Peptide & Hormone Therapies for Health, Performance & Longevity | Dr. Craig Koniver

In this episode, Dr. Craig Koniver, M. D., a board-certified physician trained at Brown University and Thomas Jefferson University, discusses the therapeutic application of peptides and hormones for enhancing physical and mental health and performance. We explore GLP-1 analogs for weight loss, BPC-157 for wound healing and reducing inflammation, as well as peptides that increase growth hormone, improve REM sleep, and enhance cognitive function. We also cover testosterone therapy, NAD, NMN, and NR supplementation, methylene blue for mitochondrial health, stem cell therapies, and supplements such as CoEnzyme Q10 and methylated B vitamins. Additionally, we discuss effective dosages, sourcing, safety considerations, and the importance of working with knowledgeable physicians. Whether you're currently using peptides or exogenous hormones, or simply curious about their potential benefits and risks, this episode provides the scientific rationale behind how peptides function, their potential to enhance mental and physical health, and how they can optimize performance. Access the full show notes for this episode at hubermanlab.com. Thank you to our sponsors AG1: https://drinkag1.com/huberman Joovv: https://joovv.com/huberman BetterHelp: https://betterhelp.com/huberman Function: https://functionhealth.com/huberman Eight Sleep: https://eightsleep.com/huberman Timestamps 00:00:00 Dr. Craig Koniver 00:04:52 Sponsors: Joovv & BetterHelp 00:07:40 What is a Peptide? 00:09:37 GLP-1 Agonists, Semaglutide Weight Loss, Brain Health 00:15:49 GLP-1 Microdoses, Muscle Loss; Inflammation 00:18:43 BPC-157, Inflammation 00:23:27 BPC-157, Injection & Oral Forms; Injury Repair 00:28:43 Sourcing, Anabolic Steroids, Testosterone 00:34:48 Black & Gray Market, Compounding Pharmacies, Purity 00:38:20 Sponsor: AG1 00:39:51 Partnering with a Physician, LPS 00:43:00 BPC-157, Pentadeca Arginate (PDA); Side Effects & Doses 00:46:35 Ipamorelin, GHRP-6, Sleep, Appetite; Tool: Sleep & Growth Hormone 00:54:17 Tesamorelin, Sermorelin, CJC-1295; Stacking Peptides 00:58:45 Sponsor: Function & Eight Sleep 01:01:54 Coenzyme Q10 (CoQ10), Mitochondrial Health 01:05:16 Prescriptions, Physicians & Trust 01:14:09 Agency in Your Health 01:17:13 MK-677, Appetite 01:19:32 Hexarelin; Growth Hormone Secretagogues Dosing 01:21:10 Methylated B Vitamins, Homocysteine 01:24:47 Peptides for Sleep, Pinealon, Epitalon 01:31:03 Glycine, Liver Detoxification; Dosage 01:37:19 GLP-1, Compounding Pharmacies 01:39:03 Stem Cell Therapy, PRP 01:41:18 Thymosin Alpha-1, Cerebrolysin & Brain Health 01:44:17 Peptides for Cognitive Function, Methylene Blue, Doses 01:50:20 Covid, NAD Infusion, NMN & NR Supplements 01:57:13 Nutritional Deficiencies; NAD Dose & Regimen, NMN & NR 02:07:53 PT-141, Vyleesi, Libido; Nausea 02:10:57 FDA Approval & Removal, Pharmaceutical Companies 02:20:17 Positivity, Mindset & Health 02:26:23 Zero-Cost Support, YouTube, Spotify & Apple Follow & Reviews, Sponsors, YouTube Feedback, Protocols Book, Social Media, Neural Network Newsletter Disclaimer & Disclosures Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Andrew D. Huberman?

  Welcome to the Huberman Lab Podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life. I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine. My guest today is Dr. Craig Conover. Dr. Craig Conover is a medical doctor who did his training at Brown University and Thomas Jefferson University. He is a world expert in what he refers to as "performance medicine," which involves the use of peptides and other therapies for improving mental health, physical health, and performance. Now, many of you have perhaps heard of peptide therapies, perhaps some of you have not. A peptide is simply a small protein, so insulin is a peptide.

• 0:42Andrew D. Huberman?

  We have many different thousands of peptides in our brain and body, and they perform a variety of different roles. Dr. Conover's expertise is in the use of exogenous, that is, peptides that one takes, exogenous peptides, for activating multiple pathways in the brain and body to augment health. Now, of course, peptides such as insulin have been used for many years now to treat things like diabetes, but today we talk about novel peptides, including GLP-1. So these are glucagon-like peptide analogues, things like Ozempic and Monjaro, which I realize are a bit controversial. However, today we talk about the microdosing of those peptides. We talk about those peptides combined with other peptides, as well as behavioral practices to offset the muscle loss associated with them.

• 1:26Andrew D. Huberman?

  And then we dive into some lesser-known peptides, but ones that are growing in use. For instance, BPC157, or Body Protection Compound 157, which is used to treat inflammation, to accelerate wound healing, and a variety of other things. Then we discuss the use of peptides specifically to increase growth hormone secretion during sleep, as well as some peptides that can actually increase rapid eye movement sleep dramatically. Today, we also discuss testosterone therapies, not just for men, but for women. These are growing increasingly popular, as well as things like NAD, as well as specific supplements. Dr. Conover, as he will soon tell you, is not a huge proponent of supplements, but he does mention several that he feels are of particular use in

• 2:10Andrew D. Huberman?

  Including things like coenzyme Q10 and some of the methylated B vitamins. And he explains why he takes that stance. So today's discussion is really for anybody interested in mental health, physical health and performance. And the reason I say that is that even if you aren't considering taking peptides or already taking peptides, peptides and some of these other compounds I've mentioned sit somewhere between doing nothing except diet and exercise. Supplements, which I sort of see as the next step up the ladder in terms of augmenting your health approaches. And then, of course, there are a number of prescription drugs, including hormone therapies such as growth hormone therapies, testosterone therapies and a number of other things that, yes, can modify those hormone pathways. They are in fact hormones, but they actually can shut down

• 2:55Andrew D. Huberman?

  one's natural production of those hormone pathways. Peptide therapy sits somewhere between doing nothing and supplementation and those more advanced hormone therapies. And that's why peptide therapies, I believe, are growing in popularity. They can augment specific hormone pathways. They can augment specific, in fact, multiple processes within the brain and body to augment health. But they don't tend to operate in that negative feedback cycle by shutting down one's own endogenous production. Now, that doesn't mean that they aren't without some safety concerns. And today, we of course, discuss the potential side effects and safety concerns of peptides as well as the critical issue of sourcing clean peptides and working with a board certified physician if one is going to pursue peptide use. So by the end of today's discussion,

• 3:40Andrew D. Huberman?

  you will be right there on the cutting edge of what's happening and where things are going with peptides. And in keeping with that, you'll notice that during today's discussion, we talk a fair amount about what the FDA currently allows in terms of prescription peptides, what the FDA has recently removed from the market in terms of peptides. And as a very recent update, just prior to the release of this episode, I learned that three peptides, CJC1295, ipamorelin, both of which are in the growth hormone secretagog family, meaning they promote the release of growth hormone, as well as thymosin beta alpha, which is in the sort of anti-inflammatory and tissue repair pathway. Those three are now Reallowed for prescription in the United States.

• 4:23Andrew D. Huberman?

  So at the time of recording this episode, we discussed some of those as being recently banned by the FDA. They are now approved again for use in humans by the FDA. So there's a brief and very recent update. So just to summarize this admittedly long introduction, today you're going to learn about this incredible area of science called peptide biology and how it can augment mental health, physical health, and performance. And you're going to do so from one of the world's leading clinical experts. Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford. It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public.

• 5:05Andrew D. Huberman?

  In keeping with that theme, I'd like to thank the sponsors of today's podcast. Our first sponsor is JOOV. JOOV makes medical-grade red light therapy devices. Now, if there's one thing that I have consistently emphasized on this podcast, it is the incredible impact that light can have on our biology. Now, in addition to sunlight, red light and near-infrared light sources have been shown to have positive effects on improving numerous aspects of cellular and organ health, including faster muscle recovery, improved skin health and wound healing, improvements in acne, reduced pain and inflammation, even mitochondrial function, and improving vision itself. What sets JOOV lights apart and why they're my preferred red light therapy device is that they use clinically proven wavelengths, meaning specific wavelengths of red light

• 5:47Andrew D. Huberman?

  and near-infrared light in combination to trigger the optimal cellular adaptations. Personally, I use the JOOV Whole Body Panel about three to four times a week, and I use the JOOV handheld light both at home and when I travel. If you'd like to try JOOV, you can go to JOOV, spelled J-O-O-V-V dot com slash Huberman. JOOV is offering an exclusive discount to all Huberman Lab listeners with up to $400 off JOOV products. Again, that's JOOV, spelled J-O-O-V-V dot com slash Huberman, to get up to $400 off. Today's episode is also brought to us by BetterHelp. BetterHelp offers professional therapy with a licensed therapist carried out entirely online. Therapy is an extremely important component to overall health.

• 6:30Andrew D. Huberman?

  In fact, I consider doing regular therapy just as important as getting regular exercise, including cardiovascular exercise and resistance training exercise. Now, there are essentially three things that great therapy provides. First, it provides a good rapport with somebody that you can really trust and talk to about any and all issues that concern you. Second of all, great therapy provides support in the form of emotional support, but also directed guidance, the do's and the not to do's. And third, expert therapy can help you arrive at useful insights that you would not have arrived at otherwise. Insights that allow you to do better, not just in your emotional life, in your relationship life, but also the relationship to yourself and your professional life and all sorts of career goals. With BetterHelp, they make it very easy to find an expert therapist with whom you can

• 7:13Andrew D. Huberman?

  really resonate with and provide you with these three benefits that I described. Also, because BetterHelp is carried out entirely online, it's very time efficient and easy to fit into a busy schedule with no commuting to a therapist's office or sitting in a waiting room or looking for a parking spot. So if you'd like to try BetterHelp, go to betterhelp.com/huberman to get 10% off your first month. Again, that's betterhelp.com/huberman. And now for my discussion with Dr. Craig Conover. Dr. Craig Conover, welcome. Thank you, Andrew. I appreciate the invitation to be here. I'm thrilled that you're here. We are going to launch ourselves into the space that is called peptides. Yeah. And it's an interesting space. For sure.

• 7:56Andrew D. Huberman?

  Because I think most people probably don't know what a peptide is. They should feel no guilt or shame about that. Right. I'm sure you'll tell us. But this area of medicine that people broadly refer to as peptides is picking up a lot of momentum, even though it's been around for a long time. And I find it particularly interesting because there are many people using peptides for very specific purposes, but most people haven't really heard of the various peptides that are out there. Right. And if anything, we can be sure that in the years to come, peptides are going to be increasingly popular. Totally agree. And there's, of course, the

• 8:40Andrew D. Huberman?

  Incredibly popular peptide of GLP-1 agonist.

• 8:45Speaker 01

  For sure, taken over.

• 8:46Andrew D. Huberman?

  So to drop into this and make sure everyone's on the same page. What is a peptide?

• 8:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, just from a very elementary level, peptides are just chains of amino acids. So amino acids, all naturally occurring molecules. We call it a peptide if it's 40 amino acids or less. Call it a protein if it's 41 amino acids or more. The body makes, I think the last I read, 300,000 peptides. So it's a massive number. We probably therapeutically are using closer to 150 over the years, which is obviously tiny compared to that. So to your point, this is blossoming. We've been using peptides for about eight years, a long time, but still very early in our understanding of how best to use peptides and how clinically we're going to get the most out of them. So it's exciting.

• 9:36Andrew D. Huberman?

  Maybe just to orient ourselves, we should talk about GLP-1 first. Not because it's necessarily the category of peptides that I think people would want to consider for themselves, but because most people have probably heard of semaglutide and monjaro and things like that.

• 9:59Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 10:00Andrew D. Huberman?

  So how long ago was it that humans started injecting GLP-1 agonist in order to lose weight?

• 10:08Speaker 01

  I think the weight loss aspect has only been a couple of years. I mean, it's been tremendous how it's accelerated to like literally becoming the number one prescribed in America. You know, semaglutide Ozempic was approved longer than that for four type 2 diabetics, helping with, you know, glucose control and helping with glucose utilization. And what they found, you know, as a side effect was that these people were losing weight. And then that word caught on. And, you know, what's interesting, and I don't think most people understand is most of the medicines prescribed, particularly in America, are prescribed off-label, meaning they've never, ever been approved for what they're used.

• 10:46Andrew D. Huberman?

  Is that right?

• 10:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, the vast majority. Yeah, are never approved. So as a physician, I'm allowed to prescribe any drug for any reason I want, as long as it's been approved for something, right? As long as we're safe, right? We don't want to be cavalier about this and renegade and do all these things that are not, that are out of bounds. But that is the truth. So semaglutide is a great example, being used for helping people, diabetics, type 2 diabetics, lower their blood sugar. And then it got to, well, now let's help diabetics lose weight, right? Because diabetics struggle with weight, the insulin resistance. And then it became, well, even if you're not a diabetic, could you benefit from losing weight? Well, heck, yeah, right? I mean, look at the amount of obesity in people who are overweight and having trouble maintaining

• 11:32Speaker 01

  healthy weight. It's exorbitant in this country and certainly worldwide. So then it spread. It did eventually get FDA approval specifically for weight loss. But, you know, at first, no, it's been just for type 2 diabetics to help with glucose utilization. And, you know, we've been using primarily trisepotide, which is like semaglutide version 2.0, mostly for the past two years. Have learned a tremendous amount. And my opinion's actually changed from working with people.

• 12:04Andrew D. Huberman?

  Yeah. What is your opinion? My understanding is that, well, there's sort of two camps on this, it seems, at least two camps. One camp seems really bullish on this. They seem very excited about this drug. The other camp seems to point to the fact that one may be creating a drug dependency, that it's very expensive. And they point to the also potency of lifestyle factors like exercise and caloric restriction, eating mostly non-processed foods, et cetera, as a quote unquote, better alternative. I'm not necessarily saying that. I think that both have their place. It's, to me, it seems very contextual. But as a clinician, I'm curious what you think.

• 12:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, I agree. Both have their place. My philosophy is I want everyone to have access to things that are, number one, safe, that propel them to look, feel, and perform their best. And if that means, right, if it was just about, if I can exercise my way out of this, eat my way out of this, meaning lose weight. Change my body composition. Why do we have an epidemic, you know, of so many people who struggle with that? Because it's really hard, right? And we don't totally understand it. I'm not saying that, yeah, the processed food thing is a massive problem. I mean, I know that's come to light recently with people pushing for us to take a look at food companies and the quality of our food, which is amazing.

• 13:25Speaker 01

  But if people aren't interested in doing better for themselves and, you know, this is, may not make sense, but I think it does. The analogy I use is I like to help people win the race first, which then helps them motivate to train for the next race, right? And this kind of goes against the grain of conventional medicine, which is, you know, if you want to train for the race, you have to, you know, run a certain number of miles. You have to sleep a certain way, have to eat a certain way. You have to do all the things, struggle to get there, right? And losing weight is a struggle. And, and the way I look at it, if I can help people lose weight first, literally by using something like trisepotide, semaglutide, and I've seen this, they're now excited. I mean, I met with a client yesterday here in Los Angeles and she literally looked at me and said, you've changed my life.

• 14:07Speaker 01

  She goes, I am a super successful woman in my company, with my family, with my kids. Everything's great, but now I love my life. My workouts are better. I look better. My clothes fit better. I am super excited about waking up every morning. Like she is there. And that is what it's about, right? And so for people, if you can help them achieve their goal first, then they're going to be motivated. The light bulb turns on, they're going to be like, wow, I want more of this. And that's the aha moment that I love helping people with. So at first I was like, oh, we got to be really cautious with this. Same thinking, like, I don't want people to lose too much weight. Like this is a problem. Are they going to be dependent? I don't like the notion that you have to take something the rest of your life. And I'm not saying it has to be the rest of their life, but when something works and

• 14:52Speaker 01

  as far as I can tell is very safe. I think it's worth discussing and I like people having those options at least.

• 14:58Andrew D. Huberman?

  Yeah, it sounds like from the story you just told us that it's not just about an aesthetic change that motivates people to lean into other aspects of their health and life when they lose some weight, that it's also just the sheer literal weight. And also that adipose tissue, fat tissue, you know, produces a lot of hormones that we know impact the brain and brain function, which is not to say that there aren't people out there with a lot of adipose tissues who aren't extremely bright and motivated, et cetera. But many people who are carrying excess body fat don't feel good. They report brain fog, et cetera. And I think now, thanks to Chris Palmer, and actually at Stanford, there's also a program in metabolic psychiatry, we're starting to see or understand and appreciate the link

• 15:43Andrew D. Huberman?

  between adipose tissue and brain health or lack of brain health in most cases.

• 15:48Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 15:48Andrew D. Huberman?

  So in the case of GLP-1,

• 15:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:53Andrew D. Huberman?

  people have criticized it, saying that a fair percentage of the weight that's lost is lean body mass, muscle loss. But it seems to me that can be remedied pretty easily if people just do some resistance training.

• 16:05Speaker 01

  I think part of that, yeah, resistance training. The other thing I would say is from what we've seen is when people are using the conventional dosages, they're losing weight too quickly. And so what we do is we get both semaglutide, mostly terzepatide compounded, and that allows us to use basically micro dosages and start very low in terms of dosage and go slowly with people. And what we found is as long as people are losing less, two pounds or less a week, they're not losing the muscle mass. We certainly encourage adequate protein intake, you know, resistance training, but that microdosing has been a game changer, like literal game changer, because then people

• 16:46Speaker 01

  don't feel like, and I've seen it where we, when we started, people were losing, you know, 15 pounds in three weeks.

• 16:52Andrew D. Huberman?

  Goodness.

• 16:53Speaker 01

  Right? And then they're like excited, but then they're not, because then they come off of it and they just gain it right back. Or they lose a lot of weight and they lose that fat in their face and they look like skeletons. We've seen those called ozempic faces. We don't like the way that looks and that fat takes a while to come back. So if we just go slowly with this and we can really dial it in and nuance it. That has had a tremendous impact. And now, beyond the weight loss, you know, we're seeing cognitive benefits. We're seeing, you know, inflammation benefits. A lot of people with autoimmune disease, who their inflammation markers are coming down, and that's the only thing we can think is working.

• 17:27Andrew D. Huberman?

  Is that a direct effect of Ozempic on the immune system and pathways related to inflammation? Or is it indirect through the loss of adipose tissue, body fat, which then lowers, lowers inflammation?

