01 Do you remember the first, like, look, like, your first, did you, by the way, did you lay your clothes out for school?
12:40 Michelle Obama? Yeah, I did when I was really young. I write about my favorite dress when I was, like, six. It was a Sears and Roebuck special, because that's where you got everything. And it was this plaid bottom, one dress, kind of like the typical Jan Brady dress with the plaid on the bottom and the brown on the top, and you just zipped it up in one zip. It was polyester, so it didn't wrinkle. And I loved that dress. I mean, that dress I would lay out because it was probably one of the few things at that age that I could do on my own. It was very efficient, and I loved that dress for that reason.
13:18 Speaker 01 The efficiency of it?
13:20 Michelle Obama? The efficiency of it, the practicality of it. It didn't wrinkle. I mean, I don't know what my little mind was thinking, but I also liked the agency of doing it for myself. So, but I was also kind of a tomboy, you know? When I was little, little, because my older brother, I was always following him around. So there was also that period where I thought I was going to be Jose Cardenal, the first baseman of the Cubs, and I would wear my fro puffed up like him with a baseball cap on, and I'd be ready to go. So there were all these different iterations of myself. And I think it wasn't until high school that I saw a broader influence than what was in my neighborhood. I saw kids from, because
14:03 Michelle Obama? I went to a magnet school, Whitney Young Go Dolphins, and it attracted kids from all over the city, kids of all races. And it was really the first time that I saw black wealth. You know, I was like, dang, your hair is bouncing and behaving. I was gonna say, I was gonna say, what did it look like? What did it look like? It was just, it was polo eyes on. It was the, I grew up in the age of the preppy look with the, you know, and there was a difference between the Jack Lake sweater and the Ralph Lauren sweater. I started learning that. And there was the K-Swiss shoes that were pristine and white. The Stan Smith with the, and all of this stuff was so expensive. But the kids wearing it just looked cool.
14:48 Michelle Obama? Um, but I couldn't afford that stuff until I, I could, I never was able to afford that stuff. But I would look for the sales and I would try to figure something out. And if I got one sweater, I'd be like, okay, I got the sweater. Now I got to get the polo. I get that in months. Remember, layaway? Oh, layaway. Layaway was a thing we used. I was, I was like, uh. Remember, remember layaway? There's a version of that now. It's called credit.
15:22 Michelle Obama? There's a version of that, which means you owe everybody.
15:26 Michelle Obama? I'm definitely not the one to ask on that.
15:30 Michelle Obama? I was trying to really participate. I was like, yes. Yeah, Tracy doesn't know. Tracy was one of the girls. I'd be like, where'd you get those?
15:39 Michelle Obama? You don't know nothing about my life, girl.
15:43 Michelle Obama? I was literally like. You were trying to, yeah, I remember. That's right, Michelle. I remember that.
15:54 Michelle Obama? Embarrassing, okay. All right. Well, you were you. Yeah, well, you know. And I wasn't, you know, my mother was not Diana Ross. I was definitely not modeling my style after her. In fact, I loved my mother, but my mother was the opposite of Diana Ross. My mother was dying in her own hair. I was begging my mother, go to the hairdresser. Lady, we know you love us. We know you're frugal. Just buy a new dress. That was my mother. So I learned from my mother what I didn't want to do. Um, and I, and I loved her, but when I got a hold of her, when she was living in the White House, I was like, we are going to kill it for you, lady.
16:39 Michelle Obama? So Meredith was styling her.
16:41 Speaker 01 And in all honesty, I spent a lot of time with your mom.
16:44 Michelle Obama? You sure did.
16:45 Speaker 01 Because whenever I would visit them at the White House, I was by myself. And so, which is how I got close with the team.
16:51 Michelle Obama? That's right.
16:52 Speaker 01 Because I was always with mom and the team.
16:54 Michelle Obama? Because you didn't get a plus one.
16:55 Speaker 01 Nope.
16:58 Speaker 01 Okay, okay.
16:59 Michelle Obama? Okay, all right.
16:59 Speaker 01 I remember.
17:02 Speaker 01 I remember when I realized that clothing, my hair, and how I spoke could actually protect me from the microaggressions of racism. I was in my early teens. Do you remember when you realized that clothing could be a tool, or when you began to understand the power of how to present yourself within the context of protection or armor?
17:22 Michelle Obama? I think it was always there. I mean, because the truth is, you know, you're growing up in the city. We, I, the Magnet High School that I went to was on the west side, and to get to it, we had to cut through downtown. So we were commuting with business people, with the folks downtown on North Michigan Avenue, and we would have a half day, we would go to the nice stores and go to the McDonald's and Water Tower Place. I mean, so there was a level of exposure to the high end of Chicago. And to access those places and not be accused of stealing, you realized very early on that you better let them hear you talk, or, you know, come in with the right Lasack case, or else you would be watched.
