276. "I resent carrying our finances. Can we fix this?"

Ramit unpacks how resentment, unequal workloads, and conflicting ideas about money can push a marriage to breaking point, even when the numbers suggest a couple should be doing well. Ramit Sethi of I Will Teach You To Be Rich speaks with Lauren and Robert, a married couple who have spent years building resentment around work, spending, and who carries the financial load. Lauren works three jobs, often 55–60 hours a week, while managing most of their finances. Robert, a retired Navy veteran who once believed retirement meant he wouldn’t need to work again, has recently returned to work. On paper, they’re doing better than they think, but they have just $24,000 in savings, around $70,000 in debt, fixed costs at 81%, and almost nothing currently being directed toward savings or investments. Along the way, a $700,000 inheritance, a $40,000 pool scam, a $3,200 bounce house, and a $150,000 pool became major sources of conflict. Lauren believes Robert needs to earn more. Robert feels like his opinion often doesn’t matter because Lauren earns more. But Ramit quickly discovers that more income isn’t going to solve what’s happening between them. Their resentment has reached the point where they’ve talked about divorce. To move forward, they’ll need to stop keeping score, create a shared vision for their money, and learn how to operate as a team. A special thanks to DeleteMe for sponsoring this episode. Get 20% off all consumer plans when you go to https://joindeleteme.com/ramit and use promo code RAMIT at checkout. In this episode, we uncover: Why Lauren feels like she’s been carrying the financial weight for years Why Robert believed retirement meant he wouldn’t need to work again How a $700,000 inheritance shaped the life they built together Why a second $150,000 pool became a major source of conflict Why Robert feels like saying “no” rarely changes the outcome Why Lauren struggles to say no to herself and their children Why Ramit tells them Robert earning more money won’t fix the real problem Why they earn more than they realized but still barely save or invest How Robert’s childhood shaped his views on work, scarcity, and spending How Ramit helps them rebuild their financial system around partnership Whether Lauren and Robert can stop keeping score and start acting like a team Chapters: (00:00:00) Introduction (00:05:09) Lauren receives a $700,000 inheritance (00:19:00) When the resentment started building (00:31:59) Ramit reviews their financial numbers (00:37:06) Why they’re barely saving or investing (00:50:40) Lauren has been managing the money alone (00:56:31) They’ve never created a shared financial vision (01:03:41) Ramit changes how they talk about money (01:24:39) What their retirement could actually look like (01:27:21) Rebuilding their Conscious Spending Plan (01:35:26) Lauren and Robert’s follow-up This episode is brought to you by: Granola | Try Granola totally free at https://granola.ai/RAMIT. Notion | Learn more about how Notion can support your business, at https://notion.com/ramit Gusto | Try Gusto at http://gusto.com/ramit and get 3 months free when you run your first payroll LMNT | Get a free LMNT Sample Pack with any order at https://drinklmnt.com/RAMIT If you’re ready to stop putting off your money goals, Road to $100K gives you a step-by-step plan to reach your first $100,000, focus on what matters, and accelerate your timeline while building your Rich Life. Join Road to $100K at https://iwt.com/100K Connect with Ramit • Get my new book, Money For Couples • Join my Rich Life: Road to $100K program • Download the Conscious Spending Plan • Listen to my book—now on Audible • Get my New York Times best-selling book • Get my no-numbers journal • Other episodes • Instagram • Twitter • YouTube Apply to be coached for free on this podcast at https://iwt.com/apply

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Ramit Sethi?

  Are you both a team?

• 0:01Speaker 01

  I feel like I've been carrying the weight for a long time.

• 0:03Ramit Sethi?

  You said resentment has been building for years. We've talked about divorce. That's like as serious as it gets.

• 0:10Speaker 01

  I'm out there busting my ass. I was working like 60 hours a week, three jobs, and he wasn't working at all.

• 0:16Speaker 02

  I retired, so I was like, okay, I can be retired and not have to work again.

• 0:20Ramit Sethi?

  When did that resentment start?

• 0:21Speaker 01

  We were gonna put a pool in. He was like, we're not putting a pool in.

• 0:25Ramit Sethi?

  How much did the pool cost?

• 0:26Speaker 01

  Hundred and fifty grand.

• 0:27Speaker 02

  She said, I grew up with a pool. I want my kids to grow up with a pool. She'll say, oh, you just don't want our kids to have fun. I'm not the villain all the time.

• 0:33Speaker 01

  Let's also add that he went to Disney the week before by himself.

• 0:36Ramit Sethi?

  Hold up. What is this? What's happening right now? Like, we're talking about you and you're jabbing him about Disney.

• 0:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 0:42Speaker 02

  It's scary that we have your inheritance and a 401K. And that's basically our retirement.

• 0:47Speaker 01

  He's worried about investments, but he doesn't invest. It's just me.

• 0:51Ramit Sethi?

  Until you two work through this, none of the rest of it matters.

• 0:55Speaker 01

  I certainly like never want to get divorced, but I need some big changes in order to continue.

• 1:03Ramit Sethi?

  Listen to this line from Lauren's application. Quote, resentment has built up as I manage the household finances, family schedule, and work 55-plus hours per week. And Rob, her husband, works minimally. He has lots of free time. She goes on to say that the only way she sees to fix this is for Rob to make more money. It's kind of a lot of resentment that's very evident through her words. She further writes, I've gotten extremely frustrated this past year and mentioned divorce. I need major changes. As you can see, the stakes are extremely high. But I will tell you that the income gap is not actually the real problem here.

• 1:46Ramit Sethi?

  I noticed that there's a story they've been telling themselves about what that gap means. We're gonna get into all of this in detail, but let's take a look at their numbers through their conscious spending plan, or CSP. Assets, $474,000. Investments, $257,000. Savings, $24,000. And debt, about $70,000. Total net worth, $685,000. Wow, their net monthly income is $17,000 or $204,000 in net income. That's a lot of money. Fixed costs are at 81%, which is very high for that income. Investments at zero, savings also at zero. Guilt-free spending, not even on the CSP? Huh? It's not even here.

• 2:28Ramit Sethi?

  You had to affirmatively go and erase it for it not to be on here. So I'm gonna find out what happened there. I have a lot of questions for them, but first I want to take a moment to shout out this episode's sponsor, Delete Me. Delete Me is a service that I personally use and I love it. In fact, I use it for my own personal privacy protection as well as for my parents. If your information is online, you can go on Google and search for your name and your city, you're gonna find a crazy amount of information that is public. Your address, phone number, your siblings' names, all of it. Delete Me does an amazing job of going out to those data broker sites and getting them systematically removed one by one, so you don't have to.

• 3:08Ramit Sethi?

  Go to joindelete.me/ramit and use code RAMIT for 20% off a plan for you and your family. Delete Me, a great sponsor of this podcast. Now, let's get started with Lauren and Rob. Have the two of you seen this application?

• 3:23Speaker 02

  No.

• 3:24Speaker 01

  I don't know if you have.

• 3:25Speaker 02

  Oh. I came home one day and she said, guess what I did? And I said, what did you do this time?

• 3:29Speaker 01

  I don't think so. And I was like hoping he'd be open to it, and he was.

• 3:33Ramit Sethi?

  Okay.

• 3:33Speaker 01

  But.

• 3:34Ramit Sethi?

  All right, let me read the application, because Lauren, you said resentment has been building for years. And you have mentioned divorce. That's like as serious as it gets. When did you fill that application out?

• 3:48Speaker 01

  Jeez, a few months ago? I guess it wasn't that long ago.

• 3:51Ramit Sethi?

  Rob, did you know that she had mentioned resentment and divorce?

• 3:54Speaker 02

  When we did the interview, it came up. And I kind of made the comment like, I didn't think the big D was on the table with it, but you know, it's only my half of the story, obviously. And then that kind of hit home because Lauren is wife number three, so I've already been divorced twice. So I didn't want to do that again. And the other two marriages, I didn't have kids or a family. So you know, it was kind of an easier break. And this is, you know, this is my forever home, I guess. I think that kind of resonated with me, like, okay, let's just work a few hours a day, make some money and.

• 4:37Ramit Sethi?

  Do you remember the first time you talked about money? Like, seriously talked about money?

• 4:42Speaker 01

  I mean, kind of soon, because we decided to build a house together after we were dating for six months.

• 4:48Ramit Sethi?

  Okay. How'd that happen? Like, what was that conversation like?

• 4:52Speaker 01

  It was in my name, and it was, you know, pretty much with like my, like some inheritance money. But we needed more room.

• 5:01Speaker 02

  Well, we were in a two-bedroom condo.

• 5:03Speaker 01

  With the dog and baby.

• 5:04Speaker 02

  With a dog and my friend that retired with me because he needed some help.

• 5:09Speaker 01

  Needed a place to crash. So it was just like tight.

• 5:11Ramit Sethi?

  Tell me about this inheritance.

• 5:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, so unfortunately, both my parents passed away. My mom in 2014, she had cancer. And then my dad in 2016, and it was like very unexpected.

• 5:24Ramit Sethi?

  I'm sorry.

• 5:25Speaker 01

  So, you know, that was tough. Rob met my dad once. You know, obviously, like, my inheritance led us to be able to kind of build the life that we have and, you know, build a house. And so that's a big piece of what I came into the marriage with.

• 5:43Ramit Sethi?

  Do you mind if I ask a few questions about the financial parts of that? Okay. How much was the inheritance?

• 5:49Speaker 01

  $700,000.

• 5:51Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, did you expect it?

• 5:52Speaker 01

  No, I think especially with my dad. I mean, my mom was sick, and so I figured maybe we would get some money, but like, she had, she didn't make a ton of money, so I didn't expect like a lot. And then my dad, it was just so unexpected that definitely was not expecting that. I mean, I was like, wow, there's a lot we can do with this. I think that's when we decided to build the house.

• 6:15Ramit Sethi?

  And at this point, the two of you are dating?

• 6:17Speaker 01

  Dating.

• 6:17Ramit Sethi?

  Okay.

• 6:18Speaker 01

  I think we were feeling pretty committed to each other. I mean, he did propose within a year of us, you know, dating. He was, I think you were at a point where you wanted to like have a family and kind of had this built-in family.

• 6:32Ramit Sethi?

  How long have you two been married?

• 6:33Speaker 01

  It'll be eight years this year, 2018.

• 6:36Ramit Sethi?

  How old are the children?

• 6:37Speaker 01

  Two, five, and 10.

• 6:38Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, and are the children all from this marriage?

• 6:42Speaker 01

  No, my oldest is from a prior relationship.

• 6:44Ramit Sethi?

  Got it, okay. How did you know how much house you could afford?

• 6:47Speaker 01

  Probably just looking at like the monthly mortgage we could afford. I was working as a nurse. I wasn't a nurse practitioner yet.

• 6:54Speaker 02

  We actually downsized from what we originally wanted, because we actually said, we can't afford the house we want, so we'll just rearrange it. Because it wasn't, it was basically whatever we wanted, he was gonna build, you know? He gave us set plans and we picked one, and there was some customization.

• 7:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, so we were like in a pretty good spot with being able to afford the house that we did build.

• 7:18Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, so you built a house.

• 7:20Speaker 01

  We built that house. We put a nice, beautiful pool in.

• 7:24Ramit Sethi?

  Now, I understand that you were the victims of a scam.

• 7:27Speaker 01

  Oh, my God.

• 7:28Ramit Sethi?

  In the relationship. Can you tell me about this?

• 7:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:30Speaker 02

  Has to do with the pool.

• 7:31Speaker 01

  Yep, it does. So when we built that house, by the time the house was ready, we had been dating like a year and three months. And there was this guy working for the like excavating crew that went and preyed on multiple people on this street and kind of like came up to us, trying to like sell us the idea of this like beautiful backyard dream. We're like, yeah. And we were like naive, kind of first-time homebuyers. And he like dug a hole, and we gave him like half the money. And he ran off with about $40,000.

• 8:10Ramit Sethi?

  Gone?

• 8:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, gone.

• 8:12Ramit Sethi?

  What'd you do?

• 8:13Speaker 01

  We tried to like go to the police and pursue, you know, something. And they basically said it's like.

• 8:19Speaker 02

  The star of the work, who says he won't come back and finish it?

• 8:23Speaker 01

  It's a civil matter. We can't do anything about it. And then like I would look him up and I'd see things, like I saw a news thing that he, you know, screwed this lady over by like, you know, selling her a car for $10,000 and then not giving to her. And I was like, wait a minute, he took 40 grand from us. And maybe we were just stupid in giving it to him because we just were like sold up on the dream or whatever. But I mean, I guess a lot of people on our street went through very similar things. So this guy was like a professional con artist. And that was like devastating. I mean, that was, you know, part of my inheritance money. That was like.

• 9:01Ramit Sethi?

  That money came from the inheritance?

• 9:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:04Ramit Sethi?

  Wow, what did that feel like?

• 9:06Speaker 01

  I just felt like an idiot. I mean, I lost a lot of sleep over it. You know, it was like, eventually, we had to just kind of move forward from it, because after we talked to the police and they said they couldn't do anything.

• 9:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, they couldn't even locate him. He went back to.

• 9:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:21Speaker 02

  He was medicating and.

• 9:22Ramit Sethi?

  What did the neighbors do?

• 9:23Speaker 02

  Same.

• 9:25Speaker 01

  I don't think they got much recourse either. Yeah.

• 9:27Ramit Sethi?

  Did anybody talk to each other?

• 9:29Speaker 01

  We did. We went up and talked to a few different ones.

• 9:31Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah.

• 9:32Speaker 01

  Some of their jobs were like smaller.

• 9:34Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah.

