Pod Insights Talk Easy with Sam Fragoso At the Movies with Director Edgar Wright (‘The Running Man’) About this episode Director Edgar Wright hit the ground running. For most filmmakers it takes many years (and many films) to find their voice, but Wright’s seemed to be fully formed upon arrival, with 2004’s Shaun of the Dead.
The beloved British filmmaker joins us this week to discuss his new adaptation of Stephen King’s The Running Man (5:38), the inspiration he took from director Sam Raimi’s career path (17:30), and Wright’s moviegoing childhood in Somerset, England (20:24). Then, we dive into Wright’s own movies: the start of his collaboration with Simon Pegg (25:42), their breakout with Shaun of the Dead (28:17), and the local lore that informed Hot Fuzz (39:59).
On the back-half, Edgar recounts the unlikely origin story of Scott Pilgrim vs. the World—which began in Quentin Tarantino’s guest house (46:46)—his ups and downs inside the studio system (43:00), including his brief foray into the Marvel Cinematic Universe with Ant-Man (42:53), and how art ultimately imitated life in The World’s End (58:20). To close, we talk about how he sees the future of filmmaking and artificial intelligence (1:06:11) and why, after all these years, Edgar still believes in the magic of going to the cinema (1:13:55).
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Transcript 15,066 words · 13 speakers
Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:21 Sam Fragoso? This is Talk Easy. I'm Stan Fragoso. Welcome to the show.
0:38 Sam Fragoso? Today, writer-director Edgar Wright. Where some filmmakers take a minute to find their voice, Wright hit the ground running. There was always something fully formed about his cinematic vision. Take Shaun of the Dead, for example, from 2004. It's a film that many consider his true directorial debut after a rarely seen and slightly disavowed film called A Fistful of Fingers. Even then, the hallmarks of a Wright film were on full display: the seamless blend of action and comedy, the breakneck pacing, the insert shots played for laughs, the music. My god, the music. Every edit, sound cue, and song further enveloping the viewer in the north London of Shaun of the Dead. And the same would
1:21 Sam Fragoso? be true for the rest of the films that followed: from Hot Fuzz and The World's End, to Scott Pilgrim vs. the World, and Baby Driver. His latest project, though, is an adaptation of Stephen King's 1982 novel, The Running Man. You may remember the first time the story was adapted back in 1987, which starred Arnold Schwarzenegger as the titular freedom fighter trapped inside a deadly reality show. Wright's new version reimagines that world today: a near future where contestants, known as runners, are hunted by assassins for the entertainment of a nation glued to its screens. Of course, a fantasy film. At the center of it is Ben Richards, played by Glenn Powell, a working-class father who enters the game
2:04 Sam Fragoso? to save his sick daughter and quickly becomes an unexpected fan favorite. Here's a clip from the trailer.
2:13 Sam Fragoso? People on these games never come back.
2:16 Speaker 01 I'm not trying to get myself killed. So kiss my ass twice. Right there is why you can win this game. Rules are simple. Survive 30 days with the entire nation hunting you down.
2:31 Speaker 01 And get your family out of suicide for good.
2:36 Speaker 02 Are you gonna come back here and burn this building down? I promise, that's the spirit. This is America, goddammit! And we don't put up with no bullshit!
2:52 Speaker 02 Hunt!
2:54 Speaker 02 Him!
2:59 Sam Fragoso? That was from the new film, The Running Man, which opens nationwide in theaters Friday, November 14th. True to the action films it's inspired by, Wright's latest is designed to be seen in a theater, preferably with a Coke, a bucket of popcorn, maybe a Raisinet. That's my personal preference. Is there anything more predictable than my candy of choice being a Raisinet? Sometimes, you know, being me, it's embarrassing. What else do you need to know? We actually do talk about the future of movie going toward the end of this conversation. But at the beginning, I wanted to talk about why Edgar wanted to adapt Stephen King's story for 2025, and why he wanted to make a big budget action
3:43 Sam Fragoso? film in a moment where it's harder and harder to get people into the theaters. But to start, I wanted to get into why Edgar wanted to make this film in 2025. I also wanted to talk to him about making early work in and about where he came from in Somerset, England, his ups and downs inside the studio system, including his brief foray into the Marvel Cinematic Universe with Ant-Man, how he sees the future of filmmaking, which of course includes his thoughts on artificial intelligence, and a whole lot more. As always, you can reach out to us at [email protected] . Our YouTube is slowly but surely coming together.
4:25 Sam Fragoso? Just search Talk Easy on YouTube and it should pop right up. Our episode with Salman Rushdie is now available on there in full, and there'll be many more to follow.
4:36 Sam Fragoso? With that, here is my conversation with writer-director Edgar Wright.
5:04 Sam Fragoso? Edgar Wright.
5:05 Speaker 04 Hello.
5:05 Sam Fragoso? Welcome to the show.
5:06 Speaker 04 Thank you for having me. Thank you for having me in this cavernous room.
5:10 Sam Fragoso? It is cavernous.
5:12 Speaker 04 You do feel one of us is like a Bond villain right now.
5:16 Sam Fragoso? It's definitely you.
5:17 Speaker 04 I don't have the cat, though.
5:18 Sam Fragoso? Yeah, but you have the accent.
5:21 Speaker 04 Well, Bond is usually British. Usually the baddies are usually European.
5:24 Sam Fragoso? Yeah, but even you saying "baddies."
5:26 Speaker 04 Baddies.
5:27 Sam Fragoso? Makes me think you're more villain than I am.
5:31 Sam Fragoso? So, back at university, while your classmates were having fun at the beach, you spent your summers, quote, "working and living like Gollum in the edit suite, finishing my short films, subsisting entirely on vending machine coffee and Snickers bars." Now, over this past summer and into the fall, it's my understanding that you've been sprinting to finish The Running Man.
5:55 Speaker 04 Very similar Gollum town. I should point out, not university, art college.
5:59 Sam Fragoso? Right.
5:59 Speaker 04 But what's interesting about that, though, is that the art college that I went to in Bournemouth was next door to a university. And I have heard people say, "Oh, I heard you went to Bournemouth University to do film." And I said, "No, I was at the art college next door doing audiovisual design." And I said, "But I did use the library at the university because it was bigger."
6:21 Sam Fragoso? Finishing this new movie, is your post-production presentation the same? Are you huddled over a larger editing suite on the Paramount lot, eating Snickers bars? What is your state of mind in being, finishing a movie like this?
6:35 Speaker 04 Trying for my health to eat less Snickers.
6:38 Sam Fragoso? Right.
6:39 Speaker 04 But definitely not seeing a lot of sunlight. We edited in London, actually. So, the good thing about that was I was editing at a facility that was only 10 minutes' walk from my house. There was a thing where myself and my editor, Paul Matchless, somebody said, "Let me know if you guys want to get lunch someday." And I said, "Lunch?" Yeah, I remember that. I think actually that we did right at the end like have lunch and it was the first time I'd had an actual lunch, like not like a working lunch.
7:07 Sam Fragoso? Not, not, not eating lunch in front of the.
7:10 Speaker 04 In front of the avid, exactly, yes.
7:12 Sam Fragoso? And obviously you've probably substituted Snickers for salads.
7:15 Speaker 04 That's what I tell myself.
7:17 Sam Fragoso? And that's what we're telling our listeners here today. So how do you feel now that the movie's done? Like, we're sitting here talking about it. The film's about to come out. The distance between finishing and releasing has never been this small, right?
7:30 Speaker 04 That's true. I think the only other one that was kind of quite close to release was maybe Hot Fuzz, but even then I had like a little break between finishing the film and doing the press. I did find myself this week doing kind of like junket interviews, looking at the poster of my own film and sort of started to kind of dissociate in terms of, yes, this is a film that exists. I finished it. But only like a couple of weeks ago. So it's like kind of crazy. Let me be absolutely firm in saying that it is finished and the paint is dry, but it is wild to me that something as complicated as it is, is like now a finished film that's out in cinemas very shortly.
8:10 Sam Fragoso? During the press cycle of your last movie, Last Night in Soho, you were asked about remakes and you said, there are a lot of rehashes and reboots and I watch a lot of them, but there's a point where I kind of think, am I just going to repeat my childhood for the rest of my life? I don't need to see 10 versions of this. So tell me what happens to the 2021 Edgar Wright who said that? And the one who spent the last year making a remake of The Running Man?
8:37 Speaker 04 Well, I think, so not to sound like a total hypocrite, like I will say that this movie.
8:44 Sam Fragoso? I know this feels like an interrogation room.
8:47 Speaker 04 No, no, no, no.
8:48 Sam Fragoso? But it's not.
8:49 Speaker 04 Let me be clear that I'll make some distinctions. So I would say.
8:52 Sam Fragoso? By the way, you've already said, let me be firm.
8:55 Speaker 04 Let me be clear, maybe I am a Bond villain. Let me be clear, Mr. Bond. Yeah, what I would say about this film is it is, I wouldn't consider it a remake, as in it's not a remake of the nineteen eighty seven adaptation. It is like a new adaptation of the same source material. I had read the Richard Bachman book, AKA Stephen King, when I was a teenager. And I'd read that book before I saw the nineteen eighty seven film. So I was very aware even then that that film was an extremely loose adaptation of the book. And so it always stayed with me that I like this book and they didn't really adapt a lot of the story. So in a way, this is like a sort of a new adaptation of the existing source material.
