Pod Insights British Scandal Julian Assange | Enemy of the State | 2 About this episode An alliance with international press turns Assange into a public figure. But soon, he ends up on the front pages for all the wrong reasons.
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Transcript Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:00 Alice Levine? Audible subscribers can listen to all episodes of British Scandal ad-free right now. Join Audible today by downloading the Audible app.
0:12 Matt Forde? Alice, what are you reading?
0:13 Alice Levine? Actually, I'm reading some reviews of your tour, and they are glowing. This one says, "Great material."
0:19 Matt Forde? Oh, I hate it when they describe what I do as material. What I do is weave art.
0:24 Alice Levine? I don't really feel like that's what they meant by it. But anyway, this one says, "Really funny delivery," like several Ls.
0:30 Matt Forde? I can't handle this sort of negative press about my work. I mean, even the word "delivery."
0:38 Matt Forde? I am a performer. I don't work for Yodel.
0:41 Alice Levine? Somehow, we're interpreting these really differently. I mean, this one couldn't be better. "Top-notch impressions."
0:49 Matt Forde? Impressions, like I'm some sort of jester fool. Impressions? I don't impersonate people. I embody them. I capture their soul. I'm a conduit for existence itself.
1:01 Alice Levine? I don't know if your expectations are a little bit out of whack. I mean, these are all five stars.
1:06 Matt Forde? I mean, there you have it, five stars. Everyone gets five stars. Find another star if you like it so much. In fact, you'll have to find another star because I'm cancelling the rest of my tour. Someone else can do it.
1:16 Alice Levine? Ah, okay. You know the business better than me.
1:19 Matt Forde? Finally, a compliment.
1:23 Matt Forde? November 2010, The Frontline Club, London. Julian Assange adjusts his curly brunette wig, brushes down his knee-length mauve dress and checks himself in the mirror. He turns to the middle-aged man nearby, shakes his head. "I look exactly like me, just in a wig and a dress." The man studies him, then waves his hand dismissively. "From a distance, it'll do." Julian shrugs and shakes his friend's hand. Then he heads down the building's back staircase and yanks open the door of the service exit. He looks round the narrow street.
2:02 Matt Forde? Seconds later, a battered red car pulls up. Julian dives into the backseat, hisses at the young driver. "Go, now!"
2:12 Matt Forde? An hour passes before Julian risks sitting up. When he does, he sees they're speeding down the M11. Julian steals a glance out of the window. The nearest car is some distance behind, but Julian stays on it, gritted with anxiety. He can't see beyond the gleam of its headlights, or make out the face of the driver. His chest tightens. He's struggling to breathe.
2:39 Matt Forde? "Find a lay-by, pull over, then kill the lights."
2:44 Alice Levine? "That doesn't sound safe."
2:45 Matt Forde? "Yeah, leave the lights on."
2:46 Alice Levine? "Hazards, if anything."
2:48 Matt Forde? "And then, have you got one of those little triangular red lights that you could just put maybe fifty paces behind the car, just in case?"
2:54 Alice Levine? "That's just good practice."
2:58 Matt Forde? The driver does as instructed. Julian tries to calm down, convince himself that he's being over-cautious. But he's not sure he can trust anyone now. Even the driver of this car could be a plant. "Okay, drive on."
3:16 Matt Forde? Two hours later, Julian is peering out at the flatlands of East Anglia. Soon, the disused factories disappear, replaced by quaint village shops, a small post office, a cosy-looking pub, and a sign that reads, "Welcome to Ellingham." The car skids into a long driveway and stops beside a grand Georgian manor house. A smiling housekeeper appears in the doorway. "Mr. Assange, welcome to Ellingham Hall." Julian gets out of the car and dashes inside, nearly knocking her over.
3:52 Matt Forde? He pulls off his wig and coat, pulls open every door in the house, searches the whole place. No one there. Julian finally feels his heartbeat steady. For now, he can keep working, ensure that the explosive leaked data he's sitting on gets out there into the world.
4:13 Matt Forde? But he knows that this new hideout won't fool the CIA for long. Their equipment is far too sophisticated, their teams of experts endless, and their thirst for revenge is growing by the day. The dark forces are closing in on Julian, and he fears if he can't fight back, he's a dead man walking.
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5:29 Speaker 03 Hi, I'm Lindsey Graham, the host of American History Tellers. In our latest series, US Army Lieutenant Adolphus Greeley and 24 other men embark on a scientific expedition to the Arctic in 1881. But despite achieving several triumphs of discovery, the men will soon face tragedy. Listen to American History Tellers on Audible or wherever you get your podcasts.
5:51 Matt Forde? I'm Matt Ford.
5:53 Alice Levine? And I'm Alice Levine.
5:54 Matt Forde? And this is British Scandal.
6:08 Matt Forde? Okay, Alice, simple question. At this point in the story, what are your thoughts on Julian Assange?
6:14 Alice Levine? Hmm, hmm, not a simple question at all. But at this point in the story, some prose. He's braving the wrath of every major world power, essentially. He's sticking it to the man, if you will, exposing some terrible things that are going on globally. And he seems to be doing that based on a strong ideological steer.
6:36 Alice Levine? However, the cons are that that strong ideological steer, he's willing to throw out the window along with other principles, kind of for personal gain. He thinks an awful lot of himself, which generally seems to be getting in the way. And also creepy.
6:52 Matt Forde? Yeah, I think you've pretty much summed up someone who, I think it's fair to say, is one of the more complicated British scandal characters.
6:57 Alice Levine? Yeah, right, because you want to root for somebody who is exposing wrongdoing and is doing that from a sort of neutral place, where the greater good is their only motivation. But with Julian, you just can't always trust that that is the priority.
7:16 Matt Forde? Yeah, and on top of that, I mean, his hair.
7:19 Alice Levine? The hair.
7:21 Matt Forde? It's an issue for me. So in the last episode, we saw how Julian used Private Manning's leak to rise to fame and power. And now he's faced with a choice: work with the mainstream media, become mainstream, or stick to his deeply held values, continue to do things on his own. What do you think he's going to do?