• 9:34Speaker 01

  And he might have done it, but like did a crappy job. He built a basketball court for one house, and the court was like this. It was like slanted.

• 9:43Ramit Sethi?

  I mean, it's pretty crazy. What happened with the pool is a violation. They just bought a house. Suddenly, all these people come out of the woodwork trying to extract money from them. A lot of times, things like this happen whenever you make a major purchase. Or you buy a house, or you have children. Your name gets put on many, many lists. And suddenly, your private information is getting shared everywhere. Now, there is one thing you can do about it. That is why I love this episode's sponsor, Delete Me, for my personal privacy and for my family's privacy. Something that I encourage you to use, because for a very reasonable price, you can have Delete Me out there scouring the internet, removing your personal information. In fact, you'll get 20% off all consumer plans when you go to joindelete.me/ramit

• 10:28Ramit Sethi?

  and you use promo code RAMIT at checkout. Now, handing over $40,000 to this scammer says something about how Lauren and Rob make decisions about money. Listen in as we discover some other impulsive spending habits. Is that the house you live in today?

• 10:43Speaker 01

  No.

• 10:43Speaker 02

  No.

• 10:44Ramit Sethi?

  Oh, what's that reaction? What happened?

• 10:47Speaker 01

  I had some impulsive things along the way. So I think we built it so fast that we realized, or I realized, like, I didn't really like living out in the sticks where we had built it. And so I was kind of itching to move and found a house that was like a flip, completely different, not a new construction. But also, we wanted to have more kids and like, kind of wanted more space. And so it was a little crazy.

• 11:15Ramit Sethi?

  What part of it was crazy?

• 11:17Speaker 01

  Just like, we built a house, and then two years later, I'm like, oh, let's move, you know? And he was like, no way.

• 11:24Speaker 01

  And then I went and looked at the house.

• 11:26Ramit Sethi?

  How do you make that decision? Because one of you is like, I want out. And Rob, you're saying no. How did you make that decision together?

• 11:35Speaker 01

  There was a sauna. That's what sold him on the new house.

• 11:38Ramit Sethi?

  Oh, you convinced him? Hey, if we go to this house, there'll be a sauna there.

• 11:41Speaker 01

  There was one at the house I found.

• 11:43Speaker 02

  Right, and at the time, we were both commuting 30, 40 minutes to work. And she was like, this is insane.

• 11:49Speaker 01

  And kind of like, where we want to start the kids in school. I was like, I don't think I want to be in this town.

• 11:55Ramit Sethi?

  Can I just ask the question? Like, how did you not think of this before you built the house?

• 11:59Speaker 01

  Because we built it so fast. I don't think we really thought hard enough about where we wanted to live.

• 12:06Ramit Sethi?

  Is this a common thing when it comes to your money? Not thinking ahead?

• 12:09Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 12:10Ramit Sethi?

  Rob, you agree?

• 12:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, more so on that side.

• 12:16Ramit Sethi?

  More so on whose side?

• 12:17Speaker 02

  On her side.

• 12:18Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, so Lauren, you're saying you don't really think ahead?

• 12:21Speaker 01

  I can be a little impulsive.

• 12:23Speaker 02

  Right, there's times where she'll like, overanalyze, like, okay, maybe we shouldn't do this. And then other times, it's, I come home and there's something new and shiny.

• 12:33Ramit Sethi?

  What are some other examples of new and shiny things that you impulsively have?

• 12:36Speaker 02

  Well, the newest one is a bounce house, which isn't...

• 12:38Ramit Sethi?

  Like a full-size kids' jump in the...

• 12:41Speaker 01

  Commercial-grade bounce house.

• 12:43Ramit Sethi?

  Wait a minute, how much does that cost? I've never...

• 12:45Speaker 02

  I don't even know.

• 12:45Speaker 01

  He doesn't even know, yeah.

• 12:47Ramit Sethi?

  Oh, let's reveal it today for the first time.

• 12:49Speaker 01

  So I know, I was like, did I really just do this before we go on the podcast?

• 12:52Ramit Sethi?

  How much?

• 12:53Speaker 01

  So it was $3,200.

• 12:56Speaker 02

  I thought way less than that, but that's okay.

• 12:59Ramit Sethi?

  And how did you pay for that?

• 13:00Speaker 01

  I picked up a weekend of call, extra call, booking. And it was great. I didn't even get any calls. And I pretty much paid for it.

• 13:09Ramit Sethi?

  Got it. And is this a common thing where, you know, I want to buy this big thing, I'll pick up an extra shift or two?

• 13:14Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 13:16Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, and Rob, what is your reaction? You know, you come home and you see a bounce house.

• 13:20Speaker 02

  Well, I didn't even, I just was told, hey, you have to be home, there's a bounce house being delivered. And I said, oh, we rented a bounce house? And she said, no, we bought one.

• 13:28Ramit Sethi?

  What's your reaction to that?

• 13:30Speaker 02

  I...

• 13:30Speaker 01

  Pissed.

• 13:31Speaker 02

  I kind of hated it, but...

• 13:32Ramit Sethi?

  Did you say that?

• 13:34Speaker 02

  I did, I said, can we return it? And she said, no, the kids are gonna love it. So I said, again, can we return it? And I saw her like, escalate her answer of no, it's paid for. And I just said, okay.

• 13:51Ramit Sethi?

  Got it. What do you think this dynamic is around the bounce house? What role did each of you play in this? Lauren?

• 13:59Speaker 01

  Just buying it.

• 14:00Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, so you just bought it. All right, and then what was your role, Rob?

• 14:03Speaker 02

  Just dealing with it, like, okay, that's, that's the way it is. I guess we have a bounce house, let me figure out where I'm gonna store it now.

• 14:12Ramit Sethi?

  Got it.

• 14:13Speaker 01

  I like seeing my kids outside, having fun, off screens. Like, they have this amazing life.

• 14:22Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah.

• 14:22Speaker 01

  And I worked hard for it, and I continue to work hard for it.

• 14:26Speaker 02

  Some of the issues is, and we'll just, she'll be like, it's my money, or I earned it, so I want to spend it the way I want to.

• 14:35Ramit Sethi?

  Is that true?

• 14:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:36Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, and is that working for your finances?

• 14:42Speaker 01

  No.

• 14:42Ramit Sethi?

  All right.

• 14:43Speaker 01

  Because I work so hard. I work a lot. And I think I get like, resentful or annoyed when he does say no to things. Because I'm like, well, I'm the one making the money, I'm the one paying the mortgage. Like, I don't like to say no when I want something. But also, I feel like I prioritize what I spend my money on. Like, I don't have like, designer clothes and bags and all that kind of stuff. Like, I really like to spend money on my kids, mostly.

• 15:12Ramit Sethi?

  So what do you do?

• 15:13Speaker 01

  I'm like, afraid to ask him or tell him about, like, ask him about purchases, because I know he'll say no.

• 15:18Ramit Sethi?

  Well, he did say no.

• 15:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, afterwards.

• 15:21Ramit Sethi?

  I'm picking up a lot of clues right away in this conversation. Lauren makes the money, and therefore makes the rules about money. Rob says no, but gets overruled. I suspect they're trapped in a particular dynamic of the parent-child dynamic, which kind of looks harmless, sometimes even funny, like with their bounce house. But this exact pattern often builds resentment on both sides over the years. The one in the parent role gets exhausted carrying everything alone. It's also not attractive to be the parent to someone who's supposed to be your intimate partner. The one in the child role feels like their voice doesn't actually matter. And it's clear that they both are carrying a lot of resentment in this conversation. You can see it in the little jabs they keep throwing at each other.

• 16:05Ramit Sethi?

  We're gonna dig into that resentment right after this. One of the most helpful things that I have started using in the last year or so is meeting notes that automatically tell me what the next action steps are. Clear notes really matter, they are so easy. And that is why I recommend this episode's sponsor, Granola. Granola is an AI-powered notepad built for the way real people actually meet. Using it is easy. You take your typical rough notes during a call, and in the background, Granola uses your device's audio to turn your messy bullet points into clean, structured, actionable insights. It's great, because there's no setup, there's no awkward bots showing up to the call.

• 16:47Ramit Sethi?

  My colleague told me, what I love about Granola is that I can stay focused on the conversation instead of scrambling to capture every detail. And if I forget something, Granola got it with the action items ready to go. If meetings are eating up your day, Granola is a no-brainer. You can try it totally free, just head to granola.ai/ramit. That's granola.ai/ramit to get your time back. Try it for free at granola.ai/ramit. You know I love automation. If there are ways that I can do less and have things automatically handled for me, fantastic. I don't want to spend time copying from one place to another, looking up some random document, or transferring data from here to there.

• 17:31Ramit Sethi?

  Automation should make all of that disappear. That's exactly why my teams use Notion. Notion is the AI workspace where your team's knowledge, projects, and agents all come together in one place. Teams using Notion move faster, cut friction and costs by consolidating tools, and they stay aligned. Notion seamlessly connects your documents, meetings, and projects in a space where AI has the context it needs to help you do your best work. And because Notion is a central hub, it's easier for you to keep things moving. Things like answering questions, automating busy work, all done in the same workspace without friction. Learn more about how Notion can support your business at notion.com/ramit.

• 18:12Ramit Sethi?

  That's all lowercase letters, notion.com/ramit, to try Notion today. And when you use our link, you're supporting our show. In the application, you wrote about resentment. When did that resentment about money start?

• 18:26Speaker 01

  I think a big part was when we did move, and I just like, assumed we were gonna put a pool in. And he was like, we're not putting a pool in.

• 18:34Ramit Sethi?

  How much did the pool cost?

• 18:36Speaker 01

  150 grand.

• 18:37Ramit Sethi?

  Did you know that when you wanted it?

• 18:39Speaker 01

  I knew like, maybe a little over 100, but...

• 18:42Ramit Sethi?

  Okay.

• 18:43Speaker 02

  It's just another aspect of me saying, do we really need it? And she said, I grew up with a pool, I want my kids to grow up with a pool. And I said, well, I didn't grow up with a pool, and I'm still alive and kicking, like...

• 18:56Ramit Sethi?

  When did that come up?

• 18:57Speaker 01

  Oh, right after we bought it, pretty much. I was like, okay, so when are we gonna put the pool?

• 19:01Speaker 02

  And I said, what do you mean? Why would we just put a brand-new pool in a brand-new house? Why would we not look for a house that had a pool already in it? And she said, well, it's, we're here now, and it kind of went away. And the next thing you know, I have these guys coming, surveying the land for a pool. And I said, why are these guys here?

• 19:25Speaker 01

  I want both of us to be happy, and I don't want him to resent me for just making decisions without him.

• 19:31Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, and do you resent Lauren?

• 19:38Speaker 02

  I wish I had more of a say. Sometimes I don't feel validated because I'll say no and it just happens anyway. And I guess that could build a resentment, but I don't always say no either.

• 19:52Ramit Sethi?

  Do you think saying no makes you a bad guy?

• 19:54Speaker 02

  Sometimes, because that's how it just comes off like. Cause she'll say, oh, you just don't want our kids to have fun. Like, well, do they really need a $3,200 bounce house to have fun? After we just bought a new Power Wheels and a go-kart. I'm not the villain all the time.

• 20:11Speaker 01

  Let's also add that he went to Disney the week before by himself.

• 20:14Ramit Sethi?

  What is this? What's happening right now? Like, we're talking about you and you're jabbing him about Disney.

• 20:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:20Ramit Sethi?

  We're certainly gonna talk about whatever Rob's got with money. We'll talk about that, but I'd like to talk about you for a second. Is saying no in your relationship a bad thing?

• 20:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, it's, I guess so.

• 20:32Ramit Sethi?

  Uh huh.

• 20:33Speaker 01

  I don't know, I'm having a hard time answering it.

• 20:35Ramit Sethi?

  How come?

• 20:36Speaker 01

  Cause I want him to be like, happy with the way we spend our money and and I want us both to feel good about things.

• 20:45Ramit Sethi?

  Uh huh.

• 20:46Speaker 01

  Um, but I also, I get resentful when he says no and he's not like paying the bills.

• 20:53Ramit Sethi?

  What about when you say no?

• 20:55Speaker 01

  I don't think I say no much.

• 20:57Ramit Sethi?

  Got it. Do you ever say no?

• 20:58Speaker 01

  Pretty rare.

• 20:59Ramit Sethi?

  Uh huh. You ever say no to your kids?

• 21:02Speaker 01

  I mean, I, I feel like about certain things, like, um, I don't want them to be like spoiled brats and just have everything material and it's not about that so much. Cause otherwise they do pretty much get whatever they want.

• 21:17Ramit Sethi?

  Lauren, you're smiling.

• 21:18Speaker 01

  I'm just laughing at how much the bouncy house has come up on this.

• 21:22Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah. Why, why, hold on, Rob. Why are you laughing about it, though?

• 21:26Speaker 01

  It's making me laugh. I was out there last weekend with my kids on it, just watching them spend the whole day out there and be tired out. And like the words that came to my mind were like, this is my rich life.

• 21:38Ramit Sethi?

  This is my rich life, so?

• 21:40Speaker 01

  So it's okay.

• 21:41Ramit Sethi?

  Ah, is that how it works? If something feels good to us, it is our rich life so we can buy it?

• 21:50Speaker 01

  Yes, if I'm not going into like credit card debt over it.

• 21:55Ramit Sethi?

  So as long as I'm not going into credit card debt, I can get it? If I say it's my rich life?

• 22:03Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 22:04Ramit Sethi?

  That's it. You look pained right now.

• 22:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, I feel pained.

• 22:08Ramit Sethi?

  Why?