18:05 Michelle Obama? And, you know, so I, I think I learned then that how you show up, especially when it comes to white folks looking at young black kids, that how you present can sometimes save your life. So, yeah, I think I, I was learning that all throughout my youth.
18:23 Speaker 01 You know, that's an interesting thing, right? So my mom was Diana Ross, but I wasn't protected from that because of her. The color of my skin is the color of my skin.
18:30 Michelle Obama? But you looked just like her, girl.
18:32 Speaker 01 Not, not when I...
18:33 Michelle Obama? It'd be like...
18:34 Speaker 01 "Na, na, na, Michelle. Not with my glasses and my braces, girl."
18:39 Michelle Obama? Yeah, you were a little bit of...
18:41 Speaker 01 No, I was just a skinny little girl who was trying to talk really nice and steal my mom's clothes so I could walk and not, and nobody was looking at me. Oh, my goodness.
18:56 Speaker 02 Hi, I'm Carl Ray and I'm Michelle Obama's longtime makeup artist. I've been on many of these sets, but I'm so excited to be in front of the camera. My first client was my mom. I would always watch her apply her makeup. When I was around 14 years old, I asked her if I could do it for her because I thought I could do a better job. She obliged and soon after she started asking me to do her makeup a lot. I never knew makeup was a career until I was an adult. Now my work has introduced me to so many interesting experiences. I've worked in film, TV, print, fashion and beauty all around the world. I've also had the pleasure to work with many celebrities and dignitaries along the way. And I'd love to work with you.
19:41 Speaker 02 So the next time you're booking on Airbnb, click on the services tab. You'll find professionals like me and my team. We can help make your next special occasion even more memorable. Weddings, galas, birthdays, headshots, or anytime you just want to feel and look your very best. You can find me at Airbnb.com/services.
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24:08 Speaker 01 There is a quote in the foreword by Gwendolyn Brooks that reads, "Conduct your blooming in the noise and whip of the whirlwind." And then Farrah Jasmine said in the foreword that you and the nation blossomed in the whip of the whirlwind. And I think about what it must have been like for you with the whole world watching. I think about you being the first and the narrow, subjective, public expectation that had zero margin for error. And then I think about you as a person, and a human being. How did you stay connected to yourself and your self-worth while balancing lofty expectations on one side and being expected to fail on the other?
24:53 Michelle Obama? Yeah.
24:57 Michelle Obama? I think my motto has always been, throughout my life, because that is a battle as a Black woman in the world, as women in the world, that we always face is surpassing other people's low expectations of us. So I was practiced in it. I was practiced in being doubted and underestimated. And so my approach was focus on the work. Focus on getting the A. Focus on getting to college. Focus on finishing the paper. Focus on doing the job right in front of me well. And let that speak for itself. Because as my mother told me and my brother,
25:40 Michelle Obama? you can't control what other people think and say about you. You have to find that strength from within yourself. And I also benefited from having two parents who loved me and my brother deeply. I write about this in Becoming. I talk about it in The Light. That the seeing that they did for us fortified us. You know, I always talk about the fact that every child is born with light. And I was too. I was born knowing that I was smart and capable, not just in my own sense, but how I showed up in the world. I saw, you know, people who were smart and people who weren't. And I was among the smart people.
26:22 Michelle Obama? But I also saw people expect me to be less. So you either fuel that light that's in a child or you snuff it out. And that is what happens to every child all over the world. And I was fortunate enough to have parents that fueled me. So I think that helped me stay focused because my truth in my head was totally different from anything else anybody could say to me.
26:50 Speaker 01 Were there times when it felt hard to hold that? Well, I mean, your mom was with you.
26:56 Michelle Obama? Yeah.
26:58 Speaker 01 Was it hard to hold that at certain times?
27:01 Michelle Obama? You know, what is always hard for me is hypocrisy and ignorance, you know? I mean, that would just... I mean, it wouldn't hurt me. It would anger me, you know? And when it was so obvious and so blatant that it's like, wow, these people... You know, there is a certain set of people who refuse to see the humanity in people who don't look like them. And it's just like, wow. I wasn't personal. It was like, oh, my goodness, you're so limited. You were so afraid. You were so small. And that wound up... I was the kind of kid who didn't get hurt. I got mad.
27:48 Michelle Obama? And I had to find a way to direct that anger. And for me, when it was turned on me, I was like, which happened, as I said, early on in the first campaign, it was very clear that when I got really effective on the campaign trail and started attracting huge crowds and big rallies, sometimes bigger than the candidates that we were battling, and this happened in the Democratic primary. Let me be clear, these were our people who were going after me, because this started when we were running against our party.
28:24 Michelle Obama? The beginning of turning me into an angry shrew who diminished her husband, who didn't love her country, who was unpatriotic. And it's like, there is absolutely no way that people who are actually seeing me in the world are seeing that. These people are lying. They are making some stuff up because they're trying to win. So I understood that and knew that I had to quickly define myself, so quickly. Because I was like, if I let them define me, I won't even recognize myself. And I didn't even feel like I had the support of the campaign in that, because they were white folks too, primarily.