7:39 Alice Levine? One of those roads leads to more notoriety, more celebrity, more opportunities personally. And one of them would possibly mean we'd never heard of him. So I'm going to go with option one, please, Carol.
7:54 Matt Forde? Well, you may well have guessed correctly. This is episode two, Enemy of the State. 21st of June 2010, Hotel Leopold, Brussels, Belgium. Julian sips his orange juice, leans back into his soft leather chair and waits for the reporter sitting opposite to make him an offer. But to Julian's annoyance, Nick Davies gives nothing away. I'm sorry, Julian. We can't discuss this properly until I know what sort of leaked data we're talking about. It's just not how we do things at The Guardian. Julian watches Davies scratch his graying beard, looks down at the droplets of bourbon hanging off it.
8:38 Matt Forde? This guy is everything Julian detests about the mainstream media. It's time to wipe the smug smile off his face. Okay, how about over a hundred thousand classified documents outlining every single US military incident during the Afghan and Iraq wars? Julian enjoys watching Davies' eyes widen.
8:59 Matt Forde? Kill or capture targets, what really goes on in Guantanamo, the real figures of dead civilian targets. Davies sits back. Fuck. Julian allows himself a smile. This first lot of documents, what he likes to call the war logs, aren't even everything he got from Private Manning. He's also sitting on 250,000 classified cables between US embassies across the world. Cables that show what the US really thinks about countries it calls friends. Publishing their content could lead to a full-scale diplomatic crisis.
9:37 Alice Levine? That's interesting, because that feels like two very different types of intel. One is literally life and death, and the other one sounds like gossip.
9:47 Matt Forde? Yeah, and the life and death stuff, you can argue a case for public interest. The gossip stuff, that doesn't really need to see the light of day, but I know which one I'd rather read.
10:00 Matt Forde? For now, Julian doesn't trust Davies enough to reveal his whole hand. He waits for the reporter to respond.
10:08 Matt Forde? Okay, Julian, okay, this is big. But the way I see it, publish these and you're facing four separate lines of attack. There's legal. Washington will attempt to crush you in the courts. Then there's technological. They, or their proxies, will try and bring down the website. Julian rolls his eyes. He's not a goddamn amateur. But Davies continues. There's physical. Julian's thrown. Physical? Davies eyeballs him gravely. Julian, do you seriously think you can publish this kind of stuff without the US branding you an enemy of the state? Julian expected the Secret Services to start monitoring him. But an enemy of the state?
10:52 Alice Levine? I mean, this feels naive for Julian.
10:55 Matt Forde? If you're going to effectively go to war with the American government, you should expect them to unleash every kind of hell they're capable of unleashing on you. It's a bit naive to think, okay, so I'll leak all this stuff, they'll be annoyed for a bit, they'll probably get over it.
11:10 Alice Levine? There'll be a cease and desist, they'll ask me to shut the website down.
11:12 Matt Forde? Do you know what? We might even end up becoming friends. I'll be like Frank Abingale, I'll end up working for him.
11:19 Matt Forde? Then there's PR. They'll flip the narrative, just like they did with collateral murder. But this time, they won't just discredit you. They'll launch a dirty information war, accuse you of collaborating with terrorists. Julian jumps in. So what's to stop them accusing The Guardian of the same thing? Davies grins. What I'm suggesting is bigger than The Guardian. It's a multi-jurisdictional alliance between four or five major publications and wikileaks. We publish the material simultaneously around the world. Get it the international outcry it deserves.
11:56 Alice Levine? What he's proposing in scale and in approach feels unprecedented. I mean, the collaboration between several outlets. Obviously, journalists feel that the story leads them and that the story comes first. But they're also working for these commercial enterprises that need to be ahead on breaking the news. Nick Davies must have thought this was absolutely colossal.
12:24 Matt Forde? Yeah, he's prepared to sacrifice exclusivity, which we know journalists really prize, in order to get this story the maximum impact that it deserves. He's really going for it. I mean, surely at some point, he's going to be thinking about merch, a stadium tour. He'll even get a cut of the bar in the car park. Julian feels the hairs on the back of his neck spring to life. It'll be impossible for the US government to dismiss the story or single you out as some crazed anarchist.
12:54 Matt Forde? Julian's distracted by the buzz of his phone in his pocket. He eyes Daniel's name on the screen. He knows what he'd say, that this goes against everything WikiLeaks is meant to be. An alternative to big media, an independent force for good. But he can't stop listening to Davies. When the US launches its PR war, we'll put you on the moral high ground. So high you'll need an oxygen mask. You'll be up there with Mother Teresa and Nelson fucking Mandela.
13:22 Alice Levine? Don't be telling Julian Assange that. Do not be saying, "We are going to put you on a pedestal."
13:28 Matt Forde? Because on some level, I think Assange should be going, "I mean, if anything, it's bigger than Jesus."
13:36 Matt Forde? Julian looks at his phone again, his head spinning. He doesn't have to trust these newspapers with everything. He can start with the war logs. And then, if they work well together, he will think about giving them the cables. He can still do this his way. He kills the call from Daniel. Julian reaches forward and offers Davies his hand. He feels a rush of adrenaline as Davies shakes it. WikiLeaks is going global. And the US government isn't going to know what hit it.
14:13 Matt Forde? 26th of July 2010, 4am. Guardian HQ, King's Cross, London. Mick Davies pushes open the door labelled "Project Room, Private and Confidential." He enters what he and his team now think of as the War Room. Inside, reporters from New York, Berlin and Islamabad frantically sort through data alongside fact-checkers and website specialists. He swells with pride. It's been an operational nightmare pulling this together in time for The Guardian, The New York Times, Le Monde and Germany's Der Spiegel to publish the war logs together.
14:53 Alice Levine? This is crazy.
14:54 Matt Forde? These are big publications, so it's not just any old paper in these countries. They're going to the biggest.
15:01 Alice Levine? These are the authorities.
15:02 Matt Forde? It's like the Champions League of newspapers.