• 22:08Speaker 01

  Just cause it sounds like, geez, like she can't say no to herself or say no to her kids or.

• 22:15Ramit Sethi?

  That's true.

• 22:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:17Ramit Sethi?

  You can't. You told me that.

• 22:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:19Ramit Sethi?

  So what's painful about that?

• 22:21Speaker 01

  I guess it's like a little bit embarrassing that I don't have the restraint to.

• 22:24Ramit Sethi?

  What do you think the problem is here?

• 22:26Speaker 01

  I mean, like, lack of communication, but also just like lack of equality and contributing.

• 22:34Ramit Sethi?

  Got it. So the income is a problem as well?

• 22:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 22:36Speaker 01

  Well, he was home with our babies. Like, we decided to have him be a stay-at-home dad, which worked for a while, but then when the youngest went to school, I was like, okay, you need to do something now. You know, he retired from the Navy. If he didn't have kids, he could probably live off that, fine. But with three kids, like, I needed him to work and I was getting resentful because I was working like 60 hours a week, three jobs, and he wasn't working at all. So I'd come home and be like sitting on the couch.

• 23:05Speaker 02

  Well, it's like, I retired, so I was like, okay, I can be retired and not have to work again. The hard truth was I have to work.

• 23:13Ramit Sethi?

  Uh huh.

• 23:13Speaker 02

  It took a while for me to realize that I needed to bring in something.

• 23:17Ramit Sethi?

  Got it.

• 23:18Speaker 02

  And I think the biggest pushback I was giving to her is like, well, I'm not gonna make as much as she is gonna make. Like, the job career I took, it's just this, I'm a, I'm a chef. It's not major money. I mean, okay, I'll go make my $23 an hour. It's not, it's not the best. Well, I get a raise maybe eventually, but I'm never gonna make the same as she does. Like, what's, what's it matter? And she would be like, anything you make is something. It's better than zero. And it took, it took, you know, a couple kicks in the, in the back to get me to realize that. And so I did and it does, it does help.

• 23:58Speaker 01

  I think because we have been through a lot of therapy in the past year and like done a lot of communicating and Rob has made some big changes, like he did get a job. We're both like feeling a lot better, like we both go to a gym now together. Just we're kind of in a better place.

• 24:14Ramit Sethi?

  Great.

• 24:15Speaker 01

  Um, you know, and I certainly like never wanna get divorced. I never wanna break up my family. I love Rob. Um, but I needed like some big changes in order to continue.

• 24:25Ramit Sethi?

  Got it. Are you on the same page with money right now?

• 24:27Speaker 01

  Not quite.

• 24:28Ramit Sethi?

  Okay. What do you think the solution is for the problem as you've described it today? Rob, I'll start with you on this one.

• 24:35Speaker 02

  Just open communication where, you know, I think we wouldn't be so impulsive. Maybe she would be, okay, she would think about it a little bit more.

• 24:45Ramit Sethi?

  Okay.

• 24:46Speaker 01

  I agree with that and I do think he needs to work. I don't, not necessarily like make a ton of money, but I think if I'm working three jobs and our kids are in school, then it is reasonable for him to be working at least 30 hours a week or so.

• 25:01Ramit Sethi?

  Okay. Rob, are you, are you cool with that?

• 25:03Speaker 02

  I am, and I am. Like, I'm picking up more shifts and I'm open to it. I rearranged schedules so I could work more and.

• 25:11Ramit Sethi?

  So this sounds good.

• 25:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:12Speaker 02

  Right.

• 25:12Ramit Sethi?

  Let's take the win. Hold on, let's take the win.

• 25:14Speaker 01

  It's kinda like new, him working this much, so I'm just hoping that it lasts.

• 25:19Ramit Sethi?

  Huh? Like, you wanted him to work, he said yes, he's actually working.

• 25:23Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 25:24Ramit Sethi?

  But now you have a new worry, which is, I'm just worried it's not gonna last.

• 25:28Speaker 01

  No, it is great. Like, that's what I said before is like, he's made a lot of changes and I appreciate that.

• 25:35Ramit Sethi?

  Cool.

• 25:35Speaker 02

  When I started working, there was a little bit of like, you're only gonna do two days a week. And I was like, well, okay, I'll pick up more. You know, I rearranged the schedule and now I'm working more. And I think that's what drove her away from the resentment and divorce aspect because she saw that I was willing to change and work. And I, I do like where I work. It's, you know, I work at a rehab center cooking food for people struggling and it's not the best money in the world, but it's fulfilling and she just appreciates it and that made me happy and.

• 26:12Ramit Sethi?

  That's cool. I like that. Lauren, now that I know what Rob does for a living, what do you do for a living?

• 26:17Speaker 01

  I'm a psychiatric nurse practitioner.

• 26:20Ramit Sethi?

  Got it. And you mentioned you work multiple jobs. What are those jobs?

• 26:23Speaker 01

  Yeah. So I have one like day job, my main hospital. I, um, I work in a day program with pregnant and postpartum women. And then I do a telehealth job on the side that's in similar population. And then I teach some undergrad courses at the University of Rhode Island.

• 26:39Ramit Sethi?

  Got it. Okay, great. And you mentioned that's like 55 to 60 hours a week, is that right?

• 26:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, tends to be.

• 26:46Ramit Sethi?

  Do you like working?

• 26:47Speaker 01

  I do.

• 26:47Ramit Sethi?

  Okay. And do you like working a lot of hours or no?

• 26:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, like I like to stay busy. It's good for my mental health. I just don't wanna be like absent in my kids' lives. Like, I wanna be home with them at night and, um, but I'm definitely like not a stay-at-home mom. I need to work.

• 27:04Ramit Sethi?

  Okay. What do you notice about the role each of you is playing in this conversation?

• 27:09Speaker 01

  I'm feeling guilty, kinda like.

• 27:12Speaker 02

  You're on the offensive.

• 27:13Speaker 01

  Like, he always says I'm, I'm like a bull who isn't trying to shop. Like, I just, you know, I can be impulsive, I make decisions. I don't like being told no.

• 27:24Ramit Sethi?

  Uh huh.

• 27:25Speaker 01

  I just kinda like take my stance and like stick to it and I don't wanna disregard his feelings or opinions, but I guess I do.

• 27:35Ramit Sethi?

  Okay.

• 27:35Speaker 02

  I am the sheep. Like, I just.

• 27:39Ramit Sethi?

  What does that mean?

• 27:40Speaker 02

  When there's certain decisions she makes, no matter what I say, eventually I'm just gonna have to cave and just let it be and then figure out how to cope and get over the, I don't even know what to say, I guess resentment or just the feeling not valued, valued, I guess.

• 28:01Ramit Sethi?

  Is that how you feel?

• 28:02Speaker 02

  When it comes to decision-making for money, yes.

• 28:05Ramit Sethi?

  Well, that's what we're talking about.

• 28:06Speaker 02

  Right, yes.

• 28:07Ramit Sethi?

  Do you, do you feel valued or not valued when it comes to money in your relationship?

• 28:12Speaker 02

  I feel undervalued. When it comes to big decisions, sometimes it's like, why bother? Cause she's gonna make the decision on it and she's just gonna go with it. And I'd rather just deal with it and get over it than. Cause a huge fight.

• 28:28Ramit Sethi?

  Got it.

• 28:28Speaker 02

  Which probably isn't the smartest thing.

• 28:30Ramit Sethi?

  Okay. If you're the sheep in this relationship, what does that make Lauren?

• 28:34Speaker 02

  She's the wolf. She's the bear. She's.

• 28:36Ramit Sethi?

  Wow.

• 28:37Speaker 02

  She's the predator, like.

• 28:38Ramit Sethi?

  She's a predator and you're the prey.

• 28:41Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 28:41Ramit Sethi?

  That's quite an interesting marital arrangement.

• 28:43Speaker 02

  Right, right.

• 28:45Ramit Sethi?

  I don't think I've ever heard that one before. Lauren, do you agree?

• 28:47Speaker 01

  I'm not preying on you.

• 28:49Ramit Sethi?

  If you're animals, what are you and what is he?

• 28:51Speaker 01

  I think I'm like a lioness. I'm strong and independent and I do the hunting.

• 28:58Ramit Sethi?

  And what is he?

• 28:58Speaker 01

  You're the lion. You're just hanging out.

• 29:01Speaker 02

  Well.

• 29:02Ramit Sethi?

  He's the lion.

• 29:02Speaker 01

  Relaxing. Yeah. I'm doing the hunting.

• 29:05Ramit Sethi?

  Okay.

• 29:06Speaker 02

  I wish I was the lion.

• 29:07Ramit Sethi?

  That's interesting.

• 29:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 29:08Ramit Sethi?

  So you're the one who's working, hunting. I think you're intimating about you're making the money.

• 29:15Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 29:16Ramit Sethi?

  And then the lion, the male lion, does what?

• 29:19Speaker 01

  He's like chilling a lot of the time.

• 29:21Speaker 02

  Okay, but now lions, they keep, they keep the den in, in order.

• 29:25Ramit Sethi?

  I feel this animal metaphor has gone way off track.

• 29:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:28Ramit Sethi?

  Like, we all have a different definition of what a lion is. Like, ah, all right. Okay, this is what's actually driving the parent-child dynamic. It's not just about the income gap. It is the stories they have built around it. The stories that we tell ourselves about money can become deeply ingrained in everything we do. And often they don't even reflect the actual numbers. Lauren has a story that goes like this. I work really hard. I make a lot of money, so he needs to work. Okay, that's a story. Another story that's a little deeper for her is, I make all this money, so I get to call the shots. And then we have Rob, whose story is, well, I'll never make as much as Lauren, so what's the point? I can't contribute equally.

• 30:11Ramit Sethi?

  What I find striking is that if we just flipped the genders on this, we would see it in a very different light. Think about it. How would you see this if the genders were reversed? I also think it's quite interesting, and while these stories might be true, they're also irrelevant, because there are plenty of couples where one partner earns way more than the other ever could. So what? That doesn't mean that only the higher earner makes all the rules, that only the higher earner has all the power, that the other person should not work at all because they can never equal what their other partner does. No, it means that we need to go deeper than these superficial stories and ask, what kind of life are we trying to create? Do we even need two incomes? Why? What are the trade-offs?

• 30:56Ramit Sethi?

  What does it mean for the type of rich life we are trying to build? But right now, they're just living here, high up in the clouds, living in stories that may or may not even be true. And anyway, they're irrelevant. I want to live in your rich life, not in some story that you're telling yourself. Now, let's get into the numbers. Rob, can you read off the word in bold and then the number next to it for this entire box, please?

• 31:24Speaker 02

  Sure. So that's assets, $474,094. Investments, $257,316. Savings, $24,000. Debt, $69,992.

• 31:40Ramit Sethi?

  Total net worth?

• 31:41Speaker 02

  Total net worth is, what's that, $685,000 and $418,000.

• 31:47Ramit Sethi?

  $685,000. What do you think about those numbers?

• 31:50Speaker 02

  I like them. I would love them to be more.

• 31:53Speaker 01

  I don't think it's terrible. Like, I, we are in credit card debt, which I am like very proud of because we've had times where we did get in credit card debt. I miss when we were at more like a million dollars, you know? But we have little kids, life, and we have a nice house with a pool.

• 32:12Speaker 02

  It's a nice house.

• 32:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, I just, I feel okay with them, but I want it to grow as we age.

• 32:20Ramit Sethi?

  Got it. And your feeling about these numbers, what word would you use?

• 32:24Speaker 01

  I'm proud that I feel like I didn't just blow my inheritance. And I know that like I've worked really hard my entire life, so. Wish I had more in savings, maybe. I'm not great at saving.

• 32:37Ramit Sethi?

  Hmm. Okay. Let's take a look at the income. This time, Lauren, can you read off your combined gross monthly income, please?

• 32:46Speaker 01

  $13,500.

• 32:49Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, that's $162,000 a year. But I don't think you filled that out correctly because I don't have one partner's gross income. Is that you, Rob?

• 32:59Speaker 02

  Probably. I don't see my, my pension disability up there.

• 33:04Ramit Sethi?

  So that's not right. Do you know the number, Lauren?

• 33:08Speaker 02

  Well, I just looked at this morning. It was about $4,400. That's what I get just from my, my retirement.

• 33:15Speaker 01

  You haven't put your retirement in?

• 33:16Ramit Sethi?

  I don't think that could be because your net is $6,562, so it's, the gross has to be higher.

• 33:22Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. So that's not gross monthly income. Sorry, we messed it up.

• 33:25Ramit Sethi?

  That's okay. Let's just fix it right now. I don't mind if your CSP is wrong. Everybody gets their CSP wrong the first time. It's like learning how to draw for the first time. It's gonna be wrong. Don't worry about it. That's why we get to do this together and I get to show people how to make a few corrections. So no problem at all.

• 33:39Speaker 01

  I don't think we know the gross because.

• 33:42Ramit Sethi?

  If you tell me the net, we can.

• 33:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, one part's taxed, one part's not.

• 33:46Ramit Sethi?

  So just for easy math, I don't want to do this part's taxed and this part's not. It's just too confusing. Let's just ballpark it and say like $9,000 a month gross.

• 33:53Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 33:54Ramit Sethi?

  Gross, that's everything, minus taxes, blah, blah, blah. It's fine. That tells me that ballpark, your household income is like $250,000 to $270,000 a year. Did you know that? From the looks on your faces, I think the answer is no.

• 34:09Speaker 02

  No.

• 34:09Speaker 01

  No.

• 34:10Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, what does that tell you?

• 34:12Speaker 01

  We're doing okay. The fact that we don't know it is pretty, which is kind of crazy, I feel like, because I'm always so like on the spreadsheet that I'm surprised that I didn't know it.