29:08 Michelle Obama? I don't think they even knew what to expect.
29:11 Speaker 01 Or to understand how to navigate that.
29:13 Michelle Obama? Or to understand how to navigate that. So I knew immediately, and I knew this coming in as First Lady, that I was in charge of my story, my narrative. I had to be smarter than them. I had to outsmart everyone. And that came to everything I did and said, including what I wore. So I just controlled my narrative and did the work.
29:38 Speaker 01 Yeah. I feel like what that applause is and what I wanted to say is thank you. Because your, I don't know if it's courage, but your sense of, your embodied sense of self that continued with grace and dignity, I get chills, to just keep being you.
30:02 Speaker 01 We all were mirrored back in that. It was, I mean, they're standing up.
30:07 Michelle Obama? Yeah, yeah.
30:08 Speaker 01 It was, it was and is so important. And with you in that position, it was just like, ah, all the time. It just felt like, ah. And I feel like that's part of what I saw in looking at the book. It's like, it became so much, that's just who you are, that I almost forgot. And looking back, you're like, page after page after page. And yes, the dresses are beautiful. Yes, the clothes are appropriate and respectful and all of the things, and brought in other designers. But we see you standing there with your heart open, hugging people, talking to people and connecting with people in a way that was just so incredibly important for all of us. So, thank you.
30:53 Michelle Obama? Oh, thank you, thank you. It was an honor. Let me say this, let me just be clear. It was the honor of my life. And it was easy to do it for the bigger cause. And we were, Barack and I were built for it, you know? And we were capable of handling it. Didn't know it, didn't know it. But this is what I want everybody to know. Like, you know when you can do a thing. You know, you know when you can handle some mess. And, and we had prayer and a lot of support. So through it all, you know, I felt people, I felt like we were all doing it together
31:35 Michelle Obama? and never felt alone in this process. So, thank you all for being there for us.
31:45 Speaker 01 You stepped into a role that carried a preconceived idea of femininity and wifedom that was founded on the landmines of racism and misogyny. What the first lady wears is one of the main ways, which you've already said, that a first lady is talked about. It comes with so much historical expectation. How do you feel about the fact that the first lady is an archetype for wifedom and femininity?
32:12 Michelle Obama? Uh, yeah, I don't agree with that.
32:17 Michelle Obama? Don't agree with that. It's, you know, it is a completely throwback on... It's a definition that has no current status in how women actually show up in the world today.
32:34 Speaker 01 Do you think that that impacts the room that we've made for a woman to be president?
32:39 Michelle Obama? Well, as we saw in this past election, sadly, we ain't ready. That's why I'm like, "Don't even look at me about running, because you all are lying. You're not ready for a woman. You are not. So don't waste my time." You know, we got a lot of growing up to do. And there's still, sadly, a lot of men who do not feel like they can be led by a woman, and we saw it.
33:07 Michelle Obama? What was the question?
33:10 Speaker 01 I just said, "Mm-hmm." We don't need to ask it again. You answered it.
33:17 Michelle Obama? So...
33:19 Speaker 01 Femininity, wife,dom...
33:20 Michelle Obama? Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think we still have growing to do in that regard. And, you know, we can see how progress can be made and things can be snatched back when it comes to us owning our power as women. But, yeah, I was... Barack and I, our marriage to me feels more traditional, that we are partners. We are equals. We are... have always been. That's how our relationship was defined at the very beginning, when we first met one another. We were both Harvard Law students. He was my advisee.
34:04 Michelle Obama? I was at the firm before he was. But I also recognize his brilliance and ambition and the things that he can do that I cannot. There are just... There's just an excellent intelligence in him that I just can't keep up with sometimes. But I think that helped me understand that I had to do the work with him to make it work. And he knew that. He knew that... We would be doing this together, or we wouldn't be doing it at all. But with that said, I felt like I worked and supported the Commander in Chief.
34:48 Michelle Obama? Yes, he was my husband, but when our team, whenever we did anything, my motto was, "Let us not block the work. Let us never do anything that's going to get in the way of getting things done." All right? And that came to how I dressed and what I said. This is why it's like, you know, I was very cautious to make sure that we matched high-end designers with low-end designers, because they would have dinged the heck out of me had I shown up in some Chanel and some Louboutins every day. You know, if I was trying to walk in the garden in some high-heeled shoes, they would have come, they would have ate me alive as being disconnected and, you know.
35:33 Michelle Obama? But I was also not that woman. I was a working woman, you know, with a strategic mind and ideas about what I needed to do. And I didn't want the clothes to talk louder than the work that I did. So we were also working to balance that. And I had to have a team of people, and Meredith Coop, who was my stylist, who quickly understood the pitfalls of what we had to deal with. She had a steep learning curve, too. So all of that was a part of being a partner, you know. The first spouse is not elected. I did not try to become him.