9:38 Speaker 04 And I do like remakes when they do something wildly different. Like David Cronenberg's The Fly is like an amazing example because it's nothing like the fifties one. And just completely does its own thing, but it is technically a remake. I think what I was referring to more there in twenty twenty one was what I would say like is like movie karaoke. Where you feel like you're just watching another version of the same film.
10:03 Sam Fragoso? You mean what all of your fans wanted you to do after the world's end?
10:08 Speaker 04 What do you mean?
10:09 Sam Fragoso? They all wanted just more hot fuzz, Sean and the Dead. They would have been happy if you just kept reliving your childhood.
10:16 Speaker 04 The thing is, you know, is that, what is it? You've got to give the audience what they need, not what they want. And when you give them what they want, they're rarely happy. And sometimes you see that happen with films where it's just total fan service. And then the fans still aren't happy and it's like, what are we even doing?
10:31 Sam Fragoso? Right, they also don't know what they want.
10:33 Speaker 04 That's true.
10:34 Sam Fragoso? So tell me why.
10:37 Sam Fragoso? You're laughing before I even ask a question.
10:39 Speaker 04 No, I feel like, I feel like, I like, no, no, it's good. No, no, I like it.
10:46 Speaker 04 I was just trying to qualify my, my statement in 2021. You know what I was trying to think about?
10:51 Sam Fragoso? Yeah.
10:51 Speaker 04 What film had I just seen that had pissed me off?
10:54 Sam Fragoso? Yeah. And make sure you get that on record here, too. That'll be great. That'll come out of this interview. Now, tell me why, once you do land on making the movie and you are reminded of the book that you first read when you were 14, why this film for this moment?
11:09 Speaker 04 Well, what's interesting about The Running Man is that Stephen King wrote it in 1972. It wasn't published until 1982, when he published under his pseudonym. It is set in the year 2025. So back in 1972, he plucked that number out of the air as a future dystopia. But now we're at the year 2025. I mean, I don't know if you've ever seen this, but the 1982 book, the first edition of The Running Man, it says, "Welcome to the year 2025, where the best men don't run for president, they run for their lives. The running man, Richard Bachman." So the movie is about, Ben Richards is an out of work dad who's trying to provide for his family.
11:53 Speaker 04 His daughter is sick and out of desperation, he goes to the network building, the big corporation that owns everything and it seems like the only, like the state's kind of TV channel, who have a number of cruel game shows and he goes there intending to get some fast cash. He doesn't want to go on The Running Man, which is the deadliest of them. He would rather risk injury than death on one of the other shows. But unfortunately, because it's a movie, he does end up on The Running Man. He's the prime candidate.
12:22 Sam Fragoso? And if you survive the show The Running Man, it's the most lucrative.
12:26 Speaker 04 Yes, although nobody has won the show yet. Six seasons in. I always think that about like with old game shows where like Who Wants to be a Millionaire, where how long they could go before somebody wins the million and whether they had to change the parameters of the game so somebody would win a million. Because if you had Who Wants to be a Millionaire, if it had been on for 25 years and nobody had won the top prize, people would get bored.
12:51 Sam Fragoso? If the only millionaires were the producers who made Who Wants to be a Millionaire? So this show, it plucks three contestants and they have to survive in the world for 30 days while being hunted by a coterie of very talented killers, I guess I'd call them.
13:05 Speaker 04 Hunters, a team of crack hunters.
13:07 Sam Fragoso? So like the prescience of Stephen King's book, what about that excited you in the year 2025?
13:14 Speaker 04 The thing is, the fact that the film is coming out in the real 2025, the year in which the book is set, is sort of a coincidence. It's something that I'd been thinking about wanting to do this movie for a long time. And I'd even like looked into the rights 15 years ago and it was, they were complicated and not available. And four years ago, Simon Kinberg, one of the producers emailed me and said, is it true? You have some interest in The Running Man? And it also, it stayed with me and a lot of the things that are in the movie that we made are things that I wanted to bring to the screen.
13:48 Sam Fragoso? What about the book stayed with you so much?
13:52 Speaker 04 Well, I think the thing about the book that I really liked and also the thing that probably made it the hardest to make is that unlike the 1987 film, which the action of which is quite contained in this sort of subterranean arena.
14:05 Sam Fragoso? Arnold Schwarzenegger.
14:06 Speaker 04 The Arnold Schwarzenegger version. In the, the book and in our film, when Ben Richards leaves the network building, he can essentially go anywhere. It's like hide and seek on a national level, maybe even global level. You could kind of go anywhere you want and there is no like game. The strategy is entirely up to you. How, how are you going to survive 30 days on the run? Are you even going to run or are you just going to hide out? It's like that classic, did you play hide and seek as a kid?
14:33 Sam Fragoso? A hundred percent.
14:34 Speaker 04 And would you do that thing sometimes where you hid right by where the jumping off point was?
14:39 Sam Fragoso? Absolutely.
14:39 Speaker 04 And then you kind of think, I'm so clever and they'll never look here.
14:42 Sam Fragoso? Yeah, they'll never look at the spot where, right where they opened their eyes.
14:46 Speaker 04 Yes, exactly. I used to do that all the time.
14:49 Sam Fragoso? Sometimes it worked.
14:50 Speaker 04 Sometimes it would work.
14:51 Sam Fragoso? Yeah, if the kid was really dumb.
14:54 Speaker 04 We're great. Anyway, so so basically, the idea that he could just go anywhere was the thing that was really expansive about the book. It took place in several different cities, took place in rural areas. That also made it difficult to film as well, but that was one of the aspects of it. The other thing that really stuck with me was the fact that the book is very much from Ben Richard's point of view and never cuts away from him. He's angry. He's a very angry man, but also just the fact it was very intense to have this very subjective narrative where you were with him. You experienced the game show through him and you don't have any information that he doesn't have. Right.
15:32 Speaker 04 And even like what he sees on the TV through the game show is not necessarily the truth. So he has a sort of limited worldview. And I just thought as a sort of sci fi, action adventure, that would make it a lot more intense and exciting. But more difficult to make. Yeah, well, that's what I want to ask you. It it seems like, having seen the film, it does seem like a difficult film to make. It was exhausting. How hard was making this? Well, the thing is, is that you can't really curse the heavens because usually you were the architect of all this in the sense of only you have made it this complicated. You know, you find yourself saying, whose idea was it to make it this complicated?
16:11 Speaker 04 Well, it was my idea. I mean, you as a filmmaker and as, you know, as a co writer, you set the bar for yourself. And so I'm sure there are like times when even people working on the film are thinking, you know, we make this easier for ourselves. But I think the most challenging thing with this was the number of locations. So the irony is, is that I'm not going to bad mouth the 1987 film because I do find it really fun. But when I was a teenager, the fact that it had a more limited scope was something that was, as a fan of the book, was a bit disappointed to me. But now, having been through our shoots and done those 165 locations. Yeah, maybe it could have been 105. Formerly say to the makers of the 1987 one, you guys were smart.
16:57 Sam Fragoso? So around the time you first read The Running Man, I think you were around 14 years old, and you and your brother had begun making short films on a secondhand Super A camera that you received on Christmas. I think it was a double Christmas gift.
17:11 Speaker 04 A double Christmas and...
17:13 Sam Fragoso? Birthday.
17:13 Speaker 04 Birthday. So like kind of four presents.
17:16 Sam Fragoso? Four presents wrapped in one.
17:17 Speaker 04 Yes, it's like sort of like this is a birthday and a Christmas present for you and your brother.
17:22 Sam Fragoso? So you're making films in Wells Somerset, and it's around the time you read The Running Man that you come into contact with an interview much like this one with a director named Sam Raimi.
17:34 Speaker 04 Oh, yeah.
17:34 Sam Fragoso? And I want to just play some of it for you
17:36 Speaker 04 Oh, yeah.
17:37 Sam Fragoso? and for the listeners.
17:38 Speaker 04 Yeah.
17:41 Speaker 05 When The Evil Dead was released in 1982, it attracted rave reviews. Stephen King called it "the most ferociously original horror film of the year." Yet the film had initially been turned down by every American distributor who had seen it.
18:00 Speaker 05 Evil Dead was an independent production, financed by a group of doctors, lawyers, and dentists from America's Midwest. And it marked the feature film debut of writer and director Sam Raimi, who remarkably was only 19 at the time.
18:13 Speaker 06 There are two schools of thought, I think, for horror filmmakers. One is that the audience can always create something more horrible than you can show them. And the other school of thought is, show them, show them, show them, everything. And I believe that both is true. I believe the audience can come up with something more horrible in their minds than I can show them, provided they're given the raw materials to construct something. And I also believe that I have got some pretty horrible things to show myself, so I try and mix and match. I try and scare them and weird them out with visuals. And I try and leave room for them to add their own ingredients to create.
18:49 Speaker 04 That show, The Incredibly Strange Film Show, it wasn't just the Sam Raimi episode, but that was on network TV in the UK. At the time, there were only four channels in the UK. And it was sort of mind blowing to me. There were a number of things like that, the amazing sort of shows on British television. But that particular show that was hosted by Jonathan Ross would do these hour long profiles on different, I guess, like maverick filmmakers. Sam Raimi, John Waters, Russ Meyer, Jackie Chan, kind of before he was like a household name in the Western world. And it was mind blowing to me. And, and the Sam Raimi one obviously really stayed with me because at that time, growing up in Somerset, which is like a rural area in the UK, I wanted to make movies, but I
19:34 Speaker 04 didn't have any industry connections and didn't really know even what the path was. And, you know, so the story of Sam Raimi making an independent film out in Michigan and it being released in cinemas worldwide was a light bulb moment.