• 17:42Speaker 01

  Great question. Or I could say, is it the positive thoughts that come from looking yourself in the mirror and feeling good, right? Which transcends to you feeling better about yourself. And that feeds forward to the momentum that you put forth in the world. All of those things. I think it's all of the above. You know, I think that's gonna be hard to dissect, but it's real. I mean, I have a patient, she's 50, she has Hashimoto's thyroiditis, meaning she attacks her thyroid, she doesn't, you know, make enough thyroid hormones, so she takes thyroid hormone. Well, one of the challenges with that is they make a lot of thyroid antibodies, this antibody called thyroid prooxide antibody. And when you have an elevated thyroid prooxide antibody, you don't feel good. You feel inflamed, your joints hurt, you get rashes. Life is just not easy. And it's a challenge to get that number down.

• 18:24Speaker 01

  I mean, certainly a challenge for me, you know, you traditionally use probiotics, a lot of things to help bolster the immune system. Well, now we're starting to use the GLP-1s, and we're seeing that those antibody levels come down. And I, I don't have a great way of explaining it, but there's something going on that's very positive.

• 18:41Andrew D. Huberman?

  Very interesting. Well, I suppose moving from most widely known, peptides are still fairly unknown to most people, even the concept, but that's why you're here. You're changing that right now. But moving from things like GLP-1 to what I would probably call the second most popular peptide, the one that we're hearing more and more about all the time, and that's BPC157, Body Protection Compound 157.

• 19:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:12Andrew D. Huberman?

  Which, to my understanding, there are a lot of animal data, very few, if any, clinical studies on humans.

• 19:19Speaker 01

  Agreed.

• 19:20Andrew D. Huberman?

  But a lot of people now taking BPC in various forms.

• 19:23Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 19:25Andrew D. Huberman?

  What are some known uses for BPC? Let's just say within your clinic.

• 19:30Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 19:30Andrew D. Huberman?

  And then we'll get around to the fact that BPC has, let's hope temporarily, been taken off market.

• 19:37Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 19:37Andrew D. Huberman?

  And what some of the alternatives are. But what is BPC? What instances or people have you found it useful for?

• 19:45Speaker 01

  So many. So I think with BPC, for me, kind of the most utilized peptide that we've used. So we'd like to use BPC almost with every patient. It is very anti-inflammatory, right? And so just from a very general perspective, you know, most people walking around who are adults, you know, they're stiff, they're sore as they get older, they work out. We work with athletes of all levels. There's that element of inflammation. Maybe they have some chronic disease, diabetes, heart disease, autoimmune disease. Inflammation is paramount. We understand that. And BPC, I, you know, observe with so many patients, we're talking thousands upon thousands of patients, where their inflammation comes down. So they feel better. They're not as stiff, they're not as sore, their knee doesn't hurt as much, their shoulders improved.

• 20:29Speaker 01

  So we've learned, you know, that we start with a dose, you know, based upon these, like you said, animal studies, which is conservative, make sure it's safe. And then we've seen over time that we can get to higher and higher dosages and have even more of an impact, you know? And I think, so for people understanding using BPC, we started with a dose of like 500 micrograms a day. We got up to 5,000 micrograms a day, you know? And we'd like a protocol of five days on, two days off. And that's been very helpful for a variety of things from post-viral, you know, with the pandemic. Had a lot of success with BPC. To, again, you name it. Honestly, almost everyone I could think of, particularly as people are engaging more fitness-related lives, they're working out more.

• 21:13Speaker 01

  I would argue that anyone who's working out on a regular basis, BPC is going to benefit. It's going to help, you know, improve the inflammatory status, but also help with recovery. And it doesn't seem to be one of these agents that's going to be detrimental. Like we were talking earlier, Rob and I, for the start, like, You know, they found that people are working out hard taking antioxidants. That there seems to be a negative consequence to that because you don't allow the body to kind of repair itself. I don't think that's happening with BPC.

• 21:41Andrew D. Huberman?

  That's interesting because my understanding is also that part of the specific and general adaptation of exercise is triggered by inflammation.

• 21:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:50Andrew D. Huberman?

  This is why indeed it is true that doing ice bath or really cold water immersion, cold shower seems fine, but cold water immersion in the, you know, four to eight hours after resistance training can limit some of the hypertrophy and strength gains from resistance training because what you're inducing when you actually go into the gym is the, that leads to the hypertrophy and strength training is an inflammation response.

• 22:12Speaker 01

  Right.

• 22:12Andrew D. Huberman?

  That triggers the compensation.

• 22:13Speaker 01

  Right.

• 22:14Andrew D. Huberman?

  Or the hypercompensation. So it's interesting, you're saying that BPC, by the way, I must say this because then, forgive the editorial, but that is not to say that cold plunges and cold immersion is bad. It's just in the hours following resistance training specifically for hypertrophy and strength training. If those are your goals, probably best to do it outside of that window. Other times it has some tremendous benefits. Be safe, but there. Okay. Back to the topic again, forgive me, but this can set, it can set off a complicated storm of sorts if I'm not, if I'm not ultra clear about the details. BPC 157, strongly anti-inflammatory.

• 22:53Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 22:54Andrew D. Huberman?

  My understanding is it also may upregulate growth hormone receptors.

• 22:57Speaker 01

  It does, right. And so it works well if you're, you know, we'll get into taking a growth hormone releasing peptide. It pairs very well with that because then you're working both sides of the equation, meaning if you're using a growth hormone releasing peptide like semorelin or ipromarin, GHRP6, whatever, you're helping your pituitary put out more growth hormone. Well, if you combine it with BPC, which upregulates the growth hormone receptor, you make the process of growth hormone binding more efficient. So you get more out of it. Then you can use less of the growth hormone releasing peptide with the same result.

• 23:27Andrew D. Huberman?

  Got it.

• 23:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:28Andrew D. Huberman?

  BPC 157 comes in many different forms, or it used to when it was FDA not disallowed.

• 23:36Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 23:37Andrew D. Huberman?

  So I could imagine how the oral forms would allow for a just general anti-inflammatory response. It's a gut peptide, so we don't have to worry about it being destroyed by the gut. Most peptides that go into the gut are broken down and so.

• 23:51Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 23:52Andrew D. Huberman?

  But this peptide, when it's naturally occurring, occurs in the gut.

• 23:56Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 23:56Andrew D. Huberman?

  So it survives in the gut.

• 23:57Speaker 01

  Right.

• 23:57Andrew D. Huberman?

  So if somebody is taking BPC 157 orally through a capsule or tablet form.

• 24:02Speaker 01

  Right.

• 24:04Andrew D. Huberman?

  My guess is that has a general anti-inflammation response.

• 24:08Speaker 01

  I think it can. What we've observed is it's more limited to the gut. So people with any sort of gastrointestinal issue, whether that's inflammatory bowel disease like Crohn's or ulcerative colitis, irritable bowel, you name it, leaky gut, I think oral BPC is more effective there.

• 24:23Andrew D. Huberman?

  Has it been shown to be effective for those conditions? Or have you observed that clinically?

• 24:28Speaker 01

  I've certainly observed that clinically, but interestingly, I've observed a better clinical response when people inject it, even for gastrointestinal-related things. So I think injecting, and then, so people injecting subcu, which is right under the skin, we use the tiniest of needles, like an insulin needle, 30 or 31 gauge, we're talking super small. And so I know a lot of people like, I'm never injecting.

• 24:48Andrew D. Huberman?

  Yeah, this is less painful than a Texas mosquito bite.

• 24:51Speaker 01

  There you go. Super easy. Once you do it once or twice, it's really easy. And we walk people how to do that. But interestingly, we started thinking, okay, if you've got something going on in your gut, you should take oral BPC because it's going to target it right then. And I found, you know, if we're injecting, it actually works better than the oral. And then it came up, well, what if I've got an elbow injury? Should I inject it in my elbow? And we found, actually don't. It's going to work systemically. You can inject it in your abdomen or your rear end, you're still going to get benefit in your elbow, but now you're going to get benefit in all your joints, all over your body, systemically.

• 25:22Andrew D. Huberman?

  How do you think that's working? And my understanding is BPC 157 can initiate fibroblast migration, some of the cells that make up the various connective tissues that when injured or sore, other things can make us injured or sore, of course, but when injured or sore, those need repair. So it always was perplexing to me why one could put BPC 157 in such a small volume, under the skin, you know, just a few centimeters off the belly button, and it would somehow.

• 25:53Andrew D. Huberman?

  Seek out the injury site in an elbow or an Achilles. And there are all these wild anecdotal tales of, you know, lore of, let's just say, there was this Olympic athlete, not this last Olympics, but the previous Summer Olympics, that had a torn Achilles who came back a few weeks later and everyone was, and medaled. People were talking about, you know, took podium, that is, and people were talking about BPC 157. There was kind of this, you know, and who knows, that's just chatter and fog, as they say. But kind of wild, the idea that you could just inject something systemically, put it into the systemic circulation, into the bloodstream, and it would ferret out the location in which the injury took place and initiate a recovery response.

• 26:34Speaker 01

  But we've seen it with, not to get off topic, we've seen it with stem cells. So they've taken stem cells, they've tagged them radiographically so you can see them. In the study I read, which I can find for you, someone had a wrist, broken wrist, and they gave them intravenous stem cells. And 24 hours later, when they visualized radiographically, those stem cells had aggregated at the site of the fracture. So there's a lot, you know, about our bodies. Obviously, we don't know. There's a kind of innate human-like design and intelligence, which I believe in. I see it because we've done a lot of IV therapy over the years. And you, you know, it's interesting, when you give something intravenously, you're

• 27:19Speaker 01

  getting in the bloodstream, and you can feel some of these different compounds, we're just talking about vitamins, working within seconds. And it shows you how quickly things circulate. People don't understand, like, how quickly we move our circulation. It's massively fast.

• 27:33Andrew D. Huberman?

  One has ever gone into the hospital for a surgery and got a cold saline infusion. You realize how quickly it hits your toes, you know, they're putting it in at your elbow.

• 27:43Speaker 01

  It's almost instantaneous.

• 27:44Andrew D. Huberman?

  Yeah, within a few seconds. It also makes one appreciate how we're all generally a little bit dehydrated. When you start getting a real proper saline infusion, all of a sudden, you feel yourself come to life in a way that, oh, this is what it feels like to have just the right amount of salt in my bloodstream.

• 27:58Speaker 01

  Exactly. So going back to BPC, where I think it shines is in these ligaments and tendons, right? I think this is where most of these injuries happen, is where muscle is connecting to the bone, you know, and there's, you know, people, you know, Grow their muscle, but we don't stretch the tendons and ligaments well. And that's where we get pull, sometimes strain, sprain and tearing. And I think that's where BPC shine. That's certainly where it's been studied in animal studies. And I know that because we can inject it directly into tendons, which is unlike steroids. We would never inject steroids into a tendon. You damage the tendon. BPC, we mix with things like PRP, PRF, which is platelet rich fiber and a little bit different than PRP. And you'll get healing within days. Like it's awesome.

• 28:38Andrew D. Huberman?

  Wow.

• 28:39Speaker 01

  Super safe and it's amazing for people.

• 28:42Andrew D. Huberman?

  BPC is definitely shorthand for BPC 157, that is, is certainly in widespread use. I have been concerned, just personally.

• 28:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:52Andrew D. Huberman?

  About gray market sources.

• 28:55Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 28:55Andrew D. Huberman?

  That contain contaminants and the fact that many people are obtaining BPC 157, not from a physician, not from a compounded pharmacy.

• 29:04Speaker 01

  Right.

• 29:04Andrew D. Huberman?

  But just kind of on, quote unquote, on the internet.

• 29:07Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 29:07Andrew D. Huberman?

  You're a physician. I'm guessing that until the recent ban by the FDA, you were able to prescribe clean BPC, as it were.

• 29:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:17Andrew D. Huberman?

  What's the story with BPC now? And maybe we could talk about gray market.

• 29:21Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 29:21Andrew D. Huberman?

  Versus.

• 29:22Speaker 01

  I think it's a great question.

• 29:23Andrew D. Huberman?

  You know, versus prescribed and made it a compounding pharmacy versus pharmaceutical company pharmaceutical. So.

• 29:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:31Andrew D. Huberman?

  And then of course there's black market, but let's just leave that out.

• 29:34Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 29:34Andrew D. Huberman?

  You know, there are people that are gonna tell you, hey, this is BPC and sell it to you. That's obviously bad and dangerous.

• 29:40Speaker 01

  Well, we see that with the anabolic steroids, right? Like so anabolic steroids are in the black market. You can't really, I mean, there's one anabolic steroid, which is nandrolone, which is DECA, which can be officially prescribed. We use it, you can combine it with testosterone, all in the up and up, totally above table. The rest, things like trenbolone, others, you can't get them from a physician. In fact, you, very hard to get them from a reputable website in the United States.

• 30:05Andrew D. Huberman?

  So as long as we're here, by understanding is DECA, deravulin and testosterone cypionate are, can be prescribed? Or testosterone enanthate, things like that?

• 30:13Speaker 01

  Different.

• 30:14Andrew D. Huberman?

  By physicians.

• 30:14Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 30:15Andrew D. Huberman?

  That's because it's been FDA approved for the treatment of various things. Hypokinnatal syndrome.

• 30:19Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 30:20Andrew D. Huberman?

  Testosterone replacement therapy in both men and women.

• 30:22Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 30:23Andrew D. Huberman?

  Et cetera. So those categories of testosterone like compounds.

• 30:28Speaker 01

  Right.

• 30:29Andrew D. Huberman?

  Um, cypionate enanthate, et cetera. And. Decadrolin, which is basically like, is it similar to DHT? Is it?

• 30:38Speaker 01

  A little bit, yeah. I mean, it's, the generic name is Nandrolone. Yeah, I mean, it has the flavor of helping with joints. I think it works synergistically with things like testosterone, different, you know, whether it's testosterone, sipping it, and I like it for people who, particularly people who've been on testosterone, men who've been on testosterone replacement for a long time, which is many men. They tend to get less out of testosterone, becomes less potent, like anything, right? If you use something for a long time, you're going to get less out of it over time. Anything you expose yourself to continually doesn't work as well. And so, you know, like, to make this really real, I had a patient who was a, in the Marines and served at Secret Service for several White Houses.

• 31:23Speaker 01

  And he had a lot of, you know, osteoporosis, osteopenia, you know, bone loss. And, you know, this is where I learned about using something like Nandrolone, because we combine Nandrolone with testosterone, it changed his life. You know, this guy in his 80s, who was, had to use a cane, who came back to life, who started, you know, becoming super mobile and working out again. And synergistically, I think it works really well, not to get too far off topic, but.

• 31:47Andrew D. Huberman?

  No, it's interesting, and I think another sort of brief editorial for me, if I may, you mentioned this patient was in their 80s. I think nowadays, unfortunately, a lot of younger males in particular, guys in their, gosh, even teens, but 20s and 30s, even early 40s, think that they need to look to synthetic testosterones in order to look a certain way, perform a certain way in the gym, libido, et cetera. And I'll go on record again and again and again, saying that it's absolutely not necessary for most people of those ages, provided that they are taking good care to sleep well, eat well, take care now.

• 32:26Andrew D. Huberman?

  But I realize that there are a growing number of use cases where people, for whatever reason, aren't able to recover from exercise, they're struggling, this is a little bit like the Ozempic conversation, right? Where that there are things that can help move the needle in the right direction, pun intended, but.

• 32:44Andrew D. Huberman?

  Here with testosterone, since synthetic testosterone in DECA, there's a real concern about loss of fertility.

• 32:50Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 32:50Andrew D. Huberman?

  Right.

• 32:51Speaker 01

  I think it brings up a larger point, which is, and obviously I'm biased, but I think it's super helpful for people to have a physician help them in this course, particularly with testosterone. It is just known that people get it from their trainers, their bros from the gym, right? Who are saying, oh, you gotta use this. I mean, I have so many patients who have started using testosterone in their late teens, early twenties.

• 33:12Andrew D. Huberman?

  Goodness.

• 33:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:13Andrew D. Huberman?

  I mean, not goodness, meaning badness. That does not seem like a good idea.

• 33:16Speaker 01

  And it's still very common.

• 33:17Andrew D. Huberman?

  Goodness gracious.

• 33:18Speaker 01

  Still very common. And, you know, one in particular, this is probably 10 years ago, came to see me, he's 25, he got married, and to your point, he said, I'm ready to have kids. I have zero sperm left. Right? And that's a real thing. And so, he had been using, and I would say abusing, both testosterone and growth hormone for years. Now, what he told me was, and I get it, he was Superman. He could wake up, do a hard workout, you know, crush it, wake up the next morning, was not sore, crush it again, and just kept going, kept going. Was super fit, super happy in that regard, and how he looked, how he felt, how he performed. But then he got to a point where he was a little bit wiser, mature, and he was like, oh, my goodness, now there's repercussion for this. And I've seen that time and time again, and the repercussion is big.

• 34:02Speaker 01

  You're not making any sperm, and the sperm quality is super poor. Now, what do you do? Well, now you gotta come off testosterone, you gotta rebuild your system, which we can do. You know, we can use things like clomiphene and clomiphene HCG, lots of different agents to help in that regard, even certain peptides. But I think it brings up the large point, even getting into peptides, which is, having a physician who's knowledgeable, to me, is super helpful. The challenge for people is they don't know where to get the right information, right? And they're getting it from websites, they're getting it from people saying, oh, just try this peptide. And I've had lots of people talking about the, you know... Websites or whatever, not to name any names, who've had anaphylactic reactions to research-type peptides, which are not for human consumption. And I'm not saying that there's bad companies or whatever. You've just got to be careful. You've got to be selective at least.

• 34:47Andrew D. Huberman?

  Right. Well, what brought us on to the conversation about testosterone was this black market issue. There's also what I would call this dark, dark gray market issue, which is that there are a number of companies that will sell all sorts of things, but peptides in particular.

• 35:02Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 35:02Andrew D. Huberman?

  And listed on their website, it'll say not for human or animal consumption, for research purposes only.

• 35:08Speaker 01

  Right.

• 35:08Andrew D. Huberman?

  And one of the major issues is that the potency and cleanliness, so to speak, of purity

• 35:16Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 35:17Andrew D. Huberman?

  of those compounds is not established.

• 35:20Speaker 01

  Right.

• 35:21Andrew D. Huberman?

  And many of them have LPS, lipopolysaccharide, in them, which is inflammatory. And earlier, before we started recording, you mentioned that you have heard of or interacted with, not your patients, but people who have come to you, saying that they had, like, really serious life-threatening

• 35:37Speaker 01

  For sure.

• 35:38Andrew D. Huberman?

  consequences for using these black market, certainly, but dark gray market

• 35:42Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 35:43Andrew D. Huberman?

  peptides.

• 35:44Speaker 01

  Yeah. And so to tell the story further is back in October of 2023, the FDA put many peptides, BPC, and we can name them out, on what's called a category two list, meaning they are no longer allowed to be compounded, right? Now, that excludes then research companies who are not under the purview of the FDA. But these compounding pharmacies, it's been a huge blow because they've been told they cannot use these agents.