36:14 Michelle Obama? I tried to use the power that I had to support him and to elevate the issues that I cared about. And fashion, whether the West Wing understood it or not, as I used to tell them, it's like, all the stuff we do on the East Wing, from the clothes I wear, to Bo and Sunny and Malia and Sasha and Grandma, those were five approval points that he got, extra approval points that he got. Because we provided a balance, right? I mean, you don't want to just see the commander in chief as this stodgy dude in the Oval Office. He needs to be humanized, right? And we helped to humanize him, to show the light part of the...
36:58 Michelle Obama? When we talk about the East Wing, it is the heart of the work, you know? And to denigrate it, to tear it down, to pretend like it doesn't matter, it is...
37:11 Speaker 01 Very representative of...
37:13 Michelle Obama? You know, it is how you think about that role, I think, that plays as much a part in being able to make that kind of decision when you're renovating. We didn't, we just didn't have that kind of relationship. And it starts at the top, and it starts because I was, I'm married to a man who wanted an equal, you know? He wanted somebody who was his partner.
37:39 Speaker 01 You know, as you're talking about that, I, I've never heard it expressed that way, but there's something I talk about also in Hollywood and the industry around cultural currency. And there is, it's hard for all industry and people to understand the importance of it and the balance that it offers. And there's no dollar amount, and there's no real box to check, but it is, it is the heart of it. And so I'm glad you expressed that that way. I think it's incredibly important. You mentioned Meredith. So you wrote this book in collaboration with Meredith Coop. She started as an assistant stylist in 2008 and took over as your primary stylist in 2010.
38:22 Speaker 01 I do kind of want to read a little bit of what she...
38:25 Michelle Obama? Please, yes.
38:26 Speaker 01 So one of the things that Meredith wrote, she said, "I thoroughly educated myself on the details of each event, absorbing information as though I was studying for a test. I kept abreast of current news and politics that would inform tone. What was the event generally, and has it happened before? What is the historical significance? Has the first lady attended in the past? If so, what did she wear? Who else is participating? Who is the audience? What time of day does it take place and where? Is there an outdoor component? What are Michelle's movements exactly? Is she speaking? Is there a podium?" On and on and on. Events abroad would amplify this research exponentially, requiring additional collaboration with state departments
39:10 Speaker 01 to navigate delicate cultural relations. Once I understood, once she understood the landscape of the upcoming events, then she would begin to strategize and envision a fashion narrative. People just thought you were looking for dresses.
39:27 Michelle Obama? That's really, I mean, this is why I wrote the book, y'all.
39:30 Speaker 01 Yeah, and it's like, you know,
39:32 Michelle Obama? you think I'm just putting on some?
39:34 Speaker 01 Some dress, oh, that's a nice dress. Look at that, purple or blue? Should we go with pants or a skirt? You know, like, but I think the reason I found that so wonderful and also staggering, number one, is in the culture that we're in now, so often, we don't understand the magnitude of process, the depth of process, what it actually takes to make something look effortless, to make something look exceptional. And the, what was so beautiful to me is the care to understand all of the context, so that not only could you go and show up and do what you do, but so that the narrative is on the right thing.
40:18 Speaker 01 And it takes all of that care. It's not something that happens, you're like, I don't know. And then as Meredith continued in the position with you and in that role, learning how to communicate with designers and say, that's not going to work. There was one little tidbit that really was so beautiful. She was like, Michelle was wearing a wrap dress, but you can't sit in a wrap dress. But it was a wrap dress, but she had the thing sewed up.
40:43 Michelle Obama? She had Diane von Furstenberg redo the wrap dress for me, so that there was a panel. Um, because the wrap dresses were perfect. They were elegant, they were easy to wear. But you're, ladies, you know the wrap dress. You just sit down and it's just, woo, looky here. You know, but to have, be that young and have the confidence to go to a designer and go, "This is not gonna work. You're gonna have to cut that in half. That needs to become, that sleeve is coming off." I'm sure she made, if you all are here, I know she made some of you mad, right? Because she, you know, she was like, "I know what is going to work for
41:23 Michelle Obama? Michelle." And it is, it is, this is the interesting thing. The first lady is famous, but as I said, I am not a starlet. I'm not a celebrity in this, in the traditional sense. I have to show up ready, but I still have to be connective. And the work was more important than that. And the fact that I had somebody as smart as Meredith, it allowed me, any authenticity that you see, meant that, once I put something on, I was like, "I can't even think about it." Just like, back there in this dress, I was like, "You know what? I don't know. I hope things lay well, but my team knows, don't touch me. Because I am not here for the hair to be right in the right place. I want to be here for the person
42:08 Michelle Obama? that I'm talking to. I want to be present in the moment. And if I can't trust that you guys have done that work, I will be self-conscious." And I was never self-conscious. I was always like, "You know what? Meredith is gonna make sure it's right, that my, you know, nothing is hanging out. And I can do the work." You know? And it was also because I was a different kind of first lady. I was completely active. I mean, you didn't know, and it got Meredith. She'd be like, "You know, she, oh, she's gonna get on the floor with those kids in that dress." And I'm like, "Yes, I am." So, and I'm always game. It's like, okay, I have caught footballs. I mean, I have run relay races. I have played with
42:49 Michelle Obama? puppies on the south lawn. I mean, the, we have broken the jumping jack world record. I've jumped double dutch. I have, "Lord, if it was a thing to do, we were moving, let's move." And you couldn't show sweat while you were doing it. And that gets to hair, because that meant, "Ooh," you know, Johnny, Yene, those people be like, "Lord, she's gonna sweat that out." And I'd say, "Yes, I am. And we better have your flat iron ready to redo everything." So... Good segue.