19:50 Sam Fragoso? Did it feel like that in the moment?
19:52 Speaker 04 Yeah, I remember actually going to school the next day and talking to my friend and saying, I'm gonna be a film director.
20:00 Speaker 04 So it was a light bulb moment. It was like, that's what I want to do. Like this guy made films on Super A and now he's like a Hollywood director. I could do that. I mean, I didn't, I didn't know how I was gonna do that, but it was like definitely the kind of like the, you know, the touch paper.
20:18 Sam Fragoso? Growing up in Somerset, your parents were art teachers who both had their own artistic aspirations.
20:25 Speaker 04 Yeah, and they actually dropped out of teaching to kind of pursue, you know, actually being like artists in, in a number of different ways. And then also went back to teaching.
20:34 Sam Fragoso? They had the ping pong back and forth, right?
20:36 Speaker 04 Yeah, which was kind of tough and I don't think they really enjoyed the teaching so much. My dad actually eventually, you know, until he retired, sort of like lectured at college. But I don't think they loved teaching kind of secondary school. There was a point where they taught me, which was, which was rough.
20:51 Sam Fragoso? Yes, and, and, and your mother called your nickname in front of your classmates.
20:55 Speaker 04 Yes. Not only did she, well, she called me Pickle in front of the class, which was desperately embarrassing. The other thing that was really embarrassing about it was my mum suddenly had an opinion on all the girls in my class.
21:06 Sam Fragoso? Oh, she had favorites?
21:07 Speaker 04 Yes, well, she taught a girl that I'd had a date with and she literally said, oh my God, I don't know what you saw in Chelsea Thomas, she's so miserable. She goes, why don't you go out with Vanessa Burton? She's so pretty. And I just get mad and say, I don't, I don't like Vanessa Burton. Now, in retrospect, I think my mom is probably right. So shout out to Vanessa Burton, wherever you are.
21:28 Sam Fragoso? And she will, she will watch this clip. So your parents did have these dreams and they would sometimes get to actualize them and then they would have to go back to teaching. Did that oscillating back and forth encourage you to pursue your artistic endeavors? Or did you think, oh, wow, this is gonna be hard?
21:45 Speaker 04 I think a bit of both, actually. If anything, and my brother, you know, who also works in film, seeing our parents struggle in some of their artistic endeavors financially, it should kind of put you off from that, that like, maybe there's no way to make a career in art. But if anything, I think it made us like double down.
22:05 Sam Fragoso? Right. They couldn't do it, but maybe we could.
22:07 Speaker 04 But also, they sacrificed a lot for us to do what we wanted to do. Getting us the Super 8 camera, like, you know, it's not something that they had a lot of money and stuff. So I recognize and even did at the time, like, how supportive they were in us pursuing our dreams, not that we necessarily had any great idea of how to do that. I mean, that said is that I actually ended up going to art college in the place where I lived before, Well Somerset. So it was weirdly like a bit of a homecoming because I'd, I'd actually grown up in that area. But yeah, they were incredibly encouraging. And, you know, as, as this is like me getting my most sincere and sentimental, but you know, you just want to make them proud, you know?
22:50 Sam Fragoso? Was that uncomfortable for you?
22:51 Speaker 04 No. I just wanted it to sound slightly kind of cheesy.
22:58 Sam Fragoso? So in terms of your, your movie going habits at the time, how would you sneak into R rated films?
23:04 Speaker 04 Oh, well, you know, in the UK, the ratings are different.
23:09 Sam Fragoso? 15 rated or something like that.
23:10 Speaker 04 Yeah, but also you don't have the thing that you have in the States where it says children under 17 have to have a parent or guardian.
23:16 Sam Fragoso? Right.
23:16 Speaker 04 That doesn't exist. So if it's a 15, you have to be 15. If it's an 18, you have to be 18.
23:22 Sam Fragoso? Right. But you had a method to gaming the system, right?
23:25 Speaker 04 There was a couple of things. There was a cinema around the corner from our house.
23:29 Sam Fragoso? The Regal?
23:30 Speaker 04 The Regal. It's still there as it's a nightclub now. But the two things is you do the thing of trying to do a deeper voice.
23:38 Sam Fragoso? Go ahead.
23:40 Speaker 04 One for lost boys, please.
23:43 Speaker 04 I got into The Lost Boys, so that time it worked.
23:45 Sam Fragoso? Yeah. Was it as convincing as we just heard?
23:48 Speaker 04 Well, clearly I got in, didn't I? Or maybe they just wanted my money. The other thing I would do is I would put hair gel in my hair. I kind of thought that's something that adults did.
23:57 Sam Fragoso? I think I thought that too.
23:58 Speaker 04 Yeah, product. I think it's watching those kind of like studio line adverts by L'Oréal. It's like they're always kind of like in the eighties, lots of like young men with spiky hair gel. But that was the thing. I also think I wore my dad's trench coat as well.
24:12 Speaker 04 I think actually eventually I just kind of like stole it and just wore it until it fell apart.
24:17 Sam Fragoso? So alongside Sam Raimi, what were the films and who were the filmmakers that you thought, okay, I want to do something like that?
24:23 Speaker 04 Aside from the kind of the big hitters, you know, I'm of the age where I was watching all of the Spielberg and Lucas films as they came out, you know? So I was lucky enough to see Star Wars, Close Encounters, Raiders, like E.T. at the cinema. There was like a period when I was in my sort of early teens that three filmmakers who really sort of stood out to me were Joe Dante, John Carpenter and John Landis. And they were all making either comedies or genre films or horror films, sci fi films. But they all had their own idiosyncrasies and stylistic aspects that you could pinpoint. And this is obviously in an age pre internet where there's very little film writing available to me.
25:07 Speaker 04 It's not like the newsagents in my town would even carry Sight and Sound. And like the library didn't really have any books on films. So you would just have to learn about the films by watching them, you know? So those are three that really sort of stood out to me. And then maybe later, people like Sam Raimi and the Coen Brothers, you know, obviously then it's like classic cinema as well, but like in terms of people who were making films at the time.
25:29 Sam Fragoso? Well, all three of those are apparent in your early work for sure. I mean, from Space to Shaun of the Dead. The one question I had about this, this period, when you first saw Simon Pegg, I think you were bouncing around TV gigs in London as a director in your early twenties. Did you think we're meant to do something?
25:49 Speaker 04 Yeah, we, um, I met him backstage at a standup show. It was actually before I'd started doing TV, but after I'd done my first film, which I did straight out of art college, a very low budget film. And I saw him backstage at this comedy gig. And I had seen him on TV doing stand up. And it was actually, he was doing like a stand up routine about regional news in the West Country. And so I had that kind of Leo DiCaprio like meme pointing at the TV moment where I was like, I know that. I know HTV news. I know Points West. I'm from the West Country. And I, I think I went up and said that to him. And I think he clearly thought like, who's this weirdo with the beard?
26:31 Speaker 04 And then actually like, maybe about a year later, I was directing him in something. I did this show on the Paramount Comedy Channel called Asylum and Simon was in it. And then that was very much the point when I was actually directing him. That he was so incredible that I thought, I don't know what it is yet, but I want to make a film with you in it. And it was because he had that quality, which eventually he would do in Space and Shaun of the Dead. This comic everyman quality, which is something I think is a difficult thing to pull off and is an underrated talent. Because, you know, especially in British comedy, a lot of comedic performers dealing grotesques or dealing something that's like a sort of larger than life performance, whether it's like Sacha Baron Cohen or Steve Coogan.
27:15 Speaker 04 When Simon sort of was more in the kind of the mold of like a Jack Lemmon. You know, like the funny everyman and brilliant at it. And like a brilliant kind of like dramatic actor and comedic actor. So I didn't know what it was. And this is even before Space is like, I gotta make a film with this guy. Now, this is obviously like eight years away from us making Shaun of the Dead, but I, I had a feeling about it.
27:36 Sam Fragoso? So you make Space, it goes pretty well. You're offered a third season. You all decide to not make that.
27:43 Speaker 04 I mean, I think, I wonder if Simon and Jess probably would have made a third. I think we were all exhausted. The thing with British comedy shows is unlike the States, is it's a really small team. Like if you have a sitcom here, there's like an army of writers and producers. But on Space, it was like Simon and Jess wrote the whole thing and I directed every single episode. So by the end of the second series, I was just exhausted and burnt out. And just the thought of doing a third one, I, I just couldn't kind of like even conceive it. I just needed to do something else.
28:10 Sam Fragoso? So when you do finally make Shaun of the Dead, you describe the year of 2004 as quote, "the best year of my life." Does it still feel like that? And if so, like, what does it play like to you when you play it back?
28:23 Speaker 04 I mean, if it's not the best year of my life, 2004.
28:25 Sam Fragoso? It's up there.
28:26 Speaker 04 It's definitely the year that everything changed.
28:28 Sam Fragoso? OK, so tell us what happened.
28:31 Speaker 04 Well, A, the movie came out in the UK and was a hit.
28:35 Speaker 02 Do you ever think modern life is not for you?
28:40 Speaker 02 You do the same dead-end job every day.