15:07 Matt Forde? Now they're on the home straight, ready to drop the story in two hours' time. Davies takes a swig of his black coffee as the online editor rushes over. Nick, we've got a problem. The redactions we asked WikiLeaks to make on the files they're publishing haven't been completed. Davies feels a knot in his stomach as his eyes move across to Julian. He admires Julian's commitment, he's here 24/7, but those redactions have to be a priority. If they don't remove every name mentioned in the documents, Afghan sources could be identified. He strides over to Julian, who's advising a designer on The Guardian's front page.
15:48 Matt Forde? Its headline reads: Afghanistan War Logs: Massive Leak of Secret Files Exposes the Truth of Occupation. Full story pages 1 to 14. Julian, WikiLeaks can't publish any unredacted files. If we put some of our people on it, you'll only be delayed by... Julian cuts in: No, WikiLeaks will publish in full, as planned, redacted or not. The knot in Davies' stomach tightens. You'd be putting lives in jeopardy. Afghans and Iraqis who collaborated with US troops, aid agency staff, journalists. Davies eyeballs Julian, whose brow furrows. Bill, they're informants.
16:33 Matt Forde? If they get killed, they've got it coming to them. They deserve it.
16:40 Alice Levine? This is wild, so mercenary.
16:43 Matt Forde? They're the people who have effectively given them this information. It's their data that he's going to leak and he's not going to protect them. Julian Assange has disputed saying this, but Nick Davies, of course, respected journalist, insists that it's true, but it means there is a debate over whether he did say that.
17:01 Matt Forde? The room falls silent. Davies feels sick as he takes in Julian's ice-cold expression. He genuinely doesn't seem to get that this isn't okay. Julian, think where it would take the story if somebody dies. It won't be about the Iraq War anymore. It'll be about WikiLeaks behaving irresponsibly. He holds Julian's gaze. You work for The Guardian. WikiLeaks is my call, and mine alone. Davies darkens as he watches Julian walk away.
17:38 Matt Forde? Two hours later, he sits in front of his monitor as his team count down to the publication. Five, four, three, two, one. He feels a pat on his shoulder. A champagne flute is thrust into his hand as Afghanistan War Logs appears live on The Guardian's homepage. He knows this should be the high point of his career, but he doesn't feel like celebrating. Davies turns his gaze back to Julian, who's beaming from ear to ear. He vows that from now on, he's not going to give an inch. If Julian Assange missteps again, he's going to take him on and win. The consequences, if he doesn't, could be deadly.
18:27 Matt Forde? Later that day, Camp Harifjan, Kuwait. Private Manning sways, weak from hunger, as a guard pulls them from the eight-foot-by-eight-foot cage they've been imprisoned in day and night, for God only knows how long. Time to go, Manning. Move it. Manning is enveloped in darkness as a hood is thrown over their head. Then Manning's flung on what feels like a cold floor. There's the sound of an engine starting, a sudden lurch forward. They're moving.
18:58 Matt Forde? It feels like hours have passed when the vehicle comes to a halt. The hood is pulled off, and they adjust their eyes to take in a large hangar, where half a dozen masters in arms wait behind a military aircraft. One of them steps forward and slaps leg irons around Manning's ankles. Another fixes cuffs around their wrists and pulls a chain to their waist. Manning begins to shake uncontrollably. "Am I going to Guantanamo?" One of the guards snorts. Manning's too tired, too scared to push further. As they're bundled onto the plane, they have no idea what gruesome fate awaits.
19:39 Matt Forde? Manning is still shaking almost twenty-four hours later, as they're led roughly from the plane and into an empty ante-chamber marked Customs. "Do you have anything to declare?" Manning blinks in disbelief, not quite understanding the question. "Uh, no." Only when Manning exits the small airport, breathes in the dust-free air, takes in the number plates of the cars, can they believe it. Back on American soil, the worst is over.
20:11 Matt Forde? Less than an hour later, they arrive in Quantico, the Marine Corps base in Northern Virginia. A grinning gunnery sergeant greets them. "Manning, you're my first celebrity. You're all over Fox News." But there's no time to think about it, as they're led into a clinical investigation room where two suited FBI agents await.
20:32 Matt Forde? "Sit down, Private Manning." Trembling, Manning does as instructed. The agent slides a printout of a New York Times front page across the table. The headline reads, "The War Logs: Classified Military Documents Offer Views of the Wars in Iraq and Afghanistan." Manning's heart races. There's something about seeing it in black and white that makes the gravity of the situation sink in. The other agent takes out a file. "Private Manning, we have detailed messages between you and a known hacker in which you admit to leaking thousands of classified government files, many of which were published yesterday by several news outlets."
21:15 Matt Forde? Manning's heart thuds.
21:18 Matt Forde? I... I thought if people could just see that... The second agent interrupts. We wanna help you, Private. The agent smiles, then pushes the file across the desk. For the tape, I'm showing Private Manning a transcript of an online conversation with an admin account registered to WikiLeaks. The agent leans closer. How long were you in direct communication with Julian Assange? Manning's mouth goes bone-dry. I wasn't. I mean, I did leak data to the site, but I never... Did Assange give you a list of data that he wanted? Manning frantically shakes their head. No. I decided what to send. I... The agent leans in closer, snarls.
22:03 Matt Forde? Private Manning, I don't think you know how much trouble you're in. We're not just talking about theft of government property. This is espionage and conspiracy. You're looking at ninety years in prison, maybe even the chair.
22:19 Matt Forde? Manning feels like throwing up. I, uh, I wanna speak to a lawyer. The agent dresses the guard. Take Private Manning to administrative segregation. Manning's dragged to their feet. Please. No. Everyone in the army knows that administrative segregation is a form of torture. Manning's heard the horror stories: being watched over every moment, ordered to stand 23 hours a day, checked on so often that sleep is impossible.
22:51 Matt Forde? Manning realizes being home means nothing. The US government is going to drag this out, make an example of them. All Manning can do is remember they did this for a cause far bigger than any one person, and vow not to break, no matter what.