• 36:10Andrew D. Huberman?

  And the compounding pharmacies

• 36:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:12Andrew D. Huberman?

  are distinct from these other black and dark gray sources in that they actually can establish purity. They are designed to be injected into humans.

• 36:22Speaker 01

  And they have a totally different standard, right? So they, and I think it's confusing for people when they hear compounding pharmacy, they thought fringe. They're not fringe. They're FDA regulated. They're board of pharmacy regulated in every state. They are monitored. They are inspected all the time. I've worked with compounding pharmacies my whole career, which is going on, you know, close to 25 years now. Just like anything, there's some amazing compounding pharmacies and there's some not so amazing compounding pharmacies which cut corners. The ones we work with don't cut any corners and I know that because they're inspected all the time, right? And it's a big deal to them and they want to do it right with purity, with processing, and making sure that anything they make, especially a sterile compound, which is going to be anything injected, you know, eye drops, things you inject in yourself, whether it's

• 37:03Speaker 01

  IV, subQ, or intramuscular, they're considered sterile. They have to then be tested by an outside lab to make sure purity, make sure that there's no endotoxins, things like that. It's highly regulated and it's a big deal for them. And it's a big deal for the physician to, you know, prescribe with them, which I appreciate because the advantage of a compounding pharmacy is we can tweak the dosage. We don't have to use a standard set dosage. We can combine things synergistically to get, you know, one plus one doesn't equal two, now it equals four. And that, to me, is a huge advantage. Just like we were talking about with the GLP-1, semaglutide, and tirzepatide. We get those compounded so that, you know, we have a, the compounding pharmacy we're using now, we're making a unique combination

• 37:47Speaker 01

  of tirzepatide and semaglutide, right? Which will address some of this muscle loss that people are getting. So we can combine that.

• 37:54Andrew D. Huberman?

  Semaglutide to stimulate growth hormone release, offset some of the muscle loss from tirzepatide.

• 37:59Speaker 01

  Exactly. Yeah. And so you can do things like that with a compounding pharmacy. But again, just to make sure people understand, compounding pharmacies are highly regulated, highly regulated. Again, there's always going to be bad apples, but, you know, physicians who know how to work with compounding pharmacies, I think, provide access to things that these conventional, both pharmaceuticals and conventional pharmacies can't.

• 38:19Andrew D. Huberman?

  I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, AG1. AG1 is a vitamin mineral probiotic drink that also includes prebiotics and adaptogens. AG1 is designed to cover all of your foundational nutritional needs and it tastes great. Now, I've been drinking AG1 since 2012 and I started doing that at a time when my budget for supplements was really limited. In fact, I only had enough money back then to purchase one supplement and I'm so glad that I made that supplement, AG1. The reason for that is even though I strive to eat most My foods from whole foods and minimally processed foods. It's very difficult for me to get enough fruits, vegetables, vitamins and minerals, micronutrients and adaptogens from food alone. And I need to do that in order to ensure that I have enough energy throughout the day.

• 39:04Andrew D. Huberman?

  I sleep well at night and keep my immune system strong. But when I take AG1 daily, I find that all aspects of my health, my physical health, my mental health and my performance, both cognitive and physical are better. I know that because I've had lapses when I didn't take AG1 and I certainly felt the difference. I also notice, and this makes perfect sense, given the relationship between the gut microbiome and the brain, that when I regularly take AG1, which for me means a serving in the morning or mid morning and again later in the afternoon or evening, that I have more mental clarity and more mental energy. If you'd like to try AG1, you can go to drinkag1.com/huberman to claim a special offer. Right now, they're giving away five free travel packs and a year's supply of vitamin D3 K2.

• 39:45Andrew D. Huberman?

  Again, that's drinkag1.com/huberman to claim that special offer. So is it fair to say that if one is interested in exploring the use of peptides for what you refer to as performance medicine? Yep. Mental, physical health and performance. Yes. Falls underneath that. To essentially only put peptides into their body, maybe even on their body surface that they're obtaining from a physician who's obtained the peptides from a compounding pharmacy. Yeah, and who's developing a relationship. So we, for any peptide that we use, we meet with the patient. We make sure they're a good fit. We make sure that there's no contraindications. We also can recommend and specifically dial it up or down, whatever it is, come up with,

• 40:30Andrew D. Huberman?

  this is what we think you should use based upon your life experience, the medicines you're taking or not taking, the conditions you're treating or not treating. Right? I think that's really important. Again, I'm biased being a physician. My whole goal is to get to know patients. That's why I'm here is to kind of walk that walk and help people in that regard. And, you know, if someone's out there on the internet doing it themselves.

• 40:51Speaker 01

  They're walking in, you know, kind of, you know, on their own. And so, you know, not to make it like everything bad is going to happen. But when you're, when you have the help of someone who has experience, that goes a long way. I think particularly with something like this.

• 41:04Andrew D. Huberman?

  Yeah, I agree. And, um, and it worries me very much that people are buying PPC from gray mark, dark gray market or, uh, uh, black market sources. And anything that says on it, not for animal or human use, for research purposes only, you can pretty much guarantee the endotoxin, the lipopolysaccharide, at least has not been removed. And that can be really problematic, especially since my understanding is that it can be cumulative over time. It's not that one injection causes somebody to go into anaphylactic shock. It's that some of this LPS can build up a, an inflammatory response over time. And then you don't know where the tipping point is. And then somebody can have a really terrible reaction.

• 41:42Speaker 01

  Well, and then taking a step further, you know, getting away from just peptides. But I remember this was, I don't know, 15 years ago, someone was taking advice from a very famous doctor on TV about taking an oral compound to lose weight. And they called me up and they said, oh, I'm having terrible headaches, terrible headaches for days. It came in, their blood pressure was through the roof. You know, like, I don't remember the specific numbers, but let's just say 220 over 140. And normally it's 120 over 80. Well, did you take anything different? Oh yeah, this doctor recommended I take this weight loss compound. Right? So the problem is, is people have access to all this information. But if they're not under the guidance of a doctor to help clean up the mess, and we

• 42:24Speaker 01

  clean up the mess, and not that there's always mess, but this is what we enjoy doing. You know, as, as a physician, like we've seen the darkest of dark, you know, we're able to help people when things don't go perfectly planned. And I think that's a big deal, you know, particularly when there's lots of these tools and they're exciting tools and they're great tools. And fortunately for me, I've been in this space longer than most that I've just, you know, built up a large repertoire of experience of observing people and working with people and seeing, we got to tweak this, we got to nuance this, or sometimes we don't ever want to use this again. You know, this is not for most people.

• 42:59Andrew D. Huberman?

  So, given that BPC157 has been effectively removed from the legitimate market.

• 43:06Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 43:07Andrew D. Huberman?

  What are people's alternatives? Again, working with the caveat that people should work with a physician.

• 43:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:16Andrew D. Huberman?

  Where can physicians get something similar enough to BPC157?

• 43:20Speaker 01

  So, there's a new compound, newer peptide called, the shortened for PDA, pentadecaraginate. It's basically the same molecular structure as BPC, except they've swapped out an acetate for arginine.

• 43:34Andrew D. Huberman?

  One amino acid substitution.

• 43:36Speaker 01

  Correct. One amino acid substitution. And so, we're using that and having really good results. I'm certainly, it's early in the game of using PDA, but it seems very close to BPC in the clinical responses we're getting from our patients who are reporting back decrease in inflammation, all these wonderful things that we used to see with BPC. So, and I think, I surmise that this is going, how it's going to be with all of these peptides, right? Because, again, peptides are just chains of amino acids.

• 44:07Speaker 01

  You know, certainly, a lot of people smarter than me trying to figure out how do we then create other types of amino acid combinations, you know, i.e. peptides that do similar actions to BPC, to thymus and alpha, to ipramorone, to TB500, on and on and on. So, I'm hopeful in that regard. And I also, you know, some of my patients work at the very highest level of the US government. They are well aware of this and who have assured me they're going to look at this, that this is serious, you know, because they're, they've been using peptides. And they're concerned that, oh, my goodness, the FDA came in and changed the game. Very, it's been a huge setback for all of us.

• 44:44Andrew D. Huberman?

  I definitely want to circle back as to what the motivation was by the FDA for doing that.

• 44:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:50Andrew D. Huberman?

  At some point.

• 44:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:51Andrew D. Huberman?

  I think, in the meantime, however, I think there's a lot of interest in BPC157, a lot of use of BPC157. The sources of BPC157 are now drying up.

• 45:03Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 45:03Andrew D. Huberman?

  And That's why I'm personally concerned that people are going to start going to the dark gray market and black market. I'm excited about the pentadecarogenate.

• 45:12Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 45:13Andrew D. Huberman?

  So let's put that on people's ear map, brain map. Pentadecarogenate may be a good physician prescribed substitution for people that can benefit from BPC 157.

• 45:24Speaker 01

  And a good starting dose, so to make it really clear for people and helpful, 250 micrograms to 500 micrograms. We're using 500 micrograms injected daily. Again, we like Monday through Friday, take the weekends off. That's a good dosing schedule. We'll, we'll see how that goes. We probably can use larger dosages. That's conservative, but that's a good starting point for people.

• 45:43Andrew D. Huberman?

  And thus far, you haven't mentioned any side effects of BPC 157 or pentadecarogenate. It's, that's kind of remarkable.

• 45:51Speaker 01

  It's been tremendous. Yeah. And we were using BPC intravenously as well. You know, patients would come in and, you know, oh, tweaked my knee, tore my ACL, tore my, you know, meniscus, whatever. You can give them BPC essentially as a bolus intravenously. My goodness, that made a difference. Now that, using something intravenously from the pharmacokinetic standpoint, it's not going to last in the system very much. It's more of a spark. Whereas if you use an agent subcutaneously, you're going to get more of a long lasting, you know, again, not terribly long lasting with peptides, but longer than using something intravenously. Kind of the sweet spot was certainly using both. You could use something as a spark to initiate that inflammatory cascade, then follow up with a subcutaneous dose. Yeah.

• 46:34Andrew D. Huberman?

  And even though earlier we were talking a little bit about some hormone replacement therapies.

• 46:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:40Andrew D. Huberman?

  Before that, off a microphone, you mentioned that you prefer peptides to direct hormone manipulations in most cases. So I think while peptides can be hormones, there are things like oxytocin is sometimes called a peptide hormone. In general, when people think about hormone therapies, they're thinking testosterone, estrogen, pregnenolone, you know, thyroid, et cetera. It, it sounds to me like much of your practice is built up around the, the notion that there are things that one can use, peptides, to Kind of push and pull on these various systems without getting into them directly. My understanding is the advantage of that is you don't get the negative feedback. You don't gain the shutting down of natural production.

• 47:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know, and testosterone is a great example. Because, like we were saying, I don't ever want to manipulate hormones. You know, growth hormone is another example. I don't ever want to manipulate that, meaning, you know, providing it to people more than they would get in nature. This is why I actually don't, a little bit off topic, like when people use testosterone pellets or any sort of pellet therapy. Because you're exposing people to a concentration of hormones we would never, ever see in nature. I would prefer people inject it, where you're going to get some variation in dose on a day to day basis, which we're human. So we do get some day to day variation, or topically, or under the tongue or something. Peptides, same thing, I don't want to manipulate the hormones, right? I want to just stick within kind of the highways or the lanes, swim lanes for how they should operate.

• 48:09Speaker 01

  And then take advantage of that. And that's been a safe way to do it, as opposed to, and I've seen it, you know, talking about another peptide, which is ipramorin, a growth hormone releasing peptide. Ipramorin, you inject under the skin, travels up to the pituitary, the posterior pituitary in the brain, which is responsible for putting out growth hormone. That growth hormone then leaves the pituitary, enters the bloodstream, travels to the liver, where we make insulin like growth factor one, which then enters the circulation, is very anabolic, meaning growth, healing, mending. You know, as we get older, we make less growth hormone. As we get older, we wear down, obviously, we get, you know, degenerative conditions. Part of that, I don't know what part, if everyone's a little bit different, is because of our hormonal decline.

• 48:53Speaker 01

  And so when you can give something like ipramorin, and we can talk about others, you're actually helping not only push out a little bit of growth hormone for people, you're directing when you push it out, right? We think, that's why it's important for people to be asleep by 10:00 PM, between 10:00 PM and 2:00 AM, because you think that's the largest pulse of growth hormone during the 24 hour period.

• 49:12Andrew D. Huberman?

  Is that right? So I've long wondered whether or not the tale I was told when I was growing up, which is that every hour before midnight is worth two hours of sleep post midnight. That feels true to me.

• 49:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:25Andrew D. Huberman?

  Then again, feels true is often misleading, but feels true to me. But it makes perfect sense if the largest pulse in the growth hormone is occurring in the couple of hours before midnight.

• 49:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, that's how I learned it. I agree with you. It feels true to me as well. But taking advantage then of injecting something like ipramorin at bedtime, then you're gonna, within a few minutes, and with ipramorin, it's interesting because people will get a little flushing, tingling at times. And what I've seen, with the point I'm making, is there are some physicians and some pharmacies, which the dosage of ipramorin and most of these growth hormone-releasing peptides should be 100 micrograms. That's the max dose for to bind the receptor. And what I've seen is with ipramorin, rare, but some people do get anaphylaxis. And it's happened. And I think that happens when people are pushing it and giving more than they should.

• 50:19Speaker 01

  And I've heard of that, and they're giving 200, 300, 400 micrograms at a time, which is a big dose. Now, what they're getting is the client, the patient is like, oh, my gosh, I feel this amazing flushing. It must be working. Then you could spiral into, oh, my goodness, I don't feel so good, and your circulation system collapsing. So.

• 50:36Andrew D. Huberman?

  Yeah, using side effects as a indicator of whether or not something's working just seems like a terrible idea.

• 50:43Speaker 01

  But it's very common.

• 50:46Andrew D. Huberman?

  I tend to be very conservative about these things. And by the way, I've tried various peptides for short periods of time because I like to experiment very safely. And some things like sermarolin, and we'll talk about other growth hormones, secretagogues, for me, for whatever reason, gave me great sleep, but only in the first part of the night. It nuked my rapid eye movement sleep in the second half of the night. It spiked my prostate-specific antigen. It was a very consistent effect. I came off it, and it went back down, and it went back on, it went back up. And so I just found I couldn't take it. And it didn't take me very long to figure that out. But I know that there are some people who love sermarolin and don't see any of the same issues. So it seems like it can be very individual.

• 51:27Speaker 01

  I agree with that. I agree with that. And that's why I think it's, again, helpful to work with a physician who has experience, who can kind of, I think of these peptides as having flavors, particularly the growth hormone-releasing peptides, ipramorin. Very clean, you know, as long as you stay within a hundred micrograms or less, people are going to lean out a little bit, sleep a little bit better. There's no real side effects.

• 51:47Andrew D. Huberman?

  They take it pre-sleep.

• 51:49Speaker 01

  Pre-sleep at bedtime.

• 51:50Andrew D. Huberman?

  Without carbohydrates ingested in the previous two hours, correct?

• 51:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, or forty five minutes technically. Yeah, but that's right. And then they're saying like growth hormone releasing peptide six, GHRP six, which is also going to bind. So I think of ipramorone being the most specific for the growth hormone receptor, but the weakest. So when you inject it, you will get growth hormone to come out and only growth hormone, but it's not going to be a big burst of growth hormone. You inject GHRP six, now you may bind some prolactin. Now you may bind some ACTH, which is going to have your adrenals put out cortisol. Now you're going to get a hunger response, right?

• 52:21Andrew D. Huberman?

  And maybe even have trouble sleeping if you're getting.

• 52:23Speaker 01

  May have trouble sleeping, but where that's beneficial for is if you're looking to put on mass or get strong, GHRP six is your go-to, right? Because you will increase your appetite. And if you're smart, you'll eat a lot more protein. You know, and the building of muscle is not necessarily complicated, right? It's resistance training, sufficient protein, which is where I think most people fall off. And then having some anabolic kind of hormone in the background, like growth hormone or testosterone are both helps that process. That's where GHRP six can shine. I mean, within weeks, people will get big and strong, increase their bench press, whatever. Stuff flat out works, but you got to know how to use it and understand the flavors. So the point I'm making is these different peptides have different flavors. And to your point, there's individual responses.

• 53:07Speaker 01

  That's, that can be a good thing.

• 53:09Andrew D. Huberman?

  I think for most of our audience, the interest in growth hormone secretagogues probably relates to the better sleep and the overall feelings of vitality.

• 53:17Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 53:17Andrew D. Huberman?

  And probably most people are seeking to not spike their appetite or put on muscle, really. These days, we're hearing more and more from people, both men and women, who want to be strong without being big.

• 53:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:30Andrew D. Huberman?

  And they prefer to be lean as opposed to not lean, which I think is a great goal. Frankly, that's my goal at this stage of life. I just turned forty nine yesterday and I.

• 53:38Speaker 01

  Happy birthday.

• 53:38Andrew D. Huberman?

  Oh, thank you. Thank you. Yeah. Thanks for coming out to the, the birthday.

• 53:42Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 53:43Andrew D. Huberman?

  That was a lot of fun. Mini bash the other day. It was a lot of fun.

• 53:47Andrew D. Huberman?

  You know, I, I, yeah, I want to be strong and capable. I also want to be able to run and have cardiovascular fitness, but I don't want to be large. I don't want to take up a lot of space. I'm not interested in taking up a lot of space. And I think most people fall into that category. So if GHRP6 can spike appetite, which for a subset of people might be useful, but probably most people will want to avoid it. Ipomorlin, I've always been calling it ipimorlin, but ipimorlin at 100 micrograms dosage or less per night, sounds like it's an interesting tool. What are some of the other growth hormone secretagogues? And I should just brief, I'll, I'll take the liberty of defining that. These are peptides that stimulate the release of your own endogenous growth hormone. This is not taking growth hormone.

• 54:29Speaker 01

  Right. Yeah. Yeah. Two other main ones that we use, one would be tessimorelin, which is similar to semorelin, and that it also is going to work on the growth hormone releasing hormone aspect, a little bit higher up in the, you know, chain of how these hormones are released. So both semorelin and tessimorelin, you, you don't necessarily need to add anything else to it. Classically with ipimorlin, hexorlin, GHRP6, we would add this other compound, CJC1295, which is going to work on the GHRH, which allows the peptide and then the growth hormone to stay in your system a little bit longer.

• 55:06Andrew D. Huberman?

  The growth hormone releasing hormone.

• 55:08Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 55:08Andrew D. Huberman?

  Yeah, but we can almost set aside CJC now because CJC1295, the FDA just came in and let's just say one acronym took out another.