28:44 Speaker 07 There's no I in team, but there is an I in pie. In, there's an I in meat pie. The anagram of meat is team. I don't know.
28:52 Speaker 02 Is your love life dying on its feet?
28:55 Speaker 08 It's your wonderful mum.
28:57 Speaker 02 Oh. Have you ever felt that you're turning into a zombie?
29:05 Speaker 02 Dibbidi, dibbidi, dibbidi, dibbidi, dibbidi.
29:09 Speaker 02 Dibbidi, dibbidi, dibbidi, dibbidi, dibbidi.
29:12 Speaker 02 Although no one is prepared to comment, religious groups are calling it Judgment Day. It is vital that you stay in your homes.
29:21 Speaker 02 Avoid all contact with the assailant. Here's sofa.
29:30 Speaker 02 The attackers can be stopped by removing the head or destroying the brain.
29:37 Speaker 02 Look for the head.
29:39 Speaker 07 Purple rain. No, son of a son. Definitely not. The Batman soundtrack.
29:43 Speaker 02 The biggest zombie comedy in British history is invading America. I'm coming! And if you're looking for a man. You've taken a shortcut before.
29:53 Speaker 02 With the right moves.
29:56 Speaker 09 Nice, good vocal work. Let's all try together, shall we? One, two.
30:04 Speaker 02 The only thing that will redeem mankind is cooperation. Good luck.
30:13 Speaker 02 Two seconds. And hold it there.
30:17 Speaker 04 But beyond that, the thing I really felt like my life is changing was actually going to other countries promoting the film, like travelling in a way that I'd never done before, and going to countries that I'd never been to before, and meeting people in those countries that became friends, or meeting like heroes of mine. Like, that's the year that I met Sam Raimi, that's the year that I met Peter Jackson, it's the year that I met Quentin Tarantino, all of these like filmmaking heroes. I mean, weirdly enough, Stephen King, I didn't meet Stephen King that year, but he did give us a press quote for Shaun of the Dead, which was mind blowing to me, as a fan of his since a teenager, it's like, there's a newspaper ad for Shaun of the Dead in the US with a Stephen King quote on it, this is wild.
31:00 Speaker 04 The other moment, and I mean, Simon, both remember this very vividly, was, it was the moment where George Romero watched Shaun of the Dead and called us. We had arranged for him to see the film, because I think we thought like, we've just paid a great homage, stroke ripped off, this great man, with a film that, you know, like refers to the title of his film, maybe he'd like to see it, so we offered to screen it for him, and he watched it in a cinema in Florida, and then called us that night. And I remember being in my flat in North London, and getting an incoming call from the States, and talking to George Romero on the phone about the film, and that felt like the start of something changing.
31:42 Sam Fragoso? What about the call sticks with you now?
31:45 Speaker 04 Well, a couple of things, I think number one is that, a very flashback to being the 14-year-old of like, I want to kind of like make movies, but I don't know how, and I don't know in one of the industry, then to sort of jump forward to 2004, somebody that you revere is calling you to talk to you about your film, and being incredibly nice about it, it was just life-changing, you know? And I don't really know how to describe it, other than like, I sort of felt forever changed after that call from George.
32:14 Sam Fragoso? Well, on the other side of being forever changed, you make a series of films that I want to talk about, which I will do right after the break.
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35:21 Sam Fragoso? Coming back, I want to talk about the visual language of the films a little bit. Because even from Shaun of the Dead to Hot Fuzz, it was always clear when you were watching an Edgar Wright movie. And a lot of filmmakers don't have that right away. It takes a couple at bats. So this visual language that carries through the Cornetto trilogy, where you film the mundane moments of daily life, like you shoot a cup of coffee being poured into a cup, or police paperwork being filed, with as much urgency as like the people at Los Alamos building an atomic bomb.
35:54 Speaker 04 Yeah.
35:55 Sam Fragoso? Like, they're equal importance in your film, and I guess Oppenheimer's analogy. Where do you think that instinct and approach comes from? Are there any filmmakers or films that are like clear antecedents for you?
36:08 Speaker 04 Yeah, absolutely. I mean, Sam Raimi would be one of them for sure. And in fact, I later then worked with the cinematographer who shot Army of Darkness and Darkman, and Spider-Man 2, in fact. But you know what it was in Shaun of the Dead? It was the idea that you were building up to a gun-loading montage. So when they're in the Winchester, you have all these quick-cut montages of mundane shit, like putting jam on toast, and making a cup of tea, or like pressing the answering machine. And all the kind of things that in-action movies would usually be, guns being loaded, like in- Terminator or Aliens, James Cameron would always have some kind of really huge close up of like a gun being cocked.
36:50 Speaker 04 The idea was that you were building up to the moment where you had all these kind of action montages for mundane shit, but building up to the point in the finale where he does load a rifle. So I guess that's where that came from. And then with Hot Fuzz, then the joke was, well, you know, Michael Bay and Tony Scott would like shoot the shit out of like spinning wheels and kind of gear sticks and stuff. But why not do the same thing for the paperwork, the boring stuff? Why not shoot the paperwork like it's man on fire?
37:19 Sam Fragoso? It's amazing.
37:20 Speaker 04 Oh, thank you.
37:21 Sam Fragoso? I rewatched it the other night and I forgot just how beautifully dumb and perfect it was. Like his glee for filling up paperwork is just unmatched. And, and the ferocity in which he books these criminals around town and, and it's amazing.
37:36 Speaker 04 I think my favorite shot in that is the kid with the traffic camera on his head is, is standing on the kind of the height shot and that they have to take the traffic carried off. It's like, no, his head is not actually that height. And you know what's funny is like talking about degrees of difficulty, those inserts would always be the thing that I'd have to argue for. On Shaun of the Dead, it would always be because it's still a shot, even if it's a close up of something, you still need to spend time doing it. And it would always be the question, do we really need those shots?
38:06 Sam Fragoso? I think PTA said the same thing about Boogie Nights.
38:09 Speaker 04 Yeah, inserts always like people are like, do you really need those shots?
38:13 Sam Fragoso? Well, especially the way the two of you do inserts.
38:16 Speaker 04 Yes. So what would happen is um, on Shaun, to get these shots, we'd have two cameras, A and B camera, we'd stagger their lunch so that they would start an hour later. And then over lunch, I would do three close ups with them. And then at the end of the day, I'd do another two or three close ups. And then I'd cut them together and I'd show, you know, the producers like, oh, this is the idea. This is why this is important. To be honest, it's always still. It's always a thing where like you always end up on a shoot, having to do all these closeups. It's always the like ends up being the last thing that you do.
38:51 Sam Fragoso? Uh huh.
38:52 Speaker 04 So you do like some big production, like baby driver with car chases and exterior locations, but the last shots of the film you will will do is somebody's hand on the gear stick and somebody's foot on the pedal and pushing buttons. You know, it is something that it's continued throughout my work and it never gets any easier. They're always complicated.
39:12 Sam Fragoso? They're always complicated.
39:13 Speaker 04 Yeah.
39:14 Sam Fragoso? Well, you've made a lot of movies, so it's impossible for us to go through all of them as comprehensively as I'd like to. So I'm gonna ask, I've come up with this bit and it's dumb. I admit it's dumb. You used to do a series here in Los Angeles at the New Beverly.
39:28 Speaker 04 Yes.
39:29 Sam Fragoso? Called The Right Stuff.
39:30 Speaker 04 Yeah.
39:30 Sam Fragoso? Okay, this is called The Right Questions.
39:32 Speaker 04 Yes.
39:32 Sam Fragoso? So let's start with Hot Fuzz. Hot Fuzz famously an original film, but what many people don't know, and I think we should reveal it finally, is that it was adapted in part from an original text from a Word document.
39:48 Speaker 04 I know where you're going with this.
39:49 Sam Fragoso? Called Spooky Doings. And I just think maybe we should clear the air once and for all. People have been wondering.
39:56 Speaker 04 I mean, it's funny, when you're a teenager, you tend to kind of like push against your parents. But my mom is very much open to conspiracy theories and UFOs and and all sorts and ghosts and the supernatural.
40:11 Sam Fragoso? You had a lot of Freemasons where you grew up.
40:12 Speaker 04 Yes. Well, that's true. We'll come back to that. So I think maybe I would push against my mom sometimes, but in reality, I was just doing that to be a contrary little prick as a teenager. But no, it'd be more like I would want to believe as well and still do is like, I'm not somebody who's, I'm not a cynic in that regard. I'd love to see a ghost. I do believe that there must be something else out there. But my mom was very sort of like hot on anything like that and conspiracies. And a lot of stuff about the area that we lived in, in terms of like, you know, secret societies and Freemasons and even kind of like crime and gangsters and all sorts. And so having grown up hearing
40:54 Speaker 04 all these stories and in my teenage years, my natural response being like, Mom, shut up. I said, could you write down all of this stuff into a document?
41:04 Sam Fragoso? Hmm.
41:04 Speaker 04 And she was in heaven. And so I think her and some of her friends kind of put together this document of every sort of tale of like dark doings in the area. And that formed the basis for us. It's true.
41:18 Sam Fragoso? What, what in the document ended up in the film?
41:21 Speaker 04 Well, one of the things that was funny to me and that is straight in the movie is I used to work in a supermarket. That was my like Saturday job and then summer, my holiday job as well, but I would work there.
41:32 Sam Fragoso? You were a shelf stacker at Gateway? And you worked in the grocery store from late teens to early twenties?