• 34:23Ramit Sethi?

  I see this multiple times a month.

• 34:25Speaker 01

  Well, I think just one other part is probably like the, I mean, that's only maybe $24,000 a year, but the two grand a month is like pretty new for me working.

• 34:35Ramit Sethi?

  Lauren, how much did you think your income was, household?

• 34:38Speaker 01

  I thought we were like a little over 200, so.

• 34:41Ramit Sethi?

  You're off by 50 to 70,000 dollars.

• 34:43Speaker 01

  I know.

• 34:44Ramit Sethi?

  If you're making 70K more than you thought you were, you should what?

• 34:49Speaker 01

  Know it and feel better.

• 34:50Ramit Sethi?

  You should feel better. Do you feel better now that you discovered you just?

• 34:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:53Ramit Sethi?

  You do?

• 34:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:54Ramit Sethi?

  Because it didn't change any of the rest of your financial situation.

• 34:57Speaker 01

  No, I mean, I guess just overall thinking, I just didn't think it was that high.

• 35:03Ramit Sethi?

  Okay. Rob?

• 35:04Speaker 02

  I look at it and I'm like, it's that high? What?

• 35:07Speaker 01

  Where is it going?

• 35:08Ramit Sethi?

  What do you think?

• 35:09Speaker 02

  I, I, well.

• 35:11Speaker 01

  There's some mindless stuff.

• 35:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, definitely fixed costs that we could, that we're not realizing is sucking us dry.

• 35:19Speaker 01

  I don't think it's fixed costs. I think it's like occasional things here and there that we buy.

• 35:23Ramit Sethi?

  Can I just point something out that happened? Didn't you come on the show, Lauren, wanting to reduce your fixed costs?

• 35:27Speaker 01

  Well, I don't think cutting down the costs. I think adding his income to decrease our percentage is what I was thinking about with.

• 35:37Speaker 02

  Right, but on that spreadsheet, he has my income and it's showing 270.

• 35:42Ramit Sethi?

  270 for both of you.

• 35:44Speaker 02

  Right.

• 35:44Ramit Sethi?

  Not for one.

• 35:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:46Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, let's continue. Your fixed costs are, what's that number?

• 35:52Speaker 01

  81%.

• 35:53Ramit Sethi?

  What do you think of that?

• 35:55Speaker 01

  It's too high.

• 35:56Ramit Sethi?

  It's too high. It's, it's too high for two reasons. Number one, that number should be ideally, in my opinion, between 50 to 60%. Two, you all make a ton of money. So when you make a ton of money, that number naturally comes down because the price of bread is the price of bread. Even if you get a really nice house, generally your fixed costs will come down as your income goes. So why is it so high? We're gonna dig into that. Your investments are at zero, although you do contribute $500 a month to a 401K. So effectively, you're investing $6,000 a year. That's it.

• 36:33Speaker 02

  That's my scariest thing. When I look at those, I don't know if I've ever really told her that either.

• 36:39Ramit Sethi?

  Why don't you tell her right now?

• 36:40Speaker 02

  It is scary that, you know, we have your inheritance and a 401K and that's basically our retirement fund, which isn't really great.

• 36:53Ramit Sethi?

  Why does it scare you, Rob?

• 36:54Speaker 02

  Ah, because, you know, I always try to be the, ah, we're okay, like, which probably is not good because that probably helped build that resentment that you had towards me because I never gave you the validation of that fear because it's there. I have it. We need to fix it.

• 37:20Ramit Sethi?

  What do you think, Lauren?

• 37:21Speaker 01

  I'm baffled because I'm the only one investing. He's not putting any money into investments. We have the security of his pension, which won't go away, of like $4,400 a month, but I'm baffled. He's worried about investments, but he doesn't invest. He doesn't contribute anything to investments. It's just me.

• 37:43Speaker 02

  Because I, I don't know how or what would be the best way to do it.

• 37:50Ramit Sethi?

  It's not about tactics.

• 37:52Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, I think I could contribute a higher percentage.

• 37:55Ramit Sethi?

  It's not about tactics. I don't care about that.

• 37:57Speaker 01

  But like.

• 37:58Ramit Sethi?

  You're baffled?

• 37:59Speaker 01

  I'm baffled because I've never heard you say that.

• 38:03Ramit Sethi?

  Why is that?

• 38:04Speaker 01

  Because we haven't talked about it. Well.

• 38:06Ramit Sethi?

  Why?

• 38:06Speaker 01

  Because we're afraid to.

• 38:08Ramit Sethi?

  Why?

• 38:09Speaker 01

  Because, I mean, I do talk about investments a lot.

• 38:12Ramit Sethi?

  Why are you afraid?

• 38:13Speaker 01

  Why are we afraid? Because we don't want the other person to just. I don't know.

• 38:20Ramit Sethi?

  Stay on that. You're on to something.

• 38:22Speaker 01

  Because there's always like a backlash or a conflict that comes up.

• 38:29Ramit Sethi?

  And so what do you do instead?

• 38:31Speaker 01

  You just avoid talking about it.

• 38:32Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah.

• 38:33Speaker 01

  Spend it without consulting.

• 38:36Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah.

• 38:36Speaker 02

  Even though we got what we wanted, we still aren't on the same page about it. One person feels validated and the other one is dealing with the aftermath.

• 38:47Ramit Sethi?

  Do you see how many threads there are to pull on this? You have built up these defense mechanisms, just layers and layers of it. And what I'm trying to get at is what's the actual vision that the two of you want? And I don't even think you realize it.

• 39:00Speaker 01

  It's been kind of sad.

• 39:02Speaker 02

  Somewhat accurate, yeah. Like, I can't sometimes tell her no. She's just gonna jab me and do it.

• 39:09Ramit Sethi?

  And do you do the same thing to her? Like, I look at the application. Lauren, you're like, feel resentment. We've talked about divorce, which is as strong as it gets. I'm like, oh, my God, this is serious. And then Lauren, I hear you go, well, it's actually not that bad. You know, he's got a job in the last few months, so we're better than ever. Like, okay, both of those can be true. But if you bring up the word resentment and divorce, that doesn't disappear in a few months. So I hear confusing mixed messages. I can't imagine what that confusion is like in your relationship.

• 39:44Speaker 01

  I wouldn't say we're better than ever. I would say things are improving.

• 39:49Ramit Sethi?

  Okay.

• 39:50Speaker 01

  And I think for me, I have, we have cut some things out of the fixed costs. My vision of how to lower our fixed costs is for Rob to bring in more money.

• 40:03Ramit Sethi?

  And you mentioned that in your application several times.

• 40:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:06Ramit Sethi?

  He needs to work, which he is. So in addition to that, Rob working, we discovered that the two of you make $50,000 to $70,000 more per year than you thought you did. So isn't that what you wanted, more money?

• 40:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm still like a little confused on it. Like, I still am like, do we really make that much?

• 40:27Ramit Sethi?

  Well, let's assume that it's correct because your net monthly income is $17,000.

• 40:32Speaker 01

  Which is correct, yeah.

• 40:33Ramit Sethi?

  That's $204,000 a year, net. That's a huge amount of money, especially in the area that you live in. So you all are making a lot of money. So is that it? Because that was the number one thing you wanted, at least in the application, was Rob should work more. Rob's working, your income is very high. Are we done?

• 40:55Speaker 01

  No, still like, even with the money that we do have, what we do with it and making that decision together.

• 41:02Ramit Sethi?

  Yes. This is not an income problem. I think you presented it as an income problem. And I think there are some really valid reasons to talk about that. If one person's working 60 hours a week and the other is not working at all, that can be a problem, I can see that. But you camouflaged it with, we need Rob to make more income. You all make a lot of money. How you make that money, we can discuss. How you spend it, we should discuss. But if you are fixated on this is the solution, Rob could work 40 or 50 hours a week, and I don't actually think that would solve these problems.

• 41:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:42Ramit Sethi?

  I'm actually kind of frustrated in parts of these conversations. I'm frustrated right now. So to make them understand the stakes here, I'm having to ask some really tough questions. Lauren, what do you mean? Why, why, why? And I know it can seem aggressive, but I'm doing it for a very specific reason. Yes, a little bit is that I'm frustrated, but I don't want to let them take the easy way out. I'm not gonna let that happen. You can tell a lot about a business owner just in the first few minutes of talking to them. For example, if they are scattered, if they have no plan, if they are hyper focused on the next shiny object, that kind of tells you a lot. On the other hand, if they are focused, cool, methodical, you can tell that they focus on what they can control.

• 42:27Ramit Sethi?

  Now, if you are a business owner, I recommend you focus on what you can control. That's why I recommend small business owners work with Gusto, this episode's sponsor. Gusto is online payroll and benefit software built for small businesses. It's all in one, it's remote friendly, and it is incredibly easy to use. So you can pay, hire, onboard, and support your team from anywhere. Whether you need help with automatic payroll tax filing, simple direct deposits, health benefits, commuter benefits, workers' comp, or 401k matches, Gusto makes it simple and has solutions for nearly every budget. It also helps you save time with automated tools built right in, like offer letters, onboarding materials, all of these things, so you don't have to create everything yourself from scratch. Plus, it's simple to switch.

• 43:12Ramit Sethi?

  Just transfer your existing data to their system and you're good to go. Try Gusto today at gusto.com/ramit and get three months free when you run your first payroll. That's three months of free payroll at gusto.com/ramit. One more time, gusto.com/ramit. It's kind of interesting how people react differently to caffeine. Some people get super jittery with coffee, some people prefer tea. I've found it to be really fun to try to test different sources of caffeine and find what works for me. Sometimes it's a black coffee, sometimes it's matcha. And there's a new way for you to try out a different source of caffeine, one that will not cause you to have a massive energy crash. That's Element's new Lemonade Iced Tea.

• 43:58Ramit Sethi?

  Element is a tasty electrolyte drink mix and sparkling electrolyte drink made specifically to replace essential electrolytes lost throughout the day. It's used by professional sports teams, Navy SEALs, Olympic athletes, and my wife loves it. Now, Element has launched their Lemonade Iced Tea made with full-spectrum black tea extract, not isolated caffeine added in later. It's built on the same formula as Element's core drink mix, with a meaningful dose of electrolytes, no sugar, no artificial colors, no other weird ingredients. Get a free eight-count Element sample pack with any purchase at drinklmnt.com/ramit. That's drinklmnt.com/ramit. Try it totally risk-free.

• 44:42Ramit Sethi?

  If you don't like it, they'll give you your money back, no questions asked. Let's go through the numbers and finish off here. Savings are at zero.

• 44:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, we're not putting money towards savings.

• 44:52Ramit Sethi?

  You have less than two months of savings. And guilt-free spending, how come it's zeroed out?

• 45:01Speaker 01

  I feel like I didn't complete it.

• 45:03Ramit Sethi?

  How much do you think you're spending on discretionary stuff every month?

• 45:05Speaker 01

  Geez, two or three grand? I don't know, it fluctuates month to month, probably.

• 45:10Ramit Sethi?

  What would be some of those examples of things you might spend discretionary on a given month?

• 45:16Speaker 01

  Right, well, like, the bounce house was from extra income, but like, traveling, Disney. I mean, we did have about twice as much in savings and just had to pay our taxes, which was a huge chunk.

• 45:31Ramit Sethi?

  We're gonna fix the guilt-free spending, just to see what the number might look like. If these numbers were 100% correct, that means the two of you are spending $3,270 a month on guilt-free spending. That would be travel, bounce house, Disney trips, any eating out, all of that stuff. 3,000 bucks a month. Does that surprise you?

• 45:57Speaker 01

  No, I think that sounds maybe about right to me.

• 46:01Ramit Sethi?

  Have you been dipping into savings?

• 46:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, we had other properties that we sold. We had rental properties. So this, like, situation we're now is kind of like where all the chips fell. Like, we, we had a place in Florida that we sold last year. And the value on that dropped about 100 grand from, you know, a few years ago, and I wanted to sell it. So we've, you know, we've had some losses.

• 46:29Ramit Sethi?

  So have you been dipping into savings?

• 46:32Speaker 01

  Just for our recent tax, taxes, yeah.

• 46:36Ramit Sethi?

  Other than that?

• 46:37Speaker 01

  No, we could pay the month-to-month bills.

• 46:40Ramit Sethi?

  How much did you dip into savings for taxes?

• 46:43Speaker 01

  It was about 20 grand.

• 46:45Ramit Sethi?

  Okay. Now that we've looked at the CSP, what is your assessment of the numbers?

• 46:50Speaker 01

  I think it's okay. I mean, we don't have big debt payments. We don't have credit card where we're like spending all that money on interest.

• 46:58Ramit Sethi?

  Okay.

• 46:59Speaker 01

  Like, I'm glad we're not at over 100%, like, spending more than we make, but I think we could do a lot better. And also, like, we have two kids in daycare. So one, we're gonna stop having to pay that in September. And then another one, the other one, that'll be actually a couple of years later. So I kind of see that in the future. Like, I calculated our fixed costs with one less daycare bill. You know, it's like, when you have little kids, it's a high cost time in life, I feel like.

• 47:27Ramit Sethi?

  Okay. What do you, what's your assessment, Rob?

• 47:29Speaker 02

  I think it looks good, but it could definitely be better.

• 47:35Ramit Sethi?

  Okay.

• 47:37Ramit Sethi?

  Let's look at the fixed costs for a second. So your mortgage is $3,813, which is 22% of gross. That's good, that's good. We like to see that number below 28%. 22% is great. Yeah, good job. Your car payment is $1,715. What's that?