• 55:17Speaker 01

  There you go.

• 55:18Andrew D. Huberman?

  The FDA took out CJC.

• 55:19Speaker 01

  That's right. And BPC.

• 55:21Andrew D. Huberman?

  Yeah, and BPC. People are probably getting a little dizzy with these acronyms, but I think we're doing a good job of guiding people along. So semorelin and tessimorelin are similar enough.

• 55:34Speaker 01

  Similar in that regard. Tessimorelin, again, talking about flavors, tessimorelin works on visceral fat reduction, so fat around the organs.

• 55:41Andrew D. Huberman?

  And it's been FDA approved for that purpose.

• 55:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, with HIV patients having this lipodystrophy, which is, you know, You know, abnormal accumulation of fat, in particular visceral fat around organs. So tesmrolin works well for that. My observation from using it for lots and lots of people seems to work better in females than males.

• 55:59Andrew D. Huberman?

  Or does it get lead to this feeling of enhanced sleep as well?

• 56:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, so I think any of the growth hormone releasing peptides, anytime you're going to make growth hormone more active in your world, that's how I think about it. Better sleep, better skin tone, texture, right? You're more resilient. I think growth hormone is a resiliency hormone, durability. You know, people find that, oh, I do a hard workout, but it takes me days to recover. I sprained my ankle, it takes me a week to recover. I cut my skin, it takes me forever to heal. They've got a durability issue. And that's how I think about where growth hormone can shine. Not that you got to go all the way to growth hormone, but these peptides can be a really nice push.

• 56:33Andrew D. Huberman?

  And this is taken before sleep? No food within 45 minutes of the injection?

• 56:37Speaker 01

  And then what, and then the kind of the magic, then what we do is, you know, when we first started about eight years ago, we'd use one peptide at a time. And then what we learned is, let's combine these peptides, let's stack peptides. And that's how we do it.

• 56:49Andrew D. Huberman?

  At lower dosages?

• 56:50Speaker 01

  Sometimes lower dosages. But for example, we had a great combination, BPC, ipramorin and tesmrolin all together, taken at bedtime. And you're going to get subcutaneous fat reduction from the ipramorin, visceral fat reduction from the tesmrolin, upregulation of the growth hormone receptor from the BPC. It was a wonderful peptide. We kind of labeled it as a fat loss peptide, but people would put on lean muscle mass, they'd sleep better, their skin would be better, they'd be more durable, their thought process would be better. Awesome stuff. And that's where I think that's where we enjoy it, is stacking these peptides together. So it's not, again, just one peptide at a time, but able to do it. And that's why, again, working with a compounding pharmacy, we can put these together. So you're only doing one shot a day. You may be doing three to seven peptides, but it's still one shot.

• 57:36Andrew D. Huberman?

  Got it. And if one is combining tesmrolin or sermrolin, ipramorin and, well, not BPC anymore, but pentadeca arginate instead, because you can't get BPC157 compounded.

• 57:53Andrew D. Huberman?

  Is that done every night, five days a week, three days a week? What's the rationale of this five days on, two days off?

• 58:00Speaker 01

  Five days on, two days off, I came up with because of how we would dose growth hormone. So the traditional growth hormone dosing cycle would be five days on, two days off, taken at bedtime. Yeah. And that's where it came up. And then I, I personally, with patients and myself, I like to take breaks. So even with supplements, I won't take them on the weekends. Right? Because I think you, we, you know, again, anything you expose yourself to on a regular basis is going to decrease the potency. We see that with exercise, we see that with food. If you're eating the same food every day, it seems to become less valuable for you. Right? Like, change it up. Like, we, we have to, you know, throw on the crazy switch every now and then. But change it up. And so then you're going to make it more potent for you. I do the same thing with supplements. So that, you know, just resonates with me, with people, to take a break from stuff.

• 58:45Andrew D. Huberman?

  I'd like to take a quick break and thank one of our sponsors, Function. I recently became a Function member after searching for the most comprehensive approach to lab testing. While I've long been a fan of blood testing, I really wanted to find a more in-depth program for analyzing blood, urine, and saliva to get a full picture of my heart health, my hormone status, my immune system regulation, my metabolic function, my vitamin and mineral status, and other critical areas of my overall health and vitality. Function not only provides testing of over 100 biomarkers key to physical and mental health, but it also analyzes these results and provides insights from top doctors on your results. For example, in one of my first tests with Function, I learned that I had two high levels of mercury in my blood. This was totally surprising to me.

• 59:30Andrew D. Huberman?

  I had no idea prior to taking the test. Function not only helped me detect this, but offered medical doctor-informed insights on how to best reduce those mercury levels, which included limiting my tuna consumption, because I had been eating a lot of tuna, while also making an effort to eat more leafy greens and supplementing with NAC and acetylcysteine, both of which can support glutathione production and detoxification and worked to reduce my mercury levels. Comprehensive lab testing like this is so important for health. And while I've been doing it for years, I've always found it to be overly complicated and expensive. I've been so Impressed by Function, both at the level of ease of use, that is getting the tests done, as well as how comprehensive and how actionable the tests are,

• 1:00:11Andrew D. Huberman?

  that I recently joined their advisory board and I'm thrilled that they're sponsoring the podcast. If you'd like to try Function, go to functionhealth.com/huberman. Function currently has a waitlist of over 250,000 people, but they're offering early access to Huberman Lab listeners. Again, that's functionhealth.com/huberman to get early access to Function. Today's episode is also brought to us by Eight Sleep. Eight Sleep makes smart mattress covers with cooling, heating, and sleep tracking capacity. Now, I've spoken many times before on this podcast about the critical need for us to get adequate amounts of quality sleep each night. That's truly the foundation of all mental health, physical health, and performance. And one of the best ways to ensure that you get a great night's sleep is to control the temperature of your sleeping environment. And that's because in order to fall and stay deeply asleep,

• 1:00:56Andrew D. Huberman?

  your body temperature actually has to drop by about one to three degrees. And in order to wake up feeling refreshed and energized, your body temperature actually has to increase about one to three degrees. Eight Sleep makes it incredibly easy to control the temperature of your sleeping environment by allowing you to control the temperature of your mattress cover at the beginning, middle, and end of the night. I've been sleeping on an Eight Sleep mattress cover for nearly four years now, and it has completely transformed and improved the quality of my sleep. Eight Sleep has now launched their newest generation of the Pod cover, the Pod 4 Ultra. The Pod 4 Ultra has improved cooling and heating capacity, higher fidelity sleep tracking technology, and even has snoring detection that will automatically lift your head a few degrees to improve your airflow and stop your snoring. If you'd like to try an Eight Sleep mattress cover,

• 1:01:39Andrew D. Huberman?

  go to eightsleep.com/huberman to save up to $350 off their Pod 4 Ultra. Eight Sleep currently ships in the USA, Canada, UK, select countries in the EU, and Australia. Again, that's eightsleep.com/huberman. Before we started recording, you mentioned that you're actually not a huge fan of taking massive amounts of supplements, that you are a big fan of taking CoQ10, Coenzyme Q10, 200 milligrams per day in the morning. I also take CoQ10. I think I started taking it for, quote unquote, "general mitochondrial health." I don't know that I thought very carefully about exactly what I was trying to accomplish with it.

• 1:02:18Speaker 01

  But what is the rationale of taking CoQ10? So if I can break it down and try to keep it simple, if we, people are familiar with the mitochondria, it's the battery of the cell, these little organelles inside each cell, and they're responsible for, you know, doing many things, but primarily making ATP, chemical energy. And so how do we make energy? Well, there's three main ways the body uses it, right? Or makes it. First is glycolysis. We take glucose, which is a six-carbon molecule. We break it in half to make two pyruvates, right? That, when we do that, we make a little bit of ATP. That pyruvate then is converted to something called acetyl CoA. We run that through the Krebs cycle, where we're also making ATP, but then we're making these intermediate products.

• 1:03:02Speaker 01

  One of those intermediate products, and the main one is something called NADH. That NADH is then shuttled to the mitochondrial membrane for, you know, this is the magic where we make the most ATP. And there's five different hubs, or we call cytochromes, right? And this is how I think about it, because I just like to simplify. Cytochrome 1 is where we use NAD. And what the, what the different hubs are doing is we're exchanging electrons for protons. And that's a kind of electrical process. We're exchanging electrons for protons, going down the assembly line to eventually turn this wheel, the ATPase wheel, to make ATP. The way I understand it is the five different hubs, different nutrients hit them. So cytochrome 1 is NAD. Cytochrome 2 is riboflavin, vitamin B2, and succinic acid.

• 1:03:47Speaker 01

  Cytochrome 3 is CoQ10, vitamin K2. Cytochrome 4 is methylene blue, which we can talk about. And then cytochrome 5 are things like magnesium, vitamin A, and copper. So if you're thinking about mitochondrial health, if you include any, or better all of those, you're going to maximize how your mitochondria can work and make energy. It's the strongest way to do it, and it's, again, not necessarily complicated. So when I think of CoQ10, and again, we use a lot of NAD, which we can talk about. Where I think most people, the traffic congestion happens on cytochrome 1, right? And so when we give people or upregulate their NAD production, it's essentially we're allowing for more electron flow at cytochrome 1, which has a downstream effect on the other cytochromes, so the traffic jam opens up.

• 1:04:32Speaker 01

  And now you can move electrons to exchange for protons and make way more ATP. And if you're, but that's not true for everyone. And so some people, it could be at cytochrome 3 with CoQ10, it could be at cytochrome 2. A lot of people at cytochrome 4, which is again cytochrome, we call it cytochrome C oxidase, which is where methylene blue binds. But that's just a simplistic view. We just, people, we run into traffic jams, right? These electron flow gets stuck, we're just trying to open up the traffic jam.

• 1:04:55Andrew D. Huberman?

  So 200mg a day of coenzyme Q10 can be, can facilitate some of that.

• 1:05:01Speaker 01

  Right, cytochrome 3 for sure.

• 1:05:02Andrew D. Huberman?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:03Speaker 01

  And CoQ10 has been studied very safe, up to 2,400mg a day. No harmful, yep, no harmful effects. Sometimes I'll take more, like I was telling you earlier, it's been dramatic for me with migraine headaches and basically reducing them to zero.

• 1:05:15Andrew D. Huberman?

  You know, as people are hearing this, they're probably thinking, okay, well, these are just, you know, this is what I call anecdotal or whatever. I, you know, I don't have to remind people that you're a board certified physician. I think that what was, what's still ringing in the back of my mind, this entire conversation, even though I'm paying very careful attention, is that most of the drugs that are prescribed in this country are off-label.

• 1:05:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:05:35Andrew D. Huberman?

  I think that just like, I don't think I've ever heard that stated out loud.

• 1:05:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:05:39Andrew D. Huberman?

  It's wild.

• 1:05:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:05:41Andrew D. Huberman?

  Right, so the idea that people would take something that wasn't shown in a clinical trial to be effective for purpose A, that they would, but it gets, that it gets approved for purpose A.

• 1:05:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:05:52Andrew D. Huberman?

  But then can be prescribed by doctors for purpose B, C, D, or E.

• 1:05:56Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:05:56Andrew D. Huberman?

  I mean, you're not telling me this is commonplace, you're telling me this is the majority of prescription drugs.

• 1:06:02Speaker 01

  But it makes sense if you think about it, right? So if you took an antibiotic, right, like we can just, and antibiotics can be very specific what it gets approved for in terms of like working against a specific bacteria. But then through clinical use and just experience, you know, we learned that, oh, I can use doxycycline or a Z-Pak, azithromycin, or whatever it is for a variety of bacterial infections that extend well beyond just what is approved for. Well, that makes sense.

• 1:06:27Andrew D. Huberman?

  And, and does that ever cycle back to the clinical trials? Or no, this just becomes physician understanding and lore? Like, hey, yeah, you know, I've got patients that, you know, they get on, on azithromycin and their, their acne clears up. By the way, I'm not saying that, folks. I'm not a physician, but, but for instance.

• 1:06:43Speaker 01

  Exactly what happened with semaglutide and azempic, right? Approved for helping glucose utilization or lowering, you know, blood glucose in patients with type 2 diabetes. And they found through use only, people were losing weight. And now it's become blockbuster. And it's, and we see it with, you know, things like, you know, repurposing drugs for cancer, right? There's, there's, there's a lot of that going on, a lot of the repurposing. So, you know, doxycycline is a very common one that's used in cancer therapies, I think, by sophisticated oncologists. I don't treat cancer, but by sophisticated oncologists to use things like doxycycline, metformin, bendezol, which is an anti-parasitic drug, right? To help with cancer. So that's amazing.

• 1:07:25Andrew D. Huberman?

  So interesting. It is amazing. I think also, you know, I'm, I'm reminded that, you know, medicine, as beautiful a field as it is, I have tremendous respect for it, of course, is a field of, of fairly siloed training. And I love the idea that now, thanks to public education efforts like this one, that you're providing us, that physicians learn from each other in a much broader way and can potentially hear about what drugs can be useful for this or that. The other thing, and this is not editorial, this is, this is a real observation.

• 1:08:05Andrew D. Huberman?

  Pharmaceutical companies are very interested in the other uses of already approved drugs.

• 1:08:09Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:08:10Andrew D. Huberman?

  The research and development process for a drug, the safety evaluation is incredibly expensive. So they want nothing more than to take a drug that's already been approved for one purpose and to take that already safety approved drug and find other uses. How are they not circling back to the off-label use and understanding of these compounds? And then essentially marketing them for these other purposes? Or I guess with Ozempic, that's exactly what happened.

• 1:08:39Speaker 01

  That's what happened with Ozempic. I mean, it's, again, I write prescriptions. I think there's a time and place. I think it's challenging for me though, right? And I think for a lot of physicians, it's become challenging operating in a paradigm where we talk about chronic disease, which is essentially failing. I mean, and we all know this statistically, we're not making huge dents in heart disease, cancer, autoimmune disease, neurodegenerates. We're not at all, but we're spending exorbitant amounts of money, right? And this is, you know, something that I had to learn over time. And I don't know how I got into it, but when I started my practice back in 2006, I started, it was a traditional family medicine

• 1:09:20Speaker 01

  practice, but I started using these nutritional IVs. And this is before hangover IVs, this was before this was popular. This is, you know, 20 years ago. And what I learned was that these nutritional IVs help people feel better quickly. And I developed this model for my patients, which I think is a better model, which is I want to help people feel better first, like we were talking about earlier in this podcast. Because if I can get people to feel better, what we learned through COVID, and honestly, what I want to say to you, Andrew, which is really true, your podcast and what you do has been so successful at a time during the pandemic when people lost so much trust in people like me, right? People lost that trust of what do I do? You know, my, this is a scary

• 1:10:04Speaker 01

  time. I don't know what's going on. And you guys come along, you in particular, providing this very stable, vetted information that people can trust and have a starting point and be like, this is what I want to do. Because health, one of the gifts of COVID was it put our health on the forefront of most people's mind and life.

• 1:10:24Speaker 01

  And so what you're doing is tremendous work. And I can tell you personally. Thank you. No, literally, like, as a physician, I am just, it's such an honor to be here and to talk to you because every day, every day, my patients come to me and said, I heard this on the Huberman Lab podcast. What do you think of it? And I am not joking, and I love that. I think it is awesome because people, one, taking their health seriously, but two, they have a stable resource that they can trust. The problem with physicians, and I'll tie this back in, is physicians are hard to trust, right? And it's this paternalistic model, which is, and that's how I was trained, which is,

• 1:11:07Speaker 01

  you know, you're gonna do this because I'm gonna tell you to do it, right? And I remember being in medical school, which was in the 90s, and I can't remember the exact specifics of the study, but they would go, they did a study where they collected the trash outside of physicians' offices, found that greater than 30% of prescriptions written that day were thrown away. Greater than 30%. Wow. And I remember learning that, and I was like, what is going on? By the patients. Correct. Like, you came to the doctor because you wanted a prescription, right? No. You came to the doctor because you weren't feeling good. You came to the doctor because you wanted to be listened to. You came to the doctor because you wanted to be validated. And most of the time, and this still happens to today, the vast majority of doctors will

• 1:11:50Speaker 01

  just write you a prescription, or they'll write you two prescriptions. And that's not what most people want. Sometimes it is, and I do it, and sometimes it is. But there are so many other tools that we can use. And so when I help people feel better first, why I've been successful, and I work with, you know, the peak, you know, people on this planet, whether the athletes, the best athletes, celebrities, the royal family, you name it, I'm so privileged. It's because they trust me. And that trust is really important. I take that really seriously. You know what I mean? And so, you know, tying it back in is we've lost a lot of that with the pandemic. It's actually come to the forefront. And so that's why I want to help people feel better first.

• 1:12:33Speaker 01

  You know, the traditional model of medicine is just get a diagnosis, write a prescription. If that prescription doesn't work, write another prescription. And so, yes, there's a time and place for that, but there's also time and place for just helping people. It only works when people value themselves enough. Like we're talking, I can tie this back to weight loss, right? Why do people have such trouble losing weight? I would argue that most people don't value themselves enough to actually care enough to make the hard disciplinary choices in their life, to get away from emotionally eating. You know what I mean? To do the right things that they actually, it's going to be a struggle to get the right food for themselves, get away from processed foods, to be disciplined, to go to the gym on a regular basis. They don't have the right people that they trust.

• 1:13:18Speaker 01

  This is where you've been such a gift, tremendous gift.

• 1:13:21Andrew D. Huberman?

  Thank you for the kind words. I mean, the, the, um, the birth of the podcast did take place during the pandemic and in large part because I saw everybody getting very anxious, their circadian rhythms disrupted. And those were focuses of my laboratory. And, and frankly, when I was a postdoc and graduate student, but especially as I got a little older in my years, I couldn't believe that, you know, I was reading these papers about how important morning sunlight is and all these things. But then my colleagues were all getting sick and dying around me or getting what we call the tenured look. Where they show up, you know, start their job and five years later, they look like they've aged 25 years. And I realized that I, I wanted to avoid that. So I've always just enjoyed learning and sharing science and health tools.

• 1:14:05Andrew D. Huberman?

  And so, thank you for the, the kind words. I've, I've certainly.

• 1:14:11Andrew D. Huberman?

  Been kind of both astonished and positively amazed in the ways that the pandemic and the post pandemic years, I like to think we're in the post pandemic years.

• 1:14:22Speaker 01

  I do too.

• 1:14:22Andrew D. Huberman?

  I think we can safely say that. And now, how they've drawn people's attention to this idea that they need to take agency into their own healthcare, that no one, no pill, potion, injection, et cetera, can replace good behaviors. Pills, potions and injections can potentially augment those good behaviors and get people going down the right path, which is what we're talking about today. But that it's a, it's really a personal responsibility. I mean, no, no one can give us a calmer mind. No one can give us a healthier body. No, no one can do that, right? You can, it's interesting that some of the wealthiest people in the world, the new thing isn't for people to boast about their, their yachts or their properties. It's about their health.