41:38 Speaker 04 Yeah, like probably about five years. But what would happen is that all the girls from school would come through and I, and the uniform was so terrible. And I would feel like such a dork in my like gray.
41:49 Sam Fragoso? They'd walk in and they'd go, oh my God, it's pickle.
41:52 Speaker 04 It's pickle. It is gray uniform stacking nappies. You also, there's, there's never anything cool to stack when they walk past either.
42:00 Sam Fragoso? What? Hold on.
42:03 Sam Fragoso? Edgar, what would have been an appropriately cool thing to stack?
42:07 Speaker 04 I don't know. That is a good question.
42:09 Sam Fragoso? Boxes of condoms?
42:11 Speaker 04 Yes. Usually they're behind the counter. Like, yeah, I wouldn't be stocking those. Those are behind the counter in a, in a glass case.
42:17 Sam Fragoso? Right.
42:17 Speaker 04 Actually, no, they would, they would be like sort of, probably it'd be a thing is like, don't mind me whilst I'm just stacking these Durex's.
42:27 Speaker 04 Ribbed for her pleasure, as it says on the box. Is it a thing? Do you still get a thing on podcasts that if you mention a brand name, you get free ones?
42:36 Sam Fragoso? It's weird because you're asking.
42:37 Speaker 04 Durex are listening.
42:38 Sam Fragoso? You're asking like you're going to get the free thing.
42:42 Speaker 04 Well, Durex is not a US brand though, is it? Was it Magnum's, Trojans? What are the big ones here?
42:47 Sam Fragoso? Yeah. Well, the big ones are Magnum's.
42:51 Speaker 04 We digressed massively. Let's go back to Freemasons. And it was massive.
42:58 Speaker 04 Okay. Okay. So magnums. Yeah, no, no, go back. Go back to your mother. Yeah.
43:04 Speaker 04 Freemasons. When I used to work in the supermarket. Right. My boss, whose name, now, by the way, this name, we did not put this in Hot Fuzz because it would seem like too comic a name for a supermarket manager. Yeah. But his name was really Mike Stockwell. He was the manager of the supermarket. I kid you not. His name was Mike Stockwell. The studio would go like, look. Come on, that's two on the nose. Come on. This is insane.
43:29 Speaker 04 So he wasn't a Freemason himself, but he would cater for the Freemason meeting. And I know this because he was the worst person at keeping a secret. He would do this thing where he would say, he'd have like a sort of like crate of like sparkling water. He would say, can't really talk about it, the secret meeting, the Freemasons. And so I just learnt a number of things. I knew that like, oh, every Wednesday, the Freemasons meet in the function room at the Star Hotel. That's where the Freemasons meet. And Mike Stockwell brings them free drinks. So I had this image of what this meeting was without actually being there, but it sort of seemed to confirm all of my mum's conspiracy theories about the Freemasons. Which do appear in some form or another in Hot Fuzz.
44:13 Speaker 04 Oh, absolutely. Yes, it does. Absolutely. And we had to film it in that town. So I was keep kept worrying that the Freemasons were going to shut us down. But when I finally, when I was actually scouting for Hot Fuzz, and listen, you build up an image in your head of like, what does the Wednesday meeting look like? Right. You know, what is this kind of Gothic dungeon where the Freemasons meet? And then when I was doing location scouting for Hot Fuzz, I think maybe we were staying at the Star Hotel. I said, hey, I want to look at the function room. And of course, it's the most boring conference room you've ever seen. So there was something that's very much in the movie about the disparity between my imagination of what this like. Dark and dastardly secret meeting wars and the utter mundanity of the reality.
44:58 Sam Fragoso? But this trilogy, Shaun of the Dead, Hot Fuzz and The World's End, they all are about, in some ways, your upbringing in Wales.
45:05 Speaker 04 Yeah, and Simon's in Gloucester as well.
45:08 Sam Fragoso? Yeah, exactly. Once the two of you made those three films, how did the community feel about them? Like, when you came back home, were you heroes? Did anyone care?
45:18 Speaker 04 I was worried how Hot Fuzz would go down because I'm essentially suggesting that many people in my hometown are killers.
45:28 Sam Fragoso? World's End, it's, yeah, the robots blanks?
45:32 Speaker 04 Yeah. Well, Hot Fuzz, like, they loved it in Wales. In fact, there's a walking tour in Wales Somerset you can do of the locations. I guess The World's End was more about the feeling of, you know, the idea that you can't go home. I remember that feeling of like, every time you go back at the holidays, the town has moved on without you and, and they don't even remember that you were ever there. So it was this feeling of like, your hometown feeling more alien to you. I mean, all three of those movies, in different ways, are about making Hollywood genre films through our own lens of the people we are and where we grew up, you know?
46:14 Speaker 04 So it was really about the narrow focus of an alien invasion or like a massive conspiracy or like a zombie invasion.
46:22 Sam Fragoso? Scott Pilgrim, you wrote it in Tarantino's Guest House?
46:28 Speaker 04 Partly, yes.
46:29 Sam Fragoso? And how often would he come in and go like, hey, what are you working on?
46:32 Speaker 04 Well, there was a period, it was after Hot Fuzz, it was after the press tour, and I'd just been through a breakup back in London. So I was sort of in no rush to go back to London. And I was thinking about staying in Los Angeles, which I'd never done for like a long period of time. And he'd been a generous supporter of Shaun and Hot Fuzz. And when I mentioned this to him, he goes, where are you gonna stay? And I said, I don't know, maybe I'll have to rent a apartment. He goes, stay in the guest house. And so, I mean, I think I overstayed my welcome. I stayed there for like, close to a year.
47:04 Sam Fragoso? Did he say that you did?
47:05 Speaker 04 I mean, eventually they asked me to go, so, not directly. You know, they needed it. You know what? It's funny, they actually used it as a production office for Inglourious Basterds. And it was like, Edgar, we need the guest house.
47:15 Sam Fragoso? Did he say it in a kind of Kieran Culkin and Scott Pilgrim to Scott Pilgrim kind of way?
47:21 Speaker 04 Listen, hey, never charge me rent. I did give him, I think, the best present to say thank you. How can you thank?
47:28 Sam Fragoso? Back end points on Scott Pilgrim?
47:29 Speaker 04 No, I mean, that would be nothing. I didn't do that well.
47:35 Speaker 04 That would be like a prank. Hey, his back end points to my film that didn't make his money back. Maybe it has now. I don't know. They don't tell you the true accounting.
47:42 Sam Fragoso? What was the present?
47:43 Speaker 04 The present was, so he collects lunchboxes. Happy days like Batman, the TV series, you know, Jukes of Hazzard. And he had told me once that the first thing he ever wrote was a Smoking the Bandit ripoff called Captain Peach Fuzz and the Anchovy Bandit. So I thought this is my present because I haven't paid rent. He's never charged me rent. How do you possibly say thank you? And so I commissioned an artist to make a Captain Peach Fuzz and the Anchovy Bandit lunchbox with him playing one of the characters and make it look really authentic. So it looked like a seventies lunchbox.
48:18 Sam Fragoso? Good lord.
48:19 Speaker 04 And also because he does like the weed. So, and I'd never bought like sort of that. I filled it full of weed. Which is quite a lot of money to fill a lunchbox with weed.
48:29 Sam Fragoso? At that time, before it was legal.
48:31 Speaker 04 Before it was legal, yeah, absolutely. But then what I also did is I hid it in the house.
48:35 Sam Fragoso? Oh.
48:36 Speaker 04 So I would wait for him to find it.
48:38 Sam Fragoso? A little hide and seek.
48:39 Speaker 04 Well, it was in the display of all the other lunchboxes. I was off doing, probably doing Scott Pilgrim and he was doing Glorious Bastards. And I eventually spoke to him because I didn't hear anything about it. And then I said, did you get your present? And he sent back like a photo of the lunchbox in the middle of it. Then I asked, then the dumb guy said, did you look inside? He goes, of course I looked inside. A very dumb question, did you look inside? Yeah, of course I looked inside.
49:04 Sam Fragoso? Well, he didn't say anything yet. So you mentioned Scott Pilgrim flopped.
49:08 Speaker 04 Yes.
49:09 Sam Fragoso? I didn't remember that because in revisiting the movie, it's so beloved and also it's just, it's a very special film.
49:16 Speaker 04 Yeah. And listen, I say that, I mean, I'm very proud of the movie, but also we was very fortunate and the new Beverly played a part in this, actually, I gotta say. It sort of had become like a cult item by the end of the year. And the new Beverly was sort of the instigator. Later that they just started running it on midnights.
49:33 Sam Fragoso? But you know how we talked about in the beginning of this episode, how the running man kind of portended all the stuff we're in right now in twenty twenty five? And looking back at that movie, was there some part of you working out this idea that we were increasingly becoming like an ADHD? Dopamine dependent era? It almost feels like it was ahead of its time.
49:53 Speaker 04 I mean, I don't think you do any of that stuff consciously, but then I think a lot of films that don't do well and then build up an audience. It's that thing that doesn't usually get to happen on the first release is it needs to find its audience.
50:06 Sam Fragoso? Right.
50:06 Speaker 04 Most films that sort of do well are like more immediate in terms of the premise is something that everybody can latch on to. People can easily understand it from a TV spot. I remember, I remember doing press junkets for it and they said, how would you describe the movie? And the thing is, I'd start to say something like, well, it's like a romance comedy kung fu. And as soon as you said more than two genres, I could feel this buzzer in my head go off. Do you know what I mean? It's like, say two, don't say three, don't say three, say action comedy, don't say action comedy, romance, kung fu.