23:12 Matt Forde? Twenty seventh of July, 2010. CNN recording studio, London. Julian nervously fiddles with the mic attached to his lapel. He's about to appear on one of America's biggest chat shows, Larry King Live, via satellite. He watches King's introduction on a monitor, wipes his sweaty palms on his jeans. The recently released war logs have dominated world news, catapulting the activities of the US military into the headlines. Julian's nerves are replaced by a swell of pride. He straightens up. Mr Assange, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs, said today WikiLeaks may already have on their hands the blood of some young soldier, or that of an Afghan family. How do you respond to that?
23:59 Matt Forde? Julian feels himself tense up. He didn't expect King to be so confrontational. Well, political affairs are not predictable, but we don't see anything here of tactical significance or that could seriously endanger... King cuts him off. A US commander in Afghanistan, Major General Campbell, states, "Anytime there's a leak of classified material, it has the potential to harm the military folks working out here every day." Are you saying he's wrong? Julian feels his fists clench as King's eyes bore into his. What I'm saying is, the need for this information to be made public is greater than any risk to those... But once again, King interrupts. What about the safety of your leakers?
24:42 Matt Forde? It's been reported that Private Manning, the intelligence analyst who admitted to leaking this data, was flown back to the US today and could face execution if found guilty of espionage. Julian feels like he's been punched in the gut.
24:55 Alice Levine? I don't know if it's because Assange thinks that he's doing a victory lap and so is completely unprepared, or if King's going particularly hard, or if we're just not used to seeing this kind of grilling on television anymore, but this feels really electric.
25:11 Matt Forde? It does, and the fact that he's surprised really exposes his naivety, because if you're going on a news channel like CNN, you should expect to be cross-examined about the ethics of your role in all this.
25:25 Alice Levine? And all of the questions are the first questions you'd ask.
25:29 Matt Forde? That's it, these are line one, page one questions. We're not even getting to the supplementaries yet.
25:35 Matt Forde? Well, we specialise in, instead of verifying the sources, we verify the documents. This is how we've been able to protect our sources. But Private Manning hasn't been protected. Julian's head spins. Sweat prickles his brow. The heat from the light shining into his face starts to burn. We, we wanna get maximum impact for the risks taken. Well, let's see what our next guest thinks of that. Julian clenches his fists, wondering who they're gonna stitch him up with now. But his jaw drops when a familiar face appears on screen. We're joined by Daniel Ellsberg, the man responsible for the most influential leak in US history, the Pentagon Papers.
26:20 Matt Forde? Daniel, what's your view of Julian Assange?
26:23 Alice Levine? Oh my god, this is his hero. This is the guy that really sowed the seeds for what he's gone on to do.
26:30 Matt Forde? This is who Julian wanted to emulate, this is who he's based his whole career on. And now this guy's being asked on live TV beamed around the world, what he thinks of him. Julian's whole body goes rigid. It feels like time has stopped as he waits for the answer. I believe his judgment here was bang on, Larry. I wish there had been more exposure of the mess of these wars earlier. Julian stays fixed on the screen, stunned. Did his hero really just endorse him on CNN? Assange hasn't put a foot wrong. He's handled all of this correctly. As King turns to Julian for a response, he struggles to contain his excitement.
27:12 Matt Forde? Thanks, Daniel, it's, it's great and now we have your support. Julian glows with pride as King moves on again. Joining us now is CNN national security analyst and bestselling author, Peter Bergen. Peter, what do you make of all this? I think it's a lot of hype. These so-called secret documents contain almost no new information. The Pentagon Papers were seismic. This isn't. Julian comes back to earth with a thud. He wants to jump in, fight his corner, but he realises his camera has already been switched off. Fuckers. He throws down the mic, full of renewed determination. Screw this guy, and screw the military.
27:56 Matt Forde? If they want seismic, he'll give it to them. It's time to pull out his ace card. Once he oversees the publication of the biggest cache of classified leaked data ever, the US government won't know what's hit them. Julian may not be the next Elsberg yet, but he soon will be.
28:23 Speaker 04 A trucker merges onto the I-10 in New Orleans. He checks his mirrors. The lane is clear. And then, boom, impact. A pickup truck, seemingly out of nowhere, scrapes down the side of his 18-wheeler, multiple passengers inside. One man flees the scene, and the driver of the pickup, he doesn't seem all that upset. It didn't feel like a regular accident, because it wasn't. Across the city, truckers are getting sideswiped, all on the same stretch of the same freeway. And behind many of the cases is one person, a Hollywood stunt woman turned personal injury lawyer named Vanessa Moda. This podcast is a story about fake accidents that lead to real consequences, and a scheme that ends in betrayal and murder.
29:08 Speaker 04 Listen to Over My Dead Body: Operation Sideswipe wherever you get your podcasts. Audible subscribers can binge all episodes early and ad-free right now. Join Audible in the Audible app or by subscribing on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.
29:23 Matt Forde? Alice, have you ever wondered why the Mini is so small?
29:27 Alice Levine? The skirt or the Magnum?
29:29 Matt Forde? Well, I meant the iconic British car, because in 1956, Britain's oil supply was suddenly cut off. Petrol rationing was brought in, and the car industry was scrambling around for a vehicle that hardly used any fuel. Enter the Mini.
29:43 Alice Levine? Interesting, but actually not technically British Scandal series material.
29:48 Matt Forde? Well, the reason they had to save petrol is because the Prime Minister started a war and lied about why.
29:54 Alice Levine? Okay, scandal siren going off.
29:56 Matt Forde? I'm Matt Ford.
29:57 Alice Levine? And I'm Alice Levine.
29:58 Matt Forde? And our latest British Scandal series involves a secret meeting in a French villa, a Prime Minister running on amphetamines.
30:04 Alice Levine? An Egyptian president that everyone fancied, the end of the British Empire, and at the heart of it, a canal.
30:11 Matt Forde? This is the story of the Suez Plot.
30:14 Alice Levine? Follow British Scandal wherever you get your podcasts, or listen early and ad-free on Audible.
30:32 Matt Forde? August 2010, Stockholm, Sweden.