• 1:15:05Andrew D. Huberman?

  It's about their vitality, their longevity, because that's the thing that I suppose in some sense, money can start to buy, but it doesn't require a ton of funds to take great care of one's, one's body and mind.

• 1:15:17Speaker 01

  It doesn't. And what I've learned, and I've had to learn this over time, and I think the wisdom is, is, and this is why it's, it's even more challenging, because I think people, you know, go on social media and they listen to podcasts and they listen to influencers and, and a lot of the messages is additive, right? If you're not doing a high intensity workout every day and then doing sauna for X amount of time and then cold plunge and all this kind of dieting, you're not doing it well. I know that that is cumulative, that, that stress of that is cumulative to people, right? And so what I've learned, and I have a really good friend, probably the most, you know, affluent, successful, but also the most generous and smartest person I know who lives on the big island. And he says to me, which is worth repeating here, I look for every opportunity to surrender.

• 1:16:02Speaker 01

  And it is that surrender to people who you can trust to guide you, right? So you don't have to be the quarterback of everything, right? And that takes off the pressure. And I think finding, it's not always about adding, it's, it's actually creating space for us to just be in that flow, right? Like it's to be in like, and I know you've talked about this a lot, that kind of active rest place where it's not about being super focused and it's not about just going to sleep. But almost the best parts of our day is when we're in that flow state where things just click. And to me, helping people with those, you know, types of times and. Figuring that out is the most valuable and I don't think people talk about that enough. So I appreciate that you do a lot.

• 1:16:40Andrew D. Huberman?

  Yeah, well, and I appreciate that you're bringing up this notion that, you know, just stacking more and more behaviors like you got to crush a workout and do sauna. And that is not the message, you know, sometimes we get teased and there's some good comedy takes on me that make me chuckle now and again.

• 1:16:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:16:58Andrew D. Huberman?

  About that, but that's not the approach. These are tools that people can, it's a buffet. And I think most everyone agrees that sleep is key. Most everyone agrees that exercise is key, nutrition is key, great social connection is key. When it comes to, because I want to make sure that we circle back to this, when it comes to the peptides, it seems that one of your approaches, if I may, is to kind of raise the tide so that the, you know, the boat can, you know, get out, can get out to sea. And we were talking about these growth hormones, secretagogues. We covered GHRP6, which is the one that stimulates appetite. It's probably going to be a niche case condition that people would want to use that.

• 1:17:41Andrew D. Huberman?

  Ipamorelin, Testomere, and Cimorilin. I get a lot of questions about, is it MK677?

• 1:17:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:17:47Andrew D. Huberman?

  What in the world is MK677? It sounds like a weapon.

• 1:17:50Speaker 01

  It does. It's, yeah, it's, I think it's just like GHRP6, however, it's absorbed well orally. So it's basically the same. I see it working this very similarly.

• 1:18:01Andrew D. Huberman?

  To GHRP6, so stimulates appetite?

• 1:18:04Speaker 01

  It does.

• 1:18:05Andrew D. Huberman?

  Can stimulate cortisol prolactin. It sounds like a not good situation for most people.

• 1:18:09Speaker 01

  Not for most people, although, you know, let me give you an example where it is. I have a client, very successful guy, and he's been on testosterone. He's doing all the things, right? He's in his early 60s. He's, he's working out well. He's, he eats well, super well, all these things. He can't put on muscle mass well, right? And actually, as people get older, that does become an issue for a lot of people is maintaining healthy muscle mass. MK677, before it was taken off the compound list by the FDA, it's another one that was included.

• 1:18:40Andrew D. Huberman?

  Oh, another acronym, take it out by the FDA acronym.

• 1:18:43Speaker 01

  There you go. Okay. But you can take it orally, which again removes the stigma or burden of having to do a shot, and you will increase your appetite. And that actually is a very useful agent metabolically for people as they get older. And I know this, my kind of approach with this, both personally and professionally, I try everything I can. And I remember MK677 I took at bedtime, and it was an hour later, I was in a dead sleep, and I woke up and I had to go eat.

• 1:19:12Andrew D. Huberman?

  This sounds like puberty.

• 1:19:13Speaker 01

  It was. I was like, what is going on? Because I didn't totally understand. I was like, what? Oh, I took that capo, oh my gosh, I should never have taken it right before bed. And I had to go up and eat and destroyed my sleep that night. But I learned, and I'll always learn, and I'm grateful for it, but don't take that one at bedtime. But it absolutely will stimulate your appetite.

• 1:19:32Andrew D. Huberman?

  Which are the growth hormone secretagogues that your more typical patients who don't want to stimulate appetite, both male and female patients prefer? What are you compounding for them?

• 1:19:45Speaker 01

  Testemrol, and I don't see any appetite stimulation from that. Hexarelin, we haven't talked about that. I don't really see.

• 1:19:51Andrew D. Huberman?

  Let's talk about Hexarelin.

• 1:19:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, Hexarelin.

• 1:19:53Andrew D. Huberman?

  Hexarelin.

• 1:19:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, sure. Hexarelin, I think of as more, again, we talk about the flavor of these peptides, how I kind of look at it in my head, is more of the energy endurance growth hormone-releasing peptides. I like it for people to use it in the morning. They get a nice burst of energy. They feel it's a clean energy. It's not a caffeinated energy or jittery or anything like that. And it's good for more endurance-type athletics or working out. So people in that field of competition or whatever, I think Hexarelin is a great choice.

• 1:20:22Andrew D. Huberman?

  Does not spike appetite?

• 1:20:23Speaker 01

  I have not seen that.

• 1:20:24Andrew D. Huberman?

  So this is taken first thing in the morning? You get an additional growth hormone release?

• 1:20:28Speaker 01

  Yes, you do. Yeah, you do in the early mornings when you're waking up.

• 1:20:32Andrew D. Huberman?

  And you used to compound it with CJC1295 to get the other pathways involved that can help. But now, CJC has been taken out by the FDA.

• 1:20:40Speaker 01

  Correct. Right, but Hexarelin still exists. That can be compounded.

• 1:20:44Andrew D. Huberman?

  What's the dosage on Hexarelin that you typically prescribe?

• 1:20:46Speaker 01

  100 micrograms. It's the same as these other like ipramorin, GHRP6, 100 micrograms. The two that are different would be tesmiron. Ideal dose is 2mg per dose, which is 200mg, so quite different. And then semiron has a actually very broad dosing range, anywhere from 200mg. I've used it up to 3000mg, depending on, you know, your goals.

• 1:21:09Andrew D. Huberman?

  We were talking about quinzymQ10 and the Krebs cycle.

• 1:21:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:21:15Andrew D. Huberman?

  And I forgot to close the hatch on supplements more broadly.

• 1:21:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:21:21Andrew D. Huberman?

  Again, doesn't sound like you're a big fan of taking lots of pills and capsules. I think some people will take that as a relief. I think a lot of people get tired of taking a lot of pills. Some people don't like to do that. What are some of the other things that you do take besides quinzymQ10? Earlier, we're talking about methylated vitamins.

• 1:21:41Speaker 01

  Methylated B vitamins.

• 1:21:42Andrew D. Huberman?

  Yeah, this is becoming increasingly popular. We're starting to hear more about

• 1:21:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:21:46Andrew D. Huberman?

  methylation and methylated compounds. Could you educate us on methylated B vitamins?

• 1:21:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I think people are familiar with it. You know, some people are talking on podcasts about the MTHFR, SNP.

• 1:21:58Andrew D. Huberman?

  We've not talked about that on this podcast, so it'd be nice to.

• 1:22:00Speaker 01

  Sure, so SNP is a single nucleotide polymorphism, meaning that genetically, things don't flow as easily. Again, that's an oversimplification. And, you know, you could be homozygous for that, meaning you have both genes, making you, you know, influencing you more. You could be heterozygous, meaning it's just one gene.

• 1:22:20Andrew D. Huberman?

  One copy from one parent.

• 1:22:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:22:21Andrew D. Huberman?

  Or homozygous copy from each parent.

• 1:22:24Speaker 01

  You say it way better than I do. And so what that means is where we see that reflected, homocysteine is a marker we use, a lab marker we use. It's an emerging marker for looking at one's cardiovascular risk profile. And so if one's got an elevated homocysteine, and elevated by some labs can be greater than seven, by most labs, greater than nine, means you're at an increased risk of what that is, I don't remember. But you're an increased risk of having a cardiovascular event, which would mean a heart attack or stroke. And so we want to lower that number. And the best way to lower that number is taking ample methylated B vitamins. Methylated means you're adding a methyl group. So methyl B12, methylfolate, trimethylglycine, methionine.

• 1:23:09Speaker 01

  These are all methylation donors, which just metabolically and through your detoxification pathways in your liver.

• 1:23:15Andrew D. Huberman?

  Is going to help you lower that homocysteine.

• 1:23:20Andrew D. Huberman?

  I'm sure it's more complicated than that, but that's most people, if you're going to take a B vitamin, take a methylated B vitamin because then you overcome even you, again, I don't, we've done a lot of MTHFR testing. I don't think it's as profound as some people make it out to be like it's going to change their life. I've never seen that. Can it help you? Sure, but you're going to overcome it by taking sufficient methylated B vitamins anyway. And again, those methylated B vitamins are methylated B12. B12, folate, there's a methylated B6, there's, and then trimethylglycine, TMG is a good compound, methionine is a good methyl donor, it's amino acid. Are these taken in the morning or in the afternoon? I like taking them in the morning, although I think, you know, for people to play around with,

• 1:24:02Andrew D. Huberman?

  because I've certainly seen it, you know, people get that 3pm kind of slumber as opposed to reaching for the coffee or the donut. Take some more methylated B vitamins and see what happens. Or just the coffee. No, sorry, you're not supposed to drink caffeine too late in the day. Lately, what I've, I don't know, this is wrong to bring up on this podcast, but I can't help myself.

• 1:24:21Andrew D. Huberman?

  I love yerba mate in the morning and afternoon. Okay. Coffee in the morning now makes me feel nauseous. I don't know if I'm pregnant or something, but it makes me feel nauseous. But I love the taste of coffee in the afternoon. This is like a midlife thing. I don't know what it is. So I, now in the afternoon, like around 1 or 2pm, even just the smallest amount of coffee is like, it's like the most delicious thing I've ever tasted. Yeah, I love coffee.

• 1:24:45Andrew D. Huberman?

  It can mess with your sleep too late in the day, but that's a perfect segue to talk about sleep. Sure. Because one thing that I know you've done a lot of work on and with are these peptides that can improve sleep, not just by virtue of enhancing growth hormone release, but you know, I'll just be very direct. I, for the last, gosh, like four to six months, I've had the opportunity to try pinealine. And injectable pinealine combined with glycine. Yes. Goodness gracious, in the positive sense of the goodness gracious, you're from the South, so I don't know where, where people, how the.

• 1:25:27Andrew D. Huberman?

  Never before have I found something that can improve the amount of rapid eye movement sleep that I get.

• 1:25:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:25:33Andrew D. Huberman?

  Besides rapid eye movement sleep deprivation. You know, sleep deprivation, the next night you'll get a compensatory effect. That's not the way to increase your REM sleep, folks. You know, there are a lot of things like high intensity exercise that improve my slow wave deep sleep. Cold plunge early in the day improves slow wave deep sleep. There have been a few other things. But with pinealin, I'm, and by the way, I'm not doing this every night. I do this occasionally. I ran a little experiment and I track my sleep using the sleep tracker that's in Eight Sleep. And it's doubling the amount of rapid eye movement sleep that I'm getting.

• 1:26:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:26:05Andrew D. Huberman?

  Doubling.

• 1:26:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:26:06Andrew D. Huberman?

  Which is, so like from an hour to two hours or from an hour and 30, it's like near, near, nearly three hours, you know? Even, I posted a picture of a sleep score with some rapid eye movement sleep. It's not something I typically do.

• 1:26:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:26:19Andrew D. Huberman?

  But even the, the, the most competitive of biohackers, Brian Johnson was like, oh, nice sleep score, you know?

• 1:26:27Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:26:28Andrew D. Huberman?

  Now, he touts a sleep score that's perfect every night for, you know, for, for every night, but, and I'm kind of poking at Brian because we like to poke back and forth. We're friendly with one another. So the point being that pinealin is a remarkable way to increase rapid eye movement sleep. I have very little knowledge about it, except that I, my understanding is that it might stimulate some regeneration or stimulation of the pineal sites of the pineal.

• 1:26:54Speaker 01

  That's exactly it.

• 1:26:55Andrew D. Huberman?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:26:56Speaker 01

  You've nailed it. Yeah, I remember when you messaged me after starting it and you were like, this is amazing.

• 1:27:02Andrew D. Huberman?

  It's amazing.

• 1:27:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, you were saying it's amazing.

• 1:27:04Andrew D. Huberman?

  I hope the FDA doesn't nuke it as a consequence of this conversation.

• 1:27:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. I hope so too. No, but I mean, your response is what we see with our other patients who are, who are loving, and I think that combination with glycine, I'm a big fan of glycine and injecting it seems to work really well. But back to your question about pinealon, yeah, I mean, it's a bit, one of the smallest peptides, but I think it's one of the most profound. We used to combine it with epitalin, the Russian peptide that was used for circadian rhythm.

• 1:27:29Andrew D. Huberman?

  And for, my understanding, epitalin also is involved in DNA repair and might, has been explored in animal studies for.

• 1:27:39Andrew D. Huberman?

  Trying to offset vision loss and some retinal degenerative conditions.

• 1:27:43Speaker 01

  Yeah. Again, put on the do not compound list with all the others.

• 1:27:47Andrew D. Huberman?

  That's a shame.

• 1:27:47Speaker 01

  That's gone.

• 1:27:48Andrew D. Huberman?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:49Speaker 01

  But Penalon stays and remains. And yeah, your response to it and experience with it has been very commonplace from working with patients and seeing that. I think there's a circadian rhythm aspect with it as well, you know, and helping with melatonin production. Obviously, that comes from the pineal gland. I, this is just I'm postulating, I think there's more to the pineal gland than we understand.

• 1:28:13Andrew D. Huberman?

  Oh, yeah. It makes things other than melatonin, that's for sure.

• 1:28:16Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I think it's kind of elusive, but I think there's something to it. And I say that having used a lot of Penalon with people over the years and having very similar responses, which is awesome. Like, everyone knows, like you said, when you sleep better, your entire day is better. When you sleep better, your life is better, like exponentially better.

• 1:28:35Andrew D. Huberman?

  I think of the millions of people that suffer from lack of rapid eye movement sleep, the lack of neuroplasticity that can be the consequence of that, the lack of healthy removal of emotional labels on previous day memories, that is the consequence of REM deprivation, the enormous impact on depression rates, the enormous impact on pretty much every mental health issue is made worse by by lack of REM sleep. So I say, or I raise this conversation about Penalon with a little bit of trepidation because I do worry that on the one hand, people will see it as a miracle drug. That's not what we're talking about. It has this effect. But at the same time, I, okay, I'll just say that, you know,

• 1:29:20Andrew D. Huberman?

  there's another drug that was released recently.

• 1:29:24Andrew D. Huberman?

  This is an FDA approved drug in the category of sleep drugs called the DORAs. So it works a little differently, doesn't push on the sleepiness system, so to speak. It suppresses the wakefulness system. And the idea is that it's supposed to increase REM sleep. It was by name, Quivivac and things like that. I tried it. It was a total disaster for me.

• 1:29:45Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 1:29:45Andrew D. Huberman?

  I fell asleep, woke up three hours later, couldn't fall back asleep. I tried it. It's a lower dosage. It's extremely expensive as well. So I'm going to piss off whoever makes Quivivac. I forget who makes it. It was a complete disaster for me.

• 1:29:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:29:59Andrew D. Huberman?

  Penalon has been incredible. And here's what's really interesting about it to me is that. It seems to improve my sleep on the nights when I don't take it, which makes total sense if it indeed is providing some regeneration of the pineal sites that make melatonin and

• 1:30:15Speaker 01

  That makes sense to me.

• 1:30:16Andrew D. Huberman?

  Yeah, so here we're talking about something that one could potentially pulse with now and again and get improvement in sleep every night.

• 1:30:23Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:30:23Andrew D. Huberman?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:24Speaker 01

  Wild. Yeah, and it's, I mean, I think it's worth noting that you also take care of your health on many other aspects and that's probably why you were sensitive to it, but it worked really well for you, right? And some other people, it's going to take longer, you know, if they're, you know, having to work on their diet and having to work on their exercise and having to work on their thought patterns. We don't talk about that enough, having positive thoughts.

• 1:30:46Speaker 01

  But yeah, it's been, it's so safe. We've never, ever seen, I mean, I never, ever have seen a side effect or negative side effect from pinealine. It's, and, and your response has been uniform, you know? People don't always get there as quickly, but people get there with their sleep.

• 1:31:02Andrew D. Huberman?

  Well, but, and you compound it with glycine?

• 1:31:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:31:05Andrew D. Huberman?

  What's the rationale there?

• 1:31:06Speaker 01

  I really like glycine as an inhibitory neurotransmitter. It's calming to the nervous system over the years. I tend to start with that when people are having trouble settling down at night. Not that it's going to sedate people, but just transitioning from, you know, being active, you know, 8pm, 9pm, wanting to settle down, glycine in pretty large dosages, at least most people think they're starting with 3,000 or 5,000 milligrams orally.

• 1:31:33Speaker 01

  Kind of tones down the nervous system. People relax a little bit and then they tend to sleep better from it. And then you can dial it up. I mean, I've used very large dosages where the other advantage of glycine is it works on phase two liver detoxification, which is amino acid conjugation. So you're helping your liver work better. And in a world where we're being exposed with all these toxic things from glyphosate to heavy metals, we all need to do some sort of, you know, liver mitigation strategies. Glycine is one of the best.

• 1:32:03Andrew D. Huberman?

  Interesting. We haven't done an episode of this podcast yet on heavy metals, but we're, I'm very interested in this because many people write to me asking about metal toxicity and about mold toxicity.

• 1:32:16Speaker 01

  Molds become super big. Yeah, big, big. Yeah, I mean, it's very prevalent and it seems the more we talk about it, I mean, we've seen it for years and years and years. It makes sense, right? Like, if you think about the amount of airplanes flying above us every day, pouring down heavy metals. I mean, it's massive. It's in the air, it's in the water, it's in the soil. You talk about glyphosate or Roundup, same exact thing. So many chemicals and it's challenging for us as humans. The way I break it down, not to get too far off topic, is, you know, we're water soluble organisms living in a fat soluble world. It's the job of our liver, essentially, to take the fat soluble stuff, make it water soluble so we can excrete it, right? And that takes place in the liver in two phases. Phase one, we're using the P450 enzymes, like taking the trash, putting the trash in the trash can, putting it out on the side of the road. And you have phase

• 1:33:01Speaker 01

  two amino acid conjugation, the trash truck comes and picks up the trash. Very few things in nature induce phase two, independent of phase one, meaning most of us have trash piled up on the side of our road. Those things are the polyphenols, right? And so things like the blues, the reds, the pigments. That's why it's important to eat a wide variety of colors in your diet. Matcha tea, you know, has a very strong inducing effect on phase two liver activity.