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47:42 Speaker 01 Let's talk about the hair. Okay. You wrote, "In a way, being first lady was just another professional experience where I had to conform to a white environment of appropriateness." And you said that you kept your hair straight throughout the White House years so it would not be a talking point. Your journey is much like that of many of us Black women who have felt that we have had to conform to beauty standards that we didn't see ourselves in. How did you keep your hair healthy with all that heat? What day was wash day? Did you sleep in rollers or a bonnet? And how'd you keep your edges?
48:22 Michelle Obama? All answered in the book.
48:30 Speaker 01 All answered in the book.
48:32 Michelle Obama? Growing up in Chicago, at the time that I did extensions, wigs, all of that, that wasn't a thing. You went to your hairdresser every week, and mine was Ronnie Flowers at Van Cleef. I had a relaxer like everybody else did because I was a professional. So I wasn't in the world of hair and what celebrities were doing. So for the first couple of years, that was me wearing my hair, getting it done two, three times a day. And Johnny Wright, who was my stylist throughout the White House years, with Yonay as his assistant, you know, they knew, "Girl, you're not gonna have your hair if we keep doing this." And I was like, "Well, what am I supposed to do?"
49:13 Michelle Obama? And that's when he finally convinced me to start using extensions and wigs and things like that. But I had to tell them, "Look, I cannot show up with my hair my length and then down my back the next day." You know, I said, "We can't live in that world, so just settle down, partner." You know? Because they wanted to, and I was like, uh-uh, uh-uh. I'm about to go into a school with children. I can't have all this. You know, so the deal was, okay, we'll do this, but it has to be exactly my hair. So that was the plan, and that saved my hair because this, you want to talk about, I wanted
49:57 Michelle Obama? to come out of the White House with my sanity, my children intact, and my edges together. That was really the directive. So hair health was a big part of that. And then I realized, well, that's what everybody's doing in Hollywood and, you know, for women and black women. And things in, you can talk about this, because the hair journey for women in TV has changed significantly, because there weren't people who knew how to do textured hair at all.
50:28 Speaker 01 No, we all, I mean, we're not talking about me. I'm like, why are you looking at me?
50:34 Michelle Obama? But it's also, I knew that that is-
50:36 Speaker 01 But yes, it is a journey for all black women, whatever industry you're in.
50:39 Michelle Obama? Yes.
50:40 Speaker 01 And in Hollywood, it is a thing. And now they're finally having hairstylists that are trained to be able. But what that was, is that you had to learn how to do your own hair.
50:50 Michelle Obama? Exactly.
50:50 Speaker 01 And that's part of where Pattern was born from, because the-
50:55 Speaker 01 Pattern Beauty.
50:57 Michelle Obama? Get it.
50:58 Speaker 01 Get it. For curly, curly and tight texture.
51:01 Michelle Obama? The drugstore near you.
51:03 Speaker 01 Yes, we exceed the needs of the curly, curly and tight texture community.
51:06 Michelle Obama? All right, we're gonna charge you for sponsorship.
51:10 Speaker 01 Question number 11.
51:13 Speaker 01 So, but yeah, I think, I can't imagine, I'm grateful that you were able to leave with your sanity, your family, and your edges intact.
51:23 Michelle Obama? That's right.
51:24 Speaker 01 And that you were able to find a solution that would allow you to continue doing what you do without that being a thing that was going to damage part of you.
51:33 Michelle Obama? That's right.
51:34 Speaker 01 You know?
51:34 Michelle Obama? That's right. And I also grew my relaxer out, people. I mean, that was, we, you, that became, that was the thing, is like, I don't even really need a relaxer. What are we doing? My girls, we had that little relaxer for a minute. I stopped relaxing their hair. So we learned about hair care. We learned about hair health, because I had two technicians that cared. And the truth is, the bangs, you know why I wore bangs? I read about it. To give my edges a break, y'all. That was the one thing. It was like to stop pulling my hair back. We put the bangs in. I mean, it was a practical. And I had no idea it would be all that, you know?
52:15 Speaker 01 Well, bangs have a lot of connotation.
52:18 Michelle Obama? What do what?
52:19 Speaker 01 Bangs are you're going through a change.
52:21 Michelle Obama? Is that what it is?
52:22 Speaker 01 You've had a breakup. When you, oh, she cut bangs.