50:39 Sam Fragoso? Is this like when you pitch a movie and you're?
50:40 Speaker 04 Yes, exactly. The elevator pitch.
50:42 Sam Fragoso? Yeah.
50:42 Speaker 04 But yeah, it is a thing when you're trying to promote a movie. If it's not completely immediate to sum up in one sentence, you might be in trouble.
50:50 Sam Fragoso? So since that was your first film in Hollywood and now you're back here with the running man, what did you learn from that?
50:57 Speaker 04 Yeah, it didn't, it didn't discourage me. I think also everybody who worked on the movie and the studio as well, knew how hard we've worked on it and how proud we were of it. And I think one of the reasons it became kind of culty is because the cast kind of kept sort of promoting it and sticking around. Like if a film does badly and people don't like it, everybody like runs for the hills and doesn't want to talk about it ever again. But the truth of it is that everybody was really proud of the movie, cast included. So it was like, we kept talking about it, even if it was like kind of long after its release. I think it is something where, you know, there were sort of lessons to be learned. So doing two things at once is the kind of the movie that you can sell in a trailer.
51:41 Speaker 04 And then maybe you smuggle a lot of stuff in, like a lot of the other films of Trojan Horses. And Baby Driver is a little bit like that. Like, the trailer for Baby Driver doesn't necessarily let on how much of a musical it is, because if you said, Baby Driver, the action musical, the Fast and the Furious crowd are not going to show up to see it.
52:00 Sam Fragoso? Right.
52:01 Speaker 04 Whereas if you make it seem like it's a big car chase movie, and then they like what else you're selling. Where things get sticky is if you're pretending that the film is something that it's not, and the audience don't like what it actually is. In the case of Baby Driver, we were lucky is that the trailers sort of sell a more action-packed, more bro-y movie, and then the reality of it is it's actually maybe more stylish and sort of musical, but as it turned out, that crowd liked it too, you know?
52:28 Sam Fragoso? But see, this disconnect between the thing you present.
52:31 Speaker 04 Yeah.
52:31 Sam Fragoso? And the thing you get. When the Ant-Man of it all went down, you said, I wanted to make a Marvel movie, but I don't think they wanted to make an Edgar Wright movie.
52:41 Speaker 04 Yeah.
52:41 Sam Fragoso? When did you realize that?
52:44 Speaker 04 I had this feeling about it going into it. After The World's End, we had written a version of the script before, like, the MCU had become the MCU, like, before Iron Man had even come out. And then in that time between then, and I'd done two other movies, like Scott Peggham with The World's End, by the time I actually came to make the movie, or potentially make the movie, they had become a brand, and they had a house style, and they had a certain way of working, and they had, you know, sort of things that they had to fulfill within the movie that didn't really fit in with my, maybe more left-field version.
53:20 Sam Fragoso? Hmm.
53:20 Speaker 04 And so in, in making the movie or going into pre-production, it's, it became more apparent that that was the way it was going. And at a certain point, I thought, well, to quote Tim Robinson, I think I should leave.
53:35 Sam Fragoso? My only other thing I want to ask you is, the only time I saw you express any emotion or sadness about the project was in the form of a tweet. And it was a tweet that just said selfie and it was a photo of a Buster Keaton with a-
53:52 Speaker 04 A Cornetto, right?
53:53 Sam Fragoso? Yes.
53:54 Speaker 04 I regret posting that, actually. Somebody said to me, "Take that down. Don't give him anything."
53:58 Sam Fragoso? Is it because British people are afraid of emotions?
54:03 Speaker 04 I think the thing was, is I didn't mean it in every, the way everybody interpreted it. I thought it was funny because somebody had sent me, it was like the Buster Keaton Society, who were on Twitter, had sent me a picture of Buster with a Cornetto. So I just posted it, but then lots of people like read a lot into it and said, "Ah, of course, he's referring to when Buster Keaton was demolished by the studio system." And I said, "Oh, no, I just posted it because it was a photo of him with a Cornetto."
54:29 Sam Fragoso? For, for people listening in audio, it is a photo of him looking-
54:33 Speaker 04 He's sitting in a-
54:34 Sam Fragoso? Kind of longingly, he looks kind of sad, like forlorn, yeah.
54:37 Speaker 04 Yeah, forlorn, but he had a Cornetto. But I, I literally reposted it because somebody had sent me like a Buster Keaton with a Cornetto. And then many people read into it about, "Oh, he's commenting on Buster Keaton getting kind of destroyed by the studio system."
54:52 Sam Fragoso? And you getting destroyed by the Marvel system.
54:53 Speaker 04 And I know, that's why I deleted that tweet.
54:56 Sam Fragoso? This is why this show exists. We're here to clear the record.
55:00 Speaker 04 I like that you thought that was me at my most emotional as well, like posting a like, a Cornetto tweet. I mean, I think, you know, talking about studio movies, I mean, the thing that was really great for me eventually was that my next movie was with a studio and was my biggest hit. But I remember when I, when I left the movie and Baby Driver existed as a script and there was interest in it, and it was actually Bill Pope, the cinematographer, the same man who did Army of Darkness, no less. Just as things were starting to sour, just before I left on that man. I remember we were location scouting in Atlanta. The Baby Driver script existed and I remember Bill Pope sitting in the backseat of the car and he could sense as well that it was sort of starting to get tense on the movie a little bit. And I remember he just said, "Apropos of nothing."
55:46 Speaker 04 You should make Baby Driver. And I was in the front seat and I said, yeah, you know, like, once we get through this, I'd love to do this and do that. And Bill Pepp said, no, I mean now. And he like just said it out loud. And it was that weird thing where sort of like somebody speaking your subconscious thoughts. And that is eventually what ended up happening and with Bill shooting it, no less. But I remember when I, when I left, I said to my agent, as long as I'm making a movie, hopefully Baby Driver, by the time that film comes out, I'll be fine. Cause I'll be so wrapped up in something else that it won't bother me. And that didn't quite happen. It was still like another like eighteen months to two years before I was making Baby Driver.
56:28 Speaker 04 And I do remember that there was a point, I wouldn't say it was a low point because I was, I, I didn't regret leaving at all. I knew I should be doing something else and that that was the right decision. But it was still kind of like, like a low moment was that Baby Driver wasn't quite happening yet. You know, the, the studio were interested, but there's a, a number of factors that have to come together for a film to get greenlit. And it hadn't happened yet. So there was a lot of the process of getting cast and getting the budget and figuring it out. But it definitely wasn't greenlit and I wasn't actually working. And I remember being in Los Angeles in traffic, stuck behind a bus with an Ant-Man advert. And when you're stuck in traffic for Los Angeles, you're stuck behind that bus for a long time.
57:12 Speaker 04 At that point, I was very much reminded of like, yes, this film is coming out this weekend and I am not currently directing anything. So that, that was, um, but you know, as a repressed Brit, I didn't, I didn't say anything. I just sat there. As, as a what? A repressed Brit. It's not like I was going, fuck you, boss. When, when Brits come out of the womb, are they just born repressed? Yeah, babies don't cry in the UK. I don't know if you know that. They don't. No, they're very polite. They're Buster Keaton.
57:40 Speaker 04 See, that was who I was referring to with the selfie tweet.
57:42 Sam Fragoso? It wasn't the self destruction and him falling out with the studio. It was about how we both can't exhibit sadness. Are you a repressed Brit?
57:50 Speaker 04 I mean, I think most Brits are sort of like generally your default setting.
57:54 Sam Fragoso? Right. Do you have some updates?
57:55 Speaker 04 Well, one thing I was, The World's End is an example of, at the time that that film came out, Simon had not talked about his problems with alcohol. It was like a private matter amongst friends. And I can say that now because he talks about it in interviews. I'm not going to speak for him and speak about it. But I did sort of joke that, you know, it was easier for us to write a comedy film about it than actually talk about it like two adults.
58:20 Speaker 04 So it was like sort of like classic sort of thing of like, um, just let's make a movie about the elephant in the room instead.
58:25 Sam Fragoso? But both Simon Pegg and Nick Frost have given a lot of quotes, of which I have them here, about how the film was directly slash indirectly kind of saying the thing Bill Pope was saying to you in the backseat of the car. Like the subconscious thing that you're not saying, the elephant in the room.
58:43 Speaker 04 Yeah, yeah.
58:43 Sam Fragoso? Did you feel that while making the movie?
58:46 Speaker 04 Oh, yeah. It was actually sort of, Simon was actually sort of sober. And we'd already had the idea, but it's suddenly that this is what the film is about.
58:54 Sam Fragoso? Were you uncomfortable with that at all?
58:56 Speaker 04 No, I actually felt in writing it, I was really proud of Simon. It was like therapeutic to write it. Like I said, it was easy to write it and kind of even, you know, be serious, but also make jokes about it. Was easier to do than like really like talk about it.
59:13 Sam Fragoso? I mean, the film opens in an AA meeting.
59:15 Speaker 04 Yeah, no, it was, um, I was really proud of Simon for going there. I think it's his best performance, in fact. I mean, he's brilliant in all the films, but I think Gary King is like his best performance.
59:25 Sam Fragoso? I stayed up till 2 AM last night rewatching.