• 1:33:26Andrew D. Huberman?

  Is that right?

• 1:33:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:33:27Andrew D. Huberman?

  I need to develop a taste for matcha.

• 1:33:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:33:29Andrew D. Huberman?

  I feel like it's kind of grainy.

• 1:33:30Speaker 01

  It is, and it's bitter.

• 1:33:32Andrew D. Huberman?

  Yeah.

• 1:33:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, but bitter things tend to be, you know, again, helping that phase two. Glutathione helps phase two. We do a lot of that intravenously. And then glycine is a wonderful agent for inducing phase two, independent of phase one. And the trouble is, I don't think people realize, you know, people are told, well, you know, most pharmaceuticals induce a P450 enzyme. And a misconception is, well, if I'm just inducing one, I'm good. If you induce one, you induce them all. So if you take any pharmaceutical, you're inducing your entire P450 system. You're speeding it up, meaning you're putting more trash out on the side of the road. And if you look at the amount of things we're being exposed to outside of pharmaceuticals, it's mounting.

• 1:34:10Andrew D. Huberman?

  When you say on the side of the road, you mean in the liver?

• 1:34:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's what I'm saying. I'm just using that as a metaphor.

• 1:34:16Andrew D. Huberman?

  Yeah, right.

• 1:34:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:34:17Andrew D. Huberman?

  You're not about excreting it in the, you're talking about building up of debris, cellular debris with it, or excuse me, metabolic debris within your body.

• 1:34:26Speaker 01

  Right, the trash, again, very oversimplification. You need to speed up phase two to get the trash trucks come to pick up the trash so that you can then take that compound and excrete it in your stool, in your urine, your sweat, your breath. Right, I mean, that's the only way it works. It's not complicated per se, but I think there's a lot of misconceptions about it.

• 1:34:44Andrew D. Huberman?

  So when people take a peptide that's injectable, pinealine glycine, they're getting glycine, obviously, but for, let's say if somebody doesn't have access to you or to, for whatever reason, there's a barrier to getting a hold of those peptides. Can people take glycine orally?

• 1:35:01Speaker 01

  They can. Yeah, glycine's absorbed well orally. It has a really sweet taste. It's actually the smallest amino acid. Huge fan of it. We've been using it a long time. You can take big dosages of it.

• 1:35:11Andrew D. Huberman?

  Such as?

• 1:35:12Speaker 01

  Again, my starting dose is usually three to five grams at bedtime.

• 1:35:16Andrew D. Huberman?

  Wow.

• 1:35:16Speaker 01

  And then I tell, what my, the way I do this, recommend it is try that for a few nights in a row. Not noticing a thing, double the dose, go to 10 grams, literally. Most people at 10 grams of glycine will notice it. And again, it's not going to necessarily make you drowsy. You're not going to be sedated, but your nervous system's going to be toned down a little bit. It's going to help you fall asleep a little bit better. And then while you sleep, where a lot of this detoxification process starts working, you're going to be more efficient in how your liver works. And everything ties together.

• 1:35:43Andrew D. Huberman?

  Right. So I'm still, still a big fan of things like magnesium 3 and 8, apigenin, which is a chemomile derivative. And I'll try glycine. I think a few years back, I was, I was using a little bit of glycine, but it was more like 1,000 milligrams. But now that it's in the injectable peptide.

• 1:35:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:36:00Andrew D. Huberman?

  Pinealine, I, I don't take it. Is there an oral form of pinealine that works?

• 1:36:06Speaker 01

  There's these bioregulator peptides, which were developed by this Russian scientist, last name Corvinsen, I think. Done a lot of research, actually. There's published research about it. I think pinealine is one of the ones that they say will survive the stomach acid and get through the gut and be absorbed. So I think that's true. We've always used it as injectable. And I tend to like injectable things for the bioavailability. So, yeah, but to your point, I think people can. Those are going to be harder and harder to find, actually. It's probably easier to find an injectable pinealine than an oral one.

• 1:36:42Andrew D. Huberman?

  Yeah, and as we're talking about this, I'm realizing, unfortunately, just the way the internet works, that people are going to start selling, likely as a consequence of this conversation, will start selling pinealine. But you need to know that you're actually getting pinealine. I mean, it's very easy for somebody to just pop something up on Amazon and sell it. And maybe they just throw some melatonin in there and call it pinealine. Like, there's a lot of, like, the stuff out there. So this is why the compounding pharmacy component and working with a physician is so key.

• 1:37:12Speaker 01

  And researching, right? Making sure that what you're taking is legit. Lot of illegitimacy out there.

• 1:37:19Andrew D. Huberman?

  Do you think the pharmaceutical companies are going to move into these other peptides? I mean, certainly ipamorelin for the reduction in visceral body fat. That's an FDA-approved drug. So is seromorelin, FDA-approved drug. The GLP-1 agonist, FDA-approved drug. So the FDA is unlikely to pull those. But their blockbuster is especially GLP-1. I mean, they're making not even a small fortune, but a large fortune.

• 1:37:48Speaker 01

  Big money. The concerning part about the GLP-1s is, to me, is what we're starting to see. They've been able to be compounded because there was a shortage. And the way it works with compounding pharmacies, because those are brand-name drugs and they're not patented for the peptide, right? They're patented for the delivery system, which is the pen, which most people don't realize. And they've been able to be compounded and then way more affordable because they're compounded. And there is rumors that the pharmaceutical companies now have supply back. They'll come back and they will, you know, remove the ability to allow these peptides to be compounded, which means we'll have to stick to traditional dosages. And people will lose access because they're going to be way more expensive.

• 1:38:32Speaker 01

  I mean, they are. If insurance doesn't cover it... Fifteen hundred a month for most people. Very expensive.

• 1:38:39Andrew D. Huberman?

  That's a lot.

• 1:38:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:38:41Andrew D. Huberman?

  For a lot of people, that's rent and more.

• 1:38:43Speaker 01

  So.

• 1:38:43Andrew D. Huberman?

  Yeah.

• 1:38:44Speaker 01

  I'm hopeful that doesn't happen. But that's, that's in the works. That's in the works and that would be a huge shame. And again, I'm not a pessimist by any means. I'm a perpetual optimist, so we'll just, we'll just make sure it stays this way. But, you know, again, if it does happen, we'll get creative and go other routes as well.

• 1:39:03Andrew D. Huberman?

  Earlier, you mentioned stem cell therapies.

• 1:39:05Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:39:05Andrew D. Huberman?

  Those are not FDA approved in this country.

• 1:39:08Speaker 01

  They are actually. They, you can, you can.

• 1:39:09Andrew D. Huberman?

  Sorry, my mistake.

• 1:39:10Speaker 01

  Yeah. So I think that using the term stem cell is a problem, right? If we use the term autologous cell, right? Which would be PRP. It's basically the same thing.

• 1:39:22Andrew D. Huberman?

  Plasma.

• 1:39:23Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:39:23Andrew D. Huberman?

  They take your blood, they spin it down, they take the.

• 1:39:25Speaker 01

  Right. And so the ruling is, I understand it. As long as you're taking a cell that from you and you give it back within four hours, then that is allowed with, under the FDA guidelines.

• 1:39:38Andrew D. Huberman?

  Interesting. There was this clinic in Florida a few years ago was touting stem cell therapies for macular degeneration, injected some stem cells into these patients' eyes and they went blind really quickly and they were not blind prior to the injections. That, to my understanding, caused a severe setback to the whole.

• 1:39:59Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:40:00Andrew D. Huberman?

  Field. I'm old enough to remember when gene therapy was setback by about 10 years because a patient received gene therapy, which is now pretty common for certain diseases. And the patient died. It's unclear exactly why they died, but that delayed the field of gene therapy by at least a decade. I mean, this country is very conservative when it comes to the approval of new therapeutics.

• 1:40:28Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:40:28Andrew D. Huberman?

  Yeah.

• 1:40:29Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:40:29Andrew D. Huberman?

  Yeah.

• 1:40:29Speaker 01

  No, and I think like anything, there's gonna be people who get too aggressive. I mean, I've heard of doctors injecting stem cells into people's discs. And then they get dyskitis and infection and that can just spiral very quickly. I think it's you gotta be reasonable in, you know, what you're trying to accomplish. I I'm excited about stem cells and exosome therapy and PRP and PRF and using them as, you know, kind of biologics and because I think there's a lot to learn. I think we only know very little from what we've seen from working with our patients. It's been tremendous from a rejuvenation standpoint. I mean, we're as long as, you know, I think it's taking from your own, you know, and then giving back your own within how the FDA outlines it. I think that's a great way to do it.

• 1:41:13Andrew D. Huberman?

  Well, certainly you have the clinical, uh, clinical data to back those statements. Uh, thymus in Alpha one. What is this peptide? But maybe before we discuss it, did the FDA nuke thymus in Alpha one?

• 1:41:24Speaker 01

  They sure did.

• 1:41:25Andrew D. Huberman?

  Whoa, okay, they're coming through with a, with a howitzer and taking out all these peptides.

• 1:41:30Speaker 01

  They are.

• 1:41:30Andrew D. Huberman?

  Okay, um, well then let's keep this relatively brief. What, what was thymus in Alpha one being used for previously?

• 1:41:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think it was, uh, from my observation, the best peptide for immune modulation. So we would use it if you had an overactive immune system like autoimmune disease by definition. If someone has an autoimmune disease, their immune, their immune system is attacking their own self. Right? That's classically lupus, rheumatoid arthritis, things like that, celiac disease, type one diabetes, those are all, you know, autoimmune diseases. We could use thymus in Alpha one and we toned down the immune response. We'd also use it a lot in post COVID where you have an abnormal immune response or the immune system hasn't caught back up and you can kind of dial it up using thymus in Alpha one in a very safe way. We used it a lot with long COVID. And we were using 5,000 micrograms a day, sometimes intravenously getting great results,

• 1:42:22Speaker 01

  very safe, had no issues with it. But unfortunately it's off the table.

• 1:42:28Andrew D. Huberman?

  I hear a lot of complaints about, um, brain fog, um, with long COVID. And brain fog generally, um, cerebrolysin is a very interesting compound.

• 1:42:42Andrew D. Huberman?

  My understanding is that Cerebral Lysin is available in Europe more broadly than it is in the US. Is it?

• 1:42:48Speaker 01

  It's available here.

• 1:42:48Andrew D. Huberman?

  Did the FDA, is it taken out?

• 1:42:50Speaker 01

  No, it's still available.

• 1:42:50Andrew D. Huberman?

  Okay, all right. Cerebral Lysin made the cut.

• 1:42:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, it made the cut.

• 1:42:53Andrew D. Huberman?

  We'll see what happens after this podcast.

• 1:42:55Speaker 01

  That's right. We've used a lot of Cerebral Lysin. We actually have a clinic that's open in London. We actually did use it. We've used it a lot more over there than over here.

• 1:43:04Andrew D. Huberman?

  So you have a US clinic and a, and a UK clinic?

• 1:43:06Speaker 01

  We have a one in, based in London and one in Charleston, yeah. And I think, you know, Cerebral Lysin's been used for decades in the setting of, you know, post-stroke, post-traumatic brain injury. The trouble with it, again, I've observed with people, they get Cerebral Lysin, we're talking about IV, you can also use it subQ, is they will have a day or two where they feel really down and out. Like it's, like their mood shifts to like this dark place.

• 1:43:35Andrew D. Huberman?

  Scary.

• 1:43:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, and they come out of it, but most people don't like that feeling. And so we just, we stopped using it mostly.

• 1:43:42Andrew D. Huberman?

  Yeah.

• 1:43:44Speaker 01

  For that reason.

• 1:43:45Andrew D. Huberman?

  My understanding is that Cerebral Lysin is a kind of a cocktail of brain-derived neurotrophic factor, axillary neurotrophic factor, like some other things. It's not one thing.

• 1:43:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I think, right, I think, I think collectively it increases BDNF levels, right? Like there was Dihexa too, you know, if you're familiar with Dihexa, that's another one that was removed by the FDA. Supposedly the most potent way to increase, you know, brain-derived neurotrophic factor, kind of the juice the neurons live in, again, oversimplification. That's gone, but I think Cerebral Lysin did the same thing.

• 1:44:15Andrew D. Huberman?

  Interesting. So as long as we're talking about maintaining or boosting cognitive function.

• 1:44:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:44:22Andrew D. Huberman?

  Here's one I've never tried.

• 1:44:23Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:44:24Andrew D. Huberman?

  But you and I have talked a little bit about, and it's still seen as kind of renegade, but it's becoming more commonplace, and that's Methylene Blue.

• 1:44:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:44:33Andrew D. Huberman?

  And I always make the joke that I used to use Methylene Blue to clean my fish tanks.

• 1:44:37Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:44:38Andrew D. Huberman?

  Cause I was a, I'm a big fish tank aficionado, at least I was when I was a kid. Right now I don't, might have a tank, but it's, it's, it's empty. No pun intended. What is methylene blue?

• 1:44:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:44:52Andrew D. Huberman?

  And what are people using it for?

• 1:44:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:44:55Andrew D. Huberman?

  And does it turn your tongue blue?

• 1:44:57Speaker 01

  It does, for sure.

• 1:44:58Andrew D. Huberman?

  Not permanently?

• 1:44:59Speaker 01

  Not permanently. It's actually the first pharmaceutical ever prescribed in this country in the late 1800s was methylene blue.

• 1:45:06Andrew D. Huberman?

  Goodness. Here, so it sounds like really renegade, but it's

• 1:45:08Speaker 01

  It's not.

• 1:45:09Andrew D. Huberman?

  You got it?

• 1:45:09Speaker 01

  Yep. But it's gained favor in the last five years. That's certainly when we learned about it, particularly, you know, I learned about it through this doctor who was telling me with COVID patients, he was getting immediate, like within a day of stopping of COVID symptoms from using methylene blue. That's what like piqued my interest, like, wow, that's incredible. And then he went on to say that then COVID tests were turning negative within a matter of like two days, which was unheard of.

• 1:45:35Andrew D. Huberman?

  I've seen that with something else, but I'll get back to that.

• 1:45:38Speaker 01

  Yeah. And so that's when I was like, oh, this is, you know, and it started to be talked about and learned about it. So methylene blue, when we talk about the mitochondria, using that mitochondrial membrane binds the cytochrome C oxidase. And I think of it, you know, traditionally it's used when people have carbon monoxide poisoning. They'll still use it. You go in the emergency room, you have carbon monoxide poisoning, it'll give you methylene blue. And it helps your red blood cells displace the carbon monoxide and put oxygen there. And so you're, it's an oxygenator. That's how I think of it.

• 1:46:03Andrew D. Huberman?

  Is it used as a performance enhancing drug in endurance sports? Because this sounds like the kind of thing that cyclists would, would really want to use. Check with your local governing body. There's always a question I get. People like, they hear something on the podcast and they go, can I take it or am I going to get disqualified? And I always say, I have no idea if you'll get disqualified.

• 1:46:22Speaker 01

  I don't believe it's on the water list.

• 1:46:23Andrew D. Huberman?

  Okay.

• 1:46:24Speaker 01

  I don't believe we

• 1:46:25Andrew D. Huberman?

  Well, just look for the people with the blue tongues.

• 1:46:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:46:27Andrew D. Huberman?

  Yeah, easy test.

• 1:46:28Speaker 01

  So methylene blue very well absorbed, very well orally. You know, I think of it like NAD, the molecule NAD, because it works on that, you know, on those cytochromes. Different than NAD though, because NAD is not, if you're taking NAD by itself, not absorbed orally well at all. It's one of the trouble with it. Methylene blue is, and actually you can take way bigger dosages orally than intravenously. We've given it intravenously a lot, but we're limited in using it intravenously just because it'll start to cause some spasm of the vein. The arm starts hurting if you're giving too much methylene blue, either too much or too quickly. And so we can give it orally, you can get a capsule of it. That's how we are. What dosage is? So I think a good dose is no more than 10 milligrams. 10 milligrams? Yeah. Taken when?

• 1:47:13Speaker 01

  In the morning. It is, you know, it's a cognitive stimulant for sure. I mean, I've had more people over the last five years because we make methylene blue. We combine it with some other agents, a little bit of caffeine, some B vitamins. And people say this is the best thing for, you know, my brain function, recall, memory. Kind of quote unquote nootropic, a term I don't really like because. Yeah. You know, there aren't circuits for being smart. There are circuits for. Yep. Task switching. I get it. But yeah. I get it. So it's 10 milligrams of methylene blue combined, and you've got some other things in the cocktail version that you make. Taken in the morning on an empty stomach? Yeah, you could take it with food though. Again, it's going to be well absorbed. It will, interesting to people, and I need to say, it will turn your urine green or blue. For how long? About 24 hours, depending. And. That could be kind of fun.

• 1:47:55Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, and a good caveat is if it doesn't, and I've had patients, then that's interesting to me as a clinician because it means that your mitochondria is not working well, right? The way I see this is you should get spillover. You shouldn't kind of use it all. And if you're not, there's something wrong there that you're using all of it and you're getting no spillover back into your bloodstream, which gets filtered into your bladder or your urine, which you urinate out. And that's happened with a couple of patients. So it's like, oh, wow. You had no green or blue urine. There's a problem with your mitochondria. So it's putting more oxygen on to the blood cells? Correct. Like your hemoglobin is able to pick up more oxygen. That's exactly right. But then there's the, you know, a mild MAOI inhibitor, which is.

• 1:48:40Speaker 01

  Monoheme oxidase inhibitor. Yeah, which can allow things like serotonin to work a little bit longer in that synaptic cleft. You know, and you've expounded way better than I can about serotonin and dopamine and how those work. But there is a cognitive enhancement from it for sure. It's very real. And we have a lot of people using it and love it. It also seems to be an antiviral. You know, you get this, again, that's probably through the mitochondria, making your mitochondria more efficient. It's a prescription drug. It's a prescription drug, but there's, there's now, and I don't totally understand it. There's now strictly over the counter nutraceutical supplement options that are methylene blue. For sure. Anyone can go online and buy it.

• 1:49:23Andrew D. Huberman?

  For sure.

• 1:49:24Speaker 01

  Trust me, now, now that there are gonna be a few.

• 1:49:26Andrew D. Huberman?