52:25 Michelle Obama? Is that really? I missed that. I don't know.
52:28 Speaker 01 I don't know.
52:28 Michelle Obama? Okay.
52:29 Speaker 01 I mean, but that's, people say, you know.
52:30 Michelle Obama? So is that what people thought? That I was going through a breakup?
52:33 Speaker 01 I just thought you looked great. I don't think anyone thought that. I think you looked great. That's what it was. They were like, oh, she looked great.
52:41 Speaker 01 I thought this was so interesting because I didn't realize, again, you say it's 10 years since you guys have been out, which is like, what? The Crown Act was not introduced until after you left the White House. Fascinating. The natural hair movement began to take off during your White House years, but you stayed with straight hair. It was two months after you left the White House that the world saw your natural hair and some pictures of you on vacation. Can you talk about the freedom that you've experienced post-White House? Both with your hair and in your style?
53:12 Michelle Obama? I love having a team, but I have to learn how to live without a team. Because that's the other thing, that we become captive to our teams, to our hairstylists. Like, don't act like you don't know what I'm talking about. You know, there are people that won't pay the rent because they are gonna go get their hair done, right? And I couldn't, I couldn't solely rely on having these young people fly around everywhere with me coming on vacation. It's like, we didn't have it like that. So I always had to be able, on vacation, when they weren't gonna be around, to be able to do my own hair. So that was, it was, those decisions were decisions of control for me.
53:55 Michelle Obama? And I didn't, you know, I didn't grow up with a team, even though I had a team. I am a person that feels like you should do the stuff on your own, right? So I never wanted to feel captive. So I always, I learned how to do my own makeup. I learned how to put a lash on. I learned how to do my own hair in the same way that you've said, because you can't have people with you all the time. And I knew that there was gonna be life post-White House, even though my team still works with me. Part of that was control. And the decision to... Get my hair braided was primarily a continuation of that freedom. You know, it's like a lot of people want to know, well, what do braids mean? What does she mean? Look, y'all.
54:38 Michelle Obama? What does she mean? You know, I mean, that's how white folks are. It's like, what does that mean? What are you saying? We're saying nothing, except I just don't want to have to do my hair every day. And I want to, I want to go swimming. I don't want to have to worry about it. Let me explain something to white people. Our hair comes out of our head naturally in a curly pattern. So when we're straightening it to follow your beauty standards, we are trapped by the straightness. That's why so many of us can't swim. And we run away from the water.
55:17 Michelle Obama? People won't go to the gym because we're trying to keep our hair straight for y'all. It is exhausting and it's so expensive and it takes up so much time. Braids are for y'all so we can work harder and focus on the work. So why do we need an act, an act of law to tell white folks to get out of our hair? Don't, don't tell me how to wear my hair. Don't wonder about it. Don't touch it. Just don't. It just is.
55:57 Michelle Obama? So braids for me was part of the freedom of like, I just, I want to, I want to work out and play tennis and I don't want to have to have a team. And braids are beautiful and they're versatile and they protect your hair. They're a protective style and I love them. I love wearing my hair in braids. So I knew I was always going to go back to braids, which I have done. And I knew it was important, even though I couldn't, I didn't feel like I had the leeway to wear braids as first lady because, look, anything different that we did?
56:40 Michelle Obama? A fist bump, my arms out, y'all, come on. You could pretend like I could wear braids, but this is where you just have sense. It's like, I didn't have time to explain this to the world. It was just like, I'm trying to get people healthy and protect military families. I just didn't have the time to explain these braids. So I just didn't do it. It's like, that's just one fight I'm not gonna take on. I'm doing a lot. So, it was a decision, but I knew that I wanted to make that statement at some point. And, wearing my hair in braids when we unveiled our official White House portrait, to me was the chance, because that was really the first and only time we went back to the White House since we've left,
57:25 Michelle Obama? to unveil those portraits.
57:30 Speaker 01 That was plenty.
57:34 Michelle Obama? And so, as the first black first lady, I thought it was important to be part of this growing movement to say, for anybody who's wondering whether braids or locks or anything else we do, our natural hair, our short hair is appropriate, stop asking. If we're wearing it and we're doing the job in it, it is appropriate. Trust me. Just worry about the product.
58:01 Michelle Obama? So, yes, I wanted to make that statement in the White House.
58:08 Speaker 01 Thank you for that.
58:09 Michelle Obama? Yeah.
58:22 Speaker 01 Okay. The DNC suit.
58:25 Michelle Obama? Ah, yeah. The Muncie suit.
58:29 Speaker 01 Well, I...
58:32 Speaker 01 And that was a braided look that was exceptional. I remember, like, every angle of you was amazing.
58:38 Michelle Obama? Yeah, yeah.
58:40 Speaker 01 So, I personally, when you walked out... You know what? Wait, before I do this, because this is shoes. Are you always in a flat? Is it comfort? Is it your preference? Not a flat, but a lower shoe?