• 48:00Speaker 01

  Yeah. I took about 15,000 out, right? I took the big loan and then paid off a lot of it. So my payment's kind of high, but it will be paid off in not too long.

• 48:11Ramit Sethi?

  Can, can we be specific? How high is your car?

• 48:13Speaker 01

  It's like 800 a month.

• 48:15Ramit Sethi?

  800, okay. And Rob, do you have a car payment as well?

• 48:17Speaker 02

  I do.

• 48:18Ramit Sethi?

  How much?

• 48:18Speaker 02

  600.

• 48:19Ramit Sethi?

  Okay. What kind of cars?

• 48:22Speaker 01

  I have a Tesla Model X.

• 48:25Speaker 02

  I have a Kia Carnival, a minivan.

• 48:28Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, got it, all right. I mean, honestly, with your income, you should easily be able to afford that. So let's look at what the rest of the fixed costs are. We have debt payments of 392. What's that for?

• 48:42Speaker 01

  That's just our solar loan.

• 48:44Ramit Sethi?

  Ah, groceries are at 2,000 a month?

• 48:48Speaker 01

  I think that's about what we spend on food. I probably entered it incorrectly.

• 48:53Speaker 02

  I don't think, I've, 2,000.

• 48:55Speaker 01

  I was kind of including like, I guess, like, if I get lunch at work and stuff, but that wouldn't.

• 49:01Ramit Sethi?

  That would go under guilt-free spending.

• 49:02Speaker 01

  Different one, yeah.

• 49:03Ramit Sethi?

  Help me understand this. You track the money, what do you use to track all this stuff?

• 49:07Speaker 01

  Like, I could have pulled up probably all the money we spend at like BJ's, Walmart, you know, and I didn't.

• 49:13Ramit Sethi?

  Why?

• 49:13Speaker 01

  Probably because I didn't have time. I work a million hours.

• 49:17Ramit Sethi?

  What about asking Rob to help?

• 49:19Speaker 01

  I don't know if it would have gone down. I don't know, sometimes I feel like I ask him to do things and it just. Never gets done.

• 49:26Ramit Sethi?

  Mm hmm. And is this with money specifically?

• 49:31Speaker 01

  Uh, with like different things.

• 49:33Ramit Sethi?

  That's specifically what.

• 49:34Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, there was like, when he wasn't working much, I was like, okay, I can hustle and work a lot, but I need you to keep up the house.

• 49:41Ramit Sethi?

  Mm hmm.

• 49:41Speaker 01

  And he always is like, okay, you want everything perfect in the house. I don't keep it up to your standards, but like, no, he wasn't doing anything around the house. So I'd come home after working, he's not working, the house is a mess. Yeah, it was pretty aggravated.

• 49:55Ramit Sethi?

  What about money, though?

• 49:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, he just, he doesn't manage the money at all, really.

• 50:00Ramit Sethi?

  What does managing the money mean to you?

• 50:02Speaker 01

  Just knowing like what's coming in and what's going out.

• 50:05Ramit Sethi?

  Just paying the bills.

• 50:06Speaker 01

  Paying the bills. He, he gets his pension income and like, you know, will pay off the credit card sometimes if it goes up. But other than that, he's got a small amount of bills that he pays.

• 50:16Ramit Sethi?

  Mm hmm.

• 50:16Speaker 01

  So he does not do a lot.

• 50:18Speaker 02

  She does a lot of the finances on it, like well, once a month almost without fail. It's like, okay, what, what's our credit card bills? What's that? And it's.

• 50:28Speaker 01

  I think I just kind of do it. And if he showed interest in it, I would probably like do it together with him. But he doesn't really, and then I just like to be in control. So I think I just.

• 50:39Speaker 02

  I'm interested, and I think it's just more of laziness, like, oh, she's gonna do it. So I'll just tell her what she needs to know and then she'll print it out and she'll show it to me and I'll be like, okay.

• 50:48Ramit Sethi?

  I'm gonna give you some feedback. Managing the money means having a vision for what we want in our rich life. Managing the money means knowing our four key numbers cold. Managing the money means we are using our money to make sure we are living our rich life. And that means, are we investing enough? Are we saving enough? Are we actually spending on the things we love? That's managing money, not making sure that our mortgage bill gets paid every month.

• 51:20Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 51:21Ramit Sethi?

  How long have you been focused on the day to day?

• 51:23Speaker 01

  A while, I think since we bought like the investment houses and stuff and started to have less like liquid. Then we had to kind of watch the day to day. And there was like, you know, definitely times we were living like paycheck to paycheck.

• 51:39Ramit Sethi?

  But when was the last time you looked at the big picture?

• 51:42Speaker 01

  Well, I feel like I've been worried about the big picture for years.

• 51:47Ramit Sethi?

  Worrying is not.

• 51:48Speaker 01

  I know, but it's like pulling from pulling teeth, you know, to get Rob to actually work has been difficult.

• 51:57Ramit Sethi?

  And that was the number one thing you wanted, Rob to work.

• 52:01Speaker 01

  That was a big, yeah.

• 52:02Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, so Rob's working.

• 52:03Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 52:04Ramit Sethi?

  And I don't want to skip over the frustration because getting a partner to work when you are working a crazy amount of hours, that is not easy. That's frustrating.

• 52:13Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 52:13Ramit Sethi?

  So Rob's working. Did you magically know the big picture of your money now?

• 52:18Speaker 01

  I guess not, I don't know.

• 52:20Ramit Sethi?

  I don't know, has it changed anything?

• 52:22Speaker 01

  No, because I don't really know where the income that he's making is going either.

• 52:26Ramit Sethi?

  Why not?

• 52:27Speaker 01

  We don't use a joint account, really.

• 52:28Ramit Sethi?

  Are you both a team?

• 52:29Speaker 01

  I think we wanna be. I feel like I've been carrying the weight for a long time.

• 52:35Speaker 02

  Uh, she definitely is the, the money maker of the family. So she definitely carries the more of the financial burden for sure.

• 52:45Ramit Sethi?

  Well, she makes more money.

• 52:46Speaker 02

  Right.

• 52:46Ramit Sethi?

  Let's be clear, but she also, in her own words, manages the money.

• 52:51Speaker 02

  Right.

• 52:51Ramit Sethi?

  And in her words, she's asked you to participate and you haven't. You're not functioning as a team and it leads directly to Lauren feeling like she's doing it alone.

• 53:01Speaker 01

  I feel like I had to like dangle the carrot of being like, you know, if you work, we could maybe save towards, we wanna go to Disney in Hawaii. Like, I feel like I had to like make a goal that he's interested in.

• 53:14Ramit Sethi?

  It's the same thing that you did with the sauna.

• 53:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:18Ramit Sethi?

  You have something you want and then you, your role as you see it is to convince him because you know that his role is gonna be to say, no.

• 53:28Speaker 01

  I think it's hard for me to take the no seriously when he's not working. But I knew, I know, now he's working, I'm happy about it.

• 53:36Ramit Sethi?

  No, that, I, I think you are right that it is hard for you to take him seriously. I agree with that. I think that's actually extremely honest. But I think that you misinterpret that it's a lack of him working because he's working and you have not changed the way that you think about money, feel about money, or even feel about him.

• 53:54Speaker 01

  I mean, there's other reasons too. He was sitting home, he was totally inactive.

• 53:59Ramit Sethi?

  Which means what?

• 54:00Speaker 01

  Unhappy, like he wasn't happy and fulfilled.

• 54:03Ramit Sethi?

  But let's talk about you.

• 54:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:05Ramit Sethi?

  What, what did it mean to you?

• 54:06Speaker 01

  It meant I was getting very resentful coming home and seeing him sitting on the couch.

• 54:10Ramit Sethi?

  Because?

• 54:11Speaker 01

  Because I'm out there busting my ass.

• 54:13Ramit Sethi?

  And he?

• 54:14Speaker 01

  Is sitting on the couch watching TV all day. It's like, it doesn't, didn't matter to him that we increase our, like, wealth.

• 54:23Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah.

• 54:23Speaker 01

  You know, it doesn't matter, it's almost like he doesn't care that I work 60 hours a week.

• 54:28Ramit Sethi?

  Right.

• 54:28Speaker 01

  You know?

• 54:29Speaker 02

  I can see how that would pay out, like she would come home, see me sitting on my ass and she just got done working her ass off and it doesn't validate what she's doing to provide, especially when I'm not contributing. I think I relied too much with, oh, I get my pension and throw that out and she, yeah. It took a while, yes, it took a while for me to open up and see like that was.

• 54:59Ramit Sethi?

  How long?

• 55:00Speaker 02

  Um.

• 55:01Speaker 01

  From 21 to 25, so four and a half years.

• 55:04Ramit Sethi?

  Things don't magically change overnight when somebody does something you want. I suspect that the two of you did not talk about it seriously. What does this mean? Why did I actually want him to work? At the same time, the two of you have to find a way to look forward instead of looking back. Because how many other marriages do you know where they spend their entire rest of their life together, just resentful about something that happened 10 years ago, 20 years ago?

• 55:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 55:30Ramit Sethi?

  You both seem like, wow, you're nodding your head. You know a lot of people like that?

• 55:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I know Aunt Tatyas.

• 55:35Ramit Sethi?

  But it is you today. My take on this is that until you two work through this, none of the rest of it matters. What I see are two key things that are at play here. First of all, they have no vision for what their money is, no shared vision whatsoever. It's him versus her and that's it. Second, they have no shared infrastructure. Their accounts aren't joined, the way they look at money is not the same. And if you take a lack of vision, a lack of infrastructure, it's no surprise that they are disconnected about money. If you were in my chair right now, what would you do? What would your plan of attack be? I wanna understand how you grew up.

• 56:19Ramit Sethi?

  Lauren, what do you remember your family saying about money when you were a kid?

• 56:23Speaker 01

  This is where like it all stems from. So, you know, growing up, like we, we had a nice, I would say like upper middle class. We lived in a nice home, we had a pool. But it was kind of like everything looked great on the outside and was not great on the inside.

• 56:39Ramit Sethi?

  Mm hmm.

• 56:40Speaker 01

  Like, my dad's family grew up very poor but built a business, my grandfather, and then they did very well. And then my dad worked really hard, like everyone in my family worked very hard. My dad was very controlling with money. So my mom always made a point to say like, get your education, don't depend on a man for money. And I have like stuck to that.

• 57:03Ramit Sethi?

  Get your education and what was the thing about men?

• 57:07Speaker 01

  Just like, don't depend on a man for money. Cause I feel like she felt very stuck because she didn't make a lot of, she worked. Like, he always made her work, but she didn't make a lot of money.

• 57:16Ramit Sethi?

  Do you think that is good advice or bad advice?

• 57:20Speaker 01

  To not depend on a man for money, I think that's good advice.

• 57:23Ramit Sethi?

  Okay.

• 57:23Speaker 01

  It's probably made me a little too independent, but.

• 57:26Ramit Sethi?

  What does that mean?

• 57:27Speaker 01

  It's made it hard for me to like manage money in a relationship and like open up

• 57:35Speaker 01

  and let things be like ours.

• 57:37Ramit Sethi?

  Mm hmm. So things like opening up a joint account?

• 57:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, just, I have this feeling of like, if I'm working so hard and like I want something, especially because most of the time I don't feel like it's for me, but I know I need to like ease up or let go of that.

• 57:53Ramit Sethi?

  If the roles were reversed and let's say it's me and I'm working 60 hours a week and I'm making a lot of money and my wife was a stay at home mom, but the kids are a little older and I'm like, you need to work. And she's like, uh, she takes a couple of years and then she gets a job working 20, 30 hours a week. And so when I see something I want, like a hundred fifty thousand dollar pool, I go, I'm just gonna get it. What would you say about that?

• 58:21Speaker 01

  Maybe not the best decision.

• 58:23Ramit Sethi?

  Really, why?

• 58:24Speaker 01

  Approach.

• 58:24Ramit Sethi?

  I mean, I'm the one who's making the money, I'm working all the hours. Why is that not the best approach?

• 58:30Speaker 01

  Because it's just gonna make the other partner resentful and feel invalidated and it's gonna cause a lot of conflict, stress.

• 58:42Ramit Sethi?

  What are you seeing as you say that?

• 58:44Speaker 01

  Just like looking at Rob seeing that, like, I don't know, it makes me sad.

• 58:50Ramit Sethi?

  You wanna tell it?

• 58:51Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, it makes me sad that you felt like invalidated and.

• 58:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's about all I got.

• 59:01Ramit Sethi?

  It's okay. That's great. Rob, how do you feel hearing that?

• 59:04Speaker 02

  It means a lot because now she sees it from my eyes. You know, during this conversation, I see how she didn't feel validated either.

• 59:13Ramit Sethi?

  Tell her.

• 59:14Speaker 02

  I see it. We're in this together. I get you work a lot, so you feel like you should do things, but I'm here too. I'm trying to contribute to our team.

• 59:29Ramit Sethi?

  Do you two talk like that a lot?

• 59:31Speaker 01

  Depends how often we're going to therapy.

• 59:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 59:34Ramit Sethi?

  How often is that?

• 59:35Speaker 01

  Um, right now, we probably don't go like super often, maybe like once a month.

• 59:40Speaker 02

  We were trying to do it once a month, maybe twice a month.

• 59:42Ramit Sethi?

  Once a month?

• 59:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:44Ramit Sethi?

  If I made $204,000 in net, I'd be going at least once a week.

• 59:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, I know. It's like, I'm not saying everything's great now, but it really helped us get from that bad.

• 59:53Ramit Sethi?

  I'm glad.

• 59:54Speaker 01

  Last year to.