  And, and you talked about turning your mouth blue. If you take a liquid form, right, and we'll do that sometimes in the office when we're doing other treatments, we'll give a big dose of methylene blue to kind of help fuel, kind of quickly make a lot of ATP, which we want to do with some different IV treatments we do. So we'll give sometimes up to 50, five zero milligrams at a time. Their gums, teeth, lips are blue for about an hour or two. And how often can people take methylene blue?

• 1:49:57Speaker 01

  Again, I, you, you could take it every day. I think it, I think it's a little bit longer acting. I don't, I don't take it every day. I take it about three times a week. I think that's about right. I do have people who need it more, you know, for whatever they're dealing with. I do think, you know, as a nutrient, if we're gonna call it that, it's, it's a lot of, it's an insurance policy for your mitochondria.

• 1:50:20Andrew D. Huberman?

  So earlier you mentioned a patient, or maybe it was patients, plural, that experienced a more rapid transition out of a COVID infection, or maybe more recovery from long COVID symptoms, et cetera. It reminded me of the second time I got COVID, far less intense than the first time. But the second time I got COVID, I had an amazing experience where my COVID test was very strong band. It was very clear, like I, I had COVID. There was no question about it. I didn't feel good. I was fatigued, wasn't super severe. I would put it more, kind of on a six, six out of 10.

• 1:51:03Andrew D. Huberman?

  On the kind of malaise level. No fever. Okay, so I stayed in, stayed in bed and, you know, stayed away from people, this sort of thing.

• 1:51:13Andrew D. Huberman?

  But I did an NAD infusion. Of course, told them I had COVID. They came over, they gave me an NAD infusion.

• 1:51:20Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:51:22Andrew D. Huberman?

  Correlation is not causation, but I think it was 750 mg NAD infusion over the course of about 45 minutes. I had the usual feelings that one gets when you get an NAD infusion of you feel like an elephant is stepping on your legs. Your chest got a cramp, so you feel, and then when that stops, you feel much better than you go into the thing.

• 1:51:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:51:45Andrew D. Huberman?

  The band was absent the next day. My symptoms were, I went from, I don't want to say gone, I went from, you know, like a five, six out of 10, as I mentioned, to like a two out of 10.

• 1:51:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:51:58Andrew D. Huberman?

  And within another 48 hours, I was good, good to go and better. Now, this is correlation, not causation. I don't know what was going on. It could have been the saline bag, right? Could have been any number of things.

• 1:52:09Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:52:11Andrew D. Huberman?

  But the shift from a dark band to no band

• 1:52:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:52:15Andrew D. Huberman?

  was so dramatic that I took another test.

• 1:52:17Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:52:18Andrew D. Huberman?

  After the no band, and then, of course, the next day and the next day, you know, this kind of thing. It's interesting. I don't know what it means, but one wonders whether or not it's just a global way of combating inflammation. You know, I just sort of, any time I think about a systemic effect, and the reason I raise this is that I don't want to give the impression that I think that like NAD is specifically in the pathway that was targeted.

• 1:52:44Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:52:45Andrew D. Huberman?

  But that my brain and body were inflamed. Clearly, I had an infection. So you don't, you could have a flu, you could have a cold, you're inflamed. What are your thoughts on that anecdote? Again, it's just anecdote, but what are your clinical reflections?

• 1:52:59Speaker 01

  We've seen it so many times. Yeah. I mean, for the longest time, and so we've been using NAD longer than most. I'm fortunate that I was given the original NAD infusion protocol, which came from Mexico. It's kind of a long story, I don't want to bore you, but that dosage of 750 mg is actually what we came up with in my office, and that's what most people adopted, just because we've used it more than probably anyone else on the planet. Huge fan of NAD, very biased, but that's only because I've seen it work over and over and over in inexplicable scenarios, just like you're describing, where it's not just you go from A to B, but you're going to A to Z very quickly. And

• 1:53:43Speaker 01

  I used to use the word transformational talking about it, not just, okay, going from a sick state to a well state, but in most people going from a well state to a super well state really quickly. And it's super impressive. So there's a lot more to NAD than we understand, right? Because just very empirically giving someone this coenzyme, this vitamin B3 derivative, how is it dramatically changing symptomatically how someone feels? But it does. And I've seen it with thousands upon thousands of people, certainly in the setting of COVID, certainly in other bio infections, you name it. I have been more impressed with the work of NAD than probably any other agent we've ever used.

• 1:54:25Andrew D. Huberman?

  Amazing. Yeah, I take sublingual NMN each day. It makes my hair grow ridiculously fast. I've done the control experiments. I'm a scientist. I know how to do control experiments. It's still just N of one. It's just me. Makes my nails grow really fast. Makes my hair grow fast. That's the major consequence. By the way, I want to be clear, I don't have any stake in any company that sells NAD or NAD infusion. So I'm just reporting what I'm reporting.

• 1:54:49Speaker 01

  I think it's great.

• 1:54:50Andrew D. Huberman?

  Somebody who's quite expert in the NAD pathway, Charles Brenner, who I believe has a relationship to a company that makes NR supplements.

• 1:55:01Speaker 01

  I think that's correct.

• 1:55:02Andrew D. Huberman?

  Encouraged me to try NR. I took these NR supplements. This is what it's NAD minus a phosphate group is my understanding. And those I took orally, I couldn't tell if I got the same or different effect because I was taking them together. I didn't continue to take them because compared to NMN, it was very expensive.

• 1:55:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:55:23Andrew D. Huberman?

  And I just stopped taking it. So that's why I use sublingual NMN. But in brief discussions with Charles and how, you know, forging online, it seems that there is some literature, human clinical literature, showing that NR can reduce inflammation. Is that right?

• 1:55:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, for sure.

• 1:55:44Andrew D. Huberman?

  Less data that NMN can reduce inflammation, at least lack of human studies. Okay. So we're still kind of in the, it's still murky, murky foggy territory with, with respect to the, the research and clinical.

• 1:55:56Speaker 01

  The biochemistry. Yeah, and like, what does the biochemistry do? And the way I think about it, again, because we kind of pioneered the infusions, the NAD drips, which, for me, transformational, just observing lots of people who I never saw the same thing with NMN and AR. You know, you're not having these transformational experiences within a week. You know, I tell the story a lot is, I had a patient, he was diagnosed with a chronic Epstein-Barr virus, which is rare, but it does exist. He was depressed and on disability just because he couldn't almost get out of bed. This is mono? But it was reactivation of Epstein-Barr. Yeah, yeah, and so, very like, fatigued and depressed and literally on disability, couldn't work. And he, I said, before we do anything, the way I operate is I want to get you feeling

• 1:56:41Speaker 01

  better first before we start to tackle some of the bigger things. We did the loading dose of NAD, which we came up with a five treatments in 10 days. Came back to my office, his wife was there, she was crying, she goes, within a week, my husband is back. Wow. And I've seen that so many times with NAD, and I can't explain it, right? And if I just stick to the biochemistry, it doesn't make sense, oh, you're increasing the NAD/NEH ratio, fueling the mitochondria, which are all over your body, thousands per cell. There's something that we just, there's got to be outside the mitochondrial effect of NAD that's not well-understood.

• 1:57:12Andrew D. Huberman?

  So, in the backdrop of our conversation today, there've been a number of themes, but one of the themes that seems to keep coming up is that there are a lot of things about medicine that we don't understand.

• 1:57:23Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 1:57:24Andrew D. Huberman?

  And yet, there are tools that seem to work for certain people extremely well. A few years ago, I went to a meeting, this is a foundation meeting, a foundation I was a part of, where you get to see talks from really the best of the best laboratories, and they only show unpublished data. And at the time, I don't know if this paper's published yet, but at the time, they were showing that they took people that were diagnosed with Major depression.

• 1:57:51Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:57:51Andrew D. Huberman?

  And they start doing a bunch of metabolomics on them.

• 1:57:54Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 1:57:54Andrew D. Huberman?

  Okay, now this sounds pretty standard for social media. It's actually like pretty heretical.

• 1:57:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:57:59Andrew D. Huberman?

  Not a lot of of places have done this right.

• 1:58:02Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:58:03Andrew D. Huberman?

  So, you know, a couple thousand patients, blood draws, they're they're trying to figure out, they ask a simple question, are there any specific vitamin deficiencies that are associated with depression? And as I recall, they identified a few different types of vitamin deficiencies. So it's not like one vitamin, it's not always methylated B6 or something like that.

• 1:58:22Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:58:22Andrew D. Huberman?

  Or, excuse me, it's not always B6 or B12.

• 1:58:24Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:58:25Andrew D. Huberman?

  But they found these, you know, clusters of patients that had major depression that were deficient in particular B vitamin. They supplemented back the B vitamin and low and behold, those patients showed remission of their of their depression. So one could, you know, conveniently conclude, oh, well, all depression is a B vitamin deficiency. But of course, that's not true, right? More likely depression, like fever, is just a raw description of symptoms.

• 1:58:51Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:58:52Andrew D. Huberman?

  But what was so exciting about this talk, to me anyway, was that people were starting to look at nutritional deficiencies as a potential source of mental illness.

• 1:59:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:59:01Andrew D. Huberman?

  Which now has a bit more traction, but at the time was like, whoa, what are we really saying here? I thought all of depression was a serotonin deficiency, right? This kind of thing. So when you talk about NAD having these transformative effects and the fact that NAD can kind of raise the tide on a number of different biological processes, to me, it makes perfect sense. It might have kicked off some mitochondrial pathway or some cell some cellular pathway that then fills in a blank that's desperately needed. Is that is that one way that we can conceptualize this?

• 1:59:28Speaker 01

  That makes total sense to me.

• 1:59:29Andrew D. Huberman?

  Okay.

• 1:59:30Speaker 01

  I like how you described it.

• 1:59:31Andrew D. Huberman?

  So how often do you encourage your already healthy patients to do NAD infusions? What are the dosages? I should mention that NAD infusions for most people are a little bit costly.

• 1:59:41Speaker 01

  They are costly.

• 1:59:42Andrew D. Huberman?

  They're like anywhere from.

• 1:59:44Speaker 01

  Five hundred to a thousand dollars. Or more. Yeah. Or more. Yeah. If you're in Los Angeles. Yeah. So assuming someone has the means. Yeah, so here's what we found, and again, just founded by treating a lot of people and learning is we do a loading dose for most people. We found the sweet spot to be 750 milligrams. Intravenous. Intravenous. When they, when they were doing NAD in the nineties and they were doing it for substance abuse, so alcohol, pain medicine, you know, morphine. They used it for that? That's where it came from, actually. It was in the nineties, people traveling to Mexico for NAD infusions. That, that protocol was 10 straight days of intravenous NAD. Yep. The dose they used was 3,000 milligrams. 3,000 milligrams? Yeah, and that's why it took six to eight to 10 hours per infusion.

• 2:00:28Speaker 01

  You could not get through it. Putting 500 milligrams in over the course of 45 minutes is gonna be very uncomfortable. Many people take it anti-nausea med. So I'll tell you about that. So that, that comes from, so there was a gentleman in the States in 2006, lived in Louisiana. He had a pain medicine addiction. Went to Mexico, got the NAD protocol, changed his life. He then licensed the use of the only injectable NAD product, which was from a South African company at the time, brought it to the United States, opened a clinic in Atlanta. All he did was addiction. And I got to know him because I'm in Charleston, not too far, involved in IV work. He was not a physician. I don't remember the time, but he came to me and said, hey, I need some help because I'm getting a lot of questions about this NAD stuff. And so he handed me the original protocol.

• 2:01:13Speaker 01

  I mean, I'm super grateful and fortunate, but what I realized is no one has time to spend six to eight to 10 hours in someone's office. You know, they may do that once, but they're not doing it more than once. So we started trialing, you know, different dosages, 250, 500, 750,000, on up. And I just found collectively by watching people, and how they did, 750 milligrams was a sweet spot, meaning they'd get the benefits, which we can talk about, but then they could get through it in an hour or two hours. And that was meaningful. And then we found that we don't need 10 straight days. That's too much. That just is crazy. We found that five treatments in 10 days, again, afforded people. The ability to have great benefits, which were uniform, probably 95% of people who do

• 2:01:57Speaker 01

  a loading dose will come back and tell you their brain is getting bigger, they feel more creative, they have an elevated mood, they can sleep less but have more energy, colors look brighter, languaging is easier. I mean, this is all very real. So I think it affects the nervous system first, just because of the concentration of the mitochondria for every single neuron in the body. The physical components, meaning, you know, recovery and helping with physical exercise, those come, but I think they come later. And so we settled on 750 milligrams, we set it on the, you know, loading dose. And then what I noticed is that people were coming back between three and four weeks saying, hey, I don't feel as good as I did after I did that loading dose. And so we started doing a once a month maintenance dose. And that is what we still recommend to today. Some people will do less

• 2:02:40Speaker 01

  and some people do more. I have some people who do it once a week. But plenty of people do it once a month and then some people do it quarterly, some people do it whenever they can. On average, once a month seems to work really well for people. Then during the pandemic, and realizing this is growing, because again, we train practices, kind of in the medicine that we practice, we've trained 300, 350 practices and kind of give them the playbook, so to speak. People weren't coming to the office as much with COVID. So we started doing it subcutaneously. And actually, that's worked out really well. We'll do 100 milligrams subcutaneously, again, five days on, take two days off. You get a little bit of that stomach cramping from the 100-milligram injection. Like you said, can't really be absorbed well orally, not going to really work, so you're going to have to inject it or infuse

• 2:03:24Speaker 01

  it. Agreed, there's a price point here, right? It's going to cost money. But like most things, it's, you know, it's, to me, if I had to pick one thing for people, engaging in NAD would be it.

• 2:03:38Andrew D. Huberman?

  Really?

• 2:03:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, I would.

• 2:03:39Andrew D. Huberman?

  Of all the things we've discussed.

• 2:03:40Speaker 01

  Of all the things, I've just been so impressed over the years. Now peptides are amazing, not to knock peptides, peptides, there's so many peptides and I will get there, right? Because you can take this peptide for the nervous system, this peptide for the immune system. But collectively, one agent, one thing, it's NAD has been the most impactful from where I sit, working with patients.

• 2:04:01Andrew D. Huberman?

  Well, that's a significant statement. So 100mg injected subcutaneously. You get a little bit of stomach cramping.

• 2:04:07Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:04:08Andrew D. Huberman?

  As compared to the 500mg to 750 or 1000mg that one brings in IV. The fastest I've ever dripped it in was, I think, like 40 minutes.

• 2:04:18Speaker 01

  I can tell you the record.

• 2:04:20Andrew D. Huberman?

  What's the record?

• 2:04:21Speaker 01

  3 minutes and 26 seconds.

• 2:04:22Andrew D. Huberman?

  Is that you?

• 2:04:23Speaker 01

  No, no, no, no, no.

• 2:04:24Andrew D. Huberman?

  For 500mg?

• 2:04:26Speaker 01

  750mg. Two separate people did it. 500cc of saline. 3 minutes, 26 seconds. It's insane.

• 2:04:34Andrew D. Huberman?

  Yeah, I don't recommend it.

• 2:04:35Speaker 01

  No, no, we wouldn't allow it to happen. It's too much. It's, you've got to have a lot of experience with it.

• 2:04:40Andrew D. Huberman?

  Yeah, I found that because you have to sit there for a while, you could think, okay, well, do you organize the, you know, the plumbing correctly that you could type or something, but you feel

• 2:04:50Speaker 01

  It's hard.

• 2:04:50Andrew D. Huberman?

  garbage enough during the infusion that you, like, you get irritable. It's actually a very interesting window into empathy for people who have pain.

• 2:05:01Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 2:05:02Andrew D. Huberman?

  You know, when you're in this kind of whole body, kind of systemic pain and discomfort and you're getting that saliva, I'm kind of sensing it now. I have a distinct memory of this. Kind of like for people that get seasick, you think about being on a boat and walking back and forth. Get a little nauseous. Someone would walk in the room and you're like, God, why are they walking like that?

• 2:05:20Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:05:20Andrew D. Huberman?

  You know, and it's your own, it's your sense of pain. I normally don't have that response to people. I'm not a moody person in general, but then, you know, when you remove the infusion, you feel great and all of a sudden, people seem delightful, the irritating person. It's a very interesting experiment in, in social empathy.

• 2:05:38Speaker 01

  It is, and it's, this is just what I postulate is that a lot of people are challenged because a lot of people are numb to the world they live in. They don't feel things. And when you do NAD, there is nothing like that experience and that feeling. And so you are going to just psychologically say, something is changing inside of me. And it's something powerful because it's when I receive it, it's a lot. And to your point, what we do is we have a kind of an IV room where we have like eight chairs. And we make it social because when you're talking to people and learning about their experiencing it, it's there's actually a lot of healing that occurs just from that community.

• 2:06:14Andrew D. Huberman?

  That's a bonding experiment.

• 2:06:15Speaker 01

  It is, yeah.

• 2:06:18Andrew D. Huberman?

  For people that can't afford the infusions, the injections would be the next best bet. If they can't afford those, would it be the sublingual NMN or NR?

• 2:06:26Speaker 01

  I think so. I think the NMN. I would choose over NR.

• 2:06:29Andrew D. Huberman?

  Yeah, so going from most expensive to least expensive, most expensive would be IV. Then it would be subcutaneous. Then it would be NR and then it would be a sublingual NMN.

• 2:06:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, okay, that's about right. I mean, you could do NAD topically. It's a little bit wild card doing it topically. You could do it under your, yeah.

• 2:06:50Andrew D. Huberman?

  The interferetic patches, those give me a really terrible.

• 2:06:53Speaker 01

  The problem is the patch.

• 2:06:54Andrew D. Huberman?

  I get this itchy thing.

• 2:06:55Speaker 01

  It's the patch. It's adhesive. It's too strong. And lots of people get irritated. Their skin gets irritated. I think the NAD gets in well, but the the patch itself is a hindrance, obstacle.

• 2:07:06Andrew D. Huberman?

  And for those that are listening to this and they may recall, I did an episode of this podcast with Dr. Peter Attia, where we talked about NAD and NMN and NR. And that was mainly focused on the the research literature. You're not going to find much, you know, so what we're talking about here is clinical experience.

• 2:07:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm a full disclosure, I'm a clinician through and through. So my experience is observing people and.

• 2:07:30Andrew D. Huberman?

  You're interested in what works.

• 2:07:32Speaker 01

  Well, and I but I but, you know, I'm confident about it because I've done a lot of it. You know, I've seen a lot of, you know, how peptides work because we've done a lot of it. This NAD because we've overseen again, a lot of NAD here and in London, all over and the providers we work with. So we get a lot of feedback about what works and what doesn't work, you know.

• 2:07:53Andrew D. Huberman?