30:37 Matt Forde? Julian fights his way through the crowd outside the lecture hall, where he's just given a talk about free speech to the Swedish Social Democrats.
30:49 Matt Forde? A young woman thrusts a teddy into Julian's hands. He turns to face the producer and cameraman, who've been shadowing him all week for a documentary. How does all this feel, Julian? It feels surreal. Julian means it. Elsberg's endorsement has sent his profile stratospheric, and he's taken to the publicity like a duck to water. Julian jumps into his waiting car, where a volunteer runs through his diary. Channel 4's been calling again, they wanna do a special report. You've also had interest from The Washington Post.
31:24 Matt Forde? It's Nick Davies. Nick, how are you? For fuck's sake, Julian! You promised me I'd have the Cablegate files by today! We can't work out how to use the content if we don't know exactly what it is. Julian smiles. I wanna rethink our strategy, Nick. Maybe bring in more people. No, that would water down our exclusive. Julian darkens. These are my exclusives, Nick, my cables. I get to say who has access. There's a long silence. Then we're done. I won't work with someone I can't trust, and I doubt any other publication will either. Julian feels a stab of panic.
32:09 Matt Forde? The Guardian has given him reams of coverage, defended him robustly. He doesn't want to lose its support. He's about to hit the call return button when his phone rings again. It's the paper's editor, Alan Rusbridger. Alan, listen, I'm sorry. But Rusbridger cuts in, sounding panicked. I know, I know, Nick can get worked up. Just because he won't deal with you, it doesn't mean the paper's out. What is it that you want? He stares out of the window in shock as they pass the Royal Palace. Rusbridger is choosing him over his own reporter. He takes a deep breath, then speaks with a newfound authority.
32:51 Matt Forde? We go with the same media partners as before, but this time, the documentary team that's following me also has access to the leaked data, along with Channel 4, and maybe more international newspapers.
33:04 Matt Forde? There's a long pause. Julian, I, I can't just... Julian bristles. He opens up his laptop, quickly taps out a password, then emails a file. Open your inbox, Alan. Julian waits for Rusbridger to read what he's sent. Just three of the 250,000 cables. One contains devastating criticism of the UK's operations in Afghanistan by US commanders. Another features allegations of corruption in their host country by US embassy staff in China. The third names Saudi donors as the biggest financiers of various terror groups.
33:42 Alice Levine? Okay, so I was looking for more like Marion in the accounts is snogging Tony from HR. This is not the gossip that I was led to believe it was.
33:54 Matt Forde? No, this is on a far grander scale, although it'd be nice if we mixed some of the gossip in there. I say what, I'll send you three. Two are of severe geopolitical importance, and the other one, you won't believe what happened at Staff Drinks the other night.
34:09 Matt Forde? Julian smiles as he hears Rusbridger whisper. Jesus.
34:14 Speaker 05 Christ!
34:15 Matt Forde? That's just a taste. Do you want the rest or not?
34:19 Speaker 05 Okay, I'm in. Let's do it.
34:23 Matt Forde? Julian hangs up, beaming from ear to ear. He's finally calling all the shots. He's untouchable, and that's exactly how it's going to stay.
34:37 Matt Forde? 21st of August 2010, Guardian HQ, London.
34:43 Matt Forde? In the war room, Alan Rusbridger grins as his chief reporter reads him another excerpt from the latest cables Julian has sent. This one's from the US ambassador. He describes President Medvedev as playing Robin to PM Putin's Batman. Rusbridger chuckles. Another describes French President Sarkozy as thin-skinned and a naked emperor.
35:04 Alice Levine? Okay, this is the sort of name-calling, tit-for-tat that we had originally thought some of the cables might contain.
35:10 Matt Forde? Yes, exactly. This is what we really want. What are they saying about Cameron? Is it wrong that I almost prefer the gossip to the serious stuff?
35:18 Alice Levine? We called it.
35:18 Matt Forde? Alan, it's not wrong at all. Welcome to the real world. Another reporter shouts across the room. Boss, you need to see this. Rusbridger heads over to the reporter, who directs his eyes to the headline on his screen. It screams: WikiLeaks Editor Accused of Rape. Is this a joke? Rusbridger feels the blood drain from his face as he reads the story, which claims Julian is wanted by the Swedish police following accusations of sexual assault by two women. An arrest warrant has already been issued in Sweden, and the police there are urging Julian to return to the country for questioning.
35:59 Matt Forde? Rusbridger immediately grabs his phone and calls Julian, who answers, sounding apoplectic:
36:06 Speaker 05 It's utter bullshit. This is a smear campaign by the CIA.
36:12 Matt Forde? Rusbridger knows the US government is threatening to indict Julian for his alleged involvement with Private Manning. But what Julian's saying sounds fantastical, not to mention convenient.
36:24 Matt Forde? Sure, Julian, but if the Swedish police were involved, we're going to have to get our reporters to... Julian cuts in, more forceful.
36:33 Speaker 05 What? Stitch me up. This is exactly what they want, Alan.
36:38 Matt Forde? I can assure you we'll cover both sides. Rosbringer keeps his tone measured. Who are these women, Julian? Have you even met them?
36:47 Speaker 05 Oh, I dignify this with an explanation. I have two wars to end.
36:53 Matt Forde? Julian? Julian? Rosbringer slams the phone down. Has he given us all the cables? Not yet. The reporter looks concerned, but Rosbringer stays firm. Guilty or innocent, it doesn't affect the content of Cablegate, or the public's right to read the files we have. He pauses. We have to cover this. Let's just make sure we get it right. He'll have his team report these allegations as if it were anyone else, even if it means risking Julian's wrath, and potentially, the exclusive of Rosbringer's career.
37:33 Alice Levine? This was an incredibly sensitive and difficult story to break, anyway, and now the messenger, not just the message, is complicated. He's now potentially a sexual predator. Obviously, we know now that the sexual assault and rape allegations against Julian Assange became a really big part of his story, and also a big part of how he was viewed publicly. But how did those cases unfold?