• 59:55Speaker 02

  And I, you know, I think sometimes she is afraid to ask me about it.

• 1:00:00Speaker 01

  About knowing more?

• 1:00:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, and I'm always like, okay, let's do it. But I think.

• 1:00:05Ramit Sethi?

  I feel that this passive thing is not working, Rob. Like, why is she the one bringing it up and she's the one asking and she's the one proposing? Rob, part of the whole crux of today is you recognizing your passivity and actually stepping up and saying, I'm ready to be an equal partner in this relationship. Equal does not mean you have to earn as much as her. Equal means you have to be an equal partner, presents, proposals, driving things. Why does she have to be the one driving therapy?

• 1:00:33Speaker 02

  That's true. I guess I could.

• 1:00:35Speaker 01

  And in therapy, we were just talking about the same thing over and over because he wasn't making the changes. And the therapist would be like, we're back here again.

• 1:00:43Ramit Sethi?

  That's like this conversation.

• 1:00:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:00:47Ramit Sethi?

  So what's the strategy going forward? Because asking, begging, pleading, and then just like buying stuff and not telling you, that doesn't work.

• 1:00:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:00:56Ramit Sethi?

  What's the strategy here?

• 1:00:57Speaker 01

  Joining our money into a joint account.

• 1:01:00Ramit Sethi?

  Yes. What else?

• 1:01:02Speaker 02

  Therapy.

• 1:01:03Ramit Sethi?

  Definitely. Good. Keep going. I like this.

• 1:01:06Speaker 01

  You working consistently.

• 1:01:07Speaker 02

  Right, which I enjoy working again.

• 1:01:11Ramit Sethi?

  Yes, and now, now, go back to her now. She said, you need to work, and you're like, I am working, and now tell her what you need from her.

• 1:01:19Speaker 02

  You know, I need you to realize that I'm never gonna be at the same level of income, so.

• 1:01:25Speaker 01

  I realize that.

• 1:01:27Ramit Sethi?

  Rob, why don't you tell her, I need you to recognize that I am working. I need to take responsibility for not working for years. Yes, but now I am, and I need you to rewrite that story that you are bringing into this conversation. Tell her that.

• 1:01:41Speaker 02

  Right, because you say it a lot when, you know, I need Rob to work. I am working. I'm gonna work as much as I can.

• 1:01:51Ramit Sethi?

  I think, Rob, you find it difficult to, to really say what you want. That's a pattern I've noticed. That's what therapy is for. But are you hearing what Rob wants?

• 1:02:02Speaker 01

  For me to stop saying like, I need him to work.

• 1:02:04Ramit Sethi?

  Yes. You're operating on an old story.

• 1:02:07Speaker 01

  It's not that old.

• 1:02:09Ramit Sethi?

  Oh, okay, so it's still here, so then you should keep going.

• 1:02:12Speaker 01

  It's just, I think with time and consistency, I'll like, I'm hearing that I need to stop. But, you know, a month ago, it was, well, I can't work Monday, Wednesday, or Friday because I need to go to the gym at noon.

• 1:02:28Ramit Sethi?

  That's not acceptable.

• 1:02:29Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:02:30Speaker 02

  Right, and I changed it.

• 1:02:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, so now he's going earlier in the morning. So like, great, I'm seeing changes, it's great. But after years of asking and begging, it takes a little time for me to.

• 1:02:39Ramit Sethi?

  Totally agree.

• 1:02:41Speaker 01

  To buy.

• 1:02:41Ramit Sethi?

  I think the key here is that the two of you have not really grappled with what has happened, both of you. And so like, you can't get over this resentment, and you come in here, you're like, oh, we just need like some more money and this and that. Like, that's not, this has nothing to do with this. Like, and then you're not in therapy, so how are you gonna fix it?

• 1:02:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:02:59Ramit Sethi?

  We need to rebuild this piece by piece. And it can't be one person driving it because it's been like way, at least financially, for a long time. And it actually has not gotten you the results you want. So if it's me, steps in this order. Number one, therapy once a week. And Rob, you're the one driving that, scheduling it, et cetera. Two, it's money conversations once a week. And each of you is rotating. One of you can do it for once a month, the other can do it for the next month for those four meetings. And you're driving it using the Money for Couples agenda. You're flagging the numbers, you're talking about how you feel, and you're actually using that time as well to reflect on the things you learned in therapy and apply them to your finances.

• 1:03:43Ramit Sethi?

  And then it's actually coming up with your vision of a rich life and using your money to live it. One, two, three. Do you think you could do that?

• 1:03:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:53Ramit Sethi?

  Cool. It takes a lot, but I think you could as well. Rob, can you tell me what you remember about your family saying when you grew up about money?

• 1:04:02Speaker 02

  Almost a complete one eighty of Lauren's upbringing. Only child, my dad died young. I was in seventh grade, cancer. My mom and dad, not college educated. Mom is GD. You know, they just, she works at a nurse, she, well, not anymore. She worked at a nursing home. He built tombstones, so, you know, life was good, you know, as far as I could tell. You know, my, you know, my cousins, they had more money and stuff, but never felt like ostracized for that from the family, you know. I didn't have a lot of toys growing up, lived in a very small house.

• 1:04:45Ramit Sethi?

  Were you poor?

• 1:04:47Speaker 02

  I don't know if I would say I was poor. Very low income.

• 1:04:54Ramit Sethi?

  Like how low?

• 1:04:55Speaker 02

  There was no, I never felt like, at least my mom never made me feel like it, like we were struggling to eat or clothe or be evicted from the house.

• 1:05:04Ramit Sethi?

  Okay.

• 1:05:05Speaker 02

  But, you know, I knew not to ask for the newest, shiniest thing because I didn't want to have my mom struggle to get it or have her tell me, no, like, we can't afford it. I started working 14 at any off the book jobs, like sweeping a candy store. The guy would pay me a few dollars, just anything, just to, to bring in money to, you know, to help my mom out.

• 1:05:31Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:32Speaker 02

  The family wouldn't have let us struggle, but there was definitely times where, you know, my cousins would go on vacations and we didn't go. And it's funny, you know, I'm a big Disney guy now, but growing up, we went once. And that's basically all we could afford.

• 1:05:49Ramit Sethi?

  What did it mean to you to go to Disney as a kid?

• 1:05:52Speaker 02

  It was great. It was a family trip, you know, it was, there's still pictures hanging up on the wall of all the family down there, you know. It wasn't just me and my mom and dad, it was my aunts and uncles and cousins. So it was like a family vacation.

• 1:06:07Ramit Sethi?

  And now that you are a Disney guy, what does that mean?

• 1:06:10Speaker 02

  I love bringing the kids there. The kids love it too, you know. They're not the biggest ride goers, but the nostalgia and just the magic, they get swept up and it's fun seeing.

• 1:06:22Ramit Sethi?

  How often have you gone?

• 1:06:23Speaker 02

  Oh, it's been a while for a fam. I just came back because I did a run weekend. As a family, it's been a couple of years, uh, two, two years since we all went together.

• 1:06:35Ramit Sethi?

  Okay. Is that a long time or a little?

• 1:06:37Speaker 02

  It's a long time in retrospect, we, for a while, because we had a, a house down in Margaritaville, so we were there quite a bit, you know.

• 1:06:46Ramit Sethi?

  How often would you go?

• 1:06:48Speaker 01

  Six times in one year.

• 1:06:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, we went about six times in one year.

• 1:06:51Ramit Sethi?

  Okay. Anything else about your family growing up with money? Anything happen when you were a teenager with money?

• 1:06:57Speaker 02

  I mean, the biggest thing I can think of is that I was supposed to go to away to school. And, you know, I overheard my mom saying, talking to her sister, like, oh, that financial aid that I was counting on didn't come, so I don't think we can afford it. And I just kind of heard her and said, that's okay, ma, I'll just go to community college. But that only lasted like two semesters, and I didn't think it was working, so I joined the Navy and.

• 1:07:24Ramit Sethi?

  How long were you in the Navy for?

• 1:07:25Speaker 02

  20 years.

• 1:07:26Ramit Sethi?

  Okay. The way you tell the story about money growing up is kind of like, yeah, like some things happened, it was tough, but like, it's fine. That's the energy I get. Would you say that that's accurate?

• 1:07:40Speaker 02

  Yes, it's just, we always made it, and that's just how I look at it, you know. I kind of, you know, I don't want the, I would never want my kids to have to be raised like that. And I've told her that, like, you know, I want my kids to have more than I did. But what I had when I grew up was fine because I'm, I'm happy, I'm alive, I'm.

• 1:08:04Ramit Sethi?

  Are your kids on track to be raised like that or different?

• 1:08:07Speaker 02

  Different. They're definitely well provided for.

• 1:08:10Ramit Sethi?

  Anything that you want to add? Sometimes a partner knows best.

• 1:08:13Speaker 01

  Um, just that, you know, even if his mom didn't make a lot, she really hustled. I know she was a really hard worker, and so she did make things work. And she's done like well for herself, and his parents are very generous and help us out with things with the kids and stuff.

• 1:08:29Ramit Sethi?

  Like what?

• 1:08:30Speaker 01

  Um, like they bought us a basketball hoop. They, you know, when they have money that they can spend on us and the grandkids, like I know it makes them happy to do so.

• 1:08:44Ramit Sethi?

  His mom was a hustler, worked really hard, kind of like you.

• 1:08:49Speaker 02

  I think that's why I married Lauren.

• 1:08:53Speaker 01

  Sometimes it makes me wonder like why she didn't put the fire under him a little more. I mean, he did go in the Navy for 20 years, but overall, I don't feel like this, we don't have like the same drive.

• 1:09:03Ramit Sethi?

  Do you both acknowledge that?

• 1:09:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, totally.

• 1:09:07Ramit Sethi?

  That's okay. As, as long as you both accept what the implications are.

• 1:09:12Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:09:13Ramit Sethi?

  Two people of a different drive can totally have a happy relationship. I'm not sure that you have accepted it. Do you think you have?

• 1:09:21Speaker 01

  No, I'm not happy with the lack of drive.

• 1:09:24Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, did you know it when you got married?

• 1:09:26Speaker 01

  Not so much, because we got married just a couple of years into dating and it was like, I mean, I didn't have the best picker before, so just the fact that he was like in the Navy and had stable employment, I was like, you know.

• 1:09:39Ramit Sethi?

  Do you think that, you mentioned, I wonder why Rob's mom didn't give him more drive. Do you think that you are giving your children that drive?

• 1:09:47Speaker 01

  That's tough. I hope so. He would probably say no, because he kind of thinks that they're like catered to and, you know, I hope that they see how hard I work to like provide everything for us.

• 1:09:59Ramit Sethi?

  Well, maybe they do, but then maybe they just go and marry somebody who does the same thing.

• 1:10:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:10:04Ramit Sethi?

  Kind of like what's happened here.

• 1:10:06Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, he often will kind of say like, well, like if the kids get to do something or have something that I bought, he'll say like, well, I grew up poor. We didn't have that. And I feel like that's used a lot as like a, almost like a little stab. And it's like, I didn't grow up like rich, you know, but like I also started working at 14. Everyone in my family, same thing.

• 1:10:30Ramit Sethi?

  This is so interesting. This is it right here.

• 1:10:32Speaker 01

  Going off.

• 1:10:33Ramit Sethi?

  No, that's really helpful. Because Rob, you know, you, to Lauren, you say you grew up poor. To me, that's not the way you describe it. You go, I never felt poor. I never, so already mixed messages. Both of you communicate mixed messages all day long. And neither one of you is actually coming together to create a joint vision. So you both came in here asking for better communication. I'm showing you how to have that communication. Does this feel like completely foreign to you? Or are you like, oh yeah, like, we need to do that?

• 1:11:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think it resonates.

• 1:11:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:11:11Ramit Sethi?

  If we ended this conversation right now, would you have that type of conversation?

• 1:11:16Speaker 02

  I would be calling the therapist.

• 1:11:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, with a third party.

• 1:11:20Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, that's valid. The most salient thing I take away from Lauren's upbringing is that phrase her mom told her, which is, "A man is not a financial plan." Now, I think that's good advice, but good advice can also be taken too far, in the same way that saving too much money can turn you into a hyper frugalista. When you believe a man is not a financial plan, you go, cool, I need to be independent. I need to have my own job. I need to have an individual account that's just mine. Love it. I support all of those things. If you take it too far, you do not include your spouse in the financial infrastructure, and you keep separate accounts, and you don't listen to him or respect your spouse when it comes to money. You don't even include them because you go, ah, they're just not going to get it. A man is not a financial

• 1:12:03Ramit Sethi?

  plan. What do they know? And you suddenly become an operating party of one. What I hear from Rob's upbringing is exactly what I expected. He grew up poor, even though he won't say that to me, but he said it to Lauren. Everything that he describes is like, yeah, it was fine. It wasn't that big of a deal. Very stoic, very inaccessible when it comes to the feelings of it all. I can spot that as somebody who grew up talking in a similar way. But yet, him growing up poor is revealed when he says things like, I did it this way. So what if our kids have to go through the same thing? Their upbringings are totally connected to how they see money today. And there's one more thing from their past I want

• 1:12:48Ramit Sethi?

  to revisit. And that pool scam, the $40,000 that disappeared, I suspect that single event set the tone for how they've dealt with money for their entire marriage. Listen in. Think about the resentment that you feel with money in your relationship. Is there any connection to what happened with the pool?

• 1:13:10Speaker 01

  I don't think one of us blamed to the other. I think we were both kind of like equally naive. But it was just like, it sucked. I mean, how did that even happen? Like,

• 1:13:22Ramit Sethi?

  Keep going.