58:55 Michelle Obama? It depends on what I'm doing. That's a good question because, you know, when I'm giving a speech, I want to be grounded.
59:04 Speaker 01 Uh huh.
59:05 Michelle Obama? Right? So I rarely wear a big heel because there's just something about, I like, if I'm trying to deliver, I don't want to be teetering.
59:13 Speaker 01 Yeah.
59:14 Michelle Obama? I don't want to be unstable. Um, so I like a lower heel so I don't have to focus on the heel. You know, even just walking out on stage, you know what I'm thinking when I'm walking out on stage?
59:25 Speaker 01 Yes, please tell us.
59:26 Michelle Obama? Don't fall, don't trip, don't trip. Just don't trip, don't fall. Watch your step, take it slowly. Before anything, walking down. That's why I've never fallen down the stairs of Air Force One. Because I'm thinking, don't fall, don't trip, girl. Do not become a meme. That's what I'm thinking right there.
59:44 Speaker 01 Don't fall.
59:45 Michelle Obama? Don't fall. So, you know, the shoe that I wear. And so I often will do, you, you, especially for a live DNC speech, you get one chance, it's live, it's got to be right. So I have a ritual, what I do with big speeches like that. I practice in the morning because I just want to get the speech. I want to know the speech by heart because you never know when a teleprompter is going to go down or something's not going to work. It's live TV. I do it in flat shoes behind, because they usually have a teleprompter behind for all the speech givers to practice. I do it once and then I put on the shoe that I'm going to wear and I do the speech again. So that by the time I come out, it's locked in
1:00:30 Michelle Obama? and then I can deliver it, right?
1:00:33 Speaker 01 Locked in from your feet through you.
1:00:35 Michelle Obama? All the way up. And that's how the decision about clothes works, right? So that suit was, Meredith, you know, we had a fitting for this event. She brought a bunch of suits. We put that on and it was clear. I was like, dang, this is a bad suit. You know, that's usually how I pick stuff. It's like, this is bad. You know, we weren't thinking about symbolism or Wakanda or nothing. I don't know what all that was about. It was just like, this is a clever suit. You know, it was, it was modern and different and a little edgy, which is sort of what the path I was on anyway. And I, I, I, this is when I, I told, and Jerry, my braider, I wanted that long power braid
1:01:19 Michelle Obama? because I didn't want a lot of hair. So it was things like that that I thought about, but once we picked the suit, it's about the work. You know, it's like this suit, I know I feel good in, I feel clean in, and now I can deliver, do what I'm here for, which is to deliver a message. Now, y'all didn't listen.
1:01:38 Michelle Obama? But we won't go there. Okay, some of y'all did. Some of y'all listened.
1:01:44 Speaker 01 We hear everything you say.
1:01:46 Michelle Obama? We, some of y'all did.
1:01:48 Speaker 01 You said, what, what's the expression that you use when you like the look? You said, oh, this bad? You know what mine is?
1:01:54 Michelle Obama? What's that?
1:01:55 Speaker 01 Oh, my God, I like this girl.
1:01:56 Michelle Obama? Yeah, oh, yes.
1:01:58 Speaker 01 It's so weird. I say it all the time. I'm like, oh, I like this girl.
1:02:00 Michelle Obama? Yeah, she's good.
1:02:02 Speaker 01 Where's she going? Okay.
1:02:03 Michelle Obama? I want to be where she is.
1:02:04 Speaker 01 Versace dress.
1:02:05 Michelle Obama? Well, this.
1:02:06 Speaker 01 This?
1:02:06 Michelle Obama? Oh, yeah.
1:02:07 Speaker 01 Versace dress, here it comes. Oh!
1:02:13 Michelle Obama? Now, that's...
1:02:14 Speaker 01 I mean, I, the color, the whole thing, I just, I was like, oh, my God! Oh, my God!
1:02:21 Michelle Obama? That was, me too.
1:02:23 Speaker 01 Oh, my God, it was just so good!
1:02:24 Michelle Obama? It was so good, yeah.
1:02:26 Speaker 01 Was it cold? Because chain mail can be cold.
1:02:28 Michelle Obama? It wasn't that bad. Um, it, it was heavy, um, which is a trip when you have a three hours and a long photo line and all that, but luckily I was healthy and in shape. But that was a beautiful dress. This was a last state dinner, Italy. So Versace in Italy, that's how Meredith was thinking. Um, and she told me this story, that this, uh, dress was shown in a different chain metal, and she, this is her, she was like, huh, rose gold would be beautiful. So she went to Versace and said, can you do this in a rose gold? Now, the process with a state dinner dress is that we do fittings like a month in advance, and we always have a few options, right?
1:03:12 Michelle Obama? Because ladies, zippers break, stuff doesn't work, you fit it once, it comes back, and these dresses have to fit perfectly, and we never know until the night of whether something is going to happen, so we always have a backup. So I usually have three dresses ready. And then I don't decide until that night what I'm gonna do. And it's a surprise to my husband, too. So that becomes, that became one of our rituals that I talk about in the book. That that was kinda like our only really, really cool date night that we could have. You know, and so we had a ritual where he wouldn't know what was going on. And the house was abuzz because the music is playing and the girls are in with us getting ready.