38:00 Matt Forde? So, he was accused of rape and sexual assault by two separate women in Sweden in 2010. He always denied the allegations, and he and his supporters claimed that the American government was behind them. The Swedish authorities felt there was a case to answer and tried to extradite him. Julian thought if he was extradited to Sweden, he would then be further moved on to America and potentially face the death penalty, which obviously he was keen to avoid. The case was then dropped in 2019, not because the women changed their stories or because the authorities found their accounts any less credible, but purely because the sheer amount of time that had elapsed meant that the likelihood of a conviction had been significantly reduced.
38:41 Matt Forde? September 2010, Paddington, London.
38:46 Matt Forde? Julian breathed the early morning air deep into his lungs.
38:51 Matt Forde? He turns as he hears footsteps. He quickens his pace. He's sure he started to hear clicks on his phone when he makes a call, seen glitches in his browser, and he hasn't had a proper night's sleep for days.
39:06 Matt Forde? He slips down a cobbled muse, reaches the front door of the Front Line Club, the private bar for journalists where he's been camped out while he works through Cablegate. He presses the buzzer, then fumbles for his key.
39:20 Matt Forde? He hears the footsteps again, getting closer.
39:24 Matt Forde? Julian drops the key, bends down to retrieve it. Mr Assange?
39:31 Matt Forde? Julian turns to see a man with a dictaphone standing over him. From the Daily Mail, do you have a comment to make about the Swedish prosecutor's attempt to get an international arrest warrant? Julian burns with anger. No comment. At the sound of the door clicking open, Julian darts inside and races into the club's private study. He's relieved to see the familiar frame of its owner, Vaughan Smith. But taking in the sheepish look on Smith's face, his heart sinks. What now? This is the front page of today's New York Times. Smith turns his laptop round to show Julian. He shakes with anger as he reads. WikiLeaks founder on the run, trailed by notoriety.
40:16 Matt Forde? He almost spits out the text underneath. It's now not just governments that denounce Assange. His own comrades are abandoning him for what they see as erratic and impervious behaviour, and a nearly delusional grandeur unmatched by an awareness that the digital secrets he reveals can have a price in flesh and blood. Julian bangs the laptop shut. The New York Times is meant to be partnering with him and The Guardian on the publication of Cablegate. They should be on his side. Sadly, this is par for the course when one dedicates oneself to a course as important as free speech. I'll get us some tea. Julian forces a smile, glad that loyal assets like Smith understand.
40:57 Matt Forde? But the minute he's alone, he can't resist opening the laptop back up. He furiously clicks from one mainstream news site to another. These allegations and the negativity they're generating isn't just damaging his reputation, it's distracting from what he's trying to achieve with the leaks. He should be focusing on Cablegate, not this defamation blitz. He's sick of these smears, sick of being treated like dirt. He's not some impotent victim. He's a celebrity now, with money and influential friends like Smith. He's Julian fucking Assange. It's time he used his newfound notoriety to take back control of the narrative and be a hero once again.
41:44 Alice Levine? It is important to say that he's in a very privileged position, where he can control the narrative and whatever stance you take on him and this situation, this does echo other cases of very high-profile men accused of sexual assault. And that power structure and those levers that those high-profile men can pull are a huge contributing factor into why women don't come forward. He's somebody who has very, very powerful friends in his corner and he's going to use them.
42:17 Matt Forde? November 2010, Guardian HQ, London. Julian walks through the busy editorial floor. He ignores the looks from other journalists as he reaches Alan Rusbridge's glass-fronted office. Julian smiles at the man beside him, then strides straight in without knocking.
42:36 Matt Forde? Alan, meet my lawyer. Julian feels a frisson of pleasure at Rusbridge's shocked expression. I already told you, Julian, I can't retract any stories that... But Julian cuts in. I don't want you giving any more of my cables to the New York Times.
42:52 Alice Levine? It's interesting how he keeps saying "my cables", this sort of territorial ownership of intel that, yes, he's gathered, but it's not his. And as we know, he's not the only outlet that's breaking it.
43:05 Matt Forde? Yeah, and the people whose cables they actually are are the people who are now in danger.
43:09 Alice Levine? It's a repeated impulse to get the glory, isn't it?
43:14 Matt Forde? Rosbringer places his hands on the table and eyeballs him. We agreed a new deal with the New York Times and they were part of it. Julian ignores him. And unless they run a front page apology for this sleazy hit job, written personally by the editor, I'm taking everything to the Washington Post. You can't do that, it's not in the contract. Julian folds his arms and smiles as his lawyer. Under the circumstances, following the New York Times' coverage of Mr Assange... Rosbringer shakes his head. The New York Times already has every cable we have. The original deal stated we would share them. Actually, it didn't. It stated only I would share them.
43:55 Matt Forde? You're in breach. If they try to publish anything you've pissed on, I'll be forced to take action. Listen, Julian, I don't want to go to war with you. Julian narrows his eyes at Rosbringer. But as it happens, it seems someone in your own camp has leaked every single cable to a freelance journalist, who's already hawking them around to the highest bidder. Julian stays on Rosbringer, blink slowly. He's speechless. Sure, Rosbringer must be bluffing. No one working for him would do this, would they? I suggest you put these petty issues aside and help us publish fast, before anyone else leaks and we all get scooped.
44:38 Matt Forde? Julian finds himself shaking his head, disbelieving. No, those files can have been leaked by my team. They must have been stolen from you. I'm gonna sue your ass for loss of financial assets. Rosbringer slowly stands. Do what you need to, Julian. Either way, we have all the cables now. We're publishing at the end of the week as planned, with or without you. Julian glances at the tiny security camera on the room's ceiling, its pink light blinking at him menacingly. The low hum of the air conditioning seems to grow louder by the second. He looks round to see someone staring at him through the office window, before realising it's just his reflection in the glass. His shirt collar starts to pinch.
45:23 Matt Forde? He pulls it from his neck with sweaty fingers, struggling to breathe. His lawyer looks up. Julian? Are you okay? All Julian can focus on is the growing panic gripping him. He can't trust Rosbridge or the New York Times or even his own team. They're all in cahoots, all out to get him. He needs to leave London, find a safe house, somewhere he can think straight, regroup, and get Cablegate ready for publication without all these fears and distractions. Because right now, he sees enemies at every turn. And he doesn't know how far they're willing to go to shut him up.
46:13 Speaker 03 In the summer of 1881, US Army Lieutenant Adolphus Greeley and 24 other men embarked on an ambitious scientific mission to the northernmost reaches of the Arctic. But despite several triumphs of discovery, the men would soon face tragedy. Hi, I'm Lindsey Graham, the host of the podcast American History Tellers. We take you to the events, times, and people that shaped America and Americans, our values, our struggles, and our dreams. In our latest series, after Adolphus Greeley and his men arrive at their destination more than 1,000 miles above the Arctic Circle, they get to work collecting scientific data and exploring the frigid landscape. But when resupply ships fail to reach them two summers in a row, they're forced to set
46:56 Speaker 03 out on a desperate search for rescue, and not all of them will make it home. Follow American History Tellers wherever you get your podcasts. Audible subscribers can binge all episodes of American History Tellers: Greeley Arctic Expedition early and ad-free right now. Join Audible in the Audible app or by subscribing on Apple Podcasts.
47:15 Speaker 06 Hey, I'm Cassie DePecce, the host of Against the Odds from Audible Originals. In each episode, we share thrilling true stories of survival, putting you in the shoes of the people who lived to tell the tale. In our latest series, we track the story of Hugh Glass, the real-life revenant that inspired the 2015 film starring Leonardo DiCaprio. In 1823, Glass was brutally mauled by a grizzly bear in present-day South Dakota and left for dead. His survival depends... ...ended on trekking through 350 miles of wilderness alone with grave injuries. But he was driven by his thirst for revenge. Follow Against the Odds wherever you get your podcasts. Audible subscribers can binge all episodes of Against the Odds early and ad-free right now. Join Audible in the Audible app or by subscribing on Apple Podcasts.
48:07 Matt Forde? Five days later, Ellingham Hall, Norfolk. Julian holds his hands up, faux modest, as a small group of acolytes clap and whistle. He throws another log onto the roaring fire at the centre of the cosy drawing room, watches the flames flare and crackle. Then he sinks into the velvet sofa and thumbs through a pile of freshly delivered papers.
48:34 Alice Levine? OK, so to be clear, is this his Airbnb getaway from all the stress? Has he gone to kind of a spa hotel resort?
48:41 Matt Forde? Well, this is owned by his friend Vaughan Smith, who was helping him out in the club earlier, the Frontline Club, and it's also a wedding venue.
48:48 Alice Levine? By the sounds of it, there's lots of precedent for parties, but pre-fugitives aren't using it very often.
48:53 Matt Forde? No, maybe on the booking he checked. Sorry, can I just check? Is it, is it pre-fugitive friendly? No, I'm not actually a fugitive yet, but I'm kind of planning on being one, so I just wanted to see if I could hide out there. Since fleeing to Vaughan Smith's country residence with only his most trusted staff, Julian's finally been able to focus back on WikiLeaks. And with the publicity generated around the world by the publication of Cablegate, he's confident it's paid off. A volunteer hangs up her mobile and breathlessly shouts over, "I just spoke to The Guardian's online editor. At the last count, the stories have had over 5 million views." Julian grabs his laptop, keen to see what new submissions the publicity has brought to the site.
49:38 Matt Forde? He's confused when he gets an error message as he tries to enter. A techie rushes over with her laptop. It shows a press release issued by Amazon. WikiLeaks has been removed from air service due to a contractual breach. The site does not own or otherwise control all the rights to its classified content. What the fuck?
50:00 Alice Levine? That's about to say the same thing.
50:01 Matt Forde? Julian picks up the TV remote, frantically flicks through the news channels for more information. He stops on CNN, where a US senator is being interviewed. I applaud Amazon for making the right decision. I urge any other company or organisation that's hosting WikiLeaks to immediately terminate its relationship. Julian feels the blood drain from his face as he realises what's going on. We're under attack. Julian focuses back on his laptop, where his inbox is already filled with messages. PayPal regretfully informs him it's suspending his account due to violation of the acceptable use policy. Mastercard and Visa Europe follow suit, shutting off the major routes supporters have for making donations.
50:46 Alice Levine? Please may I remind you what Nick Davies said to him way back when? He said there'd be a multi-pronged attack, and one of those prongs was tech. And I hadn't even considered that all of the major tech institutions could just withdraw.
51:00 Matt Forde? If only Nick Davies had said, "Invest in Bitcoin." Julian drags his hands through his hair, racking his brain for a solution.
51:08 Alice Levine? Not to the hair, sorry, to this situation.
51:10 Matt Forde? Yeah, short back and sides, I think.
51:13 Alice Levine? Maybe the bleach is affecting the texture.
51:16 Matt Forde? He catches sight of the TV again, where a free speech advocate is now being interviewed. Sure, this is a headache for the White House, but it's a triumph for those who believe in the First Amendment. What's the alternative? State censorship? Struck by an idea, Julian logs on to the chatroom favoured by hacktivist collective Anonymous, who fight against information suppression. He starts typing.
51:41 Matt Forde? WikiLeaks has come under a coordinated cyber attack by the US government. This is a blatant attempt to suppress free speech motivated by political pressure and corporate self-interest. I call on you all to help the fight back.
51:56 Matt Forde? Julian drums his fingers impatiently, waiting for a response. He brightens as a few likes appear, but then... You've described hackers as subversives with no cause or conscience. Why should we help you now? Julian fires back a reply. Prove me wrong! He paces anxiously as a full-blown debate starts to rage. Free speech is free speech, whoever seeks it. Assange sold out to the mainstream, he deserves all he gets. Julian slams the laptop lid down. All he can do now is wait and hope.
52:35 Matt Forde? An hour later, Julian stands outside the grand manor house, breathing in the cold air, convinced that WikiLeaks is finished. The voice of a staffer cuts through his thoughts. Julian, you need to see this. Julian races back inside, where everyone is staring at Sky News. Hacker Group Anonymous has claimed full responsibility for taking Mastercard and Postfinance offline, as well as disrupting the credit card accounts of several US senators. Julian flicks from one report to the next. He can't believe what he's seeing. It's a full cyberwar, the revolution in practice. Even better, for the first time in months, no one is talking about his private life.
53:19 Matt Forde? Vaughn brings over a bottle of champagne, and Julian gleefully pops it open. He sucks up the foam from the top, then fills everyone's glasses. To free speech! Julian's so busy celebrating, it takes him a moment to notice the housekeeper standing in the doorway, flanked by two uniformed police officers. I'm sorry, they insisted I let them in. One of the officers steps forward. Mr. Assange, we're here on behalf of the Swedish authorities. Julian darkens. My lawyer has already explained I have no intention of returning to Sweden. That doesn't matter, Mr. Assange. The officer takes out an official-looking document. We have an international warrant.
54:05 Matt Forde? You're under arrest for one count of unlawful coercion, two counts of sexual molestation, and one count of rape. You will be taken into our custody pending extradition to Sweden. As the other officer slaps a pair of cuffs across Julian's wrists, he can hear Vaughan and his loyal helpers protest. But right now, it feels meaningless. Because while he might have won the war on press freedom, it seems he's about to lose his own.
54:44 Speaker 07 Imagine you're reading Pride and Prejudice, except you're not reading it. Harris Dickinson and Marissa Abella are reading it to you on Audible. Her barbs sting you. His coldness sends a shiver up your spine. Your heart aches. Your ears burn. You yearn for Elizabeth and Mr. Darcy to profess their undying love for one another. You can't bear it any longer. Well, maybe a chapter longer. Performance is so good, you'll give love a second chance. Audible. Stories that speak to you. You stepped out for your morning jog. Except it's not your usual morning jog. You started listening to an epic sci-fi book on Audible. Thirty chapters later, you've accidentally run a half marathon. You've lost track of how far you've run, somewhere just past the city limits.
55:29 Speaker 07 You can't stop. You have to find out what happens next. Then it's over. The universe seems bigger. You feel different. You feel like you have no idea where you are. Audible. Stories that speak to you.
55:48 Matt Forde? From Wondery and Samistat Audio, this is the second episode in our series, Julian Assange.
55:54 Alice Levine? A quick note about our dialogue: in most cases, we can't know exactly what was said, but all our dramatizations are based on historical research.
56:01 Matt Forde? If you'd like to know more about this story, you can read Julian Assange: The Unauthorized Autobiography by Andrew Hagan and Julian Assange; Inside WikiLeaks: My Time with Julian Assange at the World's Most Dangerous Website by Daniel Donshiteberg; Read Me dot Text: A Memoir by Chelsea Manning; No Secrets: A New Yorker Essay by Rafi Kachadorian; and you can watch We Steal Secrets: The Story of WikiLeaks, a documentary by Alex Gibney on Amazon Prime.
56:29 Alice Levine? Then you can email us at [email protected] . British Scandal is hosted by me, Alice Levine.
56:35 Matt Forde? And me, Matt Ford.
56:36 Alice Levine? Written by Wendy Granditer. Additional writing by Alice Levine and Matt Ford. Our story editor is James Maniac. Sound design by Rich Evans. For Samistat, our producer is Chica Ayers. Our assistant producer is Redsey Bernard. Our senior producers are Jo Sykes and Dasha Lisatsina.
56:52 Matt Forde? For Wondery, our senior producer is Theodora Leludis and our senior managing producer is Rachel Sibley.
56:58 Alice Levine? Executive producers for Wondery are Estelle Doyle, Chris Bourne, Morgan Jones, and Marshall Louie.
57:13 Matt Forde? Alice, it is the best time of year. We are just two months away from Christmas.
57:17 Alice Levine? How could we forget how you lose your mind about this time of year? You absolutely go nuts.
57:23 Matt Forde? I know it's mature. I do. And I'm allergic to nuts, so that tells you how mad I get. I'm even more excited this year because we are having a British Scandal Christmas Party special with the listeners.
57:35 Alice Levine? Okay, your demeanor is appropriate, then. This is massive. We've never done this before.
57:39 Matt Forde? We haven't. This is long overdue. So, to secure yourself a non-physical invite to this party, we want to know if you have a connection to a British Scandal character.
57:49 Alice Levine? We cannot stress enough a non-physical invite to the party. And the longer the chain of connections, the better, I think. So we're going to invite you to play the game. British Scandal: Seven Degrees of Separation. Make it tenuous.
58:02 Matt Forde? That is a catchy title.
58:03 Alice Levine? Many thanks. Did your nan's neighbour's gardener drive the getaway car in the Millennium Dome heist?
58:09 Matt Forde? Did your great, great, great, great, great, great grandmother go to school with Mary, Queen of Scots? There are prizes and there is glory.
58:16 Alice Levine? To be clear, non-physical invite. Email us at [email protected] with the subject line 'Christmas Special' and please include as much detail and information as possible. The more obscure, the better.
58:29 Matt Forde? We need your entries by the 10th of November, so email us, [email protected] .
58:36 Speaker 06 Journalist Daphne Caruana Galizia spent her life exposing powerful people. Then, in 2017, she was killed in a car bombing. I'm Stephen Gray, and for the past nine years, I've been trying to find out who wanted her dead. That search took me to Malta through secret companies, organised crime, and eventually to one of the island's richest and most powerful men. Now, after years of waiting, his trial has finally happened. But when the verdict came in, the case took a turn that almost no one had expected. In a brand-new update to the multi-award-winning podcast Who Killed Daphne?, I'm returning to Malta to find out how we got there and where the search for the truth goes next. Listen to the new episode
59:18 Speaker 06 of Who Killed Daphne? wherever you get your podcasts, and you can hear the full six-part investigation from the beginning, ad-free, with Audible. Join Audible today by downloading the Audible app and by subscribing on Apple Podcasts.
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