59:27 Speaker 04 That's probably exactly the right time of night to watch that movie.
59:30 Speaker 07 Good evening, Regamondo. The prodigal sons return. Hi. Who's on the guest list tonight? Come again? The guest Aos. We, sir, are doing the Golden Mile, and you have the honour of drawing first blood. What do you recommend? There's one, it's crowning glory. Rather fitting. How's that? I'm Gary King. What? So tell me more. About what? Crowning glory, is it nutty? Is it foamy? Is it hoppy? Does it have a surprisingly fruity note, which lingers on the tongue? Hmm, it's beer. Mmm. We'll have five of those, please. Uh, sorry. Can we have four of those? And a tap water, please. What?
1:00:15 Speaker 07 I don't believe this. A man of your legendary prowess drinking fucking rain. It's like seeing a lion eating some humus. Doesn't make any sense. I know it doesn't make any sense. You seriously have a problem with me not drinking after what happened? I don't, but King Arthur does. Oh, this'll be good. What's King Arthur got to do with it? Do you honestly think that King Arthur came back from the Battle of Hastings, fucking rocked up at Arthur's castle? Camel up. Walked up to the bar and went, "Hello, can I have a tap water?" No, because they didn't have running water in Arthurian times. Exactly. He would have had a mead, the King Arthur of beers. I'm less of a man because I choose to drink water. Well, it's a bit old ducky, isn't it? It's not very PC, Gary. Get out of the 90s, Pete.
1:00:58 Sam Fragoso? I did wonder for you, you said that that movie, it was working through a lot of personal demons that we had. Now, I understand Simon and Nix and what they were going through. What were you trying to work out?
1:01:10 Speaker 04 That's a good question. I mean, I think actually there was some... That is a good question.
1:01:14 Sam Fragoso? I was bound to hit one of them.
1:01:18 Speaker 04 What I mean is this is a good question is I don't, I don't have the immediate answer to that. You've got me. You got me.
1:01:23 Sam Fragoso? We're just trying to get you. We're not trying to got you.
1:01:27 Speaker 04 Well, I think partly it's also like being in that situation where not knowing how to deal with an issue and not being able to confront it.
1:01:36 Sam Fragoso? Uh huh.
1:01:37 Speaker 04 Which is something that you take no pride in that. You know, I was sort of aware that this was happening on the previous two movies, but it was a difficult thing to confront somebody who doesn't want to deal with it themselves.
1:01:49 Sam Fragoso? Right.
1:01:49 Speaker 04 And it wasn't like I staged an intervention or anything. I kind of felt like I was not even as he's my very good friend that I could do that. So it was kind of like feeling kind of like cowardly.
1:02:01 Sam Fragoso? But you also drank together.
1:02:03 Speaker 04 Yeah, but not at the, you know, not in the same way. And actually sort of like, we didn't used to really socialize like that at a certain point. In fact, Shaun of the Dead, all of the lines that Kate Ashfield has at the start of the movie about going somewhere else was me talking because Simon and Nick used to at the time always drink in the same pub every night.
1:02:23 Sam Fragoso? Right.
1:02:24 Speaker 04 They used to like absolutely wax lyrical about this place, which I thought was just like an ordinary boozer and I didn't see what the big deal was.
1:02:34 Sam Fragoso? The magic.
1:02:34 Speaker 04 I didn't see what the magic was in the way that they did. And to hang out with them, which I wanted to do, it meant I would have to go there like every night. And in a way, actually, growing up in in the West Country, like the only thing to do as a teenager would be to drink underage. There was nothing to do in town. I was in like a town with not much to do apart from the cinema and like 15 pubs. So everybody used to sort of drink as a teenager and drink underage. And actually, when I came to London, I think people assume that I must love pubs because of Shaun and Hot Fuzz in the World End, when in fact I sort of do everything I can to escape them. So as people say, well, why would you make a film like The World's End if you don't like pubs?
1:03:17 Speaker 04 And I was like, well, that's the personal demons, I guess. But it was also like trying to deal with that. And yeah, like I said, Shaun of the Dead is like, if I wanted to hang out with my friends, I'd have to go to this pub every night and I couldn't see what the big deal was. So Kate Ashfield's dialogue at the start of Shaun of the Dead is me talking.
1:03:34 Sam Fragoso? So when you wrap your way. A decade later, back around at World's End, it's closing the loop in some way, I imagine.
1:03:41 Speaker 04 Yeah, I think so. I mean, I think a lot of the films, they're all kind of love stroke hate letters to the place you came from or the place you live, like sort of like Shaun of the Dead is about like North London, where we lived at the time. Hot Fuzz is kind of about where we grew up. And World's End is about not being able to return home. You can't go home again. But it's all like, it's both kind of affection about them, but also satirizing them at the same time.
1:04:08 Sam Fragoso? I think it's fascinating that like, having rewatched all the films in the last week, there's this period of you working out various ideas of Arrested Development, basically.
1:04:18 Speaker 04 Yeah.
1:04:18 Sam Fragoso? And from that point on, I think Baby Driver, Last Night in Soho and Running Man, they're all very different from each other and they're all very different from the Cornetto trilogy.
1:04:29 Speaker 04 I think also, you know, Simon and Nica actors as well, so they got to be in way more films than I could like sort of direct. I kind of would do a movie every three years. So it was something where it wasn't like for any, I mean, we talk about doing something together again all the time. In fact, I'm gonna see them next week. But it was also just in terms of just wanting to spread my wings and do different things.
1:04:51 Sam Fragoso? Yeah. What did you want to do?
1:04:53 Speaker 04 I guess it's just you want to just tell different stories. I think the thing that's, I mean, usually that it's a film every three years. You know, The Running Man is four years, it's the last movie. And I would make more movies if I could quicker.
1:05:08 Sam Fragoso? Does that bother you?
1:05:09 Speaker 04 No, I'd love to. I used to kind of like kind of envy the Coen Brothers where they had a movie out a year and then I thought, oh, but there's two of them.
1:05:16 Sam Fragoso? Right.
1:05:17 Speaker 04 No, I'd love to do that. It's difficult, you know, like I'd love to, I'd love to make movies more frequently.
1:05:23 Sam Fragoso? Because of how intensive they are and visually complicated, I imagine.
1:05:27 Speaker 04 It's a number of things. I mean, in this particular case, there was also like in 2023, most of the year, there was an actor's strike and a writer's strike.
1:05:34 Sam Fragoso? Right.
1:05:34 Speaker 04 So, you know, other factors come into it as well. And, you know, obviously the pandemic, you know, partially destroyed the industry.
1:05:41 Sam Fragoso? Yeah.
1:05:41 Speaker 04 Both like actually shooting and exhibition.
1:05:44 Sam Fragoso? Well, I want to talk about that, kind of big picture before we go. In The World's End, the aliens are blanks. And I was thinking how similar they felt to what I think artificial intelligence is becoming right now, and especially starting in 2023, where there was the double labor strike, both the actress and the writers. One of the biggest contentions, one of the sticking points of the contract, was the use of artificial intelligence. What do you make of this move towards AI and the future of filmmaking?
1:06:16 Speaker 04 I think some of the hype about it is disingenuous because I think you read these articles where people are talking about it like this is a new form of artistry. Whereas I think there's a big portion of it where people are rubbing their hands, thinking about how much cheaper it's going to be and how we don't have to employ anybody. So that's how I feel about it when I read these kind of like hagiography, like articles about it in terms of, I mean, obviously you can't put the toothpaste back in the tube, it's out there. And in fact, the Running Man.
1:06:47 Sam Fragoso? That's what I'm about to say.
1:06:48 Speaker 04 Well, I mean, this is what's crazy is that there is a scene in the 1972 book where Ben Richards makes a tape and the network re-edited to make him say something that he didn't. So they manipulate his image. And of course, you know, in the new film, we take the ball and run with it. And there's that whole strand about the idea that they can just manipulate the show and, you know, the public's response to somebody, what they're saying, what they're doing, create a villain narrative for them that doesn't necessarily exist. So I don't know. I mean, I feel like that there's two different things. I mean, there's things about machine learning where it's essentially number crunching, that are making some people's jobs easier.
1:07:31 Speaker 04 But anything where you're using other people's artwork to create new artwork, it is inherently generic if it's just like an amalgam of other people's work. So I can't get that excited about it. And all you can do is, I mean, I don't know where things are going to go. All you can do, not just as a director, but as a producer. Is employ humans. I don't know what the other answer is.
1:07:55 Sam Fragoso? Have you tried it?
1:07:55 Speaker 04 No, I mean, only in terms of chat G P T is like a sort of, you know, when you go on Google and the Google Gemini thing comes up, it's always wrong.
1:08:03 Sam Fragoso? Yeah, it's like.
1:08:04 Speaker 04 And chat G P T is frequently wrong when you ask it a question.
1:08:07 Sam Fragoso? It's wrong about very basic things. Yeah. Daniel Kwan, one half of the team that made everything everywhere all at once. Both of them are inspired by your work. I think your work is a clear antecedent for for things that they're doing.
1:08:19 Speaker 04 I'm flattered by that.
1:08:20 Sam Fragoso? Daniel said in the Hollywood Reporter, we have to understand that A I is fundamentally incompatible with our institutions, both on a global scale, but also within our industry. A I is going to blow through our systems and our institutions in a way that they cannot handle. And so we have to collectively upgrade those institutions to systems.