• 1:13:23Speaker 01

  Like, I had a good amount of money that time. We weren't married yet, so it was still like my money. Just felt very stupid. I think then it felt like we had a lot more of a cushion, because we just like came into all this money. And whereas now it's like, we don't have as much liquid, because we've spent things on life over time, and we've had properties, and now we have three kids. So back then, it felt like, it didn't feel good to lose 40 grand, but it didn't feel like, I don't know, still pretty devastating. But we just had more money then.

• 1:13:56Ramit Sethi?

  Rob?

• 1:13:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, like, how did, how did it happen to us? We're not dumb people. And how this guy just sell the dream to us without us realizing like, oh, wait, no, why are we giving you all the money upfront instead of half and half, or?

• 1:14:14Ramit Sethi?

  Were you intimately involved with his milestones, the contract, the legality of this pool guy?

• 1:14:23Speaker 01

  No, probably not.

• 1:14:24Ramit Sethi?

  No?

• 1:14:25Speaker 02

  Nowhere near.

• 1:14:25Ramit Sethi?

  Are you intimately involved with your expenses?

• 1:14:28Speaker 01

  Probably not. No, there's a lot of stuff there that was not, the details weren't there.

• 1:14:33Ramit Sethi?

  Yes. Do you feel embarrassed or stupid about some of your spending?

• 1:14:40Speaker 01

  I guess just not like, knowing every little detail about some of those costs, like our food costs.

• 1:14:47Ramit Sethi?

  You feel what?

• 1:14:48Speaker 01

  Just like, I wish I was a little more prepared, I guess, coming on. But I think I thought I was. And also, like, just being a very busy working mom of three, I don't feel like I always have time to like track every detail.

• 1:15:01Ramit Sethi?

  And how about Rob?

• 1:15:02Speaker 01

  He doesn't track any of it.

• 1:15:04Ramit Sethi?

  Got it. Kind of like the money. Do you see any similarities between the pool and this, your finances?

• 1:15:11Speaker 02

  I didn't, I almost didn't care, maybe.

• 1:15:15Ramit Sethi?

  Yes. And why, why did you have the privilege of not caring? Because it's all gonna work out.

• 1:15:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:15:23Ramit Sethi?

  Just like it did when I was a kid, just like it is right now. It's all working out, right? You got a roof over your head, you got a nice bouncy house, you went to Disneyland two years ago, et cetera. It's all kind of working out. Lauren, any connection you see to the pool and today's finances?

• 1:15:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, just like some carelessness and also just like impulsivity. Like, I definitely struggle with impulsivity. So yeah, I mean, it was pretty impulsive to just give that guy 40 grand.

• 1:15:48Ramit Sethi?

  Totally.

• 1:15:49Speaker 02

  On top of what we had to spend to fix the mistakes. So it was, I was thinking to myself, if that happened today, how much more devastating it would be, because that would pretty much emptied out whatever savings left we have with nothing left behind. So it's, it's scary.

• 1:16:10Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah. I appreciate you saying that. It is scary. I think that, that inheritance, the money from it, shielded a lot of lessons that you otherwise would have had to learn.

• 1:16:28Ramit Sethi?

  And I, it doesn't seem like you have changed your financial understanding or behavior in the subsequent years since. I don't think you grappled with the enormity of that decision with the pool, and like really had an honest postmortem. Like, we, we go on a vacation, not to sound like freaks, because I know I'm a bit of a freak. I like documentation stuff. But like, after a trip we take, we will sit down and talk about what went well, what didn't go well. Like, what do we like? What do we want to change next time? We want to try to learn each time we do this. And I'm not saying everybody has to do that. It's just what works for us. But if I went through something where I got scammed out of $40,000, I'll be having a postmortem. What happened? No blame. What happened? I said this, you

• 1:17:13Ramit Sethi?

  said that, I assumed this. Here's what we're going to do differently, so that next time we never get into this situation. No beating yourself up, just acknowledging something you did, which wasn't great, and what you're going to do next time to change it. You think you could do that?

• 1:17:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:17:29Ramit Sethi?

  Great. Your vision of a rich life, what is it? Think about like what happens five years from now, 10 years from now. What is your vision of a rich life?

• 1:17:38Speaker 02

  We have more in savings and investments. This vacation, this experience with you and this vacation for the kids, you know, it's made us both realize that like, we need this. We need more of this.

• 1:17:51Ramit Sethi?

  Yes.

• 1:17:51Speaker 02

  We need to get away together.

• 1:17:53Ramit Sethi?

  Why?

• 1:17:54Speaker 02

  We're, we're undistracted. And our focus is on me and her, and the kids are in Rhode Island, they're safe, they're sound. This is what we need.

• 1:18:03Ramit Sethi?

  Great.

• 1:18:03Speaker 02

  And she kind of said the same thing last night, like, we need more of this.

• 1:18:07Ramit Sethi?

  Yes. So what, what is it? Tell me. You want, once every 10 years, you want to do this?

• 1:18:12Speaker 02

  No, once a year.

• 1:18:14Ramit Sethi?

  Once a year?

• 1:18:14Speaker 02

  Once a year, I want this.

• 1:18:16Ramit Sethi?

  You want a trip with just the two of you for once?

• 1:18:17Speaker 02

  Right. And not worry about like, oh, should we spend only 150 on a hotel, or like?

• 1:18:24Ramit Sethi?

  How much?

• 1:18:26Speaker 02

  Seven grand a year, just for a vacation, just the two of us.

• 1:18:29Ramit Sethi?

  Okay. What do you think about that?

• 1:18:31Speaker 01

  I think we could probably go cheaper.

• 1:18:34Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:18:35Ramit Sethi?

  That's your reaction? He comes to you, he comes to you with a proposal and your reaction is like, let's, let's squash that dream. It sounds too much.

• 1:18:41Speaker 01

  No, I don't want to squash the dream. Um, I think just getting away, the two of us is, yeah, huge. I'm all bored for that.

• 1:18:49Ramit Sethi?

  Okay. The amount is a detail.

• 1:18:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:18:52Ramit Sethi?

  That the two of you could work on, but when I hear my wife come to me and say like, I really want to do this. You know what my reaction is? Ninety nine point nine nine nine percent of the time.

• 1:19:05Ramit Sethi?

  That sounds amazing. How do we do it? What if it was even bigger? And I don't talk about numbers at that point. We could deal with that later, but it is so rare for somebody to get excited about doing something that on that rare occasion, your only job, unless it's going to risk your life, is to meet them with that level of excitement and get excited as well. I love your excitement, Rob. It's a powerful vision. And I think the two, the fact that the two of you are like, we need this. Amazing. Great. What about for you?

• 1:19:35Speaker 01

  Seeing my kids happy, seeing my husband happy. Me feeling happy. I like that we each get our own little things that we like to do, like he'll take that trip to Disney.

• 1:19:44Ramit Sethi?

  That's it.

• 1:19:45Speaker 01

  Um, I got away for a few days last fall without the kids. Them getting to have experiences. Us getting to go on vacations, but also like knowing that we're going to have something to leave behind for them. Like, that's a big part for me is.

• 1:20:02Ramit Sethi?

  Where's that? I don't see that in your.

• 1:20:03Speaker 01

  It's not in there. Before we, when we had more liquid cash, I had like a hundred thousand dollars set aside for the kids that I wanted to invest.

• 1:20:13Ramit Sethi?

  Where'd it go?

• 1:20:14Speaker 01

  With like the sales of the houses. It's gone.

• 1:20:17Ramit Sethi?

  So how, how do you want to do that?

• 1:20:19Speaker 01

  We'd have to take a portion monthly and like automate it into savings or.

• 1:20:26Ramit Sethi?

  Where's it going to come from?

• 1:20:27Speaker 01

  Both of us. I mean, he was like with that, he was like, they don't need that. Like I never had that. They don't need.

• 1:20:34Ramit Sethi?

  I, they didn't pay for my college?

• 1:20:35Speaker 01

  They can join the military. That's what he said.

• 1:20:36Ramit Sethi?

  And is that true, Rob? Do you feel that way?

• 1:20:38Speaker 02

  Sometimes. So it's like, oh, we need to pay for college. I was like, ah, they can just do four years in the military.

• 1:20:43Speaker 01

  Well, also my parents didn't pay for college. I worked almost full time through college.

• 1:20:47Ramit Sethi?

  So then why, why do you need to pay for their college?

• 1:20:49Speaker 01

  It's more, it's not really about paying for their college. It's more about giving them like a nest egg, like I got with my inheritance.

• 1:20:55Ramit Sethi?

  And do you two have a nest egg for yourself?

• 1:20:57Speaker 01

  No, I mean, all our money is just like in equity in the house mostly.

• 1:21:00Ramit Sethi?

  So what's going to happen?

• 1:21:02Speaker 01

  I don't know. We need to build our nest egg.

• 1:21:05Speaker 02

  Yes, we do.

• 1:21:07Ramit Sethi?

  So like, you want to make a plan for that or is it just like we should?

• 1:21:11Speaker 01

  No, we do. Yeah.

• 1:21:12Ramit Sethi?

  Okay. So back to the numbers, if you don't mind. Rob, you want to keep, uh, working until sixty or seventy at this type of role that you have now?

• 1:21:20Speaker 02

  No, not at all.

• 1:21:22Ramit Sethi?

  When you want to retire?

• 1:21:23Speaker 02

  I could work until I'm sixty. I wouldn't want to work at the job I'm at now, but.

• 1:21:28Ramit Sethi?

  Not a straight answer.

• 1:21:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:21:29Ramit Sethi?

  All right.

• 1:21:29Speaker 02

  Sixty five would be good for me.

• 1:21:34Ramit Sethi?

  What's happening with you, Lauren?

• 1:21:35Speaker 01

  I'm just saying, like, we suck at giving straight answers.

• 1:21:39Ramit Sethi?

  Yes.

• 1:21:40Speaker 01

  It wasn't kind of what I was expecting coming on here for us to like, to feel like we were so like wishy washy about things.

• 1:21:47Speaker 02

  It's because neither one of us wants to take

• 1:21:50Speaker 02

  the blame or the, the failure or.

• 1:21:54Ramit Sethi?

  Do you, that's very insightful. Do you agree with that, Lauren?

• 1:21:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:21:57Ramit Sethi?

  It's like the two of you are playing not to lose instead of playing to win. Do you see the difference?

• 1:22:04Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:22:05Ramit Sethi?

  Playing not to lose. I'm not going to take the first step. If they say that, I'm just going to say no, but like, I'm a pushover. I'll let it go. Whatever I want, I'm going to reason it out for my kids, but I can't say no to myself either. But that makes me embarrassed. Playing not to lose instead of playing to win. What does playing to win look like?

• 1:22:25Speaker 01

  Having a shared vision and.

• 1:22:27Speaker 02

  Having a nest egg, having retirement.

• 1:22:29Ramit Sethi?

  Yes.

• 1:22:30Speaker 01

  Having our money together.

• 1:22:31Ramit Sethi?

  Yes.

• 1:22:31Speaker 02

  Shared goals.

• 1:22:32Ramit Sethi?

  Yes. Keep going.

• 1:22:34Speaker 01

  Not having to like hide purchases from each other.

• 1:22:36Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:22:37Ramit Sethi?

  Keep going. How are you feeling like last night when you were walking around and today in the morning, the beautiful weather? How are you feeling? Good. Fun.

• 1:22:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:22:44Speaker 02

  Yes, invigorated.

• 1:22:45Ramit Sethi?

  Playing to win is fun.

• 1:22:47Speaker 02

  It is.

• 1:22:47Ramit Sethi?

  It's not drudgery. You both envision money as drudgery. You hate it. But playing to win with money is fun. It's beautiful. We get to do things. And if we can't do them today, we know when we will be able to do them and we are working on it together.

• 1:23:05Speaker 02

  I, I agree. I think when finances come up, we're both afraid to be the bad person in it.

• 1:23:13Ramit Sethi?

  Yes.

• 1:23:14Speaker 02

  Whether it's she wants to buy or whether it's me saying no, we are afraid to just talk about it and get on the same page because we don't want to be the bad person in it.

• 1:23:27Ramit Sethi?

  Yes.

• 1:23:28Speaker 02

  And so we'll make it look like we're the good person in our roles and.

• 1:23:33Ramit Sethi?

  That's really why you came here today, to, to look like the good person. And anything that comes your way, in fact, as recently as two minutes ago, anything that comes your way,

• 1:23:44Ramit Sethi?

  toss it over to the other person and jab them. It happens over, it's a deep seated pattern that you have. It's, you could totally change it. Hundred percent. I know for a fact, but you have to have a reason why. And right now, your two hundred fifty seven thousand dollars that you invested grows to about two point nine million by the age of seventy. And that money gets you, um, about a hundred and sixteen thousand dollars a year from investments. Lauren, that would be like for you, even though you're married. Rob's pension of fifty four thousand dollars a year, that would be a total of a hundred and seventy thousand dollars a year in retirement. How do you feel about that?

• 1:24:30Speaker 01

  I feel good. Well, by then hopefully we wouldn't have a mortgage.

• 1:24:33Speaker 02

  I have three kids on the reverse, but.

• 1:24:36Ramit Sethi?

  So let's just take it out so you can see, this is all already accounts for inflation as well. So right now you're at eighty one percent fixed costs. I'm going to zero out your mortgage. That number dropped to?

• 1:24:47Speaker 01

  Fifty eight.

• 1:24:48Ramit Sethi?

  Fifty eight percent. You would not theoretically need to invest more money. You're retired and you would have, that's a lot. Well, you'd have seven thousand dollars a month in guilt free spending.

• 1:25:02Ramit Sethi?