1:03:55 Michelle Obama? And we got champagne and the hors d'oeuvres from downstairs. And mom is waiting and they don't know what I'm gonna wear. And I walk out into the salon, into the grass house where Barack is waiting. It's like prom. And then everybody follows, the butlers come out and all of trifecta, they come out and they just wait to watch him to see what he's gonna say, especially Meredith. He was like, "He better like this." She's usually looking at him like, "Don't ask." Right? Because he's also a man. He was like, "Uh, why is there all this?"
1:04:29 Michelle Obama? "What is, what's this?"
1:04:33 Michelle Obama? And I'm usually like, "It's fashion, okay? You don't understand." So we did that with this dress. And so it was just beautiful. And when I put it on, it felt good, it fit like a glove. And we were being edgier. The second term, it was the last date dinner. So this dress was always, it's also like a "bye."
1:04:58 Michelle Obama? It's like, this was like, "I don't even care what you think." Because guess what? We don't need no more votes. You can like it, you can not. I'm gonna be sexy as I don't know what. I don't care no more. That was this dress, too. That was the statement. Yeah.
1:05:21 Speaker 01 Whose style do you admire?
1:05:25 Michelle Obama? Whose style? Oh, so many. I admire your style. I do, I mean, I really do. Your mother's style. I love the, I love the divas, you know? I did one of the other Look episodes, podcasts that you'll hear. We do this beautiful conversation on aging in the public eye with me, Jen Alliance, Jane Fonda, and Beth Ann Hardison. It is a conversation, y'all. And Jane Fonda, oh, she's like 87? She showed up in this white suit, just crisp, clean, together.
1:06:09 Michelle Obama? I was like, that's what 87 is, you know? So I like any, I really like a clean, like the clean, solid, timeless looks. And anyone who sports those looks, I admire their style.
1:06:25 Speaker 01 We've talked a lot about wearing clothes to send the world a message. What do you wear to send yourself a message?
1:06:34 Michelle Obama? Anything that makes me feel good. I mean, I do not pick something that doesn't make me feel good. I never wear something to follow a trend. I wear things that make me feel beautiful. And that is probably the first criterion.
1:06:56 Michelle Obama? And then I wear things that allow me to forget about what I'm wearing and do the work. So I do want, like, I forgot about this dress and this cape, this, whatever this is doing. You know, it was fun to walk out on, but I'm done. I'm not thinking about... How it's folding and I'm sure Meredith is losing her mind because she was like, "The angle is wrong. Move your foot." And I tend not to worry about that once I'm in a moment. And to these days, you've, the book takes my arc from childhood till today. And so you see the variations. And when I did the Becoming Tour, it was about pants.
1:07:39 Michelle Obama? I didn't want to be in a dress. I had done enough little lady dresses during the eight years. And so they were glamorous suits. And then The Light was the book that I wrote after COVID. And I wanted that to be more personal, a smaller venue. I wanted to be more relaxed. And we went more urban. That's when I had my hair in braids. All of those iterations are me, you know? A cool jeans outfit, a funky barrel jean cut, a T-shirt. You know, just anything that fits well. And that's one of my styling advices. One of the things I learned is that it's worth getting your stuff tailored.
1:08:19 Michelle Obama? And that was like, if, if, if you're looking for any kind of hack, that's the biggest one. Is rarely does anybody, you know, fit the dress size. We are all too diverse in our sizes. And to make even affordable clothes look clean and sleek, getting them fitted to you, getting a T-shirt tucked, a shirt pulled in. If you go to your local dry cleaners. And we did that with Target dresses and J. Crew. Everything was tailored so that it fit me the way it should. It would be the right length. It would be if we needed to cut a sleeve off or add fabric. The links work and all of that stuff matters.
1:09:02 Michelle Obama? So all of that makes all these different styles accessible to me because they're all parts of who I am. That makes sense. You know, so I don't think there's one way. I think I'm still exploring, discovering who I am, playing. The, the beauty of playing in fashion is still part of it. You know, and I, I still love to play. So it, I'm, and I'm still evolving at 61 years old, y'all. Still figuring it out.
1:09:35 Speaker 01 I've said it throughout this conversation, but I will say it again. Thank you. Thank you for how you have shared yourself with us through the eight years, through your books, through this new book, The Look, go get it, Christmas holidays coming up. Thank you for being you and thank you for this beautiful conversation.
1:09:58 Michelle Obama? Oh, thank you, Tracy. Thank you for your friendship. You all, New York, you all, thank you so much for coming out tonight and being a part of this live conversation. I love you all.
1:10:09 Speaker 01 Thank you, everybody.
1:10:10 Michelle Obama? Thank you, guys. Good night, be safe.
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