1:08:40 Speaker 04 I mean, I I think it's not even like it's around the corner. It's already happening, but I think it's very worrying because a lot of people are gonna, the jobs are just not going to exist, but you can already see it happening. And it's, you know, that phrase, the insittaining, like people talk about the internet of like just things that used to work well. Things are not getting better. Most like websites don't work as well as they used to. They just get kind of like clogged up or they're just not as user friendly. But look at all of the customer service things that are run by A I. You just don't talk to humans anymore and it's kind of bullshit. I I think so much of it is about cost cutting. So much of it is about the idea of like, why is there a Tilly Norwood?
1:09:26 Speaker 04 The only reason to have Tilly Norwood is so somebody doesn't have to pay Lily Collins. That's basically it. There's no real reason to work with her. It's just like she's she's cheap.
1:09:34 Sam Fragoso? And does anything about your experience working with these institutions tell you that they won't go towards a cost cutting measure?
1:09:41 Speaker 04 No, I mean, of course, there's a concern, you know, and I think there's something where, I don't know, people kind of have to put their foot down, but it's like you can see it happening on streamers where these these fake bands.
1:09:52 Sam Fragoso? Right.
1:09:52 Speaker 04 And fake songs.
1:09:53 Sam Fragoso? You seem alarmed but not frightened.
1:09:55 Speaker 04 I think the thing is, is that what can one do? Like, keep employing artists? I don't know. I don't really know what the answer is. And it is definitely disturbing. And, um, you know, also, I think that guilds and there's had to be some kind of safeguards to kind of like intellectual property. Unfortunately, I think that ship may have already sailed. It's it's it's sort of terrifying, you know?
1:10:20 Sam Fragoso? All right, after one last break, the end of my conversation with Edgar Wright.
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1:12:35 Sam Fragoso? You do have a new movie that's gonna be out nationwide. It's like a classic, old school, action movie in theaters. How do you feel about people returning to the cinemas again? Do you feel that exhibition's gonna turn back around? As someone who's made movies that are especially great in an audience, as this new film is.
1:12:56 Speaker 04 Thank you. Well, I mean, I hope so. I think, you know, I've never stopped being an audience member. One of the things that's really important is to still be a customer. Sometimes you see people in the industry who, once they kind of achieve a certain level of success, sort of never mix with the public again and only sort of like watch things at industry screenings, you know? But I do like to still go to the cinema because I do want to sort of not only to be nostalgic for my youth as a sort of film fan, but also to kind of like watch it like most people watch movies at the cinema. And with the pluses and minuses that come from that. Minus is too many adverts, guys, come on. It doesn't need half an hour of pre-show. I love trailers. I love trailers.
1:13:40 Speaker 04 What I don't need is an advert for the cinema I'm already in. You're preaching to the choir when they say, "Come to the big screen." I said, "I'm fucking here. Tell the people outside to come to the big screen. Don't tell me, I'm fucking bought a ticket already. Put the fucking film on. Don't show me a second advert for the cinema. I'm already sitting right here, guys."
1:14:00 Sam Fragoso? Just to be clear, you want to end the podcast sounding like Larry David?
1:14:05 Speaker 04 Sure, I love Larry David. No, I mean, I don't mind trailers. I like trailers. I'm happy with that. Fifteen minutes of trailers, great.
1:14:12 Sam Fragoso? Okay, I agree.
1:14:12 Speaker 04 Please, I don't need like adverts for the actual cinema I'm sitting in, please.
1:14:16 Sam Fragoso? But that's what I'm trying to get at is, I'm trying to help you out. I'm trying to do a good job for you, man.
1:14:23 Speaker 04 I appreciate it.
1:14:23 Sam Fragoso? Okay.
1:14:24 Speaker 04 I love you.
1:14:25 Sam Fragoso? Thank you.
1:14:26 Speaker 04 You know what? This table feels a lot smaller now. I think sort of like it's, I don't feel the distance anymore, right?
1:14:32 Sam Fragoso? That's true. I do feel closer.
1:14:34 Speaker 04 No, I feel closer too. We've stopped being Bond and Bond villain at this point.
1:14:38 Sam Fragoso? No, we're just bonded together.
1:14:40 Speaker 04 Oh, yes.
1:14:42 Sam Fragoso? Okay, last question.
1:14:44 Speaker 04 It's not gonna get any better than that.
1:14:47 Sam Fragoso? God, we sure hope it will. The 14 year old that read The Running Man.
1:14:51 Speaker 04 Yes.
1:14:52 Sam Fragoso? Was same kid who later that year watched that Sam Raimi interview, where you saw a director from Michigan make a movie out of nothing.
1:15:01 Speaker 04 Get a press quote from Stephen King on his poster.
1:15:03 Sam Fragoso? That, that, yes, which you now have, and that spoke to you coming from Wells, where you did not have connections. You didn't have an abundance of family wealth. When you think back on that kid and now the current filmmaker you are, has the reason why you wanted to make movies, the reason you still continue to make movies, how has it changed?
1:15:24 Speaker 04 I think it hasn't changed. I think I'm still sort of chasing the high of when I watch a movie that I love. To me, you know, as a film fan, there's no better feeling than just being completely immersed in a cinematic experience. So it hasn't really changed. I mean, the thing is, is that I'm lucky enough to be able to make some of those movies. And if I hadn't made the movie, I want to be the biggest fan of it, you know? If I hadn't made this movie, I want to be the perfect viewer. So I don't think anything has changed, really. I mean, the business has changed and, you know, I did feel making this movie, I was like, wow, I guess I'm not 25 anymore. This is exhausting, but the ambition is the same. And also like knowing what the business is like,
1:16:07 Speaker 04 I also feel very grateful to be doing what I'm doing. I mean, if I kind of complain at all, it's, I'm only half joking because like, I'm very aware, especially how tough it's been in this business in the last five years, that to actually make a movie, I felt like more than ever as an employer, as well as a director, is that you're employing, and to speak to AI, you're employing hundreds of human beings to work on a movie. And that's really important. So I feel the kind of weight of that more than I ever have done before. But mostly I'm just grateful to still be doing what I'm doing.
1:16:42 Sam Fragoso? All films are Herculean efforts on the parts of humans. And I just want to congratulate you on the new one.
1:16:49 Speaker 04 Thank you.
1:16:50 Sam Fragoso? And best of luck on the next one.
1:16:52 Speaker 04 Thank you. I really enjoyed this.
1:16:54 Sam Fragoso? Edgar Wright, until next time.
1:16:56 Speaker 04 Thank you very much.
1:17:27 Sam Fragoso? And that's our show. If you enjoyed today's conversation with Edgar Wright, be sure to share the program on social media, tag us at Talk Easy Pod. If you want to go above and beyond, you can leave a review on Apple Podcasts. You can also leave us five stars on Spotify. All these things really does help us continue making the show each and every Sunday. I want to give a special thanks this week to Greg Longstreet, Carly Osborne, Adam McKay, Brad Gaskell, and our guest Edgar Wright. His new film, The Running Man, opens in theaters this coming Friday, November 14. For more info, visit TalkEasyPod.com.
1:18:08 Sam Fragoso? For more episodes with other great filmmakers, I'd recommend Steven Soderbergh, Ari Aster, Ava DuVernay, and Richard Linklater. To hear those and more Lemonada Podcasts, listen on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you like to listen. You can also subscribe to Lemonada Premium for exclusive bonus content and ad-free listening. Just hit the subscribe button on Apple or head to LemonadaPremium.com. Talk Easy is produced by Caroline Reebok. Our executive producer is Janix Bravo. Today's talk was edited by Finn Nowlin and Corey Etad. It was mixed by Andrew Vastola. It was engineered by Chris Hines out of Hyper Object Industries
1:18:51 Sam Fragoso? in Los Angeles, California. Our video comes courtesy of Green Gaskell and Alex Leo Garcia. Our music is by Dylan Peck. Illustrations, Priscilla Shannon. Research assistant, Kiki Georgia. This episode was made in partnership with the good people at Lemonada Media. And I'm Sam Forcoso. Thank you for listening to Talk Easy. I'll see you back here next Sunday with a brand new episode. Until then, stay safe and so long.
1:19:36 Speaker 10 I'm Dan Heath. On What It's Like to Be, I interview people about their jobs. Here's a married couple that drives a long haul truck together.
1:19:44 Speaker 11 We backed up and they loaded fresh dead rats.
1:19:47 Speaker 10 I mean, how many rats would you guess were back there?
1:19:49 Speaker 11 There were 32,000 pounds of them.
1:19:52 Speaker 10 32,000 pounds of frozen dead rats.
1:19:56 Speaker 11 That's it.
1:19:58 Speaker 10 Find out what it's like to be a long haul trucker, a couples therapist, or an FBI agent, all on the podcast What It's Like to Be.
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1:20:48 Speaker 12 avoid echo chambers, and expand your worldview." So go to groundnews.com/rz. That's G-R-O-U-N-D-N-E-W-S.com/rz for 40% off unlimited access vantage plan. Get it yourself or gift it to someone who'd rather know than not. Use my link, groundnews.com/rz, so you get the discount and they know I sent you. If you're a fan of learning all sides of history, then Ground News is for you. One more time, groundnews.com/rz.
Previous Novelist Salman Rushdie at ‘The Eleventh Hour’ Next Judd Apatow’s Guide to Failure and Success (Fail Better with David Duchovny) Page updated October 31, 2026 · transcript and summary are machine-generated