  Speaking of clinicians and science and all of this, there are a couple of other peptides that have received FDA approval that are commonly in use, things like PT141, which is in this melanocyte hormone pathway that's used. One of its FDA-approved uses is, I think the brand name is Vilese, is for female hypo libido. So it stimulates libido in women. It's also used to stimulate libido in men, is that right?

• 2:08:26Speaker 01

  Can be, and it can be helpful for, it's like a neurogenic mechanism for erectile dysfunction.

• 2:08:32Andrew D. Huberman?

  So it's not just related to blood flow?

• 2:08:34Speaker 01

  It's not, actually. It's not, and PT141, yeah, like a fragment or derivative of the peptide melanetan, which stimulates alpha melanocyte stimulating hormone, which, you know, is becoming more in play, I guess, in the environment I operate in just because of mold toxicity. And we think of mold toxicity being a biotoxin and hitting, you know, MSH being kind of the general in terms of a lot of these hormonal pathways, actually. And melanetan can bolster by putting out more melanocyte stimulating hormone. It seems to bolster immune response. I think there's an element with energy, too. The downside of melanetan is it stimulates melanocytes. So you're going to get this tanning. And it's not like a, it's like an orange-looking tanning.

• 2:09:20Andrew D. Huberman?

  From the inside out.

• 2:09:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, you see it, you recognize it. So PT141, what they found is in rats, I think it was, female rats were copulating more when they got this compound. And they're like, oh, cool, and let's try it in humans. And it's led to that. Our trouble with it is a very small or narrow therapeutic window. And if you give too much, you're going to get nauseous pretty quickly. And some people don't like, particularly women, don't like that tanning look.

• 2:09:45Andrew D. Huberman?

  It can look very unnatural.

• 2:09:48Speaker 01

  Unnatural is the word.

• 2:09:49Andrew D. Huberman?

  Yeah, the medial pituitary, which at least my understanding is the origin of these peptides that we're talking about now is super interesting. And you mentioned the nausea. These peptides hit multiple pathways. When we had Dr. Zachary Knight from University of California, San Francisco on to talk about GLP-1 in a lot of detail. He mentioned that, you know, some of the nausea associated with Ozempic and Monjaro and things like that relates to the fact that there's You know, there are receptors for these things, not just in one hypothalamic structure, but also in like area postrema and areas of the of the brain that are these quote unquote primitive areas that are associated with generating nausea when you need to rid yourself of a poison that, you know, nature conveniently engineered us with with neurons

• 2:10:34Andrew D. Huberman?

  that when they detect chemical changes in the blood, make us vomit.

• 2:10:37Speaker 01

  Yeah. And but to touch on that is what we found is if we start with a, we're going to microdose and go slowly with the GLP ones, the nausea is virtually unheard of. Not saying it doesn't occur, but it's super rare if you just take your time with it. I think when people have most problems, they're doing, they're shotgunning the dose, essentially. You're overwhelming your system.

• 2:10:57Andrew D. Huberman?

  So I have two more questions. The first one is a bit of a controversial one.

• 2:11:01Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 2:11:04Andrew D. Huberman?

  Today, we've talked about a lot of peptides that you've observed incredible clinical utility for. We also talked about a lot of peptides that the FDA has banned, basically, to be blunt. We've also talked about peptides that at one point not too long ago, were considered part of kind of niche culture, like fitness or bodybuilding culture that are now approaching what will probably be trillion dollar industries over the next 10 years. Things like GLP one agonists. So any listener with their neurons firing, we'll put two and two together and say, okay, what's the deal? Obviously, the FDA, I like to believe, has a genuine interest in our safety. They don't want us taking things that are dangerous

• 2:11:48Andrew D. Huberman?

  for us. At the same time, there seems to be a kind of clawing back of what's out there and then handing off to pharmaceutical companies to put out compounds for which there are tremendous profit margins. I mean, the profit margins on these are insane.

• 2:12:04Speaker 01

  We can't comprehend it.

• 2:12:05Andrew D. Huberman?

  You can't comprehend it. So, you know, MK677, I crossed out, right? FDA grabbed that one. Thymosin alpha one crossed out. Okay, a bunch of other things that have been, BBC 157.

• 2:12:20Andrew D. Huberman?

  Clawed back. So how should we frame this in our mind? In other words, do you think that the FDA has genuine good intentions of trying to protect the general public and that's why they're doing this? Or is this a plan to kind of make that appear to be the case so that these can then be sold at a very, very high profit margin? And perhaps it could be both, right? It's not an either or. And I want to be very clear, you know, I work at a major medical school, but I'll speak freely anyway, right? You know, as would my colleagues. Like, I like to think that these governing bodies have some people there, at least with very good intentions.

• 2:12:58Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 2:12:59Andrew D. Huberman?

  I don't think it's a bunch of bad people, like riding their hands together with getting kickbacks on pharmaceuticals. I don't believe that. In fact, I know that not to be the case. But like, what's really going on here? Because this is kind of weird. There's this huge class of compounds we call peptides that clearly have immensely beneficial uses in the right dosage, in the right hands, with the right physicians. They're being clawed back. Why?

• 2:13:21Speaker 01

  It's confusing. I think it's probably both. I think, you know, I would say that unfortunately, a lot of times when the government acts, they overreach, right? Like, I do think they probably have good intentions. I think there's probably sound reasons to want to have oversight of things that seemingly is the wild, wild west, right? And there's truth to that, right? Because peptides came on the scene and people started using them, they're recommended here and there, people could get them from, still can, research companies. And there's not a lot of corralling of understanding, well, what is going on? So I'm sure there's an element to like, hey, let's understand this better. But on that side, I think they went too far, right?

• 2:14:05Speaker 01

  Because I think if you really look at data, or if you were really interested in that, there's ways to understand how things work without removing them from the marketplace.

• 2:14:17Speaker 01

  So the other side of me is like, just like we're talking about Ozempic and monjorno, semaglutide and terzepatide are blockbuster drugs. If you're a pharmaceutical company and you see that there's 15 to 20 other peptides, which are really working and really working, because again, we've just seen the clinical response over and over and over. It's not a large leap to think, hey, if we're a pharmaceutical company, what if we turn that peptide which was available to the commoner, for lack of a better term, into a drug?

• 2:14:51Andrew D. Huberman?

  Like Vilese, that was done for melanocyte stimulating hormone pathways.

• 2:14:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, and so I'm sure, I think it's both. You know, I think, and that's why I go back to, we have to operate within certain boundaries, right? Like, that's, that's great, we have to understand those boundaries. It would be, and I, and I say this sincerely, I don't, when we're talking about healthcare and we're talking about people's health, we're not even close to talking about the truth for most things, right? We're not talking about why people get chronic disease. We're not talking about how our food is really over-processed and the availability of high quality of nutrients and what that means. We're not talking about all the toxicities. We just look at Roundup, glyphosate and its interference with so many pathways in the body and people say, you know, and Monsanto and whoever runs that now saying it's so safe and it's just not true.

• 2:15:41Speaker 01

  So I think it's in line with, and what I support is unfortunately and fortunately, as an individual, you have to be your own best advocate. You can't rely on someone to say, particularly the government, that you have permission or not permission to do this. You think it's best for people to do their own research, you know, seek out reliable information, right? Start here. I mean, you guys vet so much stuff, very safe place for people to be like, this is where I want to start. And then life is, you, you learn by exploring and seeing what works for you. It's like, you start with a recipe to cook, right? But some people like it saltier, some people like it spicier. You gotta see what works best for you. And that's why I seek out other people, people like myself, other physicians, other people

• 2:16:24Speaker 01

  who have experience saying, hey, we'll help you, guide you in this. And that's where the magic happens. But to be honest, we're not being truthful on many levels when we talk about health. We're just not, we spend so much money. For what? We're not making a dent in chronic disease. We're not making an impact. We're not helping people lead better lives. You know, medicine is great for life and death things. It really is. You know, I, in 2000, in August of 2020, I had terrible abdominal pain. I'd just come back from visiting our friends in Hawaii. I kind of tried to treat myself unsuccessfully. Eventually, it was on Labor Day. I had so much pain the next day. Called my friend who's a radiologist, said I need to do a CAT scan. I did the CAT scan. He called me on the way back to the office.

• 2:17:08Speaker 01

  I had a blood clot in the vein going to my liver that had completely cut off. I almost died. Like, it was really serious. Said I could be hospitalized. I'm on blood thinners now. I am forever grateful for pharmaceuticals. Saved my life, right? But those same medicines aren't probably going to help me lead my best life, right? And there's, it's, it's challenging. Having been educated in a very formal, conventional medical system, which is dominated by the pharmaceutical industry, is a problem. Right? We go back to the Flexner Report, which is like 1917, 1915 or something, where they studied medical education and basically said, if you're in medical school and you're not promoting pharmaceuticals and in line, and we're going to kick out

• 2:17:50Speaker 01

  alternative remedies and modalities like chiropractic and acupuncture nutrition, they don't count anymore. And that's where we are. The only thing that matters, and we see it as a society, we're deemed healthy by the pills we take. Right? If we're going to be really honest, those pills aren't making us healthy. And by and large, they're not even making us well anymore. You know what I mean? And so I think it's time, and it's wonderful to have this forum to be able to talk about, like, and this is why I support so many other people talking about it. Like, we need to make a change in that. We need to start being honest about what we're doing. Our health is not going to be coming from doctors saying, taking this pill or that potion. It's not, not at this stage. And it's more likely that people are going to feel healthy from seeing their trainer in their gym. Right?

• 2:18:34Speaker 01

  These, why these things go to the gray market or black market. Because people actually get results. You know what I mean? And it's just sad, but true. And so to answer your question, I think it's both. I think the pharmaceutical companies are greedy. I think they like making money. Right? I think they also like helping people. Right? They want to help people, but it comes with a big cost. And the government's there to kind of corral that. But like most things the government does, they go too far. Right? And I think we need to be honest about those discussions. And it's not threatening and it's not harmful. Just to be saying, hey, how do we make this better? And how do we even agree to disagree? Let's just start there.

• 2:19:13Andrew D. Huberman?

  I really appreciate your take. I too rely on prescription drugs now and again. I don't know, maybe I'll lose some following for saying this, but like I've had some, some situations where it made sense to like take an antibiotic like after a surgery or something or like I'm not, I'm not like anti antibiotics. Right? I also don't take, I also don't eat them like M and Ms. I also believe that, well, everything you said, I, I generally agree with. I don't have the clinical expertise or the nuance to really understand these governing bodies. That's one of the reasons why I'm asking today and really appreciate you shedding light on this. I think you're, you're clearly a truth teller. You're telling us your truth from the clinical perspective, but it's clear you also have

• 2:19:55Andrew D. Huberman?

  a broad, broad optics here. And we appreciate that.

• 2:20:00Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 2:20:00Andrew D. Huberman?

  Yeah. This podcast has always been about bringing diverse outlooks on the same things. And it's been wonderful today to be able to explore peptides, NAD and, and this issue of FDA approval and FDA removal, as the case may be. You said something earlier, a couple of times that I'd like to finish up on. You talked about positive thoughts.

• 2:20:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:20:25Andrew D. Huberman?

  You're a physician.

• 2:20:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:20:27Andrew D. Huberman?

  Not a psychologist.

• 2:20:28Speaker 01

  No.

• 2:20:28Andrew D. Huberman?

  But you're a physician and you're in the business of making people feel better. And it's clear to me that among your many talents, you have great powers of observation. So what is this thing about positive thoughts? I mean, there are a lot of neuro immunological data out there showing that, you know, stress makes us sick. If we stress too long for you repeatedly for two, for too long, stress in the short period is actually good for us. Right?

• 2:20:56Andrew D. Huberman?

  There are some data showing that positive thoughts can enhance immune system function, et cetera. The data are pretty cool. Clinically, however, what's your observation about mindset and health?

• 2:21:08Speaker 01

  I think we're just scratching the surface, and I think it is the most profound way to affect your life, right? So there's a couple of things I'll say about it. One, no good has ever come from a negative thought. Nothing ever good has come from a negative thought. And because all of us have a choice about every decision we make, to me, it's always best to make a, to slant that decision in a positive frame. Now, it doesn't mean you're fake about it, right? People really suffer. People really go, I mean, it is a very stressful time right now, maybe the most stressful time in human history. And there's no need to gloss over it and saying life is, you know, peaches and cream because it's not for a lot of people. But what I know just personally and professionally

• 2:21:54Speaker 01

  is that when you start pivoting towards positivity, you get more positivity, right? And all of us, every single human has that opportunity to do that. That some people, it's way harder choices. They are dealt a much more challenging and difficult hand, lots of people. But if we think about it, we didn't get to choose our eye color. We didn't choose, get to choose our family. We didn't get to choose where we were born or how we were brought up. But we do get to choose how we respond to those things. And so what I've learned is the more, there's never enough positivity I can exude. There's never enough positivity I can be around, ever in my life. It is just the most amazing thing, and it can never be taken from you, right? And so when we talk about success

• 2:22:36Speaker 01

  and longevity and health span, to me, positivity has to be a part of that because the mindset of positivity will override almost everything, literally. And, and I can't tell you how that happens on a biochemical or physiologic basis, but I know it to be a truth. I know it in the core of my being, that the more positive I am, the more I can influence other peoples and plant seeds and help people be more positive. And that is something that I cherish and just love, and it's not talked about enough. You know, specifically as a physician, we're talking about the science and, oh, this study and, you know, putting people on this medicine.

• 2:23:17Speaker 01

  But really, the value, and I made this decision back in 2010 because I had my own practice, and I decided to stop taking insurance. And it wasn't, it wasn't a money thing. It wasn't like, oh, it was because I was no longer valuable, taking five to seven minutes with each person and seeing 40 patients a day. And for me, I felt like I'm not fulfilling my purpose here when I'm just writing prescriptions, that my purpose will be fulfilled if I can really have conversations where I get to know people. And peptides and NAD tie into that because they are gateways to build trust with me so that I can actually help you, an individual, learn how to be more positive and to slant yourself and have that posture. Because ultimately, all of us need the energy and want the energy

• 2:24:02Speaker 01

  to find our purpose, right? And once you find that purpose, oh my goodness, life gets magical, right? Because we're all unique. We all have a different DNA structure. God gave us that, to be unique, to shine our light, to contribute, to help others. Most people don't know about that because they're in pain, or they're tired, or whatever they're suffering. And if we can help walk people through that and help them heal that, that's going to get really good. And that's, that's just what I enjoy doing.

• 2:24:33Andrew D. Huberman?

  Beautifully said, and so grateful to you for doing that within your clinical practice, for making that decision a few years back to shift over to being aligned with your purpose and, and the way that you've now expanded your practice to public education. We'll provide links to your practice and to your public education efforts, and for coming here to do this significant public education effort about peptides and other compounds and regulatory bodies, and also just the field of medicine, and also just, you know, I think so often we hear from scientists or from physicians, and we forget the human component. And what's, what's so, what's so beautiful about what you do and the way

• 2:25:16Andrew D. Huberman?

  you do it is that your humanity really comes through.

• 2:25:19Speaker 01

  I appreciate that.

• 2:25:20Andrew D. Huberman?

  So it really does. I can tell you really care, and I know our listeners and viewers can tell as well. So

• 2:25:26Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 2:25:27Andrew D. Huberman?

  As this field evolves and advances, please come back and talk to us again.

• 2:25:32Speaker 01

  Would love to.

• 2:25:33Andrew D. Huberman?

  Meanwhile, again, we'll provide links so that people can find you and some of the resources that

• 2:25:39Andrew D. Huberman?

  Back up what we've discussed today and Craig, Dr. Conover, thank you ever so much.

• 2:25:44Speaker 01

  Well, thank you, Andrew. No, it's really, I'm so honored to be here. I respect and love the work you're doing and the light you're shining and you're helping so many. You have such a wide audience that, you know, trust you and it's amazing. Like I said, I see it every day with people coming to me and bouncing what you do and saying, hey, is this good for me? And it's, that is amazing. I love that. That's how we get better, right? We help support each other. And I just appreciate what you're doing and being here is truly an honor, really a big deal for me. So, thank you.

• 2:26:17Andrew D. Huberman?

  Thank you. I'll take that in and right back at you.

• 2:26:19Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 2:26:20Andrew D. Huberman?

  Come back again.

• 2:26:21Speaker 01

  I appreciate it.

• 2:26:21Andrew D. Huberman?

  I appreciate you.

• 2:26:22Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 2:26:23Andrew D. Huberman?

  Thank you for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Craig Conover. To learn more about his work and his clinic, as well as to find links to some of the things discussed in today's episode, please see the show note captions. And if you'd like to learn more about peptides, including some of the ones that we discussed today, but also some additional ones, please see the link to the solo episode that I did about peptide therapies in the captions. If you're learning from and are enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel. That's a terrific zero cost way to support us. In addition, please subscribe to the podcast on both Spotify and Apple. And on both Spotify and Apple, you can leave us up to a five star review. Please check out the sponsors mentioned at the beginning and throughout today's episode. That's the best way to support this podcast.

• 2:27:06Andrew D. Huberman?

  If you have questions for me or comments about the podcast, or guests or topics that you'd like me to consider for the Huberman Lab podcast, please put those in the comments section on YouTube. I do read all the comments. For those of you that haven't heard, I have a new book coming out. It's my very first book. It's entitled Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body. This is a book that I've been working on for more than five years and that's based on more than 30 years of research and experience. And it covers protocols for everything from sleep, To exercise, to stress control, protocols related to focus and motivation. And of course, I provide the scientific substantiation for the protocols that are included. The book is now available by pre-sale at protocolsbook.com. There you can find links to various vendors. You can pick the one that you like best.

• 2:27:51Andrew D. Huberman?

  Again, the book is called Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body. If you're not already following me on social media, I am Huberman Lab on all social media platforms. So that's Instagram, X, formerly known as Twitter, Threads, Facebook, and LinkedIn. And on all those platforms, I discuss science and science-related tools, some of which overlaps with the content of the Huberman Lab podcast, but much of which is distinct from the content on the Huberman Lab podcast. Again, that's Huberman Lab on all social media channels. If you haven't already subscribed to our neural network newsletter, our neural network newsletter is a zero-cost monthly newsletter that includes podcast summaries as well as protocols in the form of brief, one- to-three-page PDFs. Those protocol PDFs are on things like neural plasticity and learning,

• 2:28:33Andrew D. Huberman?

  optimizing dopamine, improving your sleep, deliberate cold exposure, deliberate heat exposure. We have a foundational fitness protocol that describes a template routine that includes cardiovascular training and resistance training with sets and reps, all backed by science, and all of which, again, is completely zero cost. To subscribe, simply go to hubermanlab.com. Go to the menu tab up in the upper right corner, scroll down to newsletter, and provide your email. And I should emphasize that we do not share your email with anybody. Thank you once again for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Craig Conover. And last, but certainly not least, thank you for your interest in science.