  It's not bad. That's a lot of money. This is a very fine plan. In, in part, a couple of reasons. One, we have the pension that's guaranteed. Two, we have the money that is growing at two hundred fifty seven thousand dollars and you're relatively young and you would continue, you know, investing a little bit of money.

• 1:25:24Ramit Sethi?

  What do you think?

• 1:25:25Speaker 01

  It looks great. I think about where is the money we leave our kids?

• 1:25:28Ramit Sethi?

  Yes. Where is it?

• 1:25:30Speaker 01

  I, that's where I feel like we need to invest more.

• 1:25:33Ramit Sethi?

  Okay. That's good. That's a source of agreement. I like that. I want to point out that a hundred and seventy K a year is thirty thousand dollars less than you currently make. Are you okay with that?

• 1:25:43Speaker 01

  I am. Like if we didn't have a mortgage payment, I think that would be okay.

• 1:25:47Ramit Sethi?

  Cool. Rob?

• 1:25:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:25:50Ramit Sethi?

  What's the hesitation? It's okay.

• 1:25:52Speaker 02

  I just, I know, I just think of, we're not thinking of like kids and grandkids.

• 1:26:00Ramit Sethi?

  I think that's a valid point. I, I do think with seven thousand dollars a month, that is a lot of margin to play with. A lot. That's trips and that's the occasional gift to the kids, the grandkids, all that stuff. What I think is notable is that your savings, you never really set a goal for your savings right now. So this is all assuming everything works out perfectly. That nobody gets sick, nobody loses a job, et cetera, et cetera. All the parent illness, whatever it may be. I don't want to be making like hundreds of thousands of dollars and not have more than a month's worth of savings.

• 1:26:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:26:36Ramit Sethi?

  You want to fix it?

• 1:26:37Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:26:37Ramit Sethi?

  All right. Let's put the mortgage back. How much you want to invest? You both agree you want to invest more.

• 1:26:43Speaker 01

  We start with a goal of like doubling what we do.

• 1:26:46Ramit Sethi?

  Okay. I'm going to show you what happens. That's at three percent. You have two thousand seven hundred and seventy dollars a month left over. Are you guys good with that? Would you like to build up your savings perhaps?

• 1:26:57Speaker 02

  I would like to make a goal of like five hundred dollars at least a month.

• 1:27:01Ramit Sethi?

  Okay.

• 1:27:02Speaker 02

  From my current job.

• 1:27:04Ramit Sethi?

  Okay. You're down to two thousand two hundred and seventy dollars a month for guilt free spending. I think right now it feels like you're both like, yeah, sounds good. Cause you actually have no idea how much you're spending every month.

• 1:27:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, we don't.

• 1:27:16Ramit Sethi?

  This is all hypothetical. And guys, this is why

• 1:27:20Ramit Sethi?

  like knowing your numbers, like you came all the way here and neither of you actually looked at real numbers. What, what do you make of that? It's an opportunity you have that because you're not aligned, do you see how many opportunities come up in life? And because you're not aligned, you just kind of let them go?

• 1:27:36Speaker 01

  I feel like I looked at most of the numbers. I feel like it's like the details of the like guilt free spending and then what, food?

• 1:27:44Ramit Sethi?

  Those are important numbers.

• 1:27:46Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:27:46Ramit Sethi?

  See, what's happening here is you, you have to go back to your mental model. Your mental model is I pay the bills. That's what managing money is. So you're dialed in, you know, your mortgage, you know, your utilities, you know, your car payment. And you're like, yeah, I take a lot of pride in that. But actually that's the least important stuff on this CSP because that's always the same. It's automatic. We don't need to even think about it. What really matters in the CSP are the four key numbers. And underneath those numbers tend to be discretionary things. For you two, it is food, kids and travel.

• 1:28:20Ramit Sethi?

  Those three can swing your, your expenses by like fifty thousand dollars a year. So actually is really important to know. What's your approach for figuring these numbers out together? How are you going to do it?

• 1:28:32Speaker 02

  Sit down and look at them and look exactly like how much we spent at BJ's or Walmart for food and how much.

• 1:28:43Speaker 02

  Other things are coming out that we don't really-

• 1:28:44Speaker 01

  Like pulling up all of our spending and actually figure out-

• 1:28:47Ramit Sethi?

  Who's gonna start? Who's gonna pull it up?

• 1:28:49Speaker 01

  We both have the apps, right?

• 1:28:51Ramit Sethi?

  Good. And then what if you discover that you have to say, "No."

• 1:28:58Speaker 01

  We'll be okay.

• 1:28:59Ramit Sethi?

  What if you have to say "No" to your kids?

• 1:29:03Speaker 01

  They're fine. They have everything they need.

• 1:29:04Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:29:05Speaker 01

  They honestly, they don't ask for things like, really.

• 1:29:09Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah, that's why I'm not blaming the kids.

• 1:29:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, it's me wanting to like provide this lifestyle.

• 1:29:16Speaker 02

  But when they do ask for things, it's usually-

• 1:29:19Ramit Sethi?

  So how are you gonna deal with that?

• 1:29:21Speaker 01

  You're gonna have to stand with me in solidarity and say, "No."

• 1:29:25Ramit Sethi?

  I love that. That is a great, that's a great answer. Yeah, like, I love you saying, "Look, I'm actually not great at this. This is something that I really struggle with, and Rob, you've pointed that out a lot, and I realize this isn't a skill I'm particularly good at. So I need your help. I need you to help me even practice how to say no, because it's so hard for me. And then when we go to the kids, we gotta do it together, and I need you to support me. I need your hand on my shoulders. That's what we're talking about here, right? That's cool. And then, Rob, you can say the same thing. Hey, I know that I have not been working for a few years, and I know that you expected more of me, and I did not live up to those expectations.

• 1:30:08Ramit Sethi?

  I have a lot of work to do. I realize that. I'm going to the therapist. I'm managing the calendar on that. I'm leading our financial meetings. All I ask is that you watch what I am doing, because I'm ready to be a partner here. And then, Rob, you actually have to do all that stuff.

• 1:30:28Speaker 02

  Stupid.

• 1:30:31Ramit Sethi?

  That's pretty cool.

• 1:30:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:30:34Ramit Sethi?

  I suspect that the way that you have been spending money is basically just like, we're just gonna spend it, and as long as we're not going into credit card debt, it's fine. That ends today. Because from now on, you will project anything that you're gonna buy. Anything above a certain number, I suggest over $500, the two of you have to both agree. If you both do not agree, it's a no.

• 1:30:55Speaker 01

  Gonna be so hard.

• 1:30:57Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah. I appreciate you recognizing that. The two of you will have to rewrite your roles. What's happening right now? These interesting facial expressions.

• 1:31:06Speaker 01

  I think we're like both-

• 1:31:08Speaker 02

  Eager.

• 1:31:09Speaker 01

  Down.

• 1:31:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:31:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:31:11Speaker 02

  It's definitely gonna be hard, because we're setting our ways.

• 1:31:16Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:16Speaker 01

  But like, none of that's working. And like I said, we have changed a lot, even just like in our own lifestyles and gotten so much healthier over the past year. We can make changes.

• 1:31:26Ramit Sethi?

  I love that. Rob and Lauren 2.0, that's what you're working. And you can even define it. Here's what Rob and Lauren 2.0 are. They look good. They feel good, et cetera, et cetera. That's cool. I love the smiles on your faces.

• 1:31:39Speaker 02

  We both want this life, but since we weren't open to talk about it, we've been putting, working towards that life together and reaching it sooner. It's a disjustice to both of us. We were given tools that we're now gonna implement, because we both want to, instead of trying to do it ourselves. Because obviously, it's not working, and it's just gonna lead to the ultimate destruction of our our marriage and our family, which we both don't want. So better that we have this opportunity to fix it and stop, stop the bleeding.

• 1:32:19Speaker 01

  And I'm just, I'm like grateful that Rob is like willing to engage. He was willing to come out here. I wasn't sure how he was gonna feel about it when I applied without telling him.

• 1:32:29Speaker 01

  So I feel good, too.

• 1:32:31Ramit Sethi?

  This was one of the toughest conversations that I've had on this podcast. Every time I pulled a thread, it's like five more unraveled, and nobody really wanted to look at what was underneath. And you could probably tell I got frustrated at certain points. So if you are watching, Rob and Lauren, I want to thank you for being here. And I want to apologize if I came across as too direct at times, or if I was rude. You do have a lot of work to do. It's complex. It's layered. Even with a therapist on a regular basis, it's gonna be hard. The good news is that you have a high income, and a high income can hide a lot of problems. The bad news is that only works for so long.

• 1:33:13Ramit Sethi?

  Eventually, reality hits, and what is left when you confront that reality are the actual dynamics underneath the money. Here's what I keep coming back to. Before they were married, Rob and Lauren handed a contractor $40,000 without a contract. No milestones, no one checking where the money was actually going. I said it earlier, and I meant it. I think one scam might have set the tone for their entire marriage around money. It taught them that when money goes wrong, you don't sit down and talk about it. You just eat the loss. You get a little bit more guarded with each other, and that's still showing up in how they operate today. Another thing about that scam, it didn't come out of nowhere.

• 1:33:54Ramit Sethi?

  Scammers find you because your information is out there, your name, your address, the fact that you just bought a house, which everybody knows, because they want money as part of that transaction. That's public. People use it to figure out exactly how to target you. And that's how the pitch ends up sounding really personalized. I use Delete Me for exactly this reason. My family's information, my information, I want it off the sites that sell it one by one. And we can't undo what's happened to Rob and Lauren, but we can try to control what information about ourselves is shared online publicly. This is about making yourself a harder target before someone else decides to try.

• 1:34:36Ramit Sethi?

  Go to joindelete.me/ramit and use code RAMIT for 20% off a plan for you and your family. Now let's check out their follow-ups.

• 1:34:47Speaker 01

  Hi, Ramit. It's Lauren. Thank you again for having us on your podcast. We really enjoyed participating. I think the biggest surprise for me was talking about our relationship dynamics more than our finances. Hearing that our conscious spending plan wasn't like complete. I had kind of estimated the cost of things like groceries, which Rob thought I overestimated.

• 1:35:14Speaker 01

  And then hearing our gross income, I didn't think it was that high. Takeaways, I would say we need to work more as a team. I need to let Rob take a bigger role in our finances if I expect him to contribute and care more about them. And I think I need to stop looking at things like, well, you spent this, so I can spend that. And then we have already made some changes. As soon as we got home, I doubled my 401K contribution. Yesterday, I had an intro call with Facet, and we're planning to move our investments from a percentage-based fee advising system to the flat fee.

• 1:35:54Speaker 01

  And then just making our checking accounts joint and, you know, giving each other a debit card and the login information, and then having the one main checking account that we work out of. Planning for Rob to contribute $500 a month to savings, and then just going through our grocery bills to get an accurate estimate.

• 1:36:16Speaker 02

  So the biggest surprise was the fact that even though we communicate, we're not really doing very meaningful communication of just day-to-day relationship money. So we really need to work on that, and we have been in the past and currently, but obviously, we're not doing it to the best of our capabilities. The biggest takeaway was just saving. We're not saving enough. I think we talked about it, and we came up with a plan. You know, even though we have the same worries, we're not communicating them, so we're not on the same page for money.

• 1:36:58Speaker 02

  And that was the biggest takeaway, is that we need to get on the same page, even with some of our visions and our means of getting there. So what we've done already is she's already doubled her contribution to the savings or 401K. I am looking to start and saving 125 a week and make it 500. We've already scheduled a therapy appointment for this Saturday. And we'll be, that'll be our first time talking about money, since it would be better to do with a mediator.

• 1:37:32Speaker 01

  Hi, Ramit. Just checking in on our follow-up. So some changes we've made. Rob has picked up another day at work, so he's working four days instead of three. Some wins that we've had, we finalized our will and trusts, the state plan. We had some, a little bit of credit card debt build up again, and Rob was able to pay off $4,000, which was a nice relief for me, that he was able to take care of that. Challenges we faced, just kind of like losing my academic year pay over the summer, and not just filling up all that time with work and picking up hours and trying to just

• 1:38:13Speaker 01

  actually enjoy the summer and some time for myself, which is rare. And some mindset shifts. I think we just feel like more of a team, and I'm seeing things, you know, less individually, and more like I have a partner in managing our finances. So thank you for all your help. We're gonna just keep working on things and keep listening to the podcast, and

• 1:38:39Speaker 01

  it was great to be out there. Thanks.

• 1:38:41Speaker 02

  So what has happened in the month since our meeting?

• 1:38:46Speaker 02

  A lot, actually. I continually to increase hours at work, so I'm almost up to five days a week, pretty consistently. Lauren has already doubled her contributions to her savings claim. So we are getting our ducks in a row.

• 1:39:04Speaker 02

  The challenges are still the same as we discussed, saying no to the kids, being more transparent about money, everyday decisions. We are still working with our therapist with that, and she is very eager to see the episode. But we've definitely made some headway. Our mindset has changed. We're much more open to approach each other about what we're thinking on buying, or what we shouldn't spend on this. And that's come from our meeting with Ramit and our therapist that we've seen quite regularly since the episode was taped.

• 1:39:43Speaker 02

  So I can't wait to see what the future holds, and can't wait to keep giving you guys updates of how we've changed and accomplished our goals, and

• 1:39:57Speaker 02

  very eager to see what's ahead of us.

• 1:40:00Ramit Sethi?

  If you want to know the exact month and year that you will have $100,000 in your investment portfolio, sign up for my new program, Road to 100K. I'll help you hit that number fast. Go to iwt.com/100k to